:00:40. > :00:52.Good afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:53. > :00:54.Following Monday night's terrorist attack in the heart of Manchester,
:00:55. > :00:57.the UK terror threat level has been raised to its highest
:00:58. > :00:59.meaning more attacks may be imminent.
:01:00. > :01:02.It means military personnel will now be deployed to protect key sites
:01:03. > :01:04.including Buckingham Palace and Downing Street.
:01:05. > :01:06.Election campaigning is suspended for a second day
:01:07. > :01:15.we will be reporting on the events in Manchester.
:01:16. > :01:18.The bomber, Salman Abedi killed 22 people and injured 64
:01:19. > :01:21.many of the injured are still in critical care.
:01:22. > :01:23.Police have arrested three men in Manchester this morning.
:01:24. > :01:32.The bomber's 23-year-old brother was arrested yesterday.
:01:33. > :01:35.Flowers have been laid and tributes have been paid to the 22 people
:01:36. > :01:46.killed in the attack at Manchester Arena.
:01:47. > :01:49.Eight of the victims are known to be Saffie Rose Roussos, Olivia
:01:50. > :01:51.Campbell, Lisa Lees, Jane Tweddle-Taylor, Martyn Hett, John
:01:52. > :01:53.Atkinson, Georgina Callander and Kelly Brewster. The Polish Foreign
:01:54. > :01:54.Minister has said that a Polish couple who went missing after the
:01:55. > :02:06.attack are among those killed. Thousands of people turned out
:02:07. > :02:08.for the vigil in Manchester yesterday evening and to hold
:02:09. > :02:10.a minute's silence to Home Secretary Amber Rudd,
:02:11. > :02:15.Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn and Commons Speaker John Bercow
:02:16. > :02:18.stood on stage alongside Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham
:02:19. > :02:38.and Greater Manchester Police Chief This morning members of the cabinet
:02:39. > :02:40.met as the Prime Minister Theresa May again chaired COBRA, the
:02:41. > :02:44.government's crisis response committee.
:02:45. > :02:47.Chris Philips, former head of the National Counter Terrorism Security
:02:48. > :02:54.office, will be with me throughout today. Welcome to the programme, the
:02:55. > :02:58.fallout from Manchester dominating everything, huge security
:02:59. > :03:02.investigation now under way. Where do you see... Where are we at? The
:03:03. > :03:07.most interesting point, the things that have not come out yet which are
:03:08. > :03:12.absolutely essential to know, it was this home-made explosive? If it was,
:03:13. > :03:21.then somewhere in the UK, there is a bomb factory that needs to be found.
:03:22. > :03:25.Was the device strapped to the person, a suicide bomb, or was this
:03:26. > :03:29.a dropped case, in which case, as may have been designed to be the
:03:30. > :03:35.first of a number, in which case, there are still bombs in the UK
:03:36. > :03:40.somewhere. Unlike 77, backpacks, I think, they had them on their back,
:03:41. > :03:47.I have seen pictures, or at least mock-ups, recreations, suggesting
:03:48. > :03:51.this suicide bomber had a suitcase. -- 7/7. I have seen the same, I do
:03:52. > :03:54.not know if that is fact or opinion, I have not heard any thing from the
:03:55. > :03:59.police, its changes totally the way that this investigation will go. It
:04:00. > :04:03.was quite obvious to me straightaway that this was not a one-man band who
:04:04. > :04:08.has done this, there must be a group behind it, but whether this person
:04:09. > :04:14.was going to drop the case and walk away, in which in which situation we
:04:15. > :04:17.would have potentially a number of other cases ready to be dropped. We
:04:18. > :04:23.will go through this in detail with you and others later. Am I right in
:04:24. > :04:27.assuming, because, as you say, security services think this was not
:04:28. > :04:31.just a lone wolf operation, that he had help, and that help is still out
:04:32. > :04:35.there, but that is why the security alert is now up at the highest
:04:36. > :04:40.critical level? I said yesterday, if the level goes up to critical, then
:04:41. > :04:45.for sure, they are chasing other people. When you get a situation
:04:46. > :04:48.like this, if it is a home-made explosive, absolutely no way that
:04:49. > :04:53.one person can do that, it takes a lot of work, you have to get the
:04:54. > :04:56.ingredients, you have to get the understanding of how to do it and I
:04:57. > :05:00.don't think there is anything that says this would have been a one-man
:05:01. > :05:14.band. We will be going through a lot of that in the next hour.
:05:15. > :05:16.This morning's newspapers all have pictures of the young victims on
:05:17. > :05:28.their front pages. The Sun's headline is 'Pure Evil'
:05:29. > :05:31.with a picture of the youngest victim Saffie Roussosa alongside the
:05:32. > :05:34.bomber Salman Abedi. The Guardian again has eight year old Saffie and
:05:35. > :05:40.a picture of the first victim to be named, Georgina Callander. The Daily
:05:41. > :05:44.Mail has the same two girls with the headline 'soldiers on the streets'
:05:45. > :05:49.And The Times looks at the links Salman Abedi had with Libya. The
:05:50. > :05:51.Telegraph looks at the raising of the terror threat level and reports
:05:52. > :05:53.that we will be seeing troops on the streets. And finally the Mirror has
:05:54. > :05:59.the headline 'killed by evil'. Well last night the Prime Minister
:06:00. > :06:01.announced that the independent body, the Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre
:06:02. > :06:04.had decided to raise the terror threat from "critical" to "severe"
:06:05. > :06:07.for the first time since June 2007. This means an attack
:06:08. > :06:20.may be imminent. This morning I said that the joint
:06:21. > :06:24.terrorism analysis Centre, the independent organisation responsible
:06:25. > :06:26.for setting the threat level on the basis of intelligence available was
:06:27. > :06:34.keeping the threat level under constant review. It has now
:06:35. > :06:36.concluded on the basis of today's investigations that the threat level
:06:37. > :06:43.should be increased for the time being, from severe to critical. This
:06:44. > :06:46.means their assessment is not only that an attack remains highly
:06:47. > :07:00.likely, but that a further attack may be imminent. The Prime Minister
:07:01. > :07:03.last night. And this morning Home Secretary Amber Rudd gave more
:07:04. > :07:05.detail on what we can expect to see with the increased threat level.
:07:06. > :07:09.Good progress has been made with a number of arrests overnight and that
:07:10. > :07:14.will continue. We have now gone to a critical level in terms of the
:07:15. > :07:18.threat. Operation Tempora has been invoked, that means there will be
:07:19. > :07:22.additional military personnel coming to backfill the armed police
:07:23. > :07:28.officers, so that they can support other areas. Today we have 984
:07:29. > :07:32.members of the military coming forward, as requested by the police.
:07:33. > :07:35.They will be initially deployed in London but also in the rest of the
:07:36. > :07:47.country as requested, and they will perform an important part of the
:07:48. > :07:52.defence going forward. Let's take a look in more detail at what the new
:07:53. > :07:55.threat level means. "Critical" is the highest terrorist threat level
:07:56. > :07:57.that the UK can face. As the Prime Minister said, it means that a
:07:58. > :07:59.further attack may be imminent, in the view of security and police
:08:00. > :08:02.experts. We had previously been on the second highest threat level,
:08:03. > :08:04.which is called "severe". Using the critical threat level is unusual -
:08:05. > :08:20.it's only been used twice before, once in 2006 and once in 2007.
:08:21. > :08:23.The PM said the police, as a result, had asked for military assistance
:08:24. > :08:25.in guarding key sites around the country.
:08:26. > :08:27.These locations include the House of Commons, Buckingham Palace
:08:28. > :08:30.It also means that the police will be given
:08:31. > :08:32.extra resources to deal with the critical threat level.
:08:33. > :08:34.The terrorist threat level is set by the Joint
:08:35. > :08:37.Terrorism Analysis Centre, which draws on expertise from the
:08:38. > :08:40.The decision to deploy troops is for the government.
:08:41. > :08:42.The Home Secretary Amber Rudd stressed this morning
:08:43. > :08:44.that the critical threat level was a "temporary arrangement"
:08:45. > :08:55.to respond to what she called an "exceptional event".
:08:56. > :08:57.And joining us now is Professor John Gearson, from the Centre for Defence
:08:58. > :09:06.Studies at King's College London... Welcome to the programme, in
:09:07. > :09:09.practice, what does moving to critical mean? For government
:09:10. > :09:14.buildings and public sector entities like universities and hospitals,
:09:15. > :09:18.there will be different security, more enhanced security, people will
:09:19. > :09:22.be called on to identify themselves in a way that they may not in every
:09:23. > :09:26.single building, the decision to deploy the military, this is outside
:09:27. > :09:31.the normal step up to severe, and in fact that is something that is going
:09:32. > :09:34.to attract some comments. Can I clarify, some people have assumed
:09:35. > :09:41.that because it went to critical, that means the military is deployed,
:09:42. > :09:45.that is not the case. Two separate decisions, saying that need to move
:09:46. > :09:49.to critical, that is an independent decision but then saying we need to
:09:50. > :09:55.deploy troops, that is a government decision. Military deployment is not
:09:56. > :10:00.linked, even going to critical, it could be chosen to support severe
:10:01. > :10:05.level. This has being driven not by in my opinion a long-term considered
:10:06. > :10:09.approach but essentially, a result of the Paris attacks, this policy of
:10:10. > :10:16.been able to called upon the military is a profound change in the
:10:17. > :10:19.attitude of the Ministry of Defence and the military. We began to see
:10:20. > :10:27.more and more French military on the streets, French cities and
:10:28. > :10:31.infrastructure. They say what is the meaning of an 18 month straight of
:10:32. > :10:35.emergency, with military in the streets, the French have criticised
:10:36. > :10:38.themselves for that, but Britain has been reluctant to use the military
:10:39. > :10:44.for a number of reasons which we cannot go into now. Appropriate,
:10:45. > :10:48.cautious use of the military is appropriate at a time of national
:10:49. > :10:54.emergency. If we want to call this a national emergency, and by calling
:10:55. > :10:58.this critical, they are saying this is something unusual. We have not
:10:59. > :11:02.designated this a national emergency officially. Unlike the French,
:11:03. > :11:06.President Francois Hollande, previous president, he declared a
:11:07. > :11:12.state of emergency and that state of emergency. That is right, many
:11:13. > :11:17.people thought that this is a mistake, the British approach is
:11:18. > :11:21.predicated on normality, things may be dangerous, but normal life is
:11:22. > :11:25.going to continue, on the other hand, when a suicide bomber, if it
:11:26. > :11:30.proves to be a suicide bomber, let's presume it is, even if it is in a
:11:31. > :11:34.suitcase, if a suicide bomber kills eight, nine, 10-year old, that is
:11:35. > :11:38.not normality, I can see why the government wants to respond, the
:11:39. > :11:42.question is whether the military do something useful, whether that be a
:11:43. > :11:46.presence on the street or not. Is the deployment of the military more
:11:47. > :11:49.than just symbolic? I think it is disappointing because it tells a
:11:50. > :11:54.story that the police do not have the resources to do the job we want
:11:55. > :11:57.them to do, once the police on the streets, and most police forces,
:11:58. > :12:00.most of the officers I speak with would say the resources are not
:12:01. > :12:04.there to maintain the number of officers on the streets,
:12:05. > :12:06.particularly with guns, his officers do not have enough officers they do
:12:07. > :12:10.not have enough officers that can carry guns to cover all the
:12:11. > :12:14.locations for a sustained period of time, that is why they need the
:12:15. > :12:18.military, disappointing we have got to that stage. It is your
:12:19. > :12:22.understanding as well that it is the police that asked the government for
:12:23. > :12:25.the military to step up, and help take the pressure of the armed
:12:26. > :12:32.guarding of sensitive sites. I would imagine that is the case, I think
:12:33. > :12:35.what the police want is actually the ability to respond, what that means
:12:36. > :12:39.is having the responders available, right across the country, actually,
:12:40. > :12:43.and what we do know is, actually, London has a pretty good response to
:12:44. > :12:47.armed incidents, the rest of the country not so much, and this has
:12:48. > :12:52.happened in the north-west of the country, this has not happened in
:12:53. > :12:56.London, constabularies in that area do not have the number of firearms
:12:57. > :13:00.officers available in London. You were saying this had gone to
:13:01. > :13:04.critical because it was clear that Salman Abedi had not been operating
:13:05. > :13:08.on his own, if that is the case, that means, in this police operation
:13:09. > :13:12.that is going on, they will be getting a wealth of the tail, it is
:13:13. > :13:17.not becoming public, obviously, quite rightly, but there is a tonne
:13:18. > :13:22.of stuff that they will be across. Hopefully, they have some history of
:13:23. > :13:26.this guy, they know who he is, they know who he has been playing with
:13:27. > :13:31.over the last six to 12 months. It is not clear that they do. That is
:13:32. > :13:36.one of the issues, and of course, we would expect them to keep this quiet
:13:37. > :13:41.at the moment, but at this moment, I would have expected to see quite a
:13:42. > :13:45.lot of arrests, crucially, the bomb factory, if this is a home-made
:13:46. > :13:48.explosive, that bomb factory is dangerous, something that when you
:13:49. > :13:53.make home-made explosives, it is extremely dangerous. And volatile.
:13:54. > :13:56.And it can go bang at any moment. The police will be wanting to get
:13:57. > :14:00.into that as quick as possible to make sure that other people are
:14:01. > :14:05.safe. We have seen people moved out of flats and houses to deal with
:14:06. > :14:09.that. With what we know so far about Salman Abedi, and his Libyan parents
:14:10. > :14:18.and background, what do you make of where we are, was this man... Was
:14:19. > :14:25.this man on the security radar, or was he to low-level? I am sceptic
:14:26. > :14:28.about the concept of a lone wolf, nobody is alone, everybody has
:14:29. > :14:31.connections that lead to the point at which they carry out violent
:14:32. > :14:34.attacks, the picture coming out this morning in the press and of easily
:14:35. > :14:37.it has not been confirmed by the government is a bit conflicting, on
:14:38. > :14:44.the one hand, a device that needs more than basic amateurish mixing of
:14:45. > :14:47.chemicals in a pot in a room and a desire to carry out a suicide
:14:48. > :14:51.attack, on the other hand, neighbours reporting going into the
:14:52. > :14:55.street and chanting prayers, growing a beard, doing the kind of
:14:56. > :14:57.operational security that no serious professional terrorist would do,
:14:58. > :15:01.they would be doing the opposite, they would not be chanting, they
:15:02. > :15:08.would be going out of their way to where Western clothes. We cannot
:15:09. > :15:12.ascribe brilliance to people until we know whether they were connected.
:15:13. > :15:19.To make a suicide bomb that works is actually quite difficult. I think,
:15:20. > :15:24.we saw on the 21st of July, 2005, that just by getting the fixture
:15:25. > :15:32.wrong, the devices did not work. That was the one that attempted to
:15:33. > :15:35.follow up 77. -- 7/7. Then we had the shooting of the Brazilian, Jean
:15:36. > :15:40.Charles de Menezes, during the pursuit of those people, by the way,
:15:41. > :15:42.they did not go down fighting, they surrendered, quite an interesting
:15:43. > :15:53.thing to remember about suicide bombing
:15:54. > :16:00.We know Abedi had just come back from Libya. We know he was chanting
:16:01. > :16:06.very loudly in Arabic, prayers and parts of the Koran. And I saw one
:16:07. > :16:10.report that said there was a black flag flying from the garden with
:16:11. > :16:18.Arabic script on it. Doesn't that alert anybody? Let's hope so. He had
:16:19. > :16:26.all the signs that should have been alerted. I read also that an imam
:16:27. > :16:30.saw him and said, I am worried about this guy. Did he tell the police?
:16:31. > :16:35.Have the neighbours told the police? Whilst this stuff may be happening,
:16:36. > :16:40.someone has to tell the police. That is the only way we can get involved.
:16:41. > :16:48.What do you make of it when you add what we know already to it? My
:16:49. > :16:52.speculation is that this individual did travel to Libya and had contact
:16:53. > :16:58.with people with links to Islamic State and may have had some
:16:59. > :17:06.training. But he does not seem to display the professional qualities
:17:07. > :17:09.we would expect. The question is, are there more bombs and people? Or
:17:10. > :17:14.are there these slightly volatile individuals who may or may not have
:17:15. > :17:18.had some connection and some training and the ability to do
:17:19. > :17:26.damage. French intelligence say he also went to Syria. We don't know if
:17:27. > :17:29.he was trained in Libya. We don't know what the connections of his
:17:30. > :17:33.father were. There are reports that he fell out with the Gaddafi regime
:17:34. > :17:38.and left. That was why they ended up in Britain. We will come to that
:17:39. > :17:42.later in the programme. But the Home Secretary said this morning that
:17:43. > :17:49.Salman Abedi, the suicide bomber, was known to the security services
:17:50. > :17:52."Up to a point". What does that mean? It probably means he may have
:17:53. > :17:57.had contact with somebody who was on a watchlist or may have been watched
:17:58. > :18:06.constantly by the security service. They have to make tough judgments
:18:07. > :18:12.every day in asking for resources. If you want to monitor somebody,
:18:13. > :18:20.especially in the current climate of encryption, we know the attacker
:18:21. > :18:23.Westminster was whatsapping before he drove his car across listeners to
:18:24. > :18:33.bridge. We don't have those messages yet. There is an ongoing discussion.
:18:34. > :18:40.The question is, do these people have the ability to be ahead of the
:18:41. > :18:47.security services? In this case, sadly, they did. And although this
:18:48. > :18:55.is a tragic event, it doesn't necessarily indicate, well, it's a
:18:56. > :19:02.failure of our counterterrorism efforts if anyone gets through, but
:19:03. > :19:06.it's not a failure of intelligence. In East Germany, more than 50% of
:19:07. > :19:17.the population were informing on the other 48%. There is that balance
:19:18. > :19:22.between over-securitising our lives and changing our normal life. There
:19:23. > :19:25.were reports that Abedi had links with the Libyan Islamic fighting
:19:26. > :19:29.group in the Manchester area and that they were in Whalley range, not
:19:30. > :19:39.far from where he lived in the Manchester area. They had raised
:19:40. > :19:41.funds and had even been convicted tangentially with the Didsbury
:19:42. > :19:50.mosque. We don't know that, but that is what reports say. But this group
:19:51. > :19:55.has been described in that area of Manchester as a hotbed for Islamic
:19:56. > :20:03.State. People watching this will be surprised that we in this country
:20:04. > :20:16.and don't seem to have done much about it. Exactly. Since the Islamic
:20:17. > :20:28.State has started acting as has in Libya and has committed all these
:20:29. > :20:31.terrorist attacks, I would hope it is being monitored. We have been
:20:32. > :20:33.through this before and the French have been through it even more times
:20:34. > :20:41.in recent years. Has anything changed as a result of this? Well,
:20:42. > :20:44.we are stopping most attacks, but terrorism is not stopped by security
:20:45. > :20:50.services. Individual acts of terrorism are, and they are very
:20:51. > :20:57.important. We ultimately have to go through the community and the policy
:20:58. > :21:01.of countering extremism generally. That is the long term, but the
:21:02. > :21:06.resources go into physical security. But we say this every time, that we
:21:07. > :21:15.have to do this after an attack, and yet 22 people were killed and almost
:21:16. > :21:21.60 were badly injured in Manchester again. It's about the hardest policy
:21:22. > :21:23.area you can have. It's about education, community cohesion and
:21:24. > :21:28.determined people in other countries planning attacks against us. No
:21:29. > :21:32.country has found an answer to this. More importantly, it's a dynamic
:21:33. > :21:37.problem. The mobilisation of people going to Syria and Libya were
:21:38. > :21:41.different people to the 2000 we were looking at a decade ago from
:21:42. > :21:47.Al-Qaeda. Some are the same, but it is a very traumatic problem, also
:21:48. > :21:49.for countries like France. Professor, thank you.
:21:50. > :21:52.Leaders around the world have been quick to declare solidarity
:21:53. > :21:59.Here's Ellie with a summary of how the world responded.
:22:00. > :22:07.In Paris, the lights turned off as a mark of respect. In New York, the
:22:08. > :22:15.Empire State Building, a skyline dimmed. And in Dubai, Geneva, Zagreb
:22:16. > :22:21.and Belfast too. The international gestures matched with words of
:22:22. > :22:27.solidarity from world leaders, and contempt for the terrorists. I will
:22:28. > :22:32.call them, from now on, losers, because that's what they are. They
:22:33. > :22:37.are losers. After phoning Theresa May, the French president walked to
:22:38. > :22:41.the British Embassy to sign a book of condolence. In Berlin, Chancellor
:22:42. > :22:47.Merkel said Germany stood shoulder to shoulder with Britain. Other
:22:48. > :22:52.world leaders took to social media to send their support to Britain,
:22:53. > :22:54.while President Putin sent a telegram to the Prime Minister,
:22:55. > :23:00.offering to increase counterterrorism cooperation. Like
:23:01. > :23:04.many European capitals, the EU flew its flags at half-mast in Brussels.
:23:05. > :23:08.And in Australia, Prime Minister Turnbull captured the mood of many.
:23:09. > :23:16.This is a direct and brutal attack on young people everywhere on
:23:17. > :23:20.freedom everywhere. Ariana Grande, the American singer whose concert it
:23:21. > :23:24.was in Manchester has flown home, but not yet cancelled her London
:23:25. > :23:27.tour dates later this week. Meanwhile, many other musicians
:23:28. > :23:31.tweeted their thoughts, including Rihanna, who said Manchester was
:23:32. > :23:35.close to her heart and suggested that the attack could have happened
:23:36. > :23:37.that one of her concerts. And the Oasis singer and celebrated
:23:38. > :23:40.Mancunian Liam Gallagher, who tweeted that he sent Northern Lights
:23:41. > :23:46.to all the families involved. The world of sport paid -- he said
:23:47. > :23:55.Lenovo and liked the families involved. Ahead of the Europa League
:23:56. > :24:06.match tonight, David Beckham captured the mood with this tweet.
:24:07. > :24:09.Police in Manchester say three more arrests have been made
:24:10. > :24:12.One man detained yesterday is still in custody.
:24:13. > :24:13.Catriona Renton is our correspondent outside
:24:14. > :24:29.What can you tell us about the three arrests this morning? There have
:24:30. > :24:33.been a number of developments. The three men who were arrested this
:24:34. > :24:38.morning were arrested in South Manchester. Police had been issued
:24:39. > :24:44.with warrants. We understand that they were arrested in connection
:24:45. > :24:47.with this investigation. Another development was the 23-year-old man
:24:48. > :24:53.who was arrested yesterday. He is the brother of 22-year-old Salman
:24:54. > :24:57.Abedi, who of course was the bomber that was identified yesterday. Let
:24:58. > :25:01.me bring you another statement from Greater Manchester Police which has
:25:02. > :25:04.come in in the last half-hour. They are confident that they know who all
:25:05. > :25:08.of the people are who sadly lost their lives at the Manchester Arena.
:25:09. > :25:13.They say they have made contact with all of the families, who are being
:25:14. > :25:19.supported by specialist officers. They say that due to the number of
:25:20. > :25:23.victim postmortems that are to take four to five days, they will then be
:25:24. > :25:30.in a position, with the guidance of the coroner, to formally named the
:25:31. > :25:32.victims. This investigation is very fast moving. We have seen the
:25:33. > :25:39.developments we have already talked about. Home Secretary Amber Rudd
:25:40. > :25:43.said this morning that Salman Abedi was known to intelligence services
:25:44. > :25:49.up to a point. That of course leaves a big question as to what extent he
:25:50. > :25:52.was known to intelligence services. We understand that he had recently
:25:53. > :25:58.come back from Libya. He would have had his passport checked by security
:25:59. > :26:03.services when he came back into the UK. We have also heard that he may
:26:04. > :26:09.have been known to American intelligence services also. The
:26:10. > :26:16.central point of the investigation now is, was Salman Abedi acting
:26:17. > :26:24.alone? Their priority is to find out who if anyone else was involved.
:26:25. > :26:28.They need to know where the bomb was made, if there were other people
:26:29. > :26:32.involved, and the making of the bomb, the armouring of the bomb and
:26:33. > :26:39.if there were others who were encouraging Salman Abedi and
:26:40. > :26:44.supporting him for he carried out a horrific attack on Monday night. The
:26:45. > :26:48.police investigation here is fast-moving, the police working hard
:26:49. > :26:53.with the counterterrorism network. They have also thanked the people of
:26:54. > :26:58.Manchester for their strength and resilience over the past few days.
:26:59. > :27:01.They say they will need to carry on with this strength and resilience
:27:02. > :27:07.while they ensure that they can make this city safe once again. Catriona
:27:08. > :27:09.Renton outside the Manchester police building, thank you.
:27:10. > :27:17.And we're joined now by Lucy Powell, who was an MP in Manchester.
:27:18. > :27:27.In your knowledge, how serious is the problem of Islamist
:27:28. > :27:31.radicalisation in Manchester? Am not sure this is the right moment to go
:27:32. > :27:40.into that, because I don't even want to ascribe what has happened to the
:27:41. > :27:43.Islamic faith. Most of my constituents who are Muslim would
:27:44. > :27:52.absolutely disassociated themselves from any act of violence or terror
:27:53. > :27:59.like this. But I am not ascribing it to them. I did not say Islam, I said
:28:00. > :28:03.Islamist, which is different. We have learned that there are areas
:28:04. > :28:07.regarded as hotbeds of Islamic State in the Manchester area. Were you
:28:08. > :28:17.aware of that? Is that common knowledge in the city? I think
:28:18. > :28:23.sometimes, these things are given labels. There was a media report
:28:24. > :28:25.recently about Moss side, an area I represent, as though that was
:28:26. > :28:30.somehow a hotbed of Islamic extremists. Actually, most of the
:28:31. > :28:36.evidence that was used in the article did not stack up because
:28:37. > :28:41.people were from far and wide across the Greater Manchester area. The
:28:42. > :28:47.people they were using to create that story were not there at the
:28:48. > :28:53.same time as one another. So we have to be careful, especially in these
:28:54. > :28:58.times, to start pitting community against community in saying that
:28:59. > :29:02.certain areas or certain people or certain communities are somehow
:29:03. > :29:08.responsible when they are not. These are the acts of deranged individuals
:29:09. > :29:15.who have, in my eyes, nothing to do with humanity. How anyone is a human
:29:16. > :29:21.being could carry out these acts more I find incomprehensible. So
:29:22. > :29:25.it's really important, in the face of these atrocities in this horrific
:29:26. > :29:32.terror attack in Manchester, that we don't start pointing the finger in
:29:33. > :29:35.the wrong place. I understand that. None of the questions I am asking
:29:36. > :29:39.you involve pointing the finger at anybody. They are trying to get to
:29:40. > :29:46.the bottom of how this happened and who was behind it. Is there a
:29:47. > :29:52.realisation, that Abedi was not acting alone, that there is a group
:29:53. > :29:57.of people who helped him to do this, therefore making the situation all
:29:58. > :30:01.the more dangerous? Well, that is what we are hearing. I am not in a
:30:02. > :30:05.position to provide a commentary, nor would I provide a running
:30:06. > :30:13.commentary on the operation that is under way and try to make sure that
:30:14. > :30:18.everybody associated with this heinous crime is brought to justice.
:30:19. > :30:23.Of course, when somebody carries out and act like this, in a sense, it
:30:24. > :30:32.does break open that network that has hitherto remained under the
:30:33. > :30:35.radar of the security services. So inevitably, I hope that they close
:30:36. > :30:40.all the associates down completely and identify them all and make sure
:30:41. > :30:45.they are brought to justice. But it is an ongoing investigation. I do
:30:46. > :30:49.not recognise the description of areas of Manchester being hotbeds of
:30:50. > :30:56.radicalisation. Police have named 22-year-old
:30:57. > :31:08.Salman Ramadan Abedi as the person suspected of carrying out
:31:09. > :31:10.the suicide attack at So what do we know about him and how
:31:11. > :31:21.he came to be radicalised? We're joined now by our Security
:31:22. > :31:25.Correspondent, Gordon Corera. We know that he was a Manchester United
:31:26. > :31:28.supporter, new like cricket, smoked cannabis, made it to Salford
:31:29. > :31:34.University, the son of Libyan parents who fled Colonel Gaddafi, he
:31:35. > :31:37.was not from a deprived background, his father had fled the Gaddafi
:31:38. > :31:44.regime, at one stage, but is now back in Tripoli. What else... What
:31:45. > :31:49.else, as we try to put together a picture of the suicide bomber, what
:31:50. > :31:51.else do we know? It is the moment of radicalisation which investigators
:31:52. > :31:55.are looking for, trying to understand when it took place, looks
:31:56. > :32:01.like a few years ago he was a relatively normal individual,
:32:02. > :32:05.football supporting and so on. But associate, people in the area, have
:32:06. > :32:06.said that more recently, they did notice some kind of change in
:32:07. > :32:14.behaviour. Some potential signs of what is
:32:15. > :32:18.looking certain to be radicalisation, the issue of travel
:32:19. > :32:21.is one that security services are looking at closely, the possibility
:32:22. > :32:25.he had been in Libya recently, was that a place in which he was
:32:26. > :32:30.radicalised, some possible reports of other travel as well, that will
:32:31. > :32:33.be something they will be trying to understand, was a radicalised there,
:32:34. > :32:37.was he tasked there, was he given training abroad, what kind of travel
:32:38. > :32:41.may there have been, also reports from France that French officials
:32:42. > :32:45.think he may have gone to Syria. Some of this is not confirmed, but
:32:46. > :32:54.that is going to be a very key line of enquiry. What about this group,
:32:55. > :32:59.the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, which existed in Libya to oppose
:33:00. > :33:03.Colonel Gaddafi, although Gaddafi's security services closed it down and
:33:04. > :33:08.took out and killed a lot of the leaders of it. There seems to be a
:33:09. > :33:14.remnant of it in the Manchester area, he may have had a connection,
:33:15. > :33:16.anything on that? The story of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group is
:33:17. > :33:20.very interesting when it comes to iteration ship with Britain because
:33:21. > :33:24.it was a group which was Islamist in outlook but was also anti-Gaddafi
:33:25. > :33:30.and if you look at the history, in the 90s, when Britain was very
:33:31. > :33:38.anti-Gaddafi, those people found a home in Britain, and they tended to
:33:39. > :33:41.be able to operate here, and then after 2003 there was the deal with
:33:42. > :33:45.Colonel Gaddafi and Britain and the Libyan regime became more friendly
:33:46. > :33:49.and then there was more pressure on the LIFG in Britain. Very
:33:50. > :33:53.interesting history of the last 20, 30 years, in which the Britain
:33:54. > :33:59.intelligence services and the state 's attitude to LIFG has mirrored how
:34:00. > :34:04.friendly or not we were with the regime of Colonel Gaddafi, which
:34:05. > :34:12.they were fighting and opposing. I don't think we have yet heard from
:34:13. > :34:18.the father, he was born in 1965, very strict Muslim, some reports say
:34:19. > :34:21.that he was very anti-jihadi. Some reports that he may have been
:34:22. > :34:26.involved with internal security in Libya at one stage but then broke
:34:27. > :34:32.with Tripoli in 1991, may have been in Saudi Arabia for a while, then
:34:33. > :34:37.went to London in 1992, then Manchester, and had four children,
:34:38. > :34:42.but then went back to Tripoli in 2008, before the regime change.
:34:43. > :34:47.Interesting timing, a lot of people from LIFG and related groups went
:34:48. > :34:51.back after regime change. There were some deals done with former
:34:52. > :34:58.opponents under Colonel Gaddafi in that period. That looks quite
:34:59. > :35:02.unusual. Now, you have a lot of former anti-Gaddafi forces and
:35:03. > :35:07.individuals who were based, back in Libya, and so it is a very
:35:08. > :35:11.complicated mix, the Libyan opposition, full of different groups
:35:12. > :35:15.and individuals, different factions who have been fighting each other in
:35:16. > :35:20.recent months and years, and that will complicate the intelligence and
:35:21. > :35:23.security gathering business for British intelligence, to try to
:35:24. > :35:29.establish what the links are and who knew what. A final question, more
:35:30. > :35:35.generally, where do you see the state of the investigation so far,
:35:36. > :35:39.into Salman Abedi and those who may well have helped him? The crucial
:35:40. > :35:44.issue is where was the bomb instructed and by who, general view
:35:45. > :35:48.is that it was not a straightforward device, may have required assistance
:35:49. > :35:52.from others, and they want to know was there a bomb factory in the UK,
:35:53. > :35:58.was there a bomb maker in the UK, did it take place overseas. That is
:35:59. > :36:07.vital to understand where the residual threat lies and how serious
:36:08. > :36:08.it might be in the UK. That is why the threat level has gone up too
:36:09. > :36:18.critical. Thank you for joining us. I'm joined now by the former
:36:19. > :36:21.Communities Secretary, Hazel Blears, who helped run the Prevent strategy
:36:22. > :36:23.under Labour and Douglas Murray, associate director of
:36:24. > :36:31.the Henry Jackson Society, had the politicians say what they
:36:32. > :36:36.say after a terrible atrocity like this happens, and we have stepped up
:36:37. > :36:41.security and what is said is well said and well meant, too, but does
:36:42. > :36:45.anything, in the end, ever change? Inevitable that in an event, and
:36:46. > :36:48.after an event like this, people concentrate on the here and now,
:36:49. > :36:52.this operation to bring people to justice and that is to be expected,
:36:53. > :36:57.I want us to take a step back and think about what is it that is going
:36:58. > :37:02.on in our country and around the world, where we have a supply chain
:37:03. > :37:06.of people coming through who are radicalised and not just radicalised
:37:07. > :37:10.but prepared to kill and kill themselves in the process. 7/7, that
:37:11. > :37:14.was the first time we had experienced that in this country, a
:37:15. > :37:17.sense of national shock that three young men brought up and educated in
:37:18. > :37:23.the British education system could set out on a murderous bombing
:37:24. > :37:27.mission, and it has happened again. Ten years later. A decade on. It has
:37:28. > :37:34.happened around the world, France, Spain, Belgium. We have done some
:37:35. > :37:37.good work in bringing communities together, the channel programme,
:37:38. > :37:41.with direct the lies agent but we have not tackled this ideology. I
:37:42. > :37:44.went to see David Cameron Mackay boss task force that we set up,
:37:45. > :37:48.together with a Conservative colleague on a cross-party basis,
:37:49. > :37:53.and gave them a paper, it was about saying, then we take part of this
:37:54. > :37:56.ideology of hating the West, having a caliphate and a theocracy around
:37:57. > :38:02.the world, and being prepared to murder on the basis that if you die,
:38:03. > :38:06.you are going to paradise. It is a threadbare, worthless ideology, we
:38:07. > :38:10.tackle fascism, Nazism, we need the same determination to be able to
:38:11. > :38:14.tackle this ideology. Then we might be getting somewhere. At the moment,
:38:15. > :38:17.I do not think we are marshalling our resources in the way we ought to
:38:18. > :38:23.be, it is an existing Schalke wrecked. We need to meet it. In the
:38:24. > :38:30.end, we only defeated Nazism because of total war. It was not the idea,
:38:31. > :38:42.it was the total war that won. And of course I am not advocating that.
:38:43. > :38:45.-- it is an existing problem. We do not want to believe what they say,
:38:46. > :38:49.after all these years we seem to be in this strange cycle, Hazel quite
:38:50. > :38:54.rightly says, not preparing to fight this ideology but politicians, from
:38:55. > :38:57.all parties, are very reluctant to even name the ideology in question.
:38:58. > :39:05.There is a concerted effort after an attack like that on Monday night, to
:39:06. > :39:12.not say anything that would compel anybody to do something. Last night,
:39:13. > :39:15.-- last month, after the Westminster terror attacks, just down the road
:39:16. > :39:19.from here, the Dean of Westminster on behalf of this nation stood up at
:39:20. > :39:23.the pulpit and said, we may never know what may drive somebody to do
:39:24. > :39:28.this... Sorry, we do know! We know why somebody like Khalid Masood did
:39:29. > :39:32.what he did outside the Houses of Parliament, we know why somebody
:39:33. > :39:38.like this young man did what he did, they keep telling us! We just don't
:39:39. > :39:43.want to listen. Is it, is it the Islamist ideology? Yes... Don't
:39:44. > :39:48.recognise that? No, take Italy we do not want to recognise where it comes
:39:49. > :39:51.from. Wethers it come from? Religion, the worst possible
:39:52. > :39:56.interpretation of the religion, it comes from it, we are very reluctant
:39:57. > :40:00.to face up to date. -- where does it come from. Underneath all this there
:40:01. > :40:03.is something else happening, politicians are talking about
:40:04. > :40:07.technical issues to do with security, but the public in Britain
:40:08. > :40:09.and the public in Europe are thinking totally different things,
:40:10. > :40:14.they are thinking for instance, how can it be that we may bring a couple
:40:15. > :40:18.of Libyans who may have suffered under Colonel Gaddafi into this
:40:19. > :40:22.country as asylum seekers, perhaps they are pro-Britain, perhaps the
:40:23. > :40:25.most pro-Britain ever, but maybe their child will turn up to a pop
:40:26. > :40:30.concert one night and blow up a bunch of women and children... How
:40:31. > :40:34.can you ever know that? What does the policy followed, that we should
:40:35. > :40:39.not have let them in? The policy issue is, the public are wondering
:40:40. > :40:43.whether this whole idea of mass migration, of borderless world and
:40:44. > :40:45.all of these things is such a good idea, publics are committed to a
:40:46. > :40:49.different conclusion to politicians, it is right we have security
:40:50. > :40:53.questions but as a country we should also be thinking about the deeper
:40:54. > :40:58.underlying things. I may so, when Hazel says, we have two tackle this
:40:59. > :41:07.underlying ideology and fight it, I agree, but we must appropriately
:41:08. > :41:11.designate the problem. Hazel, we still have... You need to let Hazel
:41:12. > :41:14.Blears speak. With Robert share some of the analysis but I am a practical
:41:15. > :41:19.person, what I set out to do with prevent was not just described the
:41:20. > :41:25.problem, and I agree, it needs to be named. -- Prevent. The overwhelming
:41:26. > :41:29.majority of Muslim people are... Are opposed to this, we need to have a
:41:30. > :41:31.series of practical programmes, court to have education, not just
:41:32. > :41:36.the Muslim community but other faiths as well, to understand this,
:41:37. > :41:39.to have critical thinking so that you can challenge the ideas of the
:41:40. > :41:46.extremists, because they are very simple and actually very stupid as
:41:47. > :41:50.well. If we have the arguments to use... Douglas, it is all very well
:41:51. > :41:53.to have rhetoric, rhetoric can inflame the situation, you need a
:41:54. > :41:59.careful measured view with a proper programme and properly resourced.
:42:00. > :42:03.This programme, the Prevent programme, prime example, there has
:42:04. > :42:07.been all criticism, but what is one of the unanimous issues with
:42:08. > :42:12.Prevent, almost total pushback against the policy from Day 1 from
:42:13. > :42:15.self appointed leadership of the Muslim community. That is one of the
:42:16. > :42:20.overwhelming things at prevent, people say, I have a problem with
:42:21. > :42:23.this bit, that bit, no, most people you hear from within the Muslim
:42:24. > :42:30.communities, terrific examples of people, they are against any policy,
:42:31. > :42:35.not a bit of it, they don't want any of it. I disagree. Let Hazel Blears
:42:36. > :42:40.speak. I disagree with you again, what you are saying is, the people
:42:41. > :42:43.who are anti-prevent the majority voice coming you may say that they
:42:44. > :42:47.are the majority but they are not, there is a lot of decent people in
:42:48. > :42:50.the community, young people. I'm talking about within the leadership.
:42:51. > :42:56.They have become stars and when you get the opportunity of a leadership
:42:57. > :43:01.platform, they are amazing, women, in the same place, you cannot paint
:43:02. > :43:04.everybody. I did not do that. You have been listening to this, it is
:43:05. > :43:10.quite hard to see what the policy responses. Your job, you have to
:43:11. > :43:16.pick up the pieces from the failure of a political strategy, which,
:43:17. > :43:20.which has led to terrorism, but I am not quite sure... What should we be
:43:21. > :43:26.doing? What should we be doing to stop it being your problem? What we
:43:27. > :43:30.have seen across Europe, and if you think back to the attackers from
:43:31. > :43:35.Paris, certainly one of them was able to go back to his location in
:43:36. > :43:42.Ulamek, 100 metres from where he was born and brought up, and hide from
:43:43. > :43:46.the police. -- Meulen beak. There is such a disconnect between the
:43:47. > :43:51.community and the police force, certainly in that country, what we
:43:52. > :43:57.have seen today is something going on not quite the same but along
:43:58. > :44:02.those lines in Manchester, and we need to break down communities that
:44:03. > :44:07.see themselves as insular and not linked into the rest of the state.
:44:08. > :44:12.-- Molenbeek. You said education, but Salman Abedi was educated, he
:44:13. > :44:16.went to Salford University, studying business management, he was not some
:44:17. > :44:23.illiterate whose mind had been warped... His mind was warped. Not
:44:24. > :44:27.because he wasn't educated. When I talk about education I mean
:44:28. > :44:32.education from primary school together to understand that this
:44:33. > :44:36.kind of extremism is not something that represents your faith, not
:44:37. > :44:39.something you want to be involved with, so you can be educated to a
:44:40. > :44:44.top-level but you can still be driven by this ideology. Politicians
:44:45. > :44:50.have this great faith in education, at their time, the Germans were the
:44:51. > :44:53.best educated people in the world, they ended up with Adolf Hitler.
:44:54. > :44:58.Indeed. That shows you the strength of an ideology. The importance of
:44:59. > :45:03.countering it as well but you cannot count it if you simply think that it
:45:04. > :45:07.is, that it is solvable by Hazel Blears or by Amber Rudd or anybody
:45:08. > :45:11.else coming up with a counter at the ology, these people believe they are
:45:12. > :45:14.acting in the name of their God, -- counter ideology. They may not
:45:15. > :45:18.listen to a British minister. We need to have a line to them that
:45:19. > :45:25.breaks to the heart of their warped ideology. What does that mean? What
:45:26. > :45:31.does it mean? Douglas, what is the policy response? Not the metaphor.
:45:32. > :45:34.The first thing is, politicians and others have too acknowledged that
:45:35. > :45:37.when these things happen, instead of learning from them," coming
:45:38. > :45:42.together" and all of this, we did not want this to happen, we never
:45:43. > :45:44.wanted to get to this place where we had people, including first and
:45:45. > :45:48.second generation immigrants in this country blowing people up at pop
:45:49. > :45:51.concerts. There is no single way to deal with it but one of the worst
:45:52. > :45:54.ways to deal with it is when people like Andy Burnham, unfortunately,
:45:55. > :45:59.now the mayor of Manchester, campaigned not only to prevent
:46:00. > :46:06.Prevent -- scrap Prevent but not even suggesting something to go in
:46:07. > :46:09.its place, the current strategy has all sorts of flaws but it is the
:46:10. > :46:11.best and we need some kind of strategy, preferable to no strategy
:46:12. > :46:18.at all. On that we are agreed. The Manchester attack happened
:46:19. > :46:20.four years to the day since Fusilier Lee Rigby
:46:21. > :46:22.was murdered by two extremists near his barracks in Woolwich,
:46:23. > :46:24.south-east London. And the last two and a half years
:46:25. > :46:27.has seen yet more attacks, as the so-called Islamic State has
:46:28. > :46:30.encouraged its supporters to launch Back in January 2015 a pair
:46:31. > :46:34.of masked men killed 12 people at the office of the satirical
:46:35. > :46:36.magazine Charlie Hebdo, before killing five other people
:46:37. > :46:41.in and around Paris. Later that year,
:46:42. > :46:45.Paris was hit again. This time a group of a gunmen
:46:46. > :46:47.and suicide bombers attacked the Bataclan concert hall and other
:46:48. > :46:50.sites around the city, The next month, a lone
:46:51. > :46:54.attacker inspired by Islamic State attempted to behead
:46:55. > :46:57.a passenger in the ticket hall of Leytonstone tube
:46:58. > :47:03.station in east London. Then,
:47:04. > :47:04.in March 2016, Brussels was hit airport and one at a metro station
:47:05. > :47:09.near EU institutions. In July,
:47:10. > :47:15.as France celebrated Bastille Day, a truck mowed through a crowd
:47:16. > :47:18.of people on the Nice seafront. In December, a similar
:47:19. > :47:32.attack saw a lorry plough into a crowd of people
:47:33. > :47:34.at a Berlin Christmas market. Then in March, five people
:47:35. > :47:47.were murdered when Khalid Masood launched a car and knife attack
:47:48. > :47:49.here in Westminster. a man
:47:50. > :47:52.carrying knives near parliament police and arrested on suspicion
:47:53. > :48:12.of terrorism offences. I joined now by Charlie Winther from
:48:13. > :48:18.the international centre for counterterrorism and Adam Deen from
:48:19. > :48:21.the Quilliam Foundation. When you see that litany of appalling
:48:22. > :48:29.terrorist attacks and what we know about Abedi in Manchester, what is
:48:30. > :48:33.the theme? What is the common denominator? We are seeing the
:48:34. > :48:40.aftermath of two decades of Islamist ideology running a mock. We are
:48:41. > :48:46.seeing the effects of their not being a strong counter narrative.
:48:47. > :48:50.Young Muslims are taking on this ideology of Islam is and
:48:51. > :48:57.understanding it to be an authentic representation and acting upon it,
:48:58. > :49:02.thinking that they are serving God. But is the lack of a counter
:49:03. > :49:05.narrative, Charlie winter, is that partly the fault of the Islamic
:49:06. > :49:13.immunity, that they haven't built a strong enough counter to the
:49:14. > :49:17.Islamist ideology? It is important to keep in mind that it is a tiny
:49:18. > :49:24.minority of people that think any of this stuff is a good idea. But it
:49:25. > :49:29.can cause so much pain. So the size of it, in a way, doesn't matter if
:49:30. > :49:33.you can kill 22 innocent people at a pop concert. Of course it doesn't.
:49:34. > :49:39.Let's not detract from the scale of the atrocity. But at the same time,
:49:40. > :49:42.when you are looking for a better way to counter this, we need to
:49:43. > :49:53.recognise that it is a small number of people. But what do we do? What
:49:54. > :49:56.I'm saying is that we can look to the Muslim community and ask them to
:49:57. > :50:01.do more. The fact of the matter is that people like Abedi don't listen,
:50:02. > :50:05.however. There is only so far you can go with that line. Do you think
:50:06. > :50:10.that is because there hasn't been a strong enough challenge to it? Isis
:50:11. > :50:15.'s fringe, but the problem is that the Muslim community shares a broad
:50:16. > :50:21.spectrum of beliefs with the likes of Isis. They share? They share it.
:50:22. > :50:28.And that is something we need to have a candid discussion about.
:50:29. > :50:34.Often, these discussions of extremism and the medieval theology
:50:35. > :50:38.that supports these acts, it has almost been muted. It is time to
:50:39. > :50:43.have an honest discussion. Let me be clear. You are saying there are
:50:44. > :50:47.views within the mainstream Muslim community, which would be appalled
:50:48. > :50:51.at what happened in Manchester, but they have something in common with
:50:52. > :51:00.Islamic State ideology? Voids are there to be filled. If you're
:51:01. > :51:04.Islamic education talk about an Islamic State, a utopian Islamic
:51:05. > :51:11.State, talking about dividing the world in terms of good and evil,
:51:12. > :51:17.these concepts can be exploited by Islamist extremists. That is what is
:51:18. > :51:26.happening. Charlie Winter? I would be wary of saying there is a large
:51:27. > :51:33.number of perhaps I misinterpreted it, but I think the vast majority of
:51:34. > :51:41.people would be adamant in saying that they have no part in believing
:51:42. > :51:48.anything that the Islamic State does. Whether that is contradicted
:51:49. > :51:51.by a belief in the caliphate ultimately being an important part
:51:52. > :51:58.of Islam is a different thing. But in this context, that is important.
:51:59. > :52:04.But is the Muslim community in general, because in the end, they
:52:05. > :52:07.are the best people to do it on the well-known principle that only Nixon
:52:08. > :52:11.could go to China, the best people to do this is the Muslim community
:52:12. > :52:18.itself, which oppose what is going on. Are they doing enough to make
:52:19. > :52:21.sure that the kind of messages that Abedi was clearly getting to cause
:52:22. > :52:29.him to carry this out are not reaching people like him? Well, it
:52:30. > :52:36.is limited, what they can do. But are they doing all they can do? An
:52:37. > :52:40.imam in Manchester who is moderate or mainstream will not be able to
:52:41. > :52:44.resonate with someone like Abedi. This is a world where a lot of the
:52:45. > :52:53.radical activity that used to happen in so-called radical mosques can
:52:54. > :52:58.happen easily on social media. 99% of Muslims plus condemn Isis. That
:52:59. > :53:03.is not the challenge. The challenge is to take on the ideas that give
:53:04. > :53:06.oxygen to extremist narratives. In terms of mosques and imams, it is
:53:07. > :53:12.not so much what they are saying or doing, it is what they are not
:53:13. > :53:17.saying. We need to inculcate values of human rights, democracy and
:53:18. > :53:24.freedom in young Muslim minds so that they can be inoculated from
:53:25. > :53:27.extremist narratives. But even if we were to get this right, and I get
:53:28. > :53:32.the sense that we are a long way from getting it right, we are
:53:33. > :53:36.closing the stable door after the horse has bolted? We have learned
:53:37. > :53:43.that Abedi was in Libya. We think he might have been in Syria as well. We
:53:44. > :53:47.are told about 350 Islamic fighters who had been in Syria or Islamic
:53:48. > :53:50.State areas are back in the Manchester area. They have been
:53:51. > :53:56.radicalised. It is too late for them. And the two multiplying
:53:57. > :54:00.factors we need to remember is the ease of travel, which we have all
:54:01. > :54:07.got now, and the ease of communication, which means the very
:54:08. > :54:10.small percentage of the radicals, the idiots, can communicate and talk
:54:11. > :54:15.to each other and effectively multiply what they do. And of
:54:16. > :54:21.course, one terrorist attack is a huge issue across the world. And
:54:22. > :54:25.everyone now sees it. And individuals can talk to each other
:54:26. > :54:29.on the other side of the world, which was never possible even a
:54:30. > :54:35.generation ago. Is it going to get worse before it gets better? I think
:54:36. > :54:48.so. I think Pandora's box has opened. We will leave it there.
:54:49. > :54:52.As we have said, political campaigning has been resumed in the
:54:53. > :54:54.wake of the Manchester attack, but the Ukip leader Paul Nuttall has
:54:55. > :54:58.said he will resume tomorrow. We don't know what the main parties
:54:59. > :55:02.will do. Norman Smith joins us from Downing Street.
:55:03. > :55:10.Is there any sign of a restart of the campaign? The only sign of it is
:55:11. > :55:15.Ukip going solo. They will start campaigning tomorrow with the launch
:55:16. > :55:19.of their manifesto on the grounds, says their leader Paul Nuttall, that
:55:20. > :55:27.not to do so would be a victory for the terrorists, that democracy
:55:28. > :55:31.cannot be cowed by a terrorist act. There will have been two days of
:55:32. > :55:35.non-campaigning as a mark of respect and tomorrow is an appropriate time
:55:36. > :55:39.to start. I think they will be doing so on their own. I detect no
:55:40. > :55:44.inclination from any of the other main parties to join them. The
:55:45. > :55:49.language from Government is that they are talking about several more
:55:50. > :55:54.days before campaigning resumes. I presume that means probably
:55:55. > :55:59.stretching into the weekend. Who knows, maybe even beyond the Bank
:56:00. > :56:03.Holiday Monday. The SNP are also beginning to calculate that their
:56:04. > :56:09.manifesto may have to wait for next week. In terms of labour, they would
:56:10. > :56:13.like to get on with it because they feel they were building up a degree
:56:14. > :56:19.of momentum and that if there is any politics around this, it probably
:56:20. > :56:22.plays more to the advantage of the government. That said, I don't think
:56:23. > :56:27.they will break ranks and suddenly start campaigning. My expectation is
:56:28. > :56:30.that Ukip will have their launch tomorrow, which will be hugely
:56:31. > :56:33.controversial and most of the questions will not be about their
:56:34. > :56:39.manifesto, but about whether it is appropriate to restart the campaign
:56:40. > :56:43.when you have still got children in hospital with very serious injuries.
:56:44. > :56:50.And we have a life counterterrorism operation goes on and maybe a
:56:51. > :56:55.continuing terrorist threat. It sounds like the campaign proper may
:56:56. > :56:59.not begin again until Tuesday, which would mean in the middle of a
:57:00. > :57:04.general election, a whole week of campaigning is lost because of what
:57:05. > :57:11.happened in Manchester. That is a possibility. I would caution,
:57:12. > :57:14.though, that I understand there has been no formal decision within
:57:15. > :57:21.government about exactly when to restart. That is partly because of
:57:22. > :57:24.the nature of the counterterrorism operation, the fact that the risk
:57:25. > :57:29.has now been raised to critical. Troops are going to be deployed.
:57:30. > :57:33.There is clearly a nervousness and anxiety that this man, Salman Abedi,
:57:34. > :57:39.had associates and was maybe part of a network. In other words, there is
:57:40. > :57:42.a potential life threat. I think any Prime Minister would be very wary
:57:43. > :57:48.about returning to an election campaign in that context. There is
:57:49. > :57:56.also a respect factor and how the public would react to politicians
:57:57. > :58:00.shouting the odds at each other if people in danger of losing their
:58:01. > :58:09.lives and still have children in hospital. Indeed. Thank you for
:58:10. > :58:13.that. That is a problem. The names of those who lost their lives are
:58:14. > :58:22.still coming out. There are heartbreaking pictures of youngsters
:58:23. > :58:24.just starting out in life. Given the abilities of our security services,
:58:25. > :58:33.I would think we will see breakthroughs in the next 48 to 72
:58:34. > :58:38.hours. I really hope so. We are at the beginning of this terrorist
:58:39. > :58:43.incident, I believe. We have seen in other terrorist incidents, lots of
:58:44. > :58:46.people being arrested in flats and bombs going off. So it could happen
:58:47. > :58:49.again. Chris, thank you very much. The one o'clock news is starting
:58:50. > :58:54.over on BBC One now. We've made great strides
:58:55. > :59:04.tackling HIV. Imagine if we could
:59:05. > :59:07.create a movement