:00:37. > :00:44.Manchester police say they will no longer share intelligence
:00:45. > :00:46.about Monday's bomb attack with their US counterparts,
:00:47. > :00:49.after more information, including photographs,
:00:50. > :00:54.Have the leaks harmed the investigation, and
:00:55. > :01:15.A minute's silence is observed across the UK
:01:16. > :01:20.as the victims of Monday night's attack are remembered.
:01:21. > :01:23.Political campaigning has now resumed, but how different will it
:01:24. > :01:31.Ukip launched its manifesto this morning - will they be able to take
:01:32. > :01:36.advantage of increased concerns about security and extremism?
:01:37. > :01:42.And net migration falls by 84,000 to 248,000.
:01:43. > :01:44.Progress for the Government, but do the Conservatives have any
:01:45. > :01:46.chance of meeting their manifesto target of reducing it
:01:47. > :01:58.All that in the next hour, and with us for the duration today
:01:59. > :02:00.is the former Deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott.
:02:01. > :02:07.First this morning, police investigating the Manchester Arena
:02:08. > :02:09.bomb attack have stopped sharing information with the US,
:02:10. > :02:17.UK officials were outraged when crime scene photos appearing
:02:18. > :02:20.to show debris from the attack appeared in the New York Times.
:02:21. > :02:23.The pictures show blood-stained fragments from the bomb,
:02:24. > :02:28.including a battery, shrapnel and a possible detonator.
:02:29. > :02:34.They also show the backpack used by Salman Abedi
:02:35. > :02:37.The Prime Minister is expected to raise the intelligence leak
:02:38. > :02:42.directly with President Trump at a Nato meeting in Brussels today.
:02:43. > :02:45.And in the last hour, this is what Theresa May had to say
:02:46. > :02:51.I have just chaired a meeting of Cobra, where I was updated
:02:52. > :02:54.on the extraordinary response of the police and emergency services
:02:55. > :03:01.The police have confirmed eight suspects remain in custody and that
:03:02. > :03:04.progress is being made in the case, but the threat level,
:03:05. > :03:10.as assessed by the independent Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre,
:03:11. > :03:13.will remain at critical and the public should remain vigilant.
:03:14. > :03:18.I was also briefed on Operation Temperer.
:03:19. > :03:20.Around 1,000 members of the Armed Forces are assisting
:03:21. > :03:24.the police, providing important reassurance ahead of a bank holiday
:03:25. > :03:34.Shortly, I will be travelling to a Nato summit where I will be
:03:35. > :03:40.working with international colleagues on defeating terrorism.
:03:41. > :03:43.I will make clear to President Trump that intelligence that is shared
:03:44. > :03:46.between our law enforcement agencies must remain secure.
:03:47. > :03:51.Tomorrow, I will be attending the G7 summit in Italy where I will lead
:03:52. > :03:55.a discussion on counterterrorism and on how we will work together
:03:56. > :04:00.to prevent the plotting of terrorist attacks online and to stop
:04:01. > :04:06.the spread of hateful, extremist ideology on social media.
:04:07. > :04:09.I am very grateful for the expressions of support
:04:10. > :04:13.and condolences that the UK has received from international
:04:14. > :04:19.G7 and Nato will enable us to work more closely together as we work
:04:20. > :04:30.That was the Prime Minister earlier this morning.
:04:31. > :04:33.We can speak now to our security correspondent, Frank Gardner.
:04:34. > :04:40.Starting with the leak and then the wider investigation, I'm right in
:04:41. > :04:45.thinking that it is not just a case of the New York Times correspondent
:04:46. > :04:52.speaking to his security sources, the security sources, probably the
:04:53. > :04:56.FBI, I would guess, did not just guide his hand, they passed this
:04:57. > :05:02.pictures and data to him? Am I right to find that remarkable? You are
:05:03. > :05:05.right and it is deeply shocking. It comes just hours after the Home
:05:06. > :05:10.Secretary, Amber Rudd, had voiced her irritation at the fact the name
:05:11. > :05:13.of the bomber which the police wanted to keep secret until they
:05:14. > :05:18.were ready for it to be released, that was revealed to NBC news, it
:05:19. > :05:22.was leaked out of US intelligence, she said. She said, Richard never
:05:23. > :05:29.happen again. It did happen again and in a far worse way -- it should
:05:30. > :05:32.never happen again. It is deeply disrespectful to the families of the
:05:33. > :05:37.victims. These are pictures of the device that killed their loved ones,
:05:38. > :05:40.they should not have to see this, certainly not splashed across the
:05:41. > :05:47.media like this. Secondly, there is the operational aspect of it. It is
:05:48. > :05:53.telling the terrorist, the very people, this network, who are being
:05:54. > :05:56.hunted right now across the country, particularly in Manchester, it is
:05:57. > :06:01.telling them how much is known, giving them clues about what has
:06:02. > :06:08.survived from the blast. That is an initiator, slightly different from a
:06:09. > :06:12.detonator. It is also damaging to the whole US- UK intelligence
:06:13. > :06:18.sharing arrangement which is part of the five eyes arrangement where the
:06:19. > :06:21.US and UK, Australia, New Zealand and Canada, they share information.
:06:22. > :06:27.Under that arrangement, the country that provides the information owns
:06:28. > :06:31.it, meaning no one else can share it with anybody else unless they go
:06:32. > :06:35.back to the source country and say, would you mind if we share it? If
:06:36. > :06:39.someone said, do you mind if we splashed this across the New York
:06:40. > :06:43.Times? Britain is very unlikely to say yes. My understanding is the
:06:44. > :06:48.source is it has come via liaison officers because the way it works is
:06:49. > :06:52.the US and UK have people embedded in each other's countries and the
:06:53. > :06:57.information is shared through them but somebody in one of the 16 US
:06:58. > :07:01.intelligence agencies, possibly homeland security, has shared it
:07:02. > :07:09.with media and that is what Theresa May is going to be taking issue with
:07:10. > :07:12.with Donald Trump about shortly. The British are obviously, rightly,
:07:13. > :07:19.outraged by what has happened, but they are trying to limit the damage,
:07:20. > :07:24.am I right in thinking they are not passing on more information about
:07:25. > :07:27.this particular investigation, but the wider intelligence sharing
:07:28. > :07:35.between the US and the UK, that is continuing? That is continuing,
:07:36. > :07:39.exactly. This man, -- this van, it only applies to sensitive
:07:40. > :07:46.intelligence gathered by Greater Manchester Police on the ground at
:07:47. > :07:51.the scene. It does not apply to other intelligence information that
:07:52. > :07:58.MI5 or MX six, GCHQ, what they might gather, that relationship remains
:07:59. > :08:02.intact -- MI6. It will raise questions in Whitehall about whether
:08:03. > :08:05.we can trust the Americans. This has come just days after Donald Trump
:08:06. > :08:10.was accused of telling the Russians more than he should have done about
:08:11. > :08:15.a source inside Isis in Syria which would have told them where an agent,
:08:16. > :08:21.possibly from Jordan or Israel, was hidden. It is very undermining,
:08:22. > :08:25.this, of the whole intelligence sharing relationship. Alternately,
:08:26. > :08:29.US intelligence is many times bigger and better funded than any other
:08:30. > :08:34.country's in the world, even Russia and China. That is why people in the
:08:35. > :08:40.intelligence community in Whitehall and Cheltenham will be scrambling to
:08:41. > :08:46.ring fence the relationship and say, look, this only applies to the
:08:47. > :08:51.police sourced information, not to the wider relationship. Let me come
:08:52. > :08:55.onto the investigation itself, a lot of activity in the Greater
:08:56. > :08:59.Manchester area as they tried to I assume track down a cell or
:09:00. > :09:05.bomb-making capability and who was behind it, but also, increasing
:09:06. > :09:11.Libyan connection as well. Yes, there was a slight false alarm a few
:09:12. > :09:16.minutes ago when there was a bomb disposal which rushed to what could
:09:17. > :09:21.have been an expose of device, but it turned out to be a suspect
:09:22. > :09:25.package, not a bomb. The race is on. Let us not beat around the bush. The
:09:26. > :09:33.race is on to try to find what they suspect are more devices, who knows
:09:34. > :09:37.how many, maybe one, maybe none, maybe several, but that is why we
:09:38. > :09:43.are still at critical and wide Theresa May has said Britain will
:09:44. > :09:49.remain at terrorist threat critical -- and why Theresa May has said. It
:09:50. > :09:52.does not mean it definitely will happen, but they cannot rule out the
:09:53. > :09:56.possibility because they are absolutely convinced the bomber was
:09:57. > :10:00.not working alone, he probably did not even build a device himself,
:10:01. > :10:05.chemicals were required, probably in this country, and mix together by
:10:06. > :10:08.someone who knew what they were doing, using bomb-making skills
:10:09. > :10:13.honed in the Middle East or possibly North Africa, of the same level of
:10:14. > :10:17.sophistication as the ones used in the attack in Paris in November,
:10:18. > :10:27.2015. That is why you are seeing these well armed teams going in with
:10:28. > :10:31.dogs, laser beams, rifles, assault rifles, and going in, expecting to
:10:32. > :10:37.find at certain addresses quite possibly a suicide bomber.
:10:38. > :10:41.Eventually, hopefully, they will find the device and the person who
:10:42. > :10:47.has done this. Frank Gardner, thank you for joining us on the Daily
:10:48. > :10:51.Politics today. John Prescott, quite remarkable, the leaks. As
:10:52. > :10:55.journalists, we liked scoops, but we never want to do anything that could
:10:56. > :10:59.get in the way of the security forces tracking these people down.
:11:00. > :11:04.No, and I remember at times I have written about when I am concerned
:11:05. > :11:07.about the relationship between GH CQ and the Americans because leaking
:11:08. > :11:14.has been part of an parcel of the American system -- GCHQ. What is
:11:15. > :11:18.alarming is somebody made a decision to print horrific details about a
:11:19. > :11:22.terrible incident and opened the argument about what is the value of
:11:23. > :11:25.the sharing of intelligence between the main intelligence agencies, in
:11:26. > :11:33.this case, the Americans and ourselves, and I see Theresa May who
:11:34. > :11:37.is there now to meet Donald Trump... In Brussels. One of the policies is
:11:38. > :11:41.to improve the sharing of intelligence. The question now is
:11:42. > :11:44.whether you can trust the Americans. It is a game changer. We have to
:11:45. > :11:50.rethink the whole policy. It is baffling to me, whoever did this on
:11:51. > :11:55.whether homeland security, the FBI, as Frank says, there are 16
:11:56. > :12:00.different intelligence agencies in America, what is in it for them?
:12:01. > :12:05.What is the benefit for them of giving it to the New York Times?
:12:06. > :12:08.Andrew, you know more than most. The relationship between police,
:12:09. > :12:13.intelligence and press is close. Often it is, you give us a bit of
:12:14. > :12:17.information and we will give you that. I cannot see a rational
:12:18. > :12:21.explanation because it is so horrific, given the circumstances.
:12:22. > :12:24.Making it more difficult to track down the terrorists. To be honest,
:12:25. > :12:31.there has got to be a complete review. She is talking to Mr Trump
:12:32. > :12:34.now, or President Trump, about sharing intelligence. I think she
:12:35. > :12:39.will have to go further because in the manifesto we are talking about
:12:40. > :12:42.later, she says, we have a clear terrorist strategy. There is only
:12:43. > :12:48.one line in the paper. This is a game changer. It really is. What we
:12:49. > :12:52.have been doing is not good enough, quite frankly. We have to look at
:12:53. > :12:57.this were lots of things are coming out, lots of reviews are under way,
:12:58. > :13:01.as Andy was saying in Birmingham, what the police are now saying, we
:13:02. > :13:04.cannot go on as we are and the threats are now in our city, we have
:13:05. > :13:09.to think about strategy. We will come back to that.
:13:10. > :13:11.This morning, Paul Nuttall unveiled Ukip's general election
:13:12. > :13:15.It comes as some low-key campaigning by other parties restarts
:13:16. > :13:21.Paul Nuttall pledged to tackle radical Islam.
:13:22. > :13:24.He said anybody who left the UK to fight for so-called Islamic State
:13:25. > :13:29.should forfeit their passport and never be allowed to return.
:13:30. > :13:33.The manifesto promises 20,000 extra police officers,
:13:34. > :13:35.20,000 extra troops, 7,000 extra prison officers
:13:36. > :13:43.Ukip would reduce net migration to zero within five years.
:13:44. > :13:49.And they would ban the wearing of face coverings in public places.
:13:50. > :13:54.Ukip are offering an extra ?11 billion every year for the NHS
:13:55. > :13:59.and social care by 2022, funded by cuts in foreign aid.
:14:00. > :14:07.There would be a rise in the threshold for paying income
:14:08. > :14:11.tax to ?13,500 and Ukip promise a cut in taxes for middle earners,
:14:12. > :14:15.as well as a cut in VAT on household bills.
:14:16. > :14:21.Ukip's manifesto promises to axe tuition fees for science,
:14:22. > :14:25.technology, engineering, maths and medicine.
:14:26. > :14:28.And there is a pledge to provide up to 100,000 new homes
:14:29. > :14:42.On pensions, Ukip would maintain the triple lock which sees them rise
:14:43. > :14:44.by the higher of prices, average earnings or 2.5%.
:14:45. > :14:54.Launching the manifesto, Ukip leader Paul Nuttall described
:14:55. > :14:56.the decision to launch it as a message to terrorists
:14:57. > :15:01.It is the duty today of democratic politics to confront the most
:15:02. > :15:03.serious issues of our time and a general election campaign
:15:04. > :15:06.is the most appropriate moment for those issues to be debated.
:15:07. > :15:08.It is also our chance to send a message to those
:15:09. > :15:19.who hate our way of life, our values and our democracy.
:15:20. > :15:21.The message is clear - you will not win.
:15:22. > :15:24.Expressing sympathy with those killed and maimed in Manchester
:15:25. > :15:25.is important, but it is not enough to light candles or signal our
:15:26. > :15:38.When you are a leader of a political party,
:15:39. > :15:41.you have a duty to set out how you would protect the people
:15:42. > :15:49.of your country from the threat to their entire way of life.
:15:50. > :15:52.Taking questions from journalists at the end of the launch,
:15:53. > :15:54.the BBC's political editor, Laura Kuenssberg, was loudly
:15:55. > :15:56.heckled, after suggesting to Paul Nuttall that he was trying
:15:57. > :16:05.to blame the Prime Minister for the bomb attack in Manchester.
:16:06. > :16:15.it sounds like you're near as dammit blaming the Prime Minister for this
:16:16. > :16:26.attack... Is that the BBC? You are part of the problem! Is that the
:16:27. > :16:31.BBC, by any chance? Can we have some respect, please, everybody. Please,
:16:32. > :16:36.let's be respectful. No, I am not accusing the Prime Minister, I say
:16:37. > :16:39.politicians of this country have been weak on this issue for many
:16:40. > :16:47.years. In terms of her record as Home Secretary, this is appalling, a
:16:48. > :16:52.Home Secretary who cut the number of police officers, border guards,
:16:53. > :16:57.prison officers. I'm sorry, it isn't a good record at all. But as the
:16:58. > :17:00.blaming her personally for the attack, absolutely not, I am not
:17:01. > :17:04.doing that. What I am saying is that the politicians in this country are
:17:05. > :17:07.too cowardly at the moment to face up to what the real issue is.
:17:08. > :17:10.And Ukip's Deputy Chairman, Suzanne Evans, joins us now.
:17:11. > :17:15.I understand that press launch, you said the Prime Minister "Must bear
:17:16. > :17:20.some responsibility for what happened in Manchester". I don't
:17:21. > :17:23.think so, I made it perfectly clear at the press conference that the
:17:24. > :17:27.only people to blame for the tragic events on Monday night were the
:17:28. > :17:31.terrorists who plotted and carried out this atrocity and I want to make
:17:32. > :17:35.it absolutely clear. So when you say that Mrs May must bear some
:17:36. > :17:40.responsibility, to what are you referring? I think we have had
:17:41. > :17:43.successive Labour and Conservative governments who have failed to put
:17:44. > :17:47.the security of our nation and the safety of the British people first.
:17:48. > :17:51.I think that is the first job of any government. We spelt it out at our
:17:52. > :17:54.press conference. We want to put another 20,000 police back on our
:17:55. > :17:59.streets, because that is almost about the number that have been cut
:18:00. > :18:02.over the past few years. We want to put 4000 more border guards, because
:18:03. > :18:06.that again is a number that has been cut over the past few years. We are
:18:07. > :18:10.an island, we should have a natural ability to be to detect ourselves,
:18:11. > :18:15.and yet our borders have been deliberately open, not least by John
:18:16. > :18:19.Prescott's government in 1997, where there was a deliberate attempt to go
:18:20. > :18:23.out and invite people to Britain whose way of life was fundamentally
:18:24. > :18:28.incompatible with hours. What we're saying is that the cowardly previous
:18:29. > :18:32.politicians has contributed to an environment where this kind of
:18:33. > :18:37.ideology has been allowed to flourish. But the suicide bomber,
:18:38. > :18:44.Abedi, was born in this country. What does being an island have to do
:18:45. > :18:48.with it? His parents were not born here, and it is pretty clear now
:18:49. > :18:51.that his parents were parents who perhaps helped to radicalise him as
:18:52. > :18:56.well, it sounds as if they had even a part to play in this attack. We
:18:57. > :19:00.haven't got the evidence for that yet. There is no doubt, as I said,
:19:01. > :19:04.there are people who have migrated to Britain in the past 40 years or
:19:05. > :19:10.so who have never even tried to adapt to our way of life. There has
:19:11. > :19:19.been this philosophy of more track Ashun of multiculturalism -- a
:19:20. > :19:22.philosophy of multiculturalism, where they are allowed to carry on
:19:23. > :19:25.behaving in exactly the same way as they would in their countries of
:19:26. > :19:30.origin. This is why we now have record numbers of young girls and
:19:31. > :19:43.women in this country living at risk of female genital mutilation. It is
:19:44. > :19:45.why we have on crimes, even these appalling cultural practices, and
:19:46. > :19:50.cowardly politicians have not stood against them for long enough. But
:19:51. > :19:57.for a long while the suicide bomber behaved like a normal British kid,
:19:58. > :19:59.he followed Manchester United, he played cricket committee got to
:20:00. > :20:03.Salford University. Something obviously changed, I understand
:20:04. > :20:06.that, but I don't what it has to do with the number of police on the
:20:07. > :20:10.streets or having tougher borders. These things are very complicated,
:20:11. > :20:15.we don't quite understand how this radicalisation could take place. But
:20:16. > :20:18.to say that all the politicians have to have some responsibility for this
:20:19. > :20:23.just seems to me to be spraying around blame. I think what we have
:20:24. > :20:26.to do is tackle not just the violent crimes when they occur, we have to
:20:27. > :20:31.tackle the ideology behind this as well. And unfortunately our
:20:32. > :20:35.politicians, rather than tackle the ideology, they have in many ways
:20:36. > :20:40.actually Masood shtick. So for instance, Theresa May herself has
:20:41. > :20:43.spoken about how she has no problem with sharia councils operating in
:20:44. > :20:50.Britain, she has no problem with the niqab or the burqa. To me they are
:20:51. > :20:54.unacceptable symbols of oppression against women, which she of Robbie
:20:55. > :20:58.Busher be standing against. I am not saying Ukip's manifesto will solve
:20:59. > :21:02.all these problems, but Andrew, forgot say, we have children dying,
:21:03. > :21:06.what are we supposed to do? We have to try a new approach because the
:21:07. > :21:09.current approach is not working. What is the connection between
:21:10. > :21:14.wearing the niqab and what happened on Manchester on Monday night? There
:21:15. > :21:18.is a connection because we have allowed these radical extreme
:21:19. > :21:22.ideology is a place in our society. They have, in a sense, become
:21:23. > :21:27.legitimised by, you know, I'm not saying that every Muslim woman
:21:28. > :21:32.wearing a veil is of course going to commit an atrocity. What are you
:21:33. > :21:39.saying then? It wasn't a woman wearing a niqab. We want to make a
:21:40. > :21:42.stand against these practices in Britain that are not just compatible
:21:43. > :21:46.with our values. As I say, you might not like the answer is that we give
:21:47. > :21:51.but I think in politics we have a duty to at least try and make a
:21:52. > :21:56.difference. The fact is the status quo is simply not working. Let's
:21:57. > :22:00.just here again what you have to say at the Ukip manifesto launch this
:22:01. > :22:06.morning. I think she must bear some responsibility. All politicians who
:22:07. > :22:11.voted against measures, all voted for measures to make cuts, bear some
:22:12. > :22:15.responsibility. As I said, Adam, when 9/11 happened, we should have
:22:16. > :22:20.had a serious rethink about immigration. It didn't happen.
:22:21. > :22:27.Again, you link this to immigration, but it is hard to see the evidence.
:22:28. > :22:31.Can I point out that the parents of the suicide bomber came to this
:22:32. > :22:36.country because they were opposed to Gaddafi, which was also British
:22:37. > :22:39.policy at the time to be opposed to Gaddafi. They were welcomed into
:22:40. > :22:45.this country at the time, because they were seen to be on the same
:22:46. > :22:52.song sheet as British policy. You don't need to talk to me about that.
:22:53. > :22:55.So what is the problem? I was a journalist, I remember some Kurdish
:22:56. > :22:59.refugees from Iraq came into this country seeking asylum, and they
:23:00. > :23:01.were sent back home because the government said, oh, Saddam Hussein
:23:02. > :23:06.is a nice bloke, he is not gassing the Kurds. That turned out to be
:23:07. > :23:09.completed... Foreign policy does change, and misses the point, nobody
:23:10. > :23:14.seems to stand up against evil wherever they see it. How can you
:23:15. > :23:18.base and immigration policy on this couple coming in, at the time they
:23:19. > :23:22.had no children, and they come to Britain, they are fleeing Gaddafi.
:23:23. > :23:25.How can you base and immigration policy, we are not going to let you
:23:26. > :23:30.in because your kid might turn out to be a suicide bomber? How is that
:23:31. > :23:37.a rational for proceeding? Finally another those words are not in our
:23:38. > :23:42.manifesto. You are the one linking what happened in Manchester to
:23:43. > :23:45.immigration. No, we are talking separately about having a sensible
:23:46. > :23:50.immigration policy, a policy that says there are too many people
:23:51. > :23:55.coming into Britain... You have just linked immigration to the Prime
:23:56. > :23:58.Minister's responsibility of what happened. We were talking about the
:23:59. > :24:05.cuts to the border. The police force and the armed services. But he want
:24:06. > :24:09.to link it to immigration. Yes, I stand by what I said, after 9/11 we
:24:10. > :24:12.should have thought, we have this massive problem with Islamist terror
:24:13. > :24:16.in this country, maybe we should just stop letting people who share
:24:17. > :24:20.these ideals from coming in, and that is what our manifesto says
:24:21. > :24:24.today. Zero net migration over a period of five years, and to have a
:24:25. > :24:28.compatibility test so that people coming in, we can test their social
:24:29. > :24:32.values. If they are incompatible with Britain, why should we not let
:24:33. > :24:37.them in? Is there not something quite desperate about Ukip now? You
:24:38. > :24:40.have been marginalised in this election, you are no longer a threat
:24:41. > :24:45.to labour in the north and you have now decided to make immigration and
:24:46. > :24:51.what happened in Manchester your kind of last-ditch stand, and it is
:24:52. > :25:04.unsavoury. It is not unsavoury and it is also not true. The fact is
:25:05. > :25:09.Ukip have been talking about these issues were last the last three
:25:10. > :25:12.years. This manifesto, our integration ideas and policies were
:25:13. > :25:16.launched last month. This manifesto was put to bed before the Manchester
:25:17. > :25:21.incident, so don't you dare accuse us of trying to be opportunist here.
:25:22. > :25:23.We are trying to respond to a serious issue in this country that
:25:24. > :25:29.frankly the other politicians can't even speak its name, Islamist
:25:30. > :25:33.terrorism. That is pretty unsavoury too. Let's look at this one in, one
:25:34. > :25:41.out immigration policy, because your policy will now be that no matter
:25:42. > :25:50.how many doctors we need in the NHS, no matter how many high-tech skilled
:25:51. > :25:53.people we need for all the growing high-tech companies across this
:25:54. > :25:58.country we can't have any unless someone leaves the country? You are
:25:59. > :26:02.missing the point, we also saying we are abolishing tuition fees for
:26:03. > :26:07.science, engineering, medicine and maths, because we need to start
:26:08. > :26:11.training people up. But that will take years. What do we do now? You
:26:12. > :26:17.will not allow them to come in unless somebody leaves. I mean, it
:26:18. > :26:21.is a bizarre suggestion. It doesn't work like that, Andrew. This is why
:26:22. > :26:25.I made it clear, your introduction was wrong. We're not going to take
:26:26. > :26:30.migration to zero for five years, we are going to have a target of zero
:26:31. > :26:36.net migration over a five-year period. That is the same thing. No,
:26:37. > :26:39.it not. We can still have up to 300,000 migrants coming to Britain.
:26:40. > :26:44.I don't think anybody would think that is an unreasonable number. But
:26:45. > :26:53.after five years, the net migration will be zero and plan. 240,000, the
:26:54. > :26:59.latest figure, your net migration figure would be zero, and it would
:27:00. > :27:03.bear no relationship to the economic needs of this country. Of course it
:27:04. > :27:10.will. Then you can't have it at zero. Yes, because we prioritise in
:27:11. > :27:14.those 253,000 people coming in, we prioritise the skills coming in.
:27:15. > :27:18.That is why we said we will have a moratorium on unskilled labour for
:27:19. > :27:21.five years. We see absolutely no logic in having up to a million
:27:22. > :27:25.young people unemployed in a country that can do the jobs that at the
:27:26. > :27:30.moment big businesses are cynically exploiting migrants from overseas to
:27:31. > :27:39.do, instead of giving British jobs the British people, they are
:27:40. > :27:44.importing cheap labour. Unemployment is 4.2%, the lowest for 40 years, a
:27:45. > :27:48.growing economy needs more labour. And a lot of it needs to be skilled.
:27:49. > :27:53.Every politician who has ever sat in that chair has promised to do more
:27:54. > :27:55.on skills. By and large they have nearly all failed and you are now
:27:56. > :28:01.going to create a massive skill shortage in the years to come, which
:28:02. > :28:06.will undermine the economic growth of this country. All because your
:28:07. > :28:11.immigration policy says this brain surgeon Dr who wants to come to
:28:12. > :28:16.Britain cannot come in unless I retire abroad. That is what you are
:28:17. > :28:20.saying. Andrew, you are very sensible usually but I think you are
:28:21. > :28:23.hyping this up to the extreme. Our policies if you take them as a whole
:28:24. > :28:29.in our manifesto, we are putting a huge amount of money into training
:28:30. > :28:32.doctors, nurses, emergency workers, policemen, border Force control,
:28:33. > :28:36.prison officers. We are investing in these people. The great thing about
:28:37. > :28:40.Ukip 's Mac policy, unlike the other politicians who have sat in this
:28:41. > :28:44.chair and made permissive they can't keep, we know where our money is
:28:45. > :28:50.coming from. You are going to cut off aid to the poorest in the world.
:28:51. > :28:54.We are going to keep a at 0.2% of GNI and we will be paying the same
:28:55. > :29:02.percentage wise as America and more in cash terms than Spain and Italy.
:29:03. > :29:06.I would not be in new cup -- be in Ukip in writing that manifesto if I
:29:07. > :29:10.believed that the party was cutting off aid to the neediest in the
:29:11. > :29:15.world. We will continue to spend 4 billion in humanitarian relief, we
:29:16. > :29:19.will have a hospital ship as well to increase our policy to deliver aid
:29:20. > :29:25.around the world. John Prescott, you have been listening, what do you
:29:26. > :29:29.make of it? I welcome debates about anything, immigration is a very
:29:30. > :29:32.portland issue. The real problems come into the solution, when you
:29:33. > :29:40.start setting the target you then have to explain how you will get it
:29:41. > :29:44.down to zero. There are very real problems. But some of the facts, you
:29:45. > :29:48.know, police were actually increased under Labour, not reduced, so you
:29:49. > :29:54.can't blame us for that. They will reduce the afterwards. I just wonder
:29:55. > :30:00.when you said these skilled people, a brain surgeon... We're not going
:30:01. > :30:05.to stop any brain surgeons. What if they came from Libya or Iraq, would
:30:06. > :30:10.you deny them where they come from? Or you would let the men, or do you
:30:11. > :30:13.find out what their background was, whether parents actually supporting
:30:14. > :30:16.some radical movement, which we would encourage in Britain over in
:30:17. > :30:18.Libya? Is that the depth of enquiry you will go into the stop people
:30:19. > :30:27.coming? I think talking about a specific
:30:28. > :30:33.occupation is a little bit. We are not going to stop brain surgeons we
:30:34. > :30:37.need coming to Britain. Leave out the brain surgeon, that was
:30:38. > :30:40.mentioned. Are you going to investigate the background of people
:30:41. > :30:44.who come from countries you obviously assumed to be evil
:30:45. > :30:47.countries where there are Muslims, will you investigate... You have
:30:48. > :30:51.done it with the mother and father of the person who has been accused
:30:52. > :30:56.in Manchester. Would you go into the background to do that? We would test
:30:57. > :31:03.attitudes? What do you mean? A question at the port of entry? No,
:31:04. > :31:07.in advance, when you are replying. What sort of questions would you ask
:31:08. > :31:14.them? Would they have to say they are Muslim? They might well do. You
:31:15. > :31:20.can support the rights of women and gay people and be Muslim. You would
:31:21. > :31:24.ask, do you support gay people? Is that the kind of question you are
:31:25. > :31:30.going to subject people to who come to Britain to be a doctor? What is
:31:31. > :31:33.your answer? You went out seeking migrants whose views were
:31:34. > :31:38.incompatible with the British way of life because you wanted to rob the
:31:39. > :31:45.nose of the right into diversity. No. I did not believe in a federal
:31:46. > :31:50.Europe which presumably is what you believe in as well, you do not want
:31:51. > :31:53.that Europe structure, what will Eastern European countries do? There
:31:54. > :31:57.were people like me and others who thought, let us get them into the
:31:58. > :32:01.European Community and then they will be a better political balance
:32:02. > :32:06.between the strength of France and Germany. These are strategic
:32:07. > :32:15.decisions for me. It went well. Are: it can give them jobs. Taking jobs
:32:16. > :32:18.from our young people. -- our economy can give them jobs. It is
:32:19. > :32:22.kind of a motivation you are faced with. These are normal economic
:32:23. > :32:26.facts. You want to make it look evil, if you are from certain
:32:27. > :32:30.countries, if you are wearing a burqa, you are feeding the fears
:32:31. > :32:35.causing problems in this country today. That is the connection to
:32:36. > :32:43.Manchester. You are feeding the fears. You are not facing up to the
:32:44. > :32:46.reality of Islamist terror. Let the electorate decide. We will leave it
:32:47. > :32:51.there. Suzanne Evans, thank you for coming in on the day of the
:32:52. > :32:57.manifesto launch. We are getting a briefing that the suicide bomber in
:32:58. > :33:03.Manchester, Salman Abedi, he was one of a larger pool of what called
:33:04. > :33:08.former subjects of interests who remain subject of review by MI5 and
:33:09. > :33:15.other security institutions. It was pointed out MI5 is managing around
:33:16. > :33:20.500 active investigations at any one time involving some 3000 subjects of
:33:21. > :33:25.interest at any one time which I think gives us an idea of the scale
:33:26. > :33:26.of the challenge that faces the security services at a time like
:33:27. > :33:31.this. So, what can politicians do to try
:33:32. > :33:34.and prevent attacks like the one we saw in Manchester
:33:35. > :33:35.on Monday night? Well, we've seen what Ukip have
:33:36. > :33:39.to offer, but let's take a look at what some of the other political
:33:40. > :33:41.parties' manifestos have to say The Conservative Party say that,
:33:42. > :33:44.if they're re-elected, they would set up a Commission
:33:45. > :33:47.for Countering Extremism which, they say, would identify examples
:33:48. > :33:49.of extremism and expose them. They would also consider creating
:33:50. > :33:52.new criminal offences to try and help police
:33:53. > :33:59.and prosecutors tackle extremists. And they would create a new national
:34:00. > :34:01.infrastructure police force to protect key strategic locations
:34:02. > :34:04.across the country, like railway As for Labour, they would carry out
:34:05. > :34:12.a review of the anti-radicalisation Prevent programme to address
:34:13. > :34:14.the concern that it can, in their words, alienate
:34:15. > :34:18.minority communities. Labour would also bring
:34:19. > :34:20.in new judicial oversight of the investigatory powers used
:34:21. > :34:24.by the authorities. And an incoming Labour government
:34:25. > :34:26.would recruit an extra 10,000 police The Liberal Democrats would scrap
:34:27. > :34:33.the Prevent programme and replace it with a scheme more focused
:34:34. > :34:39.on what they call And the Lib Dems say they would roll
:34:40. > :34:44.back state surveillance powers. They say that people should be
:34:45. > :34:46.notified when they've been placed under surveillance,
:34:47. > :34:49.if, in their words, that can be done without jeopardising
:34:50. > :34:50.ongoing investigations. As for the SNP, we don't yet
:34:51. > :34:54.have their manifesto. But in their last one,
:34:55. > :34:58.for the Scottish Parliament elections in 2016, they said
:34:59. > :35:01.that they would continue to work closely with partners in the UK,
:35:02. > :35:03.and further afield, to tackle We're joined now by the director
:35:04. > :35:10.of the right of centre think tank, Policy Exchange, Dean Godson,
:35:11. > :35:14.and Raffaello Pantucci of the security think tank,
:35:15. > :35:24.the Royal United Services Institute. Welcome to both of you. From what
:35:25. > :35:30.you have seen of the parties policies, are you impressed? A lot
:35:31. > :35:36.of good stuff in there. Firstly, the national extremism commission, the
:35:37. > :35:41.issue of ideology and upstream extremists views on the national
:35:42. > :35:49.agenda, online extremism, powers, the new proposed powers, they are
:35:50. > :35:51.extremely welcome. The broader policies for national
:35:52. > :35:56.infrastructure... What would the commission do? Name and shame, put a
:35:57. > :36:05.sharp focus on those groupings that are not doing enough to combat the
:36:06. > :36:07.grievance culture, the culture of extremism, the upstream ideology of
:36:08. > :36:13.anti-British narratives, Lord Carlisle started it in his oversight
:36:14. > :36:17.of the review in 2011, it needs to be weaponised now and this is a good
:36:18. > :36:23.way of starting it. What do you make of it? I am struck by how little
:36:24. > :36:28.there is in the manifestos. Dean is right, there is detailed in the Tory
:36:29. > :36:33.one which demonstrates a certain level of thought, but Lib Dem and
:36:34. > :36:37.Labour, they are only talking about surveillance powers and ABBA
:36:38. > :36:42.prevent. What is striking is that the to which it has not been a focus
:36:43. > :36:47.of the election campaign so far -- and Prevent. The mainstream
:36:48. > :36:55.politicians are running out of ideas? Like cancer, the problem of
:36:56. > :36:58.extremism, violent extremism, it keeps metastasising, new forms and
:36:59. > :37:04.sources, some pretty old sources, many problems over the years with
:37:05. > :37:11.Libya from the IRA time, the PC Fletcher think, pro and anti-Gaddafi
:37:12. > :37:14.people... Those fighting cancer are coming up with amazing new ideas
:37:15. > :37:20.every day to tackle it, that is not the case of politicians trying to
:37:21. > :37:25.fight the cancer of terrorism. Everybody has got to raise their
:37:26. > :37:29.game, but this is a more complex... This is, shall we say, art, not
:37:30. > :37:35.science, not medical science, and if you look at past measures, 2011
:37:36. > :37:39.Prevent review, everyone said it would drive elements of the Muslim
:37:40. > :37:43.community into the corner, it did not. Some of the most extreme
:37:44. > :37:48.manifestations of extremism have been damped down. They are now
:37:49. > :37:52.coming back and that is why we have to keep ahead of the game and that
:37:53. > :37:56.is why these measures in the manifesto, the Conservative
:37:57. > :38:01.manifesto, are particularly useful. If the parties consulted you for
:38:02. > :38:05.advice on this, what would you have told them? Talking about
:38:06. > :38:10.counterterrorism, you are talking out something very technical and
:38:11. > :38:13.involving people and the skills required to investigate and disrupt
:38:14. > :38:16.networks, it is fairly technical, someone fighting a political
:38:17. > :38:20.campaign, they will not be well-placed to delve into the detail
:38:21. > :38:26.of it. I would argue that side of it, they describe as pursue and
:38:27. > :38:29.protect and how to protect people, do the investigations, that is one
:38:30. > :38:33.piece which I think broadly there is a consensus we are moving the right
:38:34. > :38:37.direction, leave it to the professionals. That is probably the
:38:38. > :38:41.right approach. The question is the Prevent part and that is the
:38:42. > :38:45.forward-looking part, how do we get ahead of the curve? Can you stop
:38:46. > :38:49.people becoming subjects of investigations, so they not get
:38:50. > :38:53.involved in the networks? What I would argue is when we are looking
:38:54. > :38:57.at the Prevent space, it is quite broad. On some sites, it is about
:38:58. > :39:01.managing people who have been radicalised, been to an
:39:02. > :39:06.investigation, maybe been to prison, come out and what do you do with
:39:07. > :39:11.them? You know they have experience which requires careful management.
:39:12. > :39:14.Prevent also includes the other end of the spectrum, much more about
:39:15. > :39:19.community engagement, trying to work with communities of young people may
:39:20. > :39:22.be from which we have seen some individual radicals emerge. I would
:39:23. > :39:27.argue sticking these together under the broad umbrella of Prevent might
:39:28. > :39:30.be sticking a bit too much and it might be a question of separating
:39:31. > :39:34.things out and trying to break away the peace of the softer end and
:39:35. > :39:38.putting it into a non-security environment and keeping the other
:39:39. > :39:42.part which is clearly still a security question in that space.
:39:43. > :39:47.John Prescott, Labour invented Prevent. It was a way to stop the
:39:48. > :39:50.spread of Islamist ideas in the Muslim community. Now your party's
:39:51. > :39:56.manifesto seems more worried about its potential to alienate minority
:39:57. > :40:02.communities? When you talk within the community, they feel that they
:40:03. > :40:11.are the enemy and you report on human is threatening and that has
:40:12. > :40:15.questioned the role of it -- you report on who is threatening. The
:40:16. > :40:20.big issue we are avoiding. How do you bring all of the parts together?
:40:21. > :40:24.Politicians, as we see in the manifestos, they say there is a
:40:25. > :40:30.reduction in the police, 1600 armed police go missing, you bring in 1600
:40:31. > :40:38.armed soldiers, 20,000 police means they are not able to do an effective
:40:39. > :40:43.job. The firemen reduced, nurses, reduced. Political argument, if we
:40:44. > :40:46.get out of that, we put it in the manifesto, that is right, but if we
:40:47. > :40:51.want to really deal with it, we need to deal with it at the community
:40:52. > :40:55.level. Prevent was the start, but unfortunately, the way it has
:40:56. > :41:01.developed, the blood critical. -- people are critical. All politicians
:41:02. > :41:06.come to an agreement that what the cities need to be safe and secure it
:41:07. > :41:09.is proper public services, deal with the anti-terrorism, it is not
:41:10. > :41:16.mentioned in the Tories what the policy means, perhaps we need to get
:41:17. > :41:20.down and talk about it. I would go further. Regime change in the
:41:21. > :41:23.Mideast has not helped. Libya, Mr Cameron went there, Mr Blair was
:41:24. > :41:30.talking about it, but the policy came out to place the regime and
:41:31. > :41:37.joint rebels. We back one side and basically that is making it more
:41:38. > :41:43.difficult to deal with. To go now to Nato and talk to Trump and he goes
:41:44. > :41:46.to Saudi Arabia and says... Someone has called it going back to the
:41:47. > :41:53.Crusades. Was it the American president who said it was a crusade?
:41:54. > :41:56.There is a war going on about culture, religion, we have got to
:41:57. > :42:02.sit down and ask ourselves, what do we do in this country? It is no
:42:03. > :42:09.longer like with the IRA and others, this is individuals, they think they
:42:10. > :42:11.have to do is running to help the people and they do this terrible
:42:12. > :42:17.thing which has happened in Manchester. -- they think they have
:42:18. > :42:21.to do something. You have to think about what is motivating it and you
:42:22. > :42:25.have to get into the community. This does not look like a low wall. Libya
:42:26. > :42:30.was a broken society long before David Cameron became Prime Minister
:42:31. > :42:38.or even Tony Blair trying to bring in Gaddafi from the cold. But they
:42:39. > :42:43.were holding it together. It spills over here, it does not stop there.
:42:44. > :42:47.The Libyan community in this country, on the basis of what they
:42:48. > :42:54.are saying, let us find out if it was so, the findings were ignored.
:42:55. > :42:59.Prevent, far from being oppressive... Whether you call it
:43:00. > :43:06.Prevent or something else, the fact is, the job of the security services
:43:07. > :43:12.is to deal with things when Prevent has failed. How do we improve
:43:13. > :43:15.Prevent? How do we reach into the Muslim communities with the leaders
:43:16. > :43:20.of the community is to stop this sort of thing from spreading? One of
:43:21. > :43:24.the interesting phrases is the question of leaders of communities.
:43:25. > :43:29.That was one of the policies under elements of the last Labour
:43:30. > :43:33.government, big disagreements between Hazel Blears and Jack Straw,
:43:34. > :43:37.whether community leaders were the right way to behave, why do we
:43:38. > :43:44.behave within a new imperialist way within our own borders? The leaders
:43:45. > :43:50.do not necessarily represent... If not leaders, what do we do? We treat
:43:51. > :43:54.them like citizens like anyone else, we have engagement at grassroots, we
:43:55. > :43:59.have to up our game. There has been a stalemate at the top end and we
:44:00. > :44:02.need to engage more closely at the grassroots with citizens, with
:44:03. > :44:07.Muslim citizens, of whatever affiliation. Final comment from you?
:44:08. > :44:13.I have spoken to lots of people working on Prevent rogue runs around
:44:14. > :44:15.the country and they come back with very positive comments about the
:44:16. > :44:20.specific programme they having gauged in. That is what we have to
:44:21. > :44:24.remember. On the ground, it seems to work. There are very loud voices
:44:25. > :44:28.that dominate the conversation publicly. We have to not get
:44:29. > :44:35.distracted by that. The policy in some parts does work. Maybe we need
:44:36. > :44:38.to take some of the softer elements, though not the harder end of
:44:39. > :44:44.security, and shift them out of the security space. I thank you both.
:44:45. > :44:47.Now, yesterday saw almost 1,000 troops deployed on our streets
:44:48. > :44:49.to backfill for the police while the terror threat level
:44:50. > :44:51.is raised to critical following the Manchester bombing.
:44:52. > :44:53.That means an attack may be imminent.
:44:54. > :44:56.Troops will be used to guard important buildings, so the army
:44:57. > :44:59.We also saw members of the Army stationed in Whitehall,
:45:00. > :45:00.Downing Street and at Buckingham Palace.
:45:01. > :45:03.The head of the Met Police, Cressida Dick, said having soldiers
:45:04. > :45:10.to do these patrols helped free up the police at this difficult time.
:45:11. > :45:12.Whilst we're at critical, and there is the possibility
:45:13. > :45:15.of a further attack, we want to be able to support
:45:16. > :45:18.the public as best we can, and to protect them as best we can,
:45:19. > :45:22.and we believe we need more armed officers on the streets.
:45:23. > :45:27.So putting military colleagues on what I would call static posts,
:45:28. > :45:32.in this case the Palace of Westminster, allows us to put
:45:33. > :45:33.police officers with firearms in greater numbers out
:45:34. > :45:51.That is the new head of the ledger Poulton police, Britain's most
:45:52. > :45:53.important police chief. -- the head of the Metropolitan Police Service
:45:54. > :45:56.We're joined now by Steve White, chair of the Police Federation,
:45:57. > :46:00.the staff association for police constables, sergeants
:46:01. > :46:04.is deployment of the military on streets, is it anything more than
:46:05. > :46:07.symbolic? I never thought I would see the day, to be perfectly frank,
:46:08. > :46:10.and we have to recognise that was these events are fast moving, the
:46:11. > :46:14.brilliant response of the emergency services and the police service as a
:46:15. > :46:18.whole has been second to none. However, and of course the support
:46:19. > :46:22.of military colleagues are clearly needed. They are clearly needed
:46:23. > :46:25.because unfortunately, in a situation such as this, the current
:46:26. > :46:29.police service is not structured to deal with it in a prolonged way. Of
:46:30. > :46:32.course what happened on Monday night, the response by officers in
:46:33. > :46:37.Greater Manchester, as happened on the 22nd of March, has been
:46:38. > :46:41.absolutely superb. But this is about a sustained level of threat, and by
:46:42. > :46:44.virtue of our saying that armed military are having to replace armed
:46:45. > :46:51.police officers in order to release that resource, it clearly sends a
:46:52. > :46:54.concerning message. I understand that, but let's put the picture and
:46:55. > :46:59.see this, because as you say it is quite a remarkable picture. If we
:47:00. > :47:04.can just get it up on the screen, to see our police officers going down
:47:05. > :47:10.the streets with armed soldiers. We haven't been able to get the picture
:47:11. > :47:16.up there. Yes, there we have it. It is worth dwelling on that to see in
:47:17. > :47:24.Britain in the summer of 2017. But it is only as I understand it
:47:25. > :47:27.several hundred. The French are deploying 10,000 troops a day across
:47:28. > :47:35.France, you see them everywhere you go, not just in Paris. I left from a
:47:36. > :47:39.provincial TGV train station recently, four well armed soldiers
:47:40. > :47:45.going up and down the station before we got onto this train. We are not
:47:46. > :47:52.at that level yet or anywhere near it, which is why I just suggest it
:47:53. > :47:56.seems to be more symbolic than of any real practical impact. It
:47:57. > :47:59.provides a practical impact because it releases officers in order to be
:48:00. > :48:03.available should something else happened. But I think the main
:48:04. > :48:09.difference with policing in the UK and policing abroad is about this
:48:10. > :48:13.policing by consent model. It is about embedding the police service
:48:14. > :48:18.within local communities, which is so vitally important. That is worth
:48:19. > :48:21.many, many, many soldiers and military personnel on the street.
:48:22. > :48:26.The lesson that has to be learned from these awful incidents has got
:48:27. > :48:29.to be armed police officers being deployed are not going to prevent
:48:30. > :48:33.further attacks. They are going to be a better respond to the attack.
:48:34. > :48:40.What we have got to concentrate on is how we prevented the first place.
:48:41. > :48:43.-- prevent it in the first place was the first point of a police
:48:44. > :48:46.constable is prevention of a crime in the first place. It is making
:48:47. > :48:49.sure we invest the time and the energy and the resources and the
:48:50. > :48:53.specialisms to get into the communities, those hard to reach
:48:54. > :48:58.areas, so that this 22-year-old who carried out this awful atrocity is
:48:59. > :49:03.known to local people. Local people have trust and confidence to be able
:49:04. > :49:07.to... But he was, even with the cut in police numbers, and I know you
:49:08. > :49:12.share my concern about that, Salman Abedi was known to the police.
:49:13. > :49:17.Friends reported him to the anti-terrorism hotline five years
:49:18. > :49:22.ago. He was flagged -- flying a flag that looked like an Isis symbol from
:49:23. > :49:25.his window, Arabic writing on it, he was loudly repeating prayers and the
:49:26. > :49:31.Koran in the streets. People thought that's strange. It wasn't a lack of
:49:32. > :49:34.police numbers, there is a failure somewhere that is not to do with
:49:35. > :49:39.numbers. Don't forget that actually what has happened over the past five
:49:40. > :49:44.years is the cut in police on a bus, chief constables are having to make
:49:45. > :49:47.very difficult decisions, that has involved cutting our firearms
:49:48. > :49:51.capability and embedded neighbourhood policing. It is not
:49:52. > :49:56.about having police officers responding to calls but having
:49:57. > :50:00.people who know your communities, asking the question is, why hasn't
:50:01. > :50:06.this person been seen? All of this kind of stuff is very difficult to
:50:07. > :50:09.measure of course, in terms of outcomes and key performance
:50:10. > :50:13.indicators. Which we are not supposed to have any more but we
:50:14. > :50:16.sort of still do. It is easy to measure some things, but it is very
:50:17. > :50:19.difficult to measure the neighbourhood of neighbourhood --
:50:20. > :50:23.the amount of neighbourhood policing and increasing that level of
:50:24. > :50:29.confidence. We have to make sure these things are there. I predicted
:50:30. > :50:32.two years ago that we would end up with a paramilitary style of
:50:33. > :50:36.policing, and if that is what the public wants, that is what we can
:50:37. > :50:42.provide. The image you had on the screen is the stark potentiality of
:50:43. > :50:48.that. It hasn't happened yet. I am not here to talk about politics, but
:50:49. > :50:52.policing, I am asking every politician to raise the debate, ask
:50:53. > :50:55.what they would like to see from their government, and I think they
:50:56. > :51:00.would like to see more police officers and less military on the
:51:01. > :51:03.streets. We brought in community policing, the community talks to
:51:04. > :51:08.their own people and they pass it onto the police. If you go and tell
:51:09. > :51:11.a police constable or a soldier, that prevents the community telling
:51:12. > :51:16.you what is going on, whether it is the black flag. We lost thousands of
:51:17. > :51:22.the community policing. When you mean community policing, you might
:51:23. > :51:25.mean a policeman, but there is this go between the police and the
:51:26. > :51:28.public, the community police use to fill it in and people trusted them
:51:29. > :51:31.to pass on the information to the authorities. This is becoming
:51:32. > :51:34.increasingly clear, they don't tell anybody. We need to end it there but
:51:35. > :51:37.we thank you for coming in. Now, it's emerged that
:51:38. > :51:39.the Manchester Arena bomber, Salman Abedi, returned from Libya
:51:40. > :51:42.just days before Monday's attack. The Abedi family were
:51:43. > :51:44.part of a large Libyan Those travelling to and from
:51:45. > :51:48.the war-torn country are said to be of increasing concern
:51:49. > :51:50.to the security services. So, what is the Libyan connection
:51:51. > :51:52.with the Manchester attack? The face of the home-grown
:51:53. > :51:59.suicide bomber. Police have spent much
:52:00. > :52:03.of the investigation searching houses owned by family and friends
:52:04. > :52:07.of Salman Abedi in Manchester. But it's his links to Libya
:52:08. > :52:10.that could give security Yesterday, his brother, Hashem,
:52:11. > :52:15.was detained in Libya for supporting And his father, Ramadan Abedi,
:52:16. > :52:24.whose Facebook shows him supporting fighters in Syria
:52:25. > :52:28.affiliated with Al-Qaeda. And then yesterday, moments
:52:29. > :52:31.after doing this interview, The BBC understands Salman Abedi's
:52:32. > :52:40.parents fled Libya to the UK in the 1990s, along with many other
:52:41. > :52:44.opponents of Colonel In 2004, a new relationship
:52:45. > :52:50.was established between Tony Blair and Colonel Gaddafi,
:52:51. > :52:52.which the British Government hoped would help in the fight
:52:53. > :52:54.against terrorism, but it meant focus by the British intelligence
:52:55. > :52:59.sources fell on many of those dissidents who had fled Libya
:53:00. > :53:01.and come to places like Manchester, amid fears they were
:53:02. > :53:08.aligned to Al-Qaeda. They say their jihad
:53:09. > :53:13.was against Gaddafi alone. They wanted him overthrown,
:53:14. > :53:16.and by 2011, as the Arab Spring grew, many of those who had fled
:53:17. > :53:19.the UK returned to Libya to topple Gaddafi, including
:53:20. > :53:21.the Manchester bomber's father, There was no single group
:53:22. > :53:25.in charge of the rebellion, and after Gaddafi was removed,
:53:26. > :53:28.some 1,700 armed groups emerged. Crucially, the so-called
:53:29. > :53:30.Islamic State was able to gain Whereas in recent years Libya
:53:31. > :53:37.was seen as a setting off point for foreign fighters
:53:38. > :53:39.making their way to join IS in Iraq or Syria,
:53:40. > :53:41.analysts now think the country, with its easy transport routes
:53:42. > :53:43.across the Mediterranean, is a magnet for extremists,
:53:44. > :53:45.determined to bring We're joined now from Teesside
:53:46. > :54:03.by the former British Ambassador Richard Bilton, what do you think is
:54:04. > :54:10.the significance of this Libyan connection to what happened in
:54:11. > :54:13.Manchester? The security services will always have had their eyes on
:54:14. > :54:21.that connection. Hitherto, they have judged it of relatively low
:54:22. > :54:27.priority, given the multiplicity of origins of other people of interest
:54:28. > :54:32.who might take extremist action. But an important thing to remember is
:54:33. > :54:40.that the Libyans were producing jihadis for Iraq long before the
:54:41. > :54:49.state collapsed with the revolution in 2011, and the further collapse in
:54:50. > :54:53.2013. So whereas we find that our own citizens can be radicalised at
:54:54. > :54:58.home, we find that the Belgians, the French have the same problem, there
:54:59. > :55:02.is sometimes an external element. And, at the moment, with this very
:55:03. > :55:08.preliminary stage of the investigation, we just don't know
:55:09. > :55:11.what part individuals in Libya played in getting Salman Abedi to
:55:12. > :55:12.that point on Monday Night Football indeed we don't know if he was
:55:13. > :55:23.trained or radicalised in Libya. But would you agree it is pretty
:55:24. > :55:29.much a failed state and therefore fertile ground for jihadis, isn't
:55:30. > :55:33.it? As I said, it was producing jihadis long before it was a failed
:55:34. > :55:36.state, and Belgium is not exactly a failed state but just some of the
:55:37. > :55:43.worst jihadi atrocities we have seen recently. But, yes, Libya has failed
:55:44. > :55:53.to make good on the promise of the revolution in 2012 and 2013. It has
:55:54. > :56:01.fallen to bits. But remember that the Islamic State presence in an
:56:02. > :56:04.area where Libyan authorities could not go and check what was going on
:56:05. > :56:13.has been extinguished by armed action from the next-door city, Ms
:56:14. > :56:18.Rutter, and there is an -- Ms Rutter clear macro Ms
:56:19. > :56:27.Libya is not as bad as Iraq and Syria as a source of grievance. But
:56:28. > :56:30.the other thing to remember is that enhancing what perhaps Mr Prescott
:56:31. > :56:35.was saying about looking at the narrative jihadi 's use to justify
:56:36. > :56:44.their actions, that is an essential part of the Prevent strategy. At
:56:45. > :56:51.present, we are simply not doing that. Not only did we kick over the
:56:52. > :56:57.hive in 2003 in an illegal invasion of Iraq, which led to the invasion
:56:58. > :57:00.of Islamist bodies turned into Islamic State, but by supporting
:57:01. > :57:15.Saudi Arabia in the dreadful we need to act justly overseas is
:57:16. > :57:20.one part, is more part may be, but a necessary part of the overall
:57:21. > :57:24.struggle to prevent people being radicalised. So what change,
:57:25. > :57:30.Ambassador, should there be in our foreign policy to achieve that?
:57:31. > :57:39.Well, we need to rein back from the war in Yemen, which incidentally has
:57:40. > :57:47.significantly enhanced the capacity of our card. Secondly -- of our.
:57:48. > :57:52.Secondly we need to adopt a more neutral position rather than
:57:53. > :57:57.standing back between Israel and its Palestinian neighbours, as we are
:57:58. > :58:01.doing so at present. Thirdly, we need to carry on the pursuit we are
:58:02. > :58:07.already engaged in of political settlements in both Iraq and Syria,
:58:08. > :58:13.and also in Libya, to try and create stable states, long term. Just
:58:14. > :58:19.briefly, Ambassador, are you optimistic that that agenda will be
:58:20. > :58:24.adopted, or is it unlikely? At present, it's unlikely because
:58:25. > :58:30.post-Brexit commercial considerations are too dominant in
:58:31. > :58:33.our foreign policy, at the expense of the search for creative
:58:34. > :58:38.solutions. So we are thinking in terms of alliances and sale, rather
:58:39. > :58:41.than getting to the roots of problems. All right, Ambassador,
:58:42. > :58:49.thank you for joining us on the Daily Politics will stop that is it.
:58:50. > :58:54.I will be back on BBC One tonight with another addition of Isco week,
:58:55. > :58:56.I hope you can join me.