:00:37. > :00:41.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:42. > :00:45.The hunt for the network behind the Manchester bomber Salman Abedi
:00:46. > :00:49.continues as another arrest is made and the terror threat
:00:50. > :00:51.remains at critical amidst fear of another device -
:00:52. > :00:57.In the wake of Monday's attack Jeremy Corbyn says we need
:00:58. > :00:59.a Foreign Policy that reduces rather than increases our
:01:00. > :01:09.Is the Labour leader right that the war on terror isn't working?
:01:10. > :01:12.We have their manifestos - but do the numbers in Labour
:01:13. > :01:15.and Conservative spending plans add up?
:01:16. > :01:18.And the south west of England used to be painted yellow.
:01:19. > :01:29.Can the Lib Dems make a comeback in their former heartlands?
:01:30. > :01:32.All that in the next hour and joining us for the whole
:01:33. > :01:37.hour are Ian Collins - he presents a radio show
:01:38. > :01:40.on LBC, and Rafael Behr who writes for the Guardian.
:01:41. > :01:43.First - eight men are now in custody in connection with Monday's bombing
:01:44. > :01:49.There's concern that the bomb carried by Salman Abedi was not
:01:50. > :01:51.the only device made by the terrorists -
:01:52. > :01:53.which is why the terror threat remains at critical, meaning another
:01:54. > :01:59.This morning, the Home Secretary, Amber Rudd, convened another meeting
:02:00. > :02:07.of the government's emergency committee, Cobra.
:02:08. > :02:15.We are still in the midst of this terror threat, with the threat level
:02:16. > :02:18.remaining at critical. How much support do you think the security
:02:19. > :02:24.services and the police are going to need? Clearly there will be things
:02:25. > :02:30.going on behind the scenes that we don't know about. At this stage so
:02:31. > :02:35.close to the atrocity of Monday, and with that still present in people's
:02:36. > :02:39.minds, I think the government and security services are asking for our
:02:40. > :02:43.trust and confidence that they are in control of events and doing what
:02:44. > :02:48.can be done. We are very much in that place where the politics of
:02:49. > :02:57.this have to be dialled down while we wait for the present emergency to
:02:58. > :03:00.pass. Amber Rudd said she did not expect this critical phase where we
:03:01. > :03:06.have the army on the streets to last more than a few days. But inevitably
:03:07. > :03:10.variable be broader questions about whether the right resources have
:03:11. > :03:14.been allocated -- there will be broader questions. I'm not sure we
:03:15. > :03:17.are contrary in that place yet as a country to have a very heated
:03:18. > :03:23.political debate about that, but maybe we are. That will shift in the
:03:24. > :03:27.next you days. It is a difficult balance to strike because
:03:28. > :03:32.campaigning has started again, but in all of our minds are the images
:03:33. > :03:38.after the Manchester Arena bombing and the outpouring of grief that has
:03:39. > :03:41.followed. In all of our minds, apart from Jeremy Corbyn, it seems, after
:03:42. > :03:44.the disgraceful episode we have seen and his comments about using an
:03:45. > :03:51.attack like this to further his election campaign. Which is clearly
:03:52. > :03:56.what he's doing, what ever way you slice it, and that very unhelpful.
:03:57. > :04:00.The other thing about this, we see this every single time we have an
:04:01. > :04:03.attack, the intelligence services pick up and make multiple arrests
:04:04. > :04:07.and that says they already know where many of these people are, and
:04:08. > :04:11.if they already knew where they were, and we will talk about this
:04:12. > :04:16.later, but if they already knew, why would those people not already in
:04:17. > :04:18.custody? It is the lack of any coherent common-sense approach which
:04:19. > :04:23.makes people are scratching their head. We have done the vigils and
:04:24. > :04:33.praying, but can we have some action? You have raised that issue.
:04:34. > :04:38.What is interesting, recently don't know the attacks that have been
:04:39. > :04:43.prevented. True. To suggest there is a simple template that could have
:04:44. > :04:50.been used but wasn't, that isn't necessarily... The security services
:04:51. > :04:55.say there are 3000 people they are interested in. 500 active
:04:56. > :04:58.investigations. You could argue the security services are using this to
:04:59. > :05:06.call for more support and more resources, but Salman Abedi was
:05:07. > :05:09.known, not one of the 500, but his case was under review and people
:05:10. > :05:17.will ask questions about that. Absolutely. You have this problem
:05:18. > :05:21.essentially, people can be suspected of involvement without having
:05:22. > :05:25.committed a crime, and therefore if the call is that you scoop up
:05:26. > :05:31.everyone who has been suspected of involvement in terrorist thinking,
:05:32. > :05:34.discussions, this can lead to terror plotting, then you are a criminal
:05:35. > :05:39.and you can be arrested, so this is not necessarily as clear as you
:05:40. > :05:45.might think, to find everyone who is thinking what thoughts and either
:05:46. > :05:49.lock them up. No one is arguing for that, but by the same token it
:05:50. > :05:52.appears that there is clearly a lack of something, no one can quite
:05:53. > :05:57.identify. Everyone says kind words and we are sorry for what has
:05:58. > :06:02.happened. We don't want to upset that particular community, but
:06:03. > :06:05.nothing is really being done. We saw the ongoing investigation and the
:06:06. > :06:09.fact the people are looking for what they think is the extension of a
:06:10. > :06:14.terror network or some sort of bomb-making materials. We can hear
:06:15. > :06:21.from the Home Secretary Amber Rudd. I've just shared Cobra to give an
:06:22. > :06:30.update on the atrocious incident on Monday night. 22 people have died
:06:31. > :06:33.and nearly 60 people still in hospital, and meanwhile the
:06:34. > :06:38.investigation continues and eight people are in custody, it is a live
:06:39. > :06:41.operation and that will continue. In the meantime I but like to thank the
:06:42. > :06:47.police for the really good work that they are doing -- I would. The level
:06:48. > :06:51.of threat will remain at critical while the operation continues. The
:06:52. > :06:57.military are continuing to support the police under the operation, and
:06:58. > :07:01.parents as members of the military assisting in that, and I want to
:07:02. > :07:07.thank them -- and a thousand members of the military are assisting in
:07:08. > :07:11.that. That was Theresa May. -- that was Amber Rudd.
:07:12. > :07:15.Now - Theresa May is in Sicily this morning at a meeting of the G7 group
:07:16. > :07:18.We're joined from there by BBC's Deputy political
:07:19. > :07:24.What are we expecting to hear from Theresa May this morning? The G7
:07:25. > :07:27.meetings will start very quickly, they have been gathering and
:07:28. > :07:31.watching a spectacular fly past from the Italian air force will stop the
:07:32. > :07:34.first discussion is about counterterrorism and security and
:07:35. > :07:39.they will be looking to reach agreement on that, and there will be
:07:40. > :07:44.a statement of agreement later in the day. Theresa May would like to
:07:45. > :07:49.contribute her thoughts on the importance of tackling online
:07:50. > :07:53.extremism. Getting the major economies to put pressure on
:07:54. > :07:57.internet companies to identify dangerous content, and block
:07:58. > :08:02.dangerous individuals and to report relevant material to the authorities
:08:03. > :08:06.and to get going on the international front to deal with
:08:07. > :08:10.what is an international problem. She has said the fight against Isis
:08:11. > :08:15.has moved from the battlefield to the internet, and clearly a relevant
:08:16. > :08:20.point, but it is a much broader conversation than simply online.
:08:21. > :08:25.What kind of support issue likely to get from other world leaders? Later
:08:26. > :08:31.in the day, there will be a statement ahead of the end of this
:08:32. > :08:33.G7 summit, by way of an interim statement which will state the
:08:34. > :08:38.agreement of the leaders to work more closely together. In
:08:39. > :08:45.confronting terrorism on various fronts. You can compile a long list
:08:46. > :08:50.of those areas for action. Tackling areas of funding and action in terms
:08:51. > :08:54.of sharing knowledge and expertise in dealing with radicalisation, all
:08:55. > :09:00.of these things can be helped by one partner with another as well as
:09:01. > :09:06.tackling a particular nation. There will be a joint front at the G7 but
:09:07. > :09:12.it is an enormous problem and it won't be sold here by any means. --
:09:13. > :09:16.solved. This is a small measure which could be perceived, compared
:09:17. > :09:22.to what needs to be done broadly across Britain and the rest of the
:09:23. > :09:27.world. Will there be any action? Indisputably this is a small thing,
:09:28. > :09:33.when you look at the scale of the problem, countering radicalisation,
:09:34. > :09:40.for example, that is a problem with very deep roots inside communities.
:09:41. > :09:43.You could argue if Britain's way of dealing with this, the Prevent
:09:44. > :09:48.strategy is effective or not, and I think there are arguing is to be
:09:49. > :09:51.made on both sides of the question. You can broaden this out to
:09:52. > :09:58.questions of conflict and boots on the ground and air planes overhead
:09:59. > :10:01.and how effective that is or isn't. Yesterday we saw Nato countries
:10:02. > :10:06.agreeing to join the coalition against Isis in Syria and Iraq, that
:10:07. > :10:09.means a long engagement, helping hostile flights and that kind of
:10:10. > :10:13.thing, and you made the point very well. This is not a problem that
:10:14. > :10:19.will yield to a particular individual solution. Even then, no
:10:20. > :10:24.matter how many solutions, it will not be dealt with any time soon. You
:10:25. > :10:28.are close to the Theresa May camp and following the dreadful terror
:10:29. > :10:37.attack in Manchester. We are now resuming campaigning in this general
:10:38. > :10:42.election. And Uppal has indicated -- and a poll has indicated a dramatic
:10:43. > :10:46.drop of support for the Conservatives, they are now ahead of
:10:47. > :10:53.Labour by just five points, according to one poll. What is in
:10:54. > :10:58.the mood of the Theresa May camp? This is just one opinion poll. If
:10:59. > :11:03.there are other polls which support the idea that their lead has shrunk
:11:04. > :11:09.significantly, there will be some consternation in the Tory ranks. The
:11:10. > :11:13.polls to move this way and that in the course of the campaign, and at
:11:14. > :11:17.the end you often see a result which was not dissimilar to that at the
:11:18. > :11:22.outset. As to Theresa May, I was up close and personal -- I have not
:11:23. > :11:27.been up close and personal with her, but she is giving a news conference
:11:28. > :11:32.and it will be interesting to see how the transition from the post
:11:33. > :11:36.Manchester outrage phase of a political truce moves very rapidly
:11:37. > :11:40.into one of engagement. I don't think the Prime Minister will be
:11:41. > :11:44.attacking Jeremy Corbyn on the question of security. She doesn't
:11:45. > :11:53.need to. That is front of the agenda and that will be there for some
:11:54. > :11:56.time. What do you make? It is one poll which has suggested a big drop
:11:57. > :12:00.and you could understand if there were jitters in the Theresa May
:12:01. > :12:08.camp. They're absolutely is. They are the architects of their own
:12:09. > :12:11.downfall. Theresa May still comes ahead of Jeremy Corbyn on the issue
:12:12. > :12:17.of security and personal ratings, which suggests it might not be
:12:18. > :12:23.because of Manchester, it is probably because of the disastrous
:12:24. > :12:28.manifesto. Someone said to me, why the Tories not costing their
:12:29. > :12:33.manifesto? They are not giving you anything, there is nothing to cost,
:12:34. > :12:38.frankly, there's not much in there. It is a rather bleak retail
:12:39. > :12:42.offering? Yes. Jeremy Corbyn's offering is a wish list, very nice
:12:43. > :12:49.things of things that people will get. Theresa May wanted to fight a
:12:50. > :12:53.presidential style campaign on the proposition that you could trust her
:12:54. > :12:59.strong stable, strong stable, we knew the mantra, but if that is sure
:13:00. > :13:04.position, you cannot let your manifesto slip through your fingers
:13:05. > :13:08.and do a massive U-turn -- if that is your position. I'm not sure
:13:09. > :13:12.Theresa May had established enough of a record of achievement to fight
:13:13. > :13:19.began a campaign she wanted to fight. It was very brittle and that
:13:20. > :13:24.is why it is changing. This is mid-campaign turbulence and we need
:13:25. > :13:27.to be careful about that. Why bring up things like fox hunting and the
:13:28. > :13:32.social care thing did not even need to be in their manifesto? Some
:13:33. > :13:39.people have said it was brave for them to tackle it. It has backfired
:13:40. > :13:42.on them. It is complacency. Maybe they can say they are justified, the
:13:43. > :13:47.older people who are going to turn out, who are backing Theresa May, by
:13:48. > :13:51.huge margin, they are in the right kind of seats and maybe they thought
:13:52. > :13:58.they can afford to put up the manifesto that gives them license to
:13:59. > :14:01.do difficult things. They might have underestimated the way that Labour
:14:02. > :14:03.could organise their own counter opposition.
:14:04. > :14:06.Monday's suicide bomb was the latest manifestation of Islamist
:14:07. > :14:11.Sweden, Germany, and Belgium have all suffered major attacks in recent
:14:12. > :14:14.years but the worst affected country has been France - often perpetrated
:14:15. > :14:20.As a result, the country has been grappling with difficult
:14:21. > :14:22.questions around integration, and national identity -
:14:23. > :14:24.questions that are now also being asked in this country.
:14:25. > :14:27.Ellie Price has taken a look at what happened in France and how
:14:28. > :14:36.January 2015, a gun assault on the offices of Charlie Hebdo.
:14:37. > :14:43.In November that year, on the streets of Paris,
:14:44. > :14:47.gunmen and suicide bombers hit a concert hall, major stadium,
:14:48. > :14:56.restaurants and bars in Paris, leaving 130 people dead.
:14:57. > :15:00.In July 2016, at least 84 people were killed in Nice after a lorry
:15:01. > :15:04.ploughed through a crowd celebrating Bastille Day.
:15:05. > :15:06.There were numerous other attacks, as well, on a smaller
:15:07. > :15:14.240 people have been killed by terrorists since 2015.
:15:15. > :15:16.In the immediate aftermath of the Charlie Hebdo attack
:15:17. > :15:18.the French government mobilised 10,000 troops on its own
:15:19. > :15:26.Following the Paris attacks, the state of emergency
:15:27. > :15:29.was introduced, meant as a temporary measure, it's been in place ever
:15:30. > :15:31.since, giving the authorities power to set curfews,
:15:32. > :15:37.And it granted greater surveillance powers to the security services.
:15:38. > :15:40.Most of the attacks were perpetrated by home-grown terrorists with a
:15:41. > :15:44.majority on the government's high secure the watch list.
:15:45. > :15:46.Aside from missed opportunities by security services,
:15:47. > :15:48.many critics say this also points to failures
:15:49. > :15:49.in France's attempts to
:15:50. > :15:57.In an attempt to address that, in 2011, France
:15:58. > :15:59.became the first European country to ban the full face Islamic
:16:00. > :16:05.But it was a controversial decision, that some
:16:06. > :16:09.argued created more problems than it solved.
:16:10. > :16:12.With one of the biggest populations in Western Europe,
:16:13. > :16:16.France is still coming to terms with its relationship with Islam.
:16:17. > :16:25.And I'm joined now by the French political scientist, Giles Kepel.
:16:26. > :16:31.Welcome to the daily politics, in the wake of a major attack like this
:16:32. > :16:38.week's in Manchester, carried out by a terrorist born and lived in this
:16:39. > :16:41.country, it is inevitable there will be questions about integration,
:16:42. > :16:46.France has been grappling with this issue and I think it is fair to say
:16:47. > :16:52.it has not been successful No country has been successful I have
:16:53. > :16:58.to say. We suffer 139 people who died between the attack on Charlie
:16:59. > :17:05.Hebdo and the stabbing of the Catholic priest in his church in
:17:06. > :17:11.Normandy in July 2016. What was very striking was that even though the
:17:12. > :17:15.terrorist and the Jihadist tried to take the French presidential
:17:16. > :17:20.election hostage of that, there were no successful attacks since then.
:17:21. > :17:24.From July last year, to the first round of presidential election,
:17:25. > :17:28.except for a man who gunned a policeman in Paris, who had a
:17:29. > :17:35.criminal record, the French authorities have been able to sort
:17:36. > :17:43.of get deep into the Jihadist networks and foil most of the
:17:44. > :17:50.planned attacks. Four Jihadists it is an important thing to enter
:17:51. > :17:55.institutionalised politics to torpedo them. This they could not
:17:56. > :17:58.do, because they hoped Marine Le Pen would win and they can say the
:17:59. > :18:02.French or the Brits are racist and the vote of the extreme right. So
:18:03. > :18:07.you have no hope in integrating into society and you have to cling to
:18:08. > :18:16.your ascribed identity. Look what they did in Manchester, they were
:18:17. > :18:19.able to torpedo momently the campaign was suspended. For them
:18:20. > :18:27.this is a success. What I'm interested in is the causes behind
:18:28. > :18:31.this Jihadist movement and why it arises from home grown terrorists in
:18:32. > :18:38.countries like France and Britain and there is anything that can be
:18:39. > :18:42.shared in terms of lessons. Fraps France has a different approach and
:18:43. > :18:45.therefore would you agree a different type of relationship
:18:46. > :18:53.between minorities and the wider population? To an extent, but when
:18:54. > :18:59.you deal with those things, it is also an issue of global Jihadism and
:19:00. > :19:08.what we are confronting and this I explain in the book is the third
:19:09. > :19:13.wave of Jihadism. That is to say in 2005, Syrian engineer who was
:19:14. > :19:23.trained in France, but lived for a long time in London, which at the
:19:24. > :19:28.time had auld the chief Islamist. It was decided Osama Bin Laden had
:19:29. > :19:34.failed and Europe was to be the locus of Jihad and it was the soft
:19:35. > :19:43.underbelly of the west and a bottom up Jihadism that would see, would be
:19:44. > :19:48.soldiers, the disenfranchised Muslims in the west and this creates
:19:49. > :19:52.a new understanding of Jihadism. France was hardly hit. It is now
:19:53. > :19:57.less hit. And the focus has shifted on to Germany and to Britain. But
:19:58. > :20:04.France has been hit in a very major way and some of the accusations have
:20:05. > :20:08.been France's failure to integrate parts of its Muslim community and
:20:09. > :20:14.Britain would probably say that they have done a better job of that in
:20:15. > :20:18.broad terms. So what I want to get to the bottom of is do you think in
:20:19. > :20:23.the end France's policies to things like banning the burka, have they
:20:24. > :20:29.further alienated the Muslim community or have they been the
:20:30. > :20:33.right thing to do. I don't think they have alienated the us mum
:20:34. > :20:38.community more. We heard people bragging here that you know the
:20:39. > :20:45.reason why France was attacked, because it was too secularist. So
:20:46. > :20:49.you had this great thing with sharia council reigns in parts of
:20:50. > :20:55.Birmingham and the man who attacked Westminster was someone who came
:20:56. > :21:01.from those areas. The blame game between France and Britain is
:21:02. > :21:07.irrelevant. The issue is to understand why this Jihadist
:21:08. > :21:12.ideology has been able to capitalise on disenfranchisement, whether
:21:13. > :21:16.because people think they're too secular or too communalist, but we
:21:17. > :21:20.are facing a shared threat and I think lessons from what happened in
:21:21. > :21:24.France and from the fact that the French authorities were able to foil
:21:25. > :21:28.those attacks and that the presidential election was not
:21:29. > :21:35.hostage is important. Let me bring in my other guests. Do you think the
:21:36. > :21:38.key question is here is why do people become Jihadists, the
:21:39. > :21:47.suggestion is some are just criminals, some are very vulnerable
:21:48. > :21:53.and vulnerable to be brainwashed by more sophisticated people. And does
:21:54. > :21:58.our domestic policy play a part? This is a massive question. What is
:21:59. > :22:03.interesting is you have to disentangle what are causes of
:22:04. > :22:14.terrorism, the causes that lead people to go down the path of
:22:15. > :22:20.radicalisation and what is moral culpability. Jeremy Corbyn said
:22:21. > :22:24.there is an element of western policy used by Jihadist in their
:22:25. > :22:29.recruitment and can be seen as a provocation. That is different from
:22:30. > :22:34.saying the west has morally brought this on itself. You have to
:22:35. > :22:39.understand that ultimately there, people have agency and somebody
:22:40. > :22:44.chooses to kill innocent people, that is an absolute moral thing you
:22:45. > :22:52.have to condemn and then separately bring your analysis on to how did
:22:53. > :22:57.that person get into a situation where they adopted a view of the
:22:58. > :23:02.world that made them think they had a moral imperative to attack. I
:23:03. > :23:06.think it is about more, the idea it is about foreign policy and stuff we
:23:07. > :23:11.have done is a bit of a red herring, if you look at countries, we have
:23:12. > :23:21.mentioned Belgium and Sweden. And France. Madrid of course. I Jakarta
:23:22. > :23:25.there was an attack. What about integration policies at home have
:23:26. > :23:32.they worked or fail? I think they have failed. We have almost been a
:23:33. > :23:37.victim of our tolerance. But has it worked? Clearly not? Do you agree,
:23:38. > :23:42.you say you're a man of the left, but you are critical of the left in
:23:43. > :23:48.France, because you agree with the comment made there that actually the
:23:49. > :23:51.left has been too accommodating of Islamists in France. I would like to
:23:52. > :23:54.go back to the issue of Jeremy Corbyn. We are going to talk about
:23:55. > :24:00.that in a moment. If you could answer that question. Well, you
:24:01. > :24:12.know, Francois Hollande was the first man who was... And we were the
:24:13. > :24:19.worst targeted people. Those remarks are not interfering to British
:24:20. > :24:25.politics. S. Integration, we have all failed. It is not because we are
:24:26. > :24:30.culprits, because we are facing an economic model that has changed and
:24:31. > :24:36.we are into the digital economy and the French were among the Europeans
:24:37. > :24:41.least able to manage this change, because of the heavily unionised
:24:42. > :24:46.system and other issues. This is why Emmanuel Macron was elected, because
:24:47. > :24:50.this is a man who campaigned for Europe and no politician in is this
:24:51. > :24:55.country. That is why he won. Yes, The Thought he could address this
:24:56. > :25:00.issue of disenfranchisement and this is a major point that we have to
:25:01. > :25:04.take into consideration. But in other parts of Europe politic has
:25:05. > :25:09.been polarised, let's talk about the question you did want to answer
:25:10. > :25:14.before, which is do you think Jeremy Corbyn has a point, do you agree
:25:15. > :25:19.with the idea that foreign policy has to some extent arguably perhaps
:25:20. > :25:24.driven some of what's happened? Well the mix of foreign policy and
:25:25. > :25:31.domestic policy is important and the borders have disappeared. Where are
:25:32. > :25:38.we? Are we in Europe or not. Is North Africa part of France. The
:25:39. > :25:45.empire strikes paradigm... Your policies have contributed do you
:25:46. > :25:50.think? They're part and parcel and Isis always claim it is retaliation
:25:51. > :25:52.against a bombing or the territory. You don't murder children because of
:25:53. > :26:01.foreign policy. Absolutely. What they say and and this why I think
:26:02. > :26:06.Jeremy Corbyn buys into the Islamist narrative. I follow the chat rooms
:26:07. > :26:10.of those people and they say you kill our children, because of the
:26:11. > :26:25.bombings and so we kill your children. It is a tit for tat. This
:26:26. > :26:29.is the propaganda to galvanise. . It does not work when you kill
:26:30. > :26:36.children, there was an eight-year-old killed in Manchester,
:26:37. > :26:41.on 19th March in Toulouse a man killed three young Jewish pupils at
:26:42. > :26:45.a school. They would say because Jewish pupils would be soldiers in
:26:46. > :26:49.the Israeli army in the future. So we are killing the would be
:26:50. > :26:54.soldiers. This you know, functions only for the most hard core people.
:26:55. > :26:58.I think they do not manage to mobilise people. You have violence,
:26:59. > :27:03.violence after a while if it does not work, turn against its own
:27:04. > :27:05.perpetrators. This is what the Jihadists had to change their models
:27:06. > :27:09.chl Thank you. Now, with the general election
:27:10. > :27:12.firing on all cylinders once again, Jeremy Corbyn has given his first
:27:13. > :27:14.speech of the restarted campaign. Speaking in London today,
:27:15. > :27:16.he focused on counter-terrorism and presenting what he described
:27:17. > :27:19.as Labour's different approach "No government can prevent
:27:20. > :27:25.every terrorist attack." But he went on to say
:27:26. > :27:28.that it is the responsibility of government to minimise the risk
:27:29. > :27:32.posed by terrorists. Under a Labour government,
:27:33. > :27:34.there would be "more He also said that the security
:27:35. > :27:39.services will get more And Mr Corbyn said that,
:27:40. > :27:44.in the view of many experts, there are "connections
:27:45. > :27:46.between wars our government has supported or fought in other
:27:47. > :27:48.countries, such as Libya, But he also said that his
:27:49. > :27:57.assessment "in no way reduces He went on to say that an "informed
:27:58. > :28:02.understanding of the causes of terrorism" is an essential part
:28:03. > :28:06.of an effective security strategy. And Jeremy Corbyn said
:28:07. > :28:08.that the so-called "war on terror He said that a future Labour
:28:09. > :28:13.government would think of what he called a "smarter way"
:28:14. > :28:17.to reduce the threat of terrorism. Here's some of what the Labour
:28:18. > :28:22.leader had to say. We must be brave enough
:28:23. > :28:24.to admit that the war We need a smarter way to reduce
:28:25. > :28:30.the threat from countries that nurture terrorists
:28:31. > :28:34.and generate terrorism. That's why I set out
:28:35. > :28:36.Labour's approach to foreign It is focused on strengthening
:28:37. > :28:42.our national security We must support our Armed Forces,
:28:43. > :28:49.Foreign Office, international development professionals
:28:50. > :28:53.and diplomats, engaging with the world in a way that
:28:54. > :28:55.reduces conflict and builds Seeing the army on our own streets
:28:56. > :29:03.today is a stark reminder that the current approach isn't
:29:04. > :29:07.really working so well. So I would like to take a moment
:29:08. > :29:10.to speak to our soldiers You are doing your duty as you have
:29:11. > :29:15.done so many times before. I want to assure you that
:29:16. > :29:21.under my leadership you will only be deployed abroad when there
:29:22. > :29:26.is a clear need and only when there is a plan that
:29:27. > :29:31.you have the resources to do your job and secure an outcome
:29:32. > :29:35.that delivers lasting peace. We'll be speaking to the shadow
:29:36. > :29:38.International Trade Secretary, First let's hear from former Labour
:29:39. > :29:49.MP, Tom Harris who is in Glasgow. Is it appropriate to make a speech
:29:50. > :29:54.like the one Jeremy Corbyn has made today? It is appropriate to talk
:29:55. > :29:56.about the threat of terrorism, entirely appropriate that we have
:29:57. > :30:01.that debate because we haven't really had that debate in this
:30:02. > :30:04.country so far, and if we aren't going to do it in the aftermath of
:30:05. > :30:10.the terrible events, when else to do it? But I have grave reservations
:30:11. > :30:16.about the tone and content of what Jeremy Corbyn is saying.
:30:17. > :30:22.Essentially, and I have not read every single word of the speech, but
:30:23. > :30:27.as far as I can see from the report, he has spoken about the cob ability
:30:28. > :30:33.of the West which is a theme he has pursued for the last 30 years -- cob
:30:34. > :30:39.ability. He has not said anything about Islamism which is the root
:30:40. > :30:44.cause of the domestic and international terrorism. He says
:30:45. > :30:46.some of the foreign policy could contribute to some of the violent
:30:47. > :30:53.acts which have been perpetrated in recent years. He is buying into the
:30:54. > :30:58.Islamist agenda entirely. If you look at what Isis are saying, they
:30:59. > :31:03.are the most obvious representation of Islamism in the world. They
:31:04. > :31:09.actually have said unequivocally that even if you stop invading our
:31:10. > :31:15.lands and stop torturing us, we will hate you and we will continue to
:31:16. > :31:18.attack you. Islamism is about hating Western values and hating democracy
:31:19. > :31:22.and hating the fact that in this country and other Western
:31:23. > :31:25.democracies women, heaven forbid, are able to leave their homes
:31:26. > :31:30.without their husbands permission. That offends Islamist 's and even if
:31:31. > :31:34.there was no invasion of any other countries, they would still hate us
:31:35. > :31:43.and they would still kill us. The World Trade Centre was attacked in
:31:44. > :31:48.1993, first of all, ten years before the invasion of Iraq. Is Jeremy
:31:49. > :31:55.Corbyn like to say that the war on terror hasn't worked? -- right to
:31:56. > :32:02.say. We don't know what level of threat we would have if the military
:32:03. > :32:08.action had not been taken. If anything we have been too tolerant
:32:09. > :32:12.of militant Islamism, we have tried to kid ourselves that we could come
:32:13. > :32:16.to some kind of understanding, but Islamism is a dreadful death
:32:17. > :32:20.worshipping philosophy which needs to be defeated militarily and
:32:21. > :32:25.domestically through policy and there is no alternative to the end
:32:26. > :32:31.of this particular conflict. You voted in favour of the Iraq war. Has
:32:32. > :32:37.Jeremy Corbyn been proven right by being against it from the start? I
:32:38. > :32:43.don't think so. He has been against Iraq as he has been against every
:32:44. > :32:49.military intervention. They intervened in Kosovo to stop the
:32:50. > :32:51.murder of thousands of Muslim civilians and Jeremy Corbyn demanded
:32:52. > :32:58.that the military action should stop. Let's think, if we stop
:32:59. > :33:02.military interventions, what happens when the Islamist 's continued to
:33:03. > :33:10.kill our children when they go to pop concerts? What happens when we
:33:11. > :33:16.have done everything the Islamist people demand, what happens when we
:33:17. > :33:20.stop sending troops abroad to do good and yet we are still the
:33:21. > :33:22.victims of this evil philosophy? What do people like Jeremy Corbyn
:33:23. > :33:25.then say? Tom Harris, thanks. And I'm joined now by the Shadow
:33:26. > :33:27.International Trade Secretary, Barry Gardiner and Conservative
:33:28. > :33:35.Johnny Mercer is in What do you say in response to Tom
:33:36. > :33:42.Harris who has said Jeremy Corbyn has bought into the Islamist agenda?
:33:43. > :33:47.I say not at all, because what Jeremy is pointing out, that there
:33:48. > :33:52.is absolutely no justification for the horrific events in Manchester,
:33:53. > :33:58.absolutely none, nothing can justify that and there is no moral
:33:59. > :34:03.equivalence in any way between British action abroad anti-terrorist
:34:04. > :34:07.action that attacked that concept -- and the terrorist action. What
:34:08. > :34:13.Jeremy Corbyn has said is in tune with what the US intelligence has
:34:14. > :34:21.pointed out, and with what Stella Rimington has said, two former heads
:34:22. > :34:24.of MI5, one says, whatever the merits of putting the end to Saddam
:34:25. > :34:28.Hussein, the war was a distraction from the peashooter of Al-Qaeda and
:34:29. > :34:37.an increase to the terrorist threat -- from the pursuit of Al-Qaeda. It
:34:38. > :34:41.provided an arena for jihad for which she had called so many of his
:34:42. > :34:46.supporters included -- for which he had called and so many of his
:34:47. > :34:52.supporters including British citizens, travelled to fight. You
:34:53. > :34:57.are saying some British policy has led to the attack in Manchester? No,
:34:58. > :35:02.there is no direct causal relationship. What part of British
:35:03. > :35:11.policy would you have changed to prevent subsequent terrorist
:35:12. > :35:19.attacks? What she is saying... I want to know what you are saying. It
:35:20. > :35:23.is the same thing. You cannot ignore the recruiting Sergeant effect of
:35:24. > :35:28.those conflicts and the way they were conducted without having
:35:29. > :35:32.stabilisation in the country in the aftermath as the primary focus
:35:33. > :35:37.because we know that these terrorist groups actually thrive on
:35:38. > :35:43.instability. So would you have air strikes in Libya? Let me be clear, I
:35:44. > :35:48.was one of the people who did vote against the air strikes in Libya.
:35:49. > :35:53.And look at what is happening in Libya today, women are being sold in
:35:54. > :35:59.slave markets in Libya. Because of the complete failure to stabilise
:36:00. > :36:03.that country. Johnny Mercer, there has been a political vacuum in Libya
:36:04. > :36:07.and Britain has been criticised for not having followed up the air
:36:08. > :36:16.strikes that were conducted and Salman Abedi's family at his from
:36:17. > :36:20.Libya. -- is from Libya. I would say to anyone watching that the Libyan
:36:21. > :36:24.intervention was done on a very specific challenge of rescuing a
:36:25. > :36:29.group of people who were going to get massacred at the time. What has
:36:30. > :36:33.happened in that country is of deep regret, you can see the challenges
:36:34. > :36:38.that there, but do not accept that doing nothing is always the answer
:36:39. > :36:42.and I think Jeremy Corbyn's speech but lies a complete
:36:43. > :36:45.misunderstanding. These terrorists use this narrative after they have
:36:46. > :36:49.done something, things like the world trade centre, that happened
:36:50. > :36:53.before Iraq. It is making things up to get elected, and he could be
:36:54. > :36:59.Prime Minister, the fact that is extraordinary. It is not about doing
:37:00. > :37:01.nothing. What Jeremy has always been clear on and what many people in
:37:02. > :37:06.this country are clear about, military action where it is
:37:07. > :37:10.sanctioned by the United Nations and where it is done in concert with
:37:11. > :37:15.other countries and where it can have a clear plan to stabilise the
:37:16. > :37:22.country that is being attacked or intervened on, that is something...
:37:23. > :37:30.One of the military interventions that Jeremy supported was East Timor
:37:31. > :37:37.which have those bits in place, and that was what the big conflict that
:37:38. > :37:42.Robin Cook resigned about over, Iraq, the plan in place will stop
:37:43. > :37:47.Kosovo, what happened at the end was Russia had to be brought into play
:37:48. > :37:55.to make sure that we had the wider international community to broker
:37:56. > :38:02.peace. Tony Blair went in without the United Nations, Jeremy Corbyn
:38:03. > :38:03.would not have done that. Yes, he would have wanted wider
:38:04. > :38:08.international involvement, and if you look at the end in Kosovo, that
:38:09. > :38:13.is what has taken place. There always has to be a United Nations
:38:14. > :38:19.security resolution before Britain gets involved in any military
:38:20. > :38:28.action? Not if it is to defend an ally or to stop our country from
:38:29. > :38:31.being under direct attack. Jeremy Corbyn said the UK cannot be
:38:32. > :38:37.protected and cared for on the cheap. He's referring to the cuts
:38:38. > :38:41.that have been made by the coalition government and the Conservative
:38:42. > :38:46.government since to the police and our Armed Forces, and he is right.
:38:47. > :38:52.He's not right. Those cuts have taken place. Counterterrorism has
:38:53. > :38:58.been protected since 2010 and increased since 2015, and defence
:38:59. > :39:01.expenditure is going up, but the specific budget you are talking
:39:02. > :39:07.about, counterterrorism, going against these threats, it
:39:08. > :39:11.constitutes a lot of efforts, the Prevent programme, within the
:39:12. > :39:13.intelligence services are the police couldn't you have a certain amount
:39:14. > :39:20.of money and you try to challenge what is going on -- and the police,
:39:21. > :39:25.you have a certain amount of money. Does that mean we have less
:39:26. > :39:27.capability? No, it doesn't. If it was simply in numbers then North
:39:28. > :39:33.Korea would have a great army, but they don't. You can understand why
:39:34. > :39:36.the Labour Party is either capitalising if you want to use that
:39:37. > :39:40.word on the fact the Tories have long claimed that you are the party
:39:41. > :39:43.of law and order and the Armed Forces, but when you look at the
:39:44. > :39:53.figures the number of soldiers has gone down from 102,300, now to just
:39:54. > :39:57.70 8000. It doesn't make sense. If you are going to talk tough after a
:39:58. > :40:00.big attack like this, and it looks as if we don't have enough boots on
:40:01. > :40:08.the ground, are people going to lose faith? The issue with the candid
:40:09. > :40:11.intelligence -- counterintelligence fight, much of it is kept from the
:40:12. > :40:18.public for reasons of necessity. The idea that we have done something
:40:19. > :40:22.which is a failure is pretty offensive, and how could Barry and
:40:23. > :40:26.Jeremy and anybody else, with their magic roundabout on foreign policy,
:40:27. > :40:30.think what UK would be like without the efforts we have seen from our
:40:31. > :40:34.great security services who have been resourced. There are challenges
:40:35. > :40:38.about the economy which crashed under the Labour government in 2010,
:40:39. > :40:43.but how could anyone know what the UK would look like today? It is
:40:44. > :40:47.pretty disingenuous. Then you look at the War on terror and what people
:40:48. > :40:51.have contributed for the freedoms we enjoy, yes, one has got through in
:40:52. > :40:56.Manchester, it is terrible for the people, but let's have reality. We
:40:57. > :40:59.live in a safe country and we are very fortunate, we have great
:41:00. > :41:09.security services, yes, we must work hard. It is not wholly disingenuous
:41:10. > :41:13.to imply that... For Jeremy Corbyn to imply that there is a link
:41:14. > :41:18.between our intervening in conflicts abroad and the problems at home? How
:41:19. > :41:22.do you explain the attacks that have occurred in the Muslim world which
:41:23. > :41:28.have killed thousands of Muslims? Is that our foreign policy to blame?
:41:29. > :41:31.What about the deadly attacks in Madrid question what they were
:41:32. > :41:38.involved in the Iraq war, but that killed 192 people -- in Madrid? Was
:41:39. > :41:43.that down to foreign policy? Let me be clear about this. The Islamist
:41:44. > :41:50.worldview existed prior to all of these things and it is there, but
:41:51. > :41:57.what Jeremy is talking about and what others are talking about. Is
:41:58. > :42:04.the radicalisation of young Muslims in this country. As a result of
:42:05. > :42:07.British foreign policy? Is helped by then using it as a cause celebre,
:42:08. > :42:13.but going back to the point you were making about the policing and the
:42:14. > :42:19.front line... Which way did you vote in the Iraq war? I voted in favour.
:42:20. > :42:25.That contradicts everything you have said in his interview, you voted the
:42:26. > :42:31.something that acted as a recruiting act. I did, but maybe that was my
:42:32. > :42:36.mistake. Within four weeks of that conflict I was in the House of
:42:37. > :42:39.Commons, we had the debate, and I was arguing that we will not doing
:42:40. > :42:45.what we should have been about stabilising the country and leaving
:42:46. > :42:48.people from the Army with their weapons to go back without any
:42:49. > :42:56.income and that is exactly the chaos that we left behind. Can I just
:42:57. > :42:59.finish. It is important to get the narrative here, and the logic,
:43:00. > :43:08.because as we know, many attacks took place before the recent foreign
:43:09. > :43:11.policy intervention. In terms of, are you saying that our foreign
:43:12. > :43:16.policy should now be guided in order to avoid being a recruiting Sergeant
:43:17. > :43:21.and should be guided on not upsetting anyone? If we are going to
:43:22. > :43:26.have a foreign policy that is not going to act as a recruiting
:43:27. > :43:29.Sergeant, anyway, like Libya, because the Manchester Thunder's
:43:30. > :43:39.family were opponents of Gaddafi in Libya. -- Manchester bomber's
:43:40. > :43:44.family. The Abedi family had fled Libya and come back here, but then
:43:45. > :43:48.they went back to Libya. In a way they should have welcomed the
:43:49. > :43:51.intervention. But they didn't, and we had a chaotic state in the
:43:52. > :43:54.country which enabled the terrorist groups to set up their camps and
:43:55. > :44:01.train people and to radicalise them through that warped ideology. The
:44:02. > :44:04.point about the policing, the police are the front line intelligence
:44:05. > :44:09.service with our communities in the UK and we have seen so many young
:44:10. > :44:13.men from the UK who have become radicalised and who have become the
:44:14. > :44:16.terrorist bombers and we need the police on the front line talking
:44:17. > :44:22.with the community and gain their confidence and having that
:44:23. > :44:27.intelligence. And on this occasion we know that for- five times that
:44:28. > :44:33.was made but it didn't get through. -- 4-5 times. One of the points
:44:34. > :44:37.Barry has raised is a valid one in terms of the aftermath of these
:44:38. > :44:45.conflicts. In the case of Iraq and Libya, Britain left these countries
:44:46. > :44:50.to chaos? Yes, of course. Famously we now know to the cost of many that
:44:51. > :44:54.lady what happened afterwards, the legacy that should have taken place
:44:55. > :44:59.after Iraq and Afghanistan, it wasn't good enough. We can only
:45:00. > :45:03.learn from that going forward, but that isn't the reason why some
:45:04. > :45:08.decides to blow up small children in an Arena in Manchester. Jeremy
:45:09. > :45:14.Corbyn, and Barry, you know Jeremy is on a hiding to nothing, just look
:45:15. > :45:19.at his back story and where he comes from and what he stands for. He's a
:45:20. > :45:23.pacifist CMD member, and when he was asked if he would take out an Isis,
:45:24. > :45:32.he couldn't even sire -- CMD member. He wants to be taken seriously on
:45:33. > :45:36.these issues. And this is a weakness for Jeremy Corbyn because people
:45:37. > :45:40.have spoken at his past associations with members of the IRA or any
:45:41. > :45:43.connection he might have with groups like Hamas and in the end it is a
:45:44. > :45:48.trust issue for the British people when they come to vote.
:45:49. > :45:57.It is problematic when you look at his record calling Hamas friends and
:45:58. > :46:04.associating with Gerry Adams within weeks of Brighton bombing. This will
:46:05. > :46:08.make people see him as something who sees the British state as the bad
:46:09. > :46:13.guys. The thing I find problematic about his speech is it is
:46:14. > :46:16.retrospective and you can apply all sorts of frameworks to why we have
:46:17. > :46:21.the causes of terror, but the proposition he is putting to public
:46:22. > :46:26.is we should have a smarter policy. Of course we should. But I still
:46:27. > :46:31.haven't heard anything that articulates what that consists of.
:46:32. > :46:35.There is no diplomatic engagement with Isis and no political solution
:46:36. > :46:42.available for negotiating with these people. What he is offering is kind
:46:43. > :46:45.of an elaborate hand-wringing, I don't see what his proposal is. On
:46:46. > :46:50.that we have to ends. Thank you. Manifestos are always full of fine
:46:51. > :46:52.sounding commitments, but as John Major used to say "fine
:46:53. > :46:55.words butter no parsnips" - and voters want to know how
:46:56. > :46:58.all those extra billions for schools Which taxes are going up
:46:59. > :47:02.and which benefits are being cut? Something some politicians seem
:47:03. > :47:16.to have trouble with. # Five, four, three, # Two # One.
:47:17. > :47:28.How much will they cost? They will cost... It will cost... Where will
:47:29. > :47:35.the extra eight billion come from? What we have done if you look at our
:47:36. > :47:38.record is shown we can put records amounts into the NHS and ensure we
:47:39. > :47:43.are building the strong economy, that is what we will do. What is
:47:44. > :47:48.Britain's deficit at the moment? If I can say to you, if I can say to
:47:49. > :47:53.you, what is happening as well in terms of day-to-day expenditure. Did
:47:54. > :47:59.somebody pass you a piece of paper. How much are you going to raise from
:48:00. > :48:03.cutting winter fuel payments. It depends where we set the level. We
:48:04. > :48:09.will consult on that. It costs about two billion. Most of that? We will
:48:10. > :48:16.see, because we haven't set the... Exactly. It is uncosted black hole.
:48:17. > :48:22.How are you going to pay for something worth 40 billion. Would be
:48:23. > :48:27.patient. A couple of more days. Where will it come from. It will be
:48:28. > :48:30.a priority area. So you haven't been able to show us a revenue line where
:48:31. > :48:34.this eight billion will come from? Now, the Institute for
:48:35. > :48:38.Fiscal Studies, or IFS, has analysed Labour and Conservative
:48:39. > :48:40.manifestos and compared their plans on public spending, the public
:48:41. > :48:42.finances and reforms To discuss their findings,
:48:43. > :48:56.Carl Emmerson, their Deputy Director The parties tell us their policies
:48:57. > :49:01.are costed, respect they? No they take risks. Labour has a plan to
:49:02. > :49:05.increase public spending considerably and they would keep the
:49:06. > :49:09.deficit around its current level so, borrow more than the Conservatives
:49:10. > :49:14.and raise taxes significantly. They think that would get them about 49
:49:15. > :49:20.billion. We agree they would get a lot of money from their tax policy,
:49:21. > :49:24.but even 41 billion would be optimistic and they will get less in
:49:25. > :49:27.the longer run. If Labour there is a risk, what will you do if your
:49:28. > :49:35.raises don't get what you expect. We don't think they would bring in the
:49:36. > :49:40.money held in want. Would they spend pack or put other taxes up? You say
:49:41. > :49:44.Labour are being optimistic, but to be fair they have put some costings
:49:45. > :49:49.together, because presumably you wouldn't have been able to make your
:49:50. > :49:54.judgments? Yes we can go through the numbers and see where they have gone
:49:55. > :49:59.for an optimistic estimate and where we think they have just made a
:50:00. > :50:04.mistake. And we can see they would raise a lot of tax revenue and we
:50:05. > :50:10.can say we think 41 billion rather than 49 would still be optimistic.
:50:11. > :50:16.Open question about what they would do with that short fall. You say
:50:17. > :50:22.Labour's taxes would be the highest in peacetime? With the increase of
:50:23. > :50:29.41 billion, our numbers, not their, they think they would do more, it
:50:30. > :50:33.would put tax above the level in the 80s and the 60s, so the highest
:50:34. > :50:38.level since 49/50. That is a long while. If you compare it
:50:39. > :50:42.internationally, lots of advanced economies have higher tax burdens.
:50:43. > :50:47.It would move us up to about mid table. It would move the UK to a
:50:48. > :50:53.Canadian position rather than a Scandinavian position. You say that
:50:54. > :50:57.Labour's public sector pay plans will cost ?9 billion extra. How did
:50:58. > :51:04.you work that out? We have looked at how much we spends on public sector
:51:05. > :51:07.pay and included the pension and national insurance distributions,
:51:08. > :51:15.unther the Conservative Government they could keep the 1% pay cap that
:51:16. > :51:22.would take a big risk with recruitment and retention. If Labour
:51:23. > :51:27.puts up the pay in line with private sector workers you could mitigate a
:51:28. > :51:35.lot of risks about recruitment and retention. But there would be a 9
:51:36. > :51:40.billion rise in pay bills. But you said this is a retail offer being
:51:41. > :51:44.made by Labour, is it appealing? It is about mood music in how people
:51:45. > :51:48.look at these things. You're looking at Theresa May's manifesto which may
:51:49. > :51:54.be honest and fiscally up front about we haven't got any money and
:51:55. > :52:00.we can't spend and we have to look at social care and we will put more
:52:01. > :52:05.into it, Labour, we are not giving you anything above that, a few
:52:06. > :52:09.school meals, Labour have a few list that does not include the cost of
:52:10. > :52:14.re-nationalisation. That isn't in the spending plans. That would be a
:52:15. > :52:18.mini-Brexit. What do you think of the fact there were no costings for
:52:19. > :52:22.re-nationalisation. It is correct to say there are not. They have said
:52:23. > :52:26.they would nationalise the Royal Mail and have public sector
:52:27. > :52:34.companies operating. It would be like a mini-Brexit. It would add to
:52:35. > :52:38.public sector debt. Can you estimate the figures? No, we have no sense of
:52:39. > :52:43.the scale or timing. We know it would mean they would be on course
:52:44. > :52:47.to miss their fiscal target. They have promised to balance the books
:52:48. > :52:54.on day-to-day spending. Now the Tories, you say the Tories will cut
:52:55. > :53:01.?11 billion from benefits, reducing the incomes of the lowest paid
:53:02. > :53:13.significantly. Is that in the manifesto. It is a continuation of
:53:14. > :53:18.policy. Universal credit is much less generous. It was a glaring
:53:19. > :53:23.omission. It was not being fully honest. That is a big amount of
:53:24. > :53:27.money, which of course it is not in the manifesto, the Conservatives can
:53:28. > :53:33.argue it is continuing Government policy, but ?11 billion being cut
:53:34. > :53:40.from benefits will hit working age households. And we felt by a lot of
:53:41. > :53:44.people in seats that serve MPs wants to win and they will find themselves
:53:45. > :53:47.in a need to put pressure on a Conservative Government if they win
:53:48. > :53:50.to say, you can't do this, to my constituents. I don't think the
:53:51. > :53:54.Conservative Party has been honest with itself about that and part of
:53:55. > :53:59.that is the underlying problem is you had five years during which the
:54:00. > :54:03.Conservative Party under David Cameron and George Osborne organised
:54:04. > :54:09.the argument around the need to deal with the deficit and the debt and
:54:10. > :54:15.this was the priority and then they have gone, Brexit is the issue,
:54:16. > :54:19.Theresa May is Prime Minister and she has inherited that agenda but
:54:20. > :54:25.not the will to make it the central issue and now that case is feeling
:54:26. > :54:31.old and I don't think Theresa May has grappled with that change
:54:32. > :54:36.properly. One change that the politicians have focussed on is
:54:37. > :54:41.immigration and Theresa May has restated that pledge, you are saying
:54:42. > :54:45.that her plans to reduce immigration will hit the economy and the public
:54:46. > :54:49.finances. How you work that out? We know from the Government's own
:54:50. > :54:55.forecast that when in November it revised down what it thought net
:54:56. > :54:59.immigration would be it revised down tax receipts by about 6 billion. We
:55:00. > :55:07.have seen that already in the books that was down to 180,000 a year net
:55:08. > :55:12.immigration. If you take it down to another 80,000 that will hit about 6
:55:13. > :55:17.billion in four years and that will grow over time. The more you hit
:55:18. > :55:24.that target. Is that a price worth paying. From an electoral
:55:25. > :55:30.perspective it is. Most polls suggest people would like to get it
:55:31. > :55:35.controlled. How do you explain the low tax receipts, if they go down?
:55:36. > :55:39.You suggest jobs will go as a result of immigrants not being here. Won't
:55:40. > :55:48.they be replaced by people who are looking for a job? Are we suggesting
:55:49. > :55:53.that Cafe Nero will be empty, because no one wants to work there.
:55:54. > :55:57.Yes, there are more work age coming to Britain wanting to work and there
:55:58. > :56:01.is not a fixed number of jobs and if we have people wh want to come here
:56:02. > :56:10.and want to work and decide we don't want them here... Jobs get created
:56:11. > :56:17.because they're here or they take jobs. But employment levels are
:56:18. > :56:24.high. We have record employment. So there are not many people looking to
:56:25. > :56:28.take jobs. I can't imagine our economy would collapse and the
:56:29. > :56:31.hospitality area, which is an industry that attracts people from
:56:32. > :56:39.Europe, they're not going to close down. This is the IFS just
:56:40. > :56:44.predicting doom and gloom. Forecasts are marvellous, but people say it is
:56:45. > :56:48.not scientific enough to be true. There are huge amounts of
:56:49. > :56:51.uncertainty. We can plan on the basis of best forecasts. That
:56:52. > :56:56.doesn't mean it will turn out as we predicted. Things could be better or
:56:57. > :57:00.worse, there are a lot of risks in the proposals with the Conservative
:57:01. > :57:04.the risk is that when you look at their NHS spending plans and
:57:05. > :57:10.schools, they're not that generous and what we don't know is whether if
:57:11. > :57:12.it is the case that leads to a deterioration of public services
:57:13. > :57:16.would they ends up having to top the plans up or just live with public
:57:17. > :57:20.services that were less good. Is this based on your idea that Brexit
:57:21. > :57:26.will provide uncertainty rather than opportunity. It is based on the
:57:27. > :57:33.government's own forecasts four s for the economy. It is the
:57:34. > :57:38.Government's own estimates. It is true if we don't have a strong
:57:39. > :57:43.economy neither Government could fulfil their plans. Yes the most
:57:44. > :57:47.important line for the Conservatives manifesto is the one that says we
:57:48. > :57:54.will leave the single market and they haven't explained how they do
:57:55. > :57:59.that and sustain the economy and the rest of the forecasts go away. You
:58:00. > :58:04.can't fit that in a manifesto. That is the line that will determine what
:58:05. > :58:07.happens to this country and the rest is hypothetical on whether they can
:58:08. > :58:11.do that in a way that protects the economy. Do you think there is more
:58:12. > :58:16.of a focus on public services that played into Jeremy Corbyn. Yes it is
:58:17. > :58:21.about mood music, that poll has closed, we have said it is only one,
:58:22. > :58:22.he is giving you loads, the Tories suggesting they would be more Prue
:58:23. > :58:31.dents. Thank you. Now, as part of the BBC's general
:58:32. > :58:34.election coverage our very own Andrew is interviewing the main
:58:35. > :58:36.party leaders in-depth. Tonight it's the turn
:58:37. > :58:38.of Jeremy Corbyn. That's The Andrew Neil Interviews,
:58:39. > :58:40.with Jeremy Corbyn, The one o'clock news is starting
:58:41. > :58:47.over on BBC One now. I'll be back on Sunday on BBC One
:58:48. > :58:55.at 11 with the Sunday Politics.