:00:38. > :00:41.Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics and Westminster,
:00:42. > :00:43.where campaigning ahead of the general election goes
:00:44. > :00:46.on in the wake of Saturday's terror attack in London.
:00:47. > :00:49.Police are said to know the identity of the three attackers who killed
:00:50. > :00:52.seven people and injured 48 near London Bridge,
:00:53. > :01:03.the third attack of its kind in the UK in just 10 weeks.
:01:04. > :01:05.As the investigation continues, Prime Minister Theresa May
:01:06. > :01:07.says "enough is enough", promising to end the UK's
:01:08. > :01:11.Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn says she ignored warnings about the risks
:01:12. > :01:15.We'll be talking about the political impact of the attack.
:01:16. > :01:18.The election is now just days away, and we've been in Northern Ireland
:01:19. > :01:23.looking at the possible impact of Brexit at the ballot box.
:01:24. > :01:26.And should you believe what you read in the opinion polls?
:01:27. > :01:29.We'll try and explain why the pollsters can't agree on much
:01:30. > :01:34.It isn't an exact science, is it, because what people say
:01:35. > :01:36.about what they're going to do isn't necessarily what
:01:37. > :01:46.All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole
:01:47. > :01:48.of the programme today, it's the former Conservative Justice
:01:49. > :01:59.Minister Dominic Raab, and the Shadow Health Secretary
:02:00. > :02:08.So let's begin by talking about Saturday's attack
:02:09. > :02:12.Police investigating the latest terrorist incident to affect the UK
:02:13. > :02:15.say they know the identity of the three attackers who murdered
:02:16. > :02:17.seven and injured 48, and say they will release the names
:02:18. > :02:21.They were shot and killed by police after driving into pedestrians
:02:22. > :02:24.on the bridge in Central London and stabbing people in nearby
:02:25. > :02:27.Borough Market, and the names of some of the victims have also
:02:28. > :02:30.Let's get the latest on this ongoing investigation from our home
:02:31. > :02:34.affairs correspondent, Daniel Sandford.
:02:35. > :02:41.Tell us the latest developments. As you say, police are almost
:02:42. > :02:46.certain of the identities of the men who drove across the bridge and
:02:47. > :02:50.started stabbing people in the pubs and restaurants nearby in Borough
:02:51. > :02:54.Market. We in the media are also aware of the identity of at least
:02:55. > :02:57.one of those but we are being asked by the police not to broadcast them
:02:58. > :03:01.for operational reasons at the moment. I think we may get the names
:03:02. > :03:05.officially announced as early as this afternoon but that does depend
:03:06. > :03:14.on what happens in terms of arrests and raids over the next few hours.
:03:15. > :03:17.One of the men is definitely a Pakistani man living in the Barking
:03:18. > :03:19.area and another man we are hearing from Irish sources likely had an
:03:20. > :03:24.Irish identity card and what of Moroccan origin but we will hear
:03:25. > :03:29.more about that in the afternoon. 11 people are currently in custody, 12
:03:30. > :03:34.having been arrested, one of the men was released soon afterwards. Most
:03:35. > :03:40.of those people were arrested at one address in Barking, another one
:03:41. > :03:46.close by. We had two fresh raids overnight, one in the borough of
:03:47. > :03:48.Barking and one in the borough of Newham, we had camera crews at both
:03:49. > :03:52.of those, lots of police activity at those but still this is early days,
:03:53. > :03:57.the police pretty much know who did it, the question is who helped them.
:03:58. > :04:00.We now know five plots have been disrupted between the Manchester
:04:01. > :04:05.attack two weeks ago and that on Saturday night. As the volume always
:04:06. > :04:10.been that high? No, I don't think it has. It has
:04:11. > :04:15.been exceptionally high since 2014, we are talking about 18 plots I
:04:16. > :04:19.think since 2014 have been disrupted but there seems to have been an
:04:20. > :04:24.acceleration since the Westminster attack on March the 22nd this year.
:04:25. > :04:28.I think a failing in police circles and security service circles is
:04:29. > :04:39.there is a degree of copycat or inspiration as a result of that,
:04:40. > :04:42.they noticed how much attention and shock was caused by bad attack on
:04:43. > :04:44.March the 22nd and that have encouraged people to accelerate
:04:45. > :04:46.their own plans, so you are essentially have since March the
:04:47. > :04:51.22nd two successful attacks on the UK and five what the police believe
:04:52. > :04:55.were unsuccessful attacks on the UK, and I think that is the highest
:04:56. > :04:59.level we have really ever seen, it wasn't the rate at which we saw it
:05:00. > :05:03.in the IRA era and even in the Al-Qaeda area we were not getting
:05:04. > :05:04.them coming into the UK at that kind of rate.
:05:05. > :05:05.Daniel, thank you. This attack followed hard
:05:06. > :05:08.on the heels of the bombing at a pop concert in Manchester less
:05:09. > :05:10.than two weeks ago. Last night, the singer Ariana Grande
:05:11. > :05:13.returned to the city for a benefit concert to remember the victims
:05:14. > :05:16.of that suicide bomb. # But don't look back
:05:17. > :05:29.in anger, I heard you say. I love you guys so much,
:05:30. > :05:32.and I think that the kind of love and unity that you're displaying
:05:33. > :05:35.is the medicine that the world So I want to thank you
:05:36. > :05:41.for being just that. And I want to thank you for coming
:05:42. > :05:54.tonight, I love you so much. Ariana Grande there at the concert.
:05:55. > :05:59.You're bored after yet another terror attack, this time on the
:06:00. > :06:03.streets of London? -- your thoughts. Horrific attack, good to see
:06:04. > :06:07.Manchester getting back on its feet and responding with courage and
:06:08. > :06:12.positivity. In terms of London, I know that area quite well, I worked
:06:13. > :06:18.there my early career as a lawyer, I used to socialise there, it is
:06:19. > :06:22.horrific. Our thoughts are with the victims and families as well, and a
:06:23. > :06:26.huge credit to the public and security services, particularly the
:06:27. > :06:30.police, eight minutes from the first call to arriving and decisively
:06:31. > :06:34.dealing with, killings of three terrorists involved. We need to hold
:06:35. > :06:38.our nerve, there will be lots of talk about what we should do next, I
:06:39. > :06:43.know we will come onto that but I think as politicians as well we need
:06:44. > :06:48.to get on with our democracy and protect our democracy, and go to the
:06:49. > :06:51.polls on Thursday. We don't let the fanatics get the victory of
:06:52. > :06:55.disrupting our democracy, that would be the gift they want. There has
:06:56. > :06:59.been a great show of resilience, as you said, and if there was an
:07:00. > :07:02.attempt to disrupt our way of life, people going out and enjoying
:07:03. > :07:06.themselves at a concert or on the streets of London, that tribute
:07:07. > :07:12.concert last night to the victims showed that people are not afraid?
:07:13. > :07:16.No, it is a strong message from a younger crowd, young audience, young
:07:17. > :07:19.artist, but people right across the generations will be proud that
:07:20. > :07:22.Britain is getting back up off its knees and continuing to do the
:07:23. > :07:29.things not just that we need to do but want to do and as a politician I
:07:30. > :07:30.am keen, I have a hustings this evening, we get on and we show that
:07:31. > :07:38.we will not be cowed. Thank you. So, what does Saturday's
:07:39. > :07:40.attack mean for Thursday's general election?
:07:41. > :07:42.Well, there are questions for both main parties to answer
:07:43. > :07:45.on their record in dealing with terrorism and how they propose
:07:46. > :07:49.As Home Secretary, a post she held for seven years,
:07:50. > :07:52.Theresa May presided over a 22% cut to the police budget
:07:53. > :08:02.There are now 19,000 fewer police compared to 2010,
:08:03. > :08:04.with the Labour Party accusing the Conservatives of trying to
:08:05. > :08:08.The Government points out that, since 2015, the policing
:08:09. > :08:11.And that funding for counterterrorism has been increasing
:08:12. > :08:17.However, with the police monitoring around 3000 subjects of interest,
:08:18. > :08:21.and three terror incidents in the last three months,
:08:22. > :08:24.Theresa May has been criticised for replacing control orders,
:08:25. > :08:29.which placed terror suspects under intense supervision,
:08:30. > :08:32.with what have been described as "looser" rules.
:08:33. > :08:36.However, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has also come in for criticism
:08:37. > :08:40.after he admitted he'd spent his career opposing key pieces
:08:41. > :08:41.of anti-terror legislation, leaving the Conservatives to claim
:08:42. > :08:47.he can't be trusted with the nation's security.
:08:48. > :08:50.In 2011, Mr Corbyn joined Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell and
:08:51. > :08:53.Shadow Home Secretary Diane Abbott in voting against putting al-Qaeda
:08:54. > :08:56.on a Government list of proscribed terrorist organisations.
:08:57. > :09:00.Two years ago, the Labour leader said he wasn't happy over the police
:09:01. > :09:03.shoot-to-kill policy, although last night he said
:09:04. > :09:05.he would take whatever action was "necessary and effective"
:09:06. > :09:16.Mr Corbyn has also faced uncomfortable questions
:09:17. > :09:19.about his associations with the IRA and members of Hamas,
:09:20. > :09:21.which the UK Government considers a terrorist organisation.
:09:22. > :09:25.Both Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn have been
:09:26. > :09:27.criticising each other over this issue - let's have a look
:09:28. > :09:29.at the Labour leader speaking last night,
:09:30. > :09:31.and the Prime Minister speaking at an event this morning.
:09:32. > :09:33.You cannot protect the public on the cheap.
:09:34. > :09:36.The police and security services must get the resources they need,
:09:37. > :09:43.Theresa May was warned by the Police Federation,
:09:44. > :09:51.Safeguarding the security of our country takes leadership.
:09:52. > :09:54.That's why since 2010, in the face of a growing threat,
:09:55. > :09:57.we protected the budget for counterterrorism policing
:09:58. > :10:00.and increased the resources available to the security
:10:01. > :10:07.It's why, since 2015, when Jeremy Corbyn's front bench
:10:08. > :10:10.was arguing for the police to be cut by a further 10%, we've
:10:11. > :10:15.not cut the police, but protected their budget.
:10:16. > :10:21.Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn. I can welcome Jonathan Ashworth now to the
:10:22. > :10:24.Daily Politics but I will start with Dominic Raab. Labour has accused the
:10:25. > :10:29.Conservatives of giving security on the cheap and there is evidence for
:10:30. > :10:32.that? I'm afraid if you look at, just take the evidence from this
:10:33. > :10:36.terrible attack at London Bridge, within eight minutes the armed
:10:37. > :10:40.police were there responding decisively and taking out of the
:10:41. > :10:43.three terrorists. Talking about having other ordinary bobbies on the
:10:44. > :10:48.beat is not going to deal with an attack like that, it would be deeply
:10:49. > :10:52.irresponsible, we have already seen some of the ordinary officers that
:10:53. > :10:56.were involved suffering injuries. You need to be willing to have the
:10:57. > :11:00.armed police, we are putting 1500 more armed officers at the service
:11:01. > :11:03.of the country, you need to have them trained and equipped and
:11:04. > :11:07.ultimately willing to take out the terrorists, and I think really what
:11:08. > :11:10.we have seen from Jeremy Corbyn is an attempt to deflect on the
:11:11. > :11:19.questions you have rightly put out in your clip that he needs to
:11:20. > :11:20.answer. Theresa May has been Home Secretary for six years,
:11:21. > :11:23.assiduously, robustly, but calmly, doing whatever it takes to protect
:11:24. > :11:27.the country from terrorism. Except police numbers have gone down, she
:11:28. > :11:31.has been Home Secretary for seven years previous to being Prime
:11:32. > :11:35.Minister and police budgets were cut by a fifth. Crime is down a third.
:11:36. > :11:40.But if we are looking at the numbers, if there is any claim to
:11:41. > :11:44.the evidence from -- any evidence to the claim from Labour that policing
:11:45. > :11:48.is being done on the cheap, 19,000 fewer officers on the streets, 1000
:11:49. > :11:52.fewer armed officers ready for deployment, with the benefit of
:11:53. > :11:55.hindsight, do you think the public deserve an apology from the
:11:56. > :12:02.Government for cutting numbers? No, this is wrong... The figures are not
:12:03. > :12:06.wrong. Crime has been cut by a third. What you cannot pretend is
:12:07. > :12:10.you are going to send an ordinary bobby on the beat in to deal with
:12:11. > :12:15.the kind of horrific attack we saw on the weekend. Just an illustration
:12:16. > :12:19.of this... These are police officers I'm talking about, these are police
:12:20. > :12:23.numbers. To deal with a terrorist attack, which is the issue of the
:12:24. > :12:26.day, you need to have them armed and authorised to go in, and even the
:12:27. > :12:36.armed officers dealing with people with explosives around their bodies
:12:37. > :12:38.were incredibly brave. You couldn't expect to have ordinarily bobbies
:12:39. > :12:41.going to deal with that. What Jeremy Corbyn is dealing with that is
:12:42. > :12:44.deeply irresponsible. Let's be clear on the number of armed police, have
:12:45. > :12:49.they fallen, the numbers, since 2010? My understanding is since 2015
:12:50. > :12:54.our commitment has been to putting 1500... Since 2010 they have fallen,
:12:55. > :12:59.haven't they, armed officers? I am not sure of the headline numbers.
:13:00. > :13:02.The Met Commissioner Cressida Dick said the armed police are properly
:13:03. > :13:06.resourced. But they also have to be is properly armed and trained and
:13:07. > :13:10.authorised to take the decisive action that they did on Saturday.
:13:11. > :13:13.Otherwise more people would be suffering. Jonathan Ashworth, we
:13:14. > :13:16.talked about the response time, armed police were there in eight
:13:17. > :13:20.minutes otherwise I'm sure the carnage would have been much worse.
:13:21. > :13:24.In a way, they have got the resources and the numbers that they
:13:25. > :13:36.need, they responded very effectively, didn't they?
:13:37. > :13:40.Can I just say, could I have not had the chance, because I was late, I
:13:41. > :13:42.have huge praise for the extraordinarily brave response from
:13:43. > :13:44.the police and emergency services on Saturday evening, they really make
:13:45. > :13:47.you proud to be British. On the broader point, we have seen cuts
:13:48. > :13:50.while Theresa May was Home Secretary of 20,000 police officers. On your
:13:51. > :13:54.point of armed police, cut by 1000 by Theresa May since 2010. A lot of
:13:55. > :13:57.the security agencies have seen their budget cuts while Theresa May
:13:58. > :14:04.was Home Secretary. They have been cut since 2010 while Theresa May was
:14:05. > :14:07.Home Secretary. Let me finish. The Conservative Party have wanted to
:14:08. > :14:11.position this election as a referendum on Theresa May so it is
:14:12. > :14:15.only fair that we scrutinise her record as Home Secretary, and hers
:14:16. > :14:20.is one where 20,000 police officers were cut, 1000 armed police cut,
:14:21. > :14:24.security agencies cut and I'm not convinced that her whole line about,
:14:25. > :14:30.she is going to stand up and make our streets safer, I don't think it
:14:31. > :14:32.is true. I will let you talk in a second because you and your
:14:33. > :14:36.colleagues have always said, Judge us on our record, and we are judging
:14:37. > :14:40.you on this specific record and also the fact that Theresa May said
:14:41. > :14:43.yesterday, enough is enough, which is a strange phrase because you
:14:44. > :14:47.might have asked what is bothering her now that did not bother her
:14:48. > :14:51.before. On police numbers, Jeremy Corbyn has gone so far as to say she
:14:52. > :14:54.should resign over the cuts in police numbers. What do you say to
:14:55. > :15:07.that? Labour's position in 2015 was that
:15:08. > :15:10.we should cut police numbers possibly by up to 10% so it is rank
:15:11. > :15:13.hypocrisy. On the question of judging us on our record, when you
:15:14. > :15:15.judge a Government Prime Minister it is on what you do in practice and on
:15:16. > :15:19.Saturday night, in horrific circumstances, there was a terrific
:15:20. > :15:22.response, within eight minutes they were taken out, not just because we
:15:23. > :15:26.have the right resources but the right leadership, willing to do the
:15:27. > :15:29.difficult things that need to be done in that situation. Jeremy
:15:30. > :15:34.Corbyn has done a U-turn overnight... Let's talk about that.
:15:35. > :15:37.Leadership and response is important, people have to know what
:15:38. > :15:41.action is going to be taken and whether they have political support.
:15:42. > :15:45.Do you share your leader's view that there are problems with the current
:15:46. > :15:50.shoot-to-kill policy that the police used on Saturday night? Our leaders
:15:51. > :15:53.spoke out last night that he is clear that he would support the
:15:54. > :15:56.police taking similar action in similar circumstances in the future.
:15:57. > :16:04.Let's listen to what he said two years ago on this.
:16:05. > :16:06.If we saw the kind of horror in Paris here,
:16:07. > :16:08.if you were Prime Minister, would you order security services
:16:09. > :16:10.onto the street to stop people being killed?
:16:11. > :16:13.Of course you'd bring people onto the streets to prevent
:16:14. > :16:15.and ensure there is safety within our society.
:16:16. > :16:17.Much better that's done by the police than the security
:16:18. > :16:19.services, much better we have strong and effective community policing,
:16:20. > :16:21.neighbourhood policing and a cohesive society that
:16:22. > :16:25.Obviously that is essential, and so that's one of the messages
:16:26. > :16:27.I will be putting to the Prime Minister.
:16:28. > :16:30.But if you were Prime Minister, would you be happy to order people,
:16:31. > :16:32.police or military, to shoot-to-kill on Britain's streets.
:16:33. > :16:36.I'm not happy with the shoot-to-kill policy in general, I think
:16:37. > :16:41.that is quite dangerous and I think can often be counter-productive.
:16:42. > :16:44.I think you have to have security that prevents people firing off
:16:45. > :16:51.There are various degrees of doing things, as we know,
:16:52. > :16:55.but the idea you end up with a war on the streets is not a good thing.
:16:56. > :16:58.Surely you have to work to try and prevent these things happening,
:16:59. > :17:17.So Jeremy Corbyn wasn't happy with this shoot to kill policy. He said
:17:18. > :17:20.two years ago, he said it was dangerous and counter-productive?
:17:21. > :17:23.Have you shown the clip of what he said last night where he would
:17:24. > :17:28.support the police and any action they need to take. Should people
:17:29. > :17:34.believe what he said two years ago, because he was very clear about it,
:17:35. > :17:39.or should they believe what he said last night? People should judge what
:17:40. > :17:42.we said in the manifesto and this election campaign. Jeremy said last
:17:43. > :17:48.night, we will support the police to take the action they need to take,
:17:49. > :17:51.including what they did the other night, to shoot those despicable
:17:52. > :17:57.terrorists who are killing people on the streets. There is this issue of
:17:58. > :18:02.trust. Seamus Milne was recorded on a train discussing how Jeremy Corbyn
:18:03. > :18:06.should handle questions over Trident renewal and shut down those
:18:07. > :18:11.questions on Trident renewal. And he said, this is a proxy question, so
:18:12. > :18:16.that is why I am always saying I think we will do whatever is
:18:17. > :18:21.necessary and effective to protect our people. The same line Jeremy
:18:22. > :18:26.Corbyn news last night, whatever is necessary and effective. Is that
:18:27. > :18:32.your leader's answer to disguise his true views? He has been clear on his
:18:33. > :18:37.position over nuclear weapons. But the Labour Party's position. I don't
:18:38. > :18:40.want to talk about Trident renewal because we know what his views are
:18:41. > :18:46.on that and he has been consistent, but this line he was advised to use
:18:47. > :18:51.by his head of communication, a catch all phrase to say whatever is
:18:52. > :18:55.necessary in an election campaign to reassure people to disguise his
:18:56. > :19:01.views when two years ago he said he wasn't happy with this shoot to kill
:19:02. > :19:05.policy. Advisers advise all the time. Theresa May will be getting
:19:06. > :19:15.advice as well. But he used that line. Yes, advisers will advise
:19:16. > :19:22.Dominic. Isn't it just because we are in an election he has two save
:19:23. > :19:27.what is necessary. His real views are quite clear, it is
:19:28. > :19:32.counter-productive and dangerous. He says we will maintain our nuclear
:19:33. > :19:37.deterrent. We would use it. Nobody wants to be in a position where you
:19:38. > :19:41.would want to use it, that would be the most horrible circumstance. But
:19:42. > :19:46.we will do nothing to compromise the safety of this country. He won't get
:19:47. > :19:50.us cutting police by 20000 and then going to the Police Chiefs and
:19:51. > :19:56.telling them they are crying wolf when they complain about it. You
:19:57. > :20:02.advocated more cuts in policing. Don't talk over each other. It is
:20:03. > :20:07.hypocrisy for them to criticise when they said there would be even more
:20:08. > :20:13.cuts. The bottom line is, and you made the point very clearly, if you
:20:14. > :20:18.got a U-turn on shoot to kill, two days after a terror attack, three
:20:19. > :20:22.days before we go to the polls, it goes directly to leadership. Theresa
:20:23. > :20:26.May has spent six years doing whatever it takes to protect the
:20:27. > :20:31.country. By cutting police by 20,000. Can you talk about the
:20:32. > :20:37.policy about changing one's mind in the middle of a campaign. Can you
:20:38. > :20:42.take what Jeremy Corbyn said last night at face value given the
:20:43. > :20:46.resources and the powers to the police and what they need to do,
:20:47. > :20:51.given what he said two years ago. We have said it in the manifesto, it is
:20:52. > :20:57.a contract with the people and we want to be judged on our record. The
:20:58. > :21:01.Tory party is cutting 20,000 police and 1000 less armed police officers
:21:02. > :21:07.on the streets. When anybody raise that issue with the Prime Minister,
:21:08. > :21:11.she said they were crying wolf. If it is about judging your record and
:21:12. > :21:16.Theresa May and the government cannot be blamed directly, this did
:21:17. > :21:19.happen while the Tories were in power, these three attacks and the
:21:20. > :21:23.murder of Lee Rigby, they have happened when the Tories have been
:21:24. > :21:28.in power. They not accountable? I don't think we went around saying
:21:29. > :21:36.the 7th of July was the responsibility of Tony Blair. Are
:21:37. > :21:40.they accountable for it? The fact of the matter is, you have to take into
:21:41. > :21:45.account the countless terrorist attacks we foiled, the change in the
:21:46. > :21:50.nature of terrorism, the lone wolf attacks. You have made it more
:21:51. > :21:56.difficult by reducing the numbers? We saw on Saturday night with
:21:57. > :22:00.actions, not words, we know we have finite public resources because of
:22:01. > :22:03.the deficit, so we have had to make difficult decisions. We have made
:22:04. > :22:08.sure the armed police and the armed response of the best they could be.
:22:09. > :22:15.We have a leader who will do whatever it takes. Jeremy Corbyn, U
:22:16. > :22:20.turn shoot to kill, drone strikes on Islamic State, he is not prepared to
:22:21. > :22:21.take the difficult decisions. Control orders, you got rid of them
:22:22. > :22:24.as well. Now, it's worth remembering that,
:22:25. > :22:26.whereas there have been three attacks in the last three months,
:22:27. > :22:29.the majority of terrorist plots have been prevented by the police
:22:30. > :22:31.and the security services. Less than three months ago,
:22:32. > :22:33.on Wednesday 22nd March, there was a car and knife attack
:22:34. > :22:36.carried out by one Two weeks ago, on Monday 22nd May,
:22:37. > :22:41.a suicide bomber blew himself up in the Manchester Arena,
:22:42. > :22:46.killing 22 people. And the London Bridge attack
:22:47. > :22:49.on Saturday has currently claimed However, the Prime Minister said
:22:50. > :22:54.yesterday that the police and the intelligence agencies have
:22:55. > :22:57.disrupted five terrorist plots since And, since 2013, the authorities
:22:58. > :23:02.have stopped a total And, as we mentioned earlier,
:23:03. > :23:07.there are around 3000 people currently engaged in plots and up
:23:08. > :23:11.to 18,000 people who have come to the attention
:23:12. > :23:19.of the security services. And joining me to discuss
:23:20. > :23:22.this is Lord Carlile, the former Independent Reviewer
:23:23. > :23:26.of Terrorism Legislation, and Nazir Afzal, the former Chief
:23:27. > :23:39.Prosecutor for North West England. It is worth remembering the majority
:23:40. > :23:45.of terrorist plots are prevented by the authorities but we know there
:23:46. > :23:48.have been three attacks in less than three months. Do you believe the
:23:49. > :23:56.police and intelligence agencies have the powers they need? I do and
:23:57. > :23:59.Cressida Dick said so yesterday. The argument about 20,000 community
:24:00. > :24:04.police officers has nothing to do with terrorism. It is a different
:24:05. > :24:08.argument. But it is clear to all of those involved good knowledge in
:24:09. > :24:12.counterterrorism policing and related issues, the authorities do
:24:13. > :24:17.have the resources they need and they have been broadly very
:24:18. > :24:21.successful. They have intercepted 18 plots in the last three years but of
:24:22. > :24:27.course, as the Prime Minister said in her speech a few minutes ago, I
:24:28. > :24:32.do need to review the policy because of the changing activities of
:24:33. > :24:35.so-called Islamic states. Are the authorities using the powers they
:24:36. > :24:43.have at their disposal, when you look at the legislation? Tpims, I
:24:44. > :24:48.know you have been critical of and they are a looser version of the
:24:49. > :24:53.control order. They have only been used three times and those control
:24:54. > :25:04.orders who can stop jihadist back and stop -- coming back from Syria
:25:05. > :25:11.haven't been used at all. Tpims have not been used. In 2010, 2011, the
:25:12. > :25:14.Coalition Government decided to get rid of control orders, wrongly. It
:25:15. > :25:20.was a political decision by Nick Clegg. As a result, Tpims were
:25:21. > :25:26.brought into effect and they go weaker than control orders. I was
:25:27. > :25:30.the independent reviewer for the whole period to control orders were
:25:31. > :25:41.involved and I looked at them every day. They may have saved many lives.
:25:42. > :25:46.Really? So we should revert in to the insertion into Tpims of the
:25:47. > :25:51.controls under control orders, because it works. What do you say
:25:52. > :25:58.about that? I respect his view, but I am not sure any evidence is there
:25:59. > :26:08.to prevent these last attacks. Control orders leaked, they abscond
:26:09. > :26:12.rate was terrible but it did improve. If you are at a level where
:26:13. > :26:17.you are not sure what people to, you cannot have them permanently on
:26:18. > :26:21.control orders. The reason may says enough is enough and we need to
:26:22. > :26:25.change our approach. Three days before an election, I will be
:26:26. > :26:29.careful about this. If there is any evidence we need to look at any
:26:30. > :26:34.other powers, I will be willing to do that again. But when I looked at
:26:35. > :26:40.this in some detail there wasn't any evidence control orders could deal
:26:41. > :26:43.with the kind of problems we are now seeing. I am not saying control
:26:44. > :26:48.orders would have helped with these individuals, there is no way of
:26:49. > :26:53.knowing. There was no absconding in the last three years of control
:26:54. > :26:56.orders, they were very well want. The control orders were well within
:26:57. > :27:04.human rights legislation and they worked. There were only covering
:27:05. > :27:10.eight people of about 2000. You are wrong about that. At any one time
:27:11. > :27:18.the largest number of people control was 23 and there was always room for
:27:19. > :27:23.that to be increased. Would you support a return to control orders?
:27:24. > :27:28.I would. I thought it was a huge mistake to get rid of them. Jeremy
:27:29. > :27:34.Corbyn was in the same position as the reason may. I would definitely
:27:35. > :27:38.support them. Now, Theresa May made a statement outside Downing Street
:27:39. > :27:41.yesterday and described for areas where more needs to be done, one of
:27:42. > :27:46.those was the Internet and technology. Do you agree the
:27:47. > :27:51.Internet can provide a safe space for terrorists? We know it does. I
:27:52. > :27:55.think they have taken down 250,000 websites in the last two years.
:27:56. > :27:59.There are tens of thousands replacing them. This work is not
:28:00. > :28:03.something just the British have to do, it is international. Most
:28:04. > :28:10.websites are centred in San Diego, California. So yes, there are
:28:11. > :28:15.individuals who are being radicalised online. As we have
:28:16. > :28:19.appreciated, one of the individuals we may talking about in the next day
:28:20. > :28:23.or two will have been radicalised online. There is work that needs to
:28:24. > :28:27.happen online but that is only part of the issue. Most radicalisation
:28:28. > :28:30.takes place within place within communities, within conversations
:28:31. > :28:35.happening in places that aren't just in the mosque any more. We focus on
:28:36. > :28:42.the mosque where people are being radicalised. If anything, it is
:28:43. > :28:45.happening outside the mosque, in places perhaps we don't necessarily
:28:46. > :28:48.have the ability to look into it and see what is going on. But we have
:28:49. > :28:51.got to deal with that. The Prime Minister is right in a sense by
:28:52. > :28:55.saying more needs to be done, but we don't know what needs to be done. I
:28:56. > :28:59.cannot think of any more legislation. Lord Carlile will know
:29:00. > :29:04.better than me, but we have had 11 terrorism acts since 2000. We have
:29:05. > :29:07.run out of names for them now. I cannot think of any more
:29:08. > :29:13.legislation, the conversation you were having a moment ago, go back to
:29:14. > :29:17.stuff we have had before. My point is, the answer to this lies in the
:29:18. > :29:22.communities. Communities have two hapless, they need to be engaged
:29:23. > :29:26.with and be able to trust the people they are giving the information too.
:29:27. > :29:29.What you may have touched on is, there has been thousands of of
:29:30. > :29:36.information coming through through the security services but do they
:29:37. > :29:40.have the resources to act upon that? I will leave the politicians to deal
:29:41. > :29:44.with that. There have been claims made people called about the people
:29:45. > :29:49.involved in the last two attacks and be perhaps were not followed up. It
:29:50. > :29:59.hasn't been verified in that sense but did look up the cause, let's
:30:00. > :30:02.look at the Prevent programme. It has been criticised by some parts of
:30:03. > :30:07.the Muslim community, the Labour Party has criticised it, what is
:30:08. > :30:11.wrong with it? It works very well when it works. It is poorly
:30:12. > :30:16.communicated, poor engagement in the community. It is Miss understood in
:30:17. > :30:20.some respects. Sometimes deliberately this understood by
:30:21. > :30:25.people who wish to undermine it, for whatever reason. But when it works,
:30:26. > :30:28.it works well. I can think of a thousand examples. This is part of
:30:29. > :30:33.the problem with communication. All you hear of his examples when
:30:34. > :30:37.somebody got it wrong. The reality is, I have a thousand examples where
:30:38. > :30:41.people have been worked with, ensured they don't go off to Syria
:30:42. > :30:48.in 150 cases or in other cases they have been given mental health
:30:49. > :30:49.support or other career support. So it does work, but it hasn't worked
:30:50. > :31:08.routinely across-the-board. Andy Burnham says the Prevent
:31:09. > :31:13.creates alienation and the vision. Why do you want to drop it or
:31:14. > :31:22.replace In places where it works it works
:31:23. > :31:29.well, in other places it is viewed with suspicion. Is that because you
:31:30. > :31:33.have undermined it? The part of the world I represent and hope to carry
:31:34. > :31:37.on representing we have Prevent, I know it well, we work with it and
:31:38. > :31:40.the picture that has been painted of elements of it working well and
:31:41. > :31:45.being very important and we need to continue with it is one I absolutely
:31:46. > :31:52.understand. We are saying, let's review it, let's involve the
:31:53. > :31:57.community in Prevent. Did you think Prevent has been undermined? I agree
:31:58. > :32:03.with every word Nazir said, it has been deliberately undermined by some
:32:04. > :32:07.people. I believe, on the evidence I have seen, which is quite a lot,
:32:08. > :32:11.that where Prevent works well, it works very, very well, and to say we
:32:12. > :32:15.should get rid of it and start again is just ludicrous. What we need to
:32:16. > :32:20.do is take the best practice of Prevent and roll it out across the
:32:21. > :32:23.country with greater funding. This Government has promised that
:32:24. > :32:28.funding. I hope that in the future... But it has been cut in
:32:29. > :32:32.recent times. No, the Prevent funding has not been cut, it has
:32:33. > :32:37.been increased consistently. There have been problems with changing
:32:38. > :32:41.strategies towards Prevent, particularly around 2010-11, but
:32:42. > :32:49.Prevent has been doing well, and other countries' capital have asked
:32:50. > :32:54.how we do it. A lot of community groups were getting money to work
:32:55. > :32:59.with young people... But Labour's line was that it has been cut? It is
:33:00. > :33:02.legitimate to remove funding from one programme and put it into
:33:03. > :33:08.another, that has happened all over the country. In the constituency I
:33:09. > :33:11.represent, groups were complaining that the work they had been doing
:33:12. > :33:15.with younger men had to be scaled back because the money was not there
:33:16. > :33:17.any more. When I mention the community, of course, there is no
:33:18. > :33:26.such thing as one homogenous Muslim community. Muslim communities, in
:33:27. > :33:34.London they come from 52 countries, in the north they come from two or
:33:35. > :33:37.three. The issue I have is that everybody, local Government as well,
:33:38. > :33:45.is very lazy, it goes to the same community leaders, it does not go
:33:46. > :33:47.out to the people doing phenomenal work in their communities and
:33:48. > :33:49.support them in what they are doing. I think we need to change our
:33:50. > :33:51.approach. Thank you both very much. Now let's find out
:33:52. > :34:02.what else is happening There was a moment yesterday,
:34:03. > :34:05.possibly the only moment in the whole election campaign, where all
:34:06. > :34:09.the parties agreed on one thing, something that Theresa May set out
:34:10. > :34:12.here. She said violence can never be allowed to disrupt the general
:34:13. > :34:16.cryptic process and the general election will go ahead on Thursday.
:34:17. > :34:19.All main parties except Ukip yesterday agreed to suspend national
:34:20. > :34:24.campaigning but then we saw Theresa May come out and make a speech about
:34:25. > :34:28.what she saw as some of the issues with her counterterrorism strategy,
:34:29. > :34:38.critics say it was highly critical, and Jeremy Corbyn later on had a
:34:39. > :34:41.speech in which he made some of his own criticisms, and again critics of
:34:42. > :34:42.his said it was highly critical. Ukip did take part in a special
:34:43. > :34:44.debate in the evening. Ukip's Paul Nuttall faced Jo
:34:45. > :34:46.and a studio audience at a special debate in Bristol,
:34:47. > :34:48.where, not surprisingly, I mentioned waterboarding
:34:49. > :34:56.in the case if there was going to be an imminent terrorist attack,
:34:57. > :34:59.and if we had to find out information quickly,
:35:00. > :35:00.I wouldn't take anything off the table to ensure
:35:01. > :35:02.that British women, men The Green co-leader Jonathan Bartley
:35:03. > :35:11.was grilled at the same event, and was far from willing to commit
:35:12. > :35:14.to the use of drone strikes abroad. It's going to be a matter
:35:15. > :35:16.of international law, You have to take every case
:35:17. > :35:20.on a case-by-case basis. This morning, though,
:35:21. > :35:21.the campaign was well The giveaway - a party
:35:22. > :35:25.leader in a pinny. The Lib Dems have been clear
:35:26. > :35:36.they're not keen on Brexit. Now it appears Tim Farron is not
:35:37. > :35:41.keen on breakfast either. Nicola Sturgeon has been
:35:42. > :35:43.taking the really high They're calling it the Nicolopter,
:35:44. > :35:50.apparently, as the SNP leader gets around 30 constituencies
:35:51. > :35:52.across Scotland before polling day. And then she made this pretty
:35:53. > :36:00.incredible pitch to voters. Ellie Price reporting at the
:36:01. > :36:09.beginning of that film. The Democratic Unionist Party leader
:36:10. > :36:12.Arlene Foster says the Northern Ireland parties were close
:36:13. > :36:14.to an agreement on Brexit before their talks were interrupted
:36:15. > :36:16.by Theresa May's announcement The traditional contest
:36:17. > :36:20.in Northern Ireland between unionists and nationalists
:36:21. > :36:22.is being played out against a backdrop of uncertainty
:36:23. > :36:24.over what Brexit will mean for the border with the Irish
:36:25. > :36:27.Republic, which will be the UK's In a moment we'll speak
:36:28. > :36:34.to Arlene Foster, but first our Northern Ireland political editor
:36:35. > :36:36.Mark Devenport reports from Mrs Foster's home constituency
:36:37. > :36:43.of Fermanagh and South Tyrone, where her DUP is backing a candidate
:36:44. > :36:45.from the Ulster Unionist Party in an attempt to hold the highly
:36:46. > :36:48.marginal seat against a strong In Fermanagh, it's not just politics
:36:49. > :36:53.which is balanced on a knife edge. The county's award-winning black
:36:54. > :36:57.bacon is exported far afield. But this Enniskillen butcher fears
:36:58. > :37:02.that Brexit might prove a rash move. Right across Europe,
:37:03. > :37:05.we can export our bacon. Now, the big concern for us
:37:06. > :37:11.is what is going to happen Everyone talks about the hard Brexit
:37:12. > :37:17.and the soft Brexit, but reality is it is just one word,
:37:18. > :37:20."Brexit," and we are, from the business community,
:37:21. > :37:23.we feel that we're in a wee bit This isn't no-man's land,
:37:24. > :37:29.it's the Sheridans' land. Son David and father Robert farm
:37:30. > :37:33.on either side of the border, crisscrossing the frontier at least
:37:34. > :37:37.two or three times a day. David voted for Brexit because
:37:38. > :37:42.of his annoyance with EU red tape. Now both generations are concerned
:37:43. > :37:50.about what the future might hold. We're on the border as you know
:37:51. > :37:52.here, and it's maybe going across to our farm,
:37:53. > :37:55.back and forward, maybe we'd be Nobody seems to know
:37:56. > :37:58.at the minute, there's nothing set in stone,
:37:59. > :38:00.we don't know. The outgoing Ulster Unionist MP
:38:01. > :38:03.Tom Elliott backed leaving the EU. If he holds his seat,
:38:04. > :38:06.he promises to fight for a deal which will work for people living
:38:07. > :38:12.along the border. Like all her Sinn Fein colleagues,
:38:13. > :38:14.Michelle Gildernew will refuse to take her seat at Westminster
:38:15. > :38:22.if she wins, but she says she will lobby for Northern Ireland
:38:23. > :38:24.to retain special European status. I think Tom won the seat last
:38:25. > :38:27.time against the odds, and I think it's going to be even
:38:28. > :38:30.tougher for him this time. I think Sinn Fein were quite taken
:38:31. > :38:33.aback the last time at losing, there were some problems internally,
:38:34. > :38:35.some problems with their organisation of getting the vote
:38:36. > :38:38.out, and they were stung by that, so they will really
:38:39. > :38:45.go for it this time. Unlike Sinn Fein, the moderate
:38:46. > :38:49.nationalist SDLP candidate Mary Garrity promises both to fight
:38:50. > :38:51.Brexit and take a seat But if past elections
:38:52. > :38:57.here are anything to go by, she's likely to be a long way behind
:38:58. > :39:01.the front runners. It seems very likely that
:39:02. > :39:04.Sinn Fein will take the seat. They're on a roll, the SDLP
:39:05. > :39:10.candidate is not well known, and there's a feeling that,
:39:11. > :39:14.in the wider Catholic nationalist republican community,
:39:15. > :39:16.that unionists, having been pushed out of the majority,
:39:17. > :39:18.lost the majority in the last election here for the Assembly,
:39:19. > :39:24.should not be allowed pretend to re-establish it in a first
:39:25. > :39:29.past the post election. Besides being the most westerly
:39:30. > :39:32.constituency in this election, Fermanagh South Tyrone has to be one
:39:33. > :39:36.of the most picturesque. These are the stunning
:39:37. > :39:39.Marble Arch Caves, part of a limestone system
:39:40. > :39:44.which stretches under the border. Whatever happens to the border up
:39:45. > :39:47.on the surface, here the stalactites will continue to hang down
:39:48. > :39:52.and the stalagmites But these caves are the centrepiece
:39:53. > :40:00.of a cross-border geopark which has benefited from hundreds of thousands
:40:01. > :40:02.of pounds of European funding, so even down here the implications
:40:03. > :40:07.of Brexit run deep. And we're joined now from Belfast
:40:08. > :40:22.by DUP leader Arlene Foster. Welcome to the Daily Politics. A
:40:23. > :40:26.majority of people in Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU,
:40:27. > :40:29.yours was the only party to officially back Brexit. Why should
:40:30. > :40:35.anybody worried about Brexit vote for the DUP? The question was asked
:40:36. > :40:38.as a national question and that being the case we have to respect
:40:39. > :40:42.the National opinion, and that was that we are to leave the European
:40:43. > :40:47.Union. We are not fighting old battles. What we want to do now is
:40:48. > :40:49.get on and get the best deal for Northern Ireland in the EU
:40:50. > :40:54.negotiations and that is why it is very important that we have a strong
:40:55. > :40:58.team of DUP MPs return to Westminster on Thursday so they can
:40:59. > :41:02.speak up for Northern Ireland and stand strong for Northern Ireland
:41:03. > :41:07.will stop what might convince people to vote for the DUP is if you had
:41:08. > :41:12.assurances from the UK Government about how the customs arrangement
:41:13. > :41:18.will work on the Irish border. Those negotiations have just begun. The
:41:19. > :41:23.Irish Government and our own Government have said they don't want
:41:24. > :41:28.a hard border. That is not an assurance, is it? What we have do do
:41:29. > :41:34.now is work together to make sure that is a reality and use the
:41:35. > :41:40.technology at our disposal to make it happen in a way that respects the
:41:41. > :41:44.Common travel area before we entered the European Union. When I spoke to
:41:45. > :41:49.Sinn Fein a few days ago, they said they couldn't see any scenario in
:41:50. > :41:53.which there would be a totally frictionless border, whatever
:41:54. > :41:56.happened in the Brexit negotiations, and that would seriously hamper
:41:57. > :42:00.business interests and that Common travel area that you talked about.
:42:01. > :42:04.Of course Sinn Fein are the only people talking about a hard border
:42:05. > :42:08.and they are doing that for a very political reason, they said they
:42:09. > :42:12.want no Brexit, no border, no Tory cuts. They don't have a positive
:42:13. > :42:16.vision at all for Northern Ireland. But you cannot give the assurances
:42:17. > :42:27.that what they are saying is wrong. What I am saying is they are the
:42:28. > :42:29.only people saying, talking about a hard border but in actual fact
:42:30. > :42:31.everyone else is working very hard to make sure that doesn't happen.
:42:32. > :42:34.They are becoming very much, going back to their roots and becoming a
:42:35. > :42:36.party of protest, standing outside talking about what they don't want
:42:37. > :42:40.to see instead of getting on and making sure that we developed a
:42:41. > :42:43.Northern Ireland outside of the European Union that works for
:42:44. > :42:47.everybody. Let's talk about relations with Sinn Fein, the
:42:48. > :42:50.Stormont executive relies on good relations between first and Deputy
:42:51. > :42:55.First Minister, you compared Sinn Fein to a crocodile which would keep
:42:56. > :43:01.coming back for more if you feed it. Would you put the relationship with
:43:02. > :43:04.Michele O'Neil back after the election campaign saying things like
:43:05. > :43:11.that? That was the last campaign by Sinn Fein Haupt -- pulled out of the
:43:12. > :43:15.assembly and the executive. Why did they do that? Tell us about the
:43:16. > :43:18.heating scandal but you were criticised for? If you let me
:43:19. > :43:21.finish, they won't take their seats at Westminster either so they are
:43:22. > :43:25.becoming a party of protest as opposed to a party of Government
:43:26. > :43:30.that wants to get on and advocate for the people they represent and
:43:31. > :43:34.their mandate, so I think it is regrettable that that is the case. I
:43:35. > :43:39.would encourage them to come back to the table after the elections and
:43:40. > :43:42.should be realistic about setting back of the devolved institutions
:43:43. > :43:45.because I think everyone in Northern Ireland wants to see devolution
:43:46. > :43:49.working for everybody in Northern Ireland, not just one community but
:43:50. > :43:53.for everybody. Do you think you could build relations with Michelle
:43:54. > :43:57.O'Neill? I respect Michelle O'Neill and I would hope she would respect
:43:58. > :44:00.my mandate as leader of the largest party in Northern Ireland but we
:44:01. > :44:04.will have to see if that is the case after the elections on Thursday,
:44:05. > :44:06.whether she respects my mandate, because after the elections we go
:44:07. > :44:20.back into negotiations to try to get
:44:21. > :44:22.devolution back as quickly as possible. What are your red lines
:44:23. > :44:24.when it comes to power-sharing? And Irish language act, gay marriage,
:44:25. > :44:26.investigations into killings by state forces during the troubles?
:44:27. > :44:28.Those are all red lines from Sinn Fein, we don't have any red lines,
:44:29. > :44:33.we want to see devolution back up as quickly as we can. If we could start
:44:34. > :44:38.today, I would do so. Can I ask, why speaking to the Belfast Telegraph
:44:39. > :44:42.did a former minister said that same-sex marriage is a red line for
:44:43. > :44:46.his party that would prevent a Government being formed? I said
:44:47. > :44:49.those are red lines were Sinn Fein, they are saying they won't come back
:44:50. > :44:52.into Government until they get all of these things sorted out. What I'm
:44:53. > :44:57.saying is, let's get devolution back up and running and let's sort out
:44:58. > :45:01.these issues as elected representatives working for
:45:02. > :45:04.everybody, because people are hugely frustrated, they want to see us back
:45:05. > :45:07.in Government dealing with the reform of our health service, which
:45:08. > :45:14.desperately needs it, as we know from the waiting lists, they want to
:45:15. > :45:18.see us dealing with education and infrastructure and jobs, so it is
:45:19. > :45:22.wrong that Sinn Fein are holding us all to ransom and saying, unless all
:45:23. > :45:25.of these matters are dealt with, we won't go back into devolution. We
:45:26. > :45:28.want devolution back up and running now and it would be good if she
:45:29. > :45:33.would come back in with her party and start governing, that is of
:45:34. > :45:35.course what she was elected to do. Arlene Foster, thank you. it.
:45:36. > :45:38.Now it's time for the latest in our series of interviews
:45:39. > :45:42.with the smaller parties standing in the general election on Thursday.
:45:43. > :45:45.The National Health Action party was founded in 2012 by two
:45:46. > :45:48.consultants who opposed the Health and Social Care Act, which enacted
:45:49. > :45:52.The party would start by repealing the 2012 Health and Social Care Act
:45:53. > :45:54.which would reverse the reforms, including the removal
:45:55. > :45:58.of the requirement to tender out contracts to the private sector.
:45:59. > :46:02.They would also ensure that NHS funding increases in real
:46:03. > :46:08.And call for the abolition of prescription charges in England
:46:09. > :46:13.as is existing policy in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
:46:14. > :46:16.The party would introduce free social care and increase funding
:46:17. > :46:21.to meet the needs of vulnerable elderly and disabled people.
:46:22. > :46:23.And on Brexit the NHA want to safeguard the UK's
:46:24. > :46:27.collaboration with the EU on health issues and medical research.
:46:28. > :46:29.And now we are joined by the National Health Action
:46:30. > :46:45.Thank you for coming onto the programme. Why do we need your
:46:46. > :46:54.party? Our party started five years ago with the intention of fighting
:46:55. > :46:56.to defend the NHS against cuts, underfunding and private Eye
:46:57. > :47:02.Shenzhen. I think we need it now than ever before. I think we have
:47:03. > :47:07.influenced Labour Party policy at the moment which has moved closer to
:47:08. > :47:14.our position. But it is a single issue party? No, we fight on all the
:47:15. > :47:18.social determinants of health, and that includes housing, education,
:47:19. > :47:25.the environment, inequality, poverty and all those issues. You say you
:47:26. > :47:30.have influence the Labour Party, which part of the manifesto have
:47:31. > :47:34.been written with you in mind? We're part of a broader movement, moved it
:47:35. > :47:40.towards the manifesto, it talks about repealing the health and
:47:41. > :47:44.social care act. Which, we as a campaigner, I have been a campaigner
:47:45. > :47:48.on the NHS for many years, including under the Labour government, it has
:47:49. > :47:53.been reluctant to address the issue of privatisation of the NHS. I
:47:54. > :47:59.welcome that, but I feel we need people like our party and other
:48:00. > :48:03.campaigners to help. You thank Louise for your manifesto, it was
:48:04. > :48:08.under Labour that opting out to the private sector started? I am pleased
:48:09. > :48:15.to the endorsement. Would you have done it without them? Yes, and the
:48:16. > :48:20.party for the NHS is the Labour Party because we will put in 37
:48:21. > :48:24.billion to get rid of the waiting lists, get rid of the health and
:48:25. > :48:29.social care act tampered capital investment into the NHS. Not by
:48:30. > :48:33.forcing hospitals to sell off assets, we will give hospitals the
:48:34. > :48:38.money to rebuild them and invest in IT as well. Would you rather see a
:48:39. > :48:41.Labour Party elected than a Conservative Party? I would prefer
:48:42. > :48:48.the Labour Party, as long as they stayed true to their promises. In
:48:49. > :48:52.1997 Tony Blair promised to end the privatisation of the NHS and get rid
:48:53. > :48:59.of PFI, not to go forward with PFI and they did the complete opposite.
:49:00. > :49:01.We can't just trust people because of their manifesto. What you say
:49:02. > :49:08.about the funding, your proposed funding isn't even going to meet the
:49:09. > :49:14.projected rate of growth, if it kept up with GDP rates. He said the
:49:15. > :49:18.Labour Party will not keep pace with a growing elderly population and
:49:19. > :49:23.perhaps rising inflation at the moment. How would you fund an
:49:24. > :49:31.increase in NHS funding eye 4% in real terms every year? This is not a
:49:32. > :49:38.number we have picked out of the air. The OBR and other policies say
:49:39. > :49:45.to maintain the quality of services and meet growing the mind, three to
:49:46. > :49:51.4% is not keeping in line with the average running. People will want to
:49:52. > :49:55.know how to fund it? I will not be part of the government and not
:49:56. > :50:00.making detailed budget plans, but we will be pushing government, whoever
:50:01. > :50:04.is in government to meet the funding need. It can be done through
:50:05. > :50:08.taxation, in different ways, progressive taxation but also
:50:09. > :50:13.looking at tax avoidance, corporate tax and those things. It can be done
:50:14. > :50:18.by reducing the bureaucracy in the NHS and investing in health and
:50:19. > :50:24.education. Do you accept that actually, in order to meet the needs
:50:25. > :50:28.of a growing elderly population and rising costs, you need to look at
:50:29. > :50:37.funding of 4% in the round every year in real terms in the NHS? I had
:50:38. > :50:40.a look at the National health party manifesto, most G-7 countries have
:50:41. > :50:49.an insurance contribution -based approach. Like Germany for instance?
:50:50. > :50:54.Yes, and we are unique. The answer on funding is very clear, you have
:50:55. > :51:00.got to have a strong economy. The problem is, this wish list of issues
:51:01. > :51:05.you want to spend money on... If you have a strong economy, why can't you
:51:06. > :51:09.spend more if you have different priorities? It is the only way to
:51:10. > :51:12.get the revenue and it is revenue that pays for public services,
:51:13. > :51:18.having a wish list is for the birds, unless you have a strong economy and
:51:19. > :51:23.only the Conservatives can do that. Is there no role for the private
:51:24. > :51:27.sector within the NHS? They could be a small role where there are gaps in
:51:28. > :51:33.provision, temporarily. You shouldn't structure the NHS around
:51:34. > :51:37.the market-based system. It is wasteful, it fragments and it is
:51:38. > :51:42.chaotic and it short-changes patients because it diverts money
:51:43. > :51:46.from front-line care. We would have an NHS which is substantially a
:51:47. > :51:48.public service and we want to bring legislation to reinstated as a
:51:49. > :51:51.public servers, more than just repealing the health and social care
:51:52. > :51:57.act, reversing all of the privatisation. Thank you.
:51:58. > :52:00.As we enter the final days of the general election campaign,
:52:01. > :52:03.the pollsters have been very busy and we were greeted by a flurry
:52:04. > :52:07.An Opinium for the Observer found support for the Conservatives had
:52:08. > :52:11.dipped to 43% with Labour on 37%, the Lib Dems on 6% and Ukip on 5%
:52:12. > :52:13.and a Survation poll for the Sunday Times predicts
:52:14. > :52:16.support for the Conservatives will fall further to 40% with Labour
:52:17. > :52:22.I'm taking it to London's Southbank Centre to ask people's views
:52:23. > :52:25.And here's the question we're asking the great
:52:26. > :52:27.British public today, opinion polls -
:52:28. > :52:39.On the day, they never seem to come out as planned previously,
:52:40. > :52:41.so I think there's an element of fiction to it.
:52:42. > :52:48.OK, put it back in, very honest, very honest.
:52:49. > :52:51.Because what people say about what they're going
:52:52. > :52:54.to do isn't necessarily what they are going to do.
:52:55. > :52:56.Here's someone who juggles data for a living.
:52:57. > :53:01.What do you think about this as an opinion gathering method?
:53:02. > :53:05.Well, as my idol Peter Snow would say, it's just a bit of fun.
:53:06. > :53:07.When you are looking to do an accurate, scientific poll,
:53:08. > :53:13.you hope to accurately represent the population you are trying
:53:14. > :53:15.to survey in the sample that takes part in that survey.
:53:16. > :53:19.So, for instance you need the right number of old people,
:53:20. > :53:21.the right number of young people, the right number of
:53:22. > :53:27.After the last election, the professionals realised
:53:28. > :53:30.they didn't have the right number of Tory supporters and had spoken
:53:31. > :53:36.I think some people don't always say what they think.
:53:37. > :53:38.That's the problem, particularly Tory voters.
:53:39. > :54:01.And why are different polling companies coming up
:54:02. > :54:07.Usually you could come up with four or five reasons why pollsters
:54:08. > :54:09.are coming up with different numbers, but on this occasion
:54:10. > :54:13.there is something quite straightforward going on.
:54:14. > :54:16.And it's whether or not you believe young people and people who didn't
:54:17. > :54:20.turn out in the last general election in 2015, who now
:54:21. > :54:22.say they are going to, whether they actually do.
:54:23. > :54:27.If you believe them, then it's a closer race.
:54:28. > :54:30.Those pollsters who are saying it is a three, four point lead
:54:31. > :54:35.If, like me and you tend to be suspicious of people who say
:54:36. > :54:41.they will change behaviours which are fairly embedded
:54:42. > :54:43.in historical precedent, then you should believe the likes
:54:44. > :54:46.of me and I'm saying currently it's a 12 point
:54:47. > :54:49.We are doing a survey about opinion polls...
:54:50. > :54:52.In other words, are we all asking too many youngsters and people
:54:53. > :54:57.Do you pick up the newspaper every day and go, "I wonder
:54:58. > :55:02.No, I'm pretty sure what the polls are going to say.
:55:03. > :55:05.Theresa May is still ahead but Labour is squeezing in there.
:55:06. > :55:08.YouGov has suggested that would result in a hung parliament.
:55:09. > :55:13.Based on the current polling, we produced a broad range
:55:14. > :55:18.At the time, it was anything from 274 to 345 seats
:55:19. > :55:25.You need 326 for a majority, at that time it was possible that
:55:26. > :55:30.a hung parliament could occur, if there was an election that day.
:55:31. > :55:33.The headline was, "YouGov Predicts A Hung Parliament."
:55:34. > :55:39.What you often see during an election campaign
:55:40. > :55:43.is that the interpretation polls, whether it's by broadcasters
:55:44. > :55:45.or the media, or social media, is somewhat different
:55:46. > :55:49.from the interpretation of the polls we put out.
:55:50. > :55:52.After three sweltering hours of doing this...
:55:53. > :55:57.Who's got some opinions they'd like to share with me?
:55:58. > :56:01.Maybe the politicians have a point, the polls are fascinating snapshots,
:56:02. > :56:06.but it's the one on June the 8th that's most accurate.
:56:07. > :56:09.There we go, a big majority of people here on the Southbank
:56:10. > :56:11.think the opinion polls are more fiction than science.
:56:12. > :56:13.And here ends possibly the dodgiest opinion poll
:56:14. > :56:34.That has never stopped the Daily Politics and both of you are banned
:56:35. > :56:38.in the next discussion by saying the only one counts is Thursday. There
:56:39. > :56:44.is a confused picture and the polls seem to have a Conservative lead of
:56:45. > :56:48.1% of the 12%, but there is a general trend in support going to
:56:49. > :56:55.Labour? The polls have definitely narrowed. We would argue there could
:56:56. > :57:00.be Jeremy Corbyn in Number Ten. But as a candidate, the polling thing is
:57:01. > :57:05.a distraction. It is great for the media, different story huge day. Do
:57:06. > :57:08.you ever look at the polls? I keep an eye on them, but it is a
:57:09. > :57:13.distraction on getting the message across. We are getting the message
:57:14. > :57:17.across on leadership. All this tittle tattle about polls,
:57:18. > :57:23.particularly when they are so far ranging and so far apart, is a
:57:24. > :57:26.distraction. It is good for the media, I am not so sure it is good
:57:27. > :57:31.for the country and for a politician trying to get elected. Do you ignore
:57:32. > :57:35.them all together or are you taking more interest now as they seem to be
:57:36. > :57:40.moving in your direction with a focus on younger people voting
:57:41. > :57:46.Labour? I have ignored them since the last general election. I
:57:47. > :57:50.thought, in 2015, I thought we were heading towards a hung parliament
:57:51. > :57:55.and then the exit poll came out at ten o'clock. What I would say is,
:57:56. > :58:00.seven or eight weeks ago, it felt like the Conservatives were very far
:58:01. > :58:04.ahead. I am still getting on the doorstep, people raising the
:58:05. > :58:07.dementia tax, the Tories taking away free school meals. I think people
:58:08. > :58:17.have looked that Theresa May, she is not what she thought, she doesn't
:58:18. > :58:21.represent what they thought she was. She has been exposed under the
:58:22. > :58:27.scrutiny, the same as Jeremy Corbyn. Your media love to do this thing
:58:28. > :58:31.based on the frostiness of the polls. We have seen on economy and
:58:32. > :58:38.Brexit. I feel a party message coming on. She has shown she has got
:58:39. > :58:41.the leadership and has got the strength of character frankly, to
:58:42. > :58:46.lead this country on the key issue that counts, which will be the
:58:47. > :58:47.Brexit negotiation. She cut the NHS, she got skills and she will carry on
:58:48. > :58:50.cutting the police. The One o'clock News is starting
:58:51. > :58:54.over on BBC One now. I'll be here at noon
:58:55. > :58:57.tomorrow with all the big political stories of the day,
:58:58. > :59:00.do join me then.