:00:38. > :00:42.Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:43. > :00:46.One person has died and ten people have been injured after a van
:00:47. > :00:49.ploughed into pedestrians outside a mosque in north London.
:00:50. > :00:54.The attack is being treated as a terrorist incident.
:00:55. > :00:56.A 48-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of attempted murder
:00:57. > :01:04.Theresa May has chaired the Government's emergency
:01:05. > :01:09.Brexit Secretary David Davis arrives in Brussels for the start of formal
:01:10. > :01:17.But has the Government's negotiating strategy changed since the election?
:01:18. > :01:20.The police confirm that 79 people are now dead or presumed dead
:01:21. > :01:28.Theresa May is due to chair a meeting of the taskforce
:01:29. > :01:29.co-ordinating the Government's reponse.
:01:30. > :01:31.But how damaged has she been by her handling
:01:32. > :01:43.And with us for the whole of the programme today
:01:44. > :01:45.are the Conservative MP Nadhim Zahawi, and the Labour
:01:46. > :01:53.First today, a man has died and ten people have been injured after a van
:01:54. > :01:55.was driven into a group of worshippers outside
:01:56. > :01:58.the Muslim Welfare House on Seven Sisters Road in north
:01:59. > :02:09.According to eyewitness accounts, the alleged attacker was held down
:02:10. > :02:13.by members of the public before being later arrested by the police.
:02:14. > :02:16.This morning, the police confirmed that they're treating the incident
:02:17. > :02:23.Here's how those on the scene described events unfolding.
:02:24. > :02:27.There was a man laying down on the floor who had,
:02:28. > :02:32.I think, a heart attack, and there were two, a couple
:02:33. > :02:35.of people there, giving him CPR, trying to talk to him,
:02:36. > :02:44.Within a minute, me and friends we were there, and within a minute,
:02:45. > :02:54.And then there was people underneath the van.
:02:55. > :02:59.And it was shocking, and then he came out
:03:00. > :03:01.from the van, running, he was saying, "I want
:03:02. > :03:03.to kill more Muslims, I want to kill more Muslims."
:03:04. > :03:05.And then other people were running behind him,
:03:06. > :03:09.we got him down to the ground, tackled him down to the ground,
:03:10. > :03:14.we managed to make him down until the police came.
:03:15. > :03:18.Neil Basu, senior counter-terrorism officer for the Metropolitan Police,
:03:19. > :03:19.said the incident had "all the hallmarks"
:03:20. > :03:29.No matter what the motivation for this attack proves to be,
:03:30. > :03:33.This is being treated as a terrorist attack.
:03:34. > :03:34.The Counter Terrorism Command is investigating.
:03:35. > :03:36.This was an attack on London and all Londoners.
:03:37. > :03:38.We should all stand together against extremists
:03:39. > :03:46.From 21 minutes past midnight this morning,
:03:47. > :03:50.police received a number of calls to Seven Sisters Road following
:03:51. > :03:55.a van having collided with pedestrians.
:03:56. > :04:11.Officers were in the immediate vicinity at the time
:04:12. > :04:12.and as the attack unfolded, and they responded instantly.
:04:13. > :04:13.Additional officers were on the scene within ten minutes.
:04:14. > :04:14.One man as I said was pronounced dead at the scene.
:04:15. > :04:14.Eight others are in hospital and two more were treated at the scene.
:04:15. > :04:18.All the victims were from the Muslim community.
:04:19. > :04:20.I would like to praise the police officers who immediately responded
:04:21. > :04:24.and gave life-saving treatment at the scene.
:04:25. > :04:27.But also very much those members of the public who assisted before
:04:28. > :04:32.Let's talk to our correspondent Sima Kotecha who is at
:04:33. > :04:46.I know you have been following this for several hours.
:04:47. > :04:50.Can you bring us up to date? Here is a synopsis. We know this
:04:51. > :04:56.attack took place just after midnight, a van rammed into a group
:04:57. > :05:01.of Muslim worshippers, they were just coming out after doing their
:05:02. > :05:04.nightly prayers when a van rammed into them.
:05:05. > :05:08.Ten people were injured, eight of which were taken to hospital. One
:05:09. > :05:14.person has died but it is not clear whether that fatality is down to the
:05:15. > :05:19.attack or something else. Police are investigating. A
:05:20. > :05:24.48-year-old Mike white man has been arrested on suspicion of attempted
:05:25. > :05:32.murder. We have been speaking to locals, there has been a multi-faith
:05:33. > :05:37.gathering, priests, vicars, imams, bringing the community together,
:05:38. > :05:41.saying they are here to relate a message of solidarity and say they
:05:42. > :05:45.are here to give people reassurance they will not be divided as a
:05:46. > :05:50.community. Speaking to Muslims, some are very
:05:51. > :05:56.angry. I have covered the last three attacks, speaking to Muslims up and
:05:57. > :06:01.down the country. During that time, they have been saying to me, we feel
:06:02. > :06:07.vulnerable, we feel under attack, these people committing these
:06:08. > :06:14.attacks are allowing people to paint us all with the same brush. There is
:06:15. > :06:17.that vulnerability coming through, and a feeling of anger and
:06:18. > :06:22.frustration. You say faith leaders have been on
:06:23. > :06:29.the streets at the scene of the attack, trying to comfort to people.
:06:30. > :06:33.What about the political reaction? Such is the Communities Secretary
:06:34. > :06:37.was here in little while ago, he went to the site where the van
:06:38. > :06:43.rammed into those people coming he was talking to locals, speaking to
:06:44. > :06:47.multi-faith leaders, saying, we have two come together. He said it makes
:06:48. > :06:52.him happy to see people from different religions here today,
:06:53. > :06:54.telling each other they love each other and care.
:06:55. > :06:57.He said there would be extra security around mosques in the
:06:58. > :07:07.country. We heard Amber Rudd say ?2.5 million
:07:08. > :07:12.is available for extra security. Jeremy Corbyn is coming here around
:07:13. > :07:15.1pm. He is the local MP. He sent a tweet he was shocked and saddened by
:07:16. > :07:21.what had happened. We are expecting him here this afternoon.
:07:22. > :07:25.There are rumours Theresa May might be here this afternoon but I must
:07:26. > :07:26.stress they are just rumours at the moment.
:07:27. > :07:29.Thank you. Theresa May chaired a meeting
:07:30. > :07:45.of the Government's She left that meeting
:07:46. > :07:50.a short time ago. It is a reminder that terrorism,
:07:51. > :07:52.extremism and hatred take many forms, and our determination
:07:53. > :07:55.to tackle them must be the same As I said here two weeks ago,
:07:56. > :07:59.there has been far too much tolerance of extremism
:08:00. > :08:01.in our country over many years, and that means extremism of any
:08:02. > :08:04.kind, including Islamophobia. That is why this government will act
:08:05. > :08:09.to stamp out extremist and hateful ideology,
:08:10. > :08:13.both across society and on the internet, so it is denied
:08:14. > :08:18.a safe space to grow. It is why we will be reviewing
:08:19. > :08:20.our counterterrorism strategy, and ensuring that police
:08:21. > :08:22.and security services And it is why we will establish
:08:23. > :08:30.a new commission for countering extremism as a statutory body,
:08:31. > :08:33.to help fight hatred and extremism in the same way
:08:34. > :08:37.as we have fought racism. Because this extremism is every bit
:08:38. > :08:40.as insidious and destructive to our values and our way
:08:41. > :08:42.of life, and we will stop And here's what the Labour
:08:43. > :08:51.leader Jeremy Corbyn, who is also the local MP,
:08:52. > :08:54.had to say when he visited We have had some attacks
:08:55. > :09:07.on Finsbury Park Mosque in the past. We have had some threats made to
:09:08. > :09:10.the Muslim Welfare House and other An attack on a mosque, an attack
:09:11. > :09:14.on a synagogue, on a church We have to protect each other's
:09:15. > :09:19.faith, each other's way of life and that is what makes us a strong
:09:20. > :09:23.society and community. We're joined now by Miqdaad Versi
:09:24. > :09:35.from the Muslim Council Of Britain. And my two guests are still here.
:09:36. > :09:40.Are you happy this is being treated with the seriousness it deserves?
:09:41. > :09:45.Many were concerned it wouldn't be but that is. The Prime Minister is
:09:46. > :09:50.taking it very seriously with a Cobra meeting, the Mayor of London
:09:51. > :09:55.getting extra police to reassure Muslims concerned at their local
:09:56. > :10:00.mosque. Amber Rudd coming out very forcefully.
:10:01. > :10:04.This is a good first step. We have to recognise, however, many
:10:05. > :10:09.Muslim communities have been talking about the rise in hate crime against
:10:10. > :10:16.Muslims for many years. Unfortunately there has not been the
:10:17. > :10:22.action we expected. What we want now is that there can be no tolerance
:10:23. > :10:26.for this form of extremism wherever it comes from. Which has been
:10:27. > :10:29.spreading far too much. Do you think there hasn't been
:10:30. > :10:35.enough recognition of Islam phobia which has been going on in the past
:10:36. > :10:42.through -- few years? The Prime Minister was right, during
:10:43. > :10:51.the campaign when we had the attack on Manchester and on Borough market,
:10:52. > :10:55.to say we will be intolerant of intolerance, innocent people who
:10:56. > :11:01.have broken fast, going to pair, coming together to prepare in the
:11:02. > :11:07.early hours before sunrise, being attacked, that is equally not
:11:08. > :11:15.acceptable in our society. We must not leave any safe spaces for it. It
:11:16. > :11:21.is far too easy. There are criminal elements who hijack the religion of
:11:22. > :11:26.Islam, who attack innocent girls going to a concert in Manchester, it
:11:27. > :11:31.is equally bad to have someone attacked the Muslim community. It is
:11:32. > :11:36.far too easy to say sometimes we focus on one but not the other. The
:11:37. > :11:39.Prime Minister is right to say this commission will focus on all types
:11:40. > :11:45.of extremism. Has it come too late in terms of
:11:46. > :11:48.facing up to people feeling angry in the Muslim community, feeling
:11:49. > :11:52.vulnerable and under attack? We are having to deal with this.
:11:53. > :11:56.This extremism issue is something the whole of Europe is dealing with,
:11:57. > :12:04.not just the UK. The more we attack Daesh who had
:12:05. > :12:08.been taken out of Iraq almost completely in the last few weeks,
:12:09. > :12:14.the more they will lash out. The more you have captions people like
:12:15. > :12:19.the English Defence League and Tommy Robinson.
:12:20. > :12:21.We have to go after those just as hard.
:12:22. > :12:24.Do you think Theresa May has dealt with this quickly and seriously in
:12:25. > :12:36.the weight as I said it should be? We need to look at the context, the
:12:37. > :12:40.way in which the tabloid press deal with this, they demonise the Muslim
:12:41. > :12:45.community, and I welcome the comments about being intolerant of
:12:46. > :12:49.intolerance, I would welcome intolerant of the tabloid media, who
:12:50. > :12:54.have been absolutely shocking. This is another truly appalling incident
:12:55. > :12:58.on the streets of London, and we have to do more to tackle that, the
:12:59. > :13:02.intolerant of the way the gutter press demonise Muslim communities,
:13:03. > :13:06.and it means reviewing the Prevent strategy, and it also means
:13:07. > :13:09.reversing many of the funding cuts we have seen in public services,
:13:10. > :13:15.which can help to address some of these issues. Youth services have
:13:16. > :13:18.seen massive reductions, and it is not just about funding police
:13:19. > :13:23.properly, although that does need to be done, but we need to look at
:13:24. > :13:28.other public services. You have made a lot of points, let's deal with the
:13:29. > :13:32.here and now, what about increased security outside mosques, is that
:13:33. > :13:37.necessary? Many Muslim curve unities are very worried and feel unsafe to
:13:38. > :13:41.some extent, they are worried that large numbers of people will be
:13:42. > :13:44.attending, and that might result in being a potential target. Having
:13:45. > :13:48.police on the street is something that might be very helpful and
:13:49. > :13:52.reassure people. Sadiq Khan has done that very well. I would like to pick
:13:53. > :13:55.up on a point that has been made earlier, many parts of the media
:13:56. > :14:00.have really spread this kind of hate. We have talked about hate
:14:01. > :14:03.speech, how it is an acceptable, not tolerated, and now we know that the
:14:04. > :14:08.BBC and many others will not have Anjem Choudary and others on the TV,
:14:09. > :14:13.despite having had them in the past. What about the same people on the
:14:14. > :14:18.right? What about Douglas Murray, who on the show said that less Islam
:14:19. > :14:23.is the answer to terrorism. Even within a show like this, giving a
:14:24. > :14:27.platform to people like that, to spread their hate, is unacceptable,
:14:28. > :14:40.and we should not tolerate it. Do you think they should be a
:14:41. > :14:47.clamp-down on looking, -- looking at far right extremists. The murder of
:14:48. > :14:51.Jo Cox was considered a terrorist incident by somebody who had signed
:14:52. > :14:56.up to the Nazi ideology. My parents were immigrants to this country, and
:14:57. > :15:01.they came because of the values of tolerance, freedom, democracy, rule
:15:02. > :15:06.of law. Anyone who decides to preach hatred and extremism against those
:15:07. > :15:11.values should be called out. At either extreme. But has it been done
:15:12. > :15:17.enough? The point being made, has the Government's aye been taken off
:15:18. > :15:19.the ball because of its focus on Islamic extremism? Has there been a
:15:20. > :15:25.tendency to ignore what has been going on on the other side, on the
:15:26. > :15:29.far right? I do not think there has, I think in the UK, if you look at
:15:30. > :15:34.the difference between the UK and France, where the National Front has
:15:35. > :15:37.done so well, we have effectively pulled the rug from under the
:15:38. > :15:42.extremists. But the number of incidents has gone up dramatically
:15:43. > :15:47.in the last few years. I don't disagree, and we have just heard
:15:48. > :15:52.someone talking about the BBC, or other media outlets. We all have to
:15:53. > :15:56.examine our conscience and content. If you put a headline out that
:15:57. > :16:01.demonise is a particular part of our society that we care about, we have
:16:02. > :16:04.seen rabbis and priests coming together today, what message are you
:16:05. > :16:14.sending to those who could be radicalised on the right extreme or
:16:15. > :16:19.the Islamism or the jihadism? That is only part of the answer, but if
:16:20. > :16:24.that alone does not work, you need to look at the massive funding cuts,
:16:25. > :16:28.I have already made his point, in relation to youth services, policing
:16:29. > :16:33.and so on. I saw a security expert on Newsnight suggesting that not of
:16:34. > :16:41.the constabularies, other than perhaps the Met, are geared up
:16:42. > :16:46.enough in terms of tacklers -- tackling terrorism. But what about
:16:47. > :16:52.dealing with the ideologies at source? You have mentioned cuts to
:16:53. > :16:57.the police... The counterterrorism budget has been protected... There
:16:58. > :17:00.was a security expert on Newsnight suggesting that none of the other
:17:01. > :17:03.constabularies around the country is geared up. But look, it is not
:17:04. > :17:08.enough, dealing with the source, but you can help to tackle that by
:17:09. > :17:12.reversing some of these funding cuts, neighbourhood policing, as I
:17:13. > :17:18.have mentioned, youth services. What about Prevent? Labour wanted to
:17:19. > :17:23.review it, but many felt it did a good job. We have seen terrorism
:17:24. > :17:27.incidents, and it puts far too much emphasis on the Muslim community,
:17:28. > :17:31.and we have got to look much wider than that, clearly this appalling
:17:32. > :17:37.incident yesterday is proof of that point. We have had people who said
:17:38. > :17:40.that a lot of the work Prevent did, the de-radicalise is an strategy put
:17:41. > :17:45.forward by the Government, has had a lot of success, but people have only
:17:46. > :17:49.focused on the failures, do you accept that? There will always be
:17:50. > :17:54.successes, but what is worth recognising is whether it is human
:17:55. > :17:59.rights groups, free-speech advocates, United Nations, European
:18:00. > :18:05.Union, Muslim organisations, the royal college psychiatrists, all of
:18:06. > :18:17.these different groups saying that Prevent is not working or that there
:18:18. > :18:23.are serious concerns about it. It is worth recognising, I am of the
:18:24. > :18:27.opinion that Prevent needs to be reviewed, like David Anderson, the
:18:28. > :18:31.previous reviewer of terrorism legislation, so let's have a view,
:18:32. > :18:35.let's engage with Muslim communities, because we need to work
:18:36. > :18:40.together. Should the Prime Minister go to the scene of this attack
:18:41. > :18:46.today? I think she will go to the scene of the attack, Sajid Javid as
:18:47. > :18:50.Secretary of State for communities went first thing this morning, I
:18:51. > :18:55.think it is right to demonstrate to the Muslim community, in the month
:18:56. > :18:59.of Ramadan, this is a sacred place, as she rightly pointed out. It is
:19:00. > :19:04.right for her to be seen in solidarity with the Muslim
:19:05. > :19:09.community. She should do more than just visit the scene, but they need
:19:10. > :19:13.to be doing more, reviewing the things I have talked about. But you
:19:14. > :19:15.would like to address the community. I think it is absolutely right. Very
:19:16. > :19:18.much so. So today marks the start
:19:19. > :19:21.of the formal negotiations on the UK leaving the EU,
:19:22. > :19:23.with Brexit Secretary David Davis travelling
:19:24. > :19:38.to Brussels to begin talks. He met Michel Barnier, and both men
:19:39. > :19:40.promise they've positive tone to discussions.
:19:41. > :19:42.But after Theresa May failed to secure a majority
:19:43. > :19:44.in the general election, there have been calls
:19:45. > :19:46.for the Government to water down its demands on Brexit.
:19:47. > :19:48.Yesterday, Chancellor Philip Hammond,
:19:49. > :19:51.who supported the Remain campaign, confirmed that the Government
:19:52. > :19:53.would continue to seek to leave the single market
:19:54. > :19:58.But he indicated that "some kind of transitional structures"
:19:59. > :20:01.will be needed to smooth the UK's exit.
:20:02. > :20:04.And while he said no deal would be "a very, very bad outcome,"
:20:05. > :20:07.he said a worse outcome would be a deal
:20:08. > :20:11.that is "deliberately structured to punish us."
:20:12. > :20:14.For Labour, Shadow Brexit Secretary Kier Starmer
:20:15. > :20:17.also ruled out remaining in the single market
:20:18. > :20:20.but said the UK could stay in customs union.
:20:21. > :20:22.And he refused to confirm which way Labour would vote
:20:23. > :20:33.which would transfer existing EU law onto the UK statute books.
:20:34. > :20:36.We are joined now from Brussels by the German MEP and chair
:20:37. > :20:43.of the European Parliament Committee on Foreign Affairs, Elmar Brok.
:20:44. > :20:50.He will be part of the EU parliaments negotiating team. Elmar
:20:51. > :20:54.Brok, welcome to the Daily Politics, does the UK in your mind considered
:20:55. > :20:56.Theresa May's negotiating position to have been weakened by the
:20:57. > :21:04.election result in the UK? I think we would prefer to have a
:21:05. > :21:10.strong government with a broad majority which would be able to do
:21:11. > :21:14.compromises. We are afraid that the weak Prime Minister with a weak
:21:15. > :21:17.government and a lack of authority will have more difficulties to do
:21:18. > :21:22.proper compromises which we need to come to a successful end. What sort
:21:23. > :21:28.of compromises are you talking about? , we have to talk about the
:21:29. > :21:36.right of citizens, about British obligations, about the Irish issue,
:21:37. > :21:39.but then we have to find a way to negotiate a free trade agreement,
:21:40. > :21:46.because Britain until now has said that they do not want to stay in the
:21:47. > :21:50.internal market and the customs union, and for such a negotiation
:21:51. > :21:55.for a free-trade agreement, is very difficult, which as many
:21:56. > :22:00.complications, we need to have compromises. We want constructive
:22:01. > :22:07.solutions, non-Brexit is the really hard Brexit, back to WTO, this would
:22:08. > :22:12.be very costly for all of us, but more for Britain, because of the
:22:13. > :22:15.different size of the two entities. But do you agree with Chancellor
:22:16. > :22:21.Philip Hammond that there would be a transitional period where the UK, to
:22:22. > :22:25.some extent, would remain in the EU while that transition is going on,
:22:26. > :22:33.so he said there would be more of a slope than a cliff edge coming out
:22:34. > :22:35.of the EU? I think that is true, we negotiate first the divorce
:22:36. > :22:45.agreement, which must be ready until the 29th of March 2019. This, for
:22:46. > :22:49.example, a free-trade agreement will need a little bit more, and in order
:22:50. > :22:56.to avoid hard Brexit we will need a transitional arrangement until this
:22:57. > :22:59.is really finished and negotiated and ratified in parliaments, and
:23:00. > :23:03.therefore I think this idea of a transitional period is also part of
:23:04. > :23:08.the negotiation guidelines of the European Union, and I welcome this
:23:09. > :23:12.idea by Philip Hammond. You talked a little bit about the fact that the
:23:13. > :23:18.EU would have preferred to be negotiating with a strong leader,
:23:19. > :23:23.someone who had a convincing win in the election on either side - does
:23:24. > :23:29.that results change the strategy of the EU in these negotiations, are
:23:30. > :23:35.they going to change their stance? No, we have no reason for that. 27
:23:36. > :23:41.amber countries, Parliament, commission and Council have agreed
:23:42. > :23:45.on the mandate, and I have never seen such a broad understanding
:23:46. > :23:49.between the different players, and we wait now for the British
:23:50. > :23:56.position, which we do not know yet so precise as we have publicised it,
:23:57. > :24:01.and we hope that we will find here the basis that we can start the
:24:02. > :24:06.negotiation point by point. But you make it sound, Elmar Brok, as if
:24:07. > :24:10.there will be a change from the position that the government here
:24:11. > :24:13.has set out, Theresa May position in the Lancaster House macro speech,
:24:14. > :24:18.which is that the UK will be the single market and the customs union,
:24:19. > :24:28.and there will be an end to freedom of movement, so in that sense,
:24:29. > :24:31.changed. No, that has not changed - if that is the real point for the
:24:32. > :24:36.negotiations. But we have so many voices in the last days and weeks in
:24:37. > :24:40.the United Kingdom, discussing the way of the customs union and so on,
:24:41. > :24:45.that this might have led to confusion. But nothing of that has
:24:46. > :24:51.been put on us, because our position is ready, and we wait for the
:24:52. > :24:56.position of the United Kingdom in the negotiations. Too many voices,
:24:57. > :25:00.Elmar Brok has said, in the UK - that has led to confusion, do you
:25:01. > :25:05.agree? Yes, I do, and I will tell you for why. In the last Parliament,
:25:06. > :25:09.on the Foreign Affairs Committee, we had an inquiry into what would
:25:10. > :25:13.happen if there was no deal, and the last commissioner came before the
:25:14. > :25:21.committee, and I asked him, what should we do? This was an arch
:25:22. > :25:29.Remainer, and he said we must get behind the Prime Minister and to
:25:30. > :25:34.allow her to negotiate on our behalf and have a formal position that we
:25:35. > :25:38.all agree on. I am really saying that Labour are in confusion about
:25:39. > :25:42.that... We will come to Labour, I am talking about within Tory ranks. I
:25:43. > :25:47.am talking about Parliament, this is a national interest issue now,
:25:48. > :25:51.entering the negotiation, we must align behind our negotiating team to
:25:52. > :25:54.get the best deal, otherwise our interlocutor is on the other side
:25:55. > :25:59.watching, and they will exploit any weakness or confusion that there may
:26:00. > :26:04.be. So my plea to Labour colleagues is get behind the Prime Minister in
:26:05. > :26:07.the national interest. The national interest is not being served by the
:26:08. > :26:14.Prime Minister. My theory is that she is happy to walk away with no
:26:15. > :26:16.deal and turn Britain into an deregulation offshore taxation, and
:26:17. > :26:22.that is what we have got to guard against. What has given you the
:26:23. > :26:26.evidence to think that? Look at the ideology that underpins where the
:26:27. > :26:30.Tory party are coming from, look at what they have done over the 18
:26:31. > :26:36.years in government, look at the way they deregulated the labour market,
:26:37. > :26:40.financial services - we have manufacturing... Labour also
:26:41. > :26:46.deregulated the financial sector. They bought into that consensus. We
:26:47. > :26:50.did make mistakes, yes. What about the customs union? Yesterday, Keir
:26:51. > :26:54.Starmer, representing Labour in terms of the Brexit negotiations,
:26:55. > :27:00.said we could remain in the customs union, is he right? We have got to
:27:01. > :27:04.negotiate the best possible deal in terms of ordinary people, it may do,
:27:05. > :27:07.but we have to make sure that anything that we negotiate works in
:27:08. > :27:15.the interests of ordinary people, not the kind of people at the top of
:27:16. > :27:20.society, the 0.1% at the top will have done incredibly well out of
:27:21. > :27:24.neoliberalism. Can I come back to this confusion on the Labour side?
:27:25. > :27:30.Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell said we would leave the single
:27:31. > :27:35.market in the customs union, Keir Starmer says we can, doesn't Labour
:27:36. > :27:39.need to have a clear voice on this? We will hold the Government to
:27:40. > :27:43.account, we will push for the best possible deal... Everybody wants the
:27:44. > :27:50.best possible deal. Are we in or out of the customs union?
:27:51. > :28:01.In the end we had to secure tariff free access to the market. We have
:28:02. > :28:04.Toyota, a big investor, one of the biggest we have seen in this
:28:05. > :28:10.country, the danger is we will have to start paying tariffs on the goods
:28:11. > :28:17.we sell... So, it sounds like... The Great
:28:18. > :28:51.Repeal Bill, all these regulations which is do all these good things...
:28:52. > :28:51.We need to reassure workers in our country.
:28:52. > :28:52.With the trade union act! Are you going to support that repeal
:28:53. > :28:52.bill? We will come back to you on that.
:28:53. > :28:55.Can I just say, could the UK leads the single market and still say in
:28:56. > :29:02.the customs union? There are limitations for the UK.
:29:03. > :29:06.They cannot have every country in the trade agreement, some agreements
:29:07. > :29:14.have to be fulfilled and if they are ready to do so we are happy.
:29:15. > :29:19.The German Foreign Minister seemed over the weekend to suggest a
:29:20. > :29:23.reduced jurisdiction for EU judges over Britain and continued access to
:29:24. > :29:27.the single market, in return for some freedom of movement in the UK.
:29:28. > :29:34.Is that a viable option do you think?
:29:35. > :29:40.I think I have not totally understood what it means, half of it
:29:41. > :29:43.and half of it not. If you have legal jurisdiction you must have
:29:44. > :29:46.full legal jurisdiction, I do not see how it would work in the
:29:47. > :29:50.practical sense. If you want to be a member of the
:29:51. > :29:55.internal market you have to fulfil the conditions for everyone.
:29:56. > :30:02.Switzerland and Sweden, except free movement of labour. If there is no
:30:03. > :30:07.reason to do so we will have problems with the integrity of the
:30:08. > :30:10.internal market which is of utmost importance.
:30:11. > :30:16.Does there need to be an exit bill and if so how much should it be in
:30:17. > :30:21.your mind? I do not know, I would not call it a
:30:22. > :30:26.bill. It is a divorce agreement. When
:30:27. > :30:34.European civil servants have worked for 45 years for the UK, then we
:30:35. > :30:40.believe it is only fair that the UK takes the share of the pensions of
:30:41. > :30:42.these people, for example. If we have decided certain projects
:30:43. > :30:51.together to finance it, then everyone should take its share for
:30:52. > :30:58.that. I think it is only fair. How much it will be is another question.
:30:59. > :31:02.He has a point, why should the UK pay up for that share of
:31:03. > :31:08.obligations? Clearly obligations are there, we
:31:09. > :31:12.haven't said we won't. But, when you start spinning numbers like 100
:31:13. > :31:17.billion that the UK would pay, I don't know where that Amber comes
:31:18. > :31:22.from. We have to look at the real numbers. At the end of the day,
:31:23. > :31:25.negotiation is about making sure we address our obligations to our
:31:26. > :31:33.partners. We remain European. We inject 60
:31:34. > :31:37.billion of demand into the EU 27. You agree a price has to be paid.
:31:38. > :31:43.Some in the Conservative Party sake there is no legal obligation to pay
:31:44. > :31:48.up. But you agree there is some obligation.
:31:49. > :31:52.If we made that commitment, we need to make sure the numbers are robust
:31:53. > :32:06.and we can fulfil our obligations. Should the Government position now
:32:07. > :32:07.be able sign up to the suggestion the divorce bill is settled first?
:32:08. > :32:11.I would like to make sure we settle the issue of European citizens
:32:12. > :32:17.living in the UK. As far as British citizens living in Europe.
:32:18. > :32:24.Then we can look at the financial obligations, as well as, as the
:32:25. > :32:29.Spanish Foreign Minister suggested, look at free and unfettered access
:32:30. > :32:35.to the single market for the UK. We can do that in good faith. What
:32:36. > :32:39.is more important, the economy or reducing immigration?
:32:40. > :32:45.We need to take control of our borders and our laws, and make sure
:32:46. > :32:50.our economy remains open and robust. JL la has announced further 5000
:32:51. > :32:55.jobs in the UK. They wouldn't be doing that unless they think this
:32:56. > :33:00.Government can negotiate a good deal in the EU. I think we will forget
:33:01. > :33:13.behind them. But we need to honour our
:33:14. > :33:15.obligations. There are people... People in the Conservative Party say
:33:16. > :33:20.we shouldn't pay anything but if we are going to get a decent deal, then
:33:21. > :33:29.we have obviously got to honour our obligations.
:33:30. > :33:34.Thanks you very much. I'm sure we will speak to you again over the
:33:35. > :33:38.next few years! Meet the obligations, then get a
:33:39. > :33:48.good deal. That is what Michel Barnier once. --
:33:49. > :33:49.wants. As we've been discussing,
:33:50. > :33:51.formal negotiations on the UK's exit from the EU start today
:33:52. > :33:54.between the EU's Michel Barnier and Brexit Secretary
:33:55. > :33:56.David Davis in Brussels. Tomorrow, Chancellor
:33:57. > :33:57.Phillip Hammond and Bank of England Governor Mark Carney
:33:58. > :33:59.make their annual Mansion House speeches on the state
:34:00. > :34:01.of the British economy. On Wednesday, it's the State
:34:02. > :34:03.Opening of Parliament which outlines the Government's
:34:04. > :34:07.agenda for the year. there's a European Council
:34:08. > :34:12.meeting in Brussels, issues including migration,
:34:13. > :34:16.security and Brexit. We're joined now by Laura Hughes
:34:17. > :34:29.from the Daily Telegraph Welcome to both of you. Laura
:34:30. > :34:34.Hughes, Brexit negotiations, will David Davis signal a softening in
:34:35. > :34:40.turn to his European counterparts? He already has, today is about the
:34:41. > :34:44.talk about talks, building trust, becoming good friends. We have seen
:34:45. > :34:50.weeks of tension between both parties but today is about coming
:34:51. > :34:54.together to make this work. The context is interesting, David
:34:55. > :34:57.Davis thought he would be walking into negotiations with Theresa May
:34:58. > :35:02.behind him and a huge majority. He doesn't have that. People in
:35:03. > :35:08.Brussels are worried what will happen to our Prime Minister. As you
:35:09. > :35:11.said, we are seeing Germany softening the tone, saying, let us
:35:12. > :35:16.give them a bit more than what we would have done, otherwise Theresa
:35:17. > :35:21.May will come under serious pressure from both sides and if she leaves
:35:22. > :35:25.the whole talks could crumble. Her leadership is under pressure for
:35:26. > :35:29.a variety of reasons, how badly does Theresa May need success in these
:35:30. > :35:34.talks? I don't think early success as a
:35:35. > :35:41.concept is available. Both sides will be keen to emerge from today
:35:42. > :35:44.and signal there is an accommodating culture.
:35:45. > :35:49.The reality is, Theresa May went into this process thinking it would
:35:50. > :35:54.be a continuity narrative from before the election. There is now
:35:55. > :35:56.known strategic concept from the UK side.
:35:57. > :36:01.She asked for a bigger mandate and didn't get one.
:36:02. > :36:06.Specific questions about membership of the single market, customs union,
:36:07. > :36:11.jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, there is no majority in
:36:12. > :36:16.parliament, so it is not clear Theresa May has the support of
:36:17. > :36:22.cabinet. Ultimately, we talk about success in this country as a
:36:23. > :36:26.presentational idea, the idea that the Prime Minister's authority will
:36:27. > :36:30.be upheld. Is there authority in the UK to do a deal that will stand up?
:36:31. > :36:37.It seems clear from the outside there isn't.
:36:38. > :36:41.Let us turn our attention to Grenfell Tower, shocking pictures of
:36:42. > :36:46.the weekend of inside the building. The police have issued a statement
:36:47. > :36:52.today saying 79 people are feared dead, presumed dead. How much will
:36:53. > :36:56.this tragedy come to define Theresa May's Government?
:36:57. > :37:01.We saw from Wednesday morning she was under serious pressure. Images
:37:02. > :37:05.of Jeremy Corbyn, the Queen and Prince William going there before
:37:06. > :37:09.the Prime Minister did. She didn't meet with the victims. At
:37:10. > :37:14.the weekend she said the initial response was not good enough. Why
:37:15. > :37:19.did it take until Saturday for her to sit down with victims to come to
:37:20. > :37:22.that conclusion. If it wasn't good enough in the beginning, she would
:37:23. > :37:27.have known that. It doesn't look good. People are saying she lacks
:37:28. > :37:34.humanity. In terms of human response, people
:37:35. > :37:39.have said it was found wanting. What do you think is going to be the
:37:40. > :37:42.impact in terms of changes to regulation and the reviews, and
:37:43. > :37:46.looking at the buildings that are still the high-rise tower blocks
:37:47. > :37:52.that could still be covered in cladding that may be combustible?
:37:53. > :37:57.There aren't two political challengers, the performance element
:37:58. > :38:03.of Theresa May showing empathy, a one track issue.
:38:04. > :38:08.And the broader question, the apparatus of conservative ideology
:38:09. > :38:12.seems to be unravelling. The regulation, health and safety
:38:13. > :38:18.culture, that this was an obstruction to the economy. The idea
:38:19. > :38:24.of stripping away regulations seems to have been exposed as introducing
:38:25. > :38:29.risk to society. People will say, hang on, what was the system that
:38:30. > :38:33.was keeping people safe in their homes? We will now be looking at
:38:34. > :38:38.buildings, school buildings, high-rises where people are living,
:38:39. > :38:43.questioning whether our approach to Government and the state has been
:38:44. > :38:46.negligent. Theresa May has a bigger problem than whether she can
:38:47. > :38:49.demonstrate warmth with individuals on the ground.
:38:50. > :38:52.The police have confirmed that 79 people are missing, presumed dead,
:38:53. > :38:56.Commander Stuart Cundy also said that all criminal offences are now
:38:57. > :39:00.being considered, as detectives, fire-safety experts and the Health
:39:01. > :39:02.and Safety Executive recover evidence into how last week's fire
:39:03. > :39:06.started and, crucially, why it spread so quickly.
:39:07. > :39:13.a minute's silence was held in memory of the victims.
:39:14. > :40:13.For the victims of the tragic fire at Grenfell Tower.
:40:14. > :40:17.Theresa May has faced criticism for her response to the fire, or lack of
:40:18. > :40:27.it. Is that criticism fair? I am an
:40:28. > :40:32.immigrant to this country. Many of those living in Grenfell Tower will
:40:33. > :40:39.have been from from North African, Syrian immigrant community, who came
:40:40. > :40:41.to the UK because of all its great values.
:40:42. > :40:47.The Prime Minister was right to say the reaction wasn't good enough.
:40:48. > :40:51.People getting ?10 on the ground, who have lost everything.
:40:52. > :41:00.The speed at which the whole machine of Government, local or central,
:41:01. > :41:06.wasn't up to speed. But, turning our Prime Minister into
:41:07. > :41:12.a human punchbag just because she doesn't cry in front of people. You
:41:13. > :41:24.heard from the Reverend who went to see the victims, she welled up... It
:41:25. > :41:29.is wrong to politicise this. Let us get the evidence, there is a
:41:30. > :41:35.criminal investigation. Government says that particular cladding was
:41:36. > :41:38.illegal in the UK for buildings as tall as Grenfell Tower...
:41:39. > :41:44.We will come onto that. You said you think it is unsightly
:41:45. > :41:48.for her to be used as a punchbag. Even she admitted it was a
:41:49. > :41:54.lamentable response, ?10 offered to people who had lost everything.
:41:55. > :41:58.The tower looks like a war zone, devastating. The response as she
:41:59. > :42:03.admitted was too slow in terms of an emergency fund and offering for
:42:04. > :42:07.people to be rehoused. Jeremy Corbyn, even the Queen
:42:08. > :42:12.managed to go down personally to empathise, just to be seen to give
:42:13. > :42:19.some sort of solidarity with the people who were affected.
:42:20. > :42:25.Why couldn't Theresa May do that? Well, she went to the site. She
:42:26. > :42:34.talked to the amazing fire men and women who were the first responders.
:42:35. > :42:42.She has put into place a response now, ?5,500 for each and every
:42:43. > :42:47.family, immediately available, housing within three weeks. It
:42:48. > :42:51.wasn't good enough at the beginning. Of course it wasn't! I am not going
:42:52. > :42:55.to insult your intelligence to say that, of course it wasn't. Questions
:42:56. > :43:01.have to be asked, why isn't that we did not respond in the same way as
:43:02. > :43:06.to flooding disasters in our country for these poor souls? Also, the
:43:07. > :43:09.image that could well stick to the Conservative Party for some time is
:43:10. > :43:12.the majority did back drop people, many of them immigrants, dying in
:43:13. > :43:25.one of the richest boroughs of the country. We need to understand what
:43:26. > :43:29.happened, why a refurbishment can take place in such a building that
:43:30. > :43:34.can make it such a fire hazard when millions of pounds were spelt on the
:43:35. > :43:40.building, but not properly. Do you accept that there has been some sort
:43:41. > :43:46.of politicisation? It is a political issue too, but has Labour exploited
:43:47. > :43:50.this. This is symptomatic of a broken system, poor people died in
:43:51. > :43:57.that horrendous incident because of a political system which has
:43:58. > :44:02.systematically failed to invest in our public services. I was calling,
:44:03. > :44:09.in 2011, for sprinkler systems to be installed in high-rise blocks. But
:44:10. > :44:15.your own government... Let him finish and we will come back to you.
:44:16. > :44:18.We have a broken system where, you know, the private sector and the
:44:19. > :44:22.Conservative Party see public services as a cash cow. How can we
:44:23. > :44:26.make money out of these public services? I don't think anyone is
:44:27. > :44:32.making money in that sense. The point is that we see privatisation,
:44:33. > :44:37.not run by local authorities, why wasn't it invested in? Because it
:44:38. > :44:50.has been external eyes to an arm's length organisation, and they are
:44:51. > :44:54.penny-pinching. -- externalised. It is all down to this obsession with
:44:55. > :45:01.neoliberalism which was brought in by Margaret Thatcher. Nadhim Zahawi,
:45:02. > :45:06.to use your words, is this a broken society... A broken system. Based on
:45:07. > :45:10.an ideology associated to the Conservatives? 2015, the
:45:11. > :45:12.Conservative government launched a cutting red tape initiative, which
:45:13. > :45:16.boasted cutting fire regulation is. David Cameron said the Conservative
:45:17. > :45:20.government would kill the health and safety culture for good. As your
:45:21. > :45:28.party's obsession with the need to cut red tape come what may put lives
:45:29. > :45:33.in let's get one facts straight, so that we can have a proper discussion
:45:34. > :45:36.about this issue. The people running this building was the local tenant
:45:37. > :45:40.management association made up of residents and councillors. These are
:45:41. > :45:47.local people who should have done their job properly. That is
:45:48. > :45:52.incredibly unfair! The local authority is also responsible. But
:45:53. > :46:01.the point here is what happened... There were blogs about the tenant
:46:02. > :46:04.manage organisation not doing its job properly... By question was
:46:05. > :46:13.about the Conservative obsession about cutting red tape? There is a
:46:14. > :46:17.difference between red tape that is stopping businesses doing their work
:46:18. > :46:27.and a difference between us wanting to cut fire safety. You have closed
:46:28. > :46:34.fire stations, let's be honest about this. York government did not follow
:46:35. > :46:38.through on sprinklers... We didn't close fire stations, like you have
:46:39. > :46:47.been doing. We can have a two and fro about this... Let's talk
:46:48. > :46:52.about... It is not true about us cutting fire safety. What about
:46:53. > :46:57.these bring the you talked about it, the Labour government not act
:46:58. > :47:08.quickly enough to review building regulations. -- what about these
:47:09. > :47:12.sprinkler systems? This is talking about the Lakanal House inquiry, the
:47:13. > :47:18.Government ignore the regulations. There was an earlier report that
:47:19. > :47:21.said similar things, both governments, Labour and
:47:22. > :47:24.Conservative, have failed. Why weren't the systems fitted
:47:25. > :47:28.retrospectively? The Government said all councils were advised to do so
:47:29. > :47:33.after a bad fire in Camberwell in 2013. These are the sort of
:47:34. > :47:37.questions the inquiry must look into. Why is the recommendation that
:47:38. > :47:41.any building over a particular height, sprinklers would make a
:47:42. > :47:45.difference, why didn't the Labour government not react to it? We will
:47:46. > :47:50.find that out very quickly. Is it to do with the culture of cost-cutting?
:47:51. > :47:56.I do not think that is where it comes from. If you look at the early
:47:57. > :48:00.evidence that has come out, it is marginal, the numbers, between what
:48:01. > :48:03.the cladding... If people who were rich were living in that flat, they
:48:04. > :48:08.would have had the sprinkler system, and they would not have died. This
:48:09. > :48:14.is a class issue, it seems to me, where poor people are victimised and
:48:15. > :48:18.cast aside. You say that Labour are not exploiting this, not trying to
:48:19. > :48:24.turn this into a class war, but your Shadow Business Secretary said
:48:25. > :48:35.Bernard neoliberalism, not poor people. So you agree with him? I do.
:48:36. > :48:38.Do think that is appropriate? Neoliberalism is the problem, it has
:48:39. > :48:44.got far worse in the last seven years, this culture that we have
:48:45. > :48:54.spoken about, cutting red tape. I used to work in the building trade
:48:55. > :48:57.is, I nearly died and a building site, but the Conservative Party
:48:58. > :49:00.wants to get rid of health and safety because it betters business.
:49:01. > :49:09.They will external eyes wherever they can, privatise... This idea of
:49:10. > :49:14.arm's-length organisations, all of these powers given to them, to this
:49:15. > :49:18.management company, does it have to stop now. I was a councillor in
:49:19. > :49:24.Wandsworth for three terms, and I think it is a good idea to have
:49:25. > :49:31.tenants managing their own businesses, but you have got to
:49:32. > :49:36.manage it properly. The blogs was saying that the TMO were not
:49:37. > :49:47.actually... You have to take responsibility. Some of these
:49:48. > :49:49.organisations were set up by Labour, and the current Labour MP actually
:49:50. > :49:55.sat on the board of the management company. These arm's-length
:49:56. > :50:05.organisations, lots of organisations were set up as a way of accessing
:50:06. > :50:10.additional financing, and we need to get back to simple local authority
:50:11. > :50:15.houses... If this was run by the Council, the chances of this... We
:50:16. > :50:21.will never know. When they were run by local authorities, we saw decent
:50:22. > :50:28.investment going into our housing, and we didn't have the crisis that
:50:29. > :50:31.we now have across the country under the Conservatives, we have seen a
:50:32. > :50:37.culture where they look at it and say, how can we make money out of
:50:38. > :50:42.it? A vice I must let Nadhim Zahawi answer that. That is absolutely not
:50:43. > :50:47.true, this is the ugly part of this tragedy, people going out and
:50:48. > :50:58.spinning lies to pursue their political... It is not a spin! To
:50:59. > :51:06.let him finish. Chris, your manifesto was to nationalise
:51:07. > :51:12.everything. Your leader's hero is Hugo Chavez, everything there has
:51:13. > :51:18.crashed, and if you are sick in Venezuela, you die, because there is
:51:19. > :51:21.no medicine. By spending and spending and nationalising
:51:22. > :51:27.everything... Nobody is saying nationalise everything. Gentleman!
:51:28. > :51:29.Gentlemen, we have to end it. It should be about public service, not
:51:30. > :51:31.private profit. Now, could identity cards help keep
:51:32. > :51:33.us safe from terrorist incidents, An ID card scheme was introduced
:51:34. > :51:37.by the last Labour government but then dropped by the incoming
:51:38. > :51:40.coalition government in 2010. But former Labour Home Secretary
:51:41. > :51:42.Charles Clarke ID cards have always
:51:43. > :52:00.been controversial. But I think they're
:52:01. > :52:08.just plain common sense. Good morning,
:52:09. > :52:10.my name's Charles Clarke, I've come to apply
:52:11. > :52:12.for a voluntary ID card, please. Here at CitizenCard, they've been
:52:13. > :52:19.issuing voluntary ID cards - often for young people
:52:20. > :52:22.to act as proof of age - To date, 2.2 million people have
:52:23. > :52:29.applied for one of their cards. We already have a large number
:52:30. > :52:34.of identity cards They help us travel, to work,
:52:35. > :52:40.to get into our workplaces, to be able to cross borders,
:52:41. > :52:43.to be able to access our finance details so that only we can get
:52:44. > :52:46.to our bank accounts. We've got a whole range of different
:52:47. > :52:55.types of identity cards already. And they would help
:52:56. > :52:57.with immigration, so we can be confident that everyone in this
:52:58. > :53:00.country is entitled to be here, everyone using our NHS
:53:01. > :53:02.is entitled to use it, everyone getting a social security
:53:03. > :53:05.payment is entitled to receive it, and that everyone voting
:53:06. > :53:06.in our elections The police and security services
:53:07. > :53:14.fighting organised criminals, like people traffickers and drug
:53:15. > :53:17.dealers, and terrorist networks like those who committed
:53:18. > :53:20.the appalling attacks on our cities in recent weeks, need to be
:53:21. > :53:23.able to prevent them using false or stolen identities
:53:24. > :53:31.in preparing their crimes. Our identity is
:53:32. > :53:33.our most precious possession. We should do everything that we can
:53:34. > :53:36.to protect it. A system of national
:53:37. > :53:37.identity registration based on our own individual
:53:38. > :53:42.physical characteristics, and using the most
:53:43. > :53:44.up-to-date technology, Your card, sir.
:53:45. > :53:49.Thank you very much indeed. It looks great, even the photograph.
:53:50. > :54:02.Thanks very much. Theresa May was wrong to abolish
:54:03. > :54:06.the identity card scheme in 2010. It was her first act
:54:07. > :54:09.as Home Secretary. We need to re-establish
:54:10. > :54:25.the national identity scheme And Charles Clarke is in the studio,
:54:26. > :54:30.welcome back to the Daily Politics. When ID cards were introduced,
:54:31. > :54:33.hugely controversial, they were scrapped by the coalition
:54:34. > :54:38.government, what makes you think they are less controversial now? I
:54:39. > :54:39.am sure they are still very controversial, and they are
:54:40. > :54:42.controversial because although people can see many benefits, people
:54:43. > :54:47.are worried about civil liberties side of it, and that comes from the
:54:48. > :54:50.right and the left, concerned that somehow our civil liberties are put
:54:51. > :54:57.up thread. I don't think that is the case. I think ensuring we can
:54:58. > :55:01.protect our identity against identity fraud, against all kinds of
:55:02. > :55:04.efforts to take away our identity, and the police and security
:55:05. > :55:08.services, I think, gain from having the capacity to stop the identity
:55:09. > :55:14.theft which gangs of various kinds used to prosecute their task. How
:55:15. > :55:18.much support do you think they have? I haven't got that any recent
:55:19. > :55:23.polling, but it was always quite large, and then when we legislated
:55:24. > :55:26.for it, the majority of people, but it at the opposition within some
:55:27. > :55:33.parts of the Labour Party, and some parts of the Conservative Party.
:55:34. > :55:36.Were you deeply opposed? I was, I think there are civil liberties
:55:37. > :55:40.issues and concerns, which Charles has identified, but I don't think it
:55:41. > :55:44.will work, frankly. I don't think the cards would prevent the kind of
:55:45. > :55:51.horrendous incidents that we have seen. Why not? Because the
:55:52. > :55:55.terrorists were home-grown, the fact that they have an identity card is
:55:56. > :56:00.not going to prevent them hiring a van and mowing into people on
:56:01. > :56:03.Westminster Bridge. Chris is right, they are not a silver bullet. Some
:56:04. > :56:07.people claim that if you brought them in, you could stop all terror
:56:08. > :56:11.attacks of the kind we have seen. I have never thought that is true, but
:56:12. > :56:17.what I do think is that it makes it more difficult for criminal
:56:18. > :56:20.organisations, not just terrorists, but also drug dealers and people
:56:21. > :56:25.traffickers, to be able to travel around the world, which is what they
:56:26. > :56:28.do, with impunity, so I don't argue, just to be clear, that if you bring
:56:29. > :56:34.this income you can solve all these problems. I do think it is an
:56:35. > :56:38.additional weapon. What was your view at the time? Was Theresa May
:56:39. > :56:45.Rob it was before my time. I have a couple of questions for Charles, one
:56:46. > :56:50.is, they have got ID cards in France, and it hasn't helped deal
:56:51. > :56:53.with the terrorism problems in that country. We have got biometric
:56:54. > :57:00.passports now, technology getting better and better, so why try to
:57:01. > :57:04.replicate a double ID card? I think the cost of the time was about ?1
:57:05. > :57:08.billion that you had earmarked for this project, wouldn't we be better
:57:09. > :57:14.off spending ?1 billion in a better way? Well, not everybody has
:57:15. > :57:18.passports. There are elements of using the passport scheme to issue
:57:19. > :57:25.the ID cards. The cost wasn't very substantial in the end, it cost me
:57:26. > :57:30.?25 for that card. The total cost of 1 billion was before you took out
:57:31. > :57:34.the income you got from it. But the main reason for the ID cards scheme
:57:35. > :57:37.was to enable you to have, instead of all the types of ID cards that
:57:38. > :57:42.you now have in your wallet, and in your pocket at this very minute, a
:57:43. > :57:46.simpler system to be able to understand how we can protect the
:57:47. > :57:51.data that is so important to all of us.
:57:52. > :58:00.I can't see how another layer would actually...
:58:01. > :58:04.It becomes a replacement rather than another layer.
:58:05. > :58:08.Can I ask for your response whether you feel the Government response
:58:09. > :58:14.this morning has been serious and quick enough to what has happened in
:58:15. > :58:17.Finsbury Park Mosque mark they have given public announcements which are
:58:18. > :58:24.clear, I am not convinced the commission on its gyms and will make
:58:25. > :58:28.any difference on the process. -- commission on extremism.
:58:29. > :58:33.The more serious issue is whether the Government had already weakened
:58:34. > :58:37.our capacity to combat the terrorists we saw in Manchester and
:58:38. > :58:44.London bridge. That is a more serious aspect.
:58:45. > :58:53.Theresa May as Home Secretary didn't only stop the ID system, she got rid
:58:54. > :58:55.of the control order regime... I am going to have to stop you
:58:56. > :58:57.there. Thank you. That's all for today,
:58:58. > :59:12.thanks to our guests. What makes you two different
:59:13. > :59:16.from each other?