:00:37. > :00:40.Afternoon, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:41. > :00:46.Theresa May has told MPs that tests on tower blocks have found that more
:00:47. > :00:48.buildings are covered with combustible cladding,
:00:49. > :00:51.thought to be a factor in the blaze at Grenfell Tower in London.
:00:52. > :00:57.The Queen's Speech was dominated by new laws to open the way
:00:58. > :01:00.for Brexit, but will they survive months or even years
:01:01. > :01:04.of parliamentary warfare in the Commons and the Lords?
:01:05. > :01:08.The Liberal Democrats have a few more MPs but they are still
:01:09. > :01:11.Is Vince Cable the man to help them win?
:01:12. > :01:19.And as thousands get ready to head to Glastonbury this weekend, they'll
:01:20. > :01:22.need to watch out for sunburn, rain and the risk of bumping
:01:23. > :01:33.We'll bring you our political guide to festival season.
:01:34. > :01:37.All that in the next hour and with us for the whole
:01:38. > :01:41.of the programme today, two peers who've put their ermine
:01:42. > :01:50.back into the cupboard until the next Queen's Speech,
:01:51. > :01:53.which could be in a couple of weeks, at the rate we're going!
:01:54. > :01:55.It's Labour's leader in the Lords Angela Smith
:01:56. > :01:57.and the former Conservative cabinet minister Michael Forsyth.
:01:58. > :02:01.First let's turn to last week's tragedy at Grenfell Tower in London.
:02:02. > :02:04.This morning the chief executive of the local authority,
:02:05. > :02:06.Kensington and Chelsea Council has resigned, he said at the insistence
:02:07. > :02:08.of the Local Government Secretary Sajid Javid.
:02:09. > :02:11.Also this morning, the Prime Minister Theresa May has
:02:12. > :02:14.been telling MPs what the government knows about the causes of the fire,
:02:15. > :02:17.and said tests on other high-rise flats have discovered some
:02:18. > :02:20.are covered in "combustible" cladding.
:02:21. > :02:22.The government has arranged to test cladding in all
:02:23. > :02:28.Mr Speaker, shortly before I came to the chamber,
:02:29. > :02:31.I was informed that a number of these tests have come
:02:32. > :02:36.The relevant local authorities and local Fire Services have been
:02:37. > :02:40.informed and as I speak, they are taking all possible steps
:02:41. > :02:43.to ensure buildings are safe and to inform affected residents.
:02:44. > :02:48.Immediately after this statement, the Department for Communities
:02:49. > :02:50.and Local Government will contact any MPs whose constituents
:02:51. > :03:00.So a significant announcement from the Prime Minister,
:03:01. > :03:05.and No 10 has since confirmed that three samples of cladding from tower
:03:06. > :03:08.blocks in England alone have been found to be combustible.
:03:09. > :03:10.We're expecting to hear more from the Local Government Secretary
:03:11. > :03:17.later today, but now let's go to our correspondent Jim Reed.
:03:18. > :03:24.What have we learned? As you say, we are expecting a kind of common
:03:25. > :03:27.statement by Sajid Javid. -- some kind of Commons statement. He might
:03:28. > :03:31.give us an idea about the number of flats in apartment in bold. In the
:03:32. > :03:34.last quarter of an hour, the Guardian newspaper has reported it
:03:35. > :03:37.could be up to 600 blocks across the country which could have this
:03:38. > :03:41.cladding attached which is linked to the blaze at Grenfell Tower.
:03:42. > :03:45.Yesterday evening, we heard from people, from residents of an estate
:03:46. > :03:52.in North London, Tolson, that they were concerned about the cladding on
:03:53. > :03:54.their block and we went down there, they were receiving e-mails from the
:03:55. > :03:57.local housing association saying they thought it almost certainly was
:03:58. > :04:00.the same kind of cladding as was an Grenfell Tower and the interesting
:04:01. > :04:03.thing from where we went, and we have pictures to show you, I think,
:04:04. > :04:08.is that this was a new block under new estate, built two or three years
:04:09. > :04:11.ago, and the central block is 22 stories high. There are real
:04:12. > :04:14.questions, if new build blocks are using this material which over the
:04:15. > :04:19.weekend, the government said was banned, there are real questions
:04:20. > :04:22.about the regulations involved. If professional multinational companies
:04:23. > :04:26.have been using this apparently with building regulation guidance when
:04:27. > :04:29.they should not have been. Do we have any indication what the
:04:30. > :04:33.government intends to do about this, if we now know... I must say, it
:04:34. > :04:37.does not really come as a surprise, why would Grenfell Tower be a one
:04:38. > :04:41.off? We now know there are multiple tower blocks across England and the
:04:42. > :04:44.government is only talking about England at the moment, Wales,
:04:45. > :04:48.Scotland and Northern Ireland are separate. Now we know this, do we
:04:49. > :04:53.have any idea what the government intends to do about it? It was
:04:54. > :04:56.unclear from Theresa May's statement today, whether the government still
:04:57. > :05:00.think this material breached building regulations. That could be
:05:01. > :05:03.really important when we go forward into a potential public enquiry and
:05:04. > :05:07.looking at criminality. Over the weekend, the Chancellor said they
:05:08. > :05:10.thought this stuff was banned and over the weekend, people in the
:05:11. > :05:13.firing history have been split down the middle on this, half of them
:05:14. > :05:16.saying it was clearly bad and they should not have been using it and
:05:17. > :05:19.the other half saying it is more nuanced. There are real questions
:05:20. > :05:22.now and still questions for Theresa May about the material and the
:05:23. > :05:25.building regulations that might have allowed it to be used because we
:05:26. > :05:33.know for sure it was banned above a certain height in other countries,
:05:34. > :05:36.in the US and certainly in Germany. So is it banned here or not? That is
:05:37. > :05:39.one question Theresa May did not answer in the House of Commons
:05:40. > :05:42.today. People will wonder at such a simple matter is this, in a sense,
:05:43. > :05:46.that it is a matter that regulations have not covered, that politicians
:05:47. > :05:51.at the local and national level have not covered. You don't need to be an
:05:52. > :05:54.expert to know that you don't surround the building with
:05:55. > :05:57.combustible material. Clearly but one thing we need to be careful
:05:58. > :06:00.here, because people watching this will be rightly concerned about what
:06:01. > :06:04.is on the outside of their building, the one we went to in Tottenham last
:06:05. > :06:08.night is a very different building from Grenfell Tower, very modern, so
:06:09. > :06:13.it has all the safety and security features like sprinklers, safe
:06:14. > :06:16.rooms, Fireman's lift, that kind of thing, and people there won't things
:06:17. > :06:20.that could make everything OK so if it should not be on the outside, it
:06:21. > :06:23.should not be there but there's a big difference between some of the
:06:24. > :06:26.new build blocks with their built in safety features and somewhere like
:06:27. > :06:31.Grenfell Tower, where the cladding has been attached to an older style
:06:32. > :06:35.building. We will leave it there. Clearly a long way to go but thank
:06:36. > :06:35.you for bringing us up to date. We are waiting for further
:06:36. > :06:42.announcements. Michael Forsyth, Theresa May said
:06:43. > :06:46.the response to the appalling fire at Grenfell Tower was a failure of
:06:47. > :06:49.the state, both at local and national level. Do you agree?
:06:50. > :06:55.I do and I'm surprised the chief Executive has taken so long to
:06:56. > :07:01.resign because the council clearly failed. Whether or not they failed
:07:02. > :07:05.in terms of building regulations, anyone who saw that I could see the
:07:06. > :07:10.effect of the cladding and the way the fire drifted up the building at
:07:11. > :07:15.a very fast pace. The important thing now I think is to focus on
:07:16. > :07:18.what buildings are affected, and to provide the means and resources to
:07:19. > :07:21.local authorities to put it right because this news will have families
:07:22. > :07:26.all over the country being worried about their safety and the first
:07:27. > :07:30.duty of a government is to protect the safety of its people. If it was
:07:31. > :07:35.a failure at the local level, the chief executive of the local council
:07:36. > :07:39.has now resigned. That may not be enough for many people but it is a
:07:40. > :07:42.start. But the Prime Minister said it was also a failure at the
:07:43. > :07:47.national level so who should resign at the national level? You know,
:07:48. > :07:50.when an aeroplane crashes, we don't actually seek to a tribute blame.
:07:51. > :07:54.What we seek to do is try to find out what happened and if you get in
:07:55. > :07:59.the blame game, it makes it much more difficult. Your government has
:08:00. > :08:03.just forced the head of Kensington Council to resign. I'm not sure if
:08:04. > :08:08.it was the government or not. He said it was Sajid Javid who said he
:08:09. > :08:11.had to resign. I don't think he should need Sajid Javid to tell him
:08:12. > :08:16.he had to resign because the way they handled the affairs after the
:08:17. > :08:19.fire was thoroughly inadequate. I understand that but that is the
:08:20. > :08:23.local level but if it is also acknowledged there was a failure at
:08:24. > :08:27.the national level, you should be held accountable there? I don't know
:08:28. > :08:31.and that is why we need a public inquiry, like we did after Piper
:08:32. > :08:34.Alpha, which is a comparable disaster, where people look at what
:08:35. > :08:37.went wrong and where we have recommendations which can be
:08:38. > :08:42.implemented throughout the country. But in the short term, we have to
:08:43. > :08:45.reassure people about their safety and this news is going to add to the
:08:46. > :08:50.anxiety which people in blocks across the country will feel. Is
:08:51. > :08:53.this not a failure of the whole political class? At the national and
:08:54. > :09:01.local level, that we have allowed buildings like this, we now learn a
:09:02. > :09:04.good number, to have been clouded in combustible material? Yeah, I think
:09:05. > :09:09.it's outrageous and anyone hearing that, they could be 600 buildings
:09:10. > :09:13.across the country? As I heard that figure, I took a sharp intake of
:09:14. > :09:17.breath, I was shocked by it and not only do you have to reassure people
:09:18. > :09:20.that they are safe, you can only do it if you undertake the work
:09:21. > :09:23.necessary and do the work to make them safe but your question about
:09:24. > :09:27.accountability I think is the key one in this. Michael is right, you
:09:28. > :09:31.have to find out what went wrong, it is not about blame but at the end of
:09:32. > :09:33.the day, there is an issue about responsibility and accountability
:09:34. > :09:37.and the chief executive resigned. Who was in charge of the building?
:09:38. > :09:42.The council outsourced it to a private company, who were not taking
:09:43. > :09:46.on board the concerns of residents. That was the policy of the Tony
:09:47. > :09:49.Blair Labour government. Actually, it predated it and Michael was one
:09:50. > :09:53.of the pioneers of this but that does not avoid accountability.
:09:54. > :10:01.Someone has to take responsibility. Know, the 1999 Environment Report by
:10:02. > :10:04.select committee says we do not believe it should take a serious
:10:05. > :10:08.fire in which many are killed before all reasonable steps are taken
:10:09. > :10:12.towards minimising the risks. That was 1999. We then had what, 11 years
:10:13. > :10:16.of Labour government and then another seven years of Conservative
:10:17. > :10:21.government but actually, it did take a serious fire before we started to
:10:22. > :10:25.find out what is going on. Andrew, things have changed a number of
:10:26. > :10:30.times since then. I think the key thing here is and I would be
:10:31. > :10:33.interested to know was worthy building with Galicians adhered to
:10:34. > :10:36.and wanting the Prime Minister could not answer today and I could not
:10:37. > :10:40.understand why, was this building, and anyone that was referred to, was
:10:41. > :10:43.it built within the regulations or is it outside the regulations and
:10:44. > :10:47.someone did not check properly? That is the key answer, is this legal or
:10:48. > :10:52.illegal and if the Prime Minister can't answer that question, I don't
:10:53. > :10:59.know who can. The public inquiry... People will be positive that it
:11:00. > :11:01.could be legal to surround the building... Absolutely. If Grenfell
:11:02. > :11:04.Tower had been left in its rather ugly state, it was very much a 1970s
:11:05. > :11:08.concrete tower block, it would have looked ugly but it would not have
:11:09. > :11:11.gone up in flames the way did, it was surrounding it with this stuff
:11:12. > :11:13.which turned it into a fire that spread so quickly. If other
:11:14. > :11:18.buildings are surrounded like this, what should be done? They should be,
:11:19. > :11:21.the cladding may very well need to be replaced and the local
:11:22. > :11:24.authorities may need to have help from central government to do that.
:11:25. > :11:30.I think we should focus on what needs to be done. That is the first
:11:31. > :11:33.point. Yes, and as to who was responsible or the regulations, that
:11:34. > :11:36.is a matter for the public inquiry but the immediate thing should be to
:11:37. > :11:41.put right the risks that are affected by those people. But also,
:11:42. > :11:48.if the law is inadequate, it needs to be changed pronto, now. We don't
:11:49. > :11:51.know that yet. If people are living in buildings that run the risk of
:11:52. > :11:54.what happened at Grenfell Tower, we don't know for sure because we are
:11:55. > :11:56.still trying to get all the details but if it seems that more of this
:11:57. > :12:02.combustible material has been used in tower blocks up and down the
:12:03. > :12:06.land, what should be done? It has got to be removed, there is no
:12:07. > :12:10.alternative. Should people be moved out of the buildings until it is
:12:11. > :12:14.removed? That may well be the option but we have to find out if it is
:12:15. > :12:18.that material or not first. My understanding is there are panels
:12:19. > :12:21.that look similar, some combustible and some aren't and the checking
:12:22. > :12:25.process has to come first. Surely this would be logged in every town
:12:26. > :12:29.Hall, surely planning permission, building regulations, the files must
:12:30. > :12:33.exist in the town hall? You shouldn't have to go to the towers
:12:34. > :12:39.to see them. All of this must be on record. I'm sure every local
:12:40. > :12:42.authority will be doing that now and what we have to avoid is it becoming
:12:43. > :12:46.a sort of party political issue. Everyone wants to see this put right
:12:47. > :12:50.and the people who've been affected by this terrible fire... They cannot
:12:51. > :12:57.wait on the inquiry, they need to move now, lives are at risk. Indeed.
:12:58. > :12:59.As if the police did not have enough on their hands, there was this
:13:00. > :13:08.attempted day of rage Westminster yesterday. Seemingly encouraged by
:13:09. > :13:12.the Shadow Chancellor. He says the government "Has forfeited the right
:13:13. > :13:16.to govern". Do you agree? On a number of things, I agree with that
:13:17. > :13:20.but not connected with this. I think it is an inadequate government and a
:13:21. > :13:24.weakened government. Has it forfeited the right to govern? As
:13:25. > :13:28.time goes on, the House of Commons will make that decision. I know why
:13:29. > :13:32.people are angry. John McDonnell has made the decision already, says it
:13:33. > :13:40.has forfeited the right to govern, do you agree? I think this
:13:41. > :13:43.government is an incompetent government and I want to see it
:13:44. > :13:45.replaced as soon as possible. As it forfeited the right to govern, one
:13:46. > :13:48.more time? Saying no implies that somehow I think they've got a right
:13:49. > :13:52.to government, I think it is inadequate and incompetent and that
:13:53. > :13:56.is as much as I could say. You would not repeat what the Shadow
:13:57. > :14:00.Chancellor say? He can speak for himself, he does not lead me to do
:14:01. > :14:03.it for him. Indeed, we do and they will be even more angry when they
:14:04. > :14:09.find out that there are many more buildings in a similar situation to
:14:10. > :14:15.the one in Notting Hill. But do you think these days of rage really
:14:16. > :14:20.help, given that even some of the residents, some of the victims asked
:14:21. > :14:27.the demonstrators not to proceed? Is this a rather unseemly underbelly of
:14:28. > :14:29.Corbyn is, the demonstrations? It's not about that, we had
:14:30. > :14:32.demonstrations and marches forever but they don't change much at the
:14:33. > :14:37.end of the day. John McDonnell thinks they do. Makabu the challenge
:14:38. > :14:41.for politicians of all parties and political classes to show you can
:14:42. > :14:46.effect change by political decisions and that is what the politicians
:14:47. > :14:49.have to prove and step up to the plate. On Grenfell Tower Brexit and
:14:50. > :14:52.all these issues, otherwise people take the law into their own hands
:14:53. > :14:57.and that is the last thing we want to see. Do we know yet, are we sure
:14:58. > :15:03.that Theresa May has a grip of this? I think she has. What is the sign?
:15:04. > :15:10.SHE announced in inquiry, it was in the Queen's speech, she has
:15:11. > :15:13.intervened and taken immediate action and I don't think it helps
:15:14. > :15:15.for people to trash the Prime Minister when she needs to focus on
:15:16. > :15:18.getting things put right. At the time of national emergency, it is
:15:19. > :15:21.not trashing the prime ministers to ask if she's got a grip, that is the
:15:22. > :15:26.minimum we expect of a Prime Minister in these circumstances. --
:15:27. > :15:31.if the Prime Minister's to ask if she has got a grip. What is the
:15:32. > :15:35.evidence? She has set up the enquiry, said that she will bring
:15:36. > :15:41.forward legislation as an advocate for people who are affected by
:15:42. > :15:45.tragedies of this kind. She has indicated... But it is the case,
:15:46. > :15:50.Michael, if you are a resident or a local person here, your abiding
:15:51. > :15:54.thought on this is everyone has been too slow to respond. For the Prime
:15:55. > :15:57.Minister to show she has got a grip, she has to write much more quickly
:15:58. > :16:01.because of the stories from residents of the aftermath of the
:16:02. > :16:05.are disgraceful. These are people who have lost their lives, lost
:16:06. > :16:09.friends and family. But we have a system of local government in this
:16:10. > :16:13.country. And it failed them. There has to be a significantly better
:16:14. > :16:15.response in the future. Let's leave that because there is more
:16:16. > :16:20.information to come and we will return to it.
:16:21. > :16:24.The question for today is about Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson,
:16:25. > :16:26.still regularly tipped as a future Tory leader.
:16:27. > :16:28.His reputation hasn't exactly been enhanced by a BBC radio
:16:29. > :16:30.interview he gave yesterday, when he struggled to answer
:16:31. > :16:34.It led the interviewer to compare their conversation
:16:35. > :16:37.to a well-known comic double act - but which one was it?
:16:38. > :16:49.At the end of the show, our very own comic double act,
:16:50. > :16:57.Angela and Michael, will give us the correct answer.
:16:58. > :16:59.The Prime Minister has just arrived in Brussels
:17:00. > :17:08.thoughts on the issue of rights for EU migrants in the UK
:17:09. > :17:10.and British citizens living in Europe.
:17:11. > :17:12.To find out more, let's speak to the BBC's new, fresh-faced
:17:13. > :17:23.Welcome, nice to see you. Tell me, what is Mrs May hoping to achieve
:17:24. > :17:29.and what is going to happen today? The summit when it starts in about
:17:30. > :17:34.two macros will be business as usual for the EU, discussing things like
:17:35. > :17:37.internal and external security, and having a working dinner to talk
:17:38. > :17:42.about international affairs and Donald Trump climate change. At the
:17:43. > :17:49.end, Theresa May will say a couple of words to update her fellow EU
:17:50. > :17:53.leaders in what is the impact of the decisive general election in the UK
:17:54. > :17:58.in the Brexit process. She is also expected to say some words about her
:17:59. > :18:02.so-called generous offer about the rates for EU citizens living in the
:18:03. > :18:08.UK after Brexit. Still shrouded in mystery about that. Then Mrs May
:18:09. > :18:12.will be politely asked to leave the room and the remaining leaders will
:18:13. > :18:16.get an update on the first stage of negotiations for the chief
:18:17. > :18:22.negotiator in the EU side Michel Barnier and do their own Brexit
:18:23. > :18:26.business, deciding on the criteria for relocating two EU agencies based
:18:27. > :18:29.in London which have to move after Brexit. I understand they are
:18:30. > :18:35.arguing about where they should go so they are not entirely united. Is
:18:36. > :18:40.she not going to be entirely overshadowed, polite as they may
:18:41. > :18:46.well be, by the presence of the new President of France, President
:18:47. > :18:51.Emmanuel Macron? Yes, that is the arrival everybody's will waiting
:18:52. > :18:55.for, the freshfaced boy wonder Emmanuel Macron, the new President
:18:56. > :18:59.of France. And when you talk to the people around this city, who are
:19:00. > :19:03.usually quite cynical, you mention the name Macron and a smile crosses
:19:04. > :19:06.their lips and they talked openly about him being the new hope for
:19:07. > :19:12.Europe and the proof people can still be rallied to the European
:19:13. > :19:17.project. His big pitch before he came here was a new process by which
:19:18. > :19:22.the EU could ban certain foreign investments and sensitive economic
:19:23. > :19:26.areas in the EU. It looks like that will be downgraded and will remain
:19:27. > :19:31.in the hands of the member states and the EU will not have new powers.
:19:32. > :19:35.Theresa May has already been pushed to the side in the sense that EU
:19:36. > :19:40.officials and leaders do not want Brexit to contaminate the
:19:41. > :19:44.proceedings at the summit today and tomorrow, they want to talk about
:19:45. > :19:47.these big issues like climate change, security and the economy,
:19:48. > :19:52.which is why the Brexit section has been left until after dinner, quite
:19:53. > :19:56.late tonight. I understand from one diplomatic source, the Brexit
:19:57. > :20:02.discussion might last less than half an hour. So you will have a
:20:03. > :20:04.late-night, Adam! It, thank you. Adam Fleming in Brussels.
:20:05. > :20:07.Yesterday, the Queen came to Parliament to set out the 27
:20:08. > :20:10.Bills the government intends to pass in what the Prime Minister
:20:11. > :20:14.hopes will be a two-year session of Parliament.
:20:15. > :20:22.In other words, there will be no cladding next year. -- no Queen's
:20:23. > :20:23.Speech. But all the signs are it's
:20:24. > :20:26.going to be one of the most turbulent parliaments
:20:27. > :20:30.in generations, as the Conservatives try to get their legislation
:20:31. > :20:33.through without a Commons majority. Of course, it's not the first time
:20:34. > :20:36.we've had a minority government. # We are amazed, but not
:20:37. > :20:40.amused by all the things Some might say this was a dark time,
:20:41. > :20:45.with power cuts, the three-day week, industrial unrest and two elections
:20:46. > :20:52.within eight months. The first was in February,
:20:53. > :20:54.and after a close result, a minority Labour government took
:20:55. > :21:01.office under Harold Wilson. But after a difficult few months,
:21:02. > :21:04.with Parliamentary defeats and dissent from his own
:21:05. > :21:06.backbenchers, Mr Wilson decided As you know, Her Majesty the Queen
:21:07. > :21:19.has agreed to my request that Parliament should be dissolved
:21:20. > :21:21.on Friday, and the general election will be held
:21:22. > :21:23.on Thursday, 10th October. He was rewarded with a majority
:21:24. > :21:26.of just three seats. But within two years,
:21:27. > :21:28.there was a return to minority government, because of a by-election
:21:29. > :21:30.defeat and defections. Harold Wilson resigned
:21:31. > :21:32.and Jim Callaghan took over He was forced to make
:21:33. > :21:38.a series of unofficial deals with minority parties
:21:39. > :21:40.like the Ulster There was also the Lib-Lab pact
:21:41. > :21:50.in 1977, an agreement where Liberals supported the government in return
:21:51. > :21:58.for policy consultation. But this was short-lived, as a year
:21:59. > :22:01.later, the Liberals called it a day. As the parliamentary
:22:02. > :22:02.arithmetic got tighter, the whips brought in sick
:22:03. > :22:05.and injured MPs for crucial votes. But despite their efforts,
:22:06. > :22:10.when the Conservative leader Margaret Thatcher tabled a motion
:22:11. > :22:14.of no-confidence against a backdrop of the Winter of Discontent
:22:15. > :22:16.the government lost by one vote, ushering in 18 years
:22:17. > :22:31.of Conservative rule. So minority governments from the
:22:32. > :22:33.past. Brexit dominated the Queen's Speech,
:22:34. > :22:35.with eight bills relating Let's look in a bit more detail
:22:36. > :22:40.at what the Government is proposing and the challenges Mrs May might
:22:41. > :22:42.face in getting her The main piece of Brexit
:22:43. > :22:55.legislation is the Repeal Bill, which gets rid of the 1972
:22:56. > :22:57.European Communities Act and gives MPs the ability to convert or amend
:22:58. > :23:01.all EU law into UK law. The government says
:23:02. > :23:03.the Immigration Bill will enable the Government to end the free
:23:04. > :23:05.movement of EU nationals into the UK, but still allows
:23:06. > :23:08.the country to attract "the brightest and the best"
:23:09. > :23:10.people to work here. There are also bills relating
:23:11. > :23:14.to Customs and Trade, which allows the UK to have a stand-alone customs
:23:15. > :23:16.regime and flexibility to accommodate future trade
:23:17. > :23:19.agreements with the EU and others MPs vote next week
:23:20. > :23:24.on the Queen's Speech, but without a majority,
:23:25. > :23:26.the Conservatives are relying on a deal with Northern Ireland's
:23:27. > :23:28.Democratic Unionist Party - but no deal is currently in place,
:23:29. > :23:31.despite the election Once clear of the Commons,
:23:32. > :23:41.the legislation will also have to navigate the House of Lords,
:23:42. > :23:43.where the Tories also Peers have suggested that
:23:44. > :23:49.because Theresa May does not have a majority in the Commons,
:23:50. > :23:54.they would not have to respect the 'Salisbury Convention',
:23:55. > :23:57.where Lords do not oppose legislation that is in
:23:58. > :24:03.a government's manifesto. Labour's Baroness Smith has said
:24:04. > :24:06.the unelected chamber would respect We will find out what that means in
:24:07. > :24:17.a minute. And finally, the SNP could also
:24:18. > :24:19.cause the Government problems. Theresa May has suggested
:24:20. > :24:21.that the Scottish Parliament might need to approve parts of the Brexit
:24:22. > :24:24.legislation, with the SNP saying they want control over farming
:24:25. > :24:28.and fisheries policy. So those are some of the hurdles
:24:29. > :24:38.facing the Government. No doubt there will be more down the
:24:39. > :24:42.We'll come to the Lords in a moment, but first, let's talk
:24:43. > :24:46.We're joined now by Labour's John Mann, who campaigned for Brexit.
:24:47. > :24:53.Welcome to the programme. You were a prominent Labour Leave support. What
:24:54. > :25:00.you say to your party colleagues in the Lords who might be thinking of
:25:01. > :25:05.frustrating Brexit? We stood in a very clear election manifesto on the
:25:06. > :25:10.major issues and so that mandate is there and anyone who fears from it
:25:11. > :25:17.in the Lords, there will be a sub theme that will emerge, which will
:25:18. > :25:21.be Lords reform. I would expect at some stage the Commons will want to
:25:22. > :25:26.debate and deliberate and do something in that. So I would not
:25:27. > :25:31.be, if I was in the House of Lords, wanting to try and overturn the
:25:32. > :25:38.Labour manifesto. Obviously, the Conservative manifesto. And the
:25:39. > :25:45.referendum that took place. So let me spell this out, if the Lords do
:25:46. > :25:50.not behave, in your terms, you would threaten them with abolition? I
:25:51. > :25:53.would get rid of them anyway. Would you get a majority in today's
:25:54. > :25:59.Commons? Is the Government strong enough to do that? I think the
:26:00. > :26:04.likelihood of Lords reform is very high, if this Parliament lasts long
:26:05. > :26:12.enough for legislation to start taking place. Just one of the little
:26:13. > :26:18.sideshows. And the idea that unelected Lords could overturn
:26:19. > :26:25.decisions of the Commons that were in line with a Labour manifesto and
:26:26. > :26:30.the referendum, that the majority of the country voted on, would be
:26:31. > :26:33.anathema to most people, so it is going to need some finesse and skill
:26:34. > :26:39.in the Lords for them to play their role appropriately and effectively.
:26:40. > :26:42.And if they do, they will certainly have considerable influence, but if
:26:43. > :26:47.they overstepped the mark, I think that will come back very quickly in
:26:48. > :26:52.what authority they are overturning. What you say to that? I have been
:26:53. > :26:57.the Lords leader of the Labour Party for years and have lost count of how
:26:58. > :27:00.many times people say, if the Lords wreck this, we will abolish them. It
:27:01. > :27:06.is a misunderstanding of how the House of Lords operates. How are you
:27:07. > :27:11.going to operate in the Brexit bills? In the way that we always
:27:12. > :27:15.have and will do. The Salisbury Convention that you mentioned and
:27:16. > :27:20.Michael may agree, betrays a real misunderstanding. 1945, the Labour
:27:21. > :27:26.government, massive majority. It is important! You do not understand it.
:27:27. > :27:29.I do understand it, I know very well about the Salisbury Convention and
:27:30. > :27:33.it came in with the 1945 Labour government and the Lords do not
:27:34. > :27:38.challenge that Labour government. I am not trying to find out what
:27:39. > :27:43.happened in 1945. It is relevant! I know that, I want to know what you
:27:44. > :27:46.will do when these Brexit bills come to the Lords. You fight it up so I
:27:47. > :27:50.thought you would want to raise the issue. I think this thing about the
:27:51. > :27:54.Salisbury Convention and what happens is as if the fight is
:27:55. > :27:58.between the House of Lords and the Executive. The Government have the
:27:59. > :28:01.challenge not just through Brexit but through the House of Commons...
:28:02. > :28:05.But you are not in charge of the Commons, you are in charge of Labour
:28:06. > :28:09.in the Lords. I am asking you because you will not answer the
:28:10. > :28:14.question! Let me ask for a third time. I am trying really hard to
:28:15. > :28:18.answer your question! Will you answer the primacy of the Commons on
:28:19. > :28:22.this legislation will you attempt to amend it? I have made it very clear
:28:23. > :28:26.we observe the premises of the Commons, but if the Prime Minister
:28:27. > :28:31.does not get exactly what she wants out of the House of Commons, the
:28:32. > :28:34.Government cannot try and use the House of Lords or abuse the House of
:28:35. > :28:37.Lords to do what the Government wants, we have to look at the
:28:38. > :28:42.primacy of the Commons and not the Executive. But whatever comes to
:28:43. > :28:48.Lords will have been passed by the Commons, either primacy of the
:28:49. > :28:50.Commons. Yes. So shall you are obliged to observe that? All
:28:51. > :28:54.legislation comes from the Commons, we look at the detail of that and do
:28:55. > :28:58.things in the normal way we always have done which has never caused any
:28:59. > :29:01.excitement. Where John and others have got this totally wrong is the
:29:02. > :29:05.issue about what the Government can do in the House of Commons, and I
:29:06. > :29:09.think the biggest challenge for this Government stop Gregory Havret Prime
:29:10. > :29:17.Minister that could not put half a manifesto in the Queen's Speech. --
:29:18. > :29:22.for this Government. And we have a Prime Minister. You reassured by
:29:23. > :29:25.this? I understand what goes on in the Commons, a sit in the Commons
:29:26. > :29:31.and I am very clear what the manifesto is regarding immigration
:29:32. > :29:36.in the EU which hardly received any commentary on the election. A
:29:37. > :29:40.position I am far more comfortable with is immigration from Jeremy
:29:41. > :29:46.Corbyn's manifesto than we had from Gordon Brown, Tony Blair and Ed
:29:47. > :29:50.Miliband. And from what the Labour position is. The issue that emerges
:29:51. > :29:54.is if we have freelancing Lords who are in essence break the Labour whip
:29:55. > :30:00.by going against the Labour manifesto. Along with a grossly
:30:01. > :30:05.overrepresented number of Liberals. You said every time somebody does
:30:06. > :30:09.something the House of Lords you do not agree with, abolish the House of
:30:10. > :30:13.Lords, that is not grown-up politics. It is a revising chamber,
:30:14. > :30:17.it looks up legislation and make suggestions to the House of Commons,
:30:18. > :30:20.but it is always the House of Commons that has the final say and
:30:21. > :30:25.nobody I know in the House of Lords is challenging that.
:30:26. > :30:30.That's not what I said, I said in the context of having so many people
:30:31. > :30:34.in the House of Lords who are out of touch with the majority of the
:30:35. > :30:36.British population of the EU referendum, there is a likelihood I
:30:37. > :30:40.think at some stage that House of Lords reform will emerge, if this
:30:41. > :30:46.parliament last long enough for that kind of legislation. Hold on, John
:30:47. > :30:51.Mann, we are going to let you go now because you kindly came in at the
:30:52. > :30:58.last minute and we are grateful for you for coming in and giving your
:30:59. > :31:00.point of view, John Mann, Labour MP, Michael Coulson, it is a
:31:01. > :31:05.well-established convention at the House of Lords does not challenge
:31:06. > :31:07.the manifesto policies of a government with a majority. Does
:31:08. > :31:12.that apply to a hung parliament where it does not have a majority?
:31:13. > :31:16.You're not going to like my answer because I think your question is
:31:17. > :31:21.irrelevant. What Angela is saying is right, the House of Lords will look
:31:22. > :31:24.at the legislation from the House of Commons and often, that legislation
:31:25. > :31:27.has not even be properly scrutinised in the House of Commons, and they
:31:28. > :31:30.will discuss it and they may suggested amendments but the idea
:31:31. > :31:35.that House of Lords is going to obstruct a bill which gives us the
:31:36. > :31:39.ability to operate an immigration policy, for example, when we are
:31:40. > :31:43.committed to leaving the European Union by March 2019, we need to have
:31:44. > :31:45.these policies in place. I've no doubt people will suggest amendments
:31:46. > :31:50.but at the end of the day, the Commons will have the final say.
:31:51. > :31:54.That is what Angela said yesterday. Nobody reported the debate yesterday
:31:55. > :31:57.from the Lords but it was a very civilised discussion and the lords
:31:58. > :32:02.are not going to obstruct things but they are going to help make sure we
:32:03. > :32:07.get things right which is what the Prime Minister urged us to do. So
:32:08. > :32:11.let me make clear, Labour's policy in the Lords, it may wish to amend,
:32:12. > :32:16.improve as it sees the bill in its way but it will do nothing to
:32:17. > :32:19.obstruct the Brexit process? We have said that, you did this interview
:32:20. > :32:25.with me about a year ago and I gave you the same answer. I've been very
:32:26. > :32:28.clear. I can point out that a few things have happened in the past
:32:29. > :32:32.year, in fact, a few things have happened in the past month so it is
:32:33. > :32:35.relevant again. We have always been clear, it's not for the House of
:32:36. > :32:39.Lords to block Brexit and we've never tried to. We've made sensible
:32:40. > :32:43.suggestions to the government like on the position of EU nationals
:32:44. > :32:46.which would help our nationals abroad and the government has
:32:47. > :32:49.refused to accept that. I think that House of Lords got it right and
:32:50. > :32:53.maybe the Prime Minister is wishing she took our advice. But the final
:32:54. > :32:59.decision is with the House of Commons. We have taken the decision.
:33:00. > :33:03.What about the membership of the single market? Will Labour peers
:33:04. > :33:07.attempt to block after leaving membership of the single market? I
:33:08. > :33:13.think the possession of Labour peers is going to be that we would like to
:33:14. > :33:16.have terms and conditions to the single market as close as what we
:33:17. > :33:21.have got now while negotiations are going on. That is government and
:33:22. > :33:24.Labour policy in the Commons. No, because Theresa May said you wanted
:33:25. > :33:29.to come out of the single market completely. We think it is a good
:33:30. > :33:33.starting point... Let's get to that, the policy of the Labour manifesto
:33:34. > :33:37.and the Conservative manifesto was to end membership of the single
:33:38. > :33:42.market, still to attempt to have as good a free trade deal as they can
:33:43. > :33:48.get but no longer do have membership. Is that a policy that
:33:49. > :33:51.will be upheld in the Lords? I don't see that changing in the Lords but
:33:52. > :33:54.that does not mean we think the single market is a bad thing and I
:33:55. > :33:57.think we would like to get as close to the terms and conditions, as
:33:58. > :34:02.Michael Heseltine and David Davis have said, get as close to that as
:34:03. > :34:05.possible. Being a member of the EU means you are not a member of the
:34:06. > :34:10.single market, that is a matter of fact, but we don't want to throw the
:34:11. > :34:15.baby out with the bath water. There's nothing unclear about it.
:34:16. > :34:19.Let me be clear, do you support us leaving membership of the single
:34:20. > :34:24.market? It is a matter of fact that when we leave the EU, you have left
:34:25. > :34:27.the single market. What I think about it is irrelevant. Norway is a
:34:28. > :34:33.member of the single market but not a member of the EU. But it is a
:34:34. > :34:36.membership -- member of the EEA which gives it membership of the
:34:37. > :34:39.single market, which may be a transitional thing but membership of
:34:40. > :34:42.the single market will go when we leave the EU but we want to try to
:34:43. > :34:46.retain the benefits of the single market in terms of tariff free
:34:47. > :34:49.trade, for example, which is really important to British industry.
:34:50. > :34:54.Throwing the baby out with the bath water leaving the EU is not
:34:55. > :34:58.responsible. What about leaving the EU? That is something changing
:34:59. > :35:01.across the EU and one of the interesting thing about immigration
:35:02. > :35:07.is so many businesses and universities are now saying we want
:35:08. > :35:09.a sensible immigration policy. So a continuance of free movement? There
:35:10. > :35:13.must be some forms of free movement, not the same as it is now because we
:35:14. > :35:17.are leaving the EU but the position of the government of an immigration
:35:18. > :35:22.cap has not worked. It sounds like you are up for a lot of amendments
:35:23. > :35:27.that would quite substantially change what the government is trying
:35:28. > :35:30.to do. I think we will see the amendment in the House of Commons on
:35:31. > :35:34.this, actually. The point I was trying to make earlier, that you did
:35:35. > :35:37.not want to listen to, the point is, the amendments will happen in the
:35:38. > :35:41.Commons and we will have to examine what the Commons sends us, not the
:35:42. > :35:45.government's initial intentions. I know that but then you get a chance
:35:46. > :35:50.to amend in ways that you see fit to do. What I have been trying to
:35:51. > :35:53.establish if you are going to make substantive changes to the Brexit
:35:54. > :36:00.legislation, so it fundamentally changes the nature and the form and
:36:01. > :36:03.the manner in which we are leaving? You seem to be under its average and
:36:04. > :36:06.that the House of Lords changes legislation, if we make changes, we
:36:07. > :36:10.suggest it to the government and they go back to the Commons, which
:36:11. > :36:14.is the point I keep making, the House of Commons has primacy here so
:36:15. > :36:17.we may well suggest a number of amendments to the House of Commons
:36:18. > :36:22.but it will be for them to accept or reject. But going forward, you could
:36:23. > :36:31.delay the timetable? This is another question you put to me before and I
:36:32. > :36:33.will answer in the same way again, you don't have extended ping-pong,
:36:34. > :36:36.we might ask the Commons to think again and if they choose not to, we
:36:37. > :36:39.might occasionally asked them to think a second time but I can't
:36:40. > :36:42.because any occasion in the House of Lords when it has gone beyond that
:36:43. > :36:44.while I have been there. Why are you so confident the government's Brexit
:36:45. > :36:48.legislation will be largely unscathed in the Lords? Because we
:36:49. > :36:51.are legally committed to leaving the EU in March 2019, we need to put in
:36:52. > :36:54.place policies on immigration, fishing and a range of other things
:36:55. > :37:00.and the detail is important and the Commons will look at it and the
:37:01. > :37:02.Lords is full of people who have got considerable expertise as it is
:37:03. > :37:06.right they should be involved in the way the Prime Minister has
:37:07. > :37:10.suggested. But I am pretty confident that the House of Lords is not going
:37:11. > :37:13.to be used to obstruct the process and Angela in has beat yesterday
:37:14. > :37:19.made that very clear and there is no appetite in the House of Lords... Is
:37:20. > :37:23.he right to be confident? He is but I keep coming back to the point the
:37:24. > :37:25.House of Lords has never obstructed government legislation, we make
:37:26. > :37:28.suggestions but if the Prime Minister is going to be concerned, I
:37:29. > :37:32.would be concerned about the Commons. She might not have the
:37:33. > :37:42.majority for some of the things herself. She's not got a majority in
:37:43. > :37:44.her own party for some other things she has suggested, it is not just
:37:45. > :37:47.Brexit, it is other bills as well which is why the detail will be
:37:48. > :37:49.important, the House of Lords has expertise... The Labour manifesto
:37:50. > :37:51.campaigned on ending membership of the single market and the Labour
:37:52. > :37:57.manifesto recognised that free movement would have to end so isn't
:37:58. > :38:02.there a majority in the Commons, with Labour and Conservative, for
:38:03. > :38:04.these things? In the Labour manifesto, we accepted by leaving
:38:05. > :38:08.the European Union, it ends our membership of the single market.
:38:09. > :38:11.That does not mean we think the terms and conditions on which our
:38:12. > :38:15.businesses trade across Europe are bad and we should do the best to get
:38:16. > :38:20.as close to those as possible and not hamper our businesses and the
:38:21. > :38:23.economy. The Prime Minister says she wants that but unless she brings
:38:24. > :38:26.policies forward, she will find it difficult to get the business for
:38:27. > :38:30.the Commons. I don't think it will be as clear-cut as some making out,
:38:31. > :38:35.it can be very public they did. Finally, Michael, let me ask you
:38:36. > :38:39.about Scotland, the convention in which the Scottish Parliament has
:38:40. > :38:41.two, on matters that are devolved, the Scottish Parliament basically
:38:42. > :38:48.has to give consent to the Westminster Parliament, is... No.
:38:49. > :38:52.Some people say, and until the Supreme Court ruled this was not a
:38:53. > :38:55.legally binding matter, what is the situation on this? It is called a
:38:56. > :38:59.convention because it is a convention. Actually, we had a big
:39:00. > :39:03.debate on this when the government I think foolishly put it into the
:39:04. > :39:07.Scotland Bill but the clause said that they would not normally
:39:08. > :39:11.legislate in respect of devolved matters without a legislative
:39:12. > :39:15.consent motion. There is no requirement to do so. The SNP have
:39:16. > :39:20.been trying to make out it is a veto and they are in the absurd position
:39:21. > :39:24.of saying they should have a veto on the government being able to take
:39:25. > :39:28.back powers from the European Union whilst at the same time arguing that
:39:29. > :39:33.they want to remain in the European Union and those powers to remain in
:39:34. > :39:39.Brussels. It is absurd. But on the narrower constitutional point, you
:39:40. > :39:43.don't believe... No. That the Scottish Parliament has a veto on
:39:44. > :39:45.these Westminster issues? The European select committee, which
:39:46. > :39:50.gave evidence to and we discussed this in depth, my view is that there
:39:51. > :39:55.no veto and this is UK legislation and therefore, it does not apply and
:39:56. > :39:58.it is yet again the nationalists trying to make trouble and
:39:59. > :40:02.difficulty. Well, we asked the SNP to come on the programme today but
:40:03. > :40:04.they said no one was available. What a surprise!
:40:05. > :40:06.Now, the Liberal Democrats may have outperformed pretty low expectations
:40:07. > :40:15.at the general election, but they still only have 12 MPs
:40:16. > :40:20.But their share of the vote went down a bit. Some people have
:40:21. > :40:21.questioned the party's decision to campaign wholeheartedly against
:40:22. > :40:22.Brexit. Here's Tim Farron, announcing his
:40:23. > :40:31.resignation last week. This is a historic time in British
:40:32. > :40:34.politics. What happens next, in the next months and years, will shape
:40:35. > :40:39.our country for generations. My successor will inherit a party that
:40:40. > :40:44.is needed now more than ever before. Our future as an open, tolerant and
:40:45. > :40:48.united country is at stake. The cause of British liberalism has
:40:49. > :40:51.never been needed more. People who will fight for a Britain that is
:40:52. > :40:57.confident, generous and compassionate are needed more than
:40:58. > :41:01.ever before. That is the challenge our party and my successor faces,
:41:02. > :41:03.and the opportunity I am certain they will rise to with my help.
:41:04. > :41:06.Mr Farron has now left the building and the race
:41:07. > :41:09.So far, it's not exactly a crowded field.
:41:10. > :41:12.The only MP to have said they want the job is Vince Cable,
:41:13. > :41:25.Welcome back. Have not seen you for ages. Well I've been writing novels.
:41:26. > :41:28.Why are you doing this? I think it's important. I've come back, I did not
:41:29. > :41:33.expect to be here six weeks ago but I'm back at a crucial time for the
:41:34. > :41:37.country. And for the party. I think I have got a combination of
:41:38. > :41:43.experience, energy and enthusiasm. I think I could do the job well. I'm
:41:44. > :41:47.going for it. You said that "The political winds are moving in the
:41:48. > :41:53.Lib Dems' favour". Where are they coming from? What I mean by that is
:41:54. > :41:57.that I think there is a big gap opening up in what you good possibly
:41:58. > :42:01.call the centre of British politics. The Conservatives are in serious
:42:02. > :42:04.trouble, the 30 year war over Europe is reigniting in a serious way. The
:42:05. > :42:09.Labour Party did extremely well in the election, no getting away from
:42:10. > :42:12.that but I think the hard-core economic policies they have got,
:42:13. > :42:18.which are really not credible, I think open a space for a party which
:42:19. > :42:22.is economically literate, pro-business and has got experience
:42:23. > :42:27.of government. But that was the analysis of many Lib Dems when the
:42:28. > :42:31.election was called, that you have a Conservative Party in real trouble
:42:32. > :42:34.over Brexit, whatever, even more trouble than Theresa May thought, as
:42:35. > :42:38.it turned out, the Labour Party has moved to the left, now with the hour
:42:39. > :42:44.for the Lib Dems. You had your chance and in fact, you actually did
:42:45. > :42:49.worse in terms share of the vote, in total votes, land 2015 which was one
:42:50. > :42:54.of your worst in modern times? As you accepted at the beginning, did
:42:55. > :42:56.better in terms of MPs, we got more diversity but the vote share was
:42:57. > :43:01.down and the challenge is to get it but as you know, British politics is
:43:02. > :43:05.now moving very fast. It is highly uncertain. I'm pretty positive that
:43:06. > :43:11.if we can occupy that enormous ground in the middle of politics, we
:43:12. > :43:17.have got to Mendis opportunity. Was it a mistake for your party to call
:43:18. > :43:22.-- a tremendous opportunity. Was it a mistake for your party to go for a
:43:23. > :43:25.second referendum on the EU? I don't think it was a mistake but it did
:43:26. > :43:29.not cut through in the way we are tired and I think that was because a
:43:30. > :43:33.lot of people thought it was a way of running the old referendum
:43:34. > :43:37.because we thought it was wrong. It sounds as though you would jump
:43:38. > :43:40.that? No because the role of the second referendum is quite
:43:41. > :43:45.different, in two years' time, there will be a fundamentally different
:43:46. > :43:49.situation. You would have a second referendum? I would in two years'
:43:50. > :43:53.time. Let me just explain... You don't sound very enthusiastic about
:43:54. > :43:56.it. Orange Mackreth I am and when I made my leadership statement, it is
:43:57. > :43:59.up there at the front. It is a different question because we are
:44:00. > :44:03.faced with whether we want to accept the result of the negotiation or
:44:04. > :44:07.not. There may be other options on the table. It is a different
:44:08. > :44:09.question and a different set of issues and given the existing
:44:10. > :44:14.referendum has launched this process, we would need another one
:44:15. > :44:21.to close it off. That was not Tim Farron's policy. It was but... You
:44:22. > :44:25.called it is respect for and counter-productive. I didn't, had we
:44:26. > :44:28.had a second referendum to second-guess the previous one, that
:44:29. > :44:33.would have been disrespect but we accepted the result. What we are now
:44:34. > :44:35.arguing is that at the end of the negotiating process, the British
:44:36. > :44:42.public should have the right to approve what has come out of it. It
:44:43. > :44:44.could be a disastrous outcome. But although you have been in
:44:45. > :44:49.retirement, we have not stopped keeping track of you, in Brighton on
:44:50. > :44:55.the 19th of September, 2016, you said that to hold another vote on
:44:56. > :45:02.the Brexit deal secured by Theresa May was disrespectful to voters and
:45:03. > :45:06.politically counter-productive. Well, what I was talking about at
:45:07. > :45:10.that time... I don't think I used the word deal in that context but if
:45:11. > :45:14.I did, I did not put it correctly. You were referring to the deal which
:45:15. > :45:19.raises the question of the problems. I do remember the interview. No, you
:45:20. > :45:23.don't, you were speaking at a fringe event, not an interview. OK, at a
:45:24. > :45:27.fringe event, let me be clear, I have said throughout we should not
:45:28. > :45:29.have a second referendum to invalidate the last vote but we are
:45:30. > :45:33.dealing with a fundamentally different question when the
:45:34. > :45:37.negotiations have been completed. Do we accept the results? Supposing for
:45:38. > :45:44.example, the negotiations are a complete disaster and we have no
:45:45. > :45:47.deal, crashing out... It is not impossible. It could happen although
:45:48. > :45:52.large numbers of the Cabinet appear to be warning against it, we could
:45:53. > :45:54.get a bad deal so how do we terminate the process? In an ideal
:45:55. > :45:59.world it should be parliament but given this process has been set in
:46:00. > :46:03.train by a referendum, we would need another one to validate it. That is
:46:04. > :46:06.the context in which I have been speaking and I fully support the
:46:07. > :46:13.idea of having a referendum in those circumstances.
:46:14. > :46:20.You also as tree questions about a referendum on the deal. What happens
:46:21. > :46:25.if you win, is that binding, do you have a third referendum? What is the
:46:26. > :46:29.answer to your own questions? How we will round this process up, the
:46:30. > :46:33.country is very divided. Whatever happens, this thing is going to go
:46:34. > :46:37.on and on and the worse the outcome, the more we need to have the public
:46:38. > :46:42.on our side. So should we make it the best of three? I am not in
:46:43. > :46:46.favour of having a lot of referendums! Seriously, we are going
:46:47. > :46:50.to have... Well, you wore the one that's it, do we have a third?
:46:51. > :46:54.Potentially, we have an enormous mess at the end of this negotiation.
:46:55. > :46:59.You can say that again! We have to find a way out of it and how do we
:47:00. > :47:04.find a way out of it? Have you done a deal with Jo Swinson, from
:47:05. > :47:09.Scotland? I have not done a deal with any MP. People have said you
:47:10. > :47:13.will make a deal to do -- to be the leader for a couple of years and
:47:14. > :47:18.then stand aside for her. That is not true, I will run as leader and
:47:19. > :47:21.will run the course of the Parliament if I need to. If this
:47:22. > :47:26.Parliament does run for five years and that is a big if, if it does,
:47:27. > :47:31.you would be almost 80 by the next election. Yes, I would be quite a
:47:32. > :47:37.what younger than Gladstone when he 40 macro the general election. So
:47:38. > :47:42.you could see an 80-year-old taking the party into an election campaign?
:47:43. > :47:49.This is nothing to do with physically, it is how you feel. I
:47:50. > :47:53.have plenty of energy. So we could have a party of the young and the
:47:54. > :47:56.youth having an eight-year-old, that would be interesting. That is
:47:57. > :48:02.conceivable, five years is a long way away in the political scene, it
:48:03. > :48:05.is almost geological. We have to get through the issue of a potential
:48:06. > :48:12.early election, the Brexit negotiations. But I am definitely
:48:13. > :48:15.opt for it. I can see that. You are not just a politician, you have
:48:16. > :48:19.always been a commentator on politics and you follow it very
:48:20. > :48:23.carefully, and the economy. We have talked many times on these issues.
:48:24. > :48:28.How long do you think the Government will survive, is it possible? I
:48:29. > :48:32.think it could survive quite a long time, not least because I do not
:48:33. > :48:36.think the public have an appetite for an election. We have had three
:48:37. > :48:40.votes in two years and in each case the country has become more divided.
:48:41. > :48:44.Four in Scotland in three years. So I do not think there is any appetite
:48:45. > :48:48.among serious people to have another look election. But we have to
:48:49. > :48:51.perform the role of opposition and we will be constructive and that is
:48:52. > :48:57.the role we will perform. Do you know who you will be facing? I think
:48:58. > :49:02.Ed Davey, a good colleague of mine. We will wait and see. And when will
:49:03. > :49:09.we get the result? In September. Before the party conference. Before
:49:10. > :49:12.it? You should add a bit of excitement to the conference and
:49:13. > :49:17.hold it back, we always need excitement at a Lib Dem conference!
:49:18. > :49:21.That is for our powers that be to decide, it will comply with whatever
:49:22. > :49:23.it is. I shall watch from afar. Vince Cable.
:49:24. > :49:26.Now, if you're one of the 130,000 or so people heading
:49:27. > :49:34.to Glastonbury Festival this weekend, you might be
:49:35. > :49:35.looking forward to leaving politics behind you.
:49:36. > :49:37.If so, bad luck, because it looks like some
:49:38. > :49:44.Jeremy Corbyn, who likes to say he's got youth on his side,
:49:45. > :49:46.will be introducing the American rap duo Run the Jewels.
:49:47. > :49:50.But if there are any other MPs about to get on the train
:49:51. > :49:57.to Somerset, worrying about what to pack and how to behave
:49:58. > :49:59.- then worry no more, because here's Ellie,
:50:00. > :50:02.with our political guide to attending a festival.
:50:03. > :50:11.Glastonbury and getting ready for it may not be as easy as it looks.
:50:12. > :50:15.Tents, like controversial policies, can be difficult to pitch. So
:50:16. > :50:23.politicians, this is a little help from your friends at the Daily
:50:24. > :50:27.Politics. In our guide to festivals. Get a friend to show you the ropes.
:50:28. > :50:36.I am surrounded by new Bis dashing nudists now! Hi, Richard. Before he
:50:37. > :50:41.was an MP or the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson was invited to
:50:42. > :50:44.Glastonbury with an unlikely friend. Singer and songwriter and left-wing
:50:45. > :50:53.activist Billy Bragg, he loved it, once he worked out how to pronounce
:50:54. > :50:57.it. What you say, Glastonbury? It is not the hunting and shooting and
:50:58. > :51:02.fishing brigade. If you are a politician, you probably never
:51:03. > :51:05.switch off. Say yes to taking part in little programmes while you are
:51:06. > :51:14.there but find a public -- a quiet spot. We will leave it there, thank
:51:15. > :51:19.you. Enjoy yourself, but remember a silent disco does not mean other
:51:20. > :51:23.people will not hear you. Silent disco! Webber's Deputy Leader Tom
:51:24. > :51:29.Watson posted various images of himself in social media having a
:51:30. > :51:33.great time, but white trousers? Make sure you know how you're getting
:51:34. > :51:37.home, Tom Watson did not look like he did and it is 122 miles back to
:51:38. > :51:41.Westminster. And if you are late back, do not tell people you are
:51:42. > :51:47.going. Clive Lewis, who is going again year, last time missed his
:51:48. > :51:50.debate in Parliament as Shadow Defence Secretary because he was not
:51:51. > :51:56.back in time. We welcome the new Shadow Defence Secretary. I think he
:51:57. > :52:01.has gone AWOL in his first parade! And here are some final thoughts for
:52:02. > :52:04.our festival frenzy to politicians. The weather can be unpredictable,
:52:05. > :52:08.there could be storms, with lots of different cams, you might get lost,
:52:09. > :52:13.and there will be people walking around who you may suspect are high,
:52:14. > :52:18.but you are used to that in Westminster! There you go, the
:52:19. > :52:20.definitive guide. With Mr MacRae were to an John MacDonald about to
:52:21. > :52:25.make... -- with Mr Corbyn and John McDonnell
:52:26. > :52:28.both due to make appearances at the festival, you could be
:52:29. > :52:30.forgiven for thinking that only people with left-wing political
:52:31. > :52:32.views are allowed in. I'm reliably informed that isn't one
:52:33. > :52:35.of the entry requirements, and to prove it, we've even managed
:52:36. > :52:47.to find a Conservative activist I assume you are not going to that
:52:48. > :52:51.wearing that? No, probably not. No, because she would stick out like a
:52:52. > :52:57.sore thumb and they would assume you were a Tory! When he addresses his
:52:58. > :53:01.adoring fans in The Pyramid stage, what will you be doing? Hopefully
:53:02. > :53:08.something else, listening to music or watching a film with family and
:53:09. > :53:12.friends, whatever. Can you watch a film at Glastonbury? Yes, they have
:53:13. > :53:17.a theatre stage. What is the point of that? It is about getting
:53:18. > :53:21.together and having a fun time with people whose company you enjoy. Have
:53:22. > :53:25.you been before? Yes, I have been twice before. Have you got a fancy
:53:26. > :53:32.tent? Not quite, I go with family who Glastonbury veterans so they
:53:33. > :53:38.sought me out, not too bad. You the only Conservative who will be there?
:53:39. > :53:47.Not sure! That is refreshingly honest! You mean there might be one
:53:48. > :53:50.of the? Perhaps! Yes, I do not expect you would catch many people
:53:51. > :53:55.admitting they were Conservative there because very left-wing! You
:53:56. > :54:02.have no choice now, they are watching you on telly, you have a
:54:03. > :54:08.big neon sign! Why do you think 18 to 24-year-olds and even and
:54:09. > :54:13.34-year-olds voted substantially for Mr Corbyn and very few for the
:54:14. > :54:18.Conservatives? I think it is Jeremy Corbyn's cornucopia of goodies he
:54:19. > :54:22.offered in this manifesto. Things like rent control and free tuition
:54:23. > :54:25.fees, these things typically very attractive to young people who
:54:26. > :54:30.perhaps do not have as much money as people further down the line. I
:54:31. > :54:38.think that is probably true and explains why Labour got 62% of the
:54:39. > :54:42.youth vote and your party got 27%. Why should young people believe in
:54:43. > :54:47.capitalism when they have no capital? I think it is because
:54:48. > :54:51.capitalism really come at the end of the day, has been proven time and
:54:52. > :54:55.time again to be the most benign system there is. You are not
:54:56. > :55:00.convincing the young people. No, neither is Theresa May. That is what
:55:01. > :55:07.I am talking about! And her form of capitalism is a kind of
:55:08. > :55:09.protectionism and it is not reflective of the world and free
:55:10. > :55:14.markets. Her failure to win the intellectual battle over her
:55:15. > :55:19.policies and failing to explain why her policies would help young people
:55:20. > :55:23.is a big part of why she was the youth vote. You going to take your
:55:24. > :55:28.life in your hands and attempt canvassing at Glastonbury? Goodness,
:55:29. > :55:33.no! I did not even canvassed during the general election. Maybe that is
:55:34. > :55:37.why so few young people if you cannot even be bothered to campus.
:55:38. > :55:42.No, I did a protest vote at this general election and I voted for
:55:43. > :55:44.Liberal Democrats because I live in a Conservative safe seat and was
:55:45. > :55:49.disillusioned with the way the Conservative Party was. So even in a
:55:50. > :55:55.safe seat, they cannot count on your support? How long will you go for? I
:55:56. > :55:59.will go down this afternoon and I will leave on Sunday night. Good
:56:00. > :56:05.luck and I hope the weather holds up! I have been told it will break
:56:06. > :56:08.up. Fancy going? No, I am not nearly as cool as everybody else at
:56:09. > :56:12.Glastonbury! I don't think they will be very call this weekend! Would you
:56:13. > :56:18.care to double the numbers and make it two Tories? I think I might stick
:56:19. > :56:24.out like more of a sore thumb! That I would not wear a tie, no. But
:56:25. > :56:27.that's tie, and might be tempted. You notice!
:56:28. > :56:30.There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
:56:31. > :56:33.The question was about Boris Johnson getting in a muddle on the radio,
:56:34. > :56:36.and which comic double act was the interview compared to?
:56:37. > :56:42.So, Angela and Michael, what's the correct answer?
:56:43. > :56:53.It sounded like the two runners. What does this Queen's Speech do to
:56:54. > :56:56.make sure the criminal justice system stops treating black people
:56:57. > :57:04.more harshly than white? There are measures, I believe in the Bill in
:57:05. > :57:12.the courts which I think is supposed to address some of those issues and
:57:13. > :57:21.one thing in particular that we are looking at is... Measures to, hang
:57:22. > :57:25.on a second... That what all sorts of measures that we want is to take,
:57:26. > :57:31.to ensure that we do not discriminate against everybody. Does
:57:32. > :57:38.that sound like the next Prime Minister of the United Kingdom?
:57:39. > :57:41.Probably not. It sounded a bit like Diane Abbott. It was on the Diane
:57:42. > :57:46.Abbott scale. It is a lesson to everybody that if you have got your
:57:47. > :57:50.notes, do not start flicking through paper and know your stuff before you
:57:51. > :57:54.go on. That is what we have begun to expect from Boris, he will laugh it
:57:55. > :57:59.off as a joke and it is not he is our Secretary. He should have
:58:00. > :58:01.learned by now, if you are talking in the Queen's Speech, you should
:58:02. > :58:07.know what is in it. I think interviewers are becoming
:58:08. > :58:12.increasingly cruel to politicians. Well, it passes the time! It is not
:58:13. > :58:18.cruel to ask a question about... The Prime Minister talked about a
:58:19. > :58:22.burning injustice, it is not a cruel question to talk about what deals
:58:23. > :58:26.with that. When they do not get it right, to play it over and over
:58:27. > :58:31.again is quite cruel. He made a virtue of being shambolic and it is
:58:32. > :58:33.not fun when you Foreign Secretary. We will leave it there. That is all
:58:34. > :58:35.for today. The One o'clock news is starting
:58:36. > :58:38.over on BBC One now. I will be back tonight
:58:39. > :58:40.with Alan Johnson, Michael Portillo, Michelle Dewbury, Richard Madeley
:58:41. > :58:42.and Melanie Phillips The critically-acclaimed
:58:43. > :59:05.series is back. then we have to treat only patients
:59:06. > :59:09.with very early stages of