:00:37. > :00:38.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:39. > :00:41.Theresa May unveils a "fair and serious" offer to EU citizens
:00:42. > :00:45.which would grant a new "settled status" to migrants who've lived
:00:46. > :00:53.Police investigating the Grenfell Tower fire say
:00:54. > :00:55.they are considering a range of criminal charges,
:00:56. > :00:59.including manslaughter, after cladding and insulation failed
:01:00. > :01:07.It's exactly a year since Britain voted to leave the European Union.
:01:08. > :01:10.We're joined by leading lights from the Leave and Remain campaigns
:01:11. > :01:13.to reflect on that momentous decision and a tumultuous
:01:14. > :01:21.Jeremy Corbyn has proven that anti-austerity policies are popular!
:01:22. > :01:23.And things can often get spicy when politicians come
:01:24. > :01:43.And with me for the duration, two key players from the referendum
:01:44. > :01:45.campaign which led to the vote exactly a year ago today.
:01:46. > :01:47.Matthew Elliott was chief executive of Vote Leave
:01:48. > :01:59.and Lucy Thomas was deputy director of Britain Stronger In Europe.
:02:00. > :02:04.She is now head of Brexit advice at a PR firm.
:02:05. > :02:07.So let's just rewind one year and remind ourselves of that moment
:02:08. > :02:10.during the BBC's coverage when it became clear that Britain had
:02:11. > :02:14.Well, at 20 minutes to five, we can now say the decision taken
:02:15. > :02:18.in 1975 by this country to join the Common Market has been reversed
:02:19. > :02:27.We are absolutely clear now that there is no way
:02:28. > :02:33.It looks as though the gap's going to be something like 52-48,
:02:34. > :02:38.so a four-point lead for leaving the EU, and that's the result
:02:39. > :02:44.of this referendum, which has been preceded by weeks and months
:02:45. > :02:48.of argument and dispute and all the rest of it.
:02:49. > :02:55.The British people have spoken and the answer is, we're out.
:02:56. > :03:04.Matthew Elliott, how did you feel? Elated, very tired as well. It had
:03:05. > :03:12.been a long campaign. You are not alone, I think! And how do you feel
:03:13. > :03:15.now? Still elated. I think that we haven't seen Project Fear, the
:03:16. > :03:22.economy is going well, negotiations have started so we are on track. How
:03:23. > :03:25.did you feel? The opposite, very sad, emotional, looking at what was
:03:26. > :03:30.happening to the pound, to the market. I find it astonishing that
:03:31. > :03:35.Matthew is still elated given that real wages have gone down. We have
:03:36. > :03:39.had inflation and prices going up. People are already feeling squeezed.
:03:40. > :03:45.For me, actually being involved in the campaign, I was concerned at
:03:46. > :03:49.what happened were we to leave and what consequences be, and we still
:03:50. > :03:55.don't know where we will end up, we barely know what the UK position is,
:03:56. > :03:57.let alone the final outcome, and so unfortunately I am still pretty
:03:58. > :04:03.pessimistic, but certainly that night it was a real shock, and let's
:04:04. > :04:08.not forget that we thought, and lots of people assumed, that we would
:04:09. > :04:11.win. So I think that that shock was real, both our internal polling,
:04:12. > :04:18.with Nigel Farage conceding right away, and so it was both a shock and
:04:19. > :04:24.a disappointment. Where you shocked to win? I wasn't. Ever since David
:04:25. > :04:27.Cameron came back with his deal and Boris Johnson came on the Leave
:04:28. > :04:33.side, I thought there was a good chance we would win. I thought --
:04:34. > :04:37.was never overly confident though. But events have happened, dear boy,
:04:38. > :04:41.to coin a phrase, and a lot has changed. You say you feel the same
:04:42. > :04:49.way as you did when the result was announced. What do you make of the
:04:50. > :04:52.tumultuous year we have had? It's been incredible and internationally
:04:53. > :04:57.as well, the election of President Trump, and in France, the election
:04:58. > :05:03.of president macron, so politics seems to be shaken up, and there
:05:04. > :05:07.seems to be a big push against the establishment, a big push against
:05:08. > :05:12.the status quo. Did you think it would have that sort of impact? Do
:05:13. > :05:15.you think some of it stemmed from Brexit? I think it all flowed from
:05:16. > :05:20.the antiestablishment feeling, which I think can be traced back to the
:05:21. > :05:25.financial crisis. That led to some of the things Lucy talked about in
:05:26. > :05:31.terms of lower wages. When we look now, after what has happened, do you
:05:32. > :05:34.think that things have changed in people's attitude towards Brexit? I
:05:35. > :05:39.think, in terms of whether they regret voting a certain way, first
:05:40. > :05:44.of all, it was incredibly divisive, so I think it's unfortunate in what
:05:45. > :05:47.it has under politics. I think families and friendships were
:05:48. > :05:53.divided. I suppose that is nature of a referendum. It's unfortunate when,
:05:54. > :05:57.anecdotally, you hear people saying that they voted to leave but they
:05:58. > :06:00.didn't realise that prices would go up, or whether they would have
:06:01. > :06:05.strawberries this week, and we have had a dramatic drop in the number of
:06:06. > :06:09.people applying to become nurses this country from the EU, something
:06:10. > :06:15.like 96% down. You do hear people regretting. But what I think is
:06:16. > :06:20.interesting is that only 22% of people want to stop the Brexit
:06:21. > :06:23.process, so there is an overwhelming consensus that we do need to get on
:06:24. > :06:27.with it, and I entirely agree that the decision has been taken and
:06:28. > :06:31.there is no going back. It should be got on with, but I do think, where
:06:32. > :06:37.Matthew and I will probably disagree, that's about the terms.
:06:38. > :06:41.Where is the mandate for what terms, and what happened in the
:06:42. > :06:44.negotiation? Do you think the mandate has changed? Do you accept
:06:45. > :06:49.that people are only now realising what they voted for or do you think
:06:50. > :06:54.that they know full well what Brexit meant? I think they knew full well.
:06:55. > :07:03.There was a poll when 70% of people wanted Brexit to be enacted, and
:07:04. > :07:06.there is this term of the re levers, they saw the economy didn't collapse
:07:07. > :07:14.and they are quite comfortable. So you think many remain those would
:07:15. > :07:16.want to get on with it and that uncertainty is worse than leaving?
:07:17. > :07:20.Very much so, they want the government to get on with it and
:07:21. > :07:23.they like the fact that both Labour and manifesto that Labour and
:07:24. > :07:25.Conservative manifesto is at in them.
:07:26. > :07:27.Now, if you're watching the Daily Politics you're
:07:28. > :07:30.a political junkie, at least we like to think that's the reason,
:07:31. > :07:32.so you'll undoubtedly be across the full range
:07:33. > :07:36.But if you caught Question Time last night you'll have seen something
:07:37. > :07:40.So our quiz for today is: What happened next?
:07:41. > :07:42.Jeremy Corbyn has proven that anti-austerity policies are popular!
:07:43. > :07:49.The Tories and the Blairites lost that election.
:07:50. > :07:53.We have to find ways in which to continue to put more
:07:54. > :07:54.resources into social care in a way...
:07:55. > :08:03.He just has to go on for longer if you shout out.
:08:04. > :08:08.So you might as well keep quiet and let him hear what he has to say.
:08:09. > :08:11.And at the end of the show Matthew and Lucy will give
:08:12. > :08:16.Theresa May sat down for dinner with the 27 other EU leaders
:08:17. > :08:20.in Brussels last night and she made a quote "fair and serious offer"
:08:21. > :08:26.on the rights of EU citizens currently living here in the UK.
:08:27. > :08:29.So let's take a look at what she proposed...
:08:30. > :08:31.The Prime Minister said that, at the point when Brexit happens,
:08:32. > :08:35.many of the EU citizens living here will be able to get
:08:36. > :08:40.what she called "settled status" here in the UK.
:08:41. > :08:42.That means that they would have the same rights
:08:43. > :08:44.and entitlements as UK citizens in terms of healthcare,
:08:45. > :08:47.benefits and pensions, according to the government.
:08:48. > :08:50.However, EU citizens will only be guaranteed to get "settled status"
:08:51. > :08:53.if they've been living in the UK for five years before
:08:54. > :08:59.It's thought that the cut-off date could be any time
:09:00. > :09:01.between March this year, when the Brexit process began,
:09:02. > :09:07.and the end of the negotiations, which are due in March 2019.
:09:08. > :09:09.Theresa May also said that the rights of EU citizens
:09:10. > :09:12.will be enshrined in UK law and therefore enforced
:09:13. > :09:17.by UK courts, not by the European Court of Justice -
:09:18. > :09:22.that could be a potential sticking point in the negotiations.
:09:23. > :09:25.It's not yet clear whether the offer will apply to the children
:09:26. > :09:28.and spouses of EU citizens living here, but we're expecting
:09:29. > :09:31.to get more details from the government on Monday.
:09:32. > :09:35.The offer made by Theresa May last night is dependent on the EU
:09:36. > :09:37.reciprocating with an equivalent offer for UK citizens currently
:09:38. > :09:48.living in the EU and it's not yet clear if that will happen.
:09:49. > :09:54.Let's talk to a familiar face, our Brussels reporter, Adam Fleming.
:09:55. > :10:03.Adam, how has this offer gone down with other EU leaders?
:10:04. > :10:08.It's fair to say it's been pretty lukewarm, the response to Theresa
:10:09. > :10:13.May's fair and serious offer, as she called it. We have seen quite a feud
:10:14. > :10:18.EU figures arriving this morning at a summit not particularly happy with
:10:19. > :10:21.this offer. The Austrian Chancellor welcoming the fact it was made, but
:10:22. > :10:26.saying there was a lot more work to be done. Jean-Claude Juncker, the
:10:27. > :10:29.president of the European Commission, saying that it just
:10:30. > :10:32.didn't go far enough. He published Europe minister tweeting that it
:10:33. > :10:37.wasn't substantial enough. We have just had a tweet from the MEP who
:10:38. > :10:41.will coordinate the European Parliament response to this saying
:10:42. > :10:45.that it is just not enough. So a flavour of how this offer is going
:10:46. > :10:48.down with people. Actually, officials are waiting to see the
:10:49. > :10:52.detail. They are treating this as the starter rather than the main
:10:53. > :10:56.course, and they are waiting for Monday, when more details will be
:10:57. > :10:59.published in Parliament, and negotiations -- negotiators in
:11:00. > :11:04.Brussels will go through it line by line. So far, we haven't had any
:11:05. > :11:07.offer of response from the EU in terms of what they may give British
:11:08. > :11:13.citizens living in other EU countries. Quite the opposite,
:11:14. > :11:19.actually, sorry to correct you. The EU made its offer a couple of weeks
:11:20. > :11:23.ago in a big position paper they set out right at the start of their
:11:24. > :11:26.negotiating stance, when they were sitting it out, and basically be
:11:27. > :11:30.feeling is that they have been pretty generous. They talked about
:11:31. > :11:35.things like giving EU nationals who lived in the UK the right to bring
:11:36. > :11:39.over a spouse or a child lives elsewhere in the EU after Brexit.
:11:40. > :11:45.They talked about people who lived in the UK at any point being able to
:11:46. > :11:49.come to the UK and take up their rights and, crucially, they want it
:11:50. > :11:53.all to be guaranteed by judges in the European courts of justice. So
:11:54. > :11:57.they say they have been very clear, they have made their proposal and
:11:58. > :12:01.they are waiting for the detail of the British side. In terms of where
:12:02. > :12:05.we go from here, do you think there has been disappointment on the
:12:06. > :12:12.British side to the fact that there hasn't been universal support from
:12:13. > :12:16.EU leaders? I think Theresa May may come away from this feeling that her
:12:17. > :12:23.offer that she thought was there, Sirius, big and generous hasn't been
:12:24. > :12:28.welcomed with an alloy and joy from the side. Either that or number ten
:12:29. > :12:33.will have been expecting this because this is what happened in a
:12:34. > :12:37.negotiation. From my point of view, this isn't really the end of it at
:12:38. > :12:41.all, it's just the beginning of the beginning, and there will be a lot
:12:42. > :12:45.more toing and froing about these issues, and it will be fascinating
:12:46. > :12:48.to see what staff the EU put in their original offer that they are
:12:49. > :12:53.willing to come from eyes on so they can move to this point. What staff
:12:54. > :12:58.is in Theresa May's offer that she can up the anti on. At this issue
:12:59. > :13:02.has to be sorted out right at the start because the EU has said this
:13:03. > :13:07.is one of the priority issues, along with the Brexit Bill that have to be
:13:08. > :13:11.sorted before negotiations can move the second phase, talking about the
:13:12. > :13:13.future of relationships on trade and things like that with the EU and UK
:13:14. > :13:15.after Brexit. Joining me now is the Conservative
:13:16. > :13:25.MEP Daniel Hannan. Theresa May made it clear last night
:13:26. > :13:30.that this offer is conditional on British citizens in the EU getting a
:13:31. > :13:34.reciprocal deal. Would it have been better just to have made her offer
:13:35. > :13:41.on a unilateral basis and left it with the EU to come back with a
:13:42. > :13:44.counter offer? In practice, we have two unilateral offers an citizens
:13:45. > :13:49.rights, so it's a technicality. I am glad she has done this. During the
:13:50. > :13:54.referendum campaign, I canvassed more than one EU national and I said
:13:55. > :13:57.the only change would be that they didn't vote any more in European
:13:58. > :14:01.elections. I am pleased that this issue can give reassurance to
:14:02. > :14:04.people. There are many EU nationals who have made their lives there and
:14:05. > :14:08.who have been in a state of limbo and I hope they will now see there
:14:09. > :14:12.is no threat to a change in their status. What you say that, but at
:14:13. > :14:16.the moment it is an offer from the British government but, as said, it
:14:17. > :14:20.is reliant on what you leaders say and do in response. And many of
:14:21. > :14:26.them, Jean-Claude Juncker, being one, said it is not sufficient. Mark
:14:27. > :14:28.Ritter has said that their 1000 questions left unanswered. Let's
:14:29. > :14:34.hope we don't have to go through them all. But that isn't a
:14:35. > :14:38.guarantee. People cannot be reassured that their future lives,
:14:39. > :14:42.workplace and residency is guaranteed. In practice, that was
:14:43. > :14:45.always guaranteed. The idea that we would start deporting a lot of
:14:46. > :14:52.people... That makes it sound quite strong. It's an unthinkable
:14:53. > :14:54.condition. This is the final confirmation of something everybody
:14:55. > :14:59.connected with new, that we were never going to start taking away the
:15:00. > :15:03.accrued rights. I would stress the generosity of what is on the table,
:15:04. > :15:08.in the sense that there are three times as many EU nationals here as
:15:09. > :15:11.there are Brits in Europe, so rather than treating people as a bargaining
:15:12. > :15:16.chip we have decided to guarantee and take that off the table before
:15:17. > :15:20.moving on to other issues, which I think is a very open-handed and
:15:21. > :15:25.decent gesture. What if it isn't reciprocated? Despite the fact there
:15:26. > :15:30.was an offer from the EU, or they set out what they would like, if it
:15:31. > :15:34.is not reciprocated and there is a stumbling block over this issue over
:15:35. > :15:38.who will guarantee people's rights, the European Court of Justice or
:15:39. > :15:43.whether it will be British courts, then what happens? The negotiations
:15:44. > :15:47.fall down. I think we stick to this offer, but I think it would be crazy
:15:48. > :15:52.to have a bilateral deal overseen by the court of only one side. That is
:15:53. > :15:55.saying that the captain of one team is also the referee. Imagine if I
:15:56. > :15:59.said that all future deals would ultimately be arbitrated by the
:16:00. > :16:03.British Privy Council. That would be ridiculous as it is only one side.
:16:04. > :16:08.What we should do is what the EU does in its relations with every
:16:09. > :16:10.other country, which is to have an arbitration mechanism including the
:16:11. > :16:16.ECJ and representatives of the other side.
:16:17. > :16:21.In the Evening Standard editorial George Osborne says that any
:16:22. > :16:26.Europeans living here will be able to remain here and use the public
:16:27. > :16:29.services they help to pay for, we would not need a complicated
:16:30. > :16:33.reciprocal arrangement with Europe or provide a role for the European
:16:34. > :16:39.Court of Justice, I think we should just do it. I think that is what
:16:40. > :16:43.will happen. Why is it being labelled as a conditional offer? We
:16:44. > :16:47.will see when the details are published next week but effectively
:16:48. > :16:53.we have an offer from the EU and the UK. If you want to call that two
:16:54. > :17:00.unilateral offers rather than a reciprocal one fine. I never thought
:17:01. > :17:04.of as any chance of us not doing this but it is nice to have it in
:17:05. > :17:10.black-and-white. You have said that repeatedly on the programme. Is it
:17:11. > :17:14.wise to make two unilateral offers? Should Theresa May not wait to see
:17:15. > :17:22.what is going to beat Alan T by other EU leaders because we are
:17:23. > :17:26.talking about beds abroad as well? The EU has made it clear there will
:17:27. > :17:29.not move on to talking about things like free-trade deal until this
:17:30. > :17:37.issue is sorted out so she was right to deal with that shot away. Are you
:17:38. > :17:41.reassured? On the face of it it seems what many EU citizens wanted.
:17:42. > :17:47.There are questions but broadly speaking do you welcome this? Yes. I
:17:48. > :17:51.understand why you would use it as part of the negotiation process. The
:17:52. > :17:56.fact the EU put it off and on the table several weeks ago which was
:17:57. > :18:01.very detailed and quite demanding in terms of what it was calling for,
:18:02. > :18:04.this ECJ point is going to be a sticking point because the EU is
:18:05. > :18:10.saying we do not trust you on a case-by-case basis to make these
:18:11. > :18:17.decisions fairly, so the point about how you arbitrate, who is it both
:18:18. > :18:22.sides will agree to? The EU will be kept cool than over the ECJ and
:18:23. > :18:27.other issues. It is a critical point because we are talking about
:18:28. > :18:32.people's rates than they have to be guaranteed by someone. If that is a
:18:33. > :18:39.sticking point what happens? If it is a year's time and there is no
:18:40. > :18:42.agreement, who is going to oversee people's rates here and abroad? We
:18:43. > :18:47.will oversee it. You are right to say this could be a sticking point
:18:48. > :18:53.in other parts of the talks. If the EU really does... One possibility is
:18:54. > :18:57.the putting it on the table to take it off later but if it is going to
:18:58. > :19:03.try to stick to this principle that it gets to be the referee as one of
:19:04. > :19:09.the two sides are dizzying does not want a deal and that would be sad.
:19:10. > :19:20.What you propose? Some sort of joint arbitration? Yes. ECJ judges get to
:19:21. > :19:24.decide if that is fear or not. Whether it is the EU Canada trade
:19:25. > :19:28.deal or the deal between the EU and others, there is an arbitration
:19:29. > :19:32.mechanism that takes account of the two sides and it would be
:19:33. > :19:36.extraordinary if the European Union were to say in the case of Britain
:19:37. > :19:41.uniquely, unlike in every other day or we have done, we are going to be
:19:42. > :19:47.judge and jury. It is insulting to say we do not have a functioning
:19:48. > :19:50.legal process in this country. I hope the 27 governments, who are
:19:51. > :19:54.much more pragmatic than some of these loud voices and the
:19:55. > :20:02.commission, would say not to throw the deal out. The 27 do not all
:20:03. > :20:07.agree. Angela Merkel welcome the offer from Theresa May but other
:20:08. > :20:14.leaders want more in terms of the rights of spouses, and children.
:20:15. > :20:19.None of that has been spelt out. We have not seen the detail. Could this
:20:20. > :20:25.be a case where the 27 start to disagree over whether this offer
:20:26. > :20:30.should be accepted? It's genuinely is a fair and generous offer. What
:20:31. > :20:33.it is offering in terms of spouses and children, EU nationals would
:20:34. > :20:38.have the chance to have exactly the same rights as British nationals
:20:39. > :20:43.except for voting. It is difficult to see anybody seeing that is not
:20:44. > :20:48.enough. That is as much as you can realistically... People living here
:20:49. > :20:52.for five years before this unknown cut-off date will get settled status
:20:53. > :20:57.and other Biba will be given the opportunity to continue living here
:20:58. > :21:02.and get the status after five years. What will happen to their rights in
:21:03. > :21:10.the interim? I assume it will carry on as now. We will have to see the
:21:11. > :21:14.White Paper. If any EU nationals want to make a long-term commitment
:21:15. > :21:19.to this country they are very welcome to apply for UK nationality.
:21:20. > :21:23.We love to have people who want to make a success of their British
:21:24. > :21:27.identity. Do you think that would be an enticement for people and also a
:21:28. > :21:31.guarantee that they would have enough time to build up settled
:21:32. > :21:36.status or apply for British citizenship? Some people will be on
:21:37. > :21:40.the downside of the argument of the referendum campaign who would not be
:21:41. > :21:45.happy with that. It comes down to people voted for. People thought
:21:46. > :21:49.they were reducing, some people thought they were reducing the
:21:50. > :21:55.number of migrants. We saw the number of hate crimes going up. Be
:21:56. > :22:06.clear, there was a spike... There was not. They said there was a
:22:07. > :22:10.spike. I am going to let you come back on it. It was related, it came
:22:11. > :22:15.after the EU referendum, they do not know if it was a direct result or if
:22:16. > :22:20.those people would have committed those crimes, but there was a spike
:22:21. > :22:25.and it came down. There is a website where people are invited to logon
:22:26. > :22:31.and advertise they have been victims hate crimes. There were an extra 31
:22:32. > :22:35.complaints and 96 hour period. None of which led to an increase in
:22:36. > :22:41.prosecutions and several of which were complaining about Nigel Farage.
:22:42. > :22:46.It was people letting off steam. The police press release said it should
:22:47. > :22:51.not be read as an increase. People are making this ludicrous claim
:22:52. > :22:58.there was a sudden rise in the heat crimes which bears no relation...
:22:59. > :23:04.There were more complaints but we broke down those statistics at the
:23:05. > :23:13.time... 31 people... We will have to look at that again. You accept
:23:14. > :23:16.claims like that are in century? There is increased animosity towards
:23:17. > :23:23.EU migrants. I know lots of people anecdotal Lee who have been told to
:23:24. > :23:28.go home. People walking down the road or on the tube being told, I
:23:29. > :23:32.voted so you would go home. It may not happen everywhere but it
:23:33. > :23:39.happens. There were three events held up as proof of as being an in
:23:40. > :23:44.tolerant country. He is a positive attack tapas bar and the famous
:23:45. > :23:58.anti-polish graffiti. The tapas bar was a burglary. This opposed
:23:59. > :24:02.anti-Polish graffiti was by a Pole. Even if they were not actually
:24:03. > :24:06.recorded as real crimes are you seeing you should dismiss the
:24:07. > :24:10.feelings of people? It goes without saying that any acts of intolerance
:24:11. > :24:16.or verbal violence or abuse are reprehensible. I hope we do not have
:24:17. > :24:19.to say that. It is not the case there has been any demonstrable
:24:20. > :24:23.increase of these attacks as a result of the referendum. We remain
:24:24. > :24:28.one of the countries in Europe with the most positive view of
:24:29. > :24:32.immigration, the most positive view of difference, of multiracial
:24:33. > :24:36.marriages. It is ludicrous to be beating ourselves up like this when
:24:37. > :24:39.there are countries that have genuine problems. Or people might
:24:40. > :24:44.see it is important to be realistic about some of the reactions after
:24:45. > :24:49.the referendum. In terms of the reactions of EU leaders to this
:24:50. > :24:53.offer, were you disappointed? Do you think it does not bode well in terms
:24:54. > :24:58.of the other areas of negotiation and getting a deal? How absurd it
:24:59. > :25:03.would have been if Theresa May had come out and said all British
:25:04. > :25:06.citizens living elsewhere in the EU should be adjudicated by British
:25:07. > :25:15.courts. If she had said that people would have said how rubbish it was.
:25:16. > :25:20.Why are people allowing the EU to have a say on this? Are you worried
:25:21. > :25:26.about the future of the negotiations of already EU leaders are making in
:25:27. > :25:31.your mind unreasonable objections? Doesn't bode ill for the
:25:32. > :25:35.negotiations ahead? I am not worried. The start of the talks this
:25:36. > :25:37.week, I was impressed with the dawn from both sides, it seemed to be
:25:38. > :25:42.constructive and win-win. Some breaking news just as we came
:25:43. > :25:46.on air, and a man has been charged with terrorism-related murder
:25:47. > :25:47.and attempted murder after the incident in Finsbury Park
:25:48. > :25:50.in London where a van was driven Darren Osborne, 47, from Cardiff,
:25:51. > :25:54.was arrested in the early hours of Monday morning,
:25:55. > :25:56.after the incident in which one person was killed and nine
:25:57. > :25:58.others taken to hospital, and today the Crown Prosecution
:25:59. > :26:07.Service have authorised charges. The Metropolitan Police have said
:26:08. > :26:09.they will consider manslaughter charges over the fire
:26:10. > :26:11.at the Grenfell Tower The police have confirmed
:26:12. > :26:15.that the fire was caused by a faulty fridge freezer and also say
:26:16. > :26:17.that the cladding on the outside of the building failed
:26:18. > :26:21.fire safety tests. 79 people are missing or presumed
:26:22. > :26:24.dead after the blaze destroyed 150 Let's have a listen to what one
:26:25. > :26:29.of the lead detectives had We are looking at every criminal
:26:30. > :26:38.offence, from manslaughter onwards. We are looking at every health
:26:39. > :26:43.and safety and fire safety offence, and we are reviewing every
:26:44. > :26:48.investigation, every company at the moment involved
:26:49. > :26:50.in the building and refurbishment Let's get the latest
:26:51. > :27:05.from our reporter Sarah Smith, We just heard from the lead
:27:06. > :27:08.detective. One of the things raised by people affected if they feel they
:27:09. > :27:14.have not had the true numbers of those affected or killed. Very
:27:15. > :27:20.difficult at this particular stage. Will they be reassured by what we
:27:21. > :27:27.have heard? We heard those numbers again today, 79 known to be dead or
:27:28. > :27:29.missing presumed dead, nine formal identifications. She was asked
:27:30. > :27:34.specifically about the fact people are worried there are many more. She
:27:35. > :27:41.did not shy away from the fact she feared there would be more but they
:27:42. > :27:43.have to be extremely careful and cannot go bandying figures around
:27:44. > :27:47.just because there is pressure on them to admit there are more. They
:27:48. > :27:51.have not hidden away from the fact. One of the things they were
:27:52. > :27:56.concerned about was they would be these hidden victims. She said the
:27:57. > :27:59.terrible reality is we may never find on identified all of those who
:28:00. > :28:03.died in the fire. One of the concerns is that there are people
:28:04. > :28:10.who would not naturally get in touch with the abilities, perhaps worried
:28:11. > :28:13.about immigration status or subletting or concerned they may be
:28:14. > :28:17.on the wrong side of the law, whom may not come forward, but she said
:28:18. > :28:21.they have to come forward if they know anybody who was living in those
:28:22. > :28:27.blocks or visiting, they have to come forward so they can get some
:28:28. > :28:30.sort of realistic figures. And going through a recovering what is left in
:28:31. > :28:35.the tower block they said that could take until at least the end of this
:28:36. > :28:39.year. What about the range of charges the police are considering?
:28:40. > :28:42.They have said they are looking at the full range of charges, health
:28:43. > :28:54.and safety violations up to manslaughter. It takes a much larger
:28:55. > :28:59.burden of Polly on my crew. They have seized documents from several
:29:00. > :29:03.premises although it will not be specific about what premises there
:29:04. > :29:07.are at the moment but we know their investigation continues with them
:29:08. > :29:13.looking at all of these details. Looking at how the fire started. And
:29:14. > :29:18.how it spread so quickly. It started because of this thread. It spread,
:29:19. > :29:21.the fear from last week has been is it because of the cladding and
:29:22. > :29:28.installation and they have carried out tests and said already in the
:29:29. > :29:29.tests they have carried out the cladding and insulation failed all
:29:30. > :29:33.of them. Communities and Local Government
:29:34. > :29:35.Secretary Sajid Javid has written to MPs to update them
:29:36. > :29:37.on the Government's response In the letter, he confirmed that 600
:29:38. > :29:41.buildings had cladding that was being tested,
:29:42. > :29:44.and so far 11 high-rise buildings in eight local authority areas had
:29:45. > :29:47.been found to have failed those safety tests, including
:29:48. > :29:48.buildings in Camden, This is what he had to say
:29:49. > :29:54.in the Commons yesterday afternoon. I think it's clear that any changes
:29:55. > :29:58.in the wake of this tragedy shouldn't just be technical
:29:59. > :30:02.or to legislation. What happened at Grenfell Tower also
:30:03. > :30:08.showed us all that we need We all need to rethink our approach
:30:09. > :30:16.to social housing, and we need to reflect on the way that
:30:17. > :30:19.successive governments have engaged with and responded
:30:20. > :30:23.to social tenants. We don't yet know for sure
:30:24. > :30:26.whether this disaster could have been avoided if the people
:30:27. > :30:31.who called Grenfell Tower their home had been listened to,
:30:32. > :30:35.but we do know that, for far too long, their voices
:30:36. > :30:38.fell on deaf ears. So, if nothing else,
:30:39. > :30:41.let the legacy of Grenfell be that such voices will never,
:30:42. > :30:47.ever be ignored again. To discuss this further,
:30:48. > :30:49.I'm joined by Russell Curtis, an architect who works for local
:30:50. > :30:51.authorities, and from Hammersmith I'm joined
:30:52. > :30:54.by the local Labour MP and Shadow Housing Minister,
:30:55. > :31:07.Andy Slaughter. Welcome to both of you. Andy
:31:08. > :31:10.Slaughter, what do you think now of the government's reaction and
:31:11. > :31:15.response, listening to Sajid Javid, I have a letter to MPs and it is
:31:16. > :31:17.comprehensive. Do you feel reassured that all action will be taken to
:31:18. > :31:24.prevent another Grenfell Tower happening? The challenges for the
:31:25. > :31:28.government keep growing, and I don't know whether they are up to them.
:31:29. > :31:32.They were very slow in spotting that disaster relief was not happening.
:31:33. > :31:37.That took a week longer than it should have done. We now have the
:31:38. > :31:40.issue of cladding, and there were confused messages on that yesterday,
:31:41. > :31:45.and just this morning, and this particularly concerns me, there is a
:31:46. > :31:50.serious issue in a separate dashboard in a separate tower in
:31:51. > :31:53.Shepherd's Bush last year and we learned it is down to goods
:31:54. > :31:57.manufactured by a company, and a year on from that, we have still not
:31:58. > :32:04.had a product recall of the tumble dryers which caused that, and 5.5
:32:05. > :32:07.million were manufactured. These are serious challenges the government
:32:08. > :32:12.has known about and I have seen little sign that they are taking it
:32:13. > :32:15.as seriously as they should. Let's look at the cladding issue, which
:32:16. > :32:21.has been talked about a lot, that could have contributed to the fire
:32:22. > :32:24.spreading and the excellent. Police say that the Grenfell cladding
:32:25. > :32:29.failed safety tests. Does that imply that there was not a safety test
:32:30. > :32:36.done before that cladding was put on? There is a lot of confusion
:32:37. > :32:41.around what these safety tests involved. The building regulations
:32:42. > :32:45.are I think it's fairly clear, they are out of date, but that the
:32:46. > :32:50.benchmark that we use as architects and industry professionals, to
:32:51. > :32:54.assess the performance of a building against, and that covers all sorts
:32:55. > :33:00.of things, fire, though more performance, all sorts of things.
:33:01. > :33:07.But I think there is a lack of clarity in building regulations as
:33:08. > :33:10.they stand over performance in particular circumstances. Would you
:33:11. > :33:14.agree with Camden council, who have taken the action of removing
:33:15. > :33:20.cladding panels from buildings they think are combustible from buildings
:33:21. > :33:25.in their area? I think it's probably a sensible precaution. I don't think
:33:26. > :33:28.that tall buildings are inherently unsafe and I'm not necessarily sure
:33:29. > :33:37.that I agree with the previous comment about... Obviously, that is
:33:38. > :33:40.an issue to look into, but there five in tall buildings frequently.
:33:41. > :33:46.It isn't rare. The issue how quickly it spreads. If it is a concrete
:33:47. > :33:50.faced or brick faced building, you simply don't see the spread of a
:33:51. > :33:55.fire from one dwelling to another. It just doesn't happen because of
:33:56. > :34:01.the way the buildings are designed. As soon as you wrap an existing
:34:02. > :34:05.building in a new skin, effectively, which these buildings were not
:34:06. > :34:10.intended to receive when they were originally designed in the 60s and
:34:11. > :34:14.70s, that becomes a problem. To pick up on your earlier point about the
:34:15. > :34:18.fridge freezer, Andy Slaughter, an investigation is being made into
:34:19. > :34:23.that particular model, the business department is looking into that. To
:34:24. > :34:27.come back, if we have still got Andy Slaughter... No, it looks as if we
:34:28. > :34:32.might have lost him. Staying with you, of course, there are lots of
:34:33. > :34:37.factors that can be contributory, but it does shine a spotlight on
:34:38. > :34:40.fire safety precautions. Putting the cladding to one side, what about
:34:41. > :34:45.sprinklers and fire extinguishers and alarms? If there are buildings
:34:46. > :34:51.without these precautions, are they at risk? One of the problems is that
:34:52. > :34:58.the reconfiguration of an existing building. Goldings from the 60s and
:34:59. > :35:03.70s, tower blocks like this, are inherently safe. -- buildings from
:35:04. > :35:08.the 60s and 70s. I think there is a question over if you take a building
:35:09. > :35:11.like that and you wrap it in a new cladding to improve thermal and
:35:12. > :35:15.acoustic performance and all that sort of thing. The problem is, are
:35:16. > :35:18.you fundamentally changing the design of that building and, if you
:35:19. > :35:23.do that, should you be required to install sprinklers and updated fire
:35:24. > :35:29.alarm systems and all of that sort of thing? At the moment, building
:35:30. > :35:33.regulations don't necessarily make that explicit. Andy Slaughter, I
:35:34. > :35:36.think we have you back. The number of buildings that are being looked
:35:37. > :35:42.at across the country, we could be talking about thousands of people in
:35:43. > :35:46.tower blocks across the UK. Would you be suggesting that they all be
:35:47. > :35:51.evacuated and rehoused whilst tests are carried out on the cladding?
:35:52. > :35:56.Look, let's get this into perspective. There is nothing
:35:57. > :36:00.inherently unsafe about either white goods or tower blocks but, if I
:36:01. > :36:04.lived in a tower block which had cladding that was thought to be
:36:05. > :36:07.dangerous, or I had a model of fridge or tumble dryer which had
:36:08. > :36:14.been found to cause fires, I would not feel comfortable, so we have it
:36:15. > :36:17.more seriously. This is a national emergency and disaster. The
:36:18. > :36:21.particular model of tumble dryer that has caused many fires,
:36:22. > :36:25.including the very serious tower block fire last year, the advice
:36:26. > :36:29.until a couple of months ago was that he would continue to use those.
:36:30. > :36:33.The government has a huge amount to answer for. There has been
:36:34. > :36:37.complacency. This will continue to be raised on a daily basis in
:36:38. > :36:42.Parliament until we get some action. In terms of the action, do you think
:36:43. > :36:47.people should be rehoused if they are found, some of the cladding on
:36:48. > :36:50.buildings, to have a combustible element? You can understand that
:36:51. > :36:53.people will not feel safe to sleep at night following what happened at
:36:54. > :37:01.Grenfell Tower, but are you saying that they should be re-homed across
:37:02. > :37:05.the country? I commend the action that councils like Camden, and I
:37:06. > :37:08.think and others are taking, which is not waiting but going ahead and
:37:09. > :37:13.making those buildings safe. You can't rely on this postcode lottery
:37:14. > :37:18.where individual councils, depending on their means and inclination, do
:37:19. > :37:21.this. For every single tower block that we have, government is to
:37:22. > :37:27.identify whether there is a risk and, if there is, that has to be
:37:28. > :37:30.made safe, or we will have other events like Grenfell. Do you think
:37:31. > :37:33.this is the point at which people should be moved out of their homes
:37:34. > :37:39.because they are worried about what might happen, and because they don't
:37:40. > :37:42.know the veracity of goods that might be in their tower blocks? I
:37:43. > :37:46.don't. I think they're obviously needs to be a rigorous regime of
:37:47. > :37:55.testing. Fires are very constipated things. There has been a lot of talk
:37:56. > :37:58.about the cladding. -- very complicated things. That is only one
:37:59. > :38:02.part of a larger assembly of components. I don't think that it is
:38:03. > :38:08.healthy to focus on a particular product when it may be that they're
:38:09. > :38:13.different configurations of that which might be particularly safe. I
:38:14. > :38:19.think we need to take a rational assessment of it without panicking
:38:20. > :38:23.and evacuating blocks. And we are also looking at private blocks which
:38:24. > :38:26.may have some sort of cladding around their building and they may
:38:27. > :38:30.be high-rise in some of it may be combustible. We don't know whether
:38:31. > :38:36.or not that material was found that white. If we are talking about the
:38:37. > :38:40.voices of residence in tower blocks, Andy Slaughter, we heard Sajid Javid
:38:41. > :38:44.saying they will never be ignored. But residents were presented on
:38:45. > :38:51.bodies and committees that were in charge of looking after buildings
:38:52. > :38:57.like Grenfell Tower, weren't they? Social housing as a type of tenure
:38:58. > :39:01.and social tenants have been sidelined, and this is a political
:39:02. > :39:05.issue, because I have experienced this over 30 years in trying to
:39:06. > :39:09.champion the rights of council and housing association tenants, and
:39:10. > :39:12.they have been downgraded. We have not only had no building, we have
:39:13. > :39:16.had estates demolished and sold off. If this is a sea change in
:39:17. > :39:19.Conservative policy towards social tenants and they are now prepared to
:39:20. > :39:24.build council and housing association houses to relieve the
:39:25. > :39:28.appalling conditions in overcrowded areas, I welcome it. But I will
:39:29. > :39:31.believe it when I see it because, for 30 years, there has been studied
:39:32. > :39:37.neglect by Conservative governments and councils. Lucy Thomas, what
:39:38. > :39:42.would you like to see happen? First of all, people have to be listened
:39:43. > :39:45.to. If you take a step back and look at the number of people who have
:39:46. > :39:49.been saying for a long time, we are not happy, do not have sprinklers
:39:50. > :39:53.and fire extinguishers, do not spend a bit more money on a slightly more
:39:54. > :39:56.expensive cladding and so on, that feels like a number of decisions
:39:57. > :40:00.were taken either to ignore people, to put people to the back of the
:40:01. > :40:05.queue, oh, they are complaining a bit too much, let's not listen to
:40:06. > :40:08.them, so both in terms of retrospective decisions, but also
:40:09. > :40:10.now in terms of the government response, our people feeling like
:40:11. > :40:14.they are being looked after properly? Why wasn't the Army sent
:40:15. > :40:18.down straightaway getting things sorted out, people being given
:40:19. > :40:24.provisions and so on? It feels like it been pretty chaotic. Andy, I
:40:25. > :40:27.think some of those in Labour have been very quick to point fingers
:40:28. > :40:31.about what this government has done, but actually there are previous
:40:32. > :40:36.reports and lessons that could have been learned pre-2010 from Labour
:40:37. > :40:40.governments. There are lots and lots of questions to be answered. Do you
:40:41. > :40:45.agree that social housing and the tenants that live in them have been
:40:46. > :40:49.sidelined over decades? I want to see the full force of the law used
:40:50. > :40:54.against contractors and officials if they are found to be negligent. I
:40:55. > :41:00.think too often people get let off. This is one of those issues where
:41:01. > :41:03.the public want the government to actually really use the full force
:41:04. > :41:07.of the law to make sure that people are held accountable. In terms of
:41:08. > :41:11.the guidelines you would come under as an architect doing government
:41:12. > :41:18.contracts, in your experience, do they have less oversight? Is less
:41:19. > :41:24.money spent? Are they less safe, broadly speaking, in the way that
:41:25. > :41:28.Andy Slaughter has outlined? I actually think that is very true. We
:41:29. > :41:32.have seen a move towards forms of procurement in recent years where I
:41:33. > :41:35.think people would be surprised how little involvement architects and
:41:36. > :41:40.other professionals have once a project start on site. This is a
:41:41. > :41:42.product of the way in which we procure public buildings these days,
:41:43. > :41:46.and I think it sidelines construction professionals and
:41:47. > :41:52.communities. I think that is a real shame, this top-down approach to
:41:53. > :41:55.estate regeneration and refurbishment. It's a tragedy.
:41:56. > :42:01.Actually we should be engaging with residence from the outset, with
:42:02. > :42:06.construction professionals like architects and others, to establish
:42:07. > :42:07.what is needed and to make sure that the ambitions for each project carry
:42:08. > :42:10.on through until it is finished. Now, it's a year since the Britain
:42:11. > :42:13.voted to leave the EU. And what a difference
:42:14. > :42:15.a year makes, or does it? Our two guests of the day,
:42:16. > :42:18.Matthew Elliott from Vote Leave and Lucy Thomas from
:42:19. > :42:20.Britain Stronger in Europe, have made two films giving
:42:21. > :42:23.us their take on the 12 months Let's take a look,
:42:24. > :42:25.starting with Matthew. A vote to leave will push our
:42:26. > :42:29.economy into a recession. The most significant
:42:30. > :42:32.event of the past year Forget Gina Miller's court case
:42:33. > :42:41.or the passage of Article 50. Frankly, you can even forget
:42:42. > :42:44.the general election. What's most significant is the fact
:42:45. > :42:49.that the economy didn't go downhill, which is why 70% of voters
:42:50. > :42:53.still want Brexit to go ahead. This is why I'm confident that
:42:54. > :42:59.Brexit will go ahead as planned. Gerard Lyons was Boris Johnson's
:43:00. > :43:01.chief economist when he Brexit is in the long-term best
:43:02. > :43:07.interests of the economy. Project Fear was driven more
:43:08. > :43:11.by politics than economic analysis. Hence we didn't have the financial
:43:12. > :43:14.armageddon or economic collapse that In fact, the economy has held up
:43:15. > :43:20.very well over the last year and the underlying picture,
:43:21. > :43:22.despite the current It's true to say that the election
:43:23. > :43:26.increased uncertainty. But, now the Brexit negotiations
:43:27. > :43:30.are under way, people will quickly see that a win-win deal
:43:31. > :43:33.is on the table and that the Government is committed to a full,
:43:34. > :43:37.clean and open Brexit, which will be good for
:43:38. > :43:42.the economy and for jobs. The Legatum Institute,
:43:43. > :43:45.where I now work, set up a special trade commission
:43:46. > :43:48.after the referendum. There are real opportunities
:43:49. > :43:53.for Britain as we go We can become a global
:43:54. > :44:00.trading partner. We can drive job creation and we can
:44:01. > :44:04.build a strong economy. But we can actually only do this
:44:05. > :44:09.if we leave the single market and customs union and take hold
:44:10. > :44:18.of that global trading role. Some people, who want
:44:19. > :44:20.Britain to stay in the EU, have used the recent election
:44:21. > :44:23.to suggest we should stay in the single market,
:44:24. > :44:26.but they conveniently forget that they told voters
:44:27. > :44:29.in the referendum campaign that a vote to leave was a vote to leave
:44:30. > :44:34.the single market. Personally, I agree
:44:35. > :44:37.with Lucy Thomas, who is a leading light of the Remain campaign,
:44:38. > :44:40.who talked during the referendum about the downsides of staying part
:44:41. > :44:45.of the single market, like Norway. If we were to follow
:44:46. > :44:48.the Norwegian EEA model, that wouldn't have a mandate and it
:44:49. > :44:50.wouldn't achieve the things the Leave campaign say
:44:51. > :44:53.they want to achieve, so we wouldn't be able to stop free
:44:54. > :44:56.movement of people - Norway accepts that -
:44:57. > :44:59.we'd still have to accept most EU rules with no say over them
:45:00. > :45:03.at all and we'd still have to pay into the EU budget, so it's far
:45:04. > :45:09.worse than the deal we have now. Both the Labour and Conservative
:45:10. > :45:11.manifestos committed their MPs to a full Brexit of leaving
:45:12. > :45:15.the single market and leaving the customs union, so it has
:45:16. > :45:18.the overwhelming support So now it's up to the
:45:19. > :45:25.Government to deliver. What excites me is that Brexit
:45:26. > :45:28.is about more than treaties. It's about the kind of country
:45:29. > :45:32.we want to live in. The general election
:45:33. > :45:36.was certainly a bump in the road, So that was Matthew's
:45:37. > :45:52.take, and now for Lucy. A year ago today, I was with other
:45:53. > :45:56.Remain campaigners in a room just up there when we found out Britain had
:45:57. > :46:01.voted to leave the EU. We always knew it would be close
:46:02. > :46:04.but our campaign data showed us So, a year on from that
:46:05. > :46:16.vote, where are we? Brexit talks have begun
:46:17. > :46:18.and the clock is ticking. But the UK's position and the final
:46:19. > :46:23.outcome are far from clear. Although people voted to leave
:46:24. > :46:26.there was never a detailed plan And people voted Leave
:46:27. > :46:35.for many different reasons. In fact, during the referendum,
:46:36. > :46:37.leave campaigners revelled in the fact that they
:46:38. > :46:46.didn't have a blueprint. One senior Brexit campaigner told me
:46:47. > :46:49.all he had to do was get people enthused about voting to leave,
:46:50. > :46:51.about Britain's brighter The finer details of what that
:46:52. > :46:54.actually looks like, that is down to the politicians
:46:55. > :46:56.to sort out. In that hastily convened government
:46:57. > :46:58.after the referendum the new Prime Minister
:46:59. > :47:00.and her colleagues decided amongst themselves what
:47:01. > :47:02.Brexit would look like. Earlier this year Theresa May
:47:03. > :47:06.spelt out their plan. We would be leaving both the single
:47:07. > :47:10.market and the customs union. So where does that
:47:11. > :47:20.leave plans for Brexit? Well, now the parliamentary
:47:21. > :47:22.arithmetic matters. The government may need
:47:23. > :47:26.to change its approach to guarantee Even some of the Conservatives'
:47:27. > :47:29.own backbenchers are saying the general election changed
:47:30. > :47:32.everything. The inconclusive result
:47:33. > :47:34.from the general election actually was an instruction from the British
:47:35. > :47:36.people to say, you know Actually, you've got
:47:37. > :47:41.to sort this out. And that means that actually that's
:47:42. > :47:43.down to backbench members of Parliament to be asking questions
:47:44. > :47:46.of the government, to be listening to our constituents all the way
:47:47. > :47:50.through this process. Leaving the EU was about
:47:51. > :47:52.Parliamentary sovereignty. Taking back control means taking
:47:53. > :47:57.back control into Parliament. So actually backbench MPs have
:47:58. > :48:00.to step up to the plate and make sure we get the most effective most
:48:01. > :48:02.sensible Brexit There is also the question
:48:03. > :48:07.of how to avoid a Brexit Many in the business community
:48:08. > :48:12.feel their voices have not been heard over the past year
:48:13. > :48:14.and there is real pressure We have settled down
:48:15. > :48:18.from the relative shock of the referendum result but one
:48:19. > :48:22.could argue another shock in terms That gives business an opportunity,
:48:23. > :48:30.an emboldened opportunity, to perhaps realign the debate
:48:31. > :48:34.on Brexit and by that I mean I think just working with government,
:48:35. > :48:37.encouraging government, pushing it if necessary,
:48:38. > :48:40.to move away from what I think we would call a harder ideological
:48:41. > :48:45.line to a smoother Brexit. So, a year on from the referendum
:48:46. > :48:48.and we have started walking towards the exit door,
:48:49. > :49:06.but the terms are Lizzie and Matthew, thank you. Do
:49:07. > :49:12.you think that is true, the terms are all to play for? I do not think
:49:13. > :49:18.they are. The conservative and Labour manifestos made it clear
:49:19. > :49:22.there was to be clean and Phil Brexit and those who wanted to fudge
:49:23. > :49:30.things and stay in the single market saw their vote share fall. It'll 5%
:49:31. > :49:34.of voters voted for the two parties who support Brexit, leaving the
:49:35. > :49:38.single market than the customs union. No. I have the Labour
:49:39. > :49:44.manifesto here. Nowhere does it say we will leave the single market. It
:49:45. > :49:47.says we will scrap the Conservatives' White Paper and
:49:48. > :49:54.emphasise retaining the benefits of the single market and the customs
:49:55. > :49:56.union. That is trying to retain as free as possible access. The
:49:57. > :50:04.Conservatives want exactly the same benefits. You are saying 85% wanted
:50:05. > :50:09.to leave the single market, that is not actually reading... It is
:50:10. > :50:18.important to see what people voted for. What about that? If Lucy is
:50:19. > :50:22.disputing the fact that the 85% of people who voted for Labour and
:50:23. > :50:26.Conservatives were not looking to leave the single market and the
:50:27. > :50:31.customs union? Elsewhere it says we will end freedom of movement. You
:50:32. > :50:35.cannot be a member of the single market and not accept freedom of
:50:36. > :50:42.movement so it is quite clear. John McDonnell the shadow, -- and flower
:50:43. > :50:47.has also been clear. They said they would leave the single market.
:50:48. > :50:51.Several people have said it could include staying in the single
:50:52. > :50:57.market. The Labour position is a movable feast and they want to
:50:58. > :51:03.detain as free as possible trade with the EU and it is on a spectrum.
:51:04. > :51:09.My problem with the conservative position as they have a load of red
:51:10. > :51:12.lines, for example must end eg see jurisdiction, which gives you all
:51:13. > :51:17.sorts of things around the European Arrest Warrant. They have said we
:51:18. > :51:20.will leave the customs union and the single market. Then you look at
:51:21. > :51:27.things like Northern Ireland and think what should we do? On the
:51:28. > :51:31.front benches you have quoted, Barry Gardner on this programme the Labour
:51:32. > :51:35.frontbencher said if there were to be a reformed membership of the
:51:36. > :51:38.single market, he did not think that would happen, but if they were to
:51:39. > :51:43.change the rules completely then they might consider it. To be clear
:51:44. > :51:46.it says on the Labour manifesto that they will be leaving the single
:51:47. > :51:54.market and they will end freedom of movement. It does not say leave the
:51:55. > :51:58.single market. By ending freedom of movement you have to leave the
:51:59. > :52:03.single market. Pierced armour is beginning to talk about perhaps
:52:04. > :52:10.there is an arrangement of talking within the customs union, isn't that
:52:11. > :52:16.sensible? At the same time he talks about having free trade of the the
:52:17. > :52:23.EU. You cannot set up these new free trade deals if you are part of the
:52:24. > :52:27.customs union. As King for a mandate on Brexit as they went into the
:52:28. > :52:32.general election they lost their majority. They have lost that
:52:33. > :52:38.mandate, haven't they? The election in some ways was not about Brexit,
:52:39. > :52:43.it was about other issues like public services and so-called
:52:44. > :52:48.austerity, it was not really a Brexit election. That is how it was
:52:49. > :52:54.built and that is how Theresa May wanted it to be viewed. Have they
:52:55. > :52:59.not lost the mandate for the Brexit she outlined? I do not think so.
:53:00. > :53:05.People voted for the Labour Party which pretty much wanted a clean
:53:06. > :53:08.full Brexit. You say the Parliamentary arithmetic has changed
:53:09. > :53:15.so what are you expecting those MPs to do, to vote down every piece of
:53:16. > :53:20.Brexit legislation that comes into the House of Commons? No. I think
:53:21. > :53:25.they will scrutinise it. The exact positions we are yet to see. It is
:53:26. > :53:29.not one Big Bang. You have a separate thing on the customs union
:53:30. > :53:33.because the government said it is so complicated we have to give it
:53:34. > :53:36.proper Parliamentary time for scrutiny so there will be a whole
:53:37. > :53:40.load of discussion about that customs union. Things like a border
:53:41. > :53:44.between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, how do you get
:53:45. > :53:49.around that? It is positive that will be a lot of time to scrutinise
:53:50. > :53:55.these things rather than having one single possession of we must do
:53:56. > :54:02.this. I genuinely do not know why might the numbers are. Nicky Morgan,
:54:03. > :54:08.a remain campaigner... As were many Tory MPs... Exactly. I think 185
:54:09. > :54:13.last time. It is probably gone down a little bit given the changes. It
:54:14. > :54:19.is all to play for. We are yet to see what there is a majority for. No
:54:20. > :54:24.deal is better than a bad deal is out the window. Particularly because
:54:25. > :54:28.of the DUP and others. Transitional deal is very interesting. That was
:54:29. > :54:33.not mentioned at all in the Queen's Speech. The length of that than the
:54:34. > :54:38.terms will be interesting. Do you think no deal is better than a bad
:54:39. > :54:44.deal has gone? I do not think so. You cannot go in seeing your --
:54:45. > :54:53.unless you say you are prepared to walk away if you do not get the deal
:54:54. > :54:56.you want. Since the election I am pleased with the more constructive
:54:57. > :55:02.consensual torn from both sides. Do you think no deal is better than a
:55:03. > :55:06.bad deal? Yes. You think it would be better to come out of the cannot get
:55:07. > :55:13.the deal we want and go onto World Trade Organisation deals? Yes. You
:55:14. > :55:17.would not go into a negotiation... Why do you think it is better to
:55:18. > :55:24.leave without a deal than have a bad deal? If the EU said the bill for
:55:25. > :55:31.leaving is not 100 billion euros, it is 200 billion... You would pay 100
:55:32. > :55:37.billion? No, but of it was 200 billion I would walk away. What
:55:38. > :55:42.should it be? You have to look at the whole range, from the bill to
:55:43. > :55:47.freedom of movement to the role of the City of London to the trade
:55:48. > :55:51.deal... You would be prepared to pay a reasonably high price to get
:55:52. > :55:56.exactly the same sort of benefits David Davis talked about when we
:55:57. > :56:03.leave the single market? Yes. You cannot put a figure on it. It does
:56:04. > :56:09.not sound like your viewers are that far apart. Even friction and border
:56:10. > :56:14.trade. He wants the same thing as you. He is saying we have to leave
:56:15. > :56:21.single market. Is that not what the referendum said? People voted on
:56:22. > :56:24.remaining or leaving the EU. People claiming they knew precisely what
:56:25. > :56:34.everything got person voted for a... I have the gift for Matthew Elliott,
:56:35. > :56:40.a reminder of what people voted for, a bus seeing ?350 million a week,
:56:41. > :56:44.because that is what you and your colleagues still people who did get
:56:45. > :56:50.back into this country for the NHS and other priorities, so making
:56:51. > :56:57.assumptions... Have we seen the 350 million? Are you going to put that
:56:58. > :57:03.in the bin? What has happened to the claim? Many people voted on the
:57:04. > :57:09.basis they might get ?350 million for the NHS. Everyone involved,
:57:10. > :57:14.myself, Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, have been clear when we get the
:57:15. > :57:18.Brexit dividend from leaving we would like to see more money for the
:57:19. > :57:23.NHS. Is that something you are going to lobby government for? Yes. You
:57:24. > :57:29.might get that money going to the NHS. We have seen a drop in the
:57:30. > :57:35.number of people applying to be nurses here. Perhaps we should be it
:57:36. > :57:39.once we have left the EU and it is done and dusted how much extra money
:57:40. > :57:42.there has been for the NHS. I would suggest there will be less not more
:57:43. > :57:45.with the economy going how it is going.
:57:46. > :57:47.Now it's time for the answer to our quiz.
:57:48. > :57:49.Let's remind ourselves of Question Time last night.
:57:50. > :57:58.The question was - what happened next?
:57:59. > :58:10.David Dimbleby rightly asked him to leave the audience.
:58:11. > :58:15.Because he just has to go on for longer if you shout out.
:58:16. > :58:18.So you might as well keep quiet and hear what he has to say.
:58:19. > :58:20.Do we want more instability in this country?
:58:21. > :58:24.I think you ought to leave, you know.
:58:25. > :58:41.The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now.
:58:42. > :58:43.Andrew will be back on Sunday on BBC One at 11am
:58:44. > :58:47.And I'll be back here on BBC Two on Monday at midday
:58:48. > :59:14.A defenceless man killed in cold blood by your hand.