:00:39. > :00:42.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:43. > :00:48.Theresa May has just done a deal with the Democratic Unionist Party
:00:49. > :00:51.for support in key parliamentary votes, at the cost of ?1 billion.
:00:52. > :00:56.Every sample of cladding tested so far from England's tower blocks
:00:57. > :01:03.How could regulation have failed so badly?
:01:04. > :01:06.Theresa May said it was a "fair and generous offer" on the rights
:01:07. > :01:09.of EU citizens in the UK after Brexit - EU
:01:10. > :01:13.Will they be any more impressed when they see
:01:14. > :01:19.Jeremy Corbyn gets the rock star treatment at Glastonbury,
:01:20. > :01:23.but will he get as warm a welcome from his own MPs after saying that
:01:24. > :01:25.he'd scrap Britain's nuclear deterrent if he became Prime
:01:26. > :01:38.All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole
:01:39. > :01:40.of the programme today, two MPs who can draw
:01:41. > :01:45.an audience twice the size of Jeremy Corbyn's, just
:01:46. > :01:50.by appearing on the Daily Politics programme.
:01:51. > :01:53.Rock stars in your own right on Daily Politics!
:01:54. > :01:54.Former Labour minister, and redoubtable chair
:01:55. > :01:56.of the Public Accounts Committee, Margaret Hodge.
:01:57. > :01:59.And former Welsh Secretary and Conservative MP, Stephen Crabb.
:02:00. > :02:02.First this afternoon, in the last hour or so Theresa May
:02:03. > :02:04.has concluded a deal with the Democratic Unionist party
:02:05. > :02:06.on a so-called confidence and supply agreement,
:02:07. > :02:08.in which the Northern Irish party will support
:02:09. > :02:15.The Prime Minister needs the party's MPs after failing to win an overall
:02:16. > :02:25.Let's hear what DUP leader Arlene Foster had to say earlier in Downing
:02:26. > :02:27.Street. Today, we have reached an agreement
:02:28. > :02:31.with the Conservative Party on support for Government
:02:32. > :02:35.in Parliament. This agreement will operate
:02:36. > :02:38.to deliver a stable Government in the United Kingdom's national
:02:39. > :02:41.interest at this vital time. Throughout these discussions,
:02:42. > :02:44.our guiding principle has been our commitment to acting
:02:45. > :02:47.in the national interest, in accordance with our shared
:02:48. > :02:50.objectives for strenthening In concluding this wide-ranging
:02:51. > :02:58.agreement, we have done so on the basis of advancing
:02:59. > :03:02.the security of our nation, building prosperity for all,
:03:03. > :03:05.and supporting an exit from the European Union
:03:06. > :03:09.that benefits all parts The details of our agreement
:03:10. > :03:24.and future working arrangements will be
:03:25. > :03:31.published in full. Let's talk to the BBC's
:03:32. > :03:33.Northern Ireland political editor, Mark Devenport, who is in Downing
:03:34. > :03:39.Street. It took a while but we finally had
:03:40. > :03:43.the deal? Obviously there was some haggling
:03:44. > :03:48.that went on behind the scenes, whatever the Government's original
:03:49. > :03:50.offer was, the DUP probably asking for more and ending up somewhere in
:03:51. > :03:56.the middle. The DUP will feel they have a good deal in terms of getting
:03:57. > :04:00.?1 billion in extra money and flexibility over the use of half ?1
:04:01. > :04:04.billion from a previous agreement which Treasury rules had made it
:04:05. > :04:07.difficult to spend, I don't think they necessarily got everything they
:04:08. > :04:13.were seeking in terms of changing tax rate in Northern Ireland, only a
:04:14. > :04:16.commitment to secure things like air passenger duty and VAT on tourism in
:04:17. > :04:20.Northern Ireland. But they have now provided what the
:04:21. > :04:27.Government needed, a workable majority on key votes?
:04:28. > :04:30.Absolutely, and what they are offering is to essentially keep
:04:31. > :04:35.Theresa May's Government in business, they will support it in
:04:36. > :04:40.relation to the budget, votes of confidence, any vote related to the
:04:41. > :04:43.UK's exit from the European Union because of course they were
:04:44. > :04:48.Brexiteers during the referendum campaign, and also in relation to
:04:49. > :04:51.any legislation brought forward as regards national security. In terms
:04:52. > :04:54.of other matters, they have withheld the right to vote according to
:04:55. > :04:59.whatever they decide as parliament comes up.
:05:00. > :05:02.We are looking at pictures of the documents being signed, Jeffrey
:05:03. > :05:06.Donaldson to the DUP, Gavin Williamson there for the
:05:07. > :05:16.Conservatives, shaking hands on that deal. The Prime Minister not looking
:05:17. > :05:18.entirely comfortable, I have to say, when you look at the choreography.
:05:19. > :05:20.The DUP have, to some extent, extracted a high price, haven't
:05:21. > :05:23.they? Yes, I think they always promised that if they held the
:05:24. > :05:25.balance of power in a hung parliament they would look to gain
:05:26. > :05:29.influence and extra resources for Northern Ireland and that is what
:05:30. > :05:34.they have done. The big question now is, what will the impact of this be
:05:35. > :05:39.on the situation back at Stormont, where the power-sharing executive
:05:40. > :05:43.does not exist, will be as large as from Westminster be enough to
:05:44. > :05:46.display to Sinn Fein that they should get into the power-sharing
:05:47. > :05:50.executive with the DUP or will they see this as quite separate or
:05:51. > :05:52.insufficient? There have already been Keith --
:05:53. > :05:57.accusations that the Government will no longer be an honest broker in
:05:58. > :06:00.trying to restore the power-sharing arrangement but Arlene Foster was at
:06:01. > :06:05.pains, I thought, when she gave her statement to say that the money they
:06:06. > :06:09.have got for the Government will be for all people in Northern Ireland,
:06:10. > :06:12.to benefit everyone in Northern Ireland, signalling strongly to the
:06:13. > :06:17.nationalist community that this is for everybody?
:06:18. > :06:21.Yes, there are elements of this which will undoubtedly be welcomed
:06:22. > :06:26.by many people in Northern Ireland, the York Street interchange in
:06:27. > :06:30.Belfast, there have been lots of delays of work, I imagine
:06:31. > :06:35.nationalists and unionists will be happy if they can go more smoothly
:06:36. > :06:39.through that exchange, and also superfast broadband, another element
:06:40. > :06:43.of the package. There is not a lot of politics in the deal that I have
:06:44. > :06:46.seen so far, although there is a reference to the new Legacy
:06:47. > :06:50.institutions which had been created to tackle the history of the
:06:51. > :06:56.troubles, and that reference is the Conservatives and DUP don't want
:06:57. > :07:00.those bodies to, in any unfair way, pursue military veterans and former
:07:01. > :07:03.members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, so that is the two
:07:04. > :07:15.parties probably saying something Sinn Fein would have doubts
:07:16. > :07:19.about but so far that is the only element I can see that might be
:07:20. > :07:22.partisan in relation to the deal. Finally, on policy commitments,
:07:23. > :07:24.there has been some talk that the triple lock for pensioners will now
:07:25. > :07:26.be retained, and manifesto commitment by the Conservatives but,
:07:27. > :07:28.because of the result, there was discussion it might not stay, and
:07:29. > :07:31.also Winter Fuel Payments for all pensioners, have you heard that both
:07:32. > :07:35.of those things now will remain? Yes, that was bailed out by Arlene
:07:36. > :07:38.Foster in her comments a few moments ago in Downing Street, she said the
:07:39. > :07:42.triple lock will stay, no means testing of the winter fuel
:07:43. > :07:47.allowance, interesting that both of those commitments were made by the
:07:48. > :07:54.DUP in their manifesto... But is that for Northern Ireland or
:07:55. > :07:56.the whole of the UKAs far as I understand it, having a quick look
:07:57. > :08:00.here, she says that there will be no change, yes, I will double-check
:08:01. > :08:04.that, no change across the United Kingdom, so what they are saying is
:08:05. > :08:07.they are unionists, they believe in the United Kingdom and they have
:08:08. > :08:11.looked for things in relation to the whole of the United Kingdom and they
:08:12. > :08:14.have stuck by their manifesto, and obviously the difference between a
:08:15. > :08:18.confidence and supply deal and formal coalition is that they have
:08:19. > :08:22.the benefit of being able to stick to some things they said in their
:08:23. > :08:28.manifesto and not necessarily trade things away, so that is something
:08:29. > :08:30.where they will claim an achievement not just in Northern Ireland but
:08:31. > :08:31.across the UK. Thank you very much.
:08:32. > :08:33.We're joined now from Belfast by the former
:08:34. > :08:35.Democratic Unionist Party assembly member, Alistair Ross.
:08:36. > :08:42.Your reaction to the deal that has been announced today? I think it is
:08:43. > :08:45.a good deal for Northern Ireland, the DUP were clear when they entered
:08:46. > :08:49.the discussions it would be for the benefit of Northern Ireland. ?1
:08:50. > :08:53.billion per Northern Ireland in terms of infrastructure projects,
:08:54. > :08:57.broadband, that is positive, more money for health and education, that
:08:58. > :09:01.is clearly positive, but I also think people will be pleased they
:09:02. > :09:04.have been able to influence wider Government policy, as you have been
:09:05. > :09:09.talking about, the triple lock repentance, Winter Fuel Payments,
:09:10. > :09:13.also in terms of defence spending and of course the fact they are
:09:14. > :09:16.allowing the Government to be formed, giving an element of
:09:17. > :09:19.stability. One of the most important thing is, Northern Ireland point of
:09:20. > :09:24.view is those commitments to spending are within the first two
:09:25. > :09:28.years, so any concerned there would have been that the parliament will
:09:29. > :09:33.not last five years is helped by the DUP making sure that those economic
:09:34. > :09:37.commitments are made in the first two years parliament. So perhaps you
:09:38. > :09:41.have the DUP to thank for getting the Government back on its tracks,
:09:42. > :09:45.it now has a workable majority. Did you ever think you would see
:09:46. > :09:50.yourself in a position where you had to rely on Ulster Unionist Party for
:09:51. > :09:52.working in Government? It is not the outcome any of us wanted when we
:09:53. > :09:58.embarked on the campaign nine weeks ago but the electorate have given
:09:59. > :10:01.their verdict, they delivered a hung parliament, they cast their votes
:10:02. > :10:05.and this is the parliament we have got. If you look at countries across
:10:06. > :10:19.Europe which are more used to this, it happens regularly,
:10:20. > :10:23.perhaps we are not used to it in Britain but it is the cost of doing
:10:24. > :10:26.business, we need a Government with a functioning majority in the House
:10:27. > :10:28.of Commons. My party does not have that majority so we do a deal with a
:10:29. > :10:31.minor party. The Liberal Democrats did not want to discuss coalition,
:10:32. > :10:33.Plaid Cymru didn't, so we are doing a deal with the Ulster Unionist
:10:34. > :10:36.Party you didn't have to, you could have the country as a minority
:10:37. > :10:39.Government, you would not have had to pay ?1 billion, which many will
:10:40. > :10:42.say is too high a price to pay for the support of the Ulster Unionist
:10:43. > :10:45.Party. If it allows us as the Government to do things other than
:10:46. > :10:50.just delivering on Brexit, which is really important, but if it gives us
:10:51. > :10:52.the opportunity of passing legislation, to renew
:10:53. > :10:56.infrastructure, develop and improve schools and education policies, then
:10:57. > :10:58.we will be looking back saying, actually, that was well worth it for
:10:59. > :11:15.the taxpayer and the United Kingdom.
:11:16. > :11:18.There is every indication it will be a slimmed down legislative programme
:11:19. > :11:20.because it will be difficult to get things who like the bills you
:11:21. > :11:22.outline. Margaret Hodge, the DUP has managed to extract from the
:11:23. > :11:24.Government commitment to keeping Winter Fuel Payments for pensioners
:11:25. > :11:26.and the triple pension, both of which were in the Labour manifesto.
:11:27. > :11:28.Another thing Theresa May in estimated, skilled negotiators are
:11:29. > :11:32.very practice that, she announced she had got a deal with incredible,
:11:33. > :11:38.48 hours, and it has taken her much longer to -- much longer than to
:11:39. > :11:42.reach the deal with the Liberal Democrats. I'm pleased they have got
:11:43. > :11:46.back the rights for pensioners but I will say two things, ?1 billion for
:11:47. > :11:50.Northern Ireland, what will that do to Scotland, north-east England,
:11:51. > :11:55.Wales, places like that? And you said something which rather caught
:11:56. > :12:04.my ear, which was the deal that was done around the agreement, and the
:12:05. > :12:08.implications there. Is this going to be self-contained? Will we see steps
:12:09. > :12:11.starting to undermine the Northern Ireland agreement? And Chris Patten
:12:12. > :12:16.said yesterday this is the beginnings of the nasty party back
:12:17. > :12:19.in the Tory party. Let's pick up on the power-sharing agreement, because
:12:20. > :12:24.there have been reports, I don't think it has been confirmed, that
:12:25. > :12:25.the ?1 billion would in some way be conditional on restoring
:12:26. > :12:35.power-sharing. I don't think that it is, but it
:12:36. > :12:39.will provide incentive, if you have a Northern Ireland executive with
:12:40. > :12:42.additional money, it would be in the interest of all political parties
:12:43. > :12:50.there to have a say in how it is spent. If Shane -- if Sinn Fein are
:12:51. > :12:54.not willing to get back involved, then they would have no say. The
:12:55. > :12:59.exchange project will not cost all of the money that has been earmarked
:13:00. > :13:02.for investment for infrastructure projects, there is money that could
:13:03. > :13:05.be spent in other places, and I would have thought Sinn Fein would
:13:06. > :13:10.want to have some influence En-Nahda. The only way they can do
:13:11. > :13:17.that is get back into government. They don't want to see Arlene Foster
:13:18. > :13:22.as First Minister, they compared her to a crocodile that keeps asking for
:13:23. > :13:24.more. Do you think that will help bring the two sides together?
:13:25. > :13:29.Politicians in Northern Ireland have many issues dividing them, but the
:13:30. > :13:35.one thing that should unite them is trying to get investments, getting
:13:36. > :13:38.more money to tackle the waiting list in the health system, to tackle
:13:39. > :13:43.educational underachievement, and when it comes down to the last 24
:13:44. > :13:47.hours of negotiations here to get devolution back up and running,
:13:48. > :13:51.these are the most significant aspects. We have not had time to
:13:52. > :13:57.absorb this, but the money is to be spent within two years, so does that
:13:58. > :14:01.mean a general election at the end of two years? Of course it doesn't
:14:02. > :14:07.mean that. But does it mean more money? It means there is every
:14:08. > :14:10.incentive for the politicians in Northern Ireland to get back to
:14:11. > :14:16.Stormont to work out how to spend the money... But in two years they
:14:17. > :14:22.will be asking for more money from the Government here. Well, let's see
:14:23. > :14:26.what happens. Even if the Theresa May government lasts over this
:14:27. > :14:30.coming period, it won't last more than two years. We're going to talk
:14:31. > :14:31.to Damian Green later in the programme, but for now thank you
:14:32. > :14:33.very much. The question for today
:14:34. > :14:36.is which of these members of the House of Lords
:14:37. > :14:47.is the odd one out? At the end of the show
:14:48. > :14:50.we'll see if Stephen and Margaret No idea! I will be impressed if you
:14:51. > :14:58.do! Brno. Now, over the weekend residents
:14:59. > :15:01.in Camden were evacuated from their homes in high-rise
:15:02. > :15:04.buildings which have failed fire safety tests following the fire
:15:05. > :15:07.at Grenfell Tower two weeks ago. So what do we know so
:15:08. > :15:09.far about the safety Last week, the Government
:15:10. > :15:12.started assessing So far, they have tested 60
:15:13. > :15:18.buildings in 14 council areas, all of which have failed
:15:19. > :15:22.the fire-safety tests. The aluminium composite material,
:15:23. > :15:24.or ACM, panels were fitted during a recent ?10 million
:15:25. > :15:27.refurbishment of Grenfell Tower to These cladding panels have a foam
:15:28. > :15:35.core made of polyethylene, surrounded by two sheets
:15:36. > :15:40.of aluminium, which is flammable. Official building regulations
:15:41. > :15:43.recommend that only non-combustible cores are used on buildings
:15:44. > :15:49.over 18 metres tall. There is also an air gap
:15:50. > :15:54.behind these panels to allow moisture to evaporate,
:15:55. > :15:57.but safety experts say this may have caused
:15:58. > :15:58.a chimney effect in directing the flames
:15:59. > :16:04.up the building. installed between panels,
:16:05. > :16:10.but it is unclear whether these barriers were fitted
:16:11. > :16:13.in Grenfell Tower. In addition, Grenfell was not fitted
:16:14. > :16:17.with a sprinkler system during the refurbishment,
:16:18. > :16:21.although there is no legal requirement for local authorities
:16:22. > :16:25.to install one in older buildings. And the Housing Minister Alok Sharma
:16:26. > :16:28.was on BBC Breakfast this morning. We have put in place
:16:29. > :16:33.a very clear process to make sure with a particular type of
:16:34. > :16:43.aluminium cladding are tested. We have test facilities that
:16:44. > :16:47.are able to test 100 samples a day, and that can be
:16:48. > :16:48.extended if required. And we're making sure that as soon
:16:49. > :16:52.as we find out that a building has failed and has got cladding
:16:53. > :16:54.which is noncompliant, immediately the local
:16:55. > :16:55.authority is informed, and they go to the building
:16:56. > :17:00.and do the right checks. And clearly, as you have just said,
:17:01. > :17:02.in the case of Camden, where it wasn't just cladding
:17:03. > :17:04.but there were multiple other failures
:17:05. > :17:06.when it came to fire safety, I have nothing but admiration
:17:07. > :17:10.for the way that people have dealt with that who've been
:17:11. > :17:12.affected by this. We're joined now
:17:13. > :17:14.from Broadcasting House by the BBC's home affairs
:17:15. > :17:25.correspondent Tom Symonds. Welcome to the Daily Politics, how
:17:26. > :17:30.can it be that every sample that has been tested so far has failed? Well,
:17:31. > :17:34.this is a complicated business. Just to give you a bit of the background,
:17:35. > :17:39.all of these refurbishments are signed off under the building
:17:40. > :17:42.regulations, and they actually state, I think slightly differently
:17:43. > :17:47.to what you reported just then, any cladding used as to be of limited
:17:48. > :17:52.combustibility, not noncombustible. So the kind of cladding involved and
:17:53. > :17:55.Grenfell Tower was legal under the building regulations. Having said
:17:56. > :17:58.that, those regulations are quite complex. The concern is that all of
:17:59. > :18:02.those samples will have been effectively passed by the building
:18:03. > :18:06.regulations, and now they are failing this new test. The question
:18:07. > :18:12.is why. It is quite possible the test is much more tough than the
:18:13. > :18:16.sorts of certification processes that the cladding goes through
:18:17. > :18:21.before it is allowed to be used, and that is a testing regime that goes
:18:22. > :18:24.back decades. As you say, there is perhaps now a new testing regime
:18:25. > :18:28.that the cladding has failed, but because none of it had been tested
:18:29. > :18:35.before it had been fitted because it was deemed OK the last time around.
:18:36. > :18:38.That's right. Just to give you one example, we understand the way that
:18:39. > :18:42.the testing has been done in the past is to effectively test the heat
:18:43. > :18:47.resistance to the aluminium surface of the cladding, so the side of the
:18:48. > :18:52.cladding. Now, if you try to test the edge of it, where the plastic
:18:53. > :18:56.bits that is the sandwich filler, if you like, is exposed, then it is
:18:57. > :19:00.much more likely to burn, and it is possible these new tests are testing
:19:01. > :19:04.that edge, rather than testing the bit where the aluminium is
:19:05. > :19:09.protecting the middle bit of the sandwich. It is complicated, as you
:19:10. > :19:13.say, but it cannot just be about cladding. I know there is a lot of
:19:14. > :19:17.focus there, but we have talked about sprinklers, how much of a
:19:18. > :19:21.difference would that have made? It is not going to be just about the
:19:22. > :19:25.cladding, that is pretty certain. Some experts are suggesting that the
:19:26. > :19:28.design of the cladding is as dumb around the tower had a part to play,
:19:29. > :19:35.creating a chimney effect that you talked. I think that will be
:19:36. > :19:39.highlighted and more in the weeks to come. A sprinkler system turns a
:19:40. > :19:42.building not into a passive fire safety system, where effectively the
:19:43. > :19:46.fire burns out in one flat and doesn't spread, that is the theory,
:19:47. > :19:49.but it enables you to put the sprinkler on in one flat and
:19:50. > :19:54.evacuate the whole building, or even evacuate the whole building with the
:19:55. > :19:57.system going. So it is a different type of safety system. But according
:19:58. > :20:03.to the information the Government has given to councils, they say if
:20:04. > :20:07.you have cladding that is questionable, which may burning
:20:08. > :20:11.fires, if you also have a sprinkler system, you have a lot less to worry
:20:12. > :20:16.about. I am paraphrasing, but that is the advice to councils at the
:20:17. > :20:21.moment. Tom Symonds, thanks very much for bringing us up to date, we
:20:22. > :20:25.will be hearing more about it as the inquiry gets under way. Every single
:20:26. > :20:30.piece of cladding taken for testing has failed, is this a catastrophic
:20:31. > :20:31.failure of building and health and safety regulations will be years?
:20:32. > :20:47.Absolutely. I mean, it is shocking that every single
:20:48. > :20:49.piece of cladding has come back as a fail. As we have heard, this is
:20:50. > :20:51.extremely complicated, but nobody should lose sight of the human
:20:52. > :20:54.element of this. We have the poorest people in the country in tower
:20:55. > :20:57.blocks that are clad with a material that can go up in flames. There is a
:20:58. > :20:59.reason why we have appointed a public inquiry to investigate what
:21:00. > :21:03.happened, but we can all predict that when we get to the end of it
:21:04. > :21:05.and find out what has gone on over a period of years in different parts
:21:06. > :21:12.of the country, we will never go back to doing things how they were.
:21:13. > :21:15.In terms of evacuating residents, we have heard numerous stories, not
:21:16. > :21:24.just from Camden but councils that have decided not to, do you supplies
:21:25. > :21:28.with councils who just say that they have to get residents out of towers
:21:29. > :21:33.that may be at risk? I think Camden council must have had really good
:21:34. > :21:37.reasons for deciding to start a evacuate people at 8:30 on a Friday
:21:38. > :21:42.night, not an easy decision to take, and we don't know the detail, but
:21:43. > :21:46.clearly a number of factors at work there, and the advice must have been
:21:47. > :21:51.pretty overpowering. What we are witnessing is two things, if you
:21:52. > :21:55.stand back from it, the Labour government is probably as guilty as
:21:56. > :22:00.the Conservative government, we have all run away from regulation, tried
:22:01. > :22:03.to deregulate, run away from inspection, and we have created,
:22:04. > :22:08.clearly, dangerous structures. Every single one phone to be dangerous,
:22:09. > :22:13.that is shocking, and what this has come to symbolise for me is the
:22:14. > :22:18.inequality in society, that you put poor people into housing, and you
:22:19. > :22:21.don't spend enough money on ensuring their safety and well-being, and
:22:22. > :22:25.that is a scandal that we should never allowed to recur. Do you think
:22:26. > :22:30.it is right to point the finger of blame at anyone until we know the
:22:31. > :22:34.full facts? No, we need to know the full facts. Kensington and Chelsea,
:22:35. > :22:39.if we can go back to the initial one, the idea that money was an
:22:40. > :22:43.issue is not the case, they have 250 million or something and balance,
:22:44. > :22:49.they gave their richest residents, those paying the highest council
:22:50. > :22:54.tax, ?100 back as a bride in the run-up to the election. They had the
:22:55. > :22:58.money to make sure... Sorry, some of the claims that we heard in the
:22:59. > :23:02.hours and days following the tragedy, from some in your own
:23:03. > :23:05.party, certainly some of the more aggressive online supporters of your
:23:06. > :23:13.party, were pointing the finger at Conservatives, as capitalism, all
:23:14. > :23:17.kinds of reasons. I don't go into that, Steve! You have admitted that
:23:18. > :23:20.the Labour run councils have, for decades, from the test we have been
:23:21. > :23:26.carrying out, have been using the same kind of cladding. We need to
:23:27. > :23:31.show a bit of humility, let's not engage in... I think the Labour
:23:32. > :23:35.government, I am not blaming the councils, I think both the Labour
:23:36. > :23:38.government, the coalition government and the Conservative government have
:23:39. > :23:42.prioritised money-saving and deregulation, and I think in
:23:43. > :23:51.Kensington what was particularly distressing was any suggestion that
:23:52. > :23:55.money was an issue, it was obviously not. Let's listen to John McDonnell,
:23:56. > :23:58.who made this remark at Glastonbury. Is democracy working? It didn't work
:23:59. > :24:06.if you were a family living on the 20th floor of Grenfell Tower. Those
:24:07. > :24:11.families, those individuals, 79 so far, and there will be more, were
:24:12. > :24:17.murdered by political decisions that were taken over recent decades.
:24:18. > :24:21.APPLAUSE The decision...
:24:22. > :24:27.The decision not to build homes and to view housing has only for
:24:28. > :24:34.financial speculation, rather than for meeting a basic human need,
:24:35. > :24:39.decisions made by politicians over decades, murdered those families...
:24:40. > :24:42.Do you agree with John McDonnell saying that the victims of the fire
:24:43. > :24:48.were murdered by political decisions? I agree we should listen
:24:49. > :24:52.to the tenants, but I disagree with the language, and I think that is
:24:53. > :24:58.the language of the hard left, which is not done in my name. Should it be
:24:59. > :25:01.retracted? I think it was inappropriate. David Lammy has been
:25:02. > :25:04.talking about corporate manslaughter, and we may well have
:25:05. > :25:08.to see how the facts come out, but there may well be a case for that,
:25:09. > :25:21.but that is a very different way of doing it. When you say not in your
:25:22. > :25:24.name, the language of the hard left, they are leading and running your
:25:25. > :25:26.party, they own your party, they are your party. They don't own our
:25:27. > :25:29.party, I am expressing a different view. The Portsmouth City Council
:25:30. > :25:35.leader said John McDonnell should withdraw the comments that residents
:25:36. > :25:40.were murdered, but there is an awful lot of anger about. People on the
:25:41. > :25:43.right and the left have two feel angry about what happened in the
:25:44. > :25:48.tower block, as I said a few moments ago. It is an awful human tragedy,
:25:49. > :25:51.and people will be held to account for it when we complete the
:25:52. > :25:55.investigation, but the kind of language we have heard from the
:25:56. > :25:59.Shadow Chancellor is appalling, it achieves not think, it is all about
:26:00. > :26:04.stoking up the venom of the hard left, who wants to see Jeremy Corbyn
:26:05. > :26:11.as Prime Minister. But don't use that as an excuse to take away from
:26:12. > :26:15.the seriousness of the issues we are talking about, that was a remark
:26:16. > :26:21.made at an evening meeting somewhere... It was at Glastonbury.
:26:22. > :26:27.OK, at Glastonbury, not the most representative... Certainly very
:26:28. > :26:31.public. The point that Margaret Hodge was making is that these
:26:32. > :26:36.people did not feel they had a voice. Margaret is absolutely right.
:26:37. > :26:41.They were not listened to by people, and people will argue that tragedies
:26:42. > :26:48.like this give people a voice, sadly. And you are talking people
:26:49. > :26:50.whose command of the English language maybe was not very good,
:26:51. > :26:53.they were unsure of their own immigration status, so a lot of work
:26:54. > :26:56.needs to go on in housing estate up and down the country to make sure
:26:57. > :26:59.that tenants feel they can come forward and speak with confidence.
:27:00. > :27:02.Let's get back to our top story, that's the deal that's been
:27:03. > :27:05.concluded in the last hour or so with the Democratic Unionist Party.
:27:06. > :27:06.Let's hear what former Northern Ireland Secretary Theresa
:27:07. > :27:17.I believe that this agreement is, I think it is welcomed, it will give
:27:18. > :27:20.an important degree of stability in relation to the UK Government. I
:27:21. > :27:27.believe that there is nothing in it which would, you know, make it
:27:28. > :27:32.difficult for the Stormont institutions to be re-established. I
:27:33. > :27:35.am sure that James Brokenshire, the Secretary of State, and his team
:27:36. > :27:40.will continue to work really hard with the Northern Ireland parties to
:27:41. > :27:48.get the devolved institutions up and running again.
:27:49. > :27:51.We're joined now by the First Secretary of State, Damian Green.
:27:52. > :27:58.You must be relieved to have the DUP on-board for your workable majority?
:27:59. > :28:04.People will be more confident the Government can get its legislative
:28:05. > :28:07.programme through because the deal covers legislation like budgets,
:28:08. > :28:14.national security legislation and of course the Queen's Speech. But also
:28:15. > :28:17.the deal means that the support we give in to Northern Ireland, I hope
:28:18. > :28:21.and expect, will make it easier to conclude a deal that allows the
:28:22. > :28:24.parties to get back to proper democratic devolved Government,
:28:25. > :28:28.which we all want to see in Northern Ireland. Before we get to
:28:29. > :28:32.power-sharing, let's talk about the deal and the amount of money that
:28:33. > :28:36.you had to give the DUP in order for them to agree to a confidence and
:28:37. > :28:40.supply arrangement. ?1 billion is a lot of money. That is a high price
:28:41. > :28:51.they have extracted from your Government. It is the sort of money
:28:52. > :28:53.that has been used before to try and push the peach process and
:28:54. > :28:56.devolution process forward in 2014 when the Stormont agreement was
:28:57. > :28:59.signed, actually there was a package of ?2 billion. We all know Northern
:29:00. > :29:04.Ireland has particular needs and problems because of its history and
:29:05. > :29:07.a lot of this money is infrastructure spending and 30 years
:29:08. > :29:11.because of the troubled infrastructure spending in Northern
:29:12. > :29:14.Ireland was heavily and rightly devoted to security and policing so
:29:15. > :29:19.there are other areas... If it was such a reasonable thing to do, why
:29:20. > :29:22.has it taken so long? It took a lot longer than the coalition agreement
:29:23. > :29:29.between the Liberal Democrat and Conservative 's, which took took
:29:30. > :29:33.five days, this has been far longer. We have been working to the time
:29:34. > :29:40.required to strike the deal. It was difficult to agree, wasn't it? All
:29:41. > :29:45.agreements take time. Five days for Nick Clegg and David Cameron. We
:29:46. > :29:48.wanted to do it in time for this Thursday's deadline on the
:29:49. > :29:53.devolution agreement, that is the key deadline in Northern Ireland.
:29:54. > :29:56.The key deadline was in order to get the Queen's Speech through
:29:57. > :29:59.Parliament and the House of Commons. Some people in your party suggested
:30:00. > :30:06.there was no need to strike a deal with the DUP at all, they're in
:30:07. > :30:09.their mind it would risk Jeremy Corbyn in Downing Street. There is
:30:10. > :30:14.the confidence and supply deal, which gives confidence for people to
:30:15. > :30:19.know our legislative programme will be able to get through, but there is
:30:20. > :30:23.also the extra support, the financial deal, and as I say I think
:30:24. > :30:29.that will be really helpful because that can be spent by the Northern
:30:30. > :30:33.Ireland executive, not by the DUP, by... You would have given any
:30:34. > :30:37.amount of money because otherwise you would not have been able to have
:30:38. > :30:40.a working majority to push through a legislative programme. You can spend
:30:41. > :30:43.all the time you like saying it is good to Northern Ireland, they would
:30:44. > :30:47.agree to that, that is why they have signed the deal! This was about you
:30:48. > :30:54.paying any price because you need the support. We haven't paid any
:30:55. > :30:57.price, we deliberately decided to support in specific ways for
:30:58. > :31:03.specific projects, helping people who have got mental health problems
:31:04. > :31:06.and again after the troubles that is a particular issue in Northern
:31:07. > :31:10.Ireland, just as we have said we will spend more money on mental
:31:11. > :31:14.health throughout the country, Morsi the deals as in other parts of the
:31:15. > :31:21.United Kingdom. Are you also pleased and grateful to the DUP in fact for
:31:22. > :31:24.their stance and position in these negotiations to drop cutting Winter
:31:25. > :31:29.Fuel Payments for some pensioners and maintaining the triple-lock for
:31:30. > :31:35.pensioners? We saw what happened at the election, and the Prime Minister
:31:36. > :31:38.has said subsequently, OK, we will listen to what people maybe didn't
:31:39. > :31:42.want to hear from us at the election and those are two examples where
:31:43. > :31:47.clearly people didn't want that, so we have been flexible about that.
:31:48. > :31:51.How much will it cost to keep Winter Fuel Payments for pensioners over
:31:52. > :31:57.the next few years? We don't know what the extra is, it cost about 2
:31:58. > :32:00.billion a year and because we were going to consult on the level at
:32:01. > :32:07.which we would start means testing, there isn't a baseline figure you
:32:08. > :32:10.can work from, no hard and fast cost because it wasn't going to happen
:32:11. > :32:14.this winter anyway because it would have been too late to have a
:32:15. > :32:19.consultation. You don't need to save the money any more then? We need to
:32:20. > :32:25.keep saving money, bringing the deficit down... That is not going to
:32:26. > :32:29.help, is it, it is an extra cost? One of the advantages and sometimes
:32:30. > :32:33.disadvantages of democracy, people get their say and we have to listen
:32:34. > :32:39.to what people say at elections and referendums and that is what we are
:32:40. > :32:43.doing. So austerities has gone? The idea that suddenly we have unlimited
:32:44. > :32:47.money everywhere for everything is not true. What is true is that if
:32:48. > :32:51.you have a consistently strong economy, which we have had for a
:32:52. > :32:55.number of years now, you can afford to spend more money... People will
:32:56. > :32:59.look at rising inflation, the falling pound, people will say, is
:33:00. > :33:03.the economy as good and strong as you say if wages are not keeping up
:33:04. > :33:08.with prices and the cost of living has gone up, and yet you can spend,
:33:09. > :33:10.we don't yet know, of course, an unspecified extra amount on keeping
:33:11. > :33:25.Winter Fuel Payments for wealthy pensioners? We
:33:26. > :33:27.can spend extra money because the underlying growth rate of the
:33:28. > :33:30.economy is strong enough to enable us to do so. We said at the
:33:31. > :33:33.election, we pointed out that in our spending plans we had an extra 8
:33:34. > :33:35.billion... If the economy was so strong, why did you want to make the
:33:36. > :33:38.cuts during the election campaign? Why did you feel it was a good idea
:33:39. > :33:40.to continue with austerity in this regard, the triple lock to a
:33:41. > :33:43.double-lock, cutting Winter Fuel Payments, if we have such a strong
:33:44. > :33:47.economy? All Government is a balance, you have to decide how much
:33:48. > :33:50.money you can afford to spend without loading borrowing on future
:33:51. > :33:57.generations... Which you are doing now. At the same time you want to
:33:58. > :34:01.spend as much as you can on the vital public services and on parts
:34:02. > :34:05.of the country that haven't shared in the general rising prosperity.
:34:06. > :34:10.That is what Government is, a collection of making those choices.
:34:11. > :34:13.Amber Rudd, Home Secretary, used the expression magic money tree when
:34:14. > :34:17.describing Labour's policies and she may feel that is what it was, but
:34:18. > :34:21.the Tories have now got their very own magic money tree because you are
:34:22. > :34:32.now loading future generations. If we use the bar and the measure you
:34:33. > :34:35.set during the election campaign to bring down costs and further reduce
:34:36. > :34:37.the deficit, do try and make an impact on overall debt, you are
:34:38. > :34:40.doing the exact opposite. We have a clear commitment to eliminate the
:34:41. > :34:42.deficit by the middle years of the next decade, that was what we went
:34:43. > :34:47.into the election with. The announcement today makes no
:34:48. > :34:51.difference to that, that is still our target and under all the
:34:52. > :34:59.projections of various economists, that can still be met, so we are
:35:00. > :35:06.still aiming at that target. It is not true, and I think... What is not
:35:07. > :35:09.true? That we will be able to cut the deficit without devastating
:35:10. > :35:13.cuts. The economy is not growing as fast as it was the first quarter of
:35:14. > :35:18.this year compared to last year. Inflation is going up, we have
:35:19. > :35:21.pressures on things like the cost of inflation, public sector pay,
:35:22. > :35:26.benefit levels... So you are advocating more spending as per the
:35:27. > :35:31.Labour manifesto? If it were me I would advocate not cutting the
:35:32. > :35:38.deficit as a priority. One at a time. This is why I say this is not
:35:39. > :35:42.an open, honest conversation and if it was open and honest you would
:35:43. > :35:47.say, we have got all these problems, we will put cutting the deficit on
:35:48. > :35:51.the back burner. We get criticised for not cutting the deficit faster
:35:52. > :35:57.in some quarters. George Osborne in 2010... You didn't cut it as fast as
:35:58. > :36:01.you said you were going to. We cut two thirds of the deficit over the
:36:02. > :36:05.past seven years, 100 billion off the deficit, and we have said we
:36:06. > :36:08.will take a gradual reduction in deficit, which is responsible...
:36:09. > :36:13.Isn't that putting austerities likely to the back burner here,
:36:14. > :36:17.which is what you want? I am not quarrelling with putting the deficit
:36:18. > :36:23.on the back burner. What I am quarrelling with is that there ought
:36:24. > :36:26.to be openness and honesty in these discussions on these programmes for
:36:27. > :36:30.the British people about the state of the public services, the state of
:36:31. > :36:37.the public finances, and the ability... In the election manifesto
:36:38. > :36:41.it committed to tens of billions of extra spending with no sign
:36:42. > :36:46.whatsoever... I am not the Government, Damian, you are. Can I
:36:47. > :36:50.come back to the power-sharing? You mentioned it at the beginning, how
:36:51. > :36:54.confident are you now as a result of this deal and Arlene Foster's words
:36:55. > :36:57.that this will be for all people in Northern Ireland that we will have a
:36:58. > :37:01.power-sharing executive backed instalment? I am hopeful because
:37:02. > :37:06.this is a good deal for all of Northern Ireland. We all know the
:37:07. > :37:11.history there, I am not part of the talks over there so I don't know in
:37:12. > :37:14.detail what has happened with the talks, but certainly this deal,
:37:15. > :37:19.specifically because the money is there to be spent by the Northern
:37:20. > :37:23.Ireland executive, everyone from all political persuasions in Northern
:37:24. > :37:28.Ireland can benefit from this deal and the Northern Ireland executive
:37:29. > :37:32.can decide how best to spend this money to support Northern Ireland's
:37:33. > :37:36.infrastructure across the area. This, I hope, will make a positive
:37:37. > :37:41.contribution to making sure we do get that new devolved executive in
:37:42. > :37:43.Northern Ireland. Damian Green, thank you for coming in.
:37:44. > :37:46.The Government is going to publish a 15-page document setting out more
:37:47. > :37:48.details on what rights EU citizens living in the UK
:37:49. > :37:52.That's after we got some provisional plans from Theresa May
:37:53. > :37:58.Let's take a look at what the Brexit Secretary David Davis had
:37:59. > :38:03.The main thrust of this is this actually gives an undertaking
:38:04. > :38:07.to all 3 million people in this country today, they will have
:38:08. > :38:09.rights, effectively British citizenship rights, or the same
:38:10. > :38:14.rights, as we said, and the reason we cast it that way
:38:15. > :38:16.is because we were getting a lot of stories coming back,
:38:17. > :38:18.particularly from central Europe, where people were saying,
:38:19. > :38:20."Oh, we're going to be made second-class citizens."
:38:21. > :38:26.No, that was the point, absolutely the point.
:38:27. > :38:31.David Davis there. Stephen Crabb, have you been impressed with the
:38:32. > :38:34.Government's handling of the issue? Personally speaking I would have
:38:35. > :38:39.liked to have seen the statement we had last week about the rights of EU
:38:40. > :38:42.citizens in the UK come earlier but we all knew we were going to get at
:38:43. > :38:47.this point, we all knew there was going to be a very big... You might
:38:48. > :38:50.say that but EU citizens here who are worried about their futures
:38:51. > :38:52.might not have been so confident. Theresa May was clear she regarded
:38:53. > :39:08.this as an urgent priority at the start
:39:09. > :39:11.of the Brexit negotiators, she has kept good faith by doing that and we
:39:12. > :39:13.have made that big, generous offer. I think it goes a long way to
:39:14. > :39:15.satisfying the questions but there will need to be further negotiations
:39:16. > :39:18.around some technical details and the crucial issue of whether there
:39:19. > :39:20.is a role for something like the European Court of Justice in terms
:39:21. > :39:23.of arbitrating full rights of EU citizens in the UK. Were you
:39:24. > :39:25.surprised by the chairman of the 3 million Movement, which represents
:39:26. > :39:27.the EU nationals living here, you says there is something slightly
:39:28. > :39:32.pathetic about the proposal which makes no details of the
:39:33. > :39:36.comprehensive offer tabled by the EU in their offer a little while ago? I
:39:37. > :39:40.don't agree with that, we will see the detailed this afternoon when our
:39:41. > :39:45.document gets published, but I think both the tone and substance of what
:39:46. > :39:49.the Prime Minister is laying out is correct. As I say, there will need
:39:50. > :40:11.to be further negotiation around, for example, the issue of exporting
:40:12. > :40:13.benefits, there will be tricky discussions around that, but I think
:40:14. > :40:14.the basic outline of a deal is there, I think our counterparts in
:40:15. > :40:16.Europe will quickly want to do a deal on this so I have every faith
:40:17. > :40:17.that this will be one -- this will not be one of the bigger problems of
:40:18. > :40:19.the Brexit negotiation. Everyone has said they want to do a deal and not
:40:20. > :40:19.use EU citizens as bargaining chips but the EU came forward with their
:40:20. > :40:24.own proposals for EU citizens in the UK and vice versa a couple of weeks
:40:25. > :40:27.ago. Should Theresa May have reference to that document and made
:40:28. > :40:32.it clear whether she supported their plans or not? This is a negotiation,
:40:33. > :40:36.they set out their position, we set out our position and doubt there
:40:37. > :40:40.will be negotiation to maybe meet in the middle. As I said, I think the
:40:41. > :40:45.only big area of contention will be around the issue of the European
:40:46. > :40:49.Court of Justice and what role it may have in the right of EU citizens
:40:50. > :40:54.in the UK. Margaret Hodge, this now seems to be certainly the beginning
:40:55. > :40:58.of a firm offer, whether you agree it is generous or not, it is a firm
:40:59. > :41:02.offer, we are now being able to judge for ourselves what is being
:41:03. > :41:05.put on the table. Do you still have worries about the rights of EU
:41:06. > :41:11.citizens that have moved here right until the triggering of Article 50?
:41:12. > :41:15.Yes, I do, and I think again the general comment was that if you
:41:16. > :41:22.think back ten weeks, everybody was very fearful, I think, worried about
:41:23. > :41:28.the nature of the negotiations. You saw Theresa May last week talking to
:41:29. > :41:34.European leaders, it was with disdain and pity. I think the power
:41:35. > :41:39.has shifted considerably and the power now lies much more with the
:41:40. > :41:42.Europeans and you could see that. My concerns are the rights of
:41:43. > :41:48.relatives, that has not been spelt out. The time frame, and the
:41:49. > :41:52.European Court. We have seen in the papers this morning that one of the
:41:53. > :41:57.ways in which Theresa May and the Government are hoping to sell this
:41:58. > :42:01.deal, saying, we are going to be really tough, any EU citizen who
:42:02. > :42:04.ends up in the criminal justice system will get deported. At the
:42:05. > :42:10.Public Accounts Committee, we looked at this issue not that long ago, and
:42:11. > :42:14.ironically when Theresa May was Home Secretary she completely failed to
:42:15. > :42:20.do anything about deporting people who had been imprisoned for
:42:21. > :42:26.misdemeanours... Because presumably she couldn't? No, she could have
:42:27. > :42:30.done. What was so shocking, Jo, I probably came on this programme to
:42:31. > :42:34.describe at the time, she was Home Secretary, she wanted to deport
:42:35. > :42:39.people who had been imprisoned, she increased... Isn't there a
:42:40. > :42:43.threshold? She increased tenfold the money she put into it, she didn't
:42:44. > :42:48.increase the number going up, worse still she let people out of prison
:42:49. > :42:52.into the community... Your party introduced the human rights... If
:42:53. > :42:55.she failed and we take what Margaret Hodge is saying at face value,
:42:56. > :42:59.because as I understood there is a threshold in terms of the crimes
:43:00. > :43:02.that have to be committed before the EU would accept their citizens
:43:03. > :43:06.coming back if they had been imprisoned, if the threshold made it
:43:07. > :43:10.so difficult then, what makes her think she will be better at it now?
:43:11. > :43:14.We all recognise we need to be better at dealing with serious
:43:15. > :43:23.criminals... But it is nothing to do with the EU if it is human rights?
:43:24. > :43:25.That is one of the issues, getting rid of really bad eggs in this
:43:26. > :43:29.country that should not be here. There are some human rights but the
:43:30. > :43:32.real issue is deep in efficiency and inability of the dysfunctional
:43:33. > :43:36.nature of our immigration system. Let's talk about one of the other
:43:37. > :43:39.things, the rights of relatives, because the European Commission
:43:40. > :43:42.published a paper on this last month and said any rights should apply to
:43:43. > :43:47.current and future family members. Do you agree?
:43:48. > :43:57.I think I do agree with it. You think? It sounds simple, the way you
:43:58. > :44:02.present it, but it isn't when you are looking at the rights that flow
:44:03. > :44:06.from residency in the UK in terms of access to health care, benefits and
:44:07. > :44:10.that kind of thing. It will be something worked out around the
:44:11. > :44:13.table. Will it be worked out soon? Obviously, it affects people and
:44:14. > :44:18.families, and people want to know what is going to happen. For
:44:19. > :44:27.example, does the minimum income rule, where you need to earn 18,006
:44:28. > :44:30.under pounds a year in order to bring a spouse from outside the EU,
:44:31. > :44:35.will that apply to EU citizens post-Brexit? -- ?18,600. We have not
:44:36. > :44:40.yet seen the document which will be published this afternoon. But do you
:44:41. > :44:44.think it should apply? The Government has announced a two year
:44:45. > :44:49.grace period, which shows a large measure of good faith on the part of
:44:50. > :44:52.the government, wanting to get this right, wanting to reassure EU
:44:53. > :44:57.citizens that we have their interests at heart. David Davis said
:44:58. > :45:01.yesterday he was pretty sure but not certain of a deal, securing a
:45:02. > :45:05.free-trade agreement with the EU, did that worry you? We should be
:45:06. > :45:10.doing everything we can to get ourselves in a position to do a
:45:11. > :45:15.deal, because the alternative is the status quo, not an option, because
:45:16. > :45:18.we voted for Brexit, and the other alternative is WTO rules, and I do
:45:19. > :45:22.not think that is a good outcome for our economy and our workers.
:45:23. > :45:28.Despite losing the election, Jeremy Corbyn has been riding high in
:45:29. > :45:30.recent weeks, and he got a rock star reception at Glastonbury, so will he
:45:31. > :45:34.use his new-found authority to cement the power of the left over
:45:35. > :45:37.the Labour Party? There will be a debate at the party conference in
:45:38. > :45:42.the autumn on whether the number of MPs needed to nominate a leadership
:45:43. > :45:46.contender should be reduced to just 5%. It is thought it would make it
:45:47. > :45:52.easier for a left-wing candidate to get elected. Let's see what the
:45:53. > :45:57.Shadow Cabinet office minister had to say about this yesterday. Is
:45:58. > :46:02.their pressure up for anyone who wants to leadership, 5% of MPs? I am
:46:03. > :46:08.not going to express a view at the present time. Why? Whenever there is
:46:09. > :46:13.a leadership election, it is important that every tendency is
:46:14. > :46:16.represented on the ballot paper, and a rule which prevents a section of
:46:17. > :46:22.the right or the left of the centre from getting on the ballot paper is
:46:23. > :46:25.a bad rule, so it is an argument for looking carefully at how we conduct
:46:26. > :46:39.leadership elections, and that debate can be had and ought to be
:46:40. > :46:45.had. Margaret Hodge, Jon Trickett sounding more or less supportive of
:46:46. > :46:49.that idea, the number of MPs needed to get a candidate on the ballot
:46:50. > :46:54.paper would be reduced, do you think it should be? No, at the end of the
:46:55. > :46:57.day, the leader of the Labour Party has to command the support of the
:46:58. > :47:02.Parliamentary Labour Party. Jeremy Corbyn has done quite well without
:47:03. > :47:07.always having that support. He has done hugely well in getting young
:47:08. > :47:10.people to vote, and people who have never voted before, but we have got
:47:11. > :47:15.a lot of challenges to form a government. The purpose of a
:47:16. > :47:19.political parties to get into government. What was interesting, I
:47:20. > :47:22.didn't hear the Jon Trickett bit, but I did hear Paul Mason on one of
:47:23. > :47:27.the programmes yesterday, talking about how Jeremy Corbyn had to
:47:28. > :47:31.consolidate his power. I thought one of the things that Jeremy Corbyn
:47:32. > :47:38.track to say was that he wanted to redo politics in a much more
:47:39. > :47:43.democratic, open weight of decision-making within the party,
:47:44. > :47:45.and he is arguing for how he can control the NEC, control leadership
:47:46. > :47:50.elections, control the party machine, that is moving away from
:47:51. > :47:55.the ethos and values that he originally said would mean a change
:47:56. > :48:00.in a way he did his politics. I hope it doesn't reflect his drinking. If
:48:01. > :48:07.it does, not a good way to go. What about the issue of Trident?
:48:08. > :48:11.Glastonbury may be the best place to air your views as well as listen to
:48:12. > :48:15.music! He said he would move to abolish Trident, or the renewal of
:48:16. > :48:22.the missile system, as soon as if he became Prime Minister. Ironically on
:48:23. > :48:27.this, I have a bit of sympathy with Jeremy Corbyn, because it is a huge
:48:28. > :48:31.amount of money... So you are against Labour Party policy? It is a
:48:32. > :48:35.lot of money to spend on the nuclear deterrent, but it is party policy,
:48:36. > :48:42.it has been through conference Aberdeen times, and he has to be
:48:43. > :48:48.committed to that as I am. -- umpteen times. I think you should
:48:49. > :48:52.abide by Labour Party policy, particularly as a leader. He has
:48:53. > :48:55.obviously got zero respect for official Labour Party policy if he's
:48:56. > :49:00.briefing Michael Eavis he will be Prime Minister in six months and get
:49:01. > :49:06.rid of Trident as soon as possible. What was interesting about that is
:49:07. > :49:09.how long is this deal going to last? Time to look at what else is coming
:49:10. > :49:13.up in the week and, we have had a week in one day pretty well today!
:49:14. > :49:15.Later this afternoon, the Prime Minister will present
:49:16. > :49:19.a detailed paper to MPs on her plan for the rights of EU citizens living
:49:20. > :49:22.Tomorrow, the First Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon,
:49:23. > :49:24.will make a speech in London about Brexit.
:49:25. > :49:28.On Wednesday, Theresa May will face Jeremy Corbyn in the first session
:49:29. > :49:30.of Prime Minister's Questions since she lost
:49:31. > :49:34.And on Thursday, MPs will vote on the Queen's Speech,
:49:35. > :49:42.between the Conservatives and the DUP.
:49:43. > :49:44.We're joined now by Anoosh Chakelian from the New Statesman
:49:45. > :49:54.Welcome to both of you, so what do you think of the deal? Well, quite
:49:55. > :49:59.interesting, I think we were expecting vast tranches of money to
:50:00. > :50:07.be shipped over the sea to Northern Ireland, we got a bit of that.
:50:08. > :50:12.Fascinating list, what we were not expecting was just how much the DUP
:50:13. > :50:18.have now ripped up UK Government policy, for example the triple lock
:50:19. > :50:23.and Winter Fuel Payments. By my primitive calculations, that could
:50:24. > :50:26.end up costing the Government ?15 billion. Damian Green has said that
:50:27. > :50:30.they do not know what it will cost over time because they had not made
:50:31. > :50:34.the calculation about which pensioners would be hit if they did
:50:35. > :50:39.take the payments away. Will that be the headline tomorrow? It could be,
:50:40. > :50:44.but we need to look at the ?1.5 billion as a down payment. We don't
:50:45. > :50:50.know how much more money the DUP are going to demand in years to come, so
:50:51. > :50:54.it could be even bigger than that 15 billion. So what about the reaction
:50:55. > :51:00.in the Conservative Party? We spoke earlier about the relief no doubt
:51:01. > :51:04.from the Tories, because they are now able, in theory, to go ahead
:51:05. > :51:11.with their legislative programme. What will it do to talk of
:51:12. > :51:15.leadership? I think it is being looked at by most Tory MPs with
:51:16. > :51:19.severe discomfort, he likes of Stephen Crabb will say, we have got
:51:20. > :51:23.to do this, but privately they will load it, because the DUP are not
:51:24. > :51:29.that type of people. But there is zero alternative, the Government
:51:30. > :51:32.needs MPs, so people like David Cameron have been quick to tweet in
:51:33. > :51:37.support of the deal that has been done, contrary to John Major, who
:51:38. > :51:45.was rather upset by the process. But a lot of private toe sucking, public
:51:46. > :51:48.false friends. What about the power-sharing agreement? If it is
:51:49. > :51:53.restored, Theresa May will be able to point to that as a success. It
:51:54. > :51:57.looks unlikely that they will reach their deadline of Thursday, because
:51:58. > :52:01.they have got so many things they disagreed on. They have not had a
:52:02. > :52:05.First Minister or deputy since January, so they have been grappling
:52:06. > :52:08.over this for a long time, and it is not getting any easier. Just because
:52:09. > :52:15.they have a bit of money coming in does not mean that Sinn Fein are
:52:16. > :52:19.suddenly going to be happy and start playing ball. The EU nationals, we
:52:20. > :52:24.will get more details about that later on, has this whole discussion
:52:25. > :52:28.been too slow about the future of EU nationals? I'm not sure if it has
:52:29. > :52:33.been too fast or too slow, and it looks a very easy interview, just
:52:34. > :52:37.let everyone stay, but when you get to the granular detail, for example,
:52:38. > :52:40.there has been an embargo and Home Office breathers this morning, but
:52:41. > :52:44.we now know a bit more, we cannot tell people until the Prime Minister
:52:45. > :52:49.stands up, but it will be more generous in spirit than came across
:52:50. > :52:52.on Friday, I think. Things like what you do with family reunions, and
:52:53. > :53:00.what sort of prisoners get deported, which was a very small little nugget
:53:01. > :53:03.that David Davis gave us. We will get more of the detail, a little bit
:53:04. > :53:06.more welcomed in Brussels, but back here it will probably turn up a few
:53:07. > :53:12.noses, because it is not what some people thought they were voting for.
:53:13. > :53:16.But it is imperative, it seems the minds of the Tory leadership, to get
:53:17. > :53:20.this done, this bit of the deal. It has been far too slow, this has
:53:21. > :53:24.become an emotional issue, because Theresa May has not done what people
:53:25. > :53:27.are calling for, 3 million people in this country have not told what
:53:28. > :53:36.their fate will be since the referendum result, and we have all
:53:37. > :53:38.of these EU leaders saying they are disappointed by what Theresa May
:53:39. > :53:40.came up with. We saw Jeremy Corbyn at Glastonbury giving a rousing
:53:41. > :53:43.speech at Glastonbury, he said these people must be part of our
:53:44. > :53:47.community, so I think the damage has been done, really. If the reaction
:53:48. > :53:51.is good from EU leaders, and you seem to imply you think it could be
:53:52. > :53:54.if it is more generous this afternoon, will there be a question
:53:55. > :53:59.of getting on with the rest of the negotiations? I think it will be
:54:00. > :54:04.warmer than from the EU leaders, I do not think they will say it is a
:54:05. > :54:07.done deal, but it must of course be remembered that it was Angela Merkel
:54:08. > :54:10.who blocked getting any early deal for six months before Brexit
:54:11. > :54:16.negotiation begun. But what the Prime Minister needs is she has to
:54:17. > :54:23.show she is able to get something out of them, or she will be gone by
:54:24. > :54:25.conference. Is that right? Not at all! Thank you very much to both of
:54:26. > :54:29.you! Here's just time before we go
:54:30. > :54:32.to find out the answer to our quiz. The question was which of these
:54:33. > :54:35.members of the House of Lords Lord Palmer, Viscount Thurso,
:54:36. > :54:47.the Marquess of Lothian, I am going to take a punt, Sandwich,
:54:48. > :54:51.because he didn't give up his... No, you are wrong!
:54:52. > :54:54.The Marquess of Lothian - the others are elected hereditary peers.
:54:55. > :54:57.Michael Ancram sits in the House of Lords as a life peer,
:54:58. > :54:59.although the Marquess of Lothian is his hereditary title.
:55:00. > :55:02.The Earl of Ancram is the only one of those hereditary peers
:55:03. > :55:04.who didn't get their seat in the House of Lords
:55:05. > :55:08.That's right, they have elections in the House of Lords.
:55:09. > :55:12.92 hereditary peers were allowed to keep their seats in the House
:55:13. > :55:15.of Lords when the rest were kicked out back in 1999, and each time
:55:16. > :55:17.one of those dies or retires, there is a by-election.
:55:18. > :55:19.The voters are fellow hereditary peers,
:55:20. > :55:22.But one Labour life peer, Lord Grocott, wants these
:55:23. > :55:24.by-elections abolished, and he joins us now
:55:25. > :55:32.Why do you want them abolished? You have answered your own question, the
:55:33. > :55:35.whole thing is ridiculous! There are 90 odd hereditary peers, these
:55:36. > :55:40.positions remain in perpetuity, and when one dies or retires, there is a
:55:41. > :55:44.by-election, and the rules of that very according to which hereditary
:55:45. > :55:50.peer has died or retired, and we had one last year where a Liberal
:55:51. > :55:54.Democrat died, and the electorate to replace him in the democratic
:55:55. > :55:58.process consisted of three Liberal Democrat hereditary peers, and there
:55:59. > :56:06.were seven candidates on the ballot paper. So twice as many candidates
:56:07. > :56:10.as you had electors! The sort of election that all politicians would
:56:11. > :56:16.like! It is a world record, and the winning candidate got all three
:56:17. > :56:21.votes. Well done! 100%, pretty good by North Korean standards! Have you
:56:22. > :56:25.got any support for this? There is tremendous support across the House,
:56:26. > :56:31.but I did the same thing last year, and two Conservative hereditary
:56:32. > :56:34.peers Billy busted it out of its further progress in Parliament, and
:56:35. > :56:38.I just hope they have got the sense not to do it again this time,
:56:39. > :56:42.because it is beyond ridiculous. Gilbert and Sullivan would not have
:56:43. > :56:46.dared write something like this, so I hope they see sense, maybe you
:56:47. > :56:50.will invite them on the programme. It is the kind of thing you can do
:56:51. > :56:55.in a private member's bill, try to get rid of a small absurdity. But it
:56:56. > :56:59.still has to be selected and supported, you have mentioned two
:57:00. > :57:05.corroded tree peers, are they really the only block? They are the
:57:06. > :57:15.overwhelming block, putting down 30 of 40 amendments before committee
:57:16. > :57:21.stage. 200 are on the list the last time I checked, and of the 200 on
:57:22. > :57:25.the official list of potential candidates, 199 are men, and there
:57:26. > :57:29.is one woman. Whatever your position is on equality, I think you would
:57:30. > :57:35.probably think that really was pretty absurd in the 21st century. A
:57:36. > :57:39.quick word from my guests, is it time for these by-elections to go?
:57:40. > :57:43.It is a bit of a ridiculous quirk, but the reason we have ended up in
:57:44. > :57:46.this place is because people have only tinkered, and rather than
:57:47. > :57:51.further tinkering, like what is being proposed, we need to sit down,
:57:52. > :57:56.a major overhaul, which will take time and probably be for a future
:57:57. > :58:04.generation. With tinkering at the edges, all worthwhile in its own
:58:05. > :58:07.right? I support Lord Grocott, it is always turkeys for Christmas when it
:58:08. > :58:13.comes to the House of Lords, you never get agreement, we have tried
:58:14. > :58:16.so often. Do the bits, get it slightly more sensible.
:58:17. > :58:19.That is absolutely right, only a small thing, but if it makes the
:58:20. > :58:23.world marginally better in the face of all the things we have to deal
:58:24. > :58:29.with, it won't take very long, let's get on with it. I must say to the
:58:30. > :58:33.viewers, it is the Marquess of Lothian, Michael Ancram, just to get
:58:34. > :58:34.the titles right, I know these things are important!
:58:35. > :58:40.That's all for today, thanks to our guests.
:58:41. > :58:42.An extremely busy and interesting news day!
:58:43. > :58:45.The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.
:58:46. > :58:47.I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big
:58:48. > :59:09.political stories of the day, do join me then, bye-bye.
:59:10. > :59:13.Across the country, 11 million people