:00:38. > :00:41.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:42. > :00:43.The government's one billion pound deal with the democratic unionist
:00:44. > :00:46.party has been called a 'bung' by its opponents, but what impact
:00:47. > :00:49.will it have on the restoration of power sharing in Northern
:00:50. > :00:56.Theresa May has outlined her plans for EU citizens living
:00:57. > :00:59.in the UK after Brexit, and the EU gives them
:01:00. > :01:04.But are the two sides as far apart as they seem?
:01:05. > :01:08.The government's controversial trade union law was designed to cut
:01:09. > :01:10.the number of strikes - so has it worked and
:01:11. > :01:24.This Iain Duncan Smith, sitting in this week... We want to hear your
:01:25. > :01:25.views... Yes, the quiet man has been turning
:01:26. > :01:28.up the volume on Radio 2 as the station gives former Tory
:01:29. > :01:31.leader Iain Duncan Smith his own show for the week -
:01:32. > :01:40.so was he any good? All that in the next hour
:01:41. > :01:42.and with us for the whole of the programme today, it's
:01:43. > :01:46.the general secretary of the Trades Union Congress, Frances O'Grady -
:01:47. > :01:48.it's the next best thing to being given your own radio show
:01:49. > :01:50.Frances, although I'm afraid we don't have much
:01:51. > :01:53.in the way of music. First today, let's talk
:01:54. > :01:57.about the deal struck yesterday between the government
:01:58. > :02:00.and the Democratic Unionist Party. The election result means that
:02:01. > :02:02.Theresa May does not have enough Conservative MPs to be sure
:02:03. > :02:06.of winning votes in Parliament and getting her business through -
:02:07. > :02:13.so, she's agreed a deal that will see an extra ?1 billion spent
:02:14. > :02:16.on the Northern Irish health service, education
:02:17. > :02:19.and infrastructure. It guarantees Mrs May the support
:02:20. > :02:22.of the DUP's 10 Mps in crucial Commons votes on Brexit,
:02:23. > :02:25.the Budget and national security as well as any confidence votes
:02:26. > :02:28.required to keep Mrs May in Downing The first secretary of state
:02:29. > :02:32.Damian Green came to the Commons This agreement delivers
:02:33. > :02:44.the certainty we need in the United Kingdom's national
:02:45. > :02:48.interest at this crucial time. This agreement means the DUP
:02:49. > :02:51.will support the Government on votes on the Queen's Speech,
:02:52. > :02:53.the budget and on legislation relating to our exit
:02:54. > :02:56.from the European Union, This is a shabby and a reckless
:02:57. > :03:06.deal, which has taken the government true cost for the future of peace
:03:07. > :03:11.in Northern Ireland could In Scotland, in Wales and other
:03:12. > :03:17.English regions of the UK, the needs are just as great,
:03:18. > :03:20.so when will the rest of the country The Government cannot be blind
:03:21. > :03:28.to the fact that this agreement does place in jeopardy their role under
:03:29. > :03:33.the Good Friday Agreement. We commit to transparency,
:03:34. > :03:36.we are very open to that, and someday I'd like to think
:03:37. > :03:39.we might publish all of the correspondence
:03:40. > :03:42.and conversations we had in 2010 with the Labour front bench,
:03:43. > :03:48.and in 2015 with the Labour front bench and, indeed,
:03:49. > :03:57.with the SNP as well. As Westminster digests news
:03:58. > :04:01.of the Conservative deal with the DUP, in Northern Ireland
:04:02. > :04:03.the political parties face a day of intensive talks aimed at reaching
:04:04. > :04:07.a deal of their own on a return They've been warned if they can't
:04:08. > :04:22.reach an agreement, direct rule We can speak to our correspondence
:04:23. > :04:28.at Stormont. There was some debate yesterday that the extra ?1 billion
:04:29. > :04:32.might be dependent on the restoration of power-sharing but
:04:33. > :04:38.that's not the case, is it? That was a question which puzzled politicians
:04:39. > :04:42.here yesterday, whether or not no executive meant no cash from
:04:43. > :04:47.Westminster but the understanding now is whatever happens here at
:04:48. > :04:51.Stormont, the money will be coming to Northern Ireland, ?1 billion in
:04:52. > :04:55.funding, that will go to health and education and also a big
:04:56. > :04:58.infrastructure project. The hope is that politicians will be back in
:04:59. > :05:02.their posts running the department here and they will decide how common
:05:03. > :05:16.is spent but they know that if it is not the case, if they can't agree a
:05:17. > :05:22.deal, that cash may well be spent by direct rule. Where are we in terms
:05:23. > :05:25.of timing for power-sharing? Time is fast running out, there is the
:05:26. > :05:30.deadline of Thursday at four o'clock, this process has been up
:05:31. > :05:33.and running now for three weeks but the first late-night engagement
:05:34. > :05:39.between Sinn Fein and the DUP happened last night. Some are saying
:05:40. > :05:43.that the talks in London is created as a distraction and prevented any
:05:44. > :05:47.momentum building up a behind the talks, that said, there was positive
:05:48. > :05:51.engagement last night, Sinn Fein and the DUP are back talking in the
:05:52. > :05:55.castle behind me, there are round table discussions pencilled in for
:05:56. > :06:04.this afternoon but the issue still remains, they have to close the gap
:06:05. > :06:11.on, all the money promised -- from Westminster won't change that. They
:06:12. > :06:14.know that there is a big pot of money out there that needs to be
:06:15. > :06:19.spent to ease some of the pressures on public services here. Give us a
:06:20. > :06:25.sense of those issues that are red lines, also the party 's sake on
:06:26. > :06:28.both sides? One of the big issues for Sinn Fein is the role of Arlene
:06:29. > :06:35.Foster, they have said they will not accept her as First Minister, while
:06:36. > :06:43.questioned secretary turn of the role in the botched renewable energy
:06:44. > :06:48.scheme. The DUP save the cost will be minimised to some extent. Whether
:06:49. > :06:52.or not Sinn Fein Quebec into an executive with Arlene Foster
:06:53. > :06:55.remains, then we have the Irish language act, Sinn Fein say it's a
:06:56. > :07:01.must for them, whereas Arlene Foster has already said that won't happen
:07:02. > :07:06.under her watch so there needs to be significant movement from the DUP on
:07:07. > :07:10.that, then we have the petition of concern which all the parties here
:07:11. > :07:15.agree needs to be reformed. This is a blocking mechanism which allows
:07:16. > :07:18.one party to stop legislation passing through, the parties say
:07:19. > :07:24.against the change because it has been abused in the past. Then we
:07:25. > :07:27.have a bill of rights to deal with. They are the essential issues which
:07:28. > :07:33.the parties need to get to the bottom of if we are to move forward.
:07:34. > :07:37.But there is no sense to get as close in on any of those issues. So
:07:38. > :07:42.we're preparing for a long day of talks which could stretch into the
:07:43. > :07:45.night, James burqa shire is go to London tomorrow the debate on the
:07:46. > :07:51.Queen's speech save of the out of the loop, he is likely to be in
:07:52. > :08:00.London on Thursday as well, so time is running out. Welcome to the
:08:01. > :08:04.programme. The Welsh First Minister said the deal kills the idea of
:08:05. > :08:07.their funding while Nicola Sturgeon has covered crabby and shameless.
:08:08. > :08:15.Are you concerned about the impact of this favouritism and would it
:08:16. > :08:19.will have on UK domestic relations? I am not concerned. Scotland and
:08:20. > :08:24.Wales over the last couple of years have themselves received a total of
:08:25. > :08:28.?1.3 billion in city deal funding, very similar to the funding Northern
:08:29. > :08:33.Ireland has just received, so these claims are not founded. Its ?1
:08:34. > :08:40.billion over roundabout three years... It's actually two years.
:08:41. > :08:47.Some are two years, some are for years, so let's say three on
:08:48. > :08:52.average. That is 0.04% of government spending. Let's keep these numbers
:08:53. > :08:57.in proportion. So study has gone out of the window. We have been told for
:08:58. > :09:00.years by coalition and successive governments that actually, the
:09:01. > :09:04.country can't afford excessive spending and yet in order to buy
:09:05. > :09:11.votes, to use the words of Carwyn Jones, you have been able to find ?1
:09:12. > :09:15.billion, as you say, for two years. Let's put it in context, we're
:09:16. > :09:19.finding ?8 billion for the NHS, ?4 billion for education announced in
:09:20. > :09:25.the manifesto so you have to keep it in proportion. I don't think you can
:09:26. > :09:29.point of this expenditure, which is proportionately not enormous, and
:09:30. > :09:36.claim it is the end of austerity, I don't think it is. So in other words
:09:37. > :09:39.austerity was a political choice, it wasn't a necessity, because we can
:09:40. > :09:43.afford these things? Measured against the scale of government
:09:44. > :09:49.spending, this is a small... More claims for them to be necessary was
:09:50. > :09:55.not an economic necessity. It was because the deficit was 11% of GDP,
:09:56. > :10:00.it's now down to 2.6 if we hadn't made that progress we would be
:10:01. > :10:04.paying 2% on a national debt interest, like Spain or Portugal or
:10:05. > :10:11.Italy and instead of interest grittiness ?46 million a year, it
:10:12. > :10:18.will be costing us 100, so it was an absolute city. Do you see this ?1
:10:19. > :10:21.billion as a down payment, Nicholas MacPherson said that how will turn
:10:22. > :10:30.out to be, the DUP will come back for more? That is Spec edition, this
:10:31. > :10:35.deal lasts... He should know. This deal last the lifetime of the
:10:36. > :10:41.Parliament, till 2022, the deal is extremely clear... It will be
:10:42. > :10:45.reviewed after two years. And unlike the correspondence between the DUP
:10:46. > :10:54.and Labour in 2010 and 2015, this is all public, in the open, exactly how
:10:55. > :10:58.it should be. Why was it necessary to do this deal at all than we knew
:10:59. > :11:01.the DUP were going to support a Conservative government on key votes
:11:02. > :11:03.like the budget and the Queen 's speech because the result could have
:11:04. > :11:09.been Jeremy Corbyn becoming Prime Minister? Clearly the action result
:11:10. > :11:13.was disappointing from a conservative perspective but what
:11:14. > :11:17.happens now is the national interest is what matters, we have uncertainty
:11:18. > :11:22.with the Brexit negotiations and to navigate those successfully, as I
:11:23. > :11:27.hope and expect we will, it needs to be against the backdrop of
:11:28. > :11:33.parliamentary stability. Over a couple of seats short of an overall
:11:34. > :11:37.majority, this extra ten votes on key issues gives the country that
:11:38. > :11:43.stability needs at a time of uncertainty. They would have voted
:11:44. > :11:46.for you anyway. Given that our national interest is at stake, that
:11:47. > :11:50.is not a gamble anyone can responsibly make. Are you saying
:11:51. > :11:54.they would have voted down a Conservative government and allowed
:11:55. > :11:58.the prospect, rightly or wrongly, of another election and Jeremy Corbyn,
:11:59. > :12:04.who they do not support in any way, becoming Prime Minister? Had the DUP
:12:05. > :12:09.choose to vote in six months, a year, is up to them, not you or me,
:12:10. > :12:13.and given it is so important to have stability at this time of
:12:14. > :12:16.negotiation, the government for a right to take absolutely no risks,
:12:17. > :12:22.it is the responsible thing to do. You sort of implied there that you
:12:23. > :12:26.could see the DUP reconciling their differences, particularly over Irish
:12:27. > :12:32.nationalism, with Jeremy Corbyn? It's all speculation can you can't
:12:33. > :12:36.take any risks, you can't make assumptions, you go for certainty in
:12:37. > :12:41.the national interest. Except you have had such widespread criticism.
:12:42. > :12:46.Do you welcome this extra funding going to health and education in
:12:47. > :12:49.Northern Ireland? Of course Northern Ireland needs more investment in
:12:50. > :12:52.schools and hospitals and getting its industries up and running, but
:12:53. > :12:59.so does Scotland, so does Wales, so does England. Their escape to be a
:13:00. > :13:03.real sense of unfairness here, that you can't just find the convenient
:13:04. > :13:08.money tree when it is politically expedient to do so. Those cuts are
:13:09. > :13:12.urging everybody across the nation and I would say to the national
:13:13. > :13:16.interest to stop those cuts and think again because you heard it on
:13:17. > :13:21.the doorsteps, people have had it up to here and they want their schools
:13:22. > :13:26.and hospitals and new industries, critically, for growth, to be
:13:27. > :13:31.invested in. We do want the NHS funded properly, and schools, but
:13:32. > :13:35.Northern Ireland is unique, it has had this awful 40-year history of
:13:36. > :13:43.the troubles, employment in Northern Ireland is 5% lower than the rest of
:13:44. > :13:49.the UK, so they are a special case. The commitments of the Labour Party
:13:50. > :13:53.made... The commitments they made, bribing the electorate with their
:13:54. > :14:00.own money, what about 100 times bigger than the money we are talking
:14:01. > :14:02.about for Northern Ireland. Talking about Northern Ireland, as a region,
:14:03. > :14:08.it is long received the most generous funding in the UK, partly
:14:09. > :14:15.because of some of the structural difficulties. Are you happy it is
:14:16. > :14:21.heavily reliant, higher than any other part of the UK?
:14:22. > :14:25.Unions in Northern Ireland have long our Jude for an intelligent
:14:26. > :14:31.industrial strategy, just as we do and the rest of the UK, but me and
:14:32. > :14:33.we is to get good jobs to get the wealth on which public services
:14:34. > :14:39.depend. But there is this other worry. I personally feel uneasy
:14:40. > :14:42.about what the implications of this deal are in the long term for the
:14:43. > :14:47.Good Friday Agreement. I'm optimistic, as your reporter was,
:14:48. > :14:50.that the Assembly will get up and running again but it does erode
:14:51. > :14:56.trust when deals of convenience are done. What do you say to that?
:14:57. > :15:01.Because there has been, again, a lot of criticism about threatening the
:15:02. > :15:04.Good Friday Agreement. I don't think it will. If you read the agreement
:15:05. > :15:08.signed yesterday, the DUP have reaffirmed their agreement to the
:15:09. > :15:13.peace process and the Conservative government have reaffirmed their
:15:14. > :15:16.unshakeable commitment to the Good Friday Agreement, the Belfast
:15:17. > :15:19.agreement on everything critically, the Northern Ireland Secretary of
:15:20. > :15:29.State is broken and I did not and will not participate in any of these
:15:30. > :15:31.discussions with the DUP that have been taking place over the last few
:15:32. > :15:33.weeks and may take place in the future, to make sure that his
:15:34. > :15:34.impartiality as can be protected. Thank you very much.
:15:35. > :15:39.Yesterday saw a first in the Commons - an MP making their maiden speech
:15:40. > :15:42.claimed they were the first MP ever to sit in parliament with this name.
:15:43. > :15:52.At the end of the show, Frances will hopefully give
:15:53. > :16:02.Let's turn to the other big announcement in
:16:03. > :16:05.That was the Prime Minister's proposal for what will happen
:16:06. > :16:08.to the three million EU citizens resident in Britain after Brexit.
:16:09. > :16:10.Under Theresa May's plan, all EU nationals lawfully resident
:16:11. > :16:13.in the UK for at least five years will be able to apply
:16:14. > :16:18.Those granted settled status will be able to live, work,
:16:19. > :16:25.study and claim benefits as they can now.
:16:26. > :16:28.They will also be able to bring over family members
:16:29. > :16:34.in the UK for less than five years will be able to continue living
:16:35. > :16:38.they'll be able to apply for settled status.
:16:39. > :16:42.The cut-off date for eligibility is undecided -
:16:43. > :16:46.but will be between 29th March 2017, when Article 50 was triggered,
:16:47. > :16:53.and 29 March 2019, the date at which Britain is scheduled
:16:54. > :16:57.Those arriving after the cut-off point will be able to stay
:16:58. > :16:59.temporarily but with "no expectation" they will be granted
:17:00. > :17:07.Theresa May said her plans were designed to put EU nationals'
:17:08. > :17:09."anxiety at rest" but must be reciprocal - giving
:17:10. > :17:12.certainty to the British expats living in the EU.
:17:13. > :17:15.She also insisted the UK should police the new rules rather
:17:16. > :17:21.As I said, the Prime Minister came to the Commons yesterday
:17:22. > :17:24.to explain her plan - let's take a look.
:17:25. > :17:27.I know there's been some anxiety about what would happen to EU
:17:28. > :17:32.citizens at the point we leave the European Union.
:17:33. > :17:35.Today I want to put that anxiety to rest, I want to completely
:17:36. > :17:39.reassure people that under these plans no EU citizen currently
:17:40. > :17:42.in the UK lawfully will be asked to leave at the point
:17:43. > :17:51.The Prime Minister went to Brussels last week to make what she described
:17:52. > :17:55.as a generous offer to EU nationals in this country.
:17:56. > :18:00.The truth is, it's too little, too late.
:18:01. > :18:03.That could have been done and should have been done a year ago,
:18:04. > :18:08.when Labour put that very proposal to the House of Commons.
:18:09. > :18:11.It was more than concerning to open the document designed to settle
:18:12. > :18:14.the lives of many of our EU citizens here, to discover that it
:18:15. > :18:17.leaves many more questions than it does answers.
:18:18. > :18:20.Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister went to Brussels last week and presented
:18:21. > :18:25.It fell short of expectations, with Dutch president Mark Rutte
:18:26. > :18:26.stating, "There are thousands of questions
:18:27. > :18:32.Is she going to take the opportunity to make sure that EU nationals
:18:33. > :18:35.who sadly have come to this country and abused our hospitality
:18:36. > :18:39.by committing crimes, she will use the full opportunity
:18:40. > :18:44.of this to make sure they can be removed from our country?
:18:45. > :18:48.Well, my right honourable friend, with one of his previous roles,
:18:49. > :18:51.knows very well about the issue of those who have come to this
:18:52. > :18:55.country and abused the rights that they have been given
:18:56. > :18:58.by their criminality and I certainly will ensure that those
:18:59. > :19:00.who are serious and persistent criminals, that we can take action
:19:01. > :19:10.So that was the debate in the Commons.
:19:11. > :19:14.The Government's proposals haven't been entirely well received in
:19:15. > :19:21.Brussels, you may not be surprised to hear. The EU's chief Brexit
:19:22. > :19:25.negotiator Michel Barnier has called for ambition, clarity and
:19:26. > :19:30.guarantees. So how far apart are the two sides of this negotiation? We're
:19:31. > :19:35.joined now by Leila Nathoo, our political correspondent. Is there a
:19:36. > :19:39.big gulf between the EU's position and the UK proposal? The EU have
:19:40. > :19:44.outlined their thinking, it is a bit broader than what Theresa May set
:19:45. > :19:47.out in her document yesterday. There was a lot of agreement - there is a
:19:48. > :19:51.shared desire, this is the central issue and one of the things they
:19:52. > :19:53.want to get sorted out as soon as possible. They want to look after
:19:54. > :19:57.all those EU citizens living in different countries and there is
:19:58. > :20:02.agreement on the fact that those who have lived in the country for five
:20:03. > :20:04.years continuously should then be able to have continued residency and
:20:05. > :20:12.most of the rights of the citizens of that country. But there are a few
:20:13. > :20:16.notable differences. Firstly, this issue of the cut-off date to drop
:20:17. > :20:20.you mentioned that Theresa May was talking about the cut-off date for
:20:21. > :20:26.the eligibility being no earlier than the 30th of March this year and
:20:27. > :20:29.then no later than two years' time. The EU side aren't very clear that
:20:30. > :20:34.they want all rights to be guaranteed right up until the Brexit
:20:35. > :20:39.agreement is in place and comes into force. That is, of course, into my
:20:40. > :20:42.career is time but who knows? The talks could drag on matters when
:20:43. > :20:48.they won the eligibility to start from. The other big area of
:20:49. > :20:52.difference is the ECJ. Theresa may very clear she wants to end the
:20:53. > :20:56.jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, she wants the UK courts
:20:57. > :21:01.to police this system. The EU completely at odds on that, saying
:21:02. > :21:04.they see a continued role for the European Court of Justice. There are
:21:05. > :21:10.finer details of what happened to families in the longer term. Nouri
:21:11. > :21:14.EU wants the rights of families to be guaranteed in perpetuity, whereas
:21:15. > :21:18.it is a bit vague on the UK side and there is some suggestion that
:21:19. > :21:21.families will have to apply individually to be granted settled
:21:22. > :21:26.status and that this settled status can be lost by anyone if they have
:21:27. > :21:29.two years out of the country so I think if you finer points still to
:21:30. > :21:35.be ironed out you mentioned Michel Barnier's tweet that he was looking
:21:36. > :21:37.for more clarity, so I think there is still plenty more to be worked
:21:38. > :21:40.out. Thank you very much. We're joined now by
:21:41. > :21:41.Labour's Frank Field, who campaigned for Brexit
:21:42. > :21:48.and is a former welfare minister. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Why
:21:49. > :21:52.can't the UK just accept this document of the EU's position paper,
:21:53. > :21:56.bearing in mind there is a lot of common ground and then negotiate on
:21:57. > :22:04.things like who will be the arbiter to enforce those rights? Well, of
:22:05. > :22:10.course it could. Should it? No. If we take the role but Frances O'Grady
:22:11. > :22:14.has, it is like going into wage negotiation where you actually want
:22:15. > :22:18.to map objectives, a pay increase and the employer in return wants
:22:19. > :22:22.something from you, save more flexible working. The idea you would
:22:23. > :22:26.go in and say, "Of course you can have a flexible working but we will
:22:27. > :22:30.come along separately and deal with a pay increase"... You bargain with
:22:31. > :22:34.a flexible working to get as big a pay increase as possible. My
:22:35. > :22:38.criticism of the Government is that this statement, as you rightly,
:22:39. > :22:44.gently, said, is vague, still, could have been made at the very going Mrs
:22:45. > :22:49.May's stewardship to try and reassure people that we want people
:22:50. > :22:51.to stay, that we should be weighed down in the negotiations now, not
:22:52. > :22:58.with the negotiation of the direction of the nature of the
:22:59. > :23:02.negotiations. The general statement she is now making, we are going into
:23:03. > :23:11.these negotiations, we want people to stay, we want to enforce by law
:23:12. > :23:14.people's freedoms and rights in this country. It could have been made
:23:15. > :23:18.ages ago. The nature of the negotiations, that we want to get
:23:19. > :23:23.the best deal for our people abroad as they want to get for their people
:23:24. > :23:27.here, I think is right it And it is a negotiation. As Frank Field said,
:23:28. > :23:30.if you play all your cards at the beginning and you just accept lock,
:23:31. > :23:36.stock and barrel, apart from the issue of the ECJ, you have lost that
:23:37. > :23:41.negotiation. I get lots of e-mails from members, particularly in the
:23:42. > :23:46.NHS and social care, who are EU citizens working here, and also from
:23:47. > :23:51.Britons abroad who also feel very uncertain about their status, and I
:23:52. > :23:55.have to say it is quite distressing that these announcements are making
:23:56. > :23:58.them feel more anxious about their futures. They don't know when the
:23:59. > :24:03.cut-off date is, they don't know whether there will be an income
:24:04. > :24:08.threshold, they can't plan. They pay taxes, they've done incredible jobs
:24:09. > :24:12.here and they're being treated like bargaining chips and I would say as
:24:13. > :24:16.a negotiator, actually, there are times when you show good faith by
:24:17. > :24:22.putting something on the table that shows goodwill, that it is possible
:24:23. > :24:27.to do something unilaterally because what you are trying to do is build
:24:28. > :24:31.up trust and confidence for future negotiations. Ramuwai we're talking
:24:32. > :24:34.about human beings, we're not talking about money or obscure parts
:24:35. > :24:38.of treaties, we are talking about real people who are worried about
:24:39. > :24:41.their future and it seemed to me this was the time the Government
:24:42. > :24:46.really should have done the right thing and guaranteed. But I am
:24:47. > :24:50.worried about Brits abroad also. And again, one of the real problems
:24:51. > :24:56.Labour has is with part of its vote who feels that we put foreigners
:24:57. > :25:00.first over our own kind and a deal, as Francis is describing, which if
:25:01. > :25:05.we were in the garden of Eden, we would all sign up to, would
:25:06. > :25:09.reinforce that point yet again. We have have not negotiated or
:25:10. > :25:15.safeguarded the position of Brits abroad but guaranteed those people
:25:16. > :25:25.who we want to stay state should stay, but it comes back to this
:25:26. > :25:28.vagueness of the government. This could have been made me months ago
:25:29. > :25:33.and it raises the bigger questions about how on top of the negotiations
:25:34. > :25:38.the government is. But if the Government have made a unilateral
:25:39. > :25:42.move, because these are people, and I also get correspondence from
:25:43. > :25:45.people who are worried, but if they did throw down the gauntlet and say,
:25:46. > :25:50."We are doing this, we are going to hold the moral bar slightly higher,"
:25:51. > :25:55.surely it would be up to the EU 27 members to meet our offer if we had
:25:56. > :25:58.done it and if we still do take a position paper, it is only a
:25:59. > :26:05.position paper. That will mean it will be up to the EU then to deny
:26:06. > :26:11.our citizens the same rights and they wouldn't be seen in a very
:26:12. > :26:14.positive light. I paid for my union membership and I would not like
:26:15. > :26:21.Michael Stone member to negotiate for me on that strategy. -- I would
:26:22. > :26:24.not like my union member. I am deeply critical that the Prime
:26:25. > :26:28.Minister didn't at the very beginning use a prime ministerial
:26:29. > :26:31.broadcast to say, "We need you, we actually value you and we're going
:26:32. > :26:36.to go in to get the best possible deal, please feel as least alarmed
:26:37. > :26:41.as possible". Had the work started then, I think we would have been
:26:42. > :26:45.very near a conclusion of this part of the negotiations. But even if you
:26:46. > :26:49.take it on your own terms as a negotiator, if you see this as a
:26:50. > :26:53.negotiating issue, you've got to be able to follow through on any
:26:54. > :26:59.threats you make, otherwise they're empty threats. Are we really saying
:27:00. > :27:01.that we would deport nurses, care workers...
:27:02. > :27:06.Who are saying that nurses care workers are going to be deported? I
:27:07. > :27:11.haven't heard from any government minister and they have done
:27:12. > :27:14.everything to say that that would not happen. That suggests to me that
:27:15. > :27:21.it is not a conventional negotiation because that's not what... The
:27:22. > :27:26.weakness is that they know we are pretty hopeless at controlling our
:27:27. > :27:31.borders. The idea that... We can't get around to deporting criminals,
:27:32. > :27:34.so the question you have from Mark Harper, that would be wonderful if
:27:35. > :27:39.we can guarantee taxpayers that. The idea that we've got the resources,
:27:40. > :27:43.the ability, to track and no, let alone the willpower, let alone the
:27:44. > :27:49.authority, to deport people who are doing jobs in the NHS is moonshine.
:27:50. > :27:54.So we go into these negotiations week because at the moment we cannot
:27:55. > :27:57.even defend our own borders. Lets not talk about the European Court of
:27:58. > :28:02.Justice because that is one of the big sticking points about who would
:28:03. > :28:06.have jurisdiction. Keir Starmer today, obviously Labour's
:28:07. > :28:12.negotiating person to do with Brexit, has said, actually, why
:28:13. > :28:16.can't be ECG -- the ECJ BB and force of the rights of citizens of the EU?
:28:17. > :28:21.Because one of the things about coming out is that they wouldn't be
:28:22. > :28:25.able to. To enforce the rights of EU citizens of the UK? The EU court
:28:26. > :28:32.would office the enforce the decisions that are made for Brits
:28:33. > :28:35.living abroad in Europe in the EU. Our Supreme Court, if it has any
:28:36. > :28:39.meaning at all of being the Supreme Court, would actually decide those
:28:40. > :28:43.issues are people who we actually want to stay, who we need to stay,
:28:44. > :28:47.because we've not got a policy of making sure we are going to fill
:28:48. > :28:50.vacancies with a skills programme and welfare reform programme, so
:28:51. > :28:56.over time we would become less dependent. But I think we will come
:28:57. > :29:00.to a position where the European court will decide the dispute in
:29:01. > :29:05.Europe and our Supreme Court will decide those decisions needing to be
:29:06. > :29:09.made in this country. This is the paper that has been put forward by
:29:10. > :29:12.the government. Do you not see that it is a generous offer in terms of
:29:13. > :29:16.safeguarding the position of EU citizens currently living in the UK
:29:17. > :29:22.and that family members at some stage will be able to join them or
:29:23. > :29:24.build up those years, out, and then apply for settled status, and
:29:25. > :29:29.otherwise, broadly speaking, the rights they have now will be the
:29:30. > :29:33.same? What is not generous about it? I think everybody is agreed that the
:29:34. > :29:41.offer from the British Government isn't as good as that but on the
:29:42. > :29:45.table by the EU. Who says that? Who is saying it is not as generous? In
:29:46. > :29:49.terms of income thresholds, we don't know whether family rights will
:29:50. > :29:53.apply to everybody or whether there will be an income threshold and if
:29:54. > :29:59.so, what would it be. And actually, again, all of the members writing to
:30:00. > :30:04.me from elsewhere in the EU, Britain is working abroad, are saying,
:30:05. > :30:09.actually, they want Britain to make a unilateral offer because they
:30:10. > :30:13.think that will be better for them. They don't see it as a trade. It is
:30:14. > :30:22.about taking the high ground and doing the right thing. Do you think
:30:23. > :30:26.the income threshold should be extended, if somebody was to bring
:30:27. > :30:29.in a non-EU spouse, they have to have a certain income, should that
:30:30. > :30:37.apply once Britain has left the EU citizens who come from the 27 member
:30:38. > :30:41.states? I think that's the correct position to start our negotiations.
:30:42. > :30:46.Where I am critical of the Papal is it's not as strong as David
:30:47. > :30:52.Cameron's resolution, part of that deal that he put the referendum was
:30:53. > :31:04.on child benefit. Now that has been thrown away. It would penalise you
:31:05. > :31:09.-- UK citizens... That's the main criticism, the extent as the
:31:10. > :31:15.government really got this is the overwhelming job of the government,
:31:16. > :31:20.driven by Prime Minister and colleagues, and if they had, these
:31:21. > :31:24.sorts of general statements would have been made at the very beginning
:31:25. > :31:28.of her stewardship and we would have now worked through to a position
:31:29. > :31:33.that when she went to the European summit, she would have very detailed
:31:34. > :31:35.proposals. I think the direction can this be the government is going, is
:31:36. > :31:38.not good. In March this year the government's
:31:39. > :31:40.overhaul of trade union law, designed to tighten the rules around
:31:41. > :31:42.balloting for industrial So have the changes,
:31:43. > :31:46.which proved controversial when they passed through Parliament,
:31:47. > :31:48.had any effect? But discord with the Government
:31:49. > :31:59.over plans to change 40% of strike days in 2016
:32:00. > :32:05.were down to the new junior Strikes may seem fairly common
:32:06. > :32:13.nowadays but figures show they're at an historic low,
:32:14. > :32:16.and new rules could mean The Trade Union Act
:32:17. > :32:24.came in this March. It means that industrial action can
:32:25. > :32:27.only go ahead when there's been And for important public
:32:28. > :32:31.services like health, education and transport,
:32:32. > :32:35.there's an additional threshold, meaning at least 40% of eligible
:32:36. > :32:43.members have to support the action. The RMT union are holding
:32:44. > :32:46.their annual general meeting here in Exeter this week
:32:47. > :32:48.and preliminary research by a Bradford University academic
:32:49. > :32:52.suggests that at least three of their strikes have been averted
:32:53. > :32:56.because their ballots failed The union represents
:32:57. > :33:03.transport workers. Recently, a Tube strike couldn't
:33:04. > :33:05.happen because not enough members The Trade Union Act is an attack
:33:06. > :33:11.on working people and it's an attack on organised labour
:33:12. > :33:14.in the United Kingdom. It's a deliberate attempt to try
:33:15. > :33:17.and disarm the trade unions so that we can't take effective
:33:18. > :33:21.industrial action to defend our members and move
:33:22. > :33:23.forward our agenda on pay, How much of a challenge is it
:33:24. > :33:28.for your union to reach those We've got a record of getting
:33:29. > :33:31.very high turnouts. We've just got to up our game a bit
:33:32. > :33:35.to make sure that we're fit to face these challenges that
:33:36. > :33:37.the thresholds put down We will continue to be
:33:38. > :33:40.a fighting trade union, no matter what the impediments
:33:41. > :33:42.that the Government Unions may feel these rules
:33:43. > :33:46.are suppressing their members' rights but some people think ballot
:33:47. > :33:48.thresholds are the right way The right to go on strike is a very
:33:49. > :33:55.important one but we also have to make sure that the public
:33:56. > :33:58.is protected from a small number of people potentially making radical
:33:59. > :34:01.threats that essentially hold the public to ransom,
:34:02. > :34:03.especially when its tax money that's been used often to prop
:34:04. > :34:07.up these services. The Trade Union Act has come
:34:08. > :34:11.in at a time when union It fell by more than a quarter
:34:12. > :34:17.of a million in 2016. That's the biggest
:34:18. > :34:21.annual drop in 20 years. And this coincides
:34:22. > :34:22.with self-employment Those types of people are just much
:34:23. > :34:28.more difficult to organise. They don't have a fixed workplace,
:34:29. > :34:31.they don't have a fixed manager and they don't necessarily relate
:34:32. > :34:35.to the same group of people like employees do, so they're much
:34:36. > :34:38.more difficult to organise collectively, which is the way
:34:39. > :34:41.that trade unions work. If the current trend continues,
:34:42. > :34:47.then around one in six employees will be in a union
:34:48. > :34:51.in a decade's time. This compares with one
:34:52. > :34:53.in three in the 1990s. For now, though, strikes aren't
:34:54. > :34:58.a thing of the past. At least eight ballots
:34:59. > :35:02.have reached the voting thresholds in recent months,
:35:03. > :35:04.with commuters facing rail We're joined now by the Conservative
:35:05. > :35:10.MP Robert Halfon - he was a minister until he lost his job
:35:11. > :35:13.in the reshuffle earlier this month and he's called for his party
:35:14. > :35:16.to embrace the trade unions. And, of course, Frances O'Grady
:35:17. > :35:27.of the TUC is still here. Three RMT strikes have been averted
:35:28. > :35:30.due to the trade union Bill, falling below the threshold, would you have
:35:31. > :35:35.rather the strikes had gone ahead? I would rather the problem never arose
:35:36. > :35:40.in the first place... Strikes are always a last resort. But what I
:35:41. > :35:46.think is unfair is union being saddled with this old-fashioned
:35:47. > :35:50.postal balloting, when we know, and all good Democrats should want this,
:35:51. > :35:54.that would give massively improve participation in ballots if we had
:35:55. > :35:58.the right to secret, supervised workplace ballots or indeed eBay
:35:59. > :36:04.letting, or we are the only organisation in Britain banned from
:36:05. > :36:10.balloting online to conduct votes, under strict conditions, it seems
:36:11. > :36:16.wrong and unfair, and as democratic we should all want to see it. Don't
:36:17. > :36:20.you want to see that you want to see more conservatives join trade
:36:21. > :36:23.unions, if you went down the road she is outlining, with more
:36:24. > :36:29.accessibility, then they would exceed the threshold on ballots? Let
:36:30. > :36:32.me make a first point, it's not about stopping people going on
:36:33. > :36:37.strike, it's about turnout and threshold and about workers' rights
:36:38. > :36:41.and welfare, that means all workers, if you have a cheap strike, it
:36:42. > :36:44.affects millions of workers and people going to hospital and so on
:36:45. > :36:49.and so forth, that's why the threshold and turnout was
:36:50. > :36:54.introduced. But I am fully in favour of online voting for trade unions, I
:36:55. > :36:58.have spoken to her when I was in government about this and I know
:36:59. > :37:01.there was an enquiry at the moment that the government are carrying out
:37:02. > :37:07.and if we are saying the trade unions that we want a fair threshold
:37:08. > :37:13.and turnout, especially in important services like the underground and
:37:14. > :37:18.emergency services, then it's right that there should be online voting.
:37:19. > :37:21.Should you have voted to bring in a trade union law on raising the
:37:22. > :37:27.threshold for turnout until those things came into place? Online
:37:28. > :37:31.voting is quite complex, I think it's right that they look at the
:37:32. > :37:35.best options for it but I have always supported it and I think the
:37:36. > :37:40.principal had to be there, because local cheap strikes were affecting
:37:41. > :37:45.leans of people unfairly, I think they were right to get that
:37:46. > :37:47.principle... And if people felt really strongly about voting in a
:37:48. > :37:54.ballot for strike action, they would do by any means. Hasn't this law, in
:37:55. > :38:01.the way he said, just stop militants holding unions and taking action for
:38:02. > :38:06.granted? I think what clear as I said before is all we know, we have
:38:07. > :38:13.evidence, that we can improve participation with online balloting.
:38:14. > :38:21.Do you accept that militants have held unions hostage? I don't accept
:38:22. > :38:24.that. Part of the problem here is that we are addressing strokes
:38:25. > :38:33.rather than the cause of strikes, if you look at some of the recent
:38:34. > :38:36.ballots, we incidents human rights being victimised for supporting a
:38:37. > :38:44.pregnant colleague, people facing pay cuts for six years in a row and
:38:45. > :38:49.the rise of insecure working, zero hours people do have grievances. It
:38:50. > :38:52.can't sweep them under the carpet through a bureaucratic device on
:38:53. > :39:01.ballots, you have to address the grievances. Precisely not, we are
:39:02. > :39:04.saying that what we want is a fair turnout and fair threshold is
:39:05. > :39:13.because if there is a local dispute and then a small number of people,
:39:14. > :39:19.millions of Londoners or wherever it may be, workers' rights must apply
:39:20. > :39:22.to everyone. They must also apply to the worker/ to get about their daily
:39:23. > :39:26.business who have nothing to do with the dispute. The problem with this
:39:27. > :39:30.trade union act, which was amended hugely partly because people across
:39:31. > :39:35.the parties, churches, employers, didn't want it either, but even so
:39:36. > :39:39.it remains a pretty Draconian act in one of the countries where we have
:39:40. > :39:45.the toughest legislation on unions in the developed world. I think the
:39:46. > :39:48.mood has shifted, I think people recognise that the problem is not
:39:49. > :39:58.about over mighty tree genes, it's about minority of bad employers who
:39:59. > :40:05.are exploiting workers -- it's not about over mighty trade unions. It's
:40:06. > :40:13.about stopping the injustices, you name it. I think with Tube and
:40:14. > :40:18.Sports Direct, Parliament has played a huge role... It was union
:40:19. > :40:24.organisers, we wouldn't know about it. I have no problem with that,
:40:25. > :40:30.it's a good thing. To highlight abuse and to look at the problems of
:40:31. > :40:34.those people in private companies who are possibly being abused in
:40:35. > :40:37.terms of employment practice, those are good things but separate from
:40:38. > :40:44.saying we want a fair turnout... On the turnout... The government was
:40:45. > :40:49.looking for a fight and picking a fight unnecessarily. But there are
:40:50. > :40:52.some who feel unions are doing the same thing. If we look at, since the
:40:53. > :40:56.law has come into place, there have been a number of votes on industrial
:40:57. > :41:03.action involving the NUT, the RMT, they have surpassed the threshold. A
:41:04. > :41:09.recent RMT ballot failed big rush old. If it had gone ahead, only 20%
:41:10. > :41:11.of eligible Unionists would have supported it so the law hasn't
:41:12. > :41:18.stopped industrial action because the ones I talked about Mr threshold
:41:19. > :41:23.and went ahead. The RMT one didn't and will endeavour much support.
:41:24. > :41:26.Unions always judge the outcomes of those ballots anyway, if we don't
:41:27. > :41:33.get a high turnout, we're not going to get good support for a strike.
:41:34. > :41:40.But the web at -- you would have had a strike... You have had strikes by
:41:41. > :41:44.the RMT held on low thresholds, not all of them, which have been held
:41:45. > :41:49.even with a low threshold and they have gone ahead with however much or
:41:50. > :41:54.little support. The less support you have, the more you show you a week
:41:55. > :41:59.so unions are very smart at looking at the turnouts of those ballots.
:42:00. > :42:02.They need to make sure they have got the probable they take action. You
:42:03. > :42:06.said you wanted the Conservative Party to be the party of workers,
:42:07. > :42:13.what makes you so confident that will happen? I would like to be
:42:14. > :42:17.modern trade union and how we offer membership services in the way trade
:42:18. > :42:20.unions do and although trade union membership has declined, it's still
:42:21. > :42:25.many millions and political parties would dream to have that kind of
:42:26. > :42:28.membership but we did introduced the national minimum wage, that cut
:42:29. > :42:33.taxes for learners, millions of apprenticeships... That was really
:42:34. > :42:38.an extension of what Labour introduced, the national minimum
:42:39. > :42:41.wage... It is much higher than what was being proposed then...
:42:42. > :42:45.Introducing millions of apprenticeships for young people to
:42:46. > :42:49.get on that letter. Are you pleased to see the back of manifesto
:42:50. > :42:54.commitments made in the last election to drop the pensions triple
:42:55. > :42:59.lock in favour of a double lock? I am, I was concerned about that, I
:43:00. > :43:04.made my feelings clear that brought the manifesto was published that
:43:05. > :43:07.many pensioners are not on pension credit, not necessarily well off,
:43:08. > :43:12.and I was very worried that because we didn't put the figure on, that
:43:13. > :43:15.people would... So you agreed with your colleague, it was the world
:43:16. > :43:21.first manifesto? There were a lot of good things in it, particularly on
:43:22. > :43:26.apprenticeships and skills, but I was glad that in terms of the
:43:27. > :43:33.pension, fuel allowance and the triple lock, yes. You agree people
:43:34. > :43:37.of that up with austerity? I think people have struggled for many
:43:38. > :43:41.years, it's not austerity, it's about living within our means, we
:43:42. > :43:44.can only spend the money we have. But it's been particularly hard on
:43:45. > :43:47.people, particularly public sector workers.
:43:48. > :43:49.Now, we heard a lot after the election about how
:43:50. > :43:51.young people had finally made their voice heard.
:43:52. > :43:54.And it seems they want to shout about rather a lot.
:43:55. > :43:57.So what are some of the main issues facing younger people in society -
:43:58. > :43:59.and how do their fortunes compare with their elders?
:44:00. > :44:01.Despite low mortgage costs, young people in the UK
:44:02. > :44:07.are struggling to get on the housing ladder.
:44:08. > :44:09.In 1991, 36% of people aged 16-24 owned a home -
:44:10. > :44:17.that had fallen to 9% by the end of financial year 2014.
:44:18. > :44:21.Over that same period, the number of homeowners
:44:22. > :44:24.among 25-34 year olds fell from 67% to 36%.
:44:25. > :44:28.University tuition fees are also often cited as a millstone around
:44:29. > :44:34.The average amount of debt in England for each
:44:35. > :44:37.graduate is now ?32,220 - but of course they won't have
:44:38. > :44:41.to start paying this back until they rise
:44:42. > :44:47.After an initial fall in the number of applicants
:44:48. > :44:50.when the tuition fee cap was raised, the sector rebounded quickly
:44:51. > :44:52.and each successive year has seen record numbers accepted -
:44:53. > :44:56.including those from disadvantaged backgrounds.
:44:57. > :44:58.And young people in Britain are more likely to be in work
:44:59. > :45:03.the unemployment rate for 16-24 year olds is 12.5%,
:45:04. > :45:15.That's compared to the EU average of 18%, or more than 40%
:45:16. > :45:19.So is this a bleak time to be a young person,
:45:20. > :45:21.or have they, in the words of Harold Macmillan,
:45:22. > :45:25.We're joined now to discuss this by Sean O'Grady
:45:26. > :45:26.from The Independent, and Frances O'Grady
:45:27. > :45:38.Neither is quite alone Neil but they both have plenty to say on this
:45:39. > :45:43.subject! Eight was a big dividing factor in the election, wasn't it?
:45:44. > :45:46.Yes, it was and what we found for pretty much the first time was young
:45:47. > :45:51.people registering to vote and then getting out to vote and tending to
:45:52. > :45:56.road Labour and many of them were voting Labour I think because Jeremy
:45:57. > :46:00.Corbyn put an enormous pile of money on the table and asked them to help
:46:01. > :46:07.themselves in terms of reduction of so-called student debts, in terms of
:46:08. > :46:12.reintroducing allowances for sixth formers and that sort of thing. So I
:46:13. > :46:17.think they were basically bribed but I don't mind about that but I think
:46:18. > :46:22.that in a world where we're becoming a world where each generation has to
:46:23. > :46:26.fight their own corner, if that's what it's going to be, my generation
:46:27. > :46:31.does have to do that to. Does that indicate that they felt extremely
:46:32. > :46:34.aggrieved? Paying tuition fees, being saddled with student debt, as
:46:35. > :46:37.many of them see it, even though they don't pay it back until they
:46:38. > :46:41.reach a certain threshold, the prospect of buying a home if that is
:46:42. > :46:45.what you want to do is now extremely remote. That wasn't the case when I
:46:46. > :46:49.was younger. Well it was the case when I was younger and maybe both of
:46:50. > :46:55.us were younger if we think back hard enough. There is an idea abroad
:46:56. > :46:58.that the 1960s to 1990s were a sort of wonder period in which nothing
:46:59. > :47:03.happened that was bad mother went wrong. I lived through, as you may
:47:04. > :47:06.have done, the Thatcher era, which was very hard. We have mass
:47:07. > :47:09.unemployment. I've been through a couple of housing booms but also
:47:10. > :47:15.couple of housing crash is. I don't want to sound like the
:47:16. > :47:18.Yorkshireman... I'm about to get the violins out! When you tell young
:47:19. > :47:21.people today about some are called negative equity, where your mortgage
:47:22. > :47:26.was higher than the value of the House and the bill each month was
:47:27. > :47:29.bigger... We went through that. Is a matter fairer exposition of the
:47:30. > :47:34.situation for young people if you look at it across the decades? I've
:47:35. > :47:38.got grown-up children and I'm not keen on this story of generation
:47:39. > :47:42.wars, often because it is the parents who are supporting young
:47:43. > :47:45.adults and so on. But also because inequality within generations is
:47:46. > :47:52.bigger than any inequality between them. But this is looking at younger
:47:53. > :47:55.people, comparing it to today. Without doubt this is the first
:47:56. > :48:01.generation that looks like it is going to end up worse off than its
:48:02. > :48:05.parents. We have seen big hikes in housing that to push them out of the
:48:06. > :48:09.housing market and young people are three times more likely to be on an
:48:10. > :48:15.insecure contract, and that very often means low paid, too. So I
:48:16. > :48:19.think there are reasons why young people did get energised during the
:48:20. > :48:23.election and I don't think it was so much the tuition fees, by the way.
:48:24. > :48:29.On our polling, that was way down the list. Was about decent jobs and
:48:30. > :48:33.the chance of a good home. Hasn't it always been the case that
:48:34. > :48:39.generations say, we are better off than our parents? No. For most of
:48:40. > :48:43.human existence, most of what you might call the modern era, even,
:48:44. > :48:46.children didn't expect to do far better than their parents and when
:48:47. > :48:50.they talk about housing, I agree that housing costs in real terms are
:48:51. > :48:53.much higher than wages, no doubt about that, but there is a sense of
:48:54. > :48:57.entitlement attached to it and I think that nobody has a right to own
:48:58. > :49:01.their own home and a second rewrite to make a vast amount of untaxed
:49:02. > :49:05.profit on the back of it. That's what they are really talking about.
:49:06. > :49:08.They see what has happened to previous generations and forget
:49:09. > :49:13.about hardships and sacrifices and large deposits and what the building
:49:14. > :49:18.society used to demand of you in the days before 100 as mortgages and
:49:19. > :49:21.they want a piece of the action. If you are on zero hours contract or
:49:22. > :49:26.self-employed, as you know, it is really hard to even get through the
:49:27. > :49:28.door to get a mortgage. Let's talk about employment because it is
:49:29. > :49:34.surely a credit to the government in some way that create the jobs that
:49:35. > :49:38.more people are in work, certainly compared our European counterparts'
:49:39. > :49:42.average, not Germany but suddenly the southern European countries. I
:49:43. > :49:46.think everybody wants to see everybody having a chance of a job
:49:47. > :49:50.but I think the conversation has moved on. We launched our great jobs
:49:51. > :49:55.agenda this week. So you mean that has been priced in? Everybody just
:49:56. > :49:59.assumes there won't be high youth unemployment? I think people are
:50:00. > :50:03.saying that having no job -- having a job in and of itself shouldn't be
:50:04. > :50:07.the limit of our ambitions. We want everybody to have a good job on a
:50:08. > :50:10.secure job and the kind of job you can raise a family on and four
:50:11. > :50:13.delivered his life. Isn't there something different in terms of
:50:14. > :50:18.accessibility now? We look at education and tuition fees you said
:50:19. > :50:22.wasn't a high priority. Accessibility is much better, too,
:50:23. > :50:25.compared to when we were students. Do you think people have taken that
:50:26. > :50:28.on board? If you are young person you will only see what is a young
:50:29. > :50:31.person you will only see what is around you at the time. No, they
:50:32. > :50:37.haven't taken it on board at all. Was very hard on the old days for
:50:38. > :50:45.people to get into Europe and -- AE -- into a university. We used to
:50:46. > :50:50.have Polytechnic. 50 years ago, one in 2018-year-olds, usually boys, got
:50:51. > :50:54.into university. We have doubled or tripled or increase the size of the
:50:55. > :51:00.higher education sector in 20 years or something and you expect nobody
:51:01. > :51:04.to pay for it. You have to make a contribution for it. Isn't that the
:51:05. > :51:08.realpolitik in terms of material wealth, opportunities to travel and
:51:09. > :51:12.work abroad? All of these things are now accessible to more young people
:51:13. > :51:15.than they were 30 years ago. But isn't the real issue about what's
:51:16. > :51:18.going to happen when they become pensioners, and if we haven't got
:51:19. > :51:23.occupational pension schemes and of the state pension isn't high enough,
:51:24. > :51:28.if we haven't got time is to sell to pay for social care, what then?
:51:29. > :51:32.There you go. The point is that people my age and older I in a
:51:33. > :51:35.situation where yes, they may have built some assets and wealth up in
:51:36. > :51:39.their home and so forth but as soon as they get dementia or some other
:51:40. > :51:44.long-term illness, they will lose the lot. Where is the fairness in
:51:45. > :51:50.that? And every single thing you can think of, apart from housing, from
:51:51. > :51:54.cars to computers, entertainment, meals out, anything you can mention,
:51:55. > :52:03.is miles better than it was 30 years ago. Social mobility? Sean O'Grady,
:52:04. > :52:06.they give very much. -- thank you very much.
:52:07. > :52:09.You may recall this time last week we were talking about the former
:52:10. > :52:11.Labour leader Ed Miliband's appearance as guest presenter
:52:12. > :52:16.He was listening to people flushing the loo, among other things.
:52:17. > :52:18.Well, this week it's the turn of the former Conservative
:52:19. > :52:22.Let's have a listen to how he's been getting on.
:52:23. > :52:24.Hello, this is Iain Duncan Smith, sitting in this
:52:25. > :52:28.We want to hear your views, as you're listening to this,
:52:29. > :52:32.Are negotiations with Europe over Brexit much tougher than we thought?
:52:33. > :52:34.The argument that I made, and I'm pretty sure I remember
:52:35. > :52:38.You refer to the Iain Duncan Smith who's outside the studio,
:52:39. > :52:46.I'm Iain Duncan Smith, sitting in for Jeremy Vine.
:52:47. > :52:48.So, what does flying a flag say about you?
:52:49. > :52:51.Does it make you patriotic or is it something else?
:52:52. > :52:57.Actually, in the studio they're all running around looking
:52:58. > :53:02.Whether it's Cornish, Scottish, Manx, Welsh or the Union,
:53:03. > :53:05.not to mention Northern Ireland, where we know you love your flags.
:53:06. > :53:08.Are you there with it ready to hoist?
:53:09. > :53:11.I am here and I am ready to hoist it.
:53:12. > :53:14.I've loved this and I know that you've probably spotted
:53:15. > :53:17.all the deliberate mistakes but I'm looking forward to being
:53:18. > :53:20.We're joined again by the Telegraph's radio
:53:21. > :53:22.critic Gillian Reynolds - she was with us last week
:53:23. > :53:25.to review Ed Miliband's performance on Radio 2.
:53:26. > :53:27.And by the former Conservative minister
:53:28. > :53:39.Welcome to both of you. Would you say that Ian Duncan Smith is a
:53:40. > :53:45.natural broadcaster? No, I wouldn't. He coughs a novel, for a start,
:53:46. > :53:47.which makes all the grounds of the country, me included, really nervous
:53:48. > :53:52.and we would like to send him some cough mixture and lozenges. He is
:53:53. > :53:59.not at ease with someone chatting down his ear, "Go to Madonna".
:54:00. > :54:03.Music, as a man who was an aficionado of many genres of music,
:54:04. > :54:07.is not that easy if you've never done it before. I felt sorry for
:54:08. > :54:11.Iain Duncan Smith when he was Tory leader and I feel even sorrier for
:54:12. > :54:17.him now he is a broadcaster. It proves the point that anybody can do
:54:18. > :54:21.it. When I started doing 606 on Radio 5 live, David Hatch said to
:54:22. > :54:29.me, "Enjoyed it but remember 1000 people can do it just as well". He
:54:30. > :54:35.wasn't very good at the start but he was with Danny Baker. Gillian is
:54:36. > :54:43.quite right in what she says, it is not easy. What skills do you need,
:54:44. > :54:49.would you say, David? I asked Terry Wogan for advice and said, what I do
:54:50. > :54:53.to prepare for it? He said, "You just turn up and you will find you
:54:54. > :54:57.can either do it or you can't". But at the end of it all, it depends
:54:58. > :55:01.what you're doing. In terms of music you got to have ownership of the
:55:02. > :55:07.product. I did programmes on Radio 3 and then I thought I wanted an
:55:08. > :55:16.audience I moved to classic FM. I heard that Digg! I want ownership of
:55:17. > :55:19.the music. To be told it is Andy Neal and the Street warmer saying
:55:20. > :55:26.so-and-so in your ear, I couldn't do that. For Iain Duncan Smith, he has
:55:27. > :55:30.talked about some of his favourite topics already. Do you think that is
:55:31. > :55:33.a good thing? I think he is at a disadvantage because he's much more
:55:34. > :55:36.called on to be a spokesman on serious affairs like Brexit and
:55:37. > :55:40.stuff so he is bound to feel inhibited trying to keep people to
:55:41. > :55:44.the point and to time and not expressing his own opinion because,
:55:45. > :55:50.of course, he can't. But he really warmed up towards the end. He had a
:55:51. > :55:53.very sad item about should you take a holiday when you get a terminal
:55:54. > :55:58.illness and he actually listened and you could hear him relax into that
:55:59. > :56:03.and when he got to the end, the item about flags, he came into his own
:56:04. > :56:08.and the nation learned what a flag expert is. Do you know what it is?
:56:09. > :56:15.Of Excel Logistics. I do know because we have had one on! It comes
:56:16. > :56:22.from the Latin root, meaning a banner. When you say he was talking
:56:23. > :56:26.about Brexit and perhaps you go into automatic politician mode because he
:56:27. > :56:31.had to spell out his impartiality credentials, which is never a good
:56:32. > :56:35.sound on the radio, you might say. It was the only word he got in
:56:36. > :56:41.because the two of them went head-to-head, Daniel Hannan and
:56:42. > :56:47.Sarah Ludford, went head-to-head and he couldn't get in at all. Will he
:56:48. > :56:55.improve over the week? I don't know. I wouldn't expect so. He's going to
:56:56. > :56:58.sign you up as his PR agent! I resigned from the Tory party when he
:56:59. > :57:01.became leader. Thought he would be hopeless as leader and he was and I
:57:02. > :57:05.think he is the same as a broadcaster but he is doing his
:57:06. > :57:08.best, as we all try to. But the point is, actually, that programme
:57:09. > :57:12.began with Jimmy Young, who was a friend of mine, a constituent of
:57:13. > :57:16.mine and even voted for me. But Jimmy Young created an atmosphere in
:57:17. > :57:20.which people would give out, as they always used to do with David Frost.
:57:21. > :57:23.You can't expect someone like him or indeed Ed Miliband to create that
:57:24. > :57:29.kind of atmosphere. Do you admire him for having a go? I admire anyone
:57:30. > :57:34.for having a go but don't you think they should recruit for a bigger
:57:35. > :57:40.pool? Where are the women? I think Ruth Davidson would've been a much
:57:41. > :57:44.better booking. Tory, balance. FE, balance. Interesting, very good
:57:45. > :57:50.balance. And young. Who would you have if you are looking at
:57:51. > :57:55.politicians? People who have genuine talent and not just doing it because
:57:56. > :58:01.it is a geek. Ken Clarke was very good on Jazz FM. It was a passion. I
:58:02. > :58:07.think broadcasting cannot just be a job, it's got to be a passion and I
:58:08. > :58:10.just don't think that he or, indeed, Ed Miliband have much of a passion
:58:11. > :58:13.for it and the other problem is that until you develop a voice of your
:58:14. > :58:20.own and you're just in the hands of the producers, you could just as
:58:21. > :58:24.well be a ventriloquist's dummy. Thank you both very much for coming
:58:25. > :58:25.in and being our critics for the day, marking Iain Duncan Smith's
:58:26. > :58:27.card! There's just time before we go
:58:28. > :58:30.to find out the answer to our quiz. And yesterday saw a first
:58:31. > :58:33.in Parliament - an MP made their maiden speech and claimed
:58:34. > :58:47.to be the first MP ever to sit I know it is not David but I am
:58:48. > :58:52.really hoping it is Wayne. It is Darren. Darren Jones. You didn't get
:58:53. > :58:54.it right but nor did I when I was looking at it!
:58:55. > :58:56.Thanks to all my guests, especially Frances.
:58:57. > :58:59.The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.
:59:00. > :59:02.I'll be back at 11.30 tomorrow with Andrew for the first
:59:03. > :59:03.Prime Minister's Questions of this new Parliament.
:59:04. > :59:08.Brexit means Brexit. We did it!
:59:09. > :59:11.To pretend that it's going to be plain sailing is such
:59:12. > :59:15.knuckle-headed lunacy. Happy days are here.