:00:46. > :00:49.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:50. > :00:52.The first of eight bills paving the way for Brexit is published but
:00:53. > :00:54.Labour are already saying they'll vote against it.
:00:55. > :00:56.Is this the start of a long legislative battle
:00:57. > :01:00.Theresa May describes her reaction to the general election result,
:01:01. > :01:03.will displaying emotion help dispel her robotic image?
:01:04. > :01:08.Jeremy Corbyn's in Brussels for a date with the EU's chief
:01:09. > :01:11.Would the Labour leader strike a better deal
:01:12. > :01:26.And Teutonic delight over Brexit, yes, why the Germans are looking
:01:27. > :01:32.forward to calling their jam "marmalade".
:01:33. > :01:35.Don't say that we don't cover the big stories here on the Daily
:01:36. > :01:44.Politics! All that in the next hour
:01:45. > :01:47.and with us for the duration today, the man who helped Ed Miliband lose
:01:48. > :01:50.the 2015 General Election, when he also lost his
:01:51. > :01:52.own seat as an MP. But as losing the is
:01:53. > :01:55.the new winning I suppose Douglas Alexander,
:01:56. > :02:05.welcome to the programme. First this morning,
:02:06. > :02:07.the government is publishing the first of eight bills that
:02:08. > :02:10.will pave the way for Britain's departure from the European Union,
:02:11. > :02:13.that's less than 21 months a way now and there's lots of legislative
:02:14. > :02:21.work to do before then. The European Union Bill,
:02:22. > :02:23.known as the Repeal Bill, is a key part of the government's
:02:24. > :02:25.Brexit strategy. It will repeal the 1972
:02:26. > :02:28.European Communities Act which took Britain into the EU and remove
:02:29. > :02:30.the supremacy of Brussels law. Brexit Secretary David Davis said
:02:31. > :02:33.the Bill "is one of the most that has ever passed
:02:34. > :02:46.through Parliament". He has asked MPs across the house
:02:47. > :02:50.to work together to deliver it. The Labour party say they'll vote
:02:51. > :03:05.against the legislation unless there The bill is not expected to be
:03:06. > :03:11.debated in the Commons or the Lords until the autumn. Labour's Shadow
:03:12. > :03:14.Brexit Secretary, Keir Starmer, says in its current form, the Bill gives
:03:15. > :03:16.ministers "sweeping delegated powers" which would allow the
:03:17. > :03:18.government to alter legislation with "minimal parliamentary scrutiny."
:03:19. > :03:24.The bill is not expected to be debated until the autumn, but will
:03:25. > :03:27.need to be passed by the time the UK leaves the EU - scheduled for March
:03:28. > :03:29.2019. And I'm joined now by David Jones - who was until recently a
:03:30. > :03:31.minister in the Department for Exiting the EU. Douglas Alexander,
:03:32. > :03:35.an essential part of this process is the so-called repeal Bill, and they
:03:36. > :03:39.are now threatening to vote against it having said they would vote for
:03:40. > :03:42.it. They accept the principle that Britain will leave the European
:03:43. > :03:48.Union but they are not convinced by David Davis's reckoning that this is
:03:49. > :03:51.one of the most important pieces of legislation to come before the
:03:52. > :03:54.parliament in decades. They are doing their job to make sure they
:03:55. > :03:59.scrutinise this bill, make sure it is the best possible bill given the
:04:00. > :04:03.circumstances. Not trying to frustrate the Brexit process, they
:04:04. > :04:07.may not have the numbers, but if I voted this build them, what would
:04:08. > :04:11.happen? It is ultimately in the hands of the government, the Labour
:04:12. > :04:16.Party leadership has taken quite a lot of heat in recent months for not
:04:17. > :04:21.seeking to circumvent or to deny the vote that was cast on the 23rd of
:04:22. > :04:23.June last year, at the same time as saying, there are significant
:04:24. > :04:27.changes which can and should be made to the bill, the Henry VIII powers,
:04:28. > :04:32.the way that devolution is treated, there is significant principles
:04:33. > :04:36.embedded in this legislation which deserve to be scrutinised by
:04:37. > :04:39.Parliament. Makes it a lot more difficult, if you face war from the
:04:40. > :04:46.Labour Party, given it is a hung parliament. It does, the point is
:04:47. > :04:48.that the Labour Party supported the notification of withdrawal bill, the
:04:49. > :04:53.legislation that led to triggering Article 50, having done that, I
:04:54. > :05:00.think they have a duty to act positively towards this bill. Their
:05:01. > :05:05.job... Their job is to scrutinise it, they don't need to accept...
:05:06. > :05:09.They may accept the principle. The Labour spokesman this morning said
:05:10. > :05:13.they do, it is then their job, the bits they don't like, they are
:05:14. > :05:16.entitled to vote against it. I'm not sure if Keir Starmer sounds like he
:05:17. > :05:21.is accepting the principal at the moment but moving beyond that, yes,
:05:22. > :05:23.we accepted must be scrutinised, one of the most positive things recently
:05:24. > :05:28.was the House of Lords Constitution committee report which suggested a
:05:29. > :05:33.way forward in terms of scrutiny. I think that is a really good basis
:05:34. > :05:36.for going forward, having joined committees on both houses scrutinise
:05:37. > :05:41.in the legislation before its cause is put forward. I think that is a
:05:42. > :05:46.really good basis for discussion. The shadow Brexit Minister has put
:05:47. > :05:48.the government on notice, that's a quote, leader of the Liberal
:05:49. > :05:56.Democrats says the repeal Bill will " be hell", you must be pleased you
:05:57. > :05:59.are not in the department any longer. There are complications not
:06:00. > :06:04.being in the Department, I think the Commons of -- comments of Tim Farron
:06:05. > :06:10.are ridiculous, to suggest the process will be held. Politicians on
:06:11. > :06:14.all sides will have to do scrutinise this, Conservative colleagues will
:06:15. > :06:18.want to do that as well, but to talk in terms of these effectively
:06:19. > :06:22.wrecking it, that is irresponsible. Should Labour vote against the
:06:23. > :06:25.second reading, I can see why in committee, separate committee, down
:06:26. > :06:32.on the floor of the house, lots of amendment is... But should they vote
:06:33. > :06:35.against the second reading? I think that largely depends upon what kind
:06:36. > :06:38.of commitment is the minister is given in the course of the second
:06:39. > :06:42.reading debate, I think it is regrettable that it was not
:06:43. > :06:45.published in draft so there could be pre-legislative scrutiny, a lot of
:06:46. > :06:47.these issues could have been resolved if there was a
:06:48. > :06:53.pre-legislative draft produced, that will have to happen now in the
:06:54. > :06:58.course of the passage of the bill. The government is ready to listen on
:06:59. > :07:00.Brexit, David Davis says MPs must work together, the Prime Minister
:07:01. > :07:05.keeps on asking the Labour Party for ideas and so on(!) but where are as
:07:06. > :07:12.the government given concessions on this? -- where has the government.
:07:13. > :07:16.We have not seen it published yet. They could have given concessions
:07:17. > :07:19.incorporated in the bill and we have no indication that is the case. So
:07:20. > :07:23.far it has not been published, clearly, the government have made
:07:24. > :07:27.clear that they are happy and anxious to discuss the way forward
:07:28. > :07:30.with other parties, the Prime Minister could not have been
:07:31. > :07:36.clearer. This issue of the Henry VIII powers, which means that you
:07:37. > :07:42.can alter legislation, by a statutory instrument, other than
:07:43. > :07:47.legislation, you can see why people will be wary of that. On the other
:07:48. > :07:52.hand, we have only until March 2019 to get all of this stuff onto the
:07:53. > :07:57.British legal framework. Surely, there is no other way of doing this,
:07:58. > :08:02.it is massive. My sense is that there is difficulty in incorporating
:08:03. > :08:07.many thousands of statutory instruments onto the statute book,
:08:08. > :08:10.so that we move beyond March 29, has the government in this bill given
:08:11. > :08:13.adequate assurance that there will not be a continuing capability for a
:08:14. > :08:15.very significant piece of legislation to be amended by
:08:16. > :08:20.statutory instruments. -- March 2019. Thereby enabling, if you like,
:08:21. > :08:24.not taking back control by Parliament but a loss of
:08:25. > :08:31.parliamentary scrutiny. Because these editor, rather than... Yes,
:08:32. > :08:37.indeed. What you say -- because being executive. -- because the
:08:38. > :08:41.executive. They cannot be exercised in definitely, I return to the
:08:42. > :08:43.questions on the House of Lords Constitution committee,
:08:44. > :08:48.pre-legislative scrutiny, power should be exercised only on certain
:08:49. > :08:53.terms. I'm glad you brought that up, for the second time, the Lords
:08:54. > :08:57.report, on this, because they said the repeal Bill will involve massive
:08:58. > :09:02.transfer of legislative competence from parliaments to government. It
:09:03. > :09:08.could potentially... They have said that it will. That is why the
:09:09. > :09:13.scrutiny process is so important. The suggestion by the House of Lords
:09:14. > :09:16.committee has said there should be joint scrutiny, before it came
:09:17. > :09:20.through, and they suggested constraining the powers, by applying
:09:21. > :09:24.it only to the extent necessary to correct the British statute book and
:09:25. > :09:28.also to ensure that any thing which was agreed during negotiation
:09:29. > :09:31.process could also be incorporated. I think the government would be
:09:32. > :09:36.willing to listen to those proposals. The head of the National
:09:37. > :09:39.Audit Office, impartial, highly respected civil servant, has said
:09:40. > :09:43.that the Brexit strategy is in danger of falling apart like a
:09:44. > :09:46.chocolate orange. I would have thought a chocolate orange was a
:09:47. > :09:52.particularly well engineered confectionery item. He was comparing
:09:53. > :09:55.it to a cricket bat! Rather more sturdy than a chocolate orange.
:09:56. > :10:00.Having been in the Department, I can confirm that the Department for
:10:01. > :10:10.exiting the European Union is right across Whitehall on this. I did not
:10:11. > :10:13.recognise criticisms remade, it did not reflect any thing I was aware of
:10:14. > :10:17.when I was there. Douglas Alexander, the Labour Party says it wants to
:10:18. > :10:23.now incorporate the European Charter of fundamental rights is. Into UK
:10:24. > :10:29.law. -- European Charter of fundamental rights. Not Straw 's
:10:30. > :10:33.book, but the European Charter, yet this was the charter which Labour
:10:34. > :10:39.said in power would have no more significance than reading the Beano
:10:40. > :10:44.comic, and would not involve Britain, and now we are writing it
:10:45. > :10:48.into UK law. -- Strasbourg. Why is that? That has been included as a
:10:49. > :10:53.request from the Labour Party, because first of all, it has taken
:10:54. > :10:56.on greatest trick forehand significance, in terms of implement
:10:57. > :11:03.rights, there may have been -- that may have been exhibited, but the
:11:04. > :11:06.policy concern is to make sure we do not see a degradation of employment
:11:07. > :11:15.and is and human rights as a consequence of it being written in.
:11:16. > :11:20.Surely if Parliament say that this government were eroding workers'
:11:21. > :11:26.rights, then Labour, they would say it is an outrage, we will reverse
:11:27. > :11:31.that, and get elected on that basis, why do you need... Why do you
:11:32. > :11:34.need... MPs were elected to this Parliament on a mandate not have a
:11:35. > :11:39.Great Repeal Bill but a bill that would guarantee all of those human,
:11:40. > :11:44.social and employment rights... Why do we need a European Charter to do
:11:45. > :11:48.that? Are we not capable... We already have the jurisdiction of the
:11:49. > :11:52.European Court of Human Rights, based in Strasbourg, and we remained
:11:53. > :11:56.under their jurisdiction. It has been said that will not change, the
:11:57. > :12:00.Tories have said that, Parliament becomes sovereign in these matters,
:12:01. > :12:05.we collect Parliament, why do we need a European Charter? You have
:12:06. > :12:09.had Philip Hammond, increasingly influential Chancellor of the
:12:10. > :12:13.Exchequer, threatening the spectre of a north Atlantic Singapore,
:12:14. > :12:18.implement rights would be reduced. That would be a matter... If the
:12:19. > :12:22.country voted to go that way, fine, in the unlikely event, I would
:12:23. > :12:27.suggest, if it doesn't, you can stop that. But the country has voted for
:12:28. > :12:31.Labour MPs to go that way. Why give all of this power to lawyers, do you
:12:32. > :12:36.trust politicians? Parliament is the forum in which these matters will be
:12:37. > :12:45.decided. The Charter of fundamental rights is in effect a signposting
:12:46. > :12:53.measure, referring to underlying rights which will not be affected in
:12:54. > :12:57.any way, they will remain. There have been repeated assurances that
:12:58. > :13:01.there will be no degradation of workers' rights. You think it would
:13:02. > :13:05.be wrong to include this? It is unnecessary for the reasons given.
:13:06. > :13:10.We will see, we will see whether or not it is a red line. Don't go away,
:13:11. > :13:12.we are sticking with Europe, for a change(!)
:13:13. > :13:16.Now, it wasn't a prominent feature of the Brexit debate in the run
:13:17. > :13:18.up to the referendum, and most of us had probably never
:13:19. > :13:22.Yet Britain's membership of Euratom, the EU-wide agency that governs
:13:23. > :13:24.the transportation of radioactive materials needed in nuclear energy,
:13:25. > :13:27.research and medicine, has become one of the first major
:13:28. > :13:33.tests for the government's plans for EU withdrawal amongst MPs.
:13:34. > :13:38.Let's talk to our Assistant Political Editor, Norman Smith.
:13:39. > :13:44.what's it all about, Norman? One of Theresa May's key red lines, namely,
:13:45. > :13:51.getting out of the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice
:13:52. > :13:54.because this European regulator, comes under the jurisprudence of the
:13:55. > :14:00.European Court of Justice. As we know, Theresa May has said clearly,
:14:01. > :14:03.part of Brexit is insuring it is British courts that decide, and for
:14:04. > :14:09.that reason, she believes we have to leave Euratom and set up our own
:14:10. > :14:14.agency which would come under the authority of which is courts, why
:14:15. > :14:17.this matters is because one, there are all sorts of potential,
:14:18. > :14:22.practical implications in terms of the nuclear industry in Britain, in
:14:23. > :14:27.terms of retaining jobs here, but above all, concerns about what the
:14:28. > :14:32.impact might be on the import of medical isotopes, used for scans and
:14:33. > :14:34.treatments and cancer medicine. The fear is that if we leave, that could
:14:35. > :14:45.be compromised. to do the question is how far will
:14:46. > :14:50.she risk this in order to stick by her red line of ending the authority
:14:51. > :14:55.of the European Court of Justice? Does she faced a potential rebellion
:14:56. > :14:58.on her own backbenchers on this issue? She absolutely does. There
:14:59. > :15:05.was a Westminster debate yesterday and I was struck by the range and
:15:06. > :15:11.number of Tory MPs who have deep worries about what this is going to
:15:12. > :15:14.mean and, interestingly, even some Eurosceptics said we are going to
:15:15. > :15:19.have to find a solution to this because this is a problem that will
:15:20. > :15:25.crop up again and again and again. Take, for example, the issue of EU
:15:26. > :15:31.nationals. Who was going to enforce their rights? The European Court or
:15:32. > :15:34.British courts? That conflict will come up repeatedly. His suggestion
:15:35. > :15:37.is you should come up with a tribunal system where you had a
:15:38. > :15:43.British judges sitting alongside European judges but this sort of
:15:44. > :15:47.tension, trying to resolve which court has authority, is going to be
:15:48. > :15:52.central to the whole Brexit process and we are now seeing the sharp end
:15:53. > :15:55.of it with the debate over Euratom. It's quite a good example of
:15:56. > :16:01.something which has never been high profile but is incredibly
:16:02. > :16:06.complicated to resolve whichever way we go and incredibly complicated
:16:07. > :16:11.within the time table because the Article 50 deal, although it doesn't
:16:12. > :16:15.get implemented if it's done until March 2019, will have to be done
:16:16. > :16:19.around November 2018 for ratification. They must be thinking
:16:20. > :16:24.in Whitehall, to get all this done by then will be hard. That's spot
:16:25. > :16:30.on. What is interesting if we cut the government's positional paper on
:16:31. > :16:33.a Euratom and they are proposing a transitional phase. It seems to me
:16:34. > :16:38.Brexit is now moving into transition time because all of these
:16:39. > :16:41.difficulties are piling up and as Michel Barnier said yesterday, the
:16:42. > :16:45.clock is ticking because he basically once this sorted by next
:16:46. > :16:48.autumn. We have this hulking repeal bill about to be published, all
:16:49. > :16:53.sorts of problems and difficulties ahead on that if it can be passed at
:16:54. > :16:57.all and then behind that, seven other bits of Brexit legislation
:16:58. > :17:01.and, frankly, no one believes it's going to be possible to do it in
:17:02. > :17:05.that time frame, so the only by the Government can do it is to buy
:17:06. > :17:11.themselves some time. Use. Talking about a transitional period. The
:17:12. > :17:19.difficulty of that is its like sort of throwing a match into the Tory
:17:20. > :17:24.backbenchers, because Tory backbenchers, talking transition,
:17:25. > :17:29.you're basically trying to scupper Brexit by talking further off, like
:17:30. > :17:31.the CBI talking about this unending process of transition, but that
:17:32. > :17:36.seems to be what the Government will have to do if it's to get any of
:17:37. > :17:39.this through. Thank you for that, fashion wishing -- fascinating
:17:40. > :17:41.stuff. David Jones is still with us,
:17:42. > :17:51.and we are also joined The Royal College of radiologists is
:17:52. > :17:56.warning today that leaving Euratom would impact on the impact of
:17:57. > :18:00.radioisotopes, the chief executive of the industry Association said the
:18:01. > :18:11.transportation of medicalised isotopes could be affected. Are they
:18:12. > :18:15.right? It certainly does. Of course, what we have to do is put our own
:18:16. > :18:20.arrangements in place to replace that, but what we are overlooking is
:18:21. > :18:24.the fact we have no option but to leave the Euratom treaty because it
:18:25. > :18:27.was so closely bound up with EU treaties, legally, that giving
:18:28. > :18:31.notice under Article 50 to leave the EU treaties have the effect of
:18:32. > :18:36.leaving Euratom so what we are now doing is putting in place a bill,
:18:37. > :18:42.coming through in this session of Parliament, and... Can you do that
:18:43. > :18:48.in this Parliament? I believe we have no option but to do so. What do
:18:49. > :18:55.you say to transition, transition, transition? I think there will be a
:18:56. > :19:01.transition period. Implement says you have agreed it but cannot do it
:19:02. > :19:07.in the time. Transition implies that there will remain things that have
:19:08. > :19:12.to be resolved over a period of time after March 2019. That's a different
:19:13. > :19:16.thing. That is a fair comment but we will seek to come to the agreement
:19:17. > :19:23.with the EU negotiations which are going on at the moment and put in
:19:24. > :19:28.place the fermentation period. OK, Ed Vaizey, at PMQs, Damian Green
:19:29. > :19:33.accused even Jock colleagues of scaremongering, because you said
:19:34. > :19:42.Euratom would be a risk to the treaties. Are you scaremongering?
:19:43. > :19:46.No, I didn't know the lady who heads the Royal College of radiologists
:19:47. > :19:50.and I was on a programme of her this morning, the first time I had met
:19:51. > :19:54.are. I was rung up by a newspaper asking for a quote about this and I
:19:55. > :19:56.said absolutely not. I said I'm not going to give you a quote about
:19:57. > :20:02.isotopes because don't know about this issue. I have the joint
:20:03. > :20:05.European tourists, nuclear research facility, that's where I come from,
:20:06. > :20:09.but when I met this lady this morning she showed me the treaty
:20:10. > :20:16.which said medicalised isotopes are covered and it's a tariff issue, I
:20:17. > :20:19.gather, and she is concerned so she has raised these concerns and wants
:20:20. > :20:25.answers from the Government. I come at it from the European research
:20:26. > :20:29.angle where Britain is that the way and received hundreds of millions of
:20:30. > :20:33.pounds worth of investment and created thousands of jobs on the
:20:34. > :20:40.back of it. The Prime Minister included the UK's intention to leave
:20:41. > :20:43.Euratom in a letter back in March. It seems a long time ago now fulfil
:20:44. > :20:48.nothing much has happened since then, nothing I could think of, but
:20:49. > :20:54.it was back in March. Didn't they see this isn't it too late? Yes, I
:20:55. > :20:58.raised it during the Article 50 debate, but the clear message from
:20:59. > :21:02.the Government and I supported them on this, was you couldn't exercise
:21:03. > :21:06.Article 50 without coming out of the Euratom, it had to be a clean
:21:07. > :21:09.Article 50 if you like. If they had tried it, they would be subject to
:21:10. > :21:13.legal action and because it ended up in the European Court of Justice for
:21:14. > :21:17.months on end. Having said that, none of us have seen the legal
:21:18. > :21:22.advice or have a precis of it. The Iraq plenty of people who say the
:21:23. > :21:27.opposite but we are where we are and we defined a way forward. What is
:21:28. > :21:31.coming out in your discussion with David is, please let's not be so
:21:32. > :21:41.ideological about Brexit that anything with a word European is
:21:42. > :21:43.bad. If it means we sustain trade in aviation for example, the European
:21:44. > :21:47.Court of Justice has a role, please don't say we can't have it because
:21:48. > :21:53.it's got the word European. This point about transition, and it was
:21:54. > :21:56.raised in the debate yesterday by David, don't be frightened of
:21:57. > :22:00.transition don't think transition is a Trojan horse to stop a Brexit.
:22:01. > :22:06.Think of it as making sure we get a Brexit which does not cost jobs and
:22:07. > :22:10.investment in this country. I think that's a very fair. As you
:22:11. > :22:14.mentioned, Bill Cash yesterday came up with a suggestion which I think
:22:15. > :22:19.were very sensible. Example, you could have a joint panel of British
:22:20. > :22:26.and EU judges and in fact there are precedents for this. The Canadian EU
:22:27. > :22:31.free trade treaty which was concluded recently, made fraught
:22:32. > :22:38.panel of three, one from each side and an independent. You will need a
:22:39. > :22:43.lot of judges and properly another panel on people's rights. The legal
:22:44. > :22:47.profession is going to be the fastest-growing profession in
:22:48. > :22:49.Britain at this rate. Speaking as a lawyer, that's not a bad thing.
:22:50. > :22:58.LAUGHTER I knew you had a vested interest!
:22:59. > :23:06.You see this as a dripping roast, don't you? Even the boat leave
:23:07. > :23:09.campaign directly, they treated the Tory party keeps making huge
:23:10. > :23:13.misjudgements over what the referendum was about and claims the
:23:14. > :23:14.role of the European Court is not a significant problem -- though to
:23:15. > :23:30.leave. -- vote leave. What we need to do now
:23:31. > :23:34.is make sure we have arrangements and implementation and transitional
:23:35. > :23:37.arrangements, coupled with the dispute resolution system which is
:23:38. > :23:45.acceptable. It's not beyond the wit of man. It's quite complicated,
:23:46. > :23:48.isn't it? Our negotiating strategy is a mess. Secondly, the prior
:23:49. > :23:52.decision by Theresa May that the European Court of Justice would have
:23:53. > :23:58.no further relevance after Article 50 was concluded has a whole series
:23:59. > :24:03.of consequences which were not anticipated at the time. Take David
:24:04. > :24:09.Davis' word for it. He was surprised a red line was drawn on it. I would
:24:10. > :24:14.echo the point that frankly, whether it's the European arrest warrant, or
:24:15. > :24:19.Euratom, there are common-sense solutions which could emerge that
:24:20. > :24:26.our intention with a dim dogmatic approach which said the ECJ is a red
:24:27. > :24:30.line, one of the consequences is if it gives way to a growth industry of
:24:31. > :24:36.new regulatory bodies and judicial oversight, there will be fastly more
:24:37. > :24:41.bureaucracy for lawyers in Britain, hardly the deregulatory initiative
:24:42. > :24:46.the Brexiteers were hoping for. The suggestion is the Prime Minister was
:24:47. > :24:51.being dogmatic but the cases Article 50 provides, as soon as the two
:24:52. > :24:55.years have expired, we cease to be subject to the European treaties.
:24:56. > :24:59.Part of that is being subject to the jurisdiction of the European Court
:25:00. > :25:06.of Justice. What we have to do now is put in new arrangements for
:25:07. > :25:13.resolving disputes. Do you believe this can be done by March 2019? I
:25:14. > :25:18.don't know but in any case, there will be a period after that where
:25:19. > :25:22.these matters are talked about. I agree with you but there is a purely
:25:23. > :25:26.British conceit of this conversation as we get to decide whether we are
:25:27. > :25:31.in the Euratom or not. I agree with that. We have 27 other governments
:25:32. > :25:38.which will decide what the deal will be. The realpolitik of this is a
:25:39. > :25:43.prime ministers not in a strong position. She's in a week position
:25:44. > :25:49.with her own party, and she could well have to give way on this. Isn't
:25:50. > :25:52.that the case? I think a lot of this stems from the rhetoric which happen
:25:53. > :25:57.before the election, no deed is better than a bad deal. And we are
:25:58. > :26:01.going to trade of the world. I would love Britain to trade with the world
:26:02. > :26:05.because this idea we are going to spring fully formed after leaving
:26:06. > :26:09.the European Union and everything is going to be fine is clearly not the
:26:10. > :26:12.case. It's going to be hard pounding in difficult. What a year and four
:26:13. > :26:16.from the payment minister before the election and I hope she does it now,
:26:17. > :26:21.to reach out to people who are very nervous about leaving the EU, access
:26:22. > :26:26.to be voted for Brexit, but there are complex issues. You can't simply
:26:27. > :26:30.pretend it's all going to be sorted by March 2019, they won't be some
:26:31. > :26:34.mess and fuzziness around the edges and you've got to dial down the
:26:35. > :26:39.rhetoric so that's where I think the new position should change the way
:26:40. > :26:43.the primaries to approach as it. That may be watching us to do. Stay
:26:44. > :26:47.with us. We are going to talk a bit more about the Prime Minister.
:26:48. > :26:50.Now stay with us because Theresa May has given an interview
:26:51. > :26:54.She became Prime Minister a year ago today.
:26:55. > :26:56.Here's what she had to say to Emma Barnett.
:26:57. > :26:58.I felt I suppose devastated really because, as I say,
:26:59. > :27:00.I knew the campaign wasn't going perfectly but still
:27:01. > :27:03.the messages I was getting from people I was speaking to,
:27:04. > :27:06.but also the comments we were getting back from a lot
:27:07. > :27:09.of people that were being passed on to me, were that we were going
:27:10. > :27:25.And then you obviously have to just brush yourself down?
:27:26. > :27:32.You've been through that experience, but I was there as leader
:27:33. > :27:38.of the party and Prime Minister and I had a responsibility then to,
:27:39. > :27:41.as we went through the night, to determine what we were going
:27:42. > :27:52.And we're also joined now by Tom Newton Dunn,
:27:53. > :27:54.who interviewed Theresa May in today's Sun.
:27:55. > :28:03.That rhymes. He interviewed her yesterday. He joins us now. Eddie
:28:04. > :28:11.Daisy, is this an attempt to project a more human Theresa May -- Eddie
:28:12. > :28:14.Daisy? I think she is human. I was listening to the interview this
:28:15. > :28:21.morning and I think she is, one of the reasons... Did you just say you
:28:22. > :28:27.think she is human? She is human. Quick recovery. I felt, listening to
:28:28. > :28:30.the radio this morning, she walked on water before the selection. One
:28:31. > :28:38.of the reasons people liked was she is understated and gets on with the
:28:39. > :28:42.job. I think it is perhaps a frustration for her that the modern
:28:43. > :28:46.political scene requires to put it bluntly a lot of demoting in public
:28:47. > :28:55.and she is uncomfortable with that. In private, she is not. I think that
:28:56. > :28:58.I'm giving her my full support. I have said that consistency. I will
:28:59. > :29:02.support her for as long as she wants to remain Prime Minister but, as I
:29:03. > :29:06.said earlier, on an issue like Europe, I would like to see her
:29:07. > :29:08.reach out more and understand the dilemmas and difficulties that the
:29:09. > :29:17.people who don't support the hard Brexit want, but in her manifesto in
:29:18. > :29:20.the election, there was a lot of policies in the driven by her about
:29:21. > :29:25.helping people who don't get a great deal out of life. There was a lot of
:29:26. > :29:32.comment about that, the actual policies were quite hard to
:29:33. > :29:36.understand that some stage. Would not be true to say the people
:29:37. > :29:40.thought they liked, but that's because they didn't know her. The
:29:41. > :29:44.moment they got to know her during the election campaign they decided
:29:45. > :29:48.they didn't really like her. It's hard to analyse. One thing is very
:29:49. > :29:52.clear, it wasn't the best campaign and frankly the manifesto itself was
:29:53. > :29:56.very disappointing. She was the campaign and she was the manifesto.
:29:57. > :30:03.I think to personalise it to that extent is unfair. She did that. All
:30:04. > :30:10.the election proposal at the start of a campaign, the word Conservative
:30:11. > :30:14.was in 6-point type. It was May, she was missing in action, the
:30:15. > :30:16.Chancellor. Other Cabinet ministers were nowhere to be seen. She
:30:17. > :30:26.personalised it. I concede it was not the best of
:30:27. > :30:29.campaigns but the manifesto was what caused us the biggest problems, and
:30:30. > :30:34.I think that anybody campaigning during that election would be able
:30:35. > :30:37.to say that the day after the manifesto was published, things
:30:38. > :30:41.changed. You interviewed the Prime Minister for your paper, did you go
:30:42. > :30:45.to Downing Street? In her study at number ten, yes. How did you find
:30:46. > :30:51.her, was she different, is she trying to be different? She was,
:30:52. > :30:54.your initial analysis is absolutely rights, although you might not
:30:55. > :30:59.necessarily believe it, you read all those tightly constructive words
:31:00. > :31:02.from her, she was straining at the bit to be different. Not answer the
:31:03. > :31:06.same question with the same phraseology 15 times in a row, a
:31:07. > :31:11.favourite trick. Talk in a human language. And also admit humility,
:31:12. > :31:15.but blatantly, where she went wrong in the campaign, whether it was over
:31:16. > :31:18.the manifesto, slightly more accurate description of what went
:31:19. > :31:23.wrong, having a manifesto she completely failed to sell, did not
:31:24. > :31:27.add up to this hard Brexit campaign that she had done. There was an
:31:28. > :31:33.essential untrue with the campaign. You saw with the interview,
:31:34. > :31:37.admitting that she cried, I did not feel brave enough to put that to
:31:38. > :31:43.her, six foot tall, hairy bottomed male political editor, saying, did
:31:44. > :31:46.you weep, Prime Minister, that was beyond me, I slightly kick myself!
:31:47. > :31:52.She is trying desperately hard to be different. It comes incredible
:31:53. > :31:56.difficulty with her because she is so shy. Did she not also, at least
:31:57. > :32:01.implicitly, maybe even more than that, to you, admit that she is
:32:02. > :32:05.unlikely, she will not be leading the Conservative Party into the next
:32:06. > :32:09.election? That came across strongly, repeatedly I asked her, leaving ten
:32:10. > :32:14.to fight another general election as party leader? EU intends to be here
:32:15. > :32:18.in two years' time? One you time? She refused to put any date on it,
:32:19. > :32:24.she made it clear she would not be around in 2022, kept on coming up
:32:25. > :32:28.with the phrase, I want to do the job for a few years, there is a job
:32:29. > :32:33.to do the Fry few more years, a few more years, throughout the
:32:34. > :32:37.transcript. She wants to see Brexit through, it is the mess that she has
:32:38. > :32:45.got us into and she wants to get us out of it but after then she will
:32:46. > :32:48.move off. That is the mood of the backbenches, they don't want her to
:32:49. > :32:51.go now, there is no consensus on who would replace her, but they don't
:32:52. > :32:57.think she should fight another election. Maybe if she survives that
:32:58. > :33:03.long, completing the Article 50 talks would be a natural time to go,
:33:04. > :33:06.that is the mood I picked up, is that accurate? I said that I was a
:33:07. > :33:10.supporter of her as long as she wants to be prime Minster, sounds a
:33:11. > :33:15.bit pompous for me to keep saying that but received wisdom... It does,
:33:16. > :33:21.actually! LAUGHTER. All nodding sagely at that. No
:33:22. > :33:25.disagreement here! Hairy bottomed pomposity. I don't think we need to
:33:26. > :33:31.revisit that! LAUGHTER The truth is, in Westminster, she
:33:32. > :33:36.would see two years seen through Brexit and then depart, that is the
:33:37. > :33:44.mood in the team as well. Good or bad news for Labour that Theresa May
:33:45. > :33:49.stays? I cannot see how she could fight another general election, no
:33:50. > :33:53.slight on his journalism, but the dogs in the street knows you will
:33:54. > :33:56.not, there will be an alternative leader of the Conservative Party who
:33:57. > :34:00.fights the next general election. One more reason she will stay for a
:34:01. > :34:04.couple of years, which Conservative MPs will not tell you, they are
:34:05. > :34:08.terrified of what would happen... She has managed to put this plaster
:34:09. > :34:12.over two wings of the party, badly represented by David and Ed here, if
:34:13. > :34:17.she goes, they are terrified of what they may do to each other, club each
:34:18. > :34:22.other to pieces! Paving the way for another snap election. Which they
:34:23. > :34:25.fear they would lose. Open civil war to the country, presented to the
:34:26. > :34:28.country -- presenting this open civil war to the country would be so
:34:29. > :34:33.detrimental, they would lose. Tough job, she brought it on herself, what
:34:34. > :34:39.in a sense she is being asked to do a form of penance, to deliver Brexit
:34:40. > :34:44.as best she can, to the satisfaction of the majority in the house, but
:34:45. > :34:49.will get none of the benefits of it because when she has done that, she
:34:50. > :34:53.is expected to go. That is quite tough, in the tough world of
:34:54. > :34:57.politics. I disagree, if you are somebody as ambitious as she is, to
:34:58. > :35:01.become Prime Minister, she knows if she goes now, her legacy... She
:35:02. > :35:07.could secure an Article 50 conclusion which would give her a
:35:08. > :35:10.different place. I think that her legacy of taking Britain out of the
:35:11. > :35:15.European Union on successful terms would be great. And then I think
:35:16. > :35:20.that is the time she would consider it, going after that. Can I just
:35:21. > :35:26.say... Very briefly, before we move on. I am a number one member of the
:35:27. > :35:29.David Davis Fanclub, the argument that we would ever... Davy Jones fan
:35:30. > :35:35.club. The notion that we would ever fight between each other. We have
:35:36. > :35:38.this sick inducing unanimity breaking out... Quite distasteful(!)
:35:39. > :35:43.LAUGHTER We are not continuing! LAUGHTER
:35:44. > :35:47.We are not here to help you get along! LAUGHTER
:35:48. > :35:53.But we do. Very nice(!) Now, Jeremy Corbyn is in Brussels
:35:54. > :36:00.today, along with Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon,
:36:01. > :36:03.remember her, and Welsh First
:36:04. > :36:04.Minister Carwyn Jones. They've all been meeting
:36:05. > :36:06.with the European Commission's chief negotiator, Michel Barnier
:36:07. > :36:08.for private talks ahead of the second round of formal
:36:09. > :36:10.negotiations in Brussels next week. Jeremy Corbyn has said Labour would
:36:11. > :36:19.avoid the "megaphone diplomacy" this is what he had to say when he
:36:20. > :36:25.arrived. We're representing 13 million people
:36:26. > :36:28.that voted Labour in the general election and these are crucial
:36:29. > :36:30.negotiations for our country and we are here to ensure
:36:31. > :36:33.that we defend jobs and living standards and try and discover
:36:34. > :36:35.exactly what the views of the European Union are today
:36:36. > :36:38.on the whole process. Let's speak now to our
:36:39. > :36:48.old friend Adam Fleming, Formerly of this parish, now living
:36:49. > :37:00.the high life, hope for us all, indeed! Do we have a clear idea of
:37:01. > :37:04.what his message will be, do we have any idea what the response will be
:37:05. > :37:07.from Michel Barnier? Jeremy Corbyn is here on a twofold mission, number
:37:08. > :37:13.one, he wants to sell Michel Barnier a briefing on his labour flavoured
:37:14. > :37:16.version of Brexit, which Labour say would put far more emphasis on
:37:17. > :37:21.protecting jobs, on the economy, they say they would make unilateral
:37:22. > :37:26.offers EU citizens living in the UK to protect their rights from Day 1,
:37:27. > :37:31.with no negotiations and no quibbles about it at all. I imagine that
:37:32. > :37:34.would be quite popular with Michel Barnier from the European side, that
:37:35. > :37:38.is just the sort of thing the year once the UK to offer European
:37:39. > :37:43.citizens living in the UK. The second part Jeremy Corbyn's mission,
:37:44. > :37:47.revealed in the Labour press release issued to go alongside this visit,
:37:48. > :37:52.they talk about labour being the government in waiting, so this is as
:37:53. > :37:56.much about getting Intel about the "Brexit" negotiations as making
:37:57. > :38:00.Jeremy Corbyn look Prime Minister Arial. Somebody who can strike the
:38:01. > :38:04.world stage, or at least the stage here in Brussels. In terms of what
:38:05. > :38:08.Michel Barnier will think of all of this, EU officials have made it
:38:09. > :38:12.clear, when asked about this, they are happy to welcome Jeremy Corbyn
:38:13. > :38:17.here for a meeting but it was Jeremy Corbyn's invitation, he was the one
:38:18. > :38:21.that asked for the meeting, not the other way around. The next sentence
:38:22. > :38:26.is always, the EU Commission will negotiate with the British
:38:27. > :38:29.government. There will be no Brexit negotiations over lunch in that
:38:30. > :38:35.building between Michel Barnier and Jeremy Corbyn today. I assumed that
:38:36. > :38:40.will be Michel Barnier's message to the Scottish First Minister, and the
:38:41. > :38:44.Welsh First Minister. Yes, Nicola Sturgeon flew in first thing this
:38:45. > :38:48.morning, in the building for less than an hour and then flew back out
:38:49. > :38:51.again, very short meeting. She tweeted to say she had a good
:38:52. > :38:55.conversation with Michel Barnier, I understand she was doing her
:38:56. > :38:59.Scottish flavoured version of Brexit which involves keeping Scotland with
:39:00. > :39:04.excellent access to the single market, the stuff she has been
:39:05. > :39:07.talking about all through the Brexit process, I don't know whether they
:39:08. > :39:11.had much time to discuss the details, does not look likely. Her
:39:12. > :39:14.big contribution today will be when she arrives back in Glasgow airport
:39:15. > :39:19.shortly, she will give her verdict on the Great Repeal Bill, published
:39:20. > :39:24.in London a short while ago. The fact is, Michel Barnier's door is
:39:25. > :39:29.always open, he has made a big thing about speaking to people from all
:39:30. > :39:33.sectors of the economy, all sorts of different places to find out what
:39:34. > :39:37.they think about Brexit but he is very clear again that the only Prime
:39:38. > :39:42.Ministers and presidents and leaders that he takes instruction from our
:39:43. > :39:47.leaders of the 27 EU countries. It will be interesting, given that he
:39:48. > :39:51.is seeing Jeremy Corbyn, Nicola Sturgeon, Carwyn Jones...
:39:52. > :39:56.is seeing Jeremy Corbyn, Nicola Sturgeon, Carwyn I have forgotten
:39:57. > :40:01.his name... Carwyn Jones... I should have known it was Jones, Neil is the
:40:02. > :40:06.Welsh First Minister. Can he avoid the temptation to play politics,
:40:07. > :40:13.because they are more cordial than the government. -- he is the Welsh
:40:14. > :40:17.First Minister. Jeremy Corbyn has tried to up the cordiality for his
:40:18. > :40:22.meeting with Michel Barnier by giving him an Arsenal shirt! Jeremy
:40:23. > :40:25.Corbyn represents where Arsenal has their stadium, in Islington, north
:40:26. > :40:29.London, we think it is because Michel Barnier is French and the
:40:30. > :40:33.manager of Arsenal is French, you and I totally across all the details
:40:34. > :40:40.of football, as you know. What's Arsenal(!) a well-known football
:40:41. > :40:46.team. Very well. It may well be they have similar viewpoint in private,
:40:47. > :40:50.in terms of how Brexit is going forward, Michel Barnier is not going
:40:51. > :40:55.to do any public statements about how these meetings have gone. You
:40:56. > :40:58.probably will not reveal anything about whether he feels that Jeremy
:40:59. > :41:01.Corbyn or Nicola Sturgeon are easier to deal with than David Davis, did a
:41:02. > :41:04.press conference yesterday setting out all the things he wants to deal
:41:05. > :41:09.with looking forward to the next round of talks, darting with David
:41:10. > :41:12.Davis on Monday. I suspect the reason Michel Barnier does not want
:41:13. > :41:18.to make a big song and dance out of the meeting, the simple diplomatic
:41:19. > :41:29.reason that he is Intel cut is David Davis from Britain. -- --
:41:30. > :41:32.interlocutor. I will be over to join you in Brussels soon, to test your
:41:33. > :41:37.expenses account to the very limit(!) LAUGHTER
:41:38. > :41:39.It seems right that they should go to see Michel Barnier, nothing wrong
:41:40. > :41:46.with that. There is nothing wrong with it but it is equally right
:41:47. > :41:52.there is a understanding on the part of Michel Barnier that the British
:41:53. > :41:56.interlocutor is David Davis. Particularly with Jeremy Corbyn, if
:41:57. > :41:59.there was a snap election, Jeremy Corbyn could be the next Prime
:42:00. > :42:03.Minister and Labour would have to do the negotiation. It is in that
:42:04. > :42:05.spirit that he has gone, from the point of view of Michel Barnier,
:42:06. > :42:08.implicit acknowledgement that Parliament will have a more
:42:09. > :42:12.significant role in shaping Brexit negotiations and the Brexit
:42:13. > :42:16.negotiating brief Ben may have been the case if as many people
:42:17. > :42:18.anticipated, the Conservatives have come back with a big majority. With
:42:19. > :42:23.a big majority. The war in Syria has been
:42:24. > :42:26.going on for over six years, and the advance of so-called
:42:27. > :42:28.Islamic State in Syria and Iraq, has had major
:42:29. > :42:30.implications for us in the UK. But now that IS is being driven out,
:42:31. > :42:33.we've been asking two With many other factions
:42:34. > :42:36.still fighting, it seems defeating VOICEOVER: Two key cities once under
:42:37. > :42:47.Islamic State control. Now Mosul in Iraq has been liberated
:42:48. > :42:50.and Raqqa in Syria is also We've reached a significant
:42:51. > :42:53.step in the dismantling of the so-called IS caliphate,
:42:54. > :42:57.but what comes next? The Syrian conflict is an alphabet
:42:58. > :43:00.soup of different groups Just because one element might start
:43:01. > :43:09.to be resolved that doesn't mean we're anywhere
:43:10. > :43:13.near fixing this mess. There are so many things going
:43:14. > :43:16.on and they're all interlinked. It's been six-and-a-half
:43:17. > :43:19.years of war. There are multiple external
:43:20. > :43:23.influences and actors and powers getting involved carving off bits
:43:24. > :43:25.of territory, There are different rules
:43:26. > :43:34.in different sets of governments been put in place of the regime
:43:35. > :43:38.of Bashar al-Assad. They're not going to go
:43:39. > :43:42.anywhere any time soon. Broadly speaking, the parts of Syria
:43:43. > :43:45.shown here in red are under the control of the government forces
:43:46. > :43:50.of President Assad. In green are areas dominated
:43:51. > :43:53.by a number of different anti-government rebel factions
:43:54. > :43:57.who oppose the Assad regime. And in the North, a large area
:43:58. > :44:00.known as Rojava in yellow is under the control
:44:01. > :44:02.of the Kurdish-led Syrian who have been leading the fight
:44:03. > :44:09.to push back IS along with supportive airstrikes
:44:10. > :44:14.from the US-led coalition. There is not one side
:44:15. > :44:16.aligned to another. It's shifting alliances,
:44:17. > :44:18.so there's a lot to play for still and where the United States
:44:19. > :44:21.is particularly involved is in this rollback of Islamic State territory
:44:22. > :44:24.and the key there is two-fold. One is, of course, to try to defeat
:44:25. > :44:26.extremist Sunni actors, but the second one is to stop
:44:27. > :44:29.the regime of Bashar al-Assad IS out in the east is in retreat
:44:30. > :44:40.and has now lost more than half But some warn, although IS may be
:44:41. > :44:44.defeated militarily, in terms of its control of certain
:44:45. > :44:47.areas, the group could continue In my opinion we're not even
:44:48. > :44:54.seeing the fall of Isis. We're seeing the pushback of one
:44:55. > :44:56.aspect of what Isis is. But in the way we are diminishing
:44:57. > :44:59.its statehood presence, its claims to statehood,
:45:00. > :45:00.we're not doing anything to resolve the fact that it
:45:01. > :45:03.remains an insurgency, it remains a terrorist
:45:04. > :45:05.movement and in fact, all of the underlying structural
:45:06. > :45:07.problems of Syrian society and of Iraqi society that allowed
:45:08. > :45:09.and led to the creation of all of this mess in the first
:45:10. > :45:26.place all still remain. Elsewhere, other fault lines
:45:27. > :45:27.are becoming more prominent. In the North, the Kurds
:45:28. > :45:30.are under attack at the hands of their long-standing enemy Turkey
:45:31. > :45:33.and this is where it America is arming the Syrian Kurds
:45:34. > :45:39.to help them fight IS, even though Turkey is America's main
:45:40. > :45:44.NATO ally in the region. You've got the counter Isis
:45:45. > :45:46.coalition going this way and the interests of Turkey
:45:47. > :45:49.going that way and of course And what you've had of course
:45:50. > :45:53.is this sort of piecemeal arrangement whereby Turkey has taken
:45:54. > :46:00.a little is of territory arrangement whereby Turkey has taken
:46:01. > :46:02.a little bit of territory in the north of the country
:46:03. > :46:05.to prevent the creation of a continuous Kurdish bloc,
:46:06. > :46:07.but they are also very frustrated about the fact the Kurds
:46:08. > :46:10.are becoming one of the biggest They're being empowered in a way
:46:11. > :46:14.which will give them some kind of political strength
:46:15. > :46:16.after the conflict is gone. So far, British MPs have voted not
:46:17. > :46:19.to put boots on the ground in Syria, but for the UK to be part
:46:20. > :46:22.of the coalition, which carries out So what of the UK's
:46:23. > :46:26.role going forward? I think where you will see more UK
:46:27. > :46:30.activity is at a time when people sit down and go,
:46:31. > :46:32."It's time to talk. "Let's try to work out a track
:46:33. > :46:37.whereby we can have the regime, "we can the Kurds, we can
:46:38. > :46:40.have the opposition in their various "different stripes actually having
:46:41. > :46:42.a realistic discussion The United Kingdom can have
:46:43. > :46:48.some influence there. The message really has to be
:46:49. > :46:51.this is a war of decades and will probably live with us
:46:52. > :46:53.in some form for the A major concern will be
:46:54. > :46:58.whether areas of Syria and Iraq will remain a breeding ground
:46:59. > :47:01.for potential terrorists even after the fall
:47:02. > :47:06.of so-called Islamic State. Back in 2013 MPs voted against
:47:07. > :47:15.committing ground troops to Syria - a result secured after Labour
:47:16. > :47:19.decided to oppose military action - our guest of the day
:47:20. > :47:21.Douglas Alexander was Shadow Foreign Secretary
:47:22. > :47:22.at the time. The Conservative MP,
:47:23. > :47:24.Nadhim Zahawi voted in favour of military action and joins
:47:25. > :47:35.as now. If the House had voted the other way
:47:36. > :47:39.in 2013 to sanction it, do you think it would've much difference? I think
:47:40. > :47:45.the vote at the time was essentially if you remember, Barack Obama the
:47:46. > :47:49.Red Line would be if President Assad used chemical weapons and he did and
:47:50. > :47:56.his action had consequences because he then used it again and only when
:47:57. > :48:02.President Trump decided to take action with a cruise missile attack
:48:03. > :48:07.and a warning two weeks ago, if you recall, the State Department
:48:08. > :48:12.delivered to Russia and other allies to say we got intelligence they are
:48:13. > :48:16.going to use chemical weapons are going if they do we were lacked a
:48:17. > :48:20.game, with the support of the UK and others, which has made resident
:48:21. > :48:25.Assad stop and think about stopping using chemical weapons so his
:48:26. > :48:29.actions have consequences. I don't know what would have happened if we
:48:30. > :48:41.had acted then. We stop the Americans. A la vote. Precisely. --
:48:42. > :48:48.our vote. I remember that weekend in Washington was fascinating. Barack
:48:49. > :48:52.Obama didn't have support in Congress because of our vote and on
:48:53. > :48:57.the Saturday in the Rose Garden he said we are not proceeding with
:48:58. > :49:02.this. Looking back now, do you regret that 2013 vote? Let's start
:49:03. > :49:08.with the facts force your introduction was not accurate. It
:49:09. > :49:13.wasn't troops on the ground. I felt when I saw that, that was wrong and
:49:14. > :49:18.you are quite right, it was air strikes. Truthfully, at the
:49:19. > :49:21.conclusion that evening in the House of Commons, David Cameron in his
:49:22. > :49:25.summation said I've got the message, Britain will not be taking part in
:49:26. > :49:29.military action, so the consequence was precluding ground truth but that
:49:30. > :49:33.was never on the order paper. There was a range of different options we
:49:34. > :49:37.said the evidence should precede the decision, there should be a vote at
:49:38. > :49:41.the UN Security Council, but we would not be mandated by the
:49:42. > :49:46.decision of the Security Council. It would surface the opposition of the
:49:47. > :49:49.Russians and, as it turned out, it was defeated as was the Conservative
:49:50. > :49:53.motion that night, and we are now in the realm of counterfactual history.
:49:54. > :49:57.I would say none of us on any side of the House of Commons can feel any
:49:58. > :50:03.pride in what happened over the last seven and a half years and the human
:50:04. > :50:08.suffering, but in not dissimilar circumstances there was a vote in
:50:09. > :50:11.favour of air strikes in Libya in 2011 where Labour support of the
:50:12. > :50:15.Government and a few of us look back on that vote with any pride either.
:50:16. > :50:20.So I think exactly had has been said, we have learned over the
:50:21. > :50:24.decades that military intervention has consequences. A lack of military
:50:25. > :50:30.intervention has consequences as well. Labour had an amendment
:50:31. > :50:34.calling for impelling evidence President Assad was responsible for
:50:35. > :50:41.the chemical attacks. There's no doubt he did, is there? Not now but
:50:42. > :50:45.there was at the time. Previously, people said weapons inspectors were
:50:46. > :50:49.not given sufficient time, we were keen to ensure the evidence informed
:50:50. > :50:55.decision. The truth is the vote took place in the long shadow of the vote
:50:56. > :50:58.of Iraq and its to David Cameron 's discredit that when he received
:50:59. > :51:03.phone call from Barack Obama saying I'm going to take military action
:51:04. > :51:06.next weekend, will you join me? David Cameron didn't have the
:51:07. > :51:10.presence of mind to say, listen, there are pros as I need to go
:51:11. > :51:13.through in Parliament. If you need to go next weekend you have my
:51:14. > :51:18.diplomatic support, I need longer time to be able to persuade people.
:51:19. > :51:27.This was pre-the vote. Immediately before it. We saw Barack Obama's
:51:28. > :51:32.timetable, I need to strike within one week, against David Cameron's
:51:33. > :51:36.timetable for legitimacy, I need to take this to House of Commons. What
:51:37. > :51:40.was wrong with that? If he had said we need to take this to the UN, get
:51:41. > :51:44.the weapons inspectors report, if we had had that, I believe there would
:51:45. > :51:50.have been a majority House of Commons for air strikes being taken
:51:51. > :51:53.forward. His point on Libya intervention, and the Foreign
:51:54. > :51:58.Affairs Committee did a comprehensive report and it isn't
:51:59. > :52:03.about understanding the consequences of intervention, and not simply knee
:52:04. > :52:10.jerking and intervening and not knowing what to do afterwards. If
:52:11. > :52:13.you look at Iraq for example, 1982, when John Major persuaded George
:52:14. > :52:18.Bush senior to take action to but in a no-fly zone, he brought in the
:52:19. > :52:22.Royal Marines and I had a Civil War. If you had a snapshot of
:52:23. > :52:26.intervention, you would have thought of the failing intervention because
:52:27. > :52:29.the two Kurdish parties went at each other but that took about a year
:52:30. > :52:32.until they realised it's no good and they should come together, they
:52:33. > :52:38.formed a parliament, coalition Government and now they are onto
:52:39. > :52:44.their 24th Government. Embryonic democracy with all the values that
:52:45. > :52:50.we try and go out and talk about and asking countries to buy into, has
:52:51. > :52:56.developed so intervention does work. You have got to go in with very
:52:57. > :53:02.clear ideas about what the eventual outcome would be. John Major said we
:53:03. > :53:05.will not be nation-building, put troops on the ground but just
:53:06. > :53:12.protect them so he can't use helicopter... No, no. He did put
:53:13. > :53:14.troops on the ground and created a safe haven. He put in the Royal
:53:15. > :53:21.Marines. One of the weaknesses of the ceasefire, I was out there at
:53:22. > :53:24.the time in the first Gulf War, was that the Americans with British
:53:25. > :53:30.support, allowed helicopters to fly and they went in and took out the
:53:31. > :53:39.Marsh Arabs who Saddam Hussein had hated and built a huge canal so they
:53:40. > :53:47.no longer had water. It's about intervention. We intervened and
:53:48. > :53:52.occupied Iraq. It was a mess. We intervened but did not occupy Libya
:53:53. > :53:58.and it was a mess. We have not intervened to any great extent or
:53:59. > :54:04.occupied Syria, it's a mess. What policy conclusion can you draw? The
:54:05. > :54:10.policy conclusion I draw is that we need to because shares in saying the
:54:11. > :54:14.vote in 2013, if it had gone the other way, would have resulted in
:54:15. > :54:19.Syria turning into Scandinavia because we had 100,000 international
:54:20. > :54:22.troops on the ground for a decade in Iraq and it was engulfed in
:54:23. > :54:29.sectarian conflict and for every independent region of physics done,
:54:30. > :54:33.you've had problems. It seems the public tolerance and a waste, for a
:54:34. > :54:37.significant number of ground troops in Middle Eastern countries has gone
:54:38. > :54:41.but, on the other hand, the reality of the conflict leads to huge human
:54:42. > :54:45.suffering and potential security threats for us and that's why we
:54:46. > :54:50.will have to find alternatives to the kinds of invasions we saw in
:54:51. > :54:53.2003. Thank you for that. It's a really important subject to be
:54:54. > :54:56.discussing. We have to move on to an even more important subject.
:54:57. > :54:59.Now - have we Brits been dictating what fruit spread should be
:55:00. > :55:03.Well, one German MEP thinks so and hopes Brexit will be
:55:04. > :55:05.an opportunity to reclaim the Teutonic tradition when it
:55:06. > :55:18.Jackob von Weizsacker joins us now from Brussels.
:55:19. > :55:25.Welcome to the programme. I'm going to put up on the screen, a little
:55:26. > :55:29.marmalade, and on this toast, I have got what we call marmalade in the
:55:30. > :55:33.UK, made with oranges but on the other piece of toast we have
:55:34. > :55:40.strawberry jam, which is not made with oranges. The clue is in the
:55:41. > :55:46.name. Are you saying, Germany, after Brexit, both could be caught
:55:47. > :55:53.marmalade? Well it turns out that the pure linguistic exercise.
:55:54. > :56:00.Week one of marmalade on and the other is marmalade. It's a problem
:56:01. > :56:05.when you start writing them because they look the same and so it was
:56:06. > :56:12.agreed a long time ago and it was a victory for Britain at the time that
:56:13. > :56:15.what we call Orange marmaladen would be called marmalade and the rest of
:56:16. > :56:30.it would have to be called confiture. I did ask a
:56:31. > :56:38.tongue-in-cheek question is whether Germans would be allowed to call
:56:39. > :56:43.their jam marmaladen again after Brexit, to sweeten the bitter
:56:44. > :56:46.aftertaste of Britain's leading EU? Now, clearly, it is a
:56:47. > :56:51.tongue-in-cheek question so to my great surprise, the Daily Telegraph
:56:52. > :57:00.and the Daily Mail made a story out of it than angry German asking for
:57:01. > :57:06.his marmalade back and in fact it was just a bit of a joke. It was an
:57:07. > :57:11.odd experience with the British press. I think you have learned the
:57:12. > :57:14.hard way, when it comes to European things, you can't joke with the
:57:15. > :57:21.Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph on that. You said allowing marmalade
:57:22. > :57:25.to be called marmaladen again could help sweeten the bitter aftertaste
:57:26. > :57:28.Brexit for many EU citizens. That's quite an important policy you come
:57:29. > :57:40.across there, isn't it? Quite, quite. Does it take the EU to do
:57:41. > :57:45.this? After all, on champagne, only sparkling wine from the Champagne
:57:46. > :57:51.region can because champagne and that is secured by the Treaty of
:57:52. > :57:56.Versailles. In 1919. Country have another international treaty to
:57:57. > :58:00.protect marmalade? -- couldn't we have? I'm not certain whether we
:58:01. > :58:07.should go back to having to deserve the science that things. -- having
:58:08. > :58:13.treaties of Versailles and such things. More importantly, discussing
:58:14. > :58:19.Brexit, is whether in fact Britain is going to leave both the single
:58:20. > :58:24.market and the customs union which would have a major disadvantage for
:58:25. > :58:30.Britain and major disadvantages for the EU 27 remaining or whether we
:58:31. > :58:34.can think of a better way of a divorce settlement and that of
:58:35. > :58:39.course a serious matter which is currently under discussion and
:58:40. > :58:44.unfortunately, it turns out in order to have such an arrangement, like
:58:45. > :58:49.the single market, we need to reach compromises. And I need to stop you
:58:50. > :58:53.because we have run out of time but I hope you'll come back and speak to
:58:54. > :58:59.us on other issues, also. A pleasure to talk to you. I will be back after
:59:00. > :59:02.question Time. Very late.