:00:36. > :00:37.Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:38. > :00:40.The Chancellor says he's being briefed against by Cabinet
:00:41. > :00:43.colleagues unhappy about his approach to Brexit.
:00:44. > :00:46.How destructive are the leaks to the workings of Government?
:00:47. > :00:49.The second round of Brexit negotiations are taking
:00:50. > :00:52.Will they make progress on the divorce settlement
:00:53. > :01:00.Teachers, parents and pupils descend on Westminster to protest
:01:01. > :01:05.Will standards suffer as head teachers try
:01:06. > :01:10.As far as I remember, it went like this.
:01:11. > :01:14.# There was I, waiting at the church.
:01:15. > :01:27.Can quoting from songs help politicians stay in tune?
:01:28. > :01:31.With us today are two plain-speaking MPs
:01:32. > :01:35.who you would never catch breaking into song.
:01:36. > :01:39.and the former Conservative Education Minister and newly-elected
:01:40. > :01:43.chairman of the Education Select Committee, Robert Halfon.
:01:44. > :01:47.Cabinet Ministers are not supposed to be candid,
:01:48. > :01:51.certainly not about what goes on around the Cabinet table.
:01:52. > :01:54.But if you've been reading the front pages in recent days, you'll have
:01:55. > :01:57.noticed it's not a tight ship as it's meant to be,
:01:58. > :02:00.with Chancellor Philip Hammond the target of negative briefings.
:02:01. > :02:04.Last week, Phillip Hammond was accused of sexism after allegedly
:02:05. > :02:07.telling Cabinet that driving trains had become so easy
:02:08. > :02:13.In another leaked Cabinet conversation, the Sunday Times
:02:14. > :02:15.reported yesterday that the Chancellor
:02:16. > :02:18.described public-sector workers as "overpaid",
:02:19. > :02:21.after pensions were taken into account.
:02:22. > :02:25.Philip Hammond, who campaigned for Remain in the EU referendum,
:02:26. > :02:27.was on The Andrew Marr Show yesterday, and addressed
:02:28. > :02:34.If you want my opinion, some of the noise is generated
:02:35. > :02:39.by people who are not happy with the agenda that I have,
:02:40. > :02:43.over the last few weeks, tried to advance, of ensuring
:02:44. > :02:48.that we achieve a Brexit which is focused on protecting our economy,
:02:49. > :02:51.protecting our jobs, and making sure that we can have
:02:52. > :02:59.continued rising living standards in the future.
:03:00. > :03:00.International Trade Secretary Liam Fox,
:03:01. > :03:03.who was a Leave campaigner, told Andrew on the Sunday Politics this.
:03:04. > :03:05."I absolutely deplore leaks from the Cabinet."
:03:06. > :03:09.Urging his colleagues to "stick to their departmental duties".
:03:10. > :03:11.And Iain Duncan Smith criticised those leaking private Cabinet
:03:12. > :03:16.conversations and briefing against the Prime Minister
:03:17. > :03:18.He had some choice words for Conservative colleagues.
:03:19. > :03:21."Just for once, shut up, for God's sake, and let everybody else get
:03:22. > :03:28.For more on this, we're joined by Isabel Hardman of the Spectator,
:03:29. > :03:42.Sunny morning fare outside Parliament. Welcome to both of you.
:03:43. > :03:46.Shock, horror, there's a difference of opinion within ministers in the
:03:47. > :03:51.Cabinet. What's difficult is when that becomes publicly aired. How'd
:03:52. > :03:56.you stop it? Cabinet ministers did stay quiet for the crucial period of
:03:57. > :04:00.the government working out how it could exist in its negotiations with
:04:01. > :04:05.the DUP, but they are now letting it out all over the front pages and
:04:06. > :04:10.broadcast interviews, and in an pleasant conversations with one
:04:11. > :04:15.another at Westminster parties. There is an appetite amongst senior
:04:16. > :04:26.Tory backbenchers for Theresa May to give her Cabinet
:04:27. > :04:29.ministers a bit of a slap down, to say that this behaviour is
:04:30. > :04:31.unacceptable, and these open divisions are not helping. It's
:04:32. > :04:33.partly because Conservative MPs do not want another election, and
:04:34. > :04:38.anything that destabilises the government further, they do not
:04:39. > :04:42.want. Theresa May's authority is shot to pieces, as is her
:04:43. > :04:46.self-confidence, and you need both of those things to be able to give a
:04:47. > :04:51.Cabinet Minister a dressing down in public. They may be calling for her
:04:52. > :04:56.to rein in some of the briefing. We've been told she is expected to
:04:57. > :05:00.remind Cabinet colleagues of the importance of keeping discussions
:05:01. > :05:04.private when Cabinet meets tomorrow. That may be ignored. Jack Blanchard,
:05:05. > :05:09.can she reign in this negative briefing? It doesn't feel like it at
:05:10. > :05:14.the moment. Her spokesman said this morning she's going to talk to the
:05:15. > :05:19.Cabinet tomorrow, but it might not be effective. The Prime Minister's
:05:20. > :05:23.authority has completely ebbed away in a few short months. You don't get
:05:24. > :05:29.the sort of briefings we've seen in the Sunday and Saturday papers come
:05:30. > :05:34.from very detailed discussions of what was said in the Cabinet, unless
:05:35. > :05:37.you have a Prime Minister with no authority. Otherwise, ministers
:05:38. > :05:42.would be too afraid to give these sorts of briefings, cos it could
:05:43. > :05:47.cost them their jobs. We have seen the chaos we've got in government
:05:48. > :05:53.this morning. Is this all about Brexit? That is what Philip Hammond
:05:54. > :05:56.was saying in his defence, that these are Brexiteer Cabinet
:05:57. > :06:01.ministers who've got it in for him because he different type of Brexit.
:06:02. > :06:07.Tim Shipman of the Sunday Times who wrote a key piece about this over
:06:08. > :06:11.the weekend has point out that a lot of his sources were remainers and
:06:12. > :06:16.Brexiteers alike, so he didn't recognise the dynamic that Hammond
:06:17. > :06:20.was alleging. Hammond is under a great deal of pressure to relax
:06:21. > :06:26.austerity, particularly on public sector pay, and there's a lot of
:06:27. > :06:29.resentment about the hostility the Treasury is showing towards number
:06:30. > :06:36.ten on this matter. The leadership is a dynamic as well. The confusion
:06:37. > :06:41.over Brexit is more of a problem. Each Cabinet Minister has their own
:06:42. > :06:45.position, for instance on how long the transitional period should last.
:06:46. > :06:49.That's another example of bad discipline, and it's a problem for
:06:50. > :06:55.Philip Hammond because he is pushing for a less hard Brexit, and that
:06:56. > :07:04.frustrates some of his colleagues. Has the Chancellor got a tin ear
:07:05. > :07:06.when it comes to discussions on public sector pay? He is a
:07:07. > :07:11.Chancellor who says what he thinks. We saw it at the budget a few months
:07:12. > :07:14.ago when he tried to increase national insurance payments, without
:07:15. > :07:17.apparently thinking about the political implications and how
:07:18. > :07:23.damaging it could be for him personally. We've seen it again with
:07:24. > :07:27.his idea that public sector servants are somehow overpaid. Whether you
:07:28. > :07:31.think that or not, it's a strong thing to be saying when these people
:07:32. > :07:35.have had a pay freeze for seven years, and we all know that they are
:07:36. > :07:40.thousands of pounds worse off than they were when the Tories came to
:07:41. > :07:43.power. This is not the sort of message his colleagues want to hear
:07:44. > :07:48.him putting across. The election was a pretty bad result for them, and
:07:49. > :07:53.part of this was put down to the issue of public sector pay. Theresa
:07:54. > :07:57.May said there was no magic money tree, and that's the kind of
:07:58. > :08:03.attitude that people don't want to hear. Robert Halfon, our public
:08:04. > :08:07.sector workers overpaid? Lower paid public sector workers have
:08:08. > :08:13.particularly suffered. I do think they need a minimum inflationary pay
:08:14. > :08:18.rise. Maybe very senior members of the council have been benefiting,
:08:19. > :08:22.but in my constituency of Harlow, these people have struggled. The
:08:23. > :08:27.time has come to do something about it. So you think that Philip Hammond
:08:28. > :08:32.should act and be briefing in the opposite direction, saying it's time
:08:33. > :08:36.to lift the 1% pay cut? Particularly for lower paid public sector
:08:37. > :08:42.workers, yes. Many have struggled over the past few years because of
:08:43. > :08:50.the difficult decisions of the economy economy. Philip Hammond did
:08:51. > :08:55.not deny he was involved in a conversation, when he said, taking
:08:56. > :09:00.into account pensions, public sector workers... He may have been talking
:09:01. > :09:06.about senior public sector workers, who may be on much higher wages than
:09:07. > :09:10.most people, public or private. We have to show public sector workers
:09:11. > :09:15.they are valued. I've suggested a couple of ways in which this might
:09:16. > :09:21.be done. Are the briefings against him fair? Whoever is doing these
:09:22. > :09:29.briefings, they need to get in a cold bath or a cold shower. Not
:09:30. > :09:34.together! And literally come out of it and have a warm pint afterwards
:09:35. > :09:38.with one another. It's not just the Prime Minister who leads us.
:09:39. > :09:43.Ministers lead us, and we need a strong party, we need to be unified.
:09:44. > :09:48.All this stuff only helps Jess Phillips and her friends in the
:09:49. > :09:54.Labour Party. If the Prime Minister has lost authority, because of the
:09:55. > :09:57.election result and being in a hung parliament, without that strong
:09:58. > :10:03.leadership, it's going to be very difficult to stop. The Prime
:10:04. > :10:06.Minister has shown commanding performances in the House of
:10:07. > :10:10.Commons, particularly at Prime Minister's Questions. We've got a
:10:11. > :10:16.choice. Either we back the Prime Minister and have a united party, or
:10:17. > :10:20.we let the Labour Party, who are not that far away, potentially, from
:10:21. > :10:25.getting into Downing Street. The party has a choice. Is it coming
:10:26. > :10:34.from a particular part of the Cabinet, the briefing? I don't know.
:10:35. > :10:37.I'm not in the Cabinet. As has been said by Isabel Hardman, allegedly,
:10:38. > :10:46.it's from all kinds of people. Philip Hammond thinks it comes from
:10:47. > :10:49.Brexiteers. I've no idea. We rely on the Prime Minister and the Cabinet
:10:50. > :10:54.ministers to lead the party and make sure we are unified and strong. Who
:10:55. > :10:59.is winning the argument over the type of Brexit the government should
:11:00. > :11:08.be pursuing? I think we should remain, because I think we should
:11:09. > :11:13.belong to an alliance of democracies. But because of the
:11:14. > :11:17.public voting the way they did, that Brexit has got to be Brexit, and
:11:18. > :11:24.that means we get out of the governing under the EU's Court of
:11:25. > :11:28.Justice and we don't have freedom of movement. That argument is very
:11:29. > :11:32.prevalent in the Conservative Party, and there would be significant
:11:33. > :11:39.consequences if we were to only half leave the EU. What would they be? We
:11:40. > :11:44.could have a rise of a new Ukip. I think you would give a lot of
:11:45. > :11:47.opportunity to extremist groups like the English Defence League, or what
:11:48. > :11:53.ever it may be. I think the public would feel that democracy has been
:11:54. > :11:58.denied, because they voted for it. Even though I voted the other way,
:11:59. > :12:03.the public voted for it. They voted to leave the European Union, with
:12:04. > :12:08.all the consequences. We have to leave the EU, get out of the court
:12:09. > :12:12.of Justice, get out of the freedom of movement, and make sure we do
:12:13. > :12:19.what the public voted for. What about Philip Hammond's news, about
:12:20. > :12:24.putting jobs and the economy at the heart of the Brexit negotiations,
:12:25. > :12:29.rather than immigration? I think all of us want jobs, economy and
:12:30. > :12:33.immigration to be at the heart of the negotiations of leaving the EU.
:12:34. > :12:40.You can have agreements with other countries in terms of making sure
:12:41. > :12:44.jobs are protected. In terms of the Labour Party and the EU, you have
:12:45. > :12:52.some divisions there. Do you have some sympathy? I have very little
:12:53. > :12:56.sympathy, ever, for the Tory Cabinet. I think they've made their
:12:57. > :13:02.bed at the moment, and they are enjoying lying in it. Do you think
:13:03. > :13:06.Philip Hammond is sexist? Yes. Not because what he said in that
:13:07. > :13:12.meeting. It wouldn't surprise me that he said that, but he apparently
:13:13. > :13:16.denies it. I've seen his industrial strategy, and I saw that people like
:13:17. > :13:24.me don't feature very heavily in it. I've seen who pays the money out
:13:25. > :13:28.when budget cuts are made, and 86% of them fall on the poorest women. I
:13:29. > :13:33.have seen their strategies for women, and they are decidedly
:13:34. > :13:38.wanting. As the Chancellor, he is sexist, and it is a surprise that he
:13:39. > :13:45.thinks a woman could even drive a train, all beat Doctor Who! The
:13:46. > :13:51.industrial strategy, the government is putting in ?2.5 million into
:13:52. > :14:00.apprenticeships by 2020. And many apprentices are women. Women get ?1
:14:01. > :14:11.less pay as apprentices. That's not the case. Paid to! The service that
:14:12. > :14:14.I saw suggested that women get paid more, as apprentices.
:14:15. > :14:17.So - Brexit Secretary David Davis arrived in Brussels this
:14:18. > :14:19.morning for the second round of Brexit negotiations.
:14:20. > :14:21.He met with the EU's chief negotiator, Michel Barnier.
:14:22. > :14:24.Here's what they had to say as they went into those talks.
:14:25. > :14:26.Our negotiating groups will work on citizens' rights, and a financial
:14:27. > :14:29.settlement, and also separation issues.
:14:30. > :14:39.Our co-ordinators will engage in a political dialogue on
:14:40. > :14:43.We made a good start last month but, as Michel says, we are now getting
:14:44. > :14:49.And, as you have heard, it is four categories,
:14:50. > :14:52.really, the issue of citizens' rights, the issue
:14:53. > :14:54.of finance, the issue of separation, and of course, separately,
:14:55. > :15:06.Let's talk to our correspondent, Kevin Connolly, who is in Brussels.
:15:07. > :15:12.No sooner had they started that it seemed David Davies had left, had it
:15:13. > :15:19.gone badly? It has been emphasised this wasn't a
:15:20. > :15:24.walk-out or dramatic gesture, it was preplanned he would turn up, exhort
:15:25. > :15:29.people to get down to business, point out the time is now for
:15:30. > :15:32.serious work, and leave shortly afterwards for a Cabinet meeting
:15:33. > :15:37.tomorrow in London. He will be back here on Thursday when he and Michel
:15:38. > :15:42.Barnier will give some sort of public tone to have the talks have
:15:43. > :15:49.gone this week. It was always the plan he would come along and exalt
:15:50. > :15:54.others for that hard work. And would then leave them to it. We
:15:55. > :15:57.are not sure if in those circumstances it is possible in
:15:58. > :16:01.terms of protocol four Michel Barnier to stage but there are
:16:02. > :16:06.plenty of negotiators and the general sense the time is now for
:16:07. > :16:11.detail and as the European side keeps reminding us the clock started
:16:12. > :16:17.ticking quite a while back. They have a lot to do, divorce
:16:18. > :16:21.settlement, status of UK citizens and EU citizens, and the border of
:16:22. > :16:25.Northern Ireland and the Republic, how much can we hope will
:16:26. > :16:28.realistically in how productive it will be?
:16:29. > :16:34.It is an interesting point. The Europeans have said there will be no
:16:35. > :16:38.talks about the UK's future relationship with the EU unless and
:16:39. > :16:43.until there is sufficient progress on those three core issues and it
:16:44. > :16:46.will be the EU who decides when progress is sufficient.
:16:47. > :16:51.But you don't have to fix those problems before you move onto the
:16:52. > :16:57.trade relationship, just show there is enough agreement in principle,
:16:58. > :17:03.and each of them in themselves is enormously problematic. Citizens
:17:04. > :17:09.rights as an example, the UK feels it has made a fair offer on the
:17:10. > :17:14.rights of EU citizens who will live in the UK after Brexit. Lots of
:17:15. > :17:17.people in Brussels say this is about keeping the European Court of
:17:18. > :17:21.Justice to oversee the rights of those European citizens. If you
:17:22. > :17:25.leave it to British courts they will administer British laws and a future
:17:26. > :17:30.British Government might change British law and changed the lives of
:17:31. > :17:37.those people forever. They need the ECJ. For the UK, the involvement of
:17:38. > :17:45.the ECJ is a red line. Even if you are talking in principle about
:17:46. > :17:47.rights you quickly get down to something fundamental. We do not
:17:48. > :17:52.know whether those officials who are doing the heavy lifting have agreed
:17:53. > :17:54.a way to avoid that sort of very fundamental issue at this very early
:17:55. > :17:59.stage. Let us talk about another
:18:00. > :18:05.contentious point, this transitional arrangement after Britain leaves the
:18:06. > :18:09.EU, it could potentially last if you years says Philip Hammond. Others
:18:10. > :18:14.like Liam Fox say they see it as lasting if you months and he wanted
:18:15. > :18:20.a time limit on it. How do politicians in Brussels view that?
:18:21. > :18:23.Lots of people in Brussels feel they understand British politics very
:18:24. > :18:29.well although their confidence might have been shaken by the events of
:18:30. > :18:33.the last year. Generally it is all followed pretty closely. There is an
:18:34. > :18:38.awareness in the British Cabinet and Parliament there is a divide between
:18:39. > :18:43.people who are ideologues and people who are pragmatic.
:18:44. > :18:48.I would not overestimate the extent to which there is an appetite in
:18:49. > :18:53.Brussels to get involved in that or see it as part of negotiations.
:18:54. > :19:00.The big fear here is that ongoing division in British politics will
:19:01. > :19:05.produce a paralysis and inability to take a decision when push finally
:19:06. > :19:09.comes to shove as it will before March 20 19.
:19:10. > :19:14.The debate in Britain is watched in Brussels not in this sense it
:19:15. > :19:18.presents the EU side with some opportunity but rather with a fear
:19:19. > :19:24.at some point it might make it very difficult for a British Government
:19:25. > :19:28.to take clear, decisive steps on issues like the European Court of
:19:29. > :19:28.Justice for example when the moment comes.
:19:29. > :19:29.Thank you. And we're joined now
:19:30. > :19:32.from Worcester by former Labour MP Gisela Stuart who co-chaired
:19:33. > :19:43.the Vote Leave campaign. Welcome back to the Daily Politics.
:19:44. > :19:47.On that point, the ongoing division is being played out in British
:19:48. > :19:51.politics in the Cabinet over the type of Brexit which should be
:19:52. > :19:55.pursued, some politicians in Brussels are worried it may lead to
:19:56. > :19:59.paralysis in negotiations, do you agree?
:20:00. > :20:04.I thought it was a very fair assessment, we tend to forget when
:20:05. > :20:09.we view this from the British perspective is it is as much in the
:20:10. > :20:13.EU's interest to reach an agreement as in hours.
:20:14. > :20:18.They have some problems because it isn't just Brussels and the chief
:20:19. > :20:23.negotiator, they are also capital cities which have a say in this and
:20:24. > :20:26.the German elections don't happen until September with political
:20:27. > :20:30.arguments. Here in the UK, we should be aware
:20:31. > :20:36.people listen to what is being said. If we go down the road of trying to
:20:37. > :20:40.rerun the referendum rather than actually implementing it and finding
:20:41. > :20:44.ways of getting the best deal for both sides, then I think we are
:20:45. > :20:51.complicating matters and we went to the right thing by our voters.
:20:52. > :20:56.Is there an attempt to rerun the referendum? Kevin described it as
:20:57. > :21:01.ideologues and pragmatists. Could that lead to a stake in negotiations
:21:02. > :21:05.if the splits continue within Cabinet where people cannot make a
:21:06. > :21:11.decision on important issues like the role of the ECJ?
:21:12. > :21:15.There is an expectation that Cabinet does make a decision.
:21:16. > :21:20.You have a deadline by which you have to have agreed the broad
:21:21. > :21:24.principles and what shape that is, whether it is a clear memorandum of
:21:25. > :21:29.understanding, the principles of how we leave have to be established.
:21:30. > :21:32.We are spending too much time on arguing whether it will be six
:21:33. > :21:39.months or nine. We need to get down to the real
:21:40. > :21:42.practicalities. As David Davis is negotiating with
:21:43. > :21:47.Michel Barnier to have these broad outlines and has to come back to
:21:48. > :21:51.London, Michel Barnier has to go back to the capital cities.
:21:52. > :21:58.Let us talk about substance, the divorce Bill, will Britain probably
:21:59. > :22:04.have to pay something in the region of 60 billion euros?, and this
:22:05. > :22:22.payment would form the basis of the UK's access to the single market?
:22:23. > :22:30.They cannot go automatically beyond our date of leaving, that will be
:22:31. > :22:34.part of it. This is jumping the game if we fix on a figure. Let us
:22:35. > :22:39.establish what our legal obligations of which have to be met.
:22:40. > :22:44.Do you agree there will have to be not just the money that is paid as
:22:45. > :22:48.part of legal obligations, some people feel we shouldn't pay at all,
:22:49. > :22:56.but there should be a payment that would give us the sort of access we
:22:57. > :23:00.want to the EU single market? Yes, it is a divorce and to help
:23:01. > :23:04.people understand it the best is to understand what that divorce
:23:05. > :23:08.settlement might be. What British politicians have to
:23:09. > :23:14.decide what is the opportunity cost of not paying? Is that hampered
:23:15. > :23:19.access to the single market? What is it we can afford and what could we
:23:20. > :23:23.afford not to do? If you listen to Rebecca
:23:24. > :23:27.Long-Bailey, she said the Labour position was to have our cake and
:23:28. > :23:32.eat it and maintain the benefits we have within the customs union.
:23:33. > :23:37.John MacDonald said the party wanted to quit the single market.
:23:38. > :23:45.Which is it? You had to ask them, they have meetings together when
:23:46. > :23:50.they come up with these lines. The truth is everyone wants to have
:23:51. > :23:54.our cake and eat it, I want to be a size ten! We all want the very best
:23:55. > :23:58.but what none of us including the Cabinet which is why Liam Fox says
:23:59. > :24:03.we're not paying any money and David Davies says we might, the problem
:24:04. > :24:06.is, we all want the very best, but no one was to take any of the
:24:07. > :24:10.downside. The British public made this
:24:11. > :24:16.decision. There will be some downside and the politicians have to
:24:17. > :24:19.sell that as an opportunity cost of what the British public might
:24:20. > :24:24.perceive to be a good thing. Do you accept that, what positions
:24:25. > :24:30.should be doing is being honest with people?
:24:31. > :24:33.Politicians should, and our negotiators, should put their
:24:34. > :24:37.energies into seeing how we can get the best deal.
:24:38. > :24:42.Let us and raffle this terminology, single market means we continue to
:24:43. > :24:46.accept the supremacy of the ECJ. And free movement of Labour.
:24:47. > :24:52.Not according to Tony Blair, he thinks we can get in reform deal,
:24:53. > :24:56.and so did Barry Gardiner, current Labour politician on the shadow
:24:57. > :25:03.front bench. Is that a possibility?
:25:04. > :25:09.Given we tried to reform it 15 years ago, and Tony Blair could not find
:25:10. > :25:12.anyone who said they agreed with him, David Cameron couldn't get
:25:13. > :25:17.these reforms. If I read the continental papers today, there is
:25:18. > :25:20.no appetite certainly in the German press of saying we can negotiate
:25:21. > :25:24.that. The fundamental principle of the
:25:25. > :25:29.single market is it contains free movement of Labour.
:25:30. > :25:34.Do you agree that that is of the table as far as you're concerned in
:25:35. > :25:38.terms of any single market membership?
:25:39. > :25:43.The Prime Minister came back with a deal. David Cameron. The public
:25:44. > :25:48.voted against it, they voted to the VE you. That means leaving the
:25:49. > :25:53.single market and the ECJ. Let us talk about the repeal, that
:25:54. > :25:59.is being cited by opposition as the area where they will try and change
:26:00. > :26:03.the shape of Brexit, what you say? The Prime Minister has said all
:26:04. > :26:07.European law will be incorporated into British law. I genuinely can't
:26:08. > :26:11.see what the big problem is and the big upset is.
:26:12. > :26:18.Then it will be decided which of those laws we don't need.
:26:19. > :26:21.That is a perfectly fair process. Who decides which once we do and
:26:22. > :26:27.obeyed. Parliament will.
:26:28. > :26:31.Answer about these Henry VIII palace where there is a fear the active
:26:32. > :26:36.will make decisions, amend some of the legislation that has come from
:26:37. > :26:40.EU law into domestic law here, and they will do that without the say-so
:26:41. > :26:46.of Parliament. Given the ingenuity of Parliament
:26:47. > :26:49.and people like Jess in Parliament, I doubt things will be done in the
:26:50. > :26:54.way you describe. The people who are saying they don't
:26:55. > :26:57.want the Repeal Bill are those who actually want to subvert the will of
:26:58. > :27:00.the British people. The agenda is they want to remain in
:27:01. > :27:05.the EU. Are you trying to subvert the will
:27:06. > :27:09.of the British people? Absolutely not, I voted to trigger
:27:10. > :27:13.Article 50 which is what my constituents voted for. When I
:27:14. > :27:18.Krsticic is worth asked to vote again they decided they did not this
:27:19. > :27:21.only want your lot willy-nilly making the laws, they wanted a
:27:22. > :27:26.decent opposition. The reason we have a hung on it is because they
:27:27. > :27:32.did not like the arrogance of Theresa May calling an election. We
:27:33. > :27:34.are there to represent our constituents.
:27:35. > :27:38.Then you have nothing to worry about because there will be proper
:27:39. > :27:41.scrutiny. Finally, since we mention Tony
:27:42. > :27:46.Blair, he said he made a mistake about Jeremy Corbyn and believes he
:27:47. > :27:49.could become Prime Minister on a left-wing ticket in terms of the
:27:50. > :27:56.economy, did you also make a mistake about him?
:27:57. > :28:02.I have given up predictions given what I saw in the last election.
:28:03. > :28:06.You predicted the referendum. I fought on one side. Can I come
:28:07. > :28:11.back to what you said about the great repeal act, it is astonishing
:28:12. > :28:14.here is an opportunity for Parliament to shape its own laws
:28:15. > :28:19.rather than having them shipped by institutions in Brussels and we
:28:20. > :28:24.should fully embrace that, take the ones which we have got, and we will
:28:25. > :28:27.have the final say rather than another institution. I would think
:28:28. > :28:29.Parliament should regard that as immensely empowering.
:28:30. > :28:32.Thank you, on that positive note. Yesterday, campaigners descended
:28:33. > :28:34.on Westminster to call In their manifesto,
:28:35. > :28:38.the Conservatives pledged an extra ?4 billion for the schools
:28:39. > :28:42.budget in England. But campaigners say
:28:43. > :28:44.that is still a real-terms cut in funding per pupil of 7%
:28:45. > :28:49.between 2015 and 2022. The Fair Funding For All Schools
:28:50. > :28:51.campaign is calling for those And Jo Yurky, who helped organise
:28:52. > :29:06.that protest, joins us now. The Conservatives pledged an extra
:29:07. > :29:12.?4 billion for schools in the manifesto, in real terms increase,
:29:13. > :29:16.is that not enough? No, the Institute for Fiscal Studies
:29:17. > :29:24.says that represents a funding cut of 7% for the end of this
:29:25. > :29:31.Parliament. Over ?2 billion has come out of our schools already. Parents
:29:32. > :29:38.are unhappy on the impact over our children, class sizes increasing,
:29:39. > :29:43.subjects cut, staff being let go, teaching assistants, support staff
:29:44. > :29:46.that parents value, they are being let go.
:29:47. > :29:52.Extracurricular activities being cut, the arts club, science club,
:29:53. > :29:55.increasingly, parents being asked to make payments by direct debit to
:29:56. > :30:01.prop up the school budget. This is not acceptable.
:30:02. > :30:06.We are unhappy about it. What are you asking for, how much would the
:30:07. > :30:12.budget need to increase to protect that per-pupil funding?
:30:13. > :30:18.We are asking for the government to listen to the educational
:30:19. > :30:22.professionals who have been saying that there is a funding problem in
:30:23. > :30:27.our schools for some time. We are asking for purpose pupil funding to
:30:28. > :30:31.be protected during this Parliament, and to listen to parents.
:30:32. > :30:36.Headteachers are trusted by their parents. Why isn't the government
:30:37. > :30:40.listening to them? Do you also want a reassessment on how the money is
:30:41. > :30:46.spent? There was a lot of debate about the funding formula that went
:30:47. > :30:51.to schools. We support the principle of the funding formula, but what we
:30:52. > :30:56.think is that they have not abided any funds to be able to deliver it,
:30:57. > :31:01.so it seems obvious that if the amount of money is shrinking, and we
:31:02. > :31:05.already know that it isn't enough to sustain our schools, that it doesn't
:31:06. > :31:09.matter how you share it out. There isn't enough money in our system to
:31:10. > :31:11.support our schools. Thank you very much.
:31:12. > :31:14.Well, Robert Halfon was a minister in the Department For Education
:31:15. > :31:17.until last month, and was elected to be the chair of the Education
:31:18. > :31:24.You have just heard Joe Root Yankee. Why are you not listening to
:31:25. > :31:29.educational professionals and teachers? In my new role as chair of
:31:30. > :31:33.the committee, I genuinely want to work with MPs on the committee and
:31:34. > :31:40.look at the question of resources, and find out exactly how much is
:31:41. > :31:44.needed. How much is needed for schools, what is going on in terms
:31:45. > :31:50.of the problems that have just been set out. Having said that, whilst I
:31:51. > :31:56.will look at resources, it is worth mentioning that there are more good
:31:57. > :32:00.students, more students in good or outstanding schools, sorry, than
:32:01. > :32:06.ever before, despite the very difficult situation in the economy.
:32:07. > :32:11.The core budget was protected. You highlighted the manifesto commitment
:32:12. > :32:14.of an extra ?4 billion, which is important. So even with the
:32:15. > :32:18.difficulties the government faced with the economy, they have put
:32:19. > :32:24.money into schools. My committee will look at the question of
:32:25. > :32:30.resources. She said that we have to protect per-pupil funding. Of
:32:31. > :32:35.course, but I would like to find out the sum that is needed, and to speak
:32:36. > :32:40.to all independent people as part of the committee. Just to be clear, you
:32:41. > :32:45.want to see per-pupil funding protected as it stands, so reverse
:32:46. > :32:51.the cuts that are being made between 2015 and 2020, which would result in
:32:52. > :32:58.something like a 7% cut in per-pupil funding? I want to find out what the
:32:59. > :33:03.exact figure is. That is the true figure, if you believe the Institute
:33:04. > :33:10.of fiscal 's to. I'm not saying I don't believe them, but the purpose
:33:11. > :33:13.of the committee is to look at evidence from teachers and other
:33:14. > :33:22.groups, find out the resources that schools need, and then, with a
:33:23. > :33:28.figure that the committee believes schools need, rather than making a
:33:29. > :33:32.pledge on TV today. In principle, you want to see per-pupil funding
:33:33. > :33:38.protected, do you? Of course. Because it isn't at a moment. It's a
:33:39. > :33:44.very difficult economic situation. We have more students in good or
:33:45. > :33:49.outstanding schools. That's because we have more students overall. The
:33:50. > :33:54.government did protect core funding of schools. Overall funding in cash
:33:55. > :34:02.terms has gone up, but because of the increase of students in our
:34:03. > :34:06.schools... Could that be to do with previous funding levels? That's why
:34:07. > :34:11.the government announced an extra 4 billion in the manifesto. Let's look
:34:12. > :34:14.at the evidence from a range of sources. Have you told the schools
:34:15. > :34:20.where you are going to get your research from? We will talk to
:34:21. > :34:25.practitioners, to teachers, to other institutes. Parents? Both my sons
:34:26. > :34:31.have 32 children in their class now for the first time ever since they
:34:32. > :34:35.started going to school. There are more children in my kids' class at
:34:36. > :34:41.an outstanding school, because there are more children in each class.
:34:42. > :34:48.Labour pledged to spend more on funding for education. How would
:34:49. > :34:52.that be funded? Well, not being a frontbencher, I assume it's from
:34:53. > :34:57.different choices that are made, different choices about who we give
:34:58. > :35:01.tax relief to, and smaller tax takes from those at the top is always the
:35:02. > :35:07.thing that was floated during the election. So you are talking about
:35:08. > :35:11.different choices being made to the Conservatives in terms of taxes. Are
:35:12. > :35:16.you also talking about removing the 1% pay cap so that teachers can be
:35:17. > :35:20.paid more, and increasing the budget for education and schools in England
:35:21. > :35:25.overall, so that per-pupil funding could be protected as it was? Of
:35:26. > :35:33.course. Surely that's what everybody would want to see. Everybody wants
:35:34. > :35:35.to see that, but you are not convinced yet until you say you've
:35:36. > :35:39.seen all the figures from different sources, although I am still not
:35:40. > :35:45.quite sure where they would come from. Lift the 1% cap and increase
:35:46. > :35:49.per-pupil funding? I think it's important the committee looks at all
:35:50. > :35:54.the evidence. The government has said there will be an extra ?4
:35:55. > :35:56.billion and the per-pupil funding will be protected. The committee
:35:57. > :36:01.will look at all these issues and see what resources are needed for
:36:02. > :36:06.schools. One of the issues you can look at is stopping the expansion of
:36:07. > :36:11.free schools. Is that something you would support in terms of releasing
:36:12. > :36:17.more money? Not necessarily, no. From what I understand, free schools
:36:18. > :36:22.have been successful. Not in my constituency. I don't see why
:36:23. > :36:26.parents should not be able to set up free schools if they want to.
:36:27. > :36:32.Because free schools cannot be set up on the whim, the desires of a
:36:33. > :36:38.group of people, when the need is an important thing. In my area, there
:36:39. > :36:42.are not enough school places, and no schools are being set up because the
:36:43. > :36:48.local authority is not allowed to set up new school places. But in
:36:49. > :36:52.another area, where it was unnecessary, a school was opened,
:36:53. > :36:57.and that affected the other schools in the area. It has to be done on
:36:58. > :37:02.need, not desire. We have to have some sort of standard, those who are
:37:03. > :37:07.in charge of everybody's kids, has to have some sort of standard based
:37:08. > :37:12.on need. Labour said they were going to scrap university tuition fees in
:37:13. > :37:19.their manifesto. Jeremy Corbyn also said he wanted to get rid of student
:37:20. > :37:23.debt. Angela Rayner said that would cost up to ?100 billion. John
:37:24. > :37:28.McDonnell said yesterday it was an ambition. Has it been kicked into
:37:29. > :37:33.the long grass? It seems that way. I have definitely got an ambition to
:37:34. > :37:39.make education free for all, right up to the end of our lives. However,
:37:40. > :37:47.I did think it was a bit of a push to suggest that people like me, who
:37:48. > :37:50.paid fees, might get it back. What about student debt? Should that be
:37:51. > :37:58.dropped by Labour? I don't know how big an issue it is. It's more than
:37:59. > :38:03.just saying drop it. Drop it may be for those who are already in jobs.
:38:04. > :38:07.The clear impression was given by Labour at the general election that
:38:08. > :38:14.they were going to scrap and wipe out student fees. That was the clear
:38:15. > :38:19.impression given. Do you think people voted on that basis? Of
:38:20. > :38:22.course. People would have voted because Labour said there were going
:38:23. > :38:28.to scrap it, and now they are saying they would not necessarily do that.
:38:29. > :38:32.We need to say to students that they have the choice to go to university,
:38:33. > :38:38.but they also have a choice of doing an apprenticeship, or even a degree
:38:39. > :38:45.apprenticeship. You earn while you learn. You earn a minimum wage. How
:38:46. > :38:50.many people in the Cabinet's children are doing that? And you are
:38:51. > :38:54.virtually guaranteed to get a job afterwards, because 90% of
:38:55. > :38:58.apprentices get a job straightaway. Thank you. We will leave it there.
:38:59. > :38:59.Livestock contribute significantly towards global warming,
:39:00. > :39:01.generating 14.5% of all manmade greenhouse gas emissions,
:39:02. > :39:04.Simon Fairlie is editor of The Land Magazine,
:39:05. > :39:07.and runs a microdairy of Jersey cows in Dorset.
:39:08. > :39:10.He maintains that one of the best ways of tackling climate change
:39:11. > :39:12.and feeding the growing world population would be by taxing
:39:13. > :39:38.Meat is a luxury, and it's time we started taxing it as such.
:39:39. > :39:41.Firstly, feeding cereals to animals is an inefficient way
:39:42. > :39:47.As grazing land becomes more scarce, it will soon be difficult to supply
:39:48. > :39:52.a predicted population of 9 billion people with a diet as rich in meat
:39:53. > :39:56.as we in the industrialised world currently enjoy.
:39:57. > :40:00.Also, eating the amount of meat we currently do causes
:40:01. > :40:05.Livestock contributes significantly towards global warming,
:40:06. > :40:08.through methane emissions and other greenhouse gases.
:40:09. > :40:12.What's more, eating a lot of meat isn't a healthy diet anyway.
:40:13. > :40:24.So how can we reduce meat eating to sustainable levels?
:40:25. > :40:29.The sensible way would be to tax fossil fuels, or otherwise
:40:30. > :40:33.reduce their consumption, because we have to do that anyway
:40:34. > :40:39.Meat production would decline because grazing land would be needed
:40:40. > :40:42.for timber and biomass production, and artificial fertilisers used
:40:43. > :40:48.for growing animal feed would become more expensive.
:40:49. > :40:51.Tragically, there is not much prospect of this
:40:52. > :40:57.The alternative is to tax meat directly, and the easiest way
:40:58. > :41:01.of doing this is to apply VAT at 20%.
:41:02. > :41:04.There is already a mechanism for doing this, and consumers
:41:05. > :41:09.are used to paying VAT on luxury items such as ice cream.
:41:10. > :41:13.While VAT would apply to factory farms and supermarkets,
:41:14. > :41:19.small farms with a turnover of less than ?85,000 could remain exempt,
:41:20. > :41:24.along with small shops, farmers' markets, food clubs and so on.
:41:25. > :41:29.This would help to make meat production more sustainable,
:41:30. > :41:37.and it would keep consumers in touch with the source of their food.
:41:38. > :41:44.Taxing meat may not be the ideal solution,
:41:45. > :42:01.And Simon Fairlie joins us now from Exeter.
:42:02. > :42:09.A gorgeous farm you've got there. Do you think people might feel your
:42:10. > :42:15.idea for taxing meat, or putting VAT on meat at 20%, would be a bit nanny
:42:16. > :42:21.state? I don't think it's any more nanny state than taxing anything
:42:22. > :42:25.else, really. We tax things for different reasons, and there are
:42:26. > :42:32.reasons for taxing meat. Could you convince people that meat is a
:42:33. > :42:36.luxury item in that sense? Not me personally, but I think society is
:42:37. > :42:43.gradually moving in that direction. A bit more than gradually. Quite
:42:44. > :42:49.quickly. Should people be penalised for being meat eaters? I wouldn't
:42:50. > :42:56.call attacks are penalised age. It's simply paying the costs of what it
:42:57. > :43:00.takes to produce something. The environmental costs associated with
:43:01. > :43:04.meat productions are such, and they are not factored in at the moment,
:43:05. > :43:11.and they should be, as they are with other goods. Let's get our guests'
:43:12. > :43:18.reaction. IU persuaded by this idea? It could kill a lot of with one
:43:19. > :43:23.stone. I wasn't convinced, but I found what was being said very
:43:24. > :43:28.compelling. I think we need a cultural change where we think that
:43:29. > :43:34.meat is a luxury, because it is not right at the moment that I can buy
:43:35. > :43:41.two chickens to feed 20 people for ?8. That just doesn't seem right,
:43:42. > :43:47.and there is a huge environmental cost to us all keeping eating meat.
:43:48. > :43:52.Nanny state or otherwise, we have got to wake up to the fact that
:43:53. > :43:58.cereal fed animals, we will not be able to carry on very much longer.
:43:59. > :44:03.This is potentially going to be a tax that is regressive and hits the
:44:04. > :44:07.poor more than it hits the rich, but I do feel that we've got to do
:44:08. > :44:12.something. We can't just keep kicking the can down the road. What
:44:13. > :44:19.do you think? The Chancellor might jump on the chance of more tax in
:44:20. > :44:25.the coffers? As someone on the Atkins diet, I find that quite
:44:26. > :44:28.interesting. I am wary of introducing new taxes to solve every
:44:29. > :44:34.problem. It would hit the lowest paid. There are some important
:44:35. > :44:39.nutrients in meat, and it can be a very healthy form of food. We've got
:44:40. > :44:45.to stop thinking that every solution can be solved by taxing people. You
:44:46. > :44:49.solve these things by education, as highlighted in your piece, rather
:44:50. > :44:53.than taxation. Perhaps we need to do more to educate people about the
:44:54. > :44:58.things that have just been described, rather than saying more
:44:59. > :45:08.tax, that would hit the lowest paid the most. Simon, where have you
:45:09. > :45:10.taken your campaign to, and what is the response to it? I wouldn't say
:45:11. > :45:17.I'm campaigning on it. I'm simply observing it and talking about it.
:45:18. > :45:21.The idea is moving forward. In Chatham House, the English think
:45:22. > :45:25.tank, it's being put forward. The Danish government have been
:45:26. > :45:31.proposing it. The idea is gradually gaining momentum, and I'm sticking
:45:32. > :45:35.my oar in, really, and saying that if we are going to tax it, VAT is
:45:36. > :45:39.probably the best and easiest way to do it. Thank you for joining us.
:45:40. > :45:41.Now, the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell said at an event
:45:42. > :45:44.at the Glastonbury Music Festival that the victims of the Grenfell
:45:45. > :45:46.Tower fire were "murdered by political decisions".
:45:47. > :45:48.It's a statement that he's been criticised for,
:45:49. > :45:51.even by some in the Labour Party, and one he was asked to defend
:45:52. > :45:56.I was extremely angry with what went on.
:45:57. > :46:03.Political decisions were made which resulted in the deaths
:46:04. > :46:11.Murder means a volition to kill another human being,
:46:12. > :46:17.There is a long history in this country of the concept of social
:46:18. > :46:21.murder, where decisions are made with no regard to the
:46:22. > :46:26.And, as a result of that, people have suffered,
:46:27. > :46:29.that is what has happened here, and I am angry about it.
:46:30. > :46:32.I believe social murder has occurred in this instance.
:46:33. > :46:34.The Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell, describing
:46:35. > :46:37.the Grenfell Tower fire as "social murder".
:46:38. > :46:44.Here to explain is the historian Giles Udy,
:46:45. > :46:52.Welcome to the Daily Politics. The phrase comes from Engels, what did
:46:53. > :46:57.he mean? When he was writing come he was
:46:58. > :47:03.talking about a different Britain, of 1845, life expectancy for a
:47:04. > :47:08.working-class woman was 41, and his analysis of what was going on in the
:47:09. > :47:11.country at the time was such that conditions were leading to a shorter
:47:12. > :47:17.life expectancy, a lowering of health.
:47:18. > :47:27.The quote, it is fairly long, he does say, to prove society commits
:47:28. > :47:32.social murder that it has placed the workers under conditions they can
:47:33. > :47:37.neither retain health nor live long, that is not manslaughter but murder.
:47:38. > :47:46.Did you agree with him then, Engels? What Engels saw and his analysis,
:47:47. > :47:51.may be debatable at the time. Undoubtedly conditions were terrible
:47:52. > :47:55.in the mid-Victorian era. Did they knowingly do it? 170 years
:47:56. > :48:01.later we live in a very different country, life expectancy for a woman
:48:02. > :48:07.in Manchester now, born today, would be 81 years old, 83.
:48:08. > :48:11.It is a very big difference. Was John McDonnell right to use that
:48:12. > :48:18.term, social murder? The initial statement, is because
:48:19. > :48:23.there was such an uproar about him saying it was murder. To suggest it
:48:24. > :48:30.was premeditated. The idea, I wish we were less bothered about John
:48:31. > :48:36.McDonnell's language and more about the standards in Grenfell Tower.
:48:37. > :48:41.However, I do think as politicians, especially at the moment when we are
:48:42. > :48:44.all suffering such horrendous abuse, that politicians should pick their
:48:45. > :48:50.words carefully. You can be passionate without the
:48:51. > :48:57.potential to insight. One has to be very careful. There is
:48:58. > :49:02.a very real issue that happened, we will find out, around Grenfell
:49:03. > :49:06.Tower, that makes you feel as if this wouldn't have happened had the
:49:07. > :49:12.people who lived in there been a different group of people. That is
:49:13. > :49:16.why I think he is saying that. This is one of the most horrific
:49:17. > :49:22.tragedies in this country for a long time but we still don't know yet
:49:23. > :49:26.fully the reasons why this tragedy happened and who was responsible.
:49:27. > :49:30.People do not make the distinction between social murder and murder,
:49:31. > :49:36.they just hear the word, murder. At the time, it was really the wrong
:49:37. > :49:43.word to use. It inflames things even further. Politicians have to be very
:49:44. > :49:46.careful in responsibility about language especially we don't know
:49:47. > :49:53.fully the reasons and who was responsible for what went on.
:49:54. > :49:57.Language is very important in politics. Engels used social murder
:49:58. > :50:03.as a term to describe dreadful living conditions, at that time.
:50:04. > :50:09.Could it be extended to any modern life equivalent?
:50:10. > :50:12.At that time when Engels was writing, if you accept his analysis,
:50:13. > :50:17.you had to accept his prescription, he talked about the result of it
:50:18. > :50:22.being the bloodiest war between the poor and rich that there had ever
:50:23. > :50:28.been, he talked about a holy battle which would lead to 1000 years of
:50:29. > :50:35.freedom. A comment place to John McDonnell's constituents, they will
:50:36. > :50:40.be pleased because they recognise it. If you refer back to that, we
:50:41. > :50:44.are trying to bring people together in our nation rather than divide
:50:45. > :50:49.them on the basis of class and wealth.
:50:50. > :50:53.Having a historical perspective and context is often used by
:50:54. > :50:57.politicians, quite often World War II is used as an analogy, anger
:50:58. > :51:00.makes people say things that are dramatic.
:51:01. > :51:08.Using what you said, how would you describe inequality in today's's
:51:09. > :51:12.society, there is great inequality. There is no doubt there is
:51:13. > :51:18.inequality. My own view is politicians on both sides of the
:51:19. > :51:19.House are equally committed to its eradication and fairness and
:51:20. > :51:27.justice. The prescription you bring into that
:51:28. > :51:31.is a very important one. Should politicians resist using
:51:32. > :51:35.these sorts of claims, particularly on your side if we are talking in
:51:36. > :51:40.this context about Grenfell Tower? Does it help the cause of trying to
:51:41. > :51:47.get to the bottom of it? Not necessarily, we should be
:51:48. > :51:53.careful about what we say. I have watched people, their expectations
:51:54. > :51:57.being raised up by politicians, wrongly so. We have to make sure
:51:58. > :52:06.credibility of the victim is and their voices is what we hear. And
:52:07. > :52:11.like Brexit or anything, politicians hanging their ideological hat on
:52:12. > :52:15.other people's expenses should be carefully done.
:52:16. > :52:20.Should he retract it? -- Experiences. He should have
:52:21. > :52:26.retracted the murder bit, that is what he has tried to do but I doubt
:52:27. > :52:31.he will retract it completely. The Grenfell Tower residents
:52:32. > :52:35.Association reportedly repeatedly warned about dangerous living
:52:36. > :52:45.conditions, in 2016, they wrote, a serious fire is the most likely
:52:46. > :52:53.reason those at Kensington Council will be brought to justice.
:52:54. > :52:56.We need to find out exactly what had happened, why, and who was
:52:57. > :53:00.responsible. Afterwards, then describe, prescribe
:53:01. > :53:07.things. To use that term at this stage, I
:53:08. > :53:10.think it is really an awful term to use.
:53:11. > :53:14.You shouldn't have done it. On issues like health and safety
:53:15. > :53:27.legislation where Boris Johnson in 2009 said -- Made a comment, David
:53:28. > :53:35.Cameron called it an albatross. We need to make sure, as I
:53:36. > :53:40.understand it, there was legislation in place but it wasn't followed. We
:53:41. > :53:49.need to be sensitive about that. There is a big difference to that
:53:50. > :53:53.and describing something as murder. Thanking you for bringing Engels to
:53:54. > :53:55.the programme. Philosophy on the Daily Politics.
:53:56. > :53:57.There's nothing like dropping in a few good song lyrics
:53:58. > :54:02.And that's a tactic many politicans have used over the years.
:54:03. > :54:09.So, Emma Vardy has some of the best ones for us.
:54:10. > :54:12.From gangsta rap to Rick Astley anthems, politicians have often
:54:13. > :54:14.looked to the world of pop to inspire their prose.
:54:15. > :54:24.take anyone for granted. anything, it is that we cannot
:54:25. > :54:26.As Croydon's Stormzy put so well in one of his songs,
:54:27. > :54:33.Labour MP Sarah Jones going all street in her maiden speech.
:54:34. > :54:35.# You're getting way too big for your boots.
:54:36. > :54:39.# You're never too big for the boot #.
:54:40. > :54:43.At this Conservative Party Conference in 1992,
:54:44. > :54:50.Peter Lilley took on benefit cheats with a song from The Mikado.
:54:51. > :54:53.I've got a little list of benefit offenders who I'll soon be rooting
:54:54. > :55:04.Meanwhile, in 1978, the Labour politician James Callaghan decided
:55:05. > :55:09.that what the TUC Annual Congress needed was a bit of Julie Andrews.
:55:10. > :55:12.As far as I remember, it went like this.
:55:13. > :55:20.# Waiting at the church, waiting at the church.
:55:21. > :55:26.# All at once, he sent me round a note.
:55:27. > :55:36.# Here's the very note, this is what he wrote.
:55:37. > :55:38.As far as the Labour Party is concerned, there is a light
:55:39. > :55:43.Labour's Kerry McCarthy clashed with David Cameron over The Smiths.
:55:44. > :55:46.I was interested that the Labour Party's favourite Smiths song
:55:47. > :55:48.is There s I A Light That Never Goes Out.
:55:49. > :55:54.Because it involves a double suicide.
:55:55. > :55:56.The lyrics are, "If a double-decker bus crashes into us,
:55:57. > :55:58.there is no finer way than by your side."
:55:59. > :56:03.I'm not sure that is wholly reassuring to the front bench.
:56:04. > :56:05.But really taking the crown is this group of legislators
:56:06. > :56:08.in Oregon, USA, who teamed up at the House Of Representatives
:56:09. > :56:15.# I just want to tell you how I'm feeling.
:56:16. > :56:22.# We're not gonna to run around and desert you.
:56:23. > :56:24.# Never gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye.
:56:25. > :56:30.# Never gonna tell a lie and hurt you #.
:56:31. > :56:38.Forget Engels, we have Rick Astley. And I want you to finish the rest of
:56:39. > :56:42.the song! I'm joking. Have you ever used song
:56:43. > :56:56.lyrics in your speeches? I am a terrible singer.
:56:57. > :57:02.I do have Rocky songs. During the election campaign. Until
:57:03. > :57:04.you couldn't stand to hear it any longer.
:57:05. > :57:11.They still voted me in. What about you?
:57:12. > :57:13.I quoted Katy Perry, if you stand for nothing, you will fall for
:57:14. > :57:21.everything. In what context?
:57:22. > :57:26.All politics. Would you say that encapsulates your political beliefs?
:57:27. > :57:30.I actually believe in something so I don't fall for everything.
:57:31. > :57:35.Are there lyrics that encapsulates everything you believe in?
:57:36. > :57:44.If I think of one song which is on my phone, it is the Bob Dylan song,
:57:45. > :57:49.the Lonesome death of Hattie Carroll. A grim song about a
:57:50. > :57:57.chambermaid who is beaten by a rich man, the rich man gets off,...
:57:58. > :58:06.A barrel of laughs. A beautiful song. The lyrics are incredible.
:58:07. > :58:13.What about, oh, Jeremy Corbyn... It fits, doesn't it?
:58:14. > :58:23.We're using for me? I don't think so. What about you, a
:58:24. > :58:28.song for Theresa May? I will have to think about that one.
:58:29. > :58:34.You want the Tory Party to be a bit more grassroots.
:58:35. > :58:39.Yes, we need an anthem to transform our party. We need a benign version
:58:40. > :58:49.of what you have got. You may remember at the beginning of
:58:50. > :58:53.the show, we had an argument over the respective pay of male and
:58:54. > :58:59.female workers. We have looked into it. There is
:59:00. > :59:04.nothing to support your claim that women apprentices earn more, the
:59:05. > :59:09.figure Jess Creighton, ?5 85 the men. That is from a young women's
:59:10. > :59:17.trust report which suggests women apprentices are paid ?2000 a year
:59:18. > :59:21.less, but not necessarily in the same apprenticeship roles, it is to
:59:22. > :59:27.do with sectors, men and women tend to go into.
:59:28. > :59:29.Let me find where I thought I had seen this and I will send it on to
:59:30. > :59:33.you. Send it into us and we will get you
:59:34. > :59:38.want to talk about it again. I totally vindicated.
:59:39. > :59:43.Except for the bit about the same roles.
:59:44. > :59:45.There is a sectoral problem which was lacking in the industrial
:59:46. > :59:49.strategy. Save it for the next...
:59:50. > :59:55.The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now.
:59:56. > :59:58.I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big political stories
:59:59. > :00:11.You've been weird ever since we came down here. There's something.
:00:12. > :00:16.Why don't you see what's staring you straight in the face?