:00:39. > :00:41.Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
:00:42. > :00:42.The government's flagship Brexit Bill
:00:43. > :00:46.begins what could be its arduous journey through Parliament.
:00:47. > :00:52.and some Conservative MPs could also make trouble along the way.
:00:53. > :00:55.So just how much ground will the Prime Minister have to give?
:00:56. > :00:57.Meanwhile the EU's chief negotiator says
:00:58. > :01:01.have a different Brexit deal from the rest of the UK,
:01:02. > :01:04.and calls for a "unique solution" to the question of the Irish border.
:01:05. > :01:10.Are the people running England's universities paid too much?
:01:11. > :01:12.Or do we need big salaries to ensure our higher education
:01:13. > :01:15.sector is one of the best in the world?
:01:16. > :01:18.Universities minister Jo Johnson joins us live.
:01:19. > :01:20.And, after seven years of Conservative reforms,
:01:21. > :01:36.and with us for the whole of the programme today
:01:37. > :01:39.the founder and headteacher of the Michaela Community School,
:01:40. > :01:41.which is a free school in north London.
:01:42. > :01:53.Now, today is a big day in Westminster as the debate begins
:01:54. > :01:56.on the government's flagship Brexit Bill.
:01:57. > :02:02.People like you would perhaps like to see education at the forefront of
:02:03. > :02:07.politics, as it was under Tony Blair and the coalition, has it been
:02:08. > :02:10.sidelined? Yes, I understand why, but I'm a headmistress, and so I
:02:11. > :02:14.think that it is the most important thing in the world, one day soon I
:02:15. > :02:18.hope to see it back in the limelight. As it had an impact, the
:02:19. > :02:22.fact that "Brexit" is much more in the thoughts of the government and
:02:23. > :02:26.politicians in general? It has meant that reforms have slightly stalled
:02:27. > :02:30.in that sense, but the old... The reforms put in at the start... But
:02:31. > :02:35.keep going, we have seen the impact of that in the exams this year. That
:02:36. > :02:39.will happen again next year, going through all the subjects. Still
:02:40. > :02:43.exciting times ahead, I am not too worried. We will be discussing that
:02:44. > :02:50.later on in the programme with you. Now, as I've said, today
:02:51. > :02:53.is a big day in Westminster on the government's
:02:54. > :02:55.flagship Brexit Bill. The European Union Withdrawal Bill,
:02:56. > :02:58.as its known, begins its second It's a major piece of legislation
:02:59. > :03:03.which is designed to give legal So what exactly will MPs
:03:04. > :03:07.be discussing in the first parliamentary test for
:03:08. > :03:08.the government's Brexit policy is to repeal the European
:03:09. > :03:13.Communities Act of 1972. And convert thousands of pieces
:03:14. > :03:16.of EU legislation into UK law. But some controversial elements
:03:17. > :03:18.have meant the Bill can't expect an easy passage
:03:19. > :03:25.through the Commons. Many MPs are concerned
:03:26. > :03:27.about how the government will exercise so-called
:03:28. > :03:29."Henry VIII" powers which would allow ministers to make
:03:30. > :03:32.changes to laws to implement any withdrawal agreement
:03:33. > :03:33.after Brexit, sometimes without
:03:34. > :03:42.a vote in Parliament. Labour has already
:03:43. > :03:43.issued a three-line whip And the Lib Dems and SNP
:03:44. > :03:52.will join them. who are critical of the government's
:03:53. > :04:03.Brexit policy, have ruled out a rebellion
:04:04. > :04:05.over the Bill's second reading when a vote
:04:06. > :04:07.is taken on Monday. But they may take the opportunity
:04:08. > :04:10.to join with members of the Opposition in causing trouble
:04:11. > :04:15.over a so-called "programme motion". Ministers wants to limit debate
:04:16. > :04:18.in during the Bill's Committee stage but many MPs believe there needs
:04:19. > :04:26.to be more time for scrutiny. And even if it clears that hurdle
:04:27. > :04:29.the government faces the prospect of seeing hundreds of amendments tabled
:04:30. > :04:31.when the committee stage begins in the Commons after
:04:32. > :04:33.the party conferences. Well earlier the Brexit Minister,
:04:34. > :04:34.Steve Baker, told the House of Commons why
:04:35. > :04:44.the powers granted to the government The power was in the bill have been
:04:45. > :04:49.drawn widely in order that this country, this Parliament, can meet
:04:50. > :04:53.the imperative of delivering a working statute book on the day that
:04:54. > :04:56.we leave the European Union, delivering certainty, continuity and
:04:57. > :05:01.control, and on the area raised by the honourable gentleman, to ferment
:05:02. > :05:02.a withdrawal agreement that allows us to leave the European Union
:05:03. > :05:04.smoothly and successfully. Well in a moment I'll be
:05:05. > :05:06.talking to representatives But first, Lizzie Glinka
:05:07. > :05:18.is on College Green soaking Set the scene for us? Soaking up is
:05:19. > :05:24.right, we are having a glorious morning, here on the green, with all
:05:25. > :05:27.the rain, you can see behind me, excitement building, broadcasters
:05:28. > :05:34.from around the world, see NN, BBC colleagues over there, and one lone
:05:35. > :05:37.protester... Who arrived in the last few moments... We don't know if more
:05:38. > :05:42.of those will be turning out in the next hour or so. At the moment, one
:05:43. > :05:49.chap, you can see, getting plenty of attention from the cameras over
:05:50. > :05:55.there... (!) -- CNN. We can speak with Stephen Geffen, from the SNP,
:05:56. > :06:00.what is the problem with this Bill? A large number of problems, which go
:06:01. > :06:05.back to the blank page of vote to leave, the government not doing its
:06:06. > :06:10.job over the last 15 months, but the problem, delegated legislation,
:06:11. > :06:13.handing over rights of human rights and devilish and process. This is a
:06:14. > :06:16.huge power grab, the biggest we have seen, it was meant to be about
:06:17. > :06:24.democracy and taking back control but we are handing back control to
:06:25. > :06:29.Tory governments. This has been called a fuss about nothing,
:06:30. > :06:33.devolved powers will be discussed, it is even in the notes of the bill.
:06:34. > :06:36.Iain Duncan Smith does not have good form on this! He wants to leave the
:06:37. > :06:40.European Union regardless of the consequences to the economy,
:06:41. > :06:44.opportunities for young people. If you look at the Bill, in the value
:06:45. > :06:48.have areas, over devolved competencies, it says the Scottish
:06:49. > :06:52.Parliament and the other devolved administrations cannot legislate
:06:53. > :06:56.over areas that are coming back. That seems unreasonable. Monday is
:06:57. > :06:58.the 20th anniversary of the devil is in referendum which established the
:06:59. > :07:02.Scottish Parliament, seems like a real shame that on the day that we
:07:03. > :07:07.commemorate the 20th anniversary, that is the day that Westminster is
:07:08. > :07:10.taking back control from devolved administrations, reversing the
:07:11. > :07:13.process. Not just a concern of the SNP and the Scottish parliament but
:07:14. > :07:19.also Labour, the Welsh assembly, a whole range of organisations and
:07:20. > :07:26.political parties really worried about this. Really worried but you
:07:27. > :07:30.touched on the nub of it, mentioning that IDS just wants to leave, you
:07:31. > :07:35.wanted to remain, are you not really just trying to hold this up, trying
:07:36. > :07:39.to cause trouble, delay it, which would cause big problems for
:07:40. > :07:42."Brexit" in the long term? The Scottish Government is the only one
:07:43. > :07:48.that has come up with a compromise, Scotland voted 2-1 to remain part of
:07:49. > :07:53.the EU, England voted to leave, so shall the compromise. Ruth Davidson,
:07:54. > :07:55.Tory leader, even said, look at the single market after the referendum
:07:56. > :07:59.last year. We are looking at compromise. What is the point in
:08:00. > :08:04.having a parliament and me coming down to Westminster if we do not
:08:05. > :08:08.scrutinise the work, not least on this bill which will have an impact
:08:09. > :08:12.on all of us, on the opportunities for young people, the environment,
:08:13. > :08:18.economy, human, big areas. Our job is to scrutinise. The government
:08:19. > :08:21.seems to be scared, it is striking, it does not have the courage of
:08:22. > :08:25.conviction to put these bills before Parliament and that is something I
:08:26. > :08:29.find really worrying. Lot of these can be at committee stage, talking
:08:30. > :08:33.about thousands of pieces of legislation here, if we don't just
:08:34. > :08:38.get this done, it is going to completely, it will have a huge
:08:39. > :08:42.impact on the negotiations and... For all the reasons I have set out,
:08:43. > :08:46.areas like human rights, the devil is in process, the government has
:08:47. > :08:51.got the bill wrong. If I think the government has got the bill wrong, I
:08:52. > :08:54.vote against it, that is my job, the government should not be scared of
:08:55. > :08:58.scrutiny. Hearing all this stuff about democracy, bring back control,
:08:59. > :09:02.actually, the Tories want to bring control back to them and Whitehall
:09:03. > :09:05.and make all the decisions. That is not the way it should work with a
:09:06. > :09:09.minority government, party should be pulling together and working
:09:10. > :09:11.together, this is bigger than any one party. OK, thank you very much.
:09:12. > :09:15.Interesting day ahead. I'm joined now by the
:09:16. > :09:17.Conservative MP Mark Harper, formerly Chief Whip
:09:18. > :09:19.under David Cameron, and by the Shadow Brexit
:09:20. > :09:28.Minister, Jenny Chapman. Welcome to the both of you. Can you
:09:29. > :09:31.tell us why people should not be worried about ministers having
:09:32. > :09:35.discretionary powers to change UK laws? For a start, Stephen has his
:09:36. > :09:40.facts wrong, the reason they should not, this is relevant, powers are
:09:41. > :09:43.constrained, in the bill that is going to be put before parliament
:09:44. > :09:48.getting a second reading today, it specifically does not allow
:09:49. > :09:51.ministers to use their delegated powers to change anything about the
:09:52. > :09:56.Human Rights Act or equivalent legislation. Can you change any
:09:57. > :10:00.primary legislation without...? Some of it. You can change coronary
:10:01. > :10:03.legislation normally scrutinised by Parliament... It is not
:10:04. > :10:07.unprecedented, worth remembering, the secondary legislation, brought
:10:08. > :10:13.into British law by this Bill, most of it was of course passed into law
:10:14. > :10:16.by exactly the same process. Layer upon layer of laws and legislation
:10:17. > :10:21.and that makes it difficult to unpicked, so let be clear, you can
:10:22. > :10:24.change primary legislation... I take your point it is not without
:10:25. > :10:28.precedent, but it is not usual practice, but Parliament --
:10:29. > :10:32.Parliament will be able to scrutinise usually. Because shooting
:10:33. > :10:35.committee of the House of Lords, not known for being terribly keen on
:10:36. > :10:39.leaving the European Union, was clear: it said, you would not
:10:40. > :10:42.normally do this but it excepted that because of the volume of
:10:43. > :10:46.legislation that needs to be brought onto the statute book by March 2019,
:10:47. > :10:52.so we have a smooth exit and people have legal certainty, practically,
:10:53. > :10:56.you have got to do it in this way, and when the bill was published, the
:10:57. > :11:00.government should constrain the scope of that, and the government
:11:01. > :11:04.has done that, so for example, cannot pass laws, to change taxes,
:11:05. > :11:08.change the Human Rights Act, create criminal offences. It is quite
:11:09. > :11:17.constrain. The government should listen to the Constitution
:11:18. > :11:19.committee. I have got what they have said, and the Constitution
:11:20. > :11:23.committee, so said David Davies, said this is the way it has to be
:11:24. > :11:26.done, in the way you have described, secondary legislation. The House of
:11:27. > :11:30.Lords Constitution committee report says, it is a source of considerable
:11:31. > :11:34.regret that the bill is drafted in a way that renders scrutiny very
:11:35. > :11:38.difficult and multiple and fundamental constitutional questions
:11:39. > :11:43.are left unanswered. So I'm not sure the House of Lords Constitution
:11:44. > :11:48.committee is signed up to the way government is going to actually
:11:49. > :11:53.implement this Bill? It said it was not ideal but also said it was... It
:11:54. > :11:57.said more than it was not ideal. 12,000 pieces of legislation into
:11:58. > :12:01.British law, so that there is certainty and clarity for business
:12:02. > :12:04.and individuals, there is no other practical way of doing it, ministers
:12:05. > :12:09.have been very clear, this is about copying legislation across, making
:12:10. > :12:14.small changes if you require it on the detail. If you are changing the
:12:15. > :12:18.policy intention, there will be primary legislation that will go
:12:19. > :12:20.through the full parliamentary scrutiny process, that is why people
:12:21. > :12:26.should not be concerned. The important point, the time frame, the
:12:27. > :12:30.clock is ticking, to actually do this Bill and go through every
:12:31. > :12:33.single piece of legislation and do it by Parliament so that they would
:12:34. > :12:37.have time to scrutinise it would take years and we would not take the
:12:38. > :12:44.time frame. But if I can make the point first of all, we are 15 months
:12:45. > :12:47.since the vote to leave and the government has been quite blase
:12:48. > :12:54.about taking time out in that we had the delay for the court case, then
:12:55. > :12:57.another... Presumably you wanted... That was not the choice of the
:12:58. > :13:01.government. They chose to fight it, which took months more, they also
:13:02. > :13:06.had a general election, which they probably now regrets... All of this
:13:07. > :13:10.has delayed progress. Our objection with this Bill... We look very
:13:11. > :13:16.carefully at the House of Lords report, it was very clear, the chair
:13:17. > :13:21.has been very clear, that if this were just a case of allowing
:13:22. > :13:25.ministers to implement technical changes, we would not be having this
:13:26. > :13:32.discussion. And what we want to see is a removal of the ability of
:13:33. > :13:36.ministers to make decisions by diktats on primary legislation. So
:13:37. > :13:40.it will take years, to do what you are suggesting will take longer than
:13:41. > :13:44.two years. It does not need to, it does not need to, Parliament needs
:13:45. > :13:48.to do its job, we are prepared to devote the time that is needed, the
:13:49. > :13:52.government does not have a new Rafael agenda at this moment,
:13:53. > :13:56.Parliament is not overwhelmed with legislation, we would devote as much
:13:57. > :14:02.time... I did the mathematics, if Parliament sat 365 days a year, it
:14:03. > :14:07.would take... You would have to go through 33 pieces of legislation
:14:08. > :14:11.every day, over that period... But you don't want to do everything. You
:14:12. > :14:16.would not be scrutinising it very well. But we would be doing a better
:14:17. > :14:20.job then we were going to be. A lot of people don't want us to leave,
:14:21. > :14:24.this is delaying tactics, they don't want us to leave or do not want this
:14:25. > :14:27.done sensibly. Dominic Grieve, former Attorney General, he says
:14:28. > :14:33.this Bill six to confer powers on the government to carry out "Brexit"
:14:34. > :14:36.in breach of constitutional principles in the way that no
:14:37. > :14:40.sovereign parliament would allow, is he one of those seeking to frustrate
:14:41. > :14:44.and delay? I don't agree with the analysis he has set out, I have
:14:45. > :14:47.looked at the bill carefully, and I have done that before we start
:14:48. > :14:50.debating in Parliament and it does not. The powers that will go to
:14:51. > :14:55.ministers are constrained, they are all ultimately reviewable in the
:14:56. > :15:02.courts. Ministers will have that in mind. If you are going to get
:15:03. > :15:06.legislation all statute books so you get a smooth exit and certainty for
:15:07. > :15:10.people, this is the sensible, practical way. Let's put the
:15:11. > :15:15.scenario to you, Jenny, let's say that you were able to scrutinise, or
:15:16. > :15:19.you were able to take more time over individual pieces of legislation and
:15:20. > :15:24.you hit the deadline, March, 2019: what would happen to the country
:15:25. > :15:28.when all those laws were not on statute books? We agree there needs
:15:29. > :15:32.to be a mechanism to align laws, we agree with that. In that time frame?
:15:33. > :15:36.We said in manifesto that the government is going about this and
:15:37. > :15:40.the particular bill was wrong and we would oppose it, we would introduce
:15:41. > :15:42.a different way of going about it. What is the different way of going
:15:43. > :15:53.about it? It's taken Labour a long time to get
:15:54. > :15:56.to this position deciding to oppose during the passage of this Bill.
:15:57. > :16:01.What would you do if you were in Government? That's not correct. We
:16:02. > :16:07.said when this Bill was first published we set out our reasons for
:16:08. > :16:10.opposing it. We wrote to David Davis saying what they were. If he could
:16:11. > :16:14.provide movement on this we wouldn't oppose. What is this bit of
:16:15. > :16:19.movement? We want Parliament to be properly involved. We don't like
:16:20. > :16:25.it... How? What the Government's going to do on Tuesday, it's going
:16:26. > :16:28.to setp committees That will be looking at delegated legislation
:16:29. > :16:32.committees looking at these instruments through The Bill. The
:16:33. > :16:37.Government has no majority in Parliament. But it is attempting to
:16:38. > :16:40.make sure it has a Conservative majority on every single one of
:16:41. > :16:44.these committees. That is not right that the Government should have the
:16:45. > :16:50.power to make decisions on things like workers' rights, holiday pay
:16:51. > :16:53.for my constituents in the committee room with the majority not in
:16:54. > :17:00.Parliament. Why should we trust you on that basis? First of all, Jenny's
:17:01. > :17:05.admitted Parliament will actually be view nighing these pieces. No,
:17:06. > :17:10.committee. That's different. That's how Parliament normally proceeds.
:17:11. > :17:13.We've been clear. If you're going to transfer this volume of legislation
:17:14. > :17:19.to have the certainty, you need to do it in this way. If the Labour
:17:20. > :17:25.Party thinks The Bill should be changed, it is open to them to do
:17:26. > :17:30.that at committee stage. If they are opposing The Bill in principle?
:17:31. > :17:34.Which is what I asked To bring the law into British law you're saying
:17:35. > :17:40.we'll leave the EU in a chaotic position. They're not saying that.
:17:41. > :17:45.They are making a stand against it. They should deal with the detail...
:17:46. > :17:51.That's what we will decide to do Mark, with all #r79. You say there
:17:52. > :17:57.is going to be scrutiny. Why only eight days in committee stage. That
:17:58. > :18:00.is not very long. We've two days to debate the second reading of the
:18:01. > :18:05.bill. Eight days on the floor of the House of Commons is quite a long
:18:06. > :18:10.period of time. How long did the Maastrict Bill have? 23 days.
:18:11. > :18:15.European Communities Act in 1972 had 22 days. This Bill is literally
:18:16. > :18:21.taking the existing ledgestration and translating it into British law.
:18:22. > :18:25.It isn't making big policy changes or handing powers to another
:18:26. > :18:35.Parliament overseas as the mat tricked Bill did. Jenny, you say it
:18:36. > :18:39.gives them the possibility. What policy area has the Government
:18:40. > :18:45.independented will make those big policy changes? We believe they'll
:18:46. > :18:48.make changes to issues like workers' rights, environmental and consumer
:18:49. > :18:53.pro texts. We're very concerned about it. Cabinet members have
:18:54. > :18:57.indicated previously that would be their intention. It is too much to
:18:58. > :19:02.ask the British people to take on trust that a Government minister
:19:03. > :19:06.given that power now, unaccountably and free of scrutiny, would resist
:19:07. > :19:11.the urge to make those changes. Would you support a Government that
:19:12. > :19:16.tries to lessen and weaken workers' rights? No, the Prime Minister's
:19:17. > :19:20.clear we're doing no such thing. This is about getting British
:19:21. > :19:27.legislation into law as it is. Let's concentrate on the substance. We've
:19:28. > :19:30.done the practicalities. There could be a situation where important
:19:31. > :19:33.protections to Jenny Chapman, her party and supporters, come into
:19:34. > :19:36.play. And you would have the potential power, I'm not saying you
:19:37. > :19:41.would necessarily exercise it, but you would have the potential power
:19:42. > :19:44.to change those protections, weaken them in the eyes of the opposition.
:19:45. > :19:50.They wouldn't be able to do anything about it. We've been very clear if
:19:51. > :19:54.we want to change any substantial issues, that will be done through
:19:55. > :20:00.primary legislation. That's not what the bill allows. The bill allows you
:20:01. > :20:03.it to happen through a process. The last time it was defeated in
:20:04. > :20:08.Parliament was 38 years ago. This is the wrong way to go about it and it
:20:09. > :20:12.is anti-democratic. We can see pictures now on the screen from
:20:13. > :20:18.inside the Commons. The debate has started. The start of what is a
:20:19. > :20:22.significant moment in the passage of this Brexit Bill even if the
:20:23. > :20:25.Government doesn't lose the vote, despite the opposition voting
:20:26. > :20:30.against it on Monday, there will be a lot of wrangling through the
:20:31. > :20:33.committee stages when amendments could be put down bioponents to the
:20:34. > :20:40.Bill within the Tory Party and the opposition. Jenny Chapman,
:20:41. > :20:46.amendments? Do you have a raft to go? We will. I'm not going to tell
:20:47. > :20:52.you what they will be. Because? We have to wait until Monday. We will
:20:53. > :20:56.have amendments as well backbench members and other opposition
:20:57. > :21:00.parties. You will see Parliament assert itself over this process.
:21:01. > :21:04.Even if we don't win the vote on Monday, Parliament will not sit back
:21:05. > :21:09.and let this go through without challenge. As an observer, listening
:21:10. > :21:14.to debate at the start of this process and this particular piece of
:21:15. > :21:18.ledgestration, it is an important moment, it will unpick the European
:21:19. > :21:23.Communities Act set up with all those laws, what's your view? I
:21:24. > :21:27.worry about the internal strive. It is much easier to sort out issues at
:21:28. > :21:31.school between children. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. People will say there are
:21:32. > :21:37.similarities sometimes dealing with MPs? I worry because I feel this is
:21:38. > :21:43.the time for the country to bind together because we have to sort out
:21:44. > :21:48.this big thing with the EU. We normal, ordinary people look to you
:21:49. > :21:54.to solve it all. You all need to be friends. That way you can sort
:21:55. > :21:58.things out. No pressure No. You two are staying with us for a little
:21:59. > :22:00.longer. We're going to stick with the Brexit theme.
:22:01. > :22:03.the EU have published some of their position papers.
:22:04. > :22:08.We've learnt that the European Union wants Northern Ireland
:22:09. > :22:11.to have a different Brexit deal from the rest of the UK.
:22:12. > :22:14.And they want the UK to take responsibility for finding a "unique
:22:15. > :22:17.solution" so people can work, go to school or get medical
:22:18. > :22:19.treatment either side of the Irish border.
:22:20. > :22:21.Let's hear what Michel Barnier, the chief Brexit negotiator
:22:22. > :22:29.for the EU, has had to say just before we came on air.
:22:30. > :22:38.The solution for the border issue will need to be unique. It cannot
:22:39. > :22:45.preconfigure the future relationship between the European Union and the
:22:46. > :22:52.UK. It will require both sides to be flexible and creative. What I see in
:22:53. > :23:01.the UK's paper on Ireland and Northern Ireland worries me. The UK
:23:02. > :23:06.wants the EU to suspend the application of its customs union and
:23:07. > :23:13.its single market as what will be a new external border for the EU. And
:23:14. > :23:21.the UK wants to use Ireland as a kind of test case for the future
:23:22. > :23:28.EU/UK custom relations. This will not happen. Michel Barnier there.
:23:29. > :23:32.We've also heard this morning that the European Commission has been
:23:33. > :23:37.critical of David Davis, the Brexit Secretary. Suggested he displayed a
:23:38. > :23:40.lack of involvement which risked de are dicing the success of the
:23:41. > :23:42.negotiations after meeting him in July. Let's speak to our old friend,
:23:43. > :23:58.less of Tell us about the minutes published
:23:59. > :24:03.about David Davis's behaviour. I've two masses of paper in front of me.
:24:04. > :24:07.These are minutes of a meeting published yesterday, last night. But
:24:08. > :24:11.the meeting happened on 12th July. It was between Jean-Claude Juncker
:24:12. > :24:14.and all the other European Commissioners in that building and
:24:15. > :24:17.Michel Barnier, the chief negotiator. They were talking about
:24:18. > :24:24.progress in the first round of Brexit talks which happened in June.
:24:25. > :24:28.It's a bit old but the stuff that Jean-Claude Juncker and Michel
:24:29. > :24:31.Barnier says is striking. President Juncker expressed his concern,
:24:32. > :24:35.according to the minutes, about the question of the stability and
:24:36. > :24:41.accountability of the UK negotiator David Davis and his apparent lack of
:24:42. > :24:44.involvement in the process which risked jeopardising the success of
:24:45. > :24:50.the negotiations. That was something repeated by Michel Barnier earlier
:24:51. > :24:53.on in the discussion. I imagine some people think that's undiplomatic
:24:54. > :24:58.language the EU side have been using about David Davis there. The
:24:59. > :25:02.spokeswoman for the commission who's speaking earlier, said things had
:25:03. > :25:05.moved on since July. If we want add real picture about how things were
:25:06. > :25:11.going we should look forward to sets of minutes released in the future
:25:12. > :25:16.relevant to more recent meetings of the EU Commission. Michel Barnier
:25:17. > :25:22.was asked about this. He said he stood next to David Davis and paid
:25:23. > :25:29.tribute to how hard he's working. The European Commission trying very
:25:30. > :25:32.hard to put this document mind him. David Davis's homework's improved!
:25:33. > :25:35.What about these commission papers and the one regarding the border
:25:36. > :25:43.between Northern Ireland and Ireland? That's this other pile of
:25:44. > :25:48.papers here. The position papers. Stuff on public procurement,
:25:49. > :25:51.intellectual data. The one which got attention is the dialogue with the
:25:52. > :25:56.UK over what to do about the Irish border. In summary, it says to the
:25:57. > :26:02.UK you're responsible for coming up with solutions to this. You're the
:26:03. > :26:06.country leaving the EU. They propose there will be a unique solution,
:26:07. > :26:10.unique for Northern Ireland. In their words, does not preconfigure
:26:11. > :26:13.the solution for the ex-of the UK. Northern Ireland, because it is a
:26:14. > :26:18.special case, will get a special deal that will not be replicated for
:26:19. > :26:21.the rest of the UK in the rest of the final Brexit withdrawal
:26:22. > :26:26.agreement done with the EU. There's also going to be exceptions
:26:27. > :26:30.potentially written into that withdrawal agreement to allow what's
:26:31. > :26:35.called cross-border co-operation. In other words, that's written into the
:26:36. > :26:41.Good Friday Agreement where north and south collaborate on things like
:26:42. > :26:46.tourism, social securely, health u fisheries and transport and nudge.
:26:47. > :26:51.In other words, day-to-day life in Northern Ireland and the Republic of
:26:52. > :26:54.Ireland will carry on as normal. This that's another case where
:26:55. > :27:00.Northern Ireland will be an exception to what happens to the
:27:01. > :27:04.lest of the UK. It was really interesting listen to Michel Barnier
:27:05. > :27:09.in the conference. He is worried about what the UK's proposed. What
:27:10. > :27:13.it's proposing about an invisible border means it will jeopardise
:27:14. > :27:17.Ireland's place in the sing the mashed and that the UK might --
:27:18. > :27:21.single market and that the UK might be using it as a test case for the
:27:22. > :27:30.rest of the Brexit deal for the rest of the UK. Michel Barnier says that
:27:31. > :27:33.will not wash. One big area of agreement from both sides, that's
:27:34. > :27:38.maintaining the common travel area, the free movement of British and
:27:39. > :27:42.Irish people between Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and
:27:43. > :27:46.the UK. Both sides worked hashed to come up with an agreement that will
:27:47. > :27:50.be maintained. That will help unlock a lot of other issues Michel
:27:51. > :27:55.Barnier's talking about. Sorry it's so complicated. You're certainly not
:27:56. > :27:59.disengaged from the process. David Davis could learn a lot clearly from
:28:00. > :28:03.you. Enjoy the rest of those papers. Are both the commission and the UK
:28:04. > :28:08.Government just publishing these endless position papers. I think
:28:09. > :28:12.there were nine. Just to show they're doing something? They are
:28:13. > :28:15.part of the dialogue. Michel Barnier said he wanted the British
:28:16. > :28:19.Government to come up with some potential solutions for the
:28:20. > :28:21.Ireland/Northern Ireland border. We published a couple of suggestions in
:28:22. > :28:27.our position paper on Northern Ireland. We confirmed that we want
:28:28. > :28:30.the Good Friday Agreement to be embedded with the withdrawal
:28:31. > :28:35.agreement. I read that position paper. There's nothing in there that
:28:36. > :28:43.anybody would intrinsically disagree with. It doesn't actually... And
:28:44. > :28:47.there's been an admission also after that position paper that the
:28:48. > :28:51.technological solution that the UK Government hoped would be put in
:28:52. > :28:56.place is just not going to work. There still isn't any progress on
:28:57. > :29:01.what will happen to costumes which is what we're talking about and
:29:02. > :29:05.trade across the board he: We put forward proposals. The commission
:29:06. > :29:08.will respond to them. There's a clear agreement Northern Ireland,
:29:09. > :29:13.that relationship is very important. It is the only external border.
:29:14. > :29:19.There's a clear commitment O'Make that work. Details need to be done
:29:20. > :29:25.to get to a final agreement. Doesn't it show this idea of sequencing
:29:26. > :29:30.negotiations is not really working. You can't really discuss the future
:29:31. > :29:33.and status of that Irish border without including what will be the
:29:34. > :29:39.ultimate Free Trade Deal and customs? Isn't that the case? You're
:29:40. > :29:42.right. It is incredibly difficult. The phasing of this doesn't require
:29:43. > :29:48.completion of an agreement or things to be completely resolved. It
:29:49. > :29:53.requires significant progress. I think I have some sympathy for David
:29:54. > :29:58.Davis on the issue of Northern Ireland. To expect it to be resolved
:29:59. > :30:04.within the next couple of months is just not realistic. What I'm seeing
:30:05. > :30:07.is a huge amount of political will, actually, from Europe and from the
:30:08. > :30:11.UK Government and from the Irish Government to find a solution. It is
:30:12. > :30:16.not going to be easy. It probably will not be rest #068ed until, as
:30:17. > :30:20.you say, we get a clearer idea of what the future relationship on
:30:21. > :30:23.trade is going to be. Let's talk about Labour's position regarding
:30:24. > :30:31.the single market and customs union. It is now the policy, having gone
:30:32. > :30:35.through various met fofsh Sis, you'll stay in the sing the market
:30:36. > :30:41.and the customs union through the transition period. Tom Watson says
:30:42. > :30:46.that could be a permanent state f and Keir Starmer said remaining in
:30:47. > :30:53.the customs union could parliament ninetyly be a viable option? Is that
:30:54. > :30:57.the case? That you are going to be the party of free movement and
:30:58. > :31:00.submission to the European Court of Justice? the European Court of
:31:01. > :31:05.Justice? Our position is very clear, but what it is not is always the
:31:06. > :31:10.most simple, I accept that, we would like to stay in a transitional
:31:11. > :31:14.arrangement, for around two years, is realistic, and that would involve
:31:15. > :31:19.us remaining part of the single market, and the customs union, but
:31:20. > :31:21.it is time-limited, and only as a transitional period. So Tom Watson
:31:22. > :31:27.was wrong to suggest it could be permanent? I don't think he said
:31:28. > :31:31.exactly that. He did, on Newsnight. I saw it on Newsnight, he was
:31:32. > :31:35.answering three questions in one breath will stop he said it could be
:31:36. > :31:41.a permanent state. It could be but that is not our policy. We need a
:31:42. > :31:45.customs relationship with Europe where we do not have friction at
:31:46. > :31:49.borders and customs and tariffs, everyone wants that, even David
:31:50. > :31:53.Davis says he wants that, that is not a particularly radical thing to
:31:54. > :31:59.say. In fact it might be the same, as what the government is suggesting
:32:00. > :32:02.looking at, a customs union. What we want is a transitional deal, we are
:32:03. > :32:06.clear about that. Without that, you have a cliff edge, some Tory
:32:07. > :32:12.backbenchers are relaxed about that but we are not, and neither is
:32:13. > :32:16.business. The government is hinting, David Davis this morning, in Brexit
:32:17. > :32:19.questions, he was hinting that he is softening on the argument. He was
:32:20. > :32:23.not too far away from saying he agreed with us on this will stop do
:32:24. > :32:29.you agree? We have been clear that we want an increment agent period,
:32:30. > :32:31.you need to have the full transition, interestingly... You
:32:32. > :32:36.will be coming out of the single market? You need a period in which
:32:37. > :32:40.you will implement the arrangement that we reach for afterwards. You
:32:41. > :32:44.cannot do that... We have been clear, if you stay in the customs
:32:45. > :32:48.union, the single market, you submit to free movement, the court of
:32:49. > :32:51.justice, the whole point about the referendum was voters decided they
:32:52. > :32:55.did not want to submit to those things. We have been clear that you
:32:56. > :33:00.cannot go from being in the European Union to the final position, and
:33:01. > :33:05.that final deal, overnight, you have got to ferment it over a period of
:33:06. > :33:08.time. The Prime Minister is clear. Government is shifting because it
:33:09. > :33:11.realises it has too, because it would be crippling for British
:33:12. > :33:11.industry to have anything other than an
:33:12. > :33:19.interim arrangement, and on freedom of movement, allow me to say this,
:33:20. > :33:24.the Labour Party fully accepts that freedom of movement is ending and we
:33:25. > :33:29.need a new immigration system. It will need to end after we leave the
:33:30. > :33:33.European Union, March, 2019, after the transitional period, clearly, if
:33:34. > :33:40.you leave the single market, you leave freedom of movement. That is a
:33:41. > :33:43.time limited interim state, because there has been a lack of progress.
:33:44. > :33:50.Thank you both, very much. The question for today is
:33:51. > :33:54.what did grime artist Stormzy call Theresa May at the
:33:55. > :33:58.GQ Men of the Year awards? A) peng, B) bossman,
:33:59. > :34:05.C) mandem or D) paigon? At the end of the show, Katharine
:34:06. > :34:09.will give us the correct answer. Our guest of the day today,
:34:10. > :34:11.Katharine Birbalsingh, when she made a now famous speech
:34:12. > :34:15.to the Conservative conference. She declared that the
:34:16. > :34:17.education system was broken But how radical have they been and
:34:18. > :34:22.what's next for schools in England? We'll hear Katharine's
:34:23. > :34:28.thoughts in a moment. First Emma Vardy has
:34:29. > :34:40.been back to the classroom. Over the past six years the
:34:41. > :34:44.coalition and Conservative governments have tried to change
:34:45. > :34:47.education, with the introduction of free schools and academies and as
:34:48. > :34:51.students here have found out, a brand-new exam system. Much of this
:34:52. > :34:55.initiated by the former Education Secretary Michael Gove, who had a
:34:56. > :34:57.radical vision for schools and wanted to put a renewed focus back
:34:58. > :35:09.on core traditional subjects. His flagship policy was the
:35:10. > :35:12.introduction of free schools, which can be set up by groups of parents
:35:13. > :35:17.or organisations like charities and businesses but which would be funded
:35:18. > :35:22.by central government. Existing schools were encouraged to convert
:35:23. > :35:26.to become academies, giving them greater control over their
:35:27. > :35:31.curriculum, budget and staffing. It is possible to deliver a knowledge
:35:32. > :35:34.rich curriculum, demanding, two students from backgrounds who years
:35:35. > :35:37.ago would have been written off, and do that while reducing the workload.
:35:38. > :35:41.That is an incredibly powerful message into the system, sensible
:35:42. > :35:47.schools of all types should be following that direction. As of
:35:48. > :35:53.2016, 61% of secondary schools have become academies. And 15% of
:35:54. > :35:57.primaries. Controversial plans to force all schools to convert to
:35:58. > :36:02.academy status were abandoned after a U-turn, and now, only failing
:36:03. > :36:07.schools will be required to convert by 2022. These reforms have not won
:36:08. > :36:11.the confidence of teaching unions. We were told academies and free
:36:12. > :36:18.schools would transform standards, the fact of the matter is, over half
:36:19. > :36:23.of academies, Academy trusts, at secondary level, are underperforming
:36:24. > :36:27.or seriously underperforming. So what has happened is government has
:36:28. > :36:32.left education to the market and the market has failed to provide. Talk
:36:33. > :36:37.to the person next to you, right down one or two ideas. Since the
:36:38. > :36:43.1980s, pupils receive their grades for GCSEs in letters, Hayes and bees
:36:44. > :36:48.and so on. But from this summer, GCSEs switched to a numerical system
:36:49. > :36:53.with nine being the highest grade. -- As and Bs and so on. We spent
:36:54. > :36:58.five years learning one method of learning, and then hearing we were
:36:59. > :37:02.doing a new system, that was really... It was a strange thing to
:37:03. > :37:06.get used to. I thought I would be aiming for and a star, now I am
:37:07. > :37:14.aiming for a nine... Probably better than I would normally aim, as there
:37:15. > :37:16.is something to aim for. -- A*. The exams were substantially more
:37:17. > :37:21.demanding, the abolition of controlled assessment, all students
:37:22. > :37:25.taking English and maths for all exams, that was a complex and
:37:26. > :37:29.difficult change but it was handled very well and students will have
:37:30. > :37:35.felt well supported through it. The new format has faced opposition from
:37:36. > :37:40.some teachers. The impact has been one of complete confusion for
:37:41. > :37:45.parents and employers, who have not understood the new grading system,
:37:46. > :37:54.and for students, it has meant exams which are very very difficult, and
:37:55. > :37:57.which have very low threshold marks. This year, plans for the creation of
:37:58. > :38:01.a new wave of grammar schools in England were abandoned, after the
:38:02. > :38:06.Conservatives lost their majority in the election. And the Queen 's
:38:07. > :38:10.speech did not announce any legislation for education. There is
:38:11. > :38:11.something of a blank page when it comes to wear schools reform can go
:38:12. > :38:19.next. STUDIO: In 2010, you told the
:38:20. > :38:25.Conservative Party conference that the system is broken, do you stand
:38:26. > :38:31.by those comments? Yes, the reforms are very much, the reforms that are
:38:32. > :38:35.taking place, things are improving, it is always good to be climbing up,
:38:36. > :38:41.and that is where we are going. Do you think the system is still open?
:38:42. > :38:45.I think we have work to do, things are improving all the time. Right,
:38:46. > :38:50.you set up your own free school, what was that like as an experience?
:38:51. > :38:57.It was not easy, took us three years to set it up, in Wembley park, and
:38:58. > :39:03.we have got years seven, eight, nine and ten and in 2019 we will have
:39:04. > :39:06.GCSEs, and it is really exciting. Thank goodness for the free school
:39:07. > :39:10.movement because we would not exist without it. It has allowed us to do
:39:11. > :39:14.things differently, we very much believe in knowledge and explicit
:39:15. > :39:19.instruction, teachers standing at the front and teaching. We have
:39:20. > :39:23.seven or eight teachers every day from around the country, from
:39:24. > :39:26.Glasgow, they come all the way to see us and take ideas away and take
:39:27. > :39:35.them back to their own schools. Are you the poster girl for these
:39:36. > :39:39.Goveite reforms but I don't like to consider myself a poster girl for
:39:40. > :39:44.anything, I am a head Mitch is, but I am a believer in the changes that
:39:45. > :39:46.have taken place. -- I am a headmistress. These were created in
:39:47. > :39:50.part of the country where it was not needed, where there was not a
:39:51. > :39:52.shortage of places, these free schools, that this was an
:39:53. > :39:57.opportunity to hit out against the educational establishment rather
:39:58. > :40:01.than bolstering and improving conditions and grades in existing
:40:02. > :40:07.schools. That has been levelled. Grades... That has happened, in
:40:08. > :40:11.existing schools? Yes, I mean... Competition is always a good thing,
:40:12. > :40:13.and innovation is always a good thing, what the free school movement
:40:14. > :40:17.has managed to do is allow innovation to happen, not just at
:40:18. > :40:24.Michaela Community School, we believe in knowledge, other free
:40:25. > :40:30.schools, like School 21, have different ideas, it has allowed
:40:31. > :40:34.diversity to come into the education established in. Not to the detriment
:40:35. > :40:39.of schools who say that they are losing good pupils to schools like
:40:40. > :40:44.yours. Why would that be the place. -- case. We have to compete with
:40:45. > :40:47.local schools, and while we are popular, there are other schools
:40:48. > :40:52.around us that are just as popular. Has that revolution stalled, since
:40:53. > :40:57.Michael Gove left the department? I think that if the case, he loved
:40:58. > :41:02.education. And I think that was his thing. Having said that, the
:41:03. > :41:07.Conservative Party have been backing those reforms and making them
:41:08. > :41:11.happen. Do you think there is quite the momentum that there was before?
:41:12. > :41:16.No. The government pledged ?500 million for 140 more free schools in
:41:17. > :41:20.the manifesto, that is looking less likely to happen. They need to boost
:41:21. > :41:29.other areas of the education budget, are you disappointed? No, I do
:41:30. > :41:33.not... I do not feel either way, as long as free schools are still
:41:34. > :41:35.around to happen, I think that is what is important, for the reasons I
:41:36. > :41:41.was saying about diversity and innovation. It allows us to find out
:41:42. > :41:47.what works. The point about these reforms, and exam reform and so one,
:41:48. > :41:51.is that... We need to find out what works and we need to be interested
:41:52. > :41:54.in finding that out. What do you say about the criticisms that some free
:41:55. > :41:59.schools have been self-selecting, they do not select by exam entry but
:42:00. > :42:03.self-selecting in the way they have their catchment area, or by the
:42:04. > :42:08.curriculum, because they have the freedom, to make Latin compulsory,
:42:09. > :42:11.for instance, or do mind high levels of music, do you think there is a
:42:12. > :42:16.strong element of self-selection, in other words, getting better
:42:17. > :42:18.performing students to come in in the first place. They cannot do
:42:19. > :42:23.that, they have to follow the admissions code like every other
:42:24. > :42:26.school. They have more freedom in how they set out catchment area and
:42:27. > :42:30.curriculum, you can be self-selecting. For instance, we at
:42:31. > :42:33.Michaela Community School have a lottery, people apply, then the
:42:34. > :42:40.council does the admissions, just like the council does the admissions
:42:41. > :42:45.of the local schools. We get a pretty standard crop of kids from
:42:46. > :42:48.the local area. I don't recognise what you are saying, certainly not
:42:49. > :42:53.with regard to Michaela Community School. What about criticism of
:42:54. > :42:55.occasions and changes to qualification and grading system,
:42:56. > :43:07.why change it again, what was old with the old A*-D? He says he would
:43:08. > :43:11.like to go for the very best, that young man, I admire him, children
:43:12. > :43:24.are being pushed to their potential. Which he is now, last year, for
:43:25. > :43:27.instance, 5.7% of children got A*s, the great creep has been taking
:43:28. > :43:34.place over years, it was important to do something. -- grade creep. And
:43:35. > :43:41.that has also enabled all subjects to matter, what I mean is before, we
:43:42. > :43:43.were looking at only five A-C, schools were under pressure to make
:43:44. > :43:47.sure they could deliver on English and maths, they may pull them out of
:43:48. > :43:52.other subjects and give them extra lessons. Aren't they the most
:43:53. > :43:55.important? Yes, but you do not want that to be to the detriment of your
:43:56. > :44:00.other subjects, where as when all the other different subjects are
:44:01. > :44:05.being counted, and this progress allows that to happen, it allows all
:44:06. > :44:11.subject to began to, it is complex, but it allows them to be counted,
:44:12. > :44:16.also not just the grade boundary of D-C, that was being looked at,
:44:17. > :44:23.schools will concentrate on that. Moving a 72 and eight minsters as
:44:24. > :44:32.much as moving a three and so, it changes, changes schools ways of
:44:33. > :44:38.doing things. -- moving a seven to an eight means test as much as
:44:39. > :44:43.moving a three to pay four. Every child counts, that is a good thing.
:44:44. > :44:47.What about vocational education, you focus on core academic subject, as
:44:48. > :44:51.we would call them, what about vocational education, shouldn't that
:44:52. > :44:55.be on the next? Say we do, we also give two hours a week of Michaela
:44:56. > :45:01.Community School and two hours a week of -- at Michaela Community
:45:02. > :45:06.School, we give two hours a week of music and two hours a week of art.
:45:07. > :45:12.My own opinion on vocational is that there is not enough especially after
:45:13. > :45:16.age 16, provision for that. There is 8000 apprenticeships across the
:45:17. > :45:20.country for construction, 8000...! That is it! Absolutely we push the
:45:21. > :45:23.university but there will be some pupils who want to do
:45:24. > :45:27.apprenticeships and go into other fields. I do wish the government
:45:28. > :45:31.would look at that and make more provision and put more funding into
:45:32. > :45:35.technical and vocational. We will stick with education.
:45:36. > :45:37.The government says English universities could be fined
:45:38. > :45:39.if their leaders are unable to justify salaries above that
:45:40. > :45:43.A new regulator is to be set up to determine whether university leaders
:45:44. > :45:46.The Universities Minister, Jo Johnson, was speaking
:45:47. > :45:54.I do not want to read about VC pay in the newspapers
:45:55. > :46:01.These headlines raise fears that student fees are not being used
:46:02. > :46:05.efficiently and that governance processes, including, but not
:46:06. > :46:10.limited to remuneration committees, are not working effectively.
:46:11. > :46:13.This is why I've repeatedly urged the sector, through guidance
:46:14. > :46:18.to HEFCE, to show restraint in levels of senior pay.
:46:19. > :46:22.We do need demonstrable action now to protect value for money
:46:23. > :46:25.for students and taxpayers in the future to ensure that
:46:26. > :46:29.vice-chancellor pay levels are seen as fair and justified.
:46:30. > :46:42.There's been criticism of what you said, as always when Government
:46:43. > :46:48.ministers stand up. People think you've taken too hard a line on
:46:49. > :46:54.this. If you look at the University of Oxford. The vice lance letter
:46:55. > :46:58.being paid ?350,000. Is it fair to say the vice-chancellor is being
:46:59. > :47:04.paid too much? We're not setting a pay cap. We are requiring
:47:05. > :47:07.institutions who want to pay over 150,000 provide the new regulator
:47:08. > :47:11.with evidence supporting the need to do so. It is really important in an
:47:12. > :47:16.environment in which students are paying for their own fees and
:47:17. > :47:20.taxpayers are injecting roughly 70% of the money into that suss Tim
:47:21. > :47:25.there's demonstrable efficiency across the higher education system.
:47:26. > :47:33.This is minimum requirements of accountability. Do you think
:47:34. > :47:38.?350,000 is too big a salary? It is a salary which needs to be
:47:39. > :47:45.justified. Oxford and Cambridge have come out as the top two universities
:47:46. > :47:48.in the world according to thetime survey and significant increases in
:47:49. > :47:56.their income, it is a major export. Why are you trying to kick them?
:47:57. > :48:02.We're requiring accountability and transparency for for taxpayers.
:48:03. > :48:05.Rhetoric is important. In this era, when you're looking at pay
:48:06. > :48:11.generally, you're saying these people don't deserve it? No, we're
:48:12. > :48:17.calling for restraint in the system. Pockets of our higher education
:48:18. > :48:23.system have generated negative publicity because of big increases
:48:24. > :48:26.in pay. It may not be typical across the system. We need to make sure
:48:27. > :48:29.remuneration committees are independent. So people have
:48:30. > :48:34.confidence in the way money's being used. When will we see results on
:48:35. > :48:42.this? It sounds like a consultation going to a regulator. If you wanted
:48:43. > :48:47.to reduce pay, do it? Universities are autonomous organisations. We
:48:48. > :48:52.passed a law bringing in the office for students which has power to
:48:53. > :48:57.ensure efficiency and proper use of resources. The office will be
:48:58. > :49:01.consulting shortly on guidance it will issue to the sector on getting
:49:02. > :49:05.accountability to rue mine ration committees. We need them to be
:49:06. > :49:10.independent so confidence grows in the system zblment in two years'
:49:11. > :49:16.time, nothing could change and these salaries stay the same, rightly or
:49:17. > :49:23.wrongly. We want the salaries to be justifiable. Transparency is a
:49:24. > :49:26.powerful towel. There is a perception committees are not
:49:27. > :49:33.operating transparently. This will change. It may be an important issue
:49:34. > :49:37.as far as you are concerned. In a way, isn't this the Government
:49:38. > :49:41.trying to deflect attention away from the real issues that became
:49:42. > :49:46.quite big talking points during the General Election, tuition fees and
:49:47. > :49:49.student loans. If there are changes to vice-chancellor's pay, it won't
:49:50. > :49:53.result in lower fees for anyone? It is really important everyone feels
:49:54. > :49:57.confident their investments whether it is the taxpayers or students'
:49:58. > :50:02.investments in higher education is worth while. The Government's
:50:03. > :50:06.committing 70% of the communities income to higher education. Why are
:50:07. > :50:10.fees going to go up because the rate of inflation's going up next year.
:50:11. > :50:16.Never mind about the pay going to vice-chancellors. . You've said
:50:17. > :50:21.that. What about fees? The return on higher education is enormous for
:50:22. > :50:25.students through it. Life time earnings ?250,000 higher. Higher
:50:26. > :50:29.education fees have to be set against the benefits they generate
:50:30. > :50:35.for the individual and society and the economy at large. Something has
:50:36. > :50:38.to finance higher education. We are sharing the burden between the
:50:39. > :50:45.individual studentant general taxpayer. 6.1% increase will be the
:50:46. > :50:49.interest rate on a student loan. That's extraordinarily high. Let's
:50:50. > :50:55.look at the interest rate. It is paid in the repayment period only by
:50:56. > :51:01.the highest earners. 2 and 5% of graduates. If think are earning over
:51:02. > :51:06.?42,000. That represents a cross-subsidy into the system for
:51:07. > :51:12.lower easterners. If you want to reduce the interest rate, you're
:51:13. > :51:19.removing a cross subsidy from those earning above ?42,000 to the lowest.
:51:20. > :51:23.Why is the interest rate set at RPI? That is the higher rate of inflation
:51:24. > :51:28.but everything you pay out as a Government is at CPI? This is an
:51:29. > :51:33.historical feature of the system. It doesn't make it write. How do you
:51:34. > :51:36.justify you're charging on student loans a higher rate of inflation
:51:37. > :51:40.than you, as Government ministers, pay out on? We keep the student
:51:41. > :51:45.finance system under review to make sure it is fair and effective. We'll
:51:46. > :51:49.continue to do so. Under review is meaningless. Every Government says
:51:50. > :51:56.everything is under review. Is it fair or isn't it? The overall
:51:57. > :51:59.student finance system is fair. It enables more students from
:52:00. > :52:07.disadvantaged background than ever before. You're 52% more likely to go
:52:08. > :52:12.to university to a highly selective institution. Not just low tariff
:52:13. > :52:17.institutions. It is even the most pretingious. According to the
:52:18. > :52:24.statistics, the gap between the most and least advantaged students has
:52:25. > :52:29.widened. There is a record level of people from disadvantaged going to
:52:30. > :52:34.university. The gap between the two hasn't narrowed. The participation
:52:35. > :52:39.rate, there are still more people going from advantaged backgrounds.
:52:40. > :52:41.There is work to do to continue to get more from disadvantaged
:52:42. > :52:45.backgrounds to university. Do you think the rates of interest on
:52:46. > :52:55.student loans is partly to blame? Have you to concede a 52% increase
:52:56. > :53:00.in disadvantaged areas is OK. What's your view about the rate of interest
:53:01. > :53:05.which is something that Conservative colleagues of Jo Johnson have
:53:06. > :53:10.raised? I suppose it has to be paid for. Sure, but this is the rate? The
:53:11. > :53:14.idea is the people who come out, because there are so few who will be
:53:15. > :53:18.able to pay back, you have to have higher rates. The thing is, what's
:53:19. > :53:23.really important is whether or not all of the courses that are being
:53:24. > :53:27.followed should be followed. When I was talking about apprenticeships
:53:28. > :53:30.and so on, perhaps some of the people doing these university
:53:31. > :53:35.courses should be on apprenticeships. We'd reduce the
:53:36. > :53:41.numbers at university. That is OK. It is OK for us to have vocational
:53:42. > :53:45.qualifications and for us to have technical colleges well funded. We
:53:46. > :53:51.want both. High quality technical routes. This is the whole purpose of
:53:52. > :53:58.the apprenticeship levy raising ?2.8 billion. It is the whole purpose of
:53:59. > :54:02.the skills reforms culminating in the introduction of T levels. We
:54:03. > :54:06.want great universities too. The economy of tomorrow will require
:54:07. > :54:11.high skilled graduates in bulk. Have you put more of a focus on
:54:12. > :54:16.encouraging more and more people to go to university than perhaps
:54:17. > :54:21.developing the apprentices and technical education at a fast enough
:54:22. > :54:24.rate? It is not a choice. We want world-class institutions. Oxford and
:54:25. > :54:29.Cambridge topped the global league tables. We also need brilliant
:54:30. > :54:34.technical and vocational routes. It is not an either or. Should foreign
:54:35. > :54:39.students be taken out of the immigration figures? This is a red
:54:40. > :54:44.herring. They are not capped. We welcome them in in Ltd numbers and
:54:45. > :54:48.can come and stay and work provided they get a graduate job. Should they
:54:49. > :54:55.be taken out of the immigration figures? We're the second most
:54:56. > :54:57.successful country attracting international students. Thank you.
:54:58. > :55:01.the beginning of the debate on the EU Withdrawal Bill.
:55:02. > :55:07.Lizzie Glinka is still on College Green for us.
:55:08. > :55:14.When I introduced the European Union Withdrawal Bill earlier this year, I
:55:15. > :55:17.said that was just the beginning of a process to ensure the decision
:55:18. > :55:22.made by the people in June is honoured. Today, we begin the next
:55:23. > :55:27.step in the historic process of honouring that decision. Put simply,
:55:28. > :55:33.this Bill is an essential step. It Des not take us out of the European
:55:34. > :55:37.Europe, that's a matter for the Article 50 process, it ensures on
:55:38. > :55:43.the day we leave businesses know where we stand. Workers' rights are
:55:44. > :55:50.upheld. Consumers are protected. This bill is to ensure as we leave,
:55:51. > :55:51.we do so in an orderly manner. David Davis flanked by Theresa May
:55:52. > :55:55.There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
:55:56. > :55:57.The question was: What did grime artist Stormzy call Theresa May
:55:58. > :56:10.So, Katharine, what's the correct answer?
:56:11. > :56:16.Well, lets have a look now at Jeremy Corbyn presenting Stormzy
:56:17. > :56:18.with his Solo Artist of the Year award earlier this week.
:56:19. > :56:22.Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome our Solo Artist of the Year,
:56:23. > :56:44.It's so incredible to be here with everyone.
:56:45. > :56:50.I do want to use this to say Theresa May is a paigon
:56:51. > :56:52.and you know what we're doing right now.
:56:53. > :56:59.Yeah, it's awkward, innit, when I say that, innit, yeah, trust.
:57:00. > :57:03.We're joined now by Jasmine Dotiwala, a former MTV presenter
:57:04. > :57:05.and music columnist and now manager of the Media Trust.
:57:06. > :57:12.Welcome to the programme. Tell us what does baying an mean?
:57:13. > :57:17.Untrustworthy. Someone who's betrayed people. Thank you. Jeremy
:57:18. > :57:22.Corbyn is a grime fan, pub haar with grime artists. We saw that at the
:57:23. > :57:27.election with grime for Corbyn trending. Is it too early to talk
:57:28. > :57:31.about a grime vote? It's interesting with Jeremy Corbyn and the grime
:57:32. > :57:34.scene. Everyone thinks young people are voting for Labour and love
:57:35. > :57:37.Labour. It is Jeremy Corbyn they resonate with. Jeremy Corbyn's
:57:38. > :57:43.strong-willed, has a strength of character. That resonates with them.
:57:44. > :57:47.If you think about the way the grime music scene's been criticised and
:57:48. > :57:52.judged, it is similar to Jeremy Corbyn. They're criticised the way
:57:53. > :57:56.they dress, company they keep. Why do they relate to a bearded man of
:57:57. > :58:01.his age who's vegetarian, maybe about to become a vegan, from
:58:02. > :58:07.Islington. You say vegan. A lot of the grime scene are vegan and
:58:08. > :58:11.vegetarians. Lots of connection. Young people are inclusive. Young
:58:12. > :58:16.people tell us people like Jeremy Corbyn who are not about war and
:58:17. > :58:19.nuclear weapons and inclusivity represent who they are. This genre
:58:20. > :58:26.of music emerged in London. Is it still very much a London scene? No.
:58:27. > :58:31.National, each global. Grime music's taken over the word. Everything they
:58:32. > :58:35.stands for reflects their society and stories. The difference is at
:58:36. > :58:39.the moment politicians are looking at the grime scene but not acting as
:58:40. > :58:41.much. That's what they need to do. Thank you for coming in.
:58:42. > :58:49.Sadly for some, there's no This Week this evening.
:58:50. > :58:52.Andrew will be back for late night fun on a Thursday in a fortnight.
:58:53. > :58:54.Do join Anushka Asthana for Friday's Daily Politics.
:58:55. > :59:05.Immense congratulations to you. You are the final 12.
:59:06. > :59:06.But at the same time, you are now nothing.
:59:07. > :59:10.An elite group, including scientists,