0:00:36 > 0:00:40Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43North Korea has been blamed for the cyber attacks that hit
0:00:43 > 0:00:46the NHS back in May, but is there anything we can
0:00:46 > 0:00:50actually do about it?
0:00:50 > 0:00:52Pressure is continuing to mount on the government to reduce
0:00:52 > 0:00:55the length of time people have to wait before they receive
0:00:55 > 0:00:56universal credit payments.
0:00:56 > 0:00:59We'll discuss whether more changes need to be done to improve
0:00:59 > 0:01:02the scheme with one of its original architects.
0:01:02 > 0:01:06The European Parliament has been debating what can be done
0:01:06 > 0:01:08to halt sexual harassment, with many staff in Brussels saying
0:01:08 > 0:01:13they have been victims themselves.
0:01:13 > 0:01:15And the robots are coming, but are we ready for them?
0:01:15 > 0:01:18We'll look at what needs to be done to prepare us
0:01:18 > 0:01:25for the robotic revolution.
0:01:25 > 0:01:27All that coming up.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30Now I'd like to particularly welcome rugby league fans who've just been
0:01:30 > 0:01:37watching England against Australia.
0:01:37 > 0:01:40You are smiling, guys, I can't think what you are smiling about.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43I can assure you politics is just as exciting,
0:01:43 > 0:01:45if a little dirtier, and I've got two top pundits
0:01:45 > 0:01:47to analyse all the tactics and the plays, Jenni Russell
0:01:47 > 0:01:49from the Times and the Telgraph's Tim Stanley,
0:01:49 > 0:01:55welcome to the programme.
0:01:55 > 0:01:57First this morning, Home Office Minister Ben Wallace has caused
0:01:57 > 0:02:01a stir by pointing the finger firmly at North Korea for the cyber attack
0:02:01 > 0:02:03whch hit the NHS a few months ago.
0:02:03 > 0:02:06Here's what he had to say.
0:02:06 > 0:02:09Computer crime often leaves a trace and we have capabilities
0:02:09 > 0:02:12in government to track that and I can't go any further
0:02:12 > 0:02:14into our capabilities, but there are strong signs it came
0:02:14 > 0:02:17from North Korea and ourselves and I think the United States
0:02:17 > 0:02:24also believe that.
0:02:24 > 0:02:29Ben Wallace speaking just a short while ago. If you stand back a step,
0:02:29 > 0:02:32you have to consider how worrying and scary it is to see just how
0:02:32 > 0:02:36vulnerable we are to attacks like this.Yes, there is obviously
0:02:36 > 0:02:39something that really no hospital has ever been prepared for and the
0:02:39 > 0:02:44trouble is that naturally the NHS have an ability to withstand this
0:02:44 > 0:02:49kind of thing but the individual NHS trusts with their individual
0:02:49 > 0:02:52computer systems, many of which haven't been updated for some time
0:02:52 > 0:02:56because it is not a priority, should I have more nurses and doctors in a
0:02:56 > 0:03:00Andy or should I get some cyber security expert in for some vague
0:03:00 > 0:03:04threat far off in the future? Understandably they didn't spend a
0:03:04 > 0:03:07lot of money on cyber security and they haven't really got the budget
0:03:07 > 0:03:11for it.It was health trust is mainly, with thousands of
0:03:11 > 0:03:16appointments cancelled. It could have been banks, businesses, any
0:03:16 > 0:03:20public service. The worry, Tim, has always been, who knows where this is
0:03:20 > 0:03:25coming from? It could be a state, a terrorist group, a spotty youth in
0:03:25 > 0:03:30an attic with a malign intent. According to Ben Wallace, it's a
0:03:30 > 0:03:33rogue state who is a bit of a spotty youth in an attic who have got it in
0:03:33 > 0:03:39for us.In which case, what is this? An overt act of terrorism is to muck
0:03:39 > 0:03:44it is hard to know how this will be dealt with because we cannot go and
0:03:44 > 0:03:49arrest Kim Jong Un. We are dealing with a rogue state who are already
0:03:49 > 0:03:52under a number of sanctions and there are fewer and fewer levers we
0:03:52 > 0:03:57have against them.Exactly, what do we do? Do we counter attack with
0:03:57 > 0:04:05cyber warfare?Is there like for like, I don't know? Pressure is
0:04:05 > 0:04:11being put on to China by the UN and somewhat unfairly, it is portrayed
0:04:11 > 0:04:15that Donald Trump is gearing up for a fight with North Korea. North
0:04:15 > 0:04:19Korea started this fight and global actions have to be taken. I suspect
0:04:19 > 0:04:24in the next few months that sanctions will get tougher and China
0:04:24 > 0:04:27will press its partner to clean up its act.
0:04:27 > 0:04:30The government is under pressure from Labour and many Conservative
0:04:30 > 0:04:32MPs to make further changes to its flagship welfare policy -
0:04:32 > 0:04:34universal credit.
0:04:34 > 0:04:36On Wednesday, the Prime Minister announced a major U-turn on housing
0:04:36 > 0:04:39benefit, when she axed plans to cap it for people in social housing.
0:04:39 > 0:04:41But those Tory critics of universal credit want more
0:04:41 > 0:04:43concessions from ministers.
0:04:43 > 0:04:45Let's take a look...
0:04:45 > 0:04:48The aim of universal credit is to roll six existing benefits,
0:04:48 > 0:04:51like housing benefit and tax credits, into one simpler payment.
0:04:51 > 0:04:53It's paid in arrears, like having a job, and the standard
0:04:53 > 0:04:56wait for the first payment is six weeks.
0:04:56 > 0:05:00Now the government have already made some changes...
0:05:00 > 0:05:05At the start of this month, they issued new guidance to make it
0:05:05 > 0:05:08clearer that advance payments are available.
0:05:08 > 0:05:10Ministers then said the helpline, which could cost up to 55p
0:05:10 > 0:05:12per minute, would become a freephone number.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15And this week, the prime minister said that she was axing plans
0:05:15 > 0:05:19to cap housing benefit, which includes the housing part
0:05:19 > 0:05:23of universal credit, for social tenants.
0:05:23 > 0:05:25But for many Tory rebels those changes are not enough.
0:05:25 > 0:05:28They want to see the standard six week wait cut to just four weeks
0:05:28 > 0:05:31and they want to see changes to the so-called "taper rate",
0:05:31 > 0:05:34which determines how much money people can keep as they start moving
0:05:34 > 0:05:35back into work.
0:05:35 > 0:05:38It's yet to be seen whether the government will make
0:05:38 > 0:05:46further concessions.
0:05:46 > 0:05:48With me now is Edward Boyd, managing director of the Centre
0:05:48 > 0:05:51for Social Justice think tank and a former adviser
0:05:51 > 0:05:54to the architect of universal credit, Iain Duncan Smith.
0:05:54 > 0:05:57Welcome to the studio. Thank you for coming in. Let's look at whether
0:05:57 > 0:06:01government is on this for now. They are on the back foot, aren't they?
0:06:01 > 0:06:06Is it because it was a bad idea? Because it's badly managed, badly
0:06:06 > 0:06:10funded or a combination of the three?I think you are right. They
0:06:10 > 0:06:15seem to be on the back foot and there are broadly two reasons why.
0:06:15 > 0:06:19The first is communication from the government's side on this. You can
0:06:19 > 0:06:32almost whisper it in Westminster but if you look at the data on how this
0:06:32 > 0:06:35system compares to the last one, it is not perfect, but all of the data
0:06:35 > 0:06:38shows it is better. People are more likely to be in work, more likely to
0:06:38 > 0:06:43be earning money, and that methods needs to put out more clearly.There
0:06:43 > 0:06:48is a lot of pressure on the government to ensure the payment
0:06:48 > 0:06:52starts sooner. For weeks, not be six weeks as is the system at the
0:06:52 > 0:06:57moment. The idea with a job is that you get paid at the end of the first
0:06:57 > 0:07:02period. Six weeks though leaves people out of pocket, suffering a
0:07:02 > 0:07:08great deal, having to go to beat banks and whatnot. -- food banks and
0:07:08 > 0:07:14whatnot. That has got to change, hasn't it?Yes, you are right. It is
0:07:14 > 0:07:18not just how long you wait for your money but what you get paid.
0:07:18 > 0:07:25Whenever I get paid as a first claimant, you get paid nothing, and
0:07:25 > 0:07:31you need to pay for your housing and food from savings. That can push
0:07:31 > 0:07:37people into debt and actually making sure people get paid from day one
0:07:37 > 0:07:40instead of day seven is the big change we are likely to see the
0:07:40 > 0:07:43government made and I think they should make.In the coming budget it
0:07:43 > 0:07:50is pretty sure as eggs is eggs that the announcement will be made by the
0:07:50 > 0:07:54Chancellor and the government has made life tough for itself by
0:07:54 > 0:07:58holding out.We very much hope that they will be that and I think the
0:07:58 > 0:08:01budget is very much the place to look for that. We will look at
0:08:01 > 0:08:05whether they get rid of the waiting dates but also whether they get rid
0:08:05 > 0:08:10of the taper rate, the amount of money people can keep when they go
0:08:10 > 0:08:19into work and earn more money. They get to keep 37p of money they add an
0:08:19 > 0:08:23extra pound he went on the Universal Credit. That is not enough to
0:08:23 > 0:08:27encourage people to go into work, is it? Do you think they will allow
0:08:27 > 0:08:41people to keep more money before they go into work? I really hope
0:08:41 > 0:08:46they will move on this because if you invest in Universal Credit, you
0:08:46 > 0:08:49invest in those struggling most on the breadline who have not seen pay
0:08:49 > 0:08:52rises for a number of years. I deeply encourage them to do this
0:08:52 > 0:08:57because that is the kind of thing that shows the government is working
0:08:57 > 0:09:02for the whole country.Jenni Russell, you are not impressed with
0:09:02 > 0:09:07how the government has handled this? No, I wrote an article a few weeks
0:09:07 > 0:09:13ago that this would be the government's poll-tax unless they
0:09:13 > 0:09:15did something about it. George Osborne introduced the seven-day
0:09:15 > 0:09:20waiting period in which people are entitled to no money, he is the
0:09:20 > 0:09:27person that you could receive after work. He thought, welfare is an easy
0:09:27 > 0:09:31target, people don't care about it. When you look at Croydon, one of the
0:09:31 > 0:09:40target -- trial areas, housing benefit deficit went up to 40% from
0:09:40 > 0:09:4210% after Universal Credit. People are being driven into a position
0:09:42 > 0:09:48where they cannot pay their bills. It is not enough to just reduced
0:09:48 > 0:09:51waiting to a month. Two fifths of people in this country get paid
0:09:51 > 0:09:57weekly or monthly -- or fortnightly. People who are accustomed to
0:09:57 > 0:09:59budgeting weekly or fortnightly cannot be suddenly pushed to
0:09:59 > 0:10:03monthly. It has to be an option that people can be paid fortnightly if
0:10:03 > 0:10:07they want to and, crucially, that if they choose their housing benefit
0:10:07 > 0:10:11payments can go directly to their landlords which is how it worked
0:10:11 > 0:10:14under the old system. What is happening now is people are being
0:10:14 > 0:10:20paid very late, they can't afford the loan, money comes in as a large
0:10:20 > 0:10:24lump sum and understandably they use the money for rent for living,
0:10:24 > 0:10:27falling to further arrears and they get evicted. So many changes need to
0:10:27 > 0:10:31be made by the government including on day one that if they need an
0:10:31 > 0:10:34advance payment, they can get one, because up until now it has been
0:10:34 > 0:10:38very clear that you can have one. Lots of people don't know about it
0:10:38 > 0:10:44and lots of people never learn about it.Jenni is absolutely right. It
0:10:44 > 0:10:48was in some ways undermined by the Treasury. They saw welfare reform as
0:10:48 > 0:10:54a way of saving money. Some of the stuff that has gone wrong with it is
0:10:54 > 0:10:57stuff that wouldn't have happened if the government had the -- Sibley
0:10:57 > 0:11:01spoken to benefit claimants, those affected. It's appalling that people
0:11:01 > 0:11:09were used for using -- were charged for using a helpline. It is
0:11:09 > 0:11:14inconceivable that someone called a helpline because they have no money
0:11:14 > 0:11:18and get charged for it. It makes me a little ashamed to be British. That
0:11:18 > 0:11:22is confusing strong leadership with pig-headedness and I hope the
0:11:22 > 0:11:26government changes their mind on this.Are you feeling the government
0:11:26 > 0:11:31will dig itself at least part of the way out of this whole, Ed?I think
0:11:31 > 0:11:34we will see improvements but what we have to remember is, you look at the
0:11:34 > 0:11:41old system, the new system is not perfect, no system will be, but this
0:11:41 > 0:11:44is an improvement, the data is showing that. This has to be about
0:11:44 > 0:11:48changing lives, it has to be about reversing some of those reductions
0:11:48 > 0:11:52that came in as other guests have said in order to ensure it always
0:11:52 > 0:11:55pays to be in work and they have got a great opportunity to make sure
0:11:55 > 0:11:59that's the case in the next budget. Thank you very much for joining us
0:11:59 > 0:12:01this morning.
0:12:01 > 0:12:03Make no mistake the robots are coming, it's how we prepare
0:12:03 > 0:12:05for them that's the issue.
0:12:05 > 0:12:07It could be a huge opportunity, the government estimates that
0:12:07 > 0:12:09by 2035 artificial intelligence could add around 630 billion
0:12:09 > 0:12:14pounds to the UK economy.
0:12:14 > 0:12:16The challenge however is that experts predict
0:12:16 > 0:12:18hundreds of thousands of us could find our jobs disappearing
0:12:18 > 0:12:20as the robots take over.
0:12:20 > 0:12:23This technological revolution is the subject of a new study
0:12:23 > 0:12:25by the think-tank Future Advocacy which looks at which parts
0:12:25 > 0:12:28of the country are likely to be hit first and hardest by the rise
0:12:28 > 0:12:30of the machines.
0:12:30 > 0:12:32Elizabeth Glinka reports.
0:12:36 > 0:12:39The robots are coming.
0:12:39 > 0:12:42Or as experts in this exhibition at the Manchester Museum of Science
0:12:42 > 0:12:46and Industry will tell you, they have been here for a while.
0:12:46 > 0:12:54Robots have been around for hundreds of years and have a hand in almost
0:12:54 > 0:12:57every activity that we do and that is only going to continue
0:12:57 > 0:12:58on into the future.
0:12:58 > 0:12:59They are like any other technology.
0:12:59 > 0:13:00Should you be afraid of smartphones?
0:13:00 > 0:13:02Should you be afraid of cars?
0:13:02 > 0:13:04Should you be afraid of anything that has
0:13:04 > 0:13:05changed our lives significantly?
0:13:05 > 0:13:09The answer is no.
0:13:09 > 0:13:11You need to embrace that change and look
0:13:11 > 0:13:12at the opportunities that it presents.
0:13:12 > 0:13:15But with opportunity comes a very real human cost.
0:13:15 > 0:13:18Not to be too apocalyptic about it but it is estimated that
0:13:18 > 0:13:22by the early 2030s, between 20 and 40% of the jobs
0:13:22 > 0:13:26which are currently done by us will be done by them.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33Ollie Bastin whose research breaks down the potential job losses
0:13:33 > 0:13:35by constituency says we're massively underprepared.
0:13:35 > 0:13:38It's an extraordinary level of change.
0:13:38 > 0:13:41We're talking about the equivalent of the jobs that were lost
0:13:41 > 0:13:43in the mining industry over decades happening over a much shorter time
0:13:43 > 0:13:47frame and we know that story didn't end well at all.
0:13:47 > 0:13:49There were terrible consequences for individuals, for families,
0:13:49 > 0:13:53for communities, and so we have got to do much better this time.
0:13:53 > 0:13:55And the sorts of jobs which are most likely to be
0:13:55 > 0:13:58replaced might surprise you.
0:13:58 > 0:14:00It's not just drivers and data inputers.
0:14:00 > 0:14:03We're also talking about welders, legal secretaries, butchers
0:14:03 > 0:14:08and even manicurists.
0:14:08 > 0:14:10Home to Heathrow airport, it's the Shadow Chancellor
0:14:10 > 0:14:13John McDonald's seat, Hayes and Harlington,
0:14:13 > 0:14:15that researchers think will be hardest hit.
0:14:15 > 0:14:18But across the country, it's the former industrial heartlands,
0:14:18 > 0:14:22places which have already weathered the decline in heavy industry,
0:14:22 > 0:14:25which will fare worse.
0:14:25 > 0:14:27The former coalfields of North Warwickshire
0:14:27 > 0:14:30are in the top five.
0:14:30 > 0:14:33I think initially it did come as a bit of a surprise
0:14:33 > 0:14:35but when you look at the types of businesses we have
0:14:35 > 0:14:37in the constituency, things like manufacturing,
0:14:37 > 0:14:39warehousing, storage, then you can see these are the types
0:14:39 > 0:14:49of businesses that are most likely to be impacted by automotive agent.
0:14:50 > 0:14:51-- automisation.
0:14:51 > 0:14:52It's important that government and local authorities
0:14:52 > 0:14:55play their part in making sure that it's not as destructive
0:14:55 > 0:14:57as it may be.
0:14:57 > 0:15:00An all-party group on artificial intelligence was set up in January
0:15:00 > 0:15:02this year and AI is at least mentioned in the
0:15:02 > 0:15:03government's industrial strategy but the changes
0:15:03 > 0:15:05are happening fast.
0:15:05 > 0:15:08It's a huge economic opportunity for our country but there are real
0:15:08 > 0:15:10risks and one of the risks is that that incredible wealth isn't
0:15:10 > 0:15:13going to be shared very fairly and particularly that some people
0:15:13 > 0:15:16are going to lose out when it comes to unemployment and their jobs.
0:15:16 > 0:15:19We have a duty to protect them and help them and make sure
0:15:19 > 0:15:22that everyone benefits.
0:15:22 > 0:15:24The latest polling shows that our views on artificial
0:15:24 > 0:15:28intelligence differ widely depending on what it's being asked to do.
0:15:28 > 0:15:30But with the prospect of hundreds of thousands of job
0:15:30 > 0:15:32losses just 15 years away, it's an issue our politicians
0:15:32 > 0:15:42are going to have to get a grip on.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49Fascinating report, in a scary kind of way!
0:15:49 > 0:15:52Joining me from Newcastle is the shadow minister
0:15:52 > 0:15:55for science and innovation, Chi Onwurah.
0:15:55 > 0:16:00Do you think that we should be excited or scared to death?We
0:16:00 > 0:16:04should be excited, and we should also recognise that this is a
0:16:04 > 0:16:09decision point, a choice, it is not that we should be afraid, but we
0:16:09 > 0:16:14need to make changes, we have choices to be made, so, this report
0:16:14 > 0:16:21says that over half of humans working activities can be automated,
0:16:21 > 0:16:25can be robot aside, but only 5% of actual jobs might disappear, because
0:16:25 > 0:16:34that is the difference, only one, very few jobs go entire leak, if we
0:16:34 > 0:16:40can bring new skills and abilities to them. And there is the
0:16:40 > 0:16:44possibility, in particular areas, which are low skill, that there
0:16:44 > 0:16:49would be huge transformation and loss of jobs. -- roboticised. If
0:16:49 > 0:16:53government gets a grip now, and looks at investing in skills and
0:16:53 > 0:16:59regulating these new opportunities, so that we have a greater range of
0:16:59 > 0:17:06wealth distribution as a consequence of it and using the opportunities to
0:17:06 > 0:17:11new jobs being created, people make work for people. The industrial
0:17:11 > 0:17:15Revolution created many more jobs than it is destroyed but it took
0:17:15 > 0:17:20decades for the benefits to be shared. We need to take the positive
0:17:20 > 0:17:25decisions now, investing in skills and job opportunities, to make sure
0:17:25 > 0:17:29that those opportunities are shared. What is politics rising to the
0:17:29 > 0:17:34challenge, you are describing an enormous challenge. Basically, 5% of
0:17:34 > 0:17:40jobs would be at risk of disappearing.Many more beyond that
0:17:40 > 0:17:44could be transformed, do you think that policymakers across the
0:17:44 > 0:17:51political divide realise the scale of what is coming?Tech often scares
0:17:51 > 0:17:55people, right now, the government is August on Brexit, and backstabbing,
0:17:55 > 0:18:01if I might say so, so I don't think the challenges and opportunities are
0:18:01 > 0:18:12understood. As a matter of urgency, if we in invest in skills, right
0:18:12 > 0:18:16now, in this country, above the age of 24, free education is over, you
0:18:16 > 0:18:21cannot re-skill yourself unless you take out huge loans, if you are
0:18:21 > 0:18:25eligible, or your company invests in you. We need to offer retraining,
0:18:25 > 0:18:32reskilling. Robots can be reprogrammed at zero cost, humans,
0:18:32 > 0:18:36does not require too much, but we are so much more versatile than
0:18:36 > 0:18:41robots. There are still many things, not just talking about writing bad
0:18:41 > 0:18:47poetry(!) or betting, there are many things that robots cannot do...
0:18:47 > 0:18:51Writing a column for The Times newspaper, for instance. LAUGHTER
0:18:51 > 0:18:57We need to have more jobs that have the skills that humans are unique
0:18:57 > 0:19:02at, more jobs with those things, that is what people value, and the
0:19:02 > 0:19:09robots can do the work we do not value. I like to talk about existing
0:19:09 > 0:19:11intelligence, and assisting intelligence, robots helping people
0:19:11 > 0:19:15to be more productive and helping the economy to prosper, because that
0:19:15 > 0:19:18is the opportunity, if we get it right. But it is true that these
0:19:18 > 0:19:25decisions have been taken out, invest in skills, national education
0:19:25 > 0:19:28service, lifelong learning, and giving people more empowerment, so
0:19:28 > 0:19:31they are more productive, and the robots do the boring work.Wouldn't
0:19:31 > 0:19:34that be lovely. Chi
0:19:34 > 0:19:38robots do the boring work.Wouldn't that be lovely. Chi, thank you for
0:19:38 > 0:19:44joining us.
0:19:44 > 0:19:47Now it's time for our regular look at what's been going on in European
0:19:47 > 0:19:51politics, and for the next half hour we'll be examining how our future
0:19:51 > 0:19:52trading relationship with the EU might look,
0:19:52 > 0:19:54sexual harassment allegations in the European Parliament,
0:19:54 > 0:19:57and plans for tighter European border controls.
0:19:57 > 0:20:02First though here's our 60 second round up
0:20:02 > 0:20:08of all the top stories from Brussels and Strasbourg this week.
0:20:08 > 0:20:12Actually, I think we have lost the report, so instead, let's talk about
0:20:12 > 0:20:15Europe, much going on in Europe in many different ways, we have
0:20:15 > 0:20:20mentioned the headlines, and in a short while we will be talking about
0:20:20 > 0:20:24Catalonia, the big headline, I think, this morning. Sexual
0:20:24 > 0:20:27harassment, that was up at the European Parliament, that is being
0:20:27 > 0:20:31discussed here at Westminster, I think that is going to develop over
0:20:31 > 0:20:35the weekend, it has a feel of a story, it is building. And
0:20:35 > 0:20:40Catalonia, what do you make of where we are going with that? The Spanish
0:20:40 > 0:20:45leader, now calling on the Senate, to get on and get ready to deal with
0:20:45 > 0:20:49Catalonia, by taking away their effective autonomy. This one will
0:20:49 > 0:20:54build and build and get rougher and rougher.You always think that
0:20:54 > 0:20:57leaders today are not going to insist upon replicating the mistakes
0:20:57 > 0:21:03made in the past, but it is completely free is that you have a
0:21:03 > 0:21:09weak Spain unable to retreat from his position that they cannot
0:21:09 > 0:21:12secede, and I Catalonia leader who, reading between the lines, would
0:21:12 > 0:21:17like not to have been forced into glaring independence at this point,
0:21:17 > 0:21:21and yet he has pressures within Catalonia to push him to take a hard
0:21:21 > 0:21:24line, they are two trains heading towards one another, they are going
0:21:24 > 0:21:30to smash, it is insane. Catalonia declares independence, nobody will
0:21:30 > 0:21:35recognise it. Companies are fleeing, Spanish will create enormous hatred
0:21:35 > 0:21:39if they dissolve parliament and take over some powers. We think, you have
0:21:39 > 0:21:44got to talk, what on earth are you doing... I will punch you, if you
0:21:44 > 0:21:49punch me, I am harder than you are(!)already had the potential to
0:21:49 > 0:21:51be a bitter confrontation, the violence that we saw surrounding the
0:21:51 > 0:21:58unlawful referendum.It will get worse. That set a black backdrop.
0:21:58 > 0:22:02This is a clash of two different kinds of nationalism, the
0:22:02 > 0:22:05nationalism of an emerging state, Catalonia, which wants to be free,
0:22:05 > 0:22:11but the nationalism of Spain, which says, if you go, we cannot survive.
0:22:11 > 0:22:15You are the richest region within this country. All of this is taking
0:22:15 > 0:22:19part in the context of a constitution which sides with the
0:22:19 > 0:22:24Spanish, but if you test it too far, push it too far, it will prompt the
0:22:24 > 0:22:26central government into doing something so terrible that it means
0:22:26 > 0:22:32anybody who it is done to, they have a moral right to walk away. You see
0:22:32 > 0:22:35two kinds of nationalism content here. The EU does not know what to
0:22:35 > 0:22:41do.My heart bleeds for it. The EU has kept clear of it, it's instinct
0:22:41 > 0:22:44is not to get involved in an internal dispute.Sometimes you
0:22:44 > 0:22:49think that the EU would like the Europe to be a Europe of regions,
0:22:49 > 0:22:53conspiratorially trying to divide up Britain, hats have a separate Spain,
0:22:53 > 0:22:57a separate Northern Ireland. But as Jean-Claude Juncker said recently, a
0:22:57 > 0:23:01Europe of regions would be far harder to govern, it is in the best
0:23:01 > 0:23:06interests of the EU to have a strong Spain. The EU normally supports
0:23:06 > 0:23:09emerging nations right to exist, regional identity, that is what it
0:23:09 > 0:23:15is about, but it is backing Madrid. We will be following the storage in
0:23:15 > 0:23:20the day, but we have to move on with that for the moment, but we will get
0:23:20 > 0:23:22successive news bulletins, rolling news through the day, this is a
0:23:22 > 0:23:24breaking story.
0:23:26 > 0:23:29The key point about talks on trade between Britain and the EU
0:23:29 > 0:23:31is they're not happening, at least not yet.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34And they won't start until Britain comes up with a more generous
0:23:34 > 0:23:35EU divorce settlement.
0:23:35 > 0:23:38The EU side has started to talk among themselves about trade
0:23:38 > 0:23:39with Britain, though.
0:23:39 > 0:23:41And they're also looking down under to forge closer ties
0:23:41 > 0:23:42with Australia and New Zealand.
0:23:42 > 0:23:45EU Commission President Jean Claude Juncker has said an EU
0:23:45 > 0:23:47trade deal with New Zealand and Australia will be in place
0:23:47 > 0:23:52by the end of his term in 2019.
0:23:52 > 0:23:54And this week, the EU side said talks are ready to move
0:23:54 > 0:23:56onto the next stage.
0:23:56 > 0:23:59The UK won't be able to open talks with Australia or New Zealand
0:23:59 > 0:24:02until it leaves the EU in March 2019 but Theresa May remains optimistic
0:24:02 > 0:24:03about reaching a deal
0:24:03 > 0:24:05because these counties are part of the Commonwealth,
0:24:05 > 0:24:11and have historic ties to Britain.
0:24:11 > 0:24:16The final EU trade deal with Australia and New Zealand
0:24:16 > 0:24:21will be carefully scrutinised by UK representatives
0:24:21 > 0:24:24because it could be viewed as a "litmus test" for the type
0:24:24 > 0:24:26of deal the EU could eventually sign with Britain.
0:24:26 > 0:24:28But, such comparisons are perhaps unwise,
0:24:28 > 0:24:31as Theresa May has always maintained she is looking for a "bespoke" trade
0:24:31 > 0:24:32deal and not an off-the-shelf model.
0:24:32 > 0:24:35With me now is the Conservative MEP and International Trade Spokesman,
0:24:35 > 0:24:41David Campbell Bannerman.
0:24:41 > 0:24:45Morning to you, thank you for coming in. A bit of context about the
0:24:45 > 0:24:48importance of all of this, Australia, in the league table of
0:24:48 > 0:24:53countries which are an important trading partner, somewhere below
0:24:53 > 0:24:5920th.It is about 19th, it depends upon how you measure it, New Zealand
0:24:59 > 0:25:03is slightly smaller. These are important markets, we should have
0:25:03 > 0:25:07done these traits deals weight before this. Yesterday, we had a
0:25:07 > 0:25:13vote in the European Parliament, we agreed negotiating guidelines of the
0:25:13 > 0:25:17Council, the negotiation will be the next stage. I am off to New Zealand
0:25:17 > 0:25:21tonight, long flight, we are moving ahead. As we rightly say, the New
0:25:21 > 0:25:29Zealand deal, 80% of it is based on Canada, the Ceta deal, relevant to
0:25:29 > 0:25:33the "Brexit" talks.Canada has done its deal, seven years to get that
0:25:33 > 0:25:37done. Not necessarily giving encouragement to those that say they
0:25:37 > 0:25:40can do the deal in the blink of an eye, but the Canada deal does
0:25:40 > 0:25:49nothing for trading services is the yellow very little.Very little...
0:25:49 > 0:25:59The British economy depends upon services. They are not necessarily
0:25:59 > 0:26:03the pot of gold at the end of the "Brexit" rainbow.Tariffs are
0:26:03 > 0:26:07important, New Zealand lamb is subject to quotas, we import a lot,
0:26:07 > 0:26:13after quota comes to Britain, these things are relevant, we sell a lot
0:26:13 > 0:26:17of Land Rovers and mechanical goods to New Zealand and Australia. It is
0:26:17 > 0:26:22worth getting rid of the tariffs, and that is key, they are still
0:26:22 > 0:26:25operating under World Trade Organisation rules, heavy tariffs in
0:26:25 > 0:26:30certain areas, so that is worth having. Services has to be a big
0:26:30 > 0:26:35bolt on. It is important to New Zealand as well, not just
0:26:35 > 0:26:38agriculture, a lot of it is services, that is very relevant to
0:26:38 > 0:26:43the UK. And the City of London. That is all doable, and I think the super
0:26:43 > 0:26:49Canada deal, taking the Ceta deal by bolting on a lot more in services.
0:26:49 > 0:26:54Mentioning lamb, you are an East of England MEP, a lot of farmers on
0:26:54 > 0:26:59your patch. How do they feel about the idea of agricultural produce,
0:26:59 > 0:27:09including lamb, flooding into the market.British lamb producers have
0:27:09 > 0:27:16shown concern about the New Zealand deal in particular.One minister
0:27:16 > 0:27:20said it would be the end of farming in Wales.It depends upon what the
0:27:20 > 0:27:24Regina is going to be post "Brexit", we signed up to the same regime, the
0:27:24 > 0:27:29same single farm payments, and I think we can look after our farmers,
0:27:29 > 0:27:34but open up the markets. The quotas are pretty restrictive New Zealand
0:27:34 > 0:27:40lamb, for example, and I think... What about the consumer, we have to
0:27:40 > 0:27:44look after the British consumer, we can drive down food prices by being
0:27:44 > 0:27:49outside the customs union.You are a great Brexiteer, you believe
0:27:49 > 0:27:52passionately in your calls, there is a fair chance you will either have
0:27:52 > 0:27:56to deal with angry farmers, I don't know if they will be burning tyres
0:27:56 > 0:28:02on the M25 not, and you may be dealing with consumers looking at
0:28:02 > 0:28:08prices in the supermarket is up. -- M20.Look at the whole area, driving
0:28:08 > 0:28:11up quality in the shops, in the supermarkets, opening up markets for
0:28:11 > 0:28:16our farmers as well as New Zealand and Australian farmers. I don't
0:28:16 > 0:28:21think it is a zero sum game and we should not look at it like that.You
0:28:21 > 0:28:28mean, you can up set everyone at the same time(!) LAUGHTER
0:28:28 > 0:28:32The EU is very resistant to certain things, French producers already are
0:28:32 > 0:28:38saying they will exclude sensitive products from Australia and New
0:28:38 > 0:28:41Zealand in that trade deal but the British trades deal which followed
0:28:41 > 0:28:46Brexit may not do so. We will look after farmers, absolutely.When you
0:28:46 > 0:28:49listen to the debate that has been going on this week on the subject of
0:28:49 > 0:28:54trade policy, European Union, getting to "Brexit" Day, March 2019,
0:28:54 > 0:28:58with a trade deal done and dusted, everything else done and dusted, not
0:28:58 > 0:29:03just in March 2019 but months before that, how much are you convinced by
0:29:03 > 0:29:07it?This is like being asked to clap your hands if you believe in
0:29:07 > 0:29:11fairies, I cannot cut my hands, we know perfectly well that we are not
0:29:11 > 0:29:17going to get any kind of trade deal. She does believe in fairies.
0:29:17 > 0:29:211-dayers...Good!LAUGHTER The relatively simple Canada deal
0:29:21 > 0:29:25should have taken seven years, it is still not resolved, we cannot get
0:29:25 > 0:29:29these details traits deals, they will not happen, even if they were
0:29:29 > 0:29:33to happen they would not be to our advantage. At the moment, research
0:29:33 > 0:29:36has shown that we will lose one quarter of the value of our trade
0:29:36 > 0:29:40and services, and one fifth of our trade in goods with the European
0:29:40 > 0:29:44Union if we leave, if we make fantastic trade deals with the ten
0:29:44 > 0:29:48other biggest economies in the world including the US and India, we will
0:29:48 > 0:29:52make up one tenth of the value of what we are going to lose. The other
0:29:52 > 0:29:57point is, that will take years. At the moment we are entirely ignoring
0:29:57 > 0:30:02the other thing, whether we stick to EU regulations, at the moment, the
0:30:02 > 0:30:07Canada deal has nothing to say to that, if we try to export irons to
0:30:07 > 0:30:13France in the future, and we are not sticking to EU regulations on Irons,
0:30:13 > 0:30:17the French. Goods the border and search them, that is why customs
0:30:17 > 0:30:19will not be able to keep up with the demands.
0:30:24 > 0:30:28Tim, can you explain to Jenni why she is wrong, why there are visiting
0:30:28 > 0:30:39about...I am open-minded. I think Brexit has been spoken about in this
0:30:39 > 0:30:42way too much, people punishing each other, Britain has done a silly
0:30:42 > 0:30:46thing and they will get punished for it. But business does not work like
0:30:46 > 0:30:51that. Business people and voters want trade because trade in riches
0:30:51 > 0:30:56everyone. That is what the next age will be. Once we leave the EU, what
0:30:56 > 0:30:59is exciting is we will be able to make money with other people and one
0:30:59 > 0:31:03of the great things we have working to our advantage of EU regulatory
0:31:03 > 0:31:07compliance. We have exactly the same regulations as the EU so whenever
0:31:07 > 0:31:13the EU does something -- does a deal with someone, we only have to come
0:31:13 > 0:31:19up behind ago, are next.Yes, but if they change, we would have to change
0:31:19 > 0:31:24with them or lose the market.We would be in charge of our own
0:31:24 > 0:31:30regulations. When it is outside of the EU, it has exactly that
0:31:30 > 0:31:34flexibility to adapt to markets.I would just say that Canada only took
0:31:34 > 0:31:39three years to negotiate and we don't have 16,500 goods tariffs, we
0:31:39 > 0:31:48have no quotas, and all our years are going to be taken in, hence the
0:31:48 > 0:31:52repeal bill.And what we are going to do on leaving the EU is diverged
0:31:52 > 0:31:57on everything and the minute we diverged on a single regulation,
0:31:57 > 0:32:02they are going to have to check the import of everything in practice in
0:32:02 > 0:32:08case we are not sticking to their regulations.It is all agreeable.
0:32:08 > 0:32:14No, it isn't. You can't have it both ways.80% of our trade is within the
0:32:14 > 0:32:19UK. 20% is international and 90% of that growth will come from outside
0:32:19 > 0:32:24of Europe.Not on the latest figures.David, your confidence is
0:32:24 > 0:32:36infectious.Let's come back in two years to see.
0:32:36 > 0:32:38As we heard earlier, the most powerful debate
0:32:38 > 0:32:41in the European Parliament this week was about sexual harassment
0:32:41 > 0:32:43and whether the European Union should do more to combat it.
0:32:43 > 0:32:45However during the discussion the focus also shifted
0:32:45 > 0:32:48onto the Parliament itself with many stories emerging of staff being
0:32:48 > 0:32:49the victims of harassment and abuse.
0:32:49 > 0:32:52Here's what EU Commissioner Cecilia Malmstrom had to say
0:32:52 > 0:32:53when she opened the debate.
0:32:53 > 0:32:55Women that have been in some form or another
0:32:55 > 0:32:57harassed by their boss, by their colleague,
0:32:57 > 0:33:00by their teacher, their neighbour or a stranger on the street.
0:33:00 > 0:33:02These stories shout to us.
0:33:02 > 0:33:06It's a feminist outcry from all across the world
0:33:06 > 0:33:09from women who said enough.
0:33:09 > 0:33:10This is enough.
0:33:10 > 0:33:12We refuse to be silent, we refuse to accept.
0:33:12 > 0:33:18We have set aside 6 million euros last year and 12.7 for this year,
0:33:18 > 0:33:21million, and projects across the EU have been a lifeline for many
0:33:21 > 0:33:31organisations who otherwise would not be able to do their work.
0:33:31 > 0:33:33Joining me now is the Labour MEP Neena Gill who's been
0:33:33 > 0:33:36following the debate closely.
0:33:36 > 0:33:43Hello. Just give us a bit of background. We know the problem.
0:33:43 > 0:33:49What can the European Union do about it?Well, firstly we have to put our
0:33:49 > 0:33:52own house in order and that's what we've been trying to do. I mean,
0:33:52 > 0:33:56clearly we need to make sure that there is a safe place for victims to
0:33:56 > 0:34:01be able to come through and raise these issues but beyond that we are
0:34:01 > 0:34:06looking at having a committee where MEPs, who like many people in this
0:34:06 > 0:34:13situation have disproportionate power against very many, let's say
0:34:13 > 0:34:16young women, because it is disproportionately women who are
0:34:16 > 0:34:20affected, so what we are doing is asking the bureau of the parliament
0:34:20 > 0:34:29to make sure they take action.We will talk about the European
0:34:29 > 0:34:33Parliament in a second, Neena, but as an institution, the union,
0:34:33 > 0:34:38Brussels, what can they do about this across Europe?I think we need
0:34:38 > 0:34:43to make sure that it is actually, you know, it is already illegal but
0:34:43 > 0:34:46that all the member states are implementing the laws properly, that
0:34:46 > 0:34:53there is a legal let's say punishment or procedure in countries
0:34:53 > 0:34:59in member states.Is that not up to member states?Yes, but the EU can
0:34:59 > 0:35:06pass regulation to that effect and we need to also propose that there
0:35:06 > 0:35:11is a new regulation about violence against women. So, you know, there
0:35:11 > 0:35:17is something the EU can do. The UN is talking about it. It is not just
0:35:17 > 0:35:22a problem facing Europe, it is a global problem and the UN, the
0:35:22 > 0:35:25European Union and other regional bodies that we are working with, we
0:35:25 > 0:35:30could make it unacceptable, that it is not OK. A bit like we have made
0:35:30 > 0:35:34smoking in this country, it is not acceptable to trivialise sexual
0:35:34 > 0:35:38harassment.Smoking and sexual harassment are a little different,
0:35:38 > 0:35:42but we take your point. You mention Parliament itself and what seems to
0:35:42 > 0:35:47have been going on, what is said to have been going on that by way of
0:35:47 > 0:35:50women not being safe inside the Parliament of the European Union.
0:35:50 > 0:35:56What sort of examples are we talking about here?Well, we have the
0:35:56 > 0:36:01majority of people in power still are men both in terms of the
0:36:01 > 0:36:04officials and parliamentarians. You have very many young women who come
0:36:04 > 0:36:12to work in Parliament or come for work experience and of course you
0:36:12 > 0:36:17have this imbalance of power and often somehow there is a feeling a
0:36:17 > 0:36:23bit like in the film industry and in politics here as well that it's OK,
0:36:23 > 0:36:29young women are expected to do more than the job they are there to do.
0:36:29 > 0:36:32Someone was saying there is a culture of silence around the
0:36:32 > 0:36:36Parliament, people felt unable to raise concerns they had all tell
0:36:36 > 0:36:41stories of what they had been through.Exactly. This is the same
0:36:41 > 0:36:45scenario elsewhere. Whether you are in Westminster, a big corporation,
0:36:45 > 0:36:51you know that your job is at risk and that is the problem. That is the
0:36:51 > 0:36:55reason there is silence, because most people are too afraid and they
0:36:55 > 0:37:00don't know the mechanisms. Now, two years ago Parliament did set up a
0:37:00 > 0:37:05body to say, we know some of this harassment exist and we want to set
0:37:05 > 0:37:08up an organisation where the assistance can go to but really it's
0:37:08 > 0:37:12not that well-known and it hasn't operated as well as it should have
0:37:12 > 0:37:16been. But now with a Brussels-based paper sort of setting up a
0:37:16 > 0:37:22confidential forum, more people have come out and more women have come
0:37:22 > 0:37:25out and made these allegations and I think it's totally unacceptable.
0:37:25 > 0:37:30Jenni, what do you think? Is there a role for politics at a European
0:37:30 > 0:37:35level to make a difference here?I think the problem is that as
0:37:35 > 0:37:39somebody who's lived through 30 years of all of this as everything a
0:37:39 > 0:37:43woman I know has done, the sheer practicality of it. I know a young
0:37:43 > 0:37:46woman at a moment working in an organisation with absolutely
0:37:46 > 0:37:51fabulous liberal policies. Her married male bosses are not
0:37:51 > 0:37:55answering her professional queries during the day but hitting on her
0:37:55 > 0:37:59every single night with text messages telling her how much they
0:37:59 > 0:38:03want to go to bed with her, what they'd like to do in bed with her.
0:38:03 > 0:38:07What is she to do in that situation? If she reports them, they are not
0:38:07 > 0:38:12going to lose their jobs but they are going to hate her and she will
0:38:12 > 0:38:15get a reputation as a troublemaker and her career in the industry where
0:38:15 > 0:38:20she is just starting out may well never go anywhere because other
0:38:20 > 0:38:25employees particular -- other employers particularly men would
0:38:25 > 0:38:29think, I don't want her in my office. It's down to the power
0:38:29 > 0:38:33imbalance. It doesn't matter how many confidential lines you have, if
0:38:33 > 0:38:40that woman reports babies, they know who has reported it.We have to move
0:38:40 > 0:38:46on. Thank you. -- if that woman reports the abuse.
0:38:46 > 0:38:47Who's coming in and who's going out?
0:38:47 > 0:38:50This week MEPs voted to introduce new entry and exit checks for people
0:38:50 > 0:38:53visiting the borderless Schengen area from outside of Europe.
0:38:53 > 0:38:55It's designed to plug a gap in the EU's border security,
0:38:55 > 0:38:58while Europol will use the new database to identify
0:38:58 > 0:38:59terrorists and track criminal suspects.
0:38:59 > 0:39:00Adam Fleming reports from Strasbourg.
0:39:00 > 0:39:01Comings and goings at the parliament.
0:39:01 > 0:39:04This is all about entry and exit to the EU by nationals
0:39:04 > 0:39:06from non-EU countries.
0:39:06 > 0:39:10In the analogue era, all you needed was a passport
0:39:10 > 0:39:16with a visa and some stamps in it.
0:39:16 > 0:39:18Under the digital entry and exit system, there
0:39:18 > 0:39:19will be a joint database
0:39:19 > 0:39:22of biometric information which will tell border guards that
0:39:22 > 0:39:25somebody has stayed in the EU for longer than the 90 days
0:39:25 > 0:39:27that they are allowed.
0:39:27 > 0:39:31It is essential that we effectively manage, protect and secure
0:39:31 > 0:39:38our external borders, that we have full knowledge of who comes in.
0:39:38 > 0:39:43It is in this spirit that we have proposed the entry exit system.
0:39:44 > 0:39:48It's designed to help stop terrorists, like the perpetrator
0:39:48 > 0:39:57of the Berlin attack last Christmas.
0:39:57 > 0:39:58He travelled using 15 different identities.
0:39:58 > 0:40:01But some MEPs have been torn between security and human rights.
0:40:01 > 0:40:02It is a balance compromise.
0:40:02 > 0:40:05In the first place, I was against these smart borders
0:40:05 > 0:40:07but the latest developments show us Europeans are concerned
0:40:07 > 0:40:09and security is a problem.
0:40:09 > 0:40:14We have to strengthen our borders.
0:40:14 > 0:40:16But on the other hand, it has to go hand-in-hand
0:40:16 > 0:40:19with fundamental rights.
0:40:19 > 0:40:22The time that personal data would be held has been a big deal.
0:40:22 > 0:40:25It has been reduced during the passage of the legislation
0:40:25 > 0:40:27but it is still too long for some.
0:40:27 > 0:40:29My main concern is that here there is a huge
0:40:29 > 0:40:32collection of travellers' data from all travellers coming
0:40:32 > 0:40:37to the European Union and going outside and retention
0:40:37 > 0:40:40for up to three years of this data, no matter if that person
0:40:40 > 0:40:43is suspicious or risky.
0:40:43 > 0:40:47And that is something which I think is disproportionate.
0:40:47 > 0:40:50We need to focus on those persons who are risky and suspicious
0:40:50 > 0:40:54and collect more data on those rather than having a general
0:40:54 > 0:41:00suspicion towards all travellers.
0:41:00 > 0:41:03And trust Ukip's Gerard Batten to find a Brexit angle.
0:41:03 > 0:41:08He's even written a book about it.
0:41:08 > 0:41:10We will be affected after we leave the European Union
0:41:10 > 0:41:14because we will be a third country, so our biometric data will be shared
0:41:14 > 0:41:17with all of the countries of the European Union.
0:41:17 > 0:41:19It's not unreasonable for European countries to want a system.
0:41:19 > 0:41:22The USA have a system, the UK has the system,
0:41:22 > 0:41:25they need their own system.
0:41:25 > 0:41:27My concern is that we are sharing information across the board
0:41:27 > 0:41:30with the EU and this will be shared with countries
0:41:30 > 0:41:32that we cannot trust, they are deeply corrupted,
0:41:32 > 0:41:33institutionally corrupted.
0:41:33 > 0:41:37Another country that comes up is Canada.
0:41:37 > 0:41:41Yes, I know it's not in the EU but it has signed a deal
0:41:41 > 0:41:42with the EU to share
0:41:42 > 0:41:44airline passenger data, a deal that's been held
0:41:44 > 0:41:46up because of a ruling by the European Court of Justice.
0:41:46 > 0:41:49Some MEPs think the same thing could happen with this legislation.
0:41:49 > 0:41:52If it did, that might mean the entry exit legislation isn't ready
0:41:52 > 0:41:59to go in 2020 as planned.
0:41:59 > 0:42:03Adam Fleming with that report. Tim Stanley, we are back again right in
0:42:03 > 0:42:06the middle of the argument of the balance between security and
0:42:06 > 0:42:11privacy. Has that balance shifted? It is perfectly reasonable for the
0:42:11 > 0:42:16EU to say it wants to better monitor who is coming in and out. After all,
0:42:16 > 0:42:21the context of this is that huge march of refugees across the
0:42:21 > 0:42:25continent, the context of national countries having to set up borders
0:42:25 > 0:42:30again within Schengen, which they don't want to do, and the context is
0:42:30 > 0:42:33terrorism. So it's perfectly reasonable they should police their
0:42:33 > 0:42:38borders. Gerard Batten is right. I would say it's perfectly reasonable
0:42:38 > 0:42:43for the UK to say hey, we don't want you holding alloy that is in state
0:42:43 > 0:42:49for three years. So what was once an internal UK -- EU discussion is now
0:42:49 > 0:42:57a discussion between the EU and a nation state. Let the UK make a case
0:42:57 > 0:43:00for its citizens privacy.We heard in the report that the very real
0:43:00 > 0:43:06concern about data being held but when you look at the threat across
0:43:06 > 0:43:09the world including countries in Europe, can we simply not be too
0:43:09 > 0:43:12squeamish about this stuff now?I think you have to keep wondering
0:43:12 > 0:43:18about what powers governments have because none of us want to end up in
0:43:18 > 0:43:22a situation where some right-wing government or some very left-wing
0:43:22 > 0:43:26government then starts misusing data in a way that we don't anticipate,
0:43:26 > 0:43:30so I think it's very important that we keep worrying about what they do.
0:43:30 > 0:43:34Tim is absolutely right. The world's preoccupations have shifted. We
0:43:34 > 0:43:40don't know, for example, who other members of Isis or Al-Qaeda among
0:43:40 > 0:43:44the million refugees who came into Europe last year and is absolutely
0:43:44 > 0:43:48right and citizens would demand that the EU should be intelligent about
0:43:48 > 0:43:52the state.There's also an element of hypocrisy that on the one hand
0:43:52 > 0:43:59the UK once open -- the EU wants open borders...It's a trade-off,
0:43:59 > 0:44:04isn't it? That is all for now.
0:44:04 > 0:44:06Thanks to all my guest and particularly Tim
0:44:06 > 0:44:10and Jenni for joining me throughout the programme, goodbye.
0:44:14 > 0:44:15Ooh, yes.