0:00:37 > 0:00:41Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43Allegations of sexual harassment continue to swirl around Westminster
0:00:43 > 0:00:46and now the Prime Minister has intervened - calling
0:00:46 > 0:00:51for new grievance procedures to tackle inappropriate behaviour.
0:00:51 > 0:00:53To spend or not to spend.
0:00:53 > 0:00:56As Chancellor Phllip Hammond comes under increasing pressure
0:00:56 > 0:01:00to increase funding to public services, we'll look at a new report
0:01:00 > 0:01:02arguing that if he does, he'll no longer be able to balance
0:01:02 > 0:01:07the books.
0:01:07 > 0:01:09Gordon Brown this morning admitted he struggled to communicate
0:01:09 > 0:01:12with voters during his time in office, so should our senior
0:01:12 > 0:01:18politicians try a spot of leadership coaching?
0:01:18 > 0:01:21And in an age where so many people are addicted to their mobiles,
0:01:21 > 0:01:24we'll speak to one former MP who thinks it's making us far too
0:01:24 > 0:01:26impatient and unrealistic.
0:01:26 > 0:01:29I often had to explain the limits of an MP's ability to otherwise
0:01:29 > 0:01:32quite reasonable people, demanding that I, personally,
0:01:32 > 0:01:42immediately sought out Donald Trump.
0:01:44 > 0:01:46-- sort out.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49All that in the next hour.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52And with us for the whole of the programme today two MPs
0:01:52 > 0:01:54who could probably also tell you a thing or two
0:01:54 > 0:01:55about demanding constituents,
0:01:55 > 0:01:58Labour's Lucy Powell and Rishi Sunak from the Conservatives.
0:01:58 > 0:02:00Welcome to the show.
0:02:00 > 0:02:04First of all, today is the first working day that the Spanish region
0:02:04 > 0:02:08of Catalonia comes under direct rule from the Spanish Government.
0:02:08 > 0:02:10Rallies for Spanish unity were held in the Catalan capital Barcelona
0:02:10 > 0:02:12yesterday and Spain's chief prosecutor is preparing to file
0:02:12 > 0:02:16criminal charges against the Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont.
0:02:16 > 0:02:19New elections are planned for December which the Spanish
0:02:19 > 0:02:22government say Mr Puigdemont could take part in,
0:02:22 > 0:02:29provided he wasn't in jail.
0:02:29 > 0:02:35When you look at the situation of how it has unfolded, in order to
0:02:35 > 0:02:39de-escalate tensions, could the EU have done more?I think the EU could
0:02:39 > 0:02:44have done more. The Spanish government could have done more and
0:02:44 > 0:02:49the Catalan administration could have done more. It is a failure of
0:02:49 > 0:02:54diplomacy and leadership across all parts. It is not irreversible and
0:02:54 > 0:03:00irreconcilable but it is now at a huge crisis point. I think
0:03:00 > 0:03:03absolutely more could be done and better buys could be given from the
0:03:03 > 0:03:12EU as well.Do you think they were once scared of intervening in the
0:03:12 > 0:03:17constitutional prices in Spain? The chief prosecutor is preparing
0:03:17 > 0:03:24criminal charges against any person acting in the independence
0:03:24 > 0:03:34referendum? Do you think Spanish leaders should be jailed for that?
0:03:34 > 0:03:38Spain has a free press, a free judiciary and a working political
0:03:38 > 0:03:42system. Mistakes have been made the how things have been handled. At
0:03:42 > 0:03:46this point the right thing is to let the democratic processes in Spain
0:03:46 > 0:03:50run. There are fresh elections coming up and all sides will
0:03:50 > 0:03:53participate. Ultimately we all believe in democracy and the process
0:03:53 > 0:03:57working out if the right people stand for the elections and everyone
0:03:57 > 0:04:09votes in numbers. The process can have a stable outcome.It is
0:04:09 > 0:04:12difficult to in the long term you make the situation, then it has been
0:04:12 > 0:04:15over the last few months. It is likely to be its head again with
0:04:15 > 0:04:18fresh elections coming along. Willmore devolved power be the
0:04:18 > 0:04:25answer? It would be the answer. We have demands over many decades for
0:04:25 > 0:04:30greater devolution to parts of the UK anti-countries in the UK. We had
0:04:30 > 0:04:35to meet those demands. We could not have just said to the Scots in the
0:04:35 > 0:04:3970s, 80s and 90s, we will put you all in jail for demanding these
0:04:39 > 0:04:44things. That is not how... The people have a right to
0:04:44 > 0:04:47self-determination in some regard. That has to be done within the
0:04:47 > 0:04:54confined of the legality of the country and it is not our country.
0:04:54 > 0:04:59If you look at the Scottish Welsh or Northern Irish examples, talking
0:04:59 > 0:05:04about is the first point. Coming to a compromise about devolving some
0:05:04 > 0:05:08powers, more powers, to meet some of that appetite whilst sustaining
0:05:08 > 0:05:12integrity of the nation state. There is a pathway forward if people are
0:05:12 > 0:05:17prepared to grasp the leadership metal.Brokers will no doubt remain
0:05:17 > 0:05:24on Catalonia while events unfold. -- focus will no doubt remain.
0:05:24 > 0:05:26Now it's time for our daily quiz.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29The question for today is, Labour MP Barry Sheerman caused
0:05:29 > 0:05:31controversy over the weekend by saying which group of people
0:05:31 > 0:05:32voted Remain in the EU referendum:
0:05:32 > 0:05:33Was it...
0:05:33 > 0:05:35a) Better educated...
0:05:35 > 0:05:35b) Patriotic...
0:05:35 > 0:05:37c) Clowns...
0:05:37 > 0:05:38or d) Traitors?
0:05:38 > 0:05:40At the end of the show, Lucy and Rishi will give us
0:05:40 > 0:05:42the correct answer.
0:05:42 > 0:05:44The newspapers are yet again full of rumours of sexual harassment
0:05:44 > 0:05:48taking place in Parliament, and now the Prime Minister has got involved.
0:05:48 > 0:05:51Theresa May has written to Commons Speaker John Bercow
0:05:51 > 0:05:54calling for new procedures to support parliamentary staff,
0:05:54 > 0:05:58saying that the current regime "lacks teeth."
0:05:58 > 0:06:01In the letter, the Prime Minister said that she wants to see
0:06:01 > 0:06:04contractually-binding grievance procedures and an independent
0:06:04 > 0:06:07mediation service.
0:06:07 > 0:06:09The former chairman of the committee on standards in public life,
0:06:09 > 0:06:12Sir Alistair Graham, welcomed SOME of the proposals,
0:06:12 > 0:06:16but warned against "over-complicating" procedures,
0:06:16 > 0:06:20adding that he was "less sure" about mediation.
0:06:20 > 0:06:23It comes as the political website Guido Fawkes and the Times both
0:06:23 > 0:06:26claimed to have seen a "spreadsheet" of redacted names, said to be
0:06:26 > 0:06:30circulated by junior aides, that accuses a number of tory
0:06:30 > 0:06:35politicians of unacceptable behaviour.
0:06:35 > 0:06:40Separately, there have been rumours about a small number of Labour Mps.
0:06:40 > 0:06:43The Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said he was ready to back the PM
0:06:43 > 0:06:45and establish "robust and effective" new rules.
0:06:45 > 0:06:48Over the weekend, a Cabinet Office investigation was ordered
0:06:48 > 0:06:54into whether Conservative MP and international trade minister
0:06:54 > 0:06:58Mark Garnier breached ministerial rules after alledged inappropriate
0:06:58 > 0:07:01behaviour towards his former secretary.
0:07:01 > 0:07:05Well, it's been announced that Andrea Leadsom,
0:07:05 > 0:07:07the Leader of the Commons, will make a statement
0:07:07 > 0:07:09later this afternoon.
0:07:09 > 0:07:14We can get the latest from our Polical correspondent Vicki Young.
0:07:14 > 0:07:18I understand you have just come back from the briefing, the Number 10
0:07:18 > 0:07:23spokesman, to lobby political journalists like yourself of what
0:07:23 > 0:07:27was said?His point was the Prime Minister takes its very seriously
0:07:27 > 0:07:30and the Prime Minister would be sitting beside Andrea Leadsom when
0:07:30 > 0:07:34she makes that statement later today put up some are accusing the Prime
0:07:34 > 0:07:39Minister being too reactive rather than proactive. She has ordered this
0:07:39 > 0:07:43Cabinet Office enquiry into mark Garnier. Some are saying, can't she
0:07:43 > 0:07:47decide for herself that she thinks it was inappropriate behaviour or
0:07:47 > 0:07:51not? Should she take action and fire him from his job? The spokesman
0:07:51 > 0:07:57said, he did not want to get into every discussion there has ever been
0:07:57 > 0:08:00over party whips and people in charge of discipline. The rumour is
0:08:00 > 0:08:05they have little black books with misdemeanours of MPs they can use
0:08:05 > 0:08:08against them to try to get them to follow the party line. The spokesman
0:08:08 > 0:08:13said it would not get into those conversations but did deny one of
0:08:13 > 0:08:16the suggestions in newspapers at the weekend there was a dossier
0:08:16 > 0:08:20containing this information that the Prime Minister had seen. He said
0:08:20 > 0:08:24there was no dossier and the Prime Minister cannot have seen it. He did
0:08:24 > 0:08:27say she was deeply concerned about recent reports on any unwanted
0:08:27 > 0:08:31sexual behaviour in any work place is unacceptable. The Prime Minister
0:08:31 > 0:08:41wants to
0:08:42 > 0:08:44make sure the reputation of Parliament is not damaged but made
0:08:44 > 0:08:47the point that has to be done on a cross-party basis.Is there a
0:08:47 > 0:08:49feeling there have been some parts of the media that have overreacted?
0:08:49 > 0:08:52There has not been a big enough distinction over genuine and serious
0:08:52 > 0:08:54claims of sexual harassment or sexual assault and rape allegations
0:08:54 > 0:08:58and what is called a culture of sexist behaviour within Parliament.
0:08:58 > 0:09:03That is always the issue needs cases. This has happened before were
0:09:03 > 0:09:08MPs have got into trouble. Some have ended up in court and were found not
0:09:08 > 0:09:11guilty of certain accusations. There was always the issue of the strange
0:09:11 > 0:09:15relationship, if you like, there is any way between an office which has
0:09:15 > 0:09:22the MP at the head of the office. They are the line manager, the
0:09:22 > 0:09:24employer, a researcher, potentially of younger members of the community.
0:09:24 > 0:09:28The idea that power is put into all of this and they can be taken
0:09:28 > 0:09:32advantage of. If you are a researcher, something has happened
0:09:32 > 0:09:36to you, who do you go to with that complaint? It is still that we have
0:09:36 > 0:09:40been talking about for very many years when it comes to Westminster.
0:09:40 > 0:09:46That has not been resolved is where the Prime Minister is writing to the
0:09:46 > 0:09:50Speaker of the House of Commons to work out if there is a way of this
0:09:50 > 0:09:54being done and maybe having a third party. Should it be left up to the
0:09:54 > 0:09:57parties themselves to deal with it? The problem is that politics comes
0:09:57 > 0:10:01into play it may not be in the best interests of the party leader to
0:10:01 > 0:10:06have a scandal of that nature. After all these years of this kind of
0:10:06 > 0:10:09talk, it is still what they are wrestling with. How do you do with
0:10:09 > 0:10:16it and how can people speak out? As we have seen with other cases in
0:10:16 > 0:10:19Hollywood and the rest of it, once people feel they can speak out about
0:10:19 > 0:10:25it, you might get to the truce.Have you experienced sexual harassment in
0:10:25 > 0:10:30Westminster or politics? Yell Anot as an MP. The power inequality is
0:10:30 > 0:10:37what is always at the root cause of abuse, harassment or sexual
0:10:37 > 0:10:42violence. --Not as an MP. That is all was on a spectrum. As an MP I
0:10:42 > 0:10:47feel I chi am more in a position of power and that is harder for people
0:10:47 > 0:10:50to exploit me in that way for the other young researcher and working
0:10:50 > 0:10:57in politics in my 20s, I was subject to bullying and inappropriate
0:10:57 > 0:11:02behaviour and I thought I had nowhere to go with that at that
0:11:02 > 0:11:06time. I knew it would not be my interests to go anywhere with it.
0:11:06 > 0:11:11You don't want to have that mark on your career. I think that is the
0:11:11 > 0:11:18issue here. It is something, a culture, which exists across many of
0:11:18 > 0:11:23the top professions, probably in the BBC, the media, politics, etc. We
0:11:23 > 0:11:27are lawmakers and had to go further than other institutions in making
0:11:27 > 0:11:32sure that kind of behaviour is eradicated and has somewhere to go.
0:11:32 > 0:11:38How big is the problem? Is the storm around these claims of sexual
0:11:38 > 0:11:43harassment reflecting what is going on in the corridors of power?Is it
0:11:43 > 0:11:49rampant? I don't know if the answer. The truth is, to not know is part of
0:11:49 > 0:11:53the problem. Certainly we saw the scandal within the Liberal Democrat
0:11:53 > 0:11:57Party with women coming forward a year or so ago. Women who were
0:11:57 > 0:12:02trying to become MPs, get on in the Liberal Democrat Party all came out.
0:12:02 > 0:12:07There have been scandals. If I hear of anything myself, directly, any
0:12:07 > 0:12:11direct allegations that I would act on them and take those forward. I
0:12:11 > 0:12:15don't. But I think the power inequalities, the way in which our
0:12:15 > 0:12:20offices are setup and Parliament and so forth, within the Labour Party
0:12:20 > 0:12:24there is a bigger issue at the moment as well which is connected,
0:12:24 > 0:12:29which is about the systematic bullying and abuse at all levels of
0:12:29 > 0:12:34the Labour Party. We are probably not alone in that.Have you gone to
0:12:34 > 0:12:39the party itself to complain about this? Has it been dealt with?We
0:12:39 > 0:12:45raise that regularly. We raise it in the Parliamentary Labour Party and
0:12:45 > 0:12:48others. I would like to see the Labour Party taking a more serious
0:12:48 > 0:12:53stance on that as well. It's only a month ago that a female leading
0:12:53 > 0:12:58political correspondent required a bodyguard coming to our conference.
0:12:58 > 0:13:04I don't think enough said about that at the time. We need to show strong
0:13:04 > 0:13:09leadership, even when it means taking on our own side.John
0:13:09 > 0:13:11Whittingdale, one of your colleagues, has said something is to
0:13:11 > 0:13:16be done but we are talking about a minority of incidents.Is he right?
0:13:16 > 0:13:21I agree with almost everything that Lucy has said. There is a problem
0:13:21 > 0:13:29and we do need to tackle and figure out the best way to do it for our
0:13:29 > 0:13:32party and the other parties as well. In terms of how big a problem it is,
0:13:32 > 0:13:35I cannot honestly tell you. I have only been in Parliament for two
0:13:35 > 0:13:38years my understanding is the situation is a lot better now than
0:13:38 > 0:13:42it was in the past. As I read these stories like everybody else, clearly
0:13:42 > 0:13:47there is still a problem we need to fix in making sure that people feel
0:13:47 > 0:13:50comfortable they can bring allegations to light. That will be
0:13:50 > 0:13:54part of the process of knowing how big the problem is that lets take
0:13:54 > 0:13:59Mark Garnier who told his secretary to buy sex toys for him and used a
0:13:59 > 0:14:04demeaning phrase when addressing her.He says this was taken out of
0:14:04 > 0:14:09context and it was not sexual harassment. Is it acceptable
0:14:09 > 0:14:13behaviour?It is not language I would use personally thought we
0:14:13 > 0:14:20don't want to get into the business of trial by television. It is right
0:14:20 > 0:14:25that is being investigated.Should he be suspended while the
0:14:25 > 0:14:29investigation is going on?He has disputed the facts and be
0:14:29 > 0:14:33interpretation from the get go for that when the facts are known, the
0:14:33 > 0:14:44Prime Minister must make a decision on that.Presumably you would not
0:14:44 > 0:14:47use the language that you do not think it is acceptable. Is it enough
0:14:47 > 0:14:49to have an investigation as to whether he has breached the
0:14:49 > 0:14:53ministerial code?I do not have infinite detail of it. They are able
0:14:53 > 0:14:57to look at a range of behaviour. The Prime Minister is trying to lead to
0:14:57 > 0:15:01the front on this issue and making sure she gets to the bottom of that
0:15:01 > 0:15:06case and any other cases.There have been reports that four Labour MPs
0:15:06 > 0:15:12have been accused of harassing women. I have heard the Shadow
0:15:12 > 0:15:15Minister telling the BBC she reported a Labour colleague who
0:15:15 > 0:15:21tried to kiss her when she was a campaigner. This does cut across all
0:15:21 > 0:15:29parties, doesn't it?Absolutely. I don't think there is a moral high
0:15:29 > 0:15:34ground that applies. I would say that swift action is necessary by
0:15:34 > 0:15:39suspending people will stop I was one of the first people to fall for
0:15:39 > 0:15:46-- call for Jarrod O'Mara to be suspended. The allegations were so
0:15:46 > 0:15:48serious. The primers to should be doing the same with her own
0:15:48 > 0:15:52ministers. It is not an issue for the Cabinet Office, it is whether
0:15:52 > 0:15:55she personally as comfortable having someone admitting that behaviour
0:15:55 > 0:16:00took place. I'm not here to make a party political point about it,
0:16:00 > 0:16:03certainly not. We have to try to make these things about politics
0:16:03 > 0:16:06because it is not convenient for political leaders or they are in a
0:16:06 > 0:16:18weak position or it is one of their allies or friends. They are not
0:16:18 > 0:16:21going to be as strong about it as they should be.Miriam Gonzalez,
0:16:21 > 0:16:25married to Nick Clegg, said Labour must have known about Jared O'Mara's
0:16:25 > 0:16:30comments because she and Nick Clegg knew about him. Is it credible for
0:16:30 > 0:16:34Labour to say they did not know about his past?They should have
0:16:34 > 0:16:37done. There has been a failure in the betting process if they did not.
0:16:37 > 0:16:42Used to be chief of staff for Ed Miliband. We went through many
0:16:42 > 0:16:45disciplinary issues were about MPs or trying to select candidates for
0:16:45 > 0:16:52by-elections. In our era, ten, would not have got through the vetting
0:16:52 > 0:16:58process. I don't know what happened in this case. -- Jared would not
0:16:58 > 0:17:02have got through. That is why it is right he should have been suspended.
0:17:02 > 0:17:08It cannot be because someone is your political ally and you are softer on
0:17:08 > 0:17:13that or he is a minister and you don't want the fuss. You must take a
0:17:13 > 0:17:16strong stance. Culture change requires strong leadership and that
0:17:16 > 0:17:21applies to Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May. One ever-changing culture is
0:17:21 > 0:17:26nebulous. It is difficult.
0:17:26 > 0:17:33It is commonly known that the whips have reports on many MPs that they
0:17:33 > 0:17:37have information, that is stored about MPs, that they can use against
0:17:37 > 0:17:42them, rightly or wrongly in the event of tight votes, difficult
0:17:42 > 0:17:45particularly now in a minority Government, are you awhich of that
0:17:45 > 0:17:50sort of information?No I am not aware of that. That is the law of
0:17:50 > 0:17:55the Whips office and there is this black book in a safe, it is not
0:17:55 > 0:17:58something I have come across but it is important to distinguish between,
0:17:58 > 0:18:02of course will is gossip about who might be dating who, but what we are
0:18:02 > 0:18:06talking about here is more important than that. I am very confident that
0:18:06 > 0:18:10if people are aware of serious allegations of sexual harassment,
0:18:10 > 0:18:17those will and should be brought to light.How? At the moment,
0:18:17 > 0:18:22Hopefully, we are in this hoed situation as MPs which people don't
0:18:22 > 0:18:26realise we employ our members of staff ourselves, what we need is a
0:18:26 > 0:18:30more form. Institutional process. What would you like?Like a big
0:18:30 > 0:18:35company, any big company would have an independent HR department so
0:18:35 > 0:18:40there is someone people can go to who is not their direct report who
0:18:40 > 0:18:45as Lucy said there is a power imbalance there, they need to go
0:18:45 > 0:18:49someone else, to raise their complaint, and then there should be
0:18:49 > 0:18:53a formal process to see that threw. It isn't just enough to call for a
0:18:53 > 0:18:58mediation service, you would like a more robust system set up, in a way
0:18:58 > 0:19:04is Theresa May acting with enough seriousness, to this problem?I
0:19:04 > 0:19:08think she has shown very serious purpose there. She has written
0:19:08 > 0:19:12straightaway. We will have a statement from the leader of the
0:19:12 > 0:19:14House and it is important we work together. I think she is right to
0:19:14 > 0:19:17say we should try and tackle this problem across Parliament, so we
0:19:17 > 0:19:21need to come up jointly round the table with a solution we think is
0:19:21 > 0:19:26robust and make sure Parliament is what we want it to be, which is a
0:19:26 > 0:19:31safe and welcoming place, especially for young people.Should she have
0:19:31 > 0:19:36taken more direct action herself about Mark Garnier and Stephen
0:19:36 > 0:19:41Crabbe.Mark is facing a serious allegation and she is institutions a
0:19:41 > 0:19:44process which hasn't been done before so put in place the process
0:19:44 > 0:19:47you are talking about, so I think, obviously it is the early stages of
0:19:47 > 0:19:50a journey we need to go on. I agree with Lucy, it is about cultural
0:19:50 > 0:19:54change at the end of the day. We have a responsibility to make the,
0:19:54 > 0:19:58contribute to changing the culture this Parliament so it is this...So
0:19:58 > 0:20:03it can't just be left to the parties?No, where I would agree is
0:20:03 > 0:20:07we need a third party independent place people should be able to go
0:20:07 > 0:20:12to, with anonymity as well, to raise concerns that might be smaller or
0:20:12 > 0:20:16lower level, and decide whether they want to take them forward. The word
0:20:16 > 0:20:20I object to that Theresa May has used in her proposals is mediation.
0:20:20 > 0:20:25I don't think this is a question of mediation, it is not we have a
0:20:25 > 0:20:29dispute with our bossings and that needs some mediation this is about
0:20:29 > 0:20:33sending clear signals about inappropriate behaviour, behaviour
0:20:33 > 0:20:37that may become much more serious in terms of where it extends to, and so
0:20:37 > 0:20:41mediation is the wrong word for that, but third party independent
0:20:41 > 0:20:45anonymous, they are some of the elements I think can help take this
0:20:45 > 0:20:45forward.
0:20:45 > 0:20:47forward.
0:20:47 > 0:20:52The Chancellor, Philip Hammond, is between a rock and a hard place
0:20:52 > 0:20:54over his upcoming budget according the Institute for Fiscal Studies.
0:20:54 > 0:20:57In a new report out this morning they point out that whilst
0:20:57 > 0:21:00he is under pressure to increase public spending, to do
0:21:00 > 0:21:02so would damage his commitment to balance the books and get rid
0:21:02 > 0:21:03of the deficit.
0:21:03 > 0:21:06Mr Hammond is even facing demands from his own Cabinet
0:21:06 > 0:21:08colleagues, have a listen to the Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt
0:21:08 > 0:21:10on the Andrew Marr Show yesterday.
0:21:10 > 0:21:13This Government is absolutely committed to making our NHS the
0:21:13 > 0:21:14safest, best health care system.
0:21:14 > 0:21:16We recognise there is a lot of work to do.
0:21:16 > 0:21:18We've just been talking about mental health.
0:21:18 > 0:21:20There are lots of other areas as well.
0:21:20 > 0:21:22I will be making a very robust case for the
0:21:22 > 0:21:26NHS to get the resources that it needs, as I'm sure other Cabinet
0:21:26 > 0:21:35ministers will for their departments.
0:21:35 > 0:21:41We can speak to Carl Emmerson, who's from the IFS.
0:21:41 > 0:21:44You are saying today that Philip Hammond is facing a tricky hand, in
0:21:44 > 0:21:49next month's budget. What do you mean?It looks like the outlook for
0:21:49 > 0:21:54growth over the next few years for productivity, which is the key
0:21:54 > 0:21:59driver of growth is going to be downgraded. In March it was assumed
0:21:59 > 0:22:03we would go about 1.6 a year, unfortunately recent history
0:22:03 > 0:22:10suggests that is perhaps too optimistic, we have only been
0:22:10 > 0:22:15managing 0. 4% a year. That is bad news because lower productive group
0:22:15 > 0:22:20means lower wages and that means people will be paying less in tax so
0:22:20 > 0:22:24we expect a lot more red ink in the budget number, so more borrowing
0:22:24 > 0:22:28over the next few years than what he was planning eight months ago.Can
0:22:28 > 0:22:32you put a figure on that, how much of a hole is it going to make, this
0:22:32 > 0:22:37productive downgrade?We don't mow how big of a downgrade they will do.
0:22:37 > 0:22:42The OBR is suggesting it is going to be significant. Where they to
0:22:42 > 0:22:45downgrade half way what they assumed back in March and what the average
0:22:45 > 0:22:52we are seen over the last seven years has been, the deficit in 2021,
0:22:52 > 0:22:572022 would be 20 billion higher, so on course to be borrowing about 36
0:22:57 > 0:23:01billion rather than about 16 billion, so it would make a
0:23:01 > 0:23:04significant difference, and then the challenge for the Chancellor is,
0:23:04 > 0:23:08your plans look like you will end up borrowing more and people are
0:23:08 > 0:23:12wanting tax cut, increasing in benefit spending and people want
0:23:12 > 0:23:16more spending on public services, how do you square that circle? You
0:23:16 > 0:23:22have all these competing demands mapped for extra cash and the public
0:23:22 > 0:23:26finances aring worse.It is looking difficult but sounds like it is
0:23:26 > 0:23:28particularly difficult to balance in this particular case, do you think
0:23:28 > 0:23:32he is going to have to drop his target of wiping out the deficit by
0:23:32 > 0:23:372025?He has various option, you could imagine a situation where a
0:23:37 > 0:23:40Chancellor chose now to increase taxes significantly, that is what
0:23:40 > 0:23:43often happens just after general election, but that choice looks
0:23:43 > 0:23:46difficult particularly given that the Conservatives don't have a
0:23:46 > 0:23:50Parliamentary majority so he may not have that option to hand. It seems
0:23:50 > 0:23:55unlikely he want to do more benefit cuts or more public service cuts on
0:23:55 > 0:24:01top of those very plans. It is unlikely he will say it is an end to
0:24:01 > 0:24:06austerity and we are stop cutting at all. The most likely scenario is
0:24:06 > 0:24:10small giveaways targeted at particular group, that will add to
0:24:10 > 0:24:14borrowing and that would bring into question whether the Government is
0:24:14 > 0:24:17serious about eliminating the deficit and maybe we don't want to
0:24:17 > 0:24:23commit to having a balanced budge fret the mid 2020s on ward. It looks
0:24:23 > 0:24:26harder to get there perhaps we should be honest and they we are not
0:24:26 > 0:24:33going to do that, we would rather have hiring spending or lower taxes.
0:24:33 > 0:24:37Would you broadly support dropping the target of working out the
0:24:37 > 0:24:40deficit by 2025? Is that no longer the first priority for a
0:24:40 > 0:24:44Conservative Government?No I wouldn't support that, and I think
0:24:44 > 0:24:48it is right that the Chancellor is adopting the balanced approach. It
0:24:48 > 0:24:52is right we live within our mean, he has been flexible in how he has done
0:24:52 > 0:24:55that so that star get has been pushed out, but the record is very
0:24:55 > 0:25:01good. Growth in the UK since 2010 has been one of the highest among
0:25:01 > 0:25:04all developed country, employment is at a record high and we have taken
0:25:04 > 0:25:09difficult decisions on bringing down the deficit, it is down by two
0:25:09 > 0:25:12thirds, 100 billion less when we came into Government. That is
0:25:12 > 0:25:16extraordinary. At the same time, there is record amount of investment
0:25:16 > 0:25:20going into public services. Health and education, defence, they are all
0:25:20 > 0:25:23receiving record amounts, that is a tricky job but one we are managing
0:25:23 > 0:25:28well.It looks as if your Government is go to do the opposite when it
0:25:28 > 0:25:31comes to trying to get rid of the deficit. They have committed to 10
0:25:31 > 0:25:36billion for new help to buy loans. 2 billion for new council home, 1.2
0:25:36 > 0:25:41for tuition fee, 2 billion for the national insurance, U-turn and one
0:25:41 > 0:25:45billion to the DUP. So they are splashing money round every where
0:25:45 > 0:25:50and it has to be paid for. If you don't want it to be paid for by
0:25:50 > 0:25:55abandoning that target of getting rid of the deficit you are obviously
0:25:55 > 0:26:01in favour of hiring taxes.No.How do you pay nor that?There is head
0:26:01 > 0:26:06room in the numbers. As we heard from calm Emerson, they still think
0:26:06 > 0:26:11he is on target to meet his fiscal target.Except the low productivity
0:26:11 > 0:26:16could cost up to 20 billion. IsLet us see what happens, that is the a
0:26:16 > 0:26:19forecast into the future. His target he will probably still meet because
0:26:19 > 0:26:23he put head room in the budget, that is what sensible planning is about.
0:26:23 > 0:26:27As we look forward growth is absolutely key, we have been lucky
0:26:27 > 0:26:32to enjoy relative to other countries very strong growth. As a result,
0:26:32 > 0:26:38that growth will falter, that is the prediction from the IFS and probably
0:26:38 > 0:26:43from the OBR unless something is done about it. I say to you again,
0:26:43 > 0:26:48going forward would you rather borrow more or see taxes going up We
0:26:48 > 0:26:52will see the fruits of that investment, investment is relatively
0:26:52 > 0:26:55high levels, reforms to technical education, there is a record amount
0:26:55 > 0:26:59of new company creation, those are the things that will raise product
0:26:59 > 0:27:03#2i6ty, they have only just started to happen.There has been no
0:27:03 > 0:27:09evidence up to now.These things don't happen overnight. Over the
0:27:09 > 0:27:12coming years we will start to see the fruits of that as we have seen
0:27:12 > 0:27:19in primary and secondary.Would you back the idea thatThere is a few
0:27:19 > 0:27:23different issue, it is clearly the case that the slash and burn
0:27:23 > 0:27:26austerity approach of the Government has not worked by its own measure
0:27:26 > 0:27:30because they said originally the deficit would be eliminated by 2020,
0:27:30 > 0:27:39now we are talking about it not even being elimiteded by 2025. They have
0:27:39 > 0:27:42failed markedly to invest in closing that productive gap and that issue
0:27:42 > 0:27:47about productive, which has been around for years.So would you back
0:27:47 > 0:27:52the idea of abandoning that are tea get?We have said we have a fully
0:27:52 > 0:27:56costed manifesto commitment, so, there is about how you cut the cake
0:27:56 > 0:28:02as well and decisions you make, but we have a fully costed manifesto set
0:28:02 > 0:28:06of commitments that, we show where we will raise the taxes from in
0:28:06 > 0:28:10terms of corporation tax, making different decision about inheritance
0:28:10 > 0:28:14tax and capital gain tabs, these huge tax cuts for the richest which
0:28:14 > 0:28:17have happened under the Conservatives and switching that
0:28:17 > 0:28:22money into...Except as you know, the IFS don't think the sums add up.
0:28:22 > 0:28:25They have said clearly and they said it in the election it was a black
0:28:25 > 0:28:30hole of at least nine billion in your tax and spending plans and that
0:28:30 > 0:28:34was specifically on public service, what do you say? Response?That is
0:28:34 > 0:28:39not anything like as big as a figure the IFS have said about the
0:28:39 > 0:28:42Government's black hole and they are in Government.If you are not in
0:28:42 > 0:28:44Government it is all right to be fairly fast and loose with the
0:28:44 > 0:28:50figures.Not at all. We have a fully costed audited set of manifesto
0:28:50 > 0:28:54commitments but I think it is is really important to understand why
0:28:54 > 0:29:00we are in the situation we are now in. The Government have failed to
0:29:00 > 0:29:03invest properly in skills, skills budgets have been slashed and burned
0:29:03 > 0:29:08under this Government, we are seeing schools budgets being cut.How much
0:29:08 > 0:29:14has, well, go on, you respond?The IFS were clear at the time of the
0:29:14 > 0:29:17election, they said Labour should not pretend, those are the words
0:29:17 > 0:29:22they use, should not pretend all this money can be magiced up from a
0:29:22 > 0:29:26small minority of rich people. It means higher fax rises for the vast
0:29:26 > 0:29:30majority...What was the percentage Labour said, they would tax how many
0:29:30 > 0:29:37people at the top?5%.The IFS said they should not pretend they can
0:29:37 > 0:29:41raise all this money...That was only a small part of it.We haven't,
0:29:41 > 0:29:45it is hard on one hand to criticise the Government for not getting the
0:29:45 > 0:29:50deficit down fast enough, not cutting enough, at the same time
0:29:50 > 0:29:53objecting to every difficult decision the Government has made, to
0:29:53 > 0:29:56try and get us to Li within our mean, you can't have it both way,
0:29:56 > 0:30:00when you look at health and education spend, they are autorecord
0:30:00 > 0:30:05levels.We are talking about a lot more people being dealt with and a
0:30:05 > 0:30:12growing elderly population.You with look at it as a share of GDP, we
0:30:12 > 0:30:18spend at least the EU and OECD average... If not more than that.
0:30:18 > 0:30:22Why does Jeremy Hunt feel he needs more?He is batting for his
0:30:22 > 0:30:26department.Should there be a focus on higher spending in public service
0:30:26 > 0:30:29snoops what there should be a focus on is output, what we care about is
0:30:29 > 0:30:36how many people we are treating, how many children are good our
0:30:36 > 0:30:41outstanding schools we should be debating that. You said the
0:30:41 > 0:30:46austerity of the Government has failed, clearly, you said, but why
0:30:46 > 0:30:50is Labour only pledging to reverse £4 billion worst of welfare cuts and
0:30:50 > 0:30:55not the full 12 billion.I would like to see a greater focus in terms
0:30:55 > 0:31:00of how we can help those that are transitioning on to Universal
0:31:00 > 0:31:04Credit, the low paid and just about managing, I have given others yes, I
0:31:04 > 0:31:09for example I think the tax free childcare scheme that is Government
0:31:09 > 0:31:13has brought in which is going to almost entirely better off people.
0:31:13 > 0:31:16That should be going to the just about managing families to help with
0:31:16 > 0:31:20their costs, so I think there is, there is more that can be done there
0:31:20 > 0:31:23and it is about how you slice the cake, it is about some of the
0:31:23 > 0:31:27political decisions you make within the envelope you have, but there is,
0:31:27 > 0:31:31you know, we are getting to the point, I think after seven years of
0:31:31 > 0:31:37austerity, where we need to have a bigger conversation with the public,
0:31:37 > 0:31:41about why austerity in itself is a failed policies, because you have
0:31:41 > 0:31:45not been able to invest in people properly, so yes we do have more
0:31:45 > 0:31:48people in work, but they are in low paid job, they are not in secure
0:31:48 > 0:31:54jobs that is because we haven't been upskilling people, we haven't been
0:31:54 > 0:32:03investing in the regions in other parts of the country.
0:32:03 > 0:32:13There is a cost. Is it really affordable?The 48 billion is fully
0:32:13 > 0:32:21costed and clearly set out, independently audited. Even the IFF,
0:32:21 > 0:32:24many people say with such low interest rates we should have spent
0:32:24 > 0:32:29the last four years borrowing to invest for big projects in
0:32:29 > 0:32:33transport, and skills, to raise productivity levels.Let me finally
0:32:33 > 0:32:38put to you, there is a choice, if you are a six-week wait for
0:32:38 > 0:32:43Universal Credit payments. Would you rather see that time shortened to a
0:32:43 > 0:32:48month to stop people becoming destitute? To do that, reverse the
0:32:48 > 0:32:57plans for corporation tax?The ISS said about Labour's plans to raise
0:32:57 > 0:33:01corporation tax back up, it would depress economic activity, lower
0:33:01 > 0:33:06wages and make sure there are fewer jobs.How do help people on
0:33:06 > 0:33:10Universal Credit?At the moment they can access 50% of the payments they
0:33:10 > 0:33:16are Jews on the same day if needs be more people could beware of that
0:33:16 > 0:33:18service. -- Bayard
0:33:23 > 0:33:33-- they are due. You must remember that we spend £90 billion on working
0:33:33 > 0:33:37age welfare. That is pretty much the same as we spend on the NHS and is
0:33:37 > 0:33:43twice what is spent on schools. It is a large bill that is not wrong to
0:33:43 > 0:33:48ask how the money is spent and make sure it is spent carefully.If today
0:33:48 > 0:33:58is anything to go by, it will be another busy week in politics.
0:33:58 > 0:34:00Let's take a look at the week ahead.
0:34:00 > 0:34:02Tomorrow, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt will be in front
0:34:02 > 0:34:03of Parliament's Health Select Committee.
0:34:03 > 0:34:05And the Government will reveal details of its new
0:34:05 > 0:34:06housing benefit policy.
0:34:06 > 0:34:08On Wednesday, Theresa May will take Prime Minister's Questions
0:34:08 > 0:34:10in the House of Commons.
0:34:10 > 0:34:12On Thursday, it's the turn of Brexit ministers to answer
0:34:12 > 0:34:13questions in Parliament.
0:34:13 > 0:34:15And on Friday, Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn will appear
0:34:15 > 0:34:19on the Channel 4 TV show Gogglebox - in a special edition to raise money
0:34:19 > 0:34:20for cancer research.
0:34:20 > 0:34:22We're joined now by Lucy Fisher, senior political correspondent
0:34:22 > 0:34:24at The Times, and the Guardian's joint political editor,
0:34:24 > 0:34:27Heather Stewart.
0:34:27 > 0:34:32Welcome to both of you. Lucy Fisher, first of all, is the media storm
0:34:32 > 0:34:39orang claims of sexual harassment and inappropriate behaviour
0:34:39 > 0:34:45proportionate to the number of cases being discussed?According to the
0:34:45 > 0:34:51dossier, it showed 36 Tory MPs are so far involved in these claims
0:34:51 > 0:34:59which so far are unverified. The claims also stretch up as high as
0:34:59 > 0:35:03the Cabinet. Former Cabinet ministers and senior MPs. I think it
0:35:03 > 0:35:07is very serious indeed. I do not think there is a suggestion this is
0:35:07 > 0:35:14an overblown scandal.Do think it could end up with ministers being
0:35:14 > 0:35:21sacked?That is not impossible. Some people were surprised that yesterday
0:35:21 > 0:35:25Mark Garnier, who admitted going on to buy sex toys with his assistant.
0:35:25 > 0:35:30I do not know if we can say that on lunchtime television. You have said
0:35:30 > 0:35:36it now. Using an unfortunate phrase towards her, he said it was all fun.
0:35:36 > 0:35:41I don't think it is a tall clear that we will not see resignations as
0:35:41 > 0:35:48time goes on.-- at all clear. There have been criticisms of Theresa May
0:35:48 > 0:35:52not taking firm enough action. What do you think she needs to do to get
0:35:52 > 0:35:58to grips with the situation?Many thought her letter to John Burke are
0:35:58 > 0:36:05calling for new Parliamentary procedures does not go far enough.
0:36:05 > 0:36:11-- Berkow. Questions in the Sunday papers suggested sleaze briefings
0:36:11 > 0:36:17were fed into Number 10. She needs to become aware of what she knew
0:36:17 > 0:36:23about allegations of harassment and rape behaviour by MPs. A senior
0:36:23 > 0:36:26Conservative has tabled a motion today. Andrea Leadsom will be in
0:36:26 > 0:36:31front of MPs talking on the next steps. Certainly the PM needs to act
0:36:31 > 0:36:37fast. Her spokesman would not confirm she has confidence from her
0:36:37 > 0:36:44Cabinet. We could see some sackings in the offing pretty imminently.You
0:36:44 > 0:36:49wonder with Andrea Leadsom standing up, Theresa May will be with her in
0:36:49 > 0:36:51the House of Commons. The wonder whether it will encourage victims to
0:36:51 > 0:37:02come forward in the way you saw with the Weinstein case. Let's move on to
0:37:02 > 0:37:07the budget, or fiscal and economic policy. The Government is to drop
0:37:07 > 0:37:12plans to cap housing benefit for people living in social rented
0:37:12 > 0:37:18accommodation. Another U-turn.Is this becoming a trend? It certainly
0:37:18 > 0:37:23seems that way. An interesting fact, ten announced by the PM last week
0:37:23 > 0:37:26during Prime Minister's Questions came on the back of Labour tabling
0:37:26 > 0:37:29an opposition Day debate. Even though the Prime Minister said we
0:37:29 > 0:37:33will not get involved and vote in the non-binding Labour led debate,
0:37:33 > 0:37:42she still felt prompted with the U-turn. Jeremy Corbyn certainly is
0:37:42 > 0:37:47feeling confident with Labour planning to press on for more
0:37:47 > 0:37:51changes in policy of the Universal Credit certainly in the run-up to
0:37:51 > 0:37:54Christmas.Some of this can be seen in the light these are the policies
0:37:54 > 0:37:59of George Osborne being reversed here. Actually some of the chickens
0:37:59 > 0:38:03are coming home to roost. Absolutely. George Osborne announced
0:38:03 > 0:38:12£12 billion of welfare cuts. He has since gone. The legacy remains. MPs
0:38:12 > 0:38:15are finding constituents coming to them and telling them dreadful
0:38:15 > 0:38:20stories about Universal Credit and these are the cuts coming through.
0:38:20 > 0:38:24On Universal Credit, finally, what do you think will happen? Do you
0:38:24 > 0:38:30think there will be a further announcement about shortening the
0:38:30 > 0:38:35waiting time?That is the mood music. There have been text messages
0:38:35 > 0:38:38sent to Tory MPs suggesting the initial delay in first payment for
0:38:38 > 0:38:43people moving on to benefit system of six weeks could be reduced to
0:38:43 > 0:38:53four weeks.Thank you both very much.
0:38:53 > 0:38:56The Government may be facing defeat in the Lords.
0:38:56 > 0:38:58Labour peers, with the support of Liberal Democrats
0:38:58 > 0:39:00and some cross benchers, are supporting an amendment
0:39:00 > 0:39:03to the Data Protection Bill that would incorporate part of the EU
0:39:03 > 0:39:07Charter of Fundamental Rights.
0:39:07 > 0:39:18That covers data protection into the Government's bill.
0:39:18 > 0:39:20The Government however argue that the amendment,
0:39:20 > 0:39:22which concerns the right to privacy and personal data, risks
0:39:22 > 0:39:24the unintended consequence of abolishing exemptions that allow
0:39:24 > 0:39:25journalists to protect their sources.
0:39:25 > 0:39:28We can get more on this from Labour's Lord Stevenson who's
0:39:28 > 0:39:29leading the amendment and the Conservative
0:39:29 > 0:39:30MP Matt Warman.
0:39:30 > 0:39:34Welcome to both of you. Wilf Stevenson, you have put down this
0:39:34 > 0:39:39amendment calling for article eight of the EU rights to be inserted into
0:39:39 > 0:39:46the bill.It is an important part of law. We think this should be
0:39:46 > 0:39:52continued and see no reason for it to be taken out.What is the
0:39:52 > 0:39:57problem? Just be keeping the status quo. Sima krych it would that the
0:39:57 > 0:40:07bill as it stands keeps the status quo. --It would be that the bill as
0:40:07 > 0:40:12it stands keeps the status quo. It is about potentially not been
0:40:12 > 0:40:15complied with data protection regulations across the EU which has
0:40:15 > 0:40:20huge economic consequences are now some more serious economic
0:40:20 > 0:40:23consequences potentially around removing the protections that
0:40:23 > 0:40:26journalists and other financial institutions currently enjoy under
0:40:26 > 0:40:31data protection regulations. It is very important we get this right.
0:40:31 > 0:40:37Are you against it in principle? If it is the status quo, surely we were
0:40:37 > 0:40:40exposed to both unintended consequences anyway.The Government
0:40:40 > 0:40:45has all the right measures in place to make sure we are compliant with
0:40:45 > 0:40:50European regulations and that journalists, for instance, enjoy the
0:40:50 > 0:40:53protections they need, the financial institutions enjoy the protections
0:40:53 > 0:41:00they need as well. This is about making sure that we don't, as I
0:41:00 > 0:41:03think a well intentioned amendment might risk doing it puts us in a
0:41:03 > 0:41:07position where we are not comply getting the best data protection
0:41:07 > 0:41:10regulations for the most important part of our economy over the coming
0:41:10 > 0:41:13years.I can't quite see the difference between what you have
0:41:13 > 0:41:19signed up to nine whether that is leading up to terrorist financing
0:41:19 > 0:41:23and money laundering. Do think there is a danger that could increase with
0:41:23 > 0:41:27your amendment question we do not want that to happen.We are trying
0:41:27 > 0:41:32to reach out to the Government. This is day one of seven days in
0:41:32 > 0:41:35committee. We are saying to the Government, let's try to get this
0:41:35 > 0:41:39right for the benefit of all concerned. The risks are really- if
0:41:39 > 0:41:42we get this wrong all sorts of businesses trading with Europe might
0:41:42 > 0:41:51not be able to do so. Even worse European countries might not be able
0:41:51 > 0:41:54to trade with us. There is a lot at stake.Do you think you will defeat
0:41:54 > 0:41:57the Government on this?If necessary. We are both very close
0:41:57 > 0:42:02together. What we have just heard is very close to where we want to get
0:42:02 > 0:42:08to. You want to get it right.What do you think Labour is up to? If you
0:42:08 > 0:42:12are working together, as you both say, is there really a case, as I
0:42:12 > 0:42:17understand it, that they are trying to make Brexit more difficult form
0:42:17 > 0:42:28Mr 's? Is that true? -- for ministers. Al Arights can exist in
0:42:28 > 0:42:38all sorts of territory.-- rights can exist.Are you stoking something
0:42:38 > 0:42:46that does not exist in trying to make mischief over Brexit?This is
0:42:46 > 0:42:52an issue where we are genuinely listening to amendments that have
0:42:52 > 0:42:58been proposed. There will be read tabled an amendment which will
0:42:58 > 0:43:05soften the language. This is an argument over our future
0:43:05 > 0:43:08relationship with the European Union were all sides understand the
0:43:08 > 0:43:11importance and understand why we had to get this right foot if I am
0:43:11 > 0:43:17honest will get there because everyone is on the same side.Are
0:43:17 > 0:43:21you going to allow Labour to go forward with including this bit of
0:43:21 > 0:43:27the Charter and keeping it within the data protection Bill?That would
0:43:27 > 0:43:31fundamentally shift where the focus is. What it would do is introduce a
0:43:31 > 0:43:36whole new set of language, a whole new set of unintended consequences
0:43:36 > 0:43:42as you said in your introduction. Just explain the unintended
0:43:42 > 0:43:46consequences. How would journalists no longer be able to protect their
0:43:46 > 0:43:52sources or anti-dumping agencies could not check drugs cheats? How
0:43:52 > 0:43:57would it happen with this amendment? What we had in the original
0:43:57 > 0:44:01amendment was a blanket set of rights to enshrine the right to
0:44:01 > 0:44:05princely into people, whatever they were doing. As you have just heard,
0:44:05 > 0:44:13there is the knowledge that went too far. This amendment seeks to try and
0:44:13 > 0:44:16protect people who currently enjoy legitimate protections without
0:44:16 > 0:44:20providing a blanket rule for people whether they are criminal or not. We
0:44:20 > 0:44:27need to get this right. There is genuine willingness to try to find a
0:44:27 > 0:44:29sensible middle ground that preserves the protections that
0:44:29 > 0:44:36people have at the moment but that also makes sure we have world
0:44:36 > 0:44:38leading data protection regulations and compliant data protection
0:44:38 > 0:44:43regulations with our most important trading partners in Europe.That
0:44:43 > 0:44:50sounds like a big appeal. Maybe the two of you can work it out and
0:44:50 > 0:44:53report back on what happens in Parliament. Thank you.
0:44:53 > 0:44:56It's pretty obvious that mobile phones have taken over our lives
0:44:56 > 0:44:59in the last few years but have they made us more demanding
0:44:59 > 0:44:59of our politicians.
0:44:59 > 0:45:02Charlotte Leslie, who used to be a Conserative MP in Bristol believes
0:45:02 > 0:45:05the instant gratification we get from social media is making us ask
0:45:05 > 0:45:07far too much of our MPs.
0:45:07 > 0:45:30Here's her soapbox.
0:45:30 > 0:45:30In
0:45:30 > 0:45:33In
0:45:33 > 0:45:34My mobile phone.
0:45:34 > 0:45:37It helps me do so much more, I tell myself.
0:45:37 > 0:45:39But have you ever caught the technology in your pocket
0:45:39 > 0:45:40beginning to change you?
0:45:40 > 0:45:42When I find myself demanding instant answers to problems
0:45:42 > 0:45:45in my own life right now, I begin to wonder whether technology
0:45:45 > 0:45:54is eating our brains.
0:45:54 > 0:45:58I was selected as a candidate to fight Bristol North West in 2006.
0:45:58 > 0:46:00Back then, Twitter was barely out of its egg.
0:46:00 > 0:46:01E-mails were frequent, but so were letters.
0:46:01 > 0:46:03By 2015, everything had changed.
0:46:03 > 0:46:05Not only did Twitter dominate our attention span,
0:46:05 > 0:46:14I noticed people changing too.
0:46:23 > 0:46:26We've become less tolerant of waiting and less clear
0:46:26 > 0:46:27about the difference between what we want
0:46:27 > 0:46:34and what is actually possible.
0:46:34 > 0:46:37I often had to explain the limits of an MP's ability.
0:46:37 > 0:46:39to otherwise quite reasonable people demanding that I,
0:46:39 > 0:46:40personally, immediately, sort out Donald Trump
0:46:40 > 0:46:50or global extremism.
0:46:54 > 0:46:56If our technology has turned us into instant gratification,
0:46:56 > 0:46:59virtual reality addicts, it's going to get much harder
0:46:59 > 0:47:06for politicians to satisfy this ever more demanding public.
0:47:06 > 0:47:09If digital really is reprogramming us, to prefer the instant over
0:47:09 > 0:47:10the long-term and feel-good idealism over gritty pragmatism,
0:47:10 > 0:47:20does this fundamentally favour the political left?
0:47:27 > 0:47:30So, is virtual reality the greatest enemy of the right?
0:47:30 > 0:47:33If so, the gradient of technology that Conservatives will have
0:47:33 > 0:47:36to climb if they are to own the politics of the future may be
0:47:36 > 0:47:46much steeper than just getting good on Instagram.
0:47:49 > 0:47:53And Charlotte joins us now.
0:47:53 > 0:47:58Is it really fair to say that you think in your mind social media has
0:47:58 > 0:48:03benefitted the left more than the right?I'm not sure, but I do ask
0:48:03 > 0:48:06myself that, the reason I am Conservative and not Labour is not
0:48:06 > 0:48:09because I think that what Labour wants is necessarily wrong, it is
0:48:09 > 0:48:13because I don't think it works in reality. And so I asked myself, if
0:48:13 > 0:48:16you have two types of people in the world and you probably need both,
0:48:16 > 0:48:20who look at the world as they want it to be and act on that, and then
0:48:20 > 0:48:26other people who tend to look at the world as it is and act on that,
0:48:26 > 0:48:29disease virtual reality fave the people who would like the world as
0:48:29 > 0:48:33they would like it to be, that is the difference I have with my Labour
0:48:33 > 0:48:39friend.Or is it the Conservatives haven't been very good at using
0:48:39 > 0:48:44social media?That is a different debate. Look at the 2015 and
0:48:44 > 0:48:47discourse was that Conservatives were far ahead.Through Facebook.
0:48:47 > 0:48:52What do you say to that in response to the left?I think we are seeing a
0:48:52 > 0:48:56rise in populism on both sides of the political spectrum, and I think
0:48:56 > 0:49:01we are entering a period in politics where people want simple answers, to
0:49:01 > 0:49:04what are complex questions.And immediate response.Yes, I think
0:49:04 > 0:49:10they is a difficult time for politics, for those of us who think
0:49:10 > 0:49:16you have to, do have to make difficult decisions that things are
0:49:16 > 0:49:20a long-term trend, and so I think, Charlotte has, but I don't think it
0:49:20 > 0:49:23is the left right thing, I think this is about the edges of politics
0:49:23 > 0:49:28versus maybe in the middle.You are a relatively new MP, how demanding
0:49:28 > 0:49:32is it in terms of social media request, peopleable to contact you
0:49:32 > 0:49:39directly on a daily basis.Unlike Charlotte and Lucy I represent a
0:49:39 > 0:49:43rural constituency so broadband and me of session Nat is not...That
0:49:43 > 0:49:49helps you, the fact you have patchy cover. I look forward to the day
0:49:49 > 0:49:53when all of my constituencies can find me on Facebook and have a
0:49:53 > 0:49:58signal. As a new MP it has been prechty much a positive experience
0:49:58 > 0:50:01for me because it enables me to connect with different people as you
0:50:01 > 0:50:05try to establish yourself. Do you use all the social media?I don't
0:50:05 > 0:50:10use twitter.How do you survive without using twister?I am here to
0:50:10 > 0:50:17tell the tale. That is probably why I have had a positive more
0:50:17 > 0:50:20experience, most people's experience, it can be abusive,
0:50:20 > 0:50:25Facebook is more engaging with video content and things like that.I
0:50:25 > 0:50:28think it is about different dedemocracy, I represent one of the
0:50:28 > 0:50:33largest populations in the country, it is one of the most deprived. One
0:50:33 > 0:50:38thing I say is I want you to be more demanding because the people who
0:50:38 > 0:50:43need me the most in my constituency aren't demanding and the people who
0:50:43 > 0:50:47need me the least are most demanding. I think there is an
0:50:47 > 0:50:51imbalance there.It is important to be demanding in the right way.
0:50:51 > 0:50:55Something politics has done is to say we can give you everything now,
0:50:55 > 0:50:59and so in a sense we can't be surprised when people say I want
0:50:59 > 0:51:06this now and want unreasonable things and get disappointed and
0:51:06 > 0:51:11upset when it isn't given.Managing expectation is important but if you
0:51:11 > 0:51:15look at someone like Donald Trump who is a great user as we know of
0:51:15 > 0:51:21twitter and hasn't yet been able to give all of, meet the promises he's
0:51:21 > 0:51:25made yet his supporters still like him, it is as much the sort of
0:51:25 > 0:51:29messenger as well as the message and how it is communicated.I think it
0:51:29 > 0:51:34will be interesting to give Donald Trump time, because we are a short
0:51:34 > 0:51:39way into Trumpism in America, I think we have a fundamental
0:51:39 > 0:51:44mismatch. I notice myself expecting things more quickly, it isn't me
0:51:44 > 0:51:50saying that lot is change, it is me saying what is this doing to my
0:51:50 > 0:51:56expectations and how real and how realistic is my demand on what is a
0:51:56 > 0:52:01tangible physical world.But it can get a lot more done as you said and
0:52:01 > 0:52:05it does give you a direct line, Gordon Brown thinks personality
0:52:05 > 0:52:10politics is the issue, when it comes to social media, not necessarily the
0:52:10 > 0:52:14message, do you think he is right? It is no surprise, if you have lots
0:52:14 > 0:52:19of different ways for people to speak to constituents that
0:52:19 > 0:52:23personality will matter a lot more. Have you preprogrammed yourself, the
0:52:23 > 0:52:30onset of having a smartphone and the social media, has it changed you?
0:52:30 > 0:52:33Probably changed all, you have to try and switch it off. Otherwise I
0:52:33 > 0:52:36would be a terrible mum as a terrible politician, which I
0:52:36 > 0:52:40probably am both that. Is a different question, the other trend
0:52:40 > 0:52:45I think I would agree w alongside this sort of simple answers to
0:52:45 > 0:52:51complex problems which Donald Trump epip miced is this trend for
0:52:51 > 0:52:55personal back story, personal kind of story ribs about politicians
0:52:55 > 0:52:59which I think is the way everyone is going.Do you think it is a good
0:52:59 > 0:53:03thingI don't think it is a particularly good thing, people will
0:53:03 > 0:53:07come a cropper. If you make it all about your own personal brand, and
0:53:07 > 0:53:12then for some reason you don't live up to that brand, you know, that is,
0:53:12 > 0:53:16because we are not all perfect people, we are not people that have
0:53:16 > 0:53:21got a great, it is all about our back story. We are all ordinary
0:53:21 > 0:53:27people.Some are less ordinary than others.Some are a bit posh, posher
0:53:27 > 0:53:30than me, but most people are ordinary people trying to do a good
0:53:30 > 0:53:34thing. It should be about what we are trying to do, not necessarily,
0:53:34 > 0:53:37you know, our personality or back story.All right. Leave it there.
0:53:37 > 0:53:38Thank you.
0:53:38 > 0:53:39Thank you.
0:53:39 > 0:53:41Now, what makes a great political leader?
0:53:41 > 0:53:43Is it confidence, or compassion, or a penchant for handshakes?
0:53:43 > 0:53:46Well, according to Liz Truss, the answer could, in some part, lie
0:53:46 > 0:53:47in leadership coaching.
0:53:47 > 0:53:53At a speech to the Social Market Foundation, the Chief Secretary
0:53:53 > 0:53:55to the Treasury called for a departure from the idea
0:53:55 > 0:53:57of leadership as an innate quality.
0:53:57 > 0:54:00She said that cabinet ministers should follow the lead of business
0:54:00 > 0:54:02chiefs and admit the need for coaching, and avoid the dichotomy
0:54:02 > 0:54:04that someone is "either Winston Churchill or David Brent."
0:54:04 > 0:54:07Today, former Prime Minister Gordon Brown has given his view on why
0:54:07 > 0:54:09he failed to resonate with the public saying:
0:54:09 > 0:54:15"The modern version of 'connecting' seems to increasingly include
0:54:15 > 0:54:18a public display of emotion, with the latter - authentic or not -
0:54:18 > 0:54:21seen as evidence of a sincerity required for political success"
0:54:21 > 0:54:24"in a far more touchy-feely era, our leaders speak of public issues
0:54:24 > 0:54:26in intensely personal ways and assume they can win votes simply
0:54:26 > 0:54:29by telling their electors that they 'feel their pain'.
0:54:29 > 0:54:38For me, being conspicuously demonstrative is uncomfortable"
0:54:46 > 0:54:48Joining us now is leadership coach from the Alexander
0:54:48 > 0:54:50Partnership, Jill Pett.
0:54:50 > 0:54:54Welcome to the programme. Hind sight is a wonderful thing and people can
0:54:54 > 0:54:58be more candid when they are no longer in office. What makes a
0:54:58 > 0:55:03successful political leader in your mind?I think it is a broad
0:55:03 > 0:55:09question, I think that we at the Alexander partnership chub 2 are
0:55:09 > 0:55:14concerned with leaders find their authentic voice and being authentic
0:55:14 > 0:55:19and present in the moment and understanding really what your
0:55:19 > 0:55:25purpose is is critical, and I think that Liz Truss is right. Think we
0:55:25 > 0:55:30have moved away from personality, politics and I think people are
0:55:30 > 0:55:33looking for credibility and real belief in what they are talking
0:55:33 > 0:55:39about.If it is about authenticity and you are not naturally someone
0:55:39 > 0:55:43who has a lot of empathy or can't demonstrate emotion and you are
0:55:43 > 0:55:48running a country, then doesn't that hinder your ability to succeed.Well
0:55:48 > 0:55:53I think there are ways in which you can work round that, what we are
0:55:53 > 0:55:58engaged with, is helping people become the best versions of
0:55:58 > 0:56:02themselves. So everyone has different degree of empathy, I don't
0:56:02 > 0:56:05think that is is a prerequisite for success in politics.What do you
0:56:05 > 0:56:09think is key in terms of being a successful leader?I think Liz is
0:56:09 > 0:56:15right. There is room for coaching and improvement. Some things you
0:56:15 > 0:56:19can't teach, like temperament and judgment, authorityty, coaching
0:56:19 > 0:56:25probably can't help you with that. In the nuts and bowls of how you do
0:56:25 > 0:56:32your job, we are all people, we have things we are better and good at and
0:56:32 > 0:56:38getting help seems sensible. Some of the most successful COEs have
0:56:38 > 0:56:43leadership coaches.And lots of it. I am not good at this or that, I
0:56:43 > 0:56:49need to improve how I communicate. Is that why you have been considered
0:56:49 > 0:56:52a potential future leader on testify Conservative Party. Because you have
0:56:52 > 0:56:58recognised what is needed to become a good leader.I will be different.
0:56:58 > 0:57:02There is no package, everyone wants to be the best version of
0:57:02 > 0:57:07themselves, getting hem seems the right thing to do. Lewis Hamilton
0:57:07 > 0:57:10has won a fourth World Championship, if you look a his career he talks
0:57:10 > 0:57:15about these are the things I have changed and got better at. Jimmy
0:57:15 > 0:57:20Anderson is going off to which Ashes Series, his game has evolved. People
0:57:20 > 0:57:26are trying to improve themselves.I don't think there is any doubt, it
0:57:26 > 0:57:32is a given, in business, that any modern progressive CEO would have a
0:57:32 > 0:57:35good leadership coach by their side, with them over a period of time.
0:57:35 > 0:57:39That is a given. It is obvious to say that that needs to transfer into
0:57:39 > 0:57:46politics. I mean, you know, the agenda for minister, and people in
0:57:46 > 0:57:52high office is so complex. So, you need all the help you can get.So
0:57:52 > 0:57:56every Prime Minister should have one.Absolutely.You would say that,
0:57:56 > 0:58:00how have we managed up to now?Well, good question. Are we managing? I
0:58:00 > 0:58:05think it is very much on the rise in Europe, and the States and I think
0:58:05 > 0:58:08anyone in high office would have a leadersome hip coach, and I think
0:58:08 > 0:58:12really we need to set our people up to succeed, otherwise we are not
0:58:12 > 0:58:17going to get our brightest and best into politics.Thank you. There is
0:58:17 > 0:58:23just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
0:58:23 > 0:58:25The question was - Labour MP Barry Sheerman caused controversy
0:58:25 > 0:58:28over the weekend by saying which group of people voted Remain
0:58:28 > 0:58:38in the EU referendum.
0:58:38 > 0:58:40So, Lucy and Rishi, what's the correct answer?
0:58:40 > 0:58:43Hip coach, and I think really we need to set our people up to
0:58:43 > 0:58:45succeed, otherwise we are not going to get our brightest and best into
0:58:45 > 0:58:48politics. Thank you. There is just time before we go to find out the
0:58:48 > 0:58:51answer to our quiz. Know what he said.What was it?The
0:58:51 > 0:58:52better educated.Was that wise? Probably not.
0:58:52 > 0:58:53Probably not.
0:58:53 > 0:58:54That's all for today.
0:58:54 > 0:58:55Thanks to our guests.
0:58:55 > 0:58:58I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big political stories
0:58:58 > 0:58:59of the day - do join me then.