0:00:37 > 0:00:40Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43Theresa May's Government is thrown in to crisis
0:00:43 > 0:00:45following the resignation of the Defence Secretary,
0:00:45 > 0:00:51Michael Fallon.
0:00:51 > 0:00:57I realise that in the past may have fallen below the high standards that
0:00:57 > 0:01:02we require at the Armed Forces. I have reflected now on my position in
0:01:02 > 0:01:06government and I am therefore resigning as Defence Secretary.
0:01:06 > 0:01:09Mr Fallon announced his departure from Government last night
0:01:09 > 0:01:11as stories about sexual impropriety and harassment in Westminster
0:01:11 > 0:01:12continue to surface.
0:01:12 > 0:01:13In a surprise move, Gavin Williamson -
0:01:13 > 0:01:16until now the Government Chief Whip - is announced as the
0:01:16 > 0:01:19new Defence Secretary.
0:01:19 > 0:01:22It means a mini reshuffle has been underway.
0:01:22 > 0:01:24We'll have the latest.
0:01:24 > 0:01:26A Parliamentary victory for Labour as they call
0:01:26 > 0:01:28on the Government to publish its Brexit impact studies.
0:01:28 > 0:01:33So, will ministers now have to put them in the public domain?
0:01:33 > 0:01:35And is Boris Johnson's brand of humour an important
0:01:35 > 0:01:37foreign policy tool, or a bit of a joke
0:01:37 > 0:01:46on the diplomatic circuit?
0:01:46 > 0:01:47All that in the next hour.
0:01:47 > 0:01:50And with me for the whole programme today is the Conservative MP
0:01:50 > 0:01:58and Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee Tom Tugendhat.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01Welcome to the programme.
0:02:01 > 0:02:03So, in the last couple of hours, Number Ten announced that
0:02:03 > 0:02:05Gavin Williamson is to become the new Secretary
0:02:05 > 0:02:06of State for Defence.
0:02:06 > 0:02:09He replaces Sir Michael Fallon who announced his departure
0:02:09 > 0:02:11from Government last night as the row over sexual impropriety
0:02:11 > 0:02:14and harassment continues to sweep through Westminster.
0:02:14 > 0:02:21Well, Laura Kuenssberg - our political editor -
0:02:21 > 0:02:25Joins us now. You interviewed Michael Fallon and broke the story
0:02:25 > 0:02:28he resigned.
0:02:28 > 0:02:38Has again is he to he was one of the main people for Theresa May's and
0:02:38 > 0:02:42footer he had huge experience. He has been pretty well liked and
0:02:42 > 0:02:47respected in Westminster and Theresa May did rely on him to some extent.
0:02:47 > 0:02:51The cabinet has been very delicately balanced, not just in terms of
0:02:51 > 0:02:55Brexit and backwards and forwards club are also in terms of experience
0:02:55 > 0:03:01and the generations. For her to lose somebody who was vital in the
0:03:01 > 0:03:05critical balance and someone who has been around with real presence
0:03:05 > 0:03:09certainly is a loss. In the roller coasters of politics, he was always
0:03:09 > 0:03:15meant to be Mr reliable.The safe pair of hands as he used to be
0:03:15 > 0:03:22called.He is more used to defending errant colleagues than himself.But,
0:03:22 > 0:03:30he is gone. In a big surprise to some people, Gavin Williamson, also
0:03:30 > 0:03:35in a key role in terms of managing the minority government, has now
0:03:35 > 0:03:41been promoted into the Cabinet. He is the new Defence Secretary.What
0:03:41 > 0:03:46is the reaction? It is pretty mixed. Gavin Williamson is seen as a smart
0:03:46 > 0:03:53man. He's a very effective operator. He was the PPS for Cameron and the
0:03:53 > 0:03:58connection between the backbenchers and the Prime Minister. He knows the
0:03:58 > 0:04:051922 inside out and the backbenchers and everyone's secrets he was the
0:04:05 > 0:04:10manager of Theresa May's leadership campaign. He has been in a very
0:04:10 > 0:04:15important position for a long time. He is smart and talented and
0:04:15 > 0:04:20ambitious. However, some people I have spoken to this morning are
0:04:20 > 0:04:26furious. He has never been a minister before. Some people said it
0:04:26 > 0:04:31was appalling. Theresa May is so weak that she has allowed Williamson
0:04:31 > 0:04:36to appoint himself. Another minister has said it is outrageous to put
0:04:36 > 0:04:40into this plum job particularly at such a crucial time, not only when
0:04:40 > 0:04:45the Government does not have a majority but when they are in the
0:04:45 > 0:04:50middle of the harassment allegations mess as other political parties are
0:04:50 > 0:04:54trying to do with some more of their number are going to have to quit
0:04:54 > 0:05:00their jobs as well.As a former Army officer, is he suited to the job of
0:05:00 > 0:05:05Defence Secretary?I think he is. Laura made some interesting points
0:05:05 > 0:05:09but I would disagree. This is evidence that the Prime Minister
0:05:09 > 0:05:13takes defence seriously. She has put in one of her most trusted aides,
0:05:13 > 0:05:17most trusted advisers, into a crucial job, as her time when she
0:05:17 > 0:05:20realises there are critical decisions coming in about the
0:05:20 > 0:05:24defence. The MoD is getting its case heard at the highest levels of
0:05:24 > 0:05:32government.What is his experience in that role? Mr Dunnett has
0:05:32 > 0:05:35questioned the appointment. He backs it broadly but questions whether he
0:05:35 > 0:05:41is suited to that role. We can just hear what he had to say.
0:05:41 > 0:05:44I would like to have seen one of the junior ministers in the
0:05:44 > 0:05:47Ministry of Defence promoted to be the Secretary of State for Defence,
0:05:47 > 0:05:49because coming from a defence background they knew the big issues
0:05:49 > 0:05:52which are really critical to defence at the present moment.
0:05:52 > 0:05:54But all that said, Theresa May is Prime Minister.
0:05:54 > 0:05:56She's got the job of leading our country.
0:05:56 > 0:05:58She needs support in the Cabinet and therefore I fully
0:05:58 > 0:06:00respect her decision to appoint her former Chief Whip
0:06:00 > 0:06:02as the next Secretary of State for Defence.
0:06:02 > 0:06:04I wish him well in that difficult task.
0:06:04 > 0:06:07But as well as supporting his Prime Minister, he has to make sure
0:06:07 > 0:06:10he really battles hard for defence and probably argue, as sir Michael
0:06:10 > 0:06:13Fallon has started to do, from what his increase
0:06:13 > 0:06:20in the defence budget.
0:06:20 > 0:06:25He does not sound convinced. He knows extremely well the technical
0:06:25 > 0:06:30experts in the MoD wear uniform and the politicians are there to take
0:06:30 > 0:06:33the political decisions. What he will be surrounded with, the new
0:06:33 > 0:06:39secretary of defence will be surrounded with our people like the
0:06:39 > 0:06:42Vice Chief and the CGS and the first Sea Lord and the chief of the air
0:06:42 > 0:06:46staff who will come up with absolutely essential advice he will
0:06:46 > 0:06:50listen to and he will be making the political decisions. He is not a
0:06:50 > 0:06:55technical expert will stopThe implication what she did it from a
0:06:55 > 0:07:00position of weakness and not strength.There are positives and
0:07:00 > 0:07:05negatives with this appointment. He is a smart and talented guy who is
0:07:05 > 0:07:10very loyal to Theresa May. There will be people in the Tory Party who
0:07:10 > 0:07:15are very unhappy about. This decision is not risk free. She could
0:07:15 > 0:07:22have taken a safety first decision and promoted someone from within the
0:07:22 > 0:07:27of defence and moved someone across. -- the Ministry of Defence. No
0:07:27 > 0:07:31surprise move might have big benefits but it is not just a safety
0:07:31 > 0:07:35first move. Remember right now, the Tories, like other political
0:07:35 > 0:07:40parties, cannot be sure there will be other people who have to move.
0:07:40 > 0:07:44They have taken a calculation right now they can do this limited one up,
0:07:44 > 0:07:49one out and a few other things around the edges with Julia Smith
0:07:49 > 0:07:54and estimate they being promoted at it is not a safety first decision at
0:07:54 > 0:07:58a time when the Government cannot know it is out of danger. When it is
0:07:58 > 0:08:05a precision reshuffle. It did not want to do a wide-ranging reshuffle.
0:08:05 > 0:08:11--It is a precision reshuffle. Gavin Williamson has become Defence
0:08:11 > 0:08:16Secretary and Julian Smith has become Chief Whip. He has been
0:08:16 > 0:08:25promoted and will attend Cabinet. Estimate they, the newly elected
0:08:25 > 0:08:32Tory MP, re-elected, has become deputy Chief Whip. Gavin Williamson
0:08:32 > 0:08:38has vacated the role of dealing with the ongoing sexual harassment and
0:08:38 > 0:08:42Brexit and Universal Credit in a minority government that is fragile.
0:08:42 > 0:08:52Very tough. Julian Smith has been Gavin Williamson's Deputy. MPs are
0:08:52 > 0:08:56not going to be an used to having Julian Smith text in them, knocking
0:08:56 > 0:09:01at the door and saying, come on, this is what you will do. It is not
0:09:01 > 0:09:06a huge move for him to go up but for Esther McVey to go back into that
0:09:06 > 0:09:11senior position in terms of party management is a big jump. Looking at
0:09:11 > 0:09:15the three of them lined up, it is in part perhaps a bit of an answer to
0:09:15 > 0:09:19some of the problems that many people in the Tory Party has, partly
0:09:19 > 0:09:24about the younger generation but also about geographical reach.
0:09:24 > 0:09:31Victory for Yorkshire today and promotions for Julian Smith and
0:09:31 > 0:09:35Gavin Williamson. That is one of the other factors, it will change the
0:09:35 > 0:09:38look and feel of the Cabinet. Perhaps a woman could have become
0:09:38 > 0:09:46the Chief Whip. For Defence Secretary. And Chief Whip. You said
0:09:46 > 0:09:50at one stage would be great to be Prime Minister or Foreign Secretary.
0:09:50 > 0:09:56It would be great to serve in any position.You are talked about as a
0:09:56 > 0:09:58potential Defence Secretary amongst your colleagues. We waiting by the
0:09:58 > 0:10:07phone for a phone call?I have been getting on to be chair of the
0:10:07 > 0:10:11Foreign Affairs Committee. Esther has a rare talent. He is of two
0:10:11 > 0:10:17intakes and that is important. She spent the first few months getting
0:10:17 > 0:10:22to know us and again with the second intake. She really does reach across
0:10:22 > 0:10:29the party in a particular way. That is a fantastic appointment.We have
0:10:29 > 0:10:32discussed this before but it is a really important feature of the Tory
0:10:32 > 0:10:41Party. The 2015, 2010 and 17 intakes are now in the majority. People in
0:10:41 > 0:10:45the context of the emerging scandal around harassment and the
0:10:45 > 0:10:49allegations around them, the generational difference and shift in
0:10:49 > 0:10:53the power base really matters in terms of that context. There are
0:10:53 > 0:10:58more people in the 1922 now who see allegations which have been swirling
0:10:58 > 0:11:02around as obviously unacceptable and from a different era. They are the
0:11:02 > 0:11:07ones who are increasingly in charge of the party. We will discuss that
0:11:07 > 0:11:10in a moment. Thank you very much.
0:11:10 > 0:11:12So, as the revelations continue to come, senior politicians
0:11:12 > 0:11:14in Westminster are scrambling to get their house in order.
0:11:14 > 0:11:17Yesterday, the Prime Minister wrote to all the other party leaders
0:11:17 > 0:11:19in the Commons inviting them to a meeting next Monday
0:11:19 > 0:11:21to come up with the serious, swift, cross-party response
0:11:21 > 0:11:22this issue demands".
0:11:22 > 0:11:24Mrs May went on to call for a
0:11:24 > 0:11:27"common, transparent independent grievance procedure"
0:11:27 > 0:11:29for all those working in Parliament and said a dedicated support team
0:11:29 > 0:11:33should be available to all staff that would recommend
0:11:33 > 0:11:38all criminal allegations be reported to the police.
0:11:38 > 0:11:41The proposals come after further revelations appeared in the press
0:11:41 > 0:11:44including a former parliamentary intern telling the BBC
0:11:44 > 0:11:49that he was sexually assaulted by a former MP in 2012, and a report
0:11:49 > 0:11:51in the London Evening Standard
0:11:51 > 0:11:53about a woman alleging she was sexually assaulted
0:11:53 > 0:11:57by the Conservative MP she worked for.
0:11:57 > 0:12:00Meanwhile, First Minister Damian Green, who's been accused
0:12:00 > 0:12:03of inappropriate behaviour is being investigated by the Cabinet
0:12:03 > 0:12:08Secretary over whether he broke the ministerial code.
0:12:08 > 0:12:14However, there are claims some MPs are being unfairly accused.
0:12:14 > 0:12:17Conservative MPs Rory Stewart and Dominic Raab, whose names appear
0:12:17 > 0:12:22on a spreadsheet of unverified accusations, both went public
0:12:22 > 0:12:24to deny the allegations levelled against them.
0:12:24 > 0:12:26Speaking earlier today, the former Conseravative
0:12:26 > 0:12:29leader, Iain Duncan Smith, said the culture of Westminster
0:12:29 > 0:12:37had to change.
0:12:37 > 0:12:39At the end of the day, yes, there are sexual issues
0:12:39 > 0:12:43and there are some charges that are not as powerful as
0:12:43 > 0:12:46other charges, but the key element here is about abuse of power and I
0:12:46 > 0:12:49think that's a book point to dwell on.
0:12:49 > 0:12:52In any organisation that people use power to coerce people to do
0:12:52 > 0:12:55things that they would not normally do, that is offensive behaviour and
0:12:55 > 0:12:59that is what this is really all about, which is to say, you know,
0:12:59 > 0:13:02even if that was sort of tolerated in the past,
0:13:02 > 0:13:05it will not be tolerated from here on.
0:13:05 > 0:13:08I'm joined now by the Shadow Women and Equalities Minister,
0:13:08 > 0:13:11Dawn Butler, and by the Conservative peer, Ann Jenkin, who founded
0:13:11 > 0:13:13the Women 2 Win campaign which aims to elect more Conservative women
0:13:13 > 0:13:20to Parliament.
0:13:20 > 0:13:25Michael Fallon said when he resigned that what was acceptable ten, 15
0:13:25 > 0:13:30years ago is clearly not acceptable now. Was it ever acceptable and you
0:13:30 > 0:13:35first started out in Parliament? That is a good point. I started
0:13:35 > 0:13:43working in Parliament in 1976. Like many of the young women who are
0:13:43 > 0:13:49there today. I was hit on pretty regularly. There was definitely
0:13:49 > 0:13:54nobody could have gone to, nobody to talk to. But the point I am very
0:13:54 > 0:13:59struck by is that in those days there were 4% of women MPs, 27 women
0:13:59 > 0:14:04in total in Parliament, and it was sort of an acceptable way of
0:14:04 > 0:14:11behaviour. Cecil Parkinson and all that happened around my date.Was it
0:14:11 > 0:14:16acceptable tolerated?I was never really assaulted in a way I felt
0:14:16 > 0:14:23deeply upset about.You were harassed.Asked to go back to MPs
0:14:23 > 0:14:28houses but I would not have dreamt of doing that. We slapped them down
0:14:28 > 0:14:33and moved on. I'm not suggesting that some bus stuff is really
0:14:33 > 0:14:36serious but with more women in Parliament, which has been Theresa
0:14:36 > 0:14:41May's a as well, not only other better decisions but a better
0:14:41 > 0:14:46environment and culture.Except it still goes on. Not all the
0:14:46 > 0:14:51allegations are historic. Some of them are relatively recent. Do you
0:14:51 > 0:14:54think there has been a sense that no one wants to rock the vote in the
0:14:54 > 0:15:02past and that is why people have been, to some extent allowed to get
0:15:02 > 0:15:06away with it?It is difficult for me to say. I don't hang about the
0:15:06 > 0:15:11sports and social club and do not think that is the case. I would like
0:15:11 > 0:15:15to make the point about these allegations. I was contacted by
0:15:15 > 0:15:21young woman who found herself on that list totally innocently. No
0:15:21 > 0:15:25inappropriate behaviour. This list is ruining peoples lives. Whether
0:15:25 > 0:15:29you deny it or not, you Google somebody in their careers are going
0:15:29 > 0:15:33to be destroyed as a result of this. There is a difference between
0:15:33 > 0:15:38allegations on the kind of swirling innuendo and rumour that
0:15:38 > 0:15:42everybody... We are just in the middle of this sort of terrible
0:15:42 > 0:15:47period. We have to calm down and sort out the difference between
0:15:47 > 0:15:50proper predatory behaviour, rape allegations and so on, and the kind
0:15:50 > 0:15:56of touching of a knee and consensual acts, which are also on that list.
0:15:56 > 0:16:01Do you think this list which has been doing the rounds with various
0:16:01 > 0:16:06MPs on it, Tory MPs, do think it has been helpful when a lot of the
0:16:06 > 0:16:08allegations, they are not allegations they are about
0:16:08 > 0:16:15extramarital affairs or sex between two consenting adults?
0:16:15 > 0:16:19I'm not sure I would describe it as being "helpful." Obviously to the
0:16:19 > 0:16:24whips it is the way they operate in terms of these are the situations
0:16:24 > 0:16:30that might embarrass the Government, so they keep a list and so I
0:16:30 > 0:16:33understand that to happen all the time in the Whip's Office. I used to
0:16:33 > 0:16:37be a whip. We did haven't a list like that. I wouldn't say it's
0:16:37 > 0:16:45helpful. I do agree with Ann in terms of if it's consenting adults,
0:16:45 > 0:16:48then that's different from predatory behaviour, which needs to be tackled
0:16:48 > 0:16:52and it was never acceptable. It might have been that women didn't
0:16:52 > 0:17:00feel they could speak out about it, but it was nevering acceptable in my
0:17:00 > 0:17:08opinion.Has the bar been set too low in judging politicians and
0:17:08 > 0:17:11whether they have behaved inappropriate or does "zero
0:17:11 > 0:17:16tolerance" need to be enacted hooer? I think it will be going forward.
0:17:16 > 0:17:19Maybe things people thought they could get away with will no longer
0:17:19 > 0:17:23be the case, not just by the action the Prime Minister is taking with
0:17:23 > 0:17:30the speaker and so on, I think the fear now will make a difference.
0:17:30 > 0:17:35That is the way we break the culture in Parliament. It was never
0:17:35 > 0:17:38acceptable. I think the Prime Minister has been slow to react, to
0:17:38 > 0:17:43be honest. I think she should suspend her ministers who haven't
0:17:43 > 0:17:52denied some wrongdoing.For example? Stephen Crabb. Once an investigation
0:17:52 > 0:17:56has taken place, then I think MPs should be suspended while this
0:17:56 > 0:18:00investigation takes place. I think that should be standard practise. I
0:18:00 > 0:18:03will be at the meeting on Monday with the Prime Minister. I look
0:18:03 > 0:18:07forward to working across all parties. I also think there's a
0:18:07 > 0:18:12valuable role for trade unions and the role that they play in
0:18:12 > 0:18:16Parliament that's often overlooked and dismissed maybe too easily.You
0:18:16 > 0:18:21mention Stephen Crabb - he's not a minister. Do you think Damian Green,
0:18:21 > 0:18:27the First Secretary of State being investigateded by the Cabinet
0:18:27 > 0:18:32Secretary, should he be suspended or resign while this is going on?I
0:18:32 > 0:18:37cannot comment on it until I hear the results of the investigation.
0:18:37 > 0:18:42These are allegations at the moment. But Dawn is right. It was never
0:18:42 > 0:18:46acceptable for people to be afraid for any reason to go into a
0:18:46 > 0:18:48workplace to demonstrate the fullness of their talents. It is
0:18:48 > 0:18:53something which has held back the UK that people have not been feeling
0:18:53 > 0:18:57comfortable in workplaces over previous years. They should do now.
0:18:57 > 0:19:03We should all feel safe and express oural lents whatever they are.Are
0:19:03 > 0:19:07you frustrated by the some of your older colleagues? Do you think
0:19:07 > 0:19:10there's a generational issue in the Houses of Parliament that behaviour
0:19:10 > 0:19:15that some of your older colleagues in the House might think was
0:19:15 > 0:19:20acceptable, for you and your contemporaries is not?It would be
0:19:20 > 0:19:23absolutely unfair to blame an older generation, most of whom are
0:19:23 > 0:19:27blameless of this. And the action the Prime Minister has taken has
0:19:27 > 0:19:30been very quick because she realises that this is not only
0:19:30 > 0:19:35unacceptable...Except Michael Fallon said what happens what was
0:19:35 > 0:19:39acceptable 10-15 years ago is not now. What did you think of that?
0:19:39 > 0:19:42Michael Fallon has resigned. I will not comment on his statement. The
0:19:42 > 0:19:47Prime Minister has answered it. What I will say is...What does it say
0:19:47 > 0:19:51about that generation?His comments on his generation are for him to
0:19:51 > 0:19:55make. The comment I am making is that generation wasn't all guilty it
0:19:55 > 0:20:01would be wrong...It is about a difference of behaviour in how you
0:20:01 > 0:20:13actually set new standards and whether it will be possible.
0:20:18 > 0:20:25Do you think there'll have to be more resetting in order to reset
0:20:25 > 0:20:30impropriety?The new conduct which is coming will be very clear.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33Anybody can now make allegations about anything. I mean they could
0:20:33 > 0:20:39make completely false ones. They could say I was in a lift with
0:20:39 > 0:20:44someone and he pressed up against me. You have to be careful going
0:20:44 > 0:20:48forward.Do people have to have someone they can speak to?Yes.
0:20:48 > 0:20:54Because of how MPs are self-employed you can not go to anybody apart from
0:20:54 > 0:20:57the managers who are political in that strict sense of the word and
0:20:57 > 0:21:01they will do what they can to protect, wrongly,s many people
0:21:01 > 0:21:04think, their own side.That is exactly what's going to be sorted
0:21:04 > 0:21:08out going forward.If you are looking ahead and the line which has
0:21:08 > 0:21:12to be drawn, do you think, Dawn Butler, now that anything like hands
0:21:12 > 0:21:16on knees, which was the allegation and the claim made about Michael
0:21:16 > 0:21:21Fallon, that all of that now has to stop and will stop?I think if it's
0:21:21 > 0:21:33not consensual it's harassment. Not whether you put your hand on their
0:21:33 > 0:21:36knee, whether it is with permission. If you brush that arm away and say
0:21:36 > 0:21:39whatever to that person, that is not the point or issue. That is how we
0:21:39 > 0:21:44break the culture. We break the culture by tackling all of the
0:21:44 > 0:21:48harassment cases. If you don't start with the little things, it makes it
0:21:48 > 0:21:52harder to deal with the bigger things.There have been fairly
0:21:52 > 0:21:57serious allegations that obviously Labour are having to deal with.
0:21:57 > 0:22:06Firstly the case of Jared O' Mara. He has lost the whip. Aallegation
0:22:06 > 0:22:09made against a Labour Party official. What is Labour doing at
0:22:09 > 0:22:18this point? ?As you said Jared has been suspended from the whip while
0:22:18 > 0:22:21the ingestgation takes place.How long will it take?I don't know.
0:22:21 > 0:22:25It's an investigation. So we have to let the investigation take its
0:22:25 > 0:22:31course. The Labour Party has very strong, robust procedures, which
0:22:31 > 0:22:39it's had for years. But it's been improved oh d over the last 12
0:22:39 > 0:22:45months. This week there's been a bit ratified by the executive committee.
0:22:45 > 0:22:48We take this very, very seriously. We have worked with the trade
0:22:48 > 0:22:58unions. We have worked with ACAS, with leading legal experts to make
0:22:58 > 0:23:03sure our policy is robust. In relation to Bex Bailey, who had
0:23:03 > 0:23:07confidence to talk about herpublicly, she talks about the
0:23:07 > 0:23:10independence of our policies and reviews, and there is independence
0:23:10 > 0:23:14built into our policies. We are looking how we make it even more
0:23:14 > 0:23:25independent. As you said, you need to feel comfortable and that it will
0:23:25 > 0:23:30be taken seriously.The allegation was horrendous, but the other part
0:23:30 > 0:23:33of her story was she went to speak to somebody within the Labour Party.
0:23:33 > 0:23:38Someone senior. She didn't feel her concerns were taken on. In fact,
0:23:38 > 0:23:42quite the opposite. She was told that her career may be harmed. What
0:23:42 > 0:23:47do you think about that as a woman in the Labour Party?I'm devastated
0:23:47 > 0:23:52that could ever happen. But the policy that the Labour has now and
0:23:52 > 0:23:55the procedures wasn't in place then. Are you saying it could never happen
0:23:55 > 0:24:00now?I'm certain the policies in place now would ensure that wouldn't
0:24:00 > 0:24:06happen. But what happened needs to be investigated. We're going to be
0:24:06 > 0:24:14breaking the culture of, you know, that we tackle whatever happened, to
0:24:14 > 0:24:16make somebody think it was OK to give that information.If someone
0:24:16 > 0:24:21came to you now saying they had been sexually harassed, what would you
0:24:21 > 0:24:27say to them?I think now the procedures will be in place.
0:24:27 > 0:24:31Actually, it's more likely I'm getting people at the moment who say
0:24:31 > 0:24:35I haven't been andvy the highest respect for the MP I work for and we
0:24:35 > 0:24:39find ourselves in this terrible storm. In the old days, before there
0:24:39 > 0:24:44were new procedures I would have gone to the Whip's Office and made
0:24:44 > 0:24:49sure that whoever it was that was, who had the allegations made against
0:24:49 > 0:24:53them was properly looked into.Do you this I the people who feel they
0:24:53 > 0:24:57have been wrongly accused and there is some anger and fear, will they
0:24:57 > 0:25:01take legal action? Do you think we will see action taken?I hear
0:25:01 > 0:25:06rumours there might be. Of course that is very expensive and there are
0:25:06 > 0:25:10probably not many MPs in a position to be able to do that. We have to be
0:25:10 > 0:25:14really careful about getting this right and that people who are
0:25:14 > 0:25:19innocent and are not going to be witch-hunted as well as the people
0:25:19 > 0:25:23who are guilty. Thank you very much.
0:25:23 > 0:25:28Now some breaking news. As we came on air, the beaning confirmed that
0:25:28 > 0:25:34interests are to rise by 0. 25% to 0.5%. That is a significant moment.
0:25:34 > 0:25:39This is the first increase in just over a decade. And it had been
0:25:39 > 0:25:45speculated about over the last few months. What will it mean for
0:25:45 > 0:25:49mortgages and saving accounts, inflation exchange rates. I am
0:25:49 > 0:25:54joined now by Simon Gompertz.
0:25:54 > 0:26:01It is the first rise in over 10 years.It is a big moment. Interest
0:26:01 > 0:26:05rates have doubled to just half a per cent. So they are still very
0:26:05 > 0:26:10low. It's been eight years since they started being ultra low. During
0:26:10 > 0:26:14that time since the financial crisis the Bank of England judged the
0:26:14 > 0:26:18economy needed cheap money to prop it up. Recently unemployment's been
0:26:18 > 0:26:22very low. Inflation's reignited. So they have decided this is the moment
0:26:22 > 0:26:29to push them up. And it's a watershed. But in the financial
0:26:29 > 0:26:32markets, first of all there was an increase in the pound. Since then
0:26:32 > 0:26:36it's been up and down. That is because it's not just the increase
0:26:36 > 0:26:40in interest rates that they are looking at, it is the sub text,
0:26:40 > 0:26:44what's written behind that and what the bank has said is that further
0:26:44 > 0:26:48increases will be gradually in their pace and limited in their extent. So
0:26:48 > 0:26:52once the markets look at that, the pound fell back again. It's all
0:26:52 > 0:26:57about what sort of return you get from holding your money in sterling
0:26:57 > 0:27:00and they are thinking perhaps that won't rise very fast, that limited
0:27:00 > 0:27:05extent and in some of the forecasts that the bank has issued, it seems
0:27:05 > 0:27:09to indicate that there might be another increase, but a small one,
0:27:09 > 0:27:13another 0. 25% next year and we wouldn't get to 1% interest rates.
0:27:13 > 0:27:19Still very low in historic terms until about 2020.It is still low in
0:27:19 > 0:27:23historic terms. Obviously over the last ten years that has been the
0:27:23 > 0:27:27status quo, if you like and people have got used to it. And there'll be
0:27:27 > 0:27:34many people who will worry about going, mortgages going up, about an
0:27:34 > 0:27:37increase in their monthly payments and that will spread a certain
0:27:37 > 0:27:43amount of concern, won't it?It will. You can say well mortgages are
0:27:43 > 0:27:47cheap in historic terms because mortgages are so low, but so many
0:27:47 > 0:27:50people have bought assuming their mortgage rate will be low so they
0:27:50 > 0:27:54have borrowed more. If interest goes up they could be up against this.
0:27:54 > 0:27:59This small increase of 0. 25%, there are around 17 million people with
0:27:59 > 0:28:04mortgages. Around nine million actual mortgages - a lot of those
0:28:04 > 0:28:08are couples. The people with variable rate mortgages, the ones
0:28:08 > 0:28:15affected might see an increase of around £12 a month. So some people
0:28:15 > 0:28:19say that that's the straw that breaks the camel's back. For others
0:28:19 > 0:28:23it will not be very big. What they will look at is whether there are
0:28:23 > 0:28:28more coming along. That is a concern for many people. You have savers -
0:28:28 > 0:28:3445 million savers in this country will hope that after years of small
0:28:34 > 0:28:39returns on their savings they will get more back. The ISA is around
0:28:39 > 0:28:44£10,000. The average interest rate would have got you £30 a year on
0:28:44 > 0:28:49that. With this increase, maybe £50 a year. So, some light at the end of
0:28:49 > 0:28:54the tunnel for savers there.Thank you very much.
0:28:54 > 0:28:58Do you welcome this rise?I welcome the fact the Bank of England has
0:28:58 > 0:29:02taken this decision. I think it is right to recognise that the economy
0:29:02 > 0:29:08is progressing well. And that therefore a bit of a rise in the
0:29:08 > 0:29:13interest rate...There will be many people who say, actually from their
0:29:13 > 0:29:16perspective, the economy is not progressing well in terms of wage
0:29:16 > 0:29:20stagnation and the fact that inflation has reached 3%. They will
0:29:20 > 0:29:26say that 0. 25% will make it harder to meet monthly payments.As Simon
0:29:26 > 0:29:30Gompertz just said, a lot of people are savers and it will make a big
0:29:30 > 0:29:35difference for them. Of course we now have record employment levels
0:29:35 > 0:29:39and a record low unemployment level. So for many the indication of a
0:29:39 > 0:29:42strong economy are definitely there.
0:29:43 > 0:29:46Ministers are under fresh pressure to publish a series
0:29:46 > 0:29:47of Brexit impact studies following a Commons
0:29:47 > 0:29:50debate yesterday.
0:29:50 > 0:29:54Some Conservative MPs joined Labour in calling for the 58 documents,
0:29:54 > 0:29:58which focus on different sectors of the economy, to be put
0:29:58 > 0:29:59in the public domain.
0:29:59 > 0:30:02Labour is seeking to use an arcane Parliamentary procedure,
0:30:02 > 0:30:04known as a 'humble address', to try to force
0:30:04 > 0:30:06the Government's hand.
0:30:06 > 0:30:08Ministers say they will now consider the matter although they have argued
0:30:08 > 0:30:11that publication could undermine the ongoing negotiations
0:30:11 > 0:30:12with the EU.
0:30:12 > 0:30:20Here's a flavour of last night's debate.
0:30:20 > 0:30:26Looking at the list, which I have here, two things are obvious.
0:30:26 > 0:30:29The first is that in many ways it's unremarkable and could and should
0:30:29 > 0:30:33have been published months ago.
0:30:33 > 0:30:39The second is that the wide range of sectors analysed demonstrate why
0:30:39 > 0:30:42it's so important for members of this House to see the
0:30:42 > 0:30:42impact assessment.
0:30:42 > 0:30:45It is normal for Select Committees themselves to request
0:30:45 > 0:30:47information, not to get the opposition, the official
0:30:47 > 0:30:50opposition, to do it on their behalf.
0:30:50 > 0:30:52This is gameplaying.
0:30:52 > 0:30:59Every time, every time somebody raises a legitimate
0:30:59 > 0:31:02question, it's suggested that somehow they're
0:31:02 > 0:31:05frustrating or undermining the process.
0:31:05 > 0:31:08The House will appreciate the more information for that is shared more
0:31:08 > 0:31:10widely, the less secure our negotiating position and the harder
0:31:10 > 0:31:13it becomes to secure the right deal for the British people.
0:31:13 > 0:31:15The House has the right to require the
0:31:15 > 0:31:16release of documents, but I sincerely hope
0:31:16 > 0:31:19in what is requested in terms of how they guarantee the
0:31:19 > 0:31:21necessary confidentiality going forward and how much
0:31:21 > 0:31:23is requested by the opposition spokesman, the Select
0:31:23 > 0:31:25Committee and the House will be mindful of the job that ministers
0:31:25 > 0:31:26need to do.
0:31:26 > 0:31:29That job is to secure the vital national interests of the
0:31:29 > 0:31:37United Kingdom as we negotiate our departure from the European Union.
0:31:37 > 0:31:41THE SPEAKER: Traditionally, such motions have been regarded
0:31:41 > 0:31:44as binding or effective, consistent with that established pattern
0:31:44 > 0:31:45and tradition.
0:31:45 > 0:31:48I would expect the address to be presented by the Vice
0:31:48 > 0:31:50Chamberlain of the Household in the usual way.
0:31:50 > 0:31:55However, I would add that I think it's sensible for us, for
0:31:55 > 0:32:05the House, to wait for the Government's response.
0:32:06 > 0:32:08We're joined now by Matthew Pennycook, who's
0:32:08 > 0:32:11a Shadow Brexit Minister.
0:32:11 > 0:32:17Welcome. What do you think we will learn from these impact assessments?
0:32:17 > 0:32:21Hopefully we will only impact of different Brexit scenarios on a
0:32:21 > 0:32:28range of sectors of the economy that this covers. Covering 29 million
0:32:28 > 0:32:33people at work, 88% of the economy. That is why to assemble and that the
0:32:33 > 0:32:37select committee has sight of them. They need to have more grip around
0:32:37 > 0:32:42the process and look at what the impact would be for businesses,
0:32:42 > 0:32:44communities and individuals.Why doesn't the Government just
0:32:44 > 0:32:52published them?I spoke to my whip yesterday and said I was encouraging
0:32:52 > 0:32:57him to do so. He listened and acknowledged it.I do think it is
0:32:57 > 0:33:03important to be open about this?Has much as possible we should be
0:33:03 > 0:33:07opened. We are representatives are not rulers will are here to try to
0:33:07 > 0:33:10make the best decisions we should be as open as possible. We should not
0:33:10 > 0:33:14be so open that we damage negotiations that we are conducting
0:33:14 > 0:33:19damage any form of secrecy that protect the nation. The lives it is
0:33:19 > 0:33:27not that, I am in favour of openness. -- so long it is not that.
0:33:27 > 0:33:32They say it will undermine the UK's negotiating position? Sign that is
0:33:32 > 0:33:37why the Government has agreed to publish it with certain reductions.
0:33:37 > 0:33:42They might say their hands are bound.We have always said, and we
0:33:42 > 0:33:46accept the principle, you should not reveal anything where a case could
0:33:46 > 0:33:51be convincingly made that it undermines the national interest. If
0:33:51 > 0:33:55the Government felt so strongly about it, it was their defence if
0:33:55 > 0:34:00they felt publication of these assessments in any form would have
0:34:00 > 0:34:02compromised the negotiating position, they should have voted
0:34:02 > 0:34:08against. They accept the principle that the report should go to the
0:34:08 > 0:34:13select committee. I welcome the moves that were made this morning.
0:34:13 > 0:34:16He has spoken to the chair of the select committee. They will come
0:34:16 > 0:34:22together and decide how the select committee publishes it in a format
0:34:22 > 0:34:27does not undermine negotiations. Surely the Government would have
0:34:27 > 0:34:32opposed the vote.David Davis has a long history of campaigning for
0:34:32 > 0:34:35human rights and the rights of Parliament and the rights of the
0:34:35 > 0:34:39British people. I'm sure he will take the right decision in there.
0:34:39 > 0:34:50Hilary Benn is of high integrity. I'm sure they will come to the right
0:34:50 > 0:34:52answer that reveals as much as possible, which is important but
0:34:52 > 0:34:55also make sure negotiations are protected.In terms of redacted
0:34:55 > 0:34:59information, if so much of it is blocked out that we will not learn
0:34:59 > 0:35:14very much, will we?I think the select committee, the Brexit select
0:35:14 > 0:35:17committee, should get the studies in full. It should be up to them to
0:35:17 > 0:35:24decide how it should be published in a wider sense. The Brexit select
0:35:24 > 0:35:28committee has a government majority and serious parliamentarians who
0:35:28 > 0:35:31have been scrutinising the whole process in minute detail they should
0:35:31 > 0:35:36be odd to see the studies. It is about us representing our
0:35:36 > 0:35:40constituents and only impact of different scenarios and being able
0:35:40 > 0:35:45to make a considered judgment on their behalf. It is about Parliament
0:35:45 > 0:35:49taking back control of the process. There were reports that the Queen
0:35:49 > 0:35:57would have to make a statement on the issue.I read that story myself.
0:35:57 > 0:36:04A government source suggested that. As Jacob Rees Mogg said yesterday, a
0:36:04 > 0:36:08long-standing, Parliamentary power that we exercised last night to
0:36:08 > 0:36:12court papers and information forward. This should not have been
0:36:12 > 0:36:18controversial. The Government, as in many aspects of the process, has had
0:36:18 > 0:36:22to be dragged, kicking and screaming, rather than taking it on
0:36:22 > 0:36:28board as a critical friend and taking the information which could
0:36:28 > 0:36:34legitimately have been seen by the select committee.You said you would
0:36:34 > 0:36:37like to see these documents published. Do you think the
0:36:37 > 0:36:43Government is not giving Parliament generally enough say on Brexit?We
0:36:43 > 0:36:48seem to be speaking about Brexit every day and for several hours each
0:36:48 > 0:36:55day. It is not including not only the Brexit select committee which is
0:36:55 > 0:36:58covering very specifically the negotiations actually the Defra
0:36:58 > 0:37:01committee, the home affairs committee and many other committees
0:37:01 > 0:37:07which are covering other elements within the process.You have had
0:37:07 > 0:37:10success. The Government did not oppose the vote and the documents
0:37:10 > 0:37:15will be published. I don't know the timescale. Do except what is being
0:37:15 > 0:37:21said in general that Parliament is having a substantial say over
0:37:21 > 0:37:26Brexit? Parliament is having a lot of discussion about Brexit. Whether
0:37:26 > 0:37:29the select committee has the information it needs to have a
0:37:29 > 0:37:34thoughtful debate about the economic impact of different scenarios,
0:37:34 > 0:37:38Brexit, on different sectors, that is what last night was about. We did
0:37:38 > 0:37:43not have that the forefoot of it has been going on since late last year.
0:37:43 > 0:37:52The Government has been forced by parliament last night, people joined
0:37:52 > 0:37:56with us to say this have to happen. This humble address will make sure
0:37:56 > 0:38:00it has. We will look forward to speaking to you or Hilary Benn about
0:38:00 > 0:38:06the contents of those assessments.
0:38:06 > 0:38:09Since we have been on and the Prime
0:38:09 > 0:38:16Minister has welcomed her Australian counterpart to Downing Street.
0:38:16 > 0:38:18He's in the UK to mark the 100th anniversary
0:38:18 > 0:38:21of the Balfour Declaration - the pledge by the then
0:38:21 > 0:38:23British Foreign Secretary which paved the way
0:38:23 > 0:38:24for the creation of Israel.
0:38:24 > 0:38:26Israel and Jewish communities view the pledge as momentous,
0:38:26 > 0:38:28while Palestinians regard it as a historical injustice.
0:38:28 > 0:38:30The UK has rejected calls to apologise and has said
0:38:30 > 0:38:32it is proud of its role.
0:38:32 > 0:38:35We'll discuss all that in a moment, but first Elizabeth Glinka reports
0:38:35 > 0:38:45on the significance of the Balfour Declaration.
0:38:47 > 0:38:55The modern state of Israel was born in 1948. For the Jews, the
0:38:55 > 0:38:59realisation of a dream. For Palestinians, the great catastrophe.
0:38:59 > 0:39:03Many see the roots of that birth in a short letter that was written here
0:39:03 > 0:39:09at the Foreign Office 30 years earlier, on 2nd of November, 1917.
0:39:09 > 0:39:12The then Foreign Secretary Arthur Bower for road to Rothschild, a
0:39:12 > 0:39:17leading member of the British Jewish community is then the Government
0:39:17 > 0:39:21would give its best endeavours to create a homeland for the Jewish
0:39:21 > 0:39:26people in Palestine.It was the moment that then most powerful
0:39:26 > 0:39:29country on earth, Britain, when it still had an empire, just before the
0:39:29 > 0:39:35end of the First World War, recognised the right of the Jews to
0:39:35 > 0:39:39a national home in Palestine. It was then part of the Ottoman Empire and
0:39:39 > 0:39:45was about to be occupied in conquered by the British.As the war
0:39:45 > 0:39:50on the Western front raged, it fulfilled a political necessity to
0:39:50 > 0:39:55fill the void created as the Ottoman Turks withdrew. It allowed men like
0:39:55 > 0:39:59Balfour and the Prime Minister, David Lloyd George Glad to act on
0:39:59 > 0:40:02the digits convictions, supporting idea that the Jews might once again
0:40:02 > 0:40:10make their home in the promised land. While a significant number of
0:40:10 > 0:40:15Jews were living in Jerusalem, 90% of the population in the rest of the
0:40:15 > 0:40:18territories where Palestinians. They think persecution elsewhere, the
0:40:18 > 0:40:23declaration meant the rate of Jewish migration sped up. By the time the
0:40:23 > 0:40:28league of Nations approve the plan in 1922, more than 100,000 Jews had
0:40:28 > 0:40:35arrived in Palestine. And yet, the language of Balfour's to does not
0:40:35 > 0:40:40begin and end with support for the Jewish state was it does not use the
0:40:40 > 0:40:43words Jewish state at all. It includes qualifications that nothing
0:40:43 > 0:40:47should be done to prejudice the rights of non-Jewish communities and
0:40:47 > 0:40:54that it should not affect the status of Jews living in other countries.
0:40:54 > 0:40:57The majority view amongst Palestinians is that the declaration
0:40:57 > 0:41:03spells catastrophe. Some argue that need not have been the case.If
0:41:03 > 0:41:06Britain had here to the language of the Balfour Declaration, in my
0:41:06 > 0:41:09opinion things would have been very different. The Middle East and
0:41:09 > 0:41:13probably the world at large would have been a happier place. I want to
0:41:13 > 0:41:18acknowledge that while we cannot go back, we also have a moral
0:41:18 > 0:41:23obligation to do something, to make things better.The birth of a much
0:41:23 > 0:41:28longed for homeland for people persecuted and despised elsewhere.
0:41:28 > 0:41:34All the root cause of destitution, suffering and destitution. Hundreds
0:41:34 > 0:41:37of years later interpretations of the Balfour Declaration are as
0:41:37 > 0:41:41divided as the conflict itself.
0:41:41 > 0:41:43To discuss this, I'm joined now by the former
0:41:43 > 0:41:45deputy Secretary-General of the United Nations
0:41:45 > 0:41:47and former Foreign Office Minister under Gordon Brown,
0:41:47 > 0:41:49Mark Malloch-Brown.
0:41:49 > 0:41:56Welcome to the studio. Is the Balfour Declaration of 1917 piece of
0:41:56 > 0:42:00British foreign policy that should be celebrated?Strangely it is two
0:42:00 > 0:42:04claims that it should be a home for Jews in the Middle East even though
0:42:04 > 0:42:08it is not described as a state and yet the rights of the Palestinians
0:42:08 > 0:42:14and other Arab groups should be protected actually remains an
0:42:14 > 0:42:17extraordinary consistent framework for policy. There have been many
0:42:17 > 0:42:21deviations from it in the years between. I am sure that Balfour,
0:42:21 > 0:42:26when he wrote the 67 word letter, had no idea how it would echo down
0:42:26 > 0:42:30the years and beset the consequential document 100 years
0:42:30 > 0:42:35later. So, it has had its ups and downs and it should be recognised as
0:42:35 > 0:42:41a significant document.You don't see that it was in some ways
0:42:41 > 0:42:45duplicitous because of the promise also to the non-Jewish communities
0:42:45 > 0:42:48and the other ethnic groups that were there at the time, that their
0:42:48 > 0:42:54rights should not in any way be marginalised. And yet has never
0:42:54 > 0:42:58lived up to that.Policy has not lived up to the promise of the
0:42:58 > 0:43:02letter at all. There have been a hundred years of duplicity go much
0:43:02 > 0:43:05wider than this letter. The other thing to be understood as we look at
0:43:05 > 0:43:10it through this narrow frame of a letter to Lord Rothschild from the
0:43:10 > 0:43:14British Foreign Secretary, as though it was cooked up in the Westminster
0:43:14 > 0:43:18bubble of the time, and the financial bubble in the city at the
0:43:18 > 0:43:23time. In fact, it was really produced by much broader issues, the
0:43:23 > 0:43:29collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the potential division of Labour between
0:43:29 > 0:43:32France, or division of influence between Britain and France in the
0:43:32 > 0:43:35Middle East. There was a lot more cooking behind that letter than just
0:43:35 > 0:43:41protection of the rights of Jews. Right. Do you agree with Mark
0:43:41 > 0:43:45Malloch Brown in the sense that the promises that were in the letter, it
0:43:45 > 0:43:50is a piece of British foreign policy which has not lived up to what it
0:43:50 > 0:43:54intended to happen?I agree absolutely with Mark Malik Branfoot
0:43:54 > 0:43:59gets written at a certain time in the First World War, at time when
0:43:59 > 0:44:02Britain was fighting for national survival and was not at all sure of
0:44:02 > 0:44:06winning on the Western front and was looking for allies and friends
0:44:06 > 0:44:09everywhere. That is why it is a piece of paper that is written in a
0:44:09 > 0:44:16very careful way. As lord Malik Brown puts it, with competing
0:44:16 > 0:44:23interests. It is a moment when, for the first time, the United Kingdom
0:44:23 > 0:44:28government recognises that the people of Israel, the Jews, have a
0:44:28 > 0:44:31right to self-determination and a homeland in that sense it is a very
0:44:31 > 0:44:36important document.Some say it is very important for there to be a
0:44:36 > 0:44:41homeland, the state, for Jews to go and live. There are those who say
0:44:41 > 0:44:45the Balfour Declaration was a mistake, are they saying that Israel
0:44:45 > 0:44:50doesn't have a right to exist?It is two things. I would hope there are
0:44:50 > 0:44:55very few left to claim that Israel does have a right to exist. I know
0:44:55 > 0:44:59there remains the outstanding diplomatic issue of how the
0:44:59 > 0:45:04Palestinians fully recognise and acknowledge that. I think, to be
0:45:04 > 0:45:08honest, today's to system is much more about the other half, the
0:45:08 > 0:45:12promise of protecting the rights of Palestinians and the failure to
0:45:12 > 0:45:20deliver on that. It is a tragedy that on the one hand you have the
0:45:20 > 0:45:23one Democratic state of the region, Israel, and yet, the cost of that is
0:45:23 > 0:45:265 million Palestinians in their fourth or fifth generation of Exxon
0:45:26 > 0:45:31living in camps and an unsolved tragedy.Do you agree with Jeremy
0:45:31 > 0:45:35Corbyn, the Labour leader, he won't be attending the dinner tonight,
0:45:35 > 0:45:39that not enough has been said by successive British governments about
0:45:39 > 0:45:46that tragedy?If I were invited to dinner, I would certainly go. It is
0:45:46 > 0:45:53in every way a significant event. If one went, it would be to remind
0:45:53 > 0:45:56Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel that he cannot turn his back
0:45:56 > 0:46:01on finding a solution to this crisis. Frankly, the problem today
0:46:01 > 0:46:05is of the impetus for a negotiated solution to the Palestinian issue
0:46:05 > 0:46:10being much less than it has been for some decades. We are at a moment
0:46:10 > 0:46:14where it has frankly been beached and put aside.Isn't that then a
0:46:14 > 0:46:18strong statement being sent by the Labour leader that he does not want
0:46:18 > 0:46:24to grace this dinner because of his opposition to what he says is
0:46:24 > 0:46:27obviously occupied territory, expansion of illegal settlements in
0:46:27 > 0:46:36the West Bank? That that is a stronger signal to send to Benjamin
0:46:36 > 0:46:39Netanyahu?The signal that Labour has been sending to the Israeli
0:46:39 > 0:46:43people of the last few years has been concerning. I'm sorry that he
0:46:43 > 0:46:46has decided not to attend the dinner. It would have made a for
0:46:46 > 0:46:51some of the incidents we have seen in recent months. I think we should
0:46:51 > 0:46:54recognise that many of the soldiers I had great privilege to serve with
0:46:54 > 0:46:58in Afghanistan and Iraq are alive because of Israeli technology and
0:46:58 > 0:47:04counter IED is they shared with us as allies and friends.How do you
0:47:04 > 0:47:06view the Israeli, Palestinian conflict in terms of the wider
0:47:06 > 0:47:09geopolitics?
0:47:09 > 0:47:16It is quite clear it is an important important issue to resolve. We have
0:47:16 > 0:47:20to recognise that we are one of many countries now who have a voice in
0:47:20 > 0:47:29the region, but not the colonial over-Lord we were pre-1947.You
0:47:29 > 0:47:32wrote the Arab-Israeli conflict didn't matter in terms of the Arab
0:47:32 > 0:47:42Spring.Exactly.What did you mean If you went to Cairo and to other
0:47:42 > 0:47:46places around the area, if you saw Beirut they didn't talk about
0:47:46 > 0:47:50Israel. They talked about self-determination, economic
0:47:50 > 0:48:00empowerful. The word Israel never crossed the mouths of people.
0:48:00 > 0:48:05Do you agree some way, politically, in parts of the Arab world, that
0:48:05 > 0:48:10that conflict, which so many people want to see resolve is often used to
0:48:10 > 0:48:14deflect attention away from very serious issues within the countries
0:48:14 > 0:48:18that Tom Tugendhat has talking about?I do, actually. I would say
0:48:18 > 0:48:23that the seeds of all the problems in the Middle East, strangely, or
0:48:23 > 0:48:28many were set in the same period as this declaration where we have got a
0:48:28 > 0:48:33whole set of sort of half-baked national borders through the region.
0:48:33 > 0:48:37The whole issue of national determination and the
0:48:37 > 0:48:43self-determination in the Middle East is much wider than just
0:48:43 > 0:48:49Israel-plain. We have a dangerous -- Israel Palestinian. We have
0:48:49 > 0:48:53dangerous conflict and behind it conservative regimes failing to sort
0:48:53 > 0:49:05of embrace and include their ever younger, larger larger demography.
0:49:05 > 0:49:10It faces jeopardy from a very dangerous neighbourhood.Do you
0:49:10 > 0:49:15think, are we ever going to see a Palestinian state in the next sort
0:49:15 > 0:49:22of ten years?As I say, I think temporarily at least the goal has
0:49:22 > 0:49:28been set one. There will not be one which does not include a Palestinian
0:49:28 > 0:49:31state among other political things which have to be achieved as well.
0:49:31 > 0:49:32Thank you.
0:49:35 > 0:49:37Let's return to our main story: the appointment of Gavin Williamson
0:49:37 > 0:49:39as the new Defence Secretary following the resignation
0:49:39 > 0:49:40of Michael Fallon last night.
0:49:40 > 0:49:43I'm joined now by Tom Newton Dunn, political editor of The Sun,
0:49:43 > 0:49:45and Kate McCann, political correspondent for
0:49:45 > 0:49:48The Daily Telegraph.
0:49:50 > 0:49:55Welcome to both of you. Your reaction to Gavin Williamson. Were
0:49:55 > 0:49:59you surprised?Yes. Intensely surprised. No other way of putting
0:49:59 > 0:50:07it. It is a fascinating appointment. High risk. We have seen some quite
0:50:07 > 0:50:12verbous reaction from people within -- vicious reaction from people
0:50:12 > 0:50:16criticising it. It is the sort of move a Prime Minister makes knowing
0:50:16 > 0:50:22very well that the first thing we all end up writing about is House of
0:50:22 > 0:50:28Cards comparisons. Is he plotting a secret rise? To do that and go
0:50:28 > 0:50:31through that Theresa May has to be quite sure this is going to work out
0:50:31 > 0:50:36in the long-term. I think there's a lot of interesting reasons. Brexit
0:50:36 > 0:50:40negotiations is an important one. The Defence Secretary has a key seat
0:50:40 > 0:50:43on the Cabinet negotiation sub committee, which will decide what
0:50:43 > 0:50:51happens, what we ask for. It is those long-term long-term
0:50:51 > 0:50:57calculations.Gavin Williamson has been put in post, promoted from
0:50:57 > 0:51:01Chief Whip to that role of Defence Secretary. Were you surprised to
0:51:01 > 0:51:04hear Michael Fallon had resigned last night?Yes. We were surprised
0:51:04 > 0:51:09last night and again this morning. There were some surprised noises
0:51:09 > 0:51:12come from the press gallery corridor. Michael Fallon is an
0:51:12 > 0:51:16interesting case. The Sun's front-page looked incredibly bad for
0:51:16 > 0:51:21him. There's not been anything else come out since then. What was
0:51:21 > 0:51:25interesting listening to friends of Michael Fallon last night saying
0:51:25 > 0:51:29maybe some of his behaviour from 15 years ago, which at the time might
0:51:29 > 0:51:35have been seen as flirting may not be seen the same way now. If that is
0:51:35 > 0:51:38enough for a senior Cabinet minister to resign their position what does
0:51:38 > 0:51:43it mean for others on this list? What does it mean for the other
0:51:43 > 0:51:45high-profile names that we are asking questions about that? This
0:51:45 > 0:51:49might be the start of something bigger. There are definitely
0:51:49 > 0:51:52questions for people like Damian Green, who is facing an
0:51:52 > 0:51:58investigation himself.The that is the bar which has been set from what
0:51:58 > 0:52:03we know and from what Michael Fallon he himself has said about this
0:52:03 > 0:52:07unacceptable behaviour as seen through today's prism, do you think
0:52:07 > 0:52:13there'll be other Cabinet ministers resigning?I think there will be
0:52:13 > 0:52:16other ministers resigning, but I don't think for that reason,
0:52:16 > 0:52:22strangely enough. The bar hasn't been lowered. Michael Fallon went
0:52:22 > 0:52:29not because he touched a knee 15 years ago at a drunken dinner. There
0:52:29 > 0:52:33are worse examples of inappropriate behaviour by him. He went for that
0:52:33 > 0:52:38reason alone. I think we may find out in the next few days exactly
0:52:38 > 0:52:42what those further allegations were. I am now sure there are further
0:52:42 > 0:52:47allegations. That doesn't necessarily mean any other ministers
0:52:47 > 0:52:51have to go for mildly inappropriate, still wrong behaviour. I do think
0:52:51 > 0:52:55there are at least one or two ministers, who we know the names of
0:52:55 > 0:52:59and you know the names of two, who are known for this sort of
0:52:59 > 0:53:06behaviour. The proof hasn't emerged yet. I will be amazed if the proof
0:53:06 > 0:53:09doesn't emerge and they end up going.There could be a further
0:53:09 > 0:53:15reshuffle. This was done as a precision reshuffle so there didn't
0:53:15 > 0:53:18have to be a wide-ranging moving of the chairs. But in the end Theresa
0:53:18 > 0:53:23May have to do more. . She may well. There have already been some
0:53:23 > 0:53:28questions about, previous to this and previous the Westminster assault
0:53:28 > 0:53:33allegations which have come out whether there might be some movement
0:53:33 > 0:53:36there. I think what people have been saying in the background is the
0:53:36 > 0:53:40decision she's made today may encourage some other people who have
0:53:40 > 0:53:44allegations or who have, you know, things have been said about them, to
0:53:44 > 0:53:48come forward. Gavin Williamson has been moved from the Whip's Office
0:53:48 > 0:53:52into a Government department. That could shake things up and mean that
0:53:52 > 0:53:56Theresa May will have to make more big changes. Thank you to you both.
0:53:59 > 0:54:01In the grey world of politics, Boris Johnson brings
0:54:01 > 0:54:04a flash of colour - so his fans say.
0:54:04 > 0:54:06And in the serious world of international diplomacy,
0:54:06 > 0:54:10the Foreign Secretary brings humour.
0:54:10 > 0:54:14Tom Tugendhat claimed that his brand of humour is not translated on to
0:54:14 > 0:54:16global stage.
0:54:16 > 0:54:19Yesterday Mr Johnson was asked by an MP on Tom's committee
0:54:19 > 0:54:21about promoting English wine and was then challenged over jokes
0:54:21 > 0:54:25about Italian prosecco.
0:54:25 > 0:54:28I think, actually, telling jokes is often very effective way
0:54:28 > 0:54:31of getting the message across.
0:54:31 > 0:54:33I'll just say that in parenthesis.
0:54:33 > 0:54:38Sometimes, actually...
0:54:38 > 0:54:41Sometimes people greatly appreciate that you're are talking
0:54:41 > 0:54:44to them in that informal way whilst subtlety getting your point across.
0:54:44 > 0:54:49I think that's actually a bit condescending to think they don't
0:54:49 > 0:54:59get the point.
0:55:05 > 0:55:09Where does Boris Jonathan stand in your mind?Well, he's the current
0:55:09 > 0:55:15Foreign Secretary.How would you view him against the -- view him
0:55:15 > 0:55:21against the giants of the Foreign Office?He doesn't have
0:55:21 > 0:55:24responsibility Brexit, not for trade N that sense, the Foreign Office is
0:55:24 > 0:55:28doing a lot less than those Foreign Secretaries were doing.Is that a
0:55:28 > 0:55:33good thing?It is a reality because the focus on Brexit has to be so
0:55:33 > 0:55:41entire that a single minister has taken it on.How do you see him as
0:55:41 > 0:55:44defending joke telling as diplomacy? We have different perspectives on
0:55:44 > 0:55:49this. My views have been made clear. My views having spoken to people in
0:55:49 > 0:55:59Paris, Rome and other parts, who have received some elements of the
0:55:59 > 0:56:03humour than others. -- less than others. It is to influence and get a
0:56:03 > 0:56:10positive outcome. I am always cautious we should do so in the most
0:56:10 > 0:56:15a dishous way possible.Do you think he has stop the jokes? . It is not
0:56:15 > 0:56:18for me to tell the Foreign Secretary how to conduct his foreign policy.
0:56:18 > 0:56:23It is for me to advice on areas I think it could be improved. You have
0:56:23 > 0:56:29said it is not working - it is not judicious. You are the chair, and
0:56:29 > 0:56:34you are to scrutinise the Foreign Secretary. Is he an effective
0:56:34 > 0:56:38ambassador in the middle of these negotiations?He's not doing the
0:56:38 > 0:56:43negotiations.You have spoken to people in the European capitals.
0:56:43 > 0:56:47That is why I welcome David Davis is doing the negotiations. He is a
0:56:47 > 0:56:55steady pair of hands and done well over the last year in making sure
0:56:55 > 0:57:05our relationship is good. Do you agree with Boris Jonathan
0:57:05 > 0:57:08that it's condescending to think our foreign allies cannot understand or
0:57:08 > 0:57:15take a joke.I read their papers and respond accordingly.Is it damaging
0:57:15 > 0:57:18Britain's standing in the world having Boris Jonathan behaving this
0:57:18 > 0:57:27way?He's a man with a great passion for the UK. A way of communicating
0:57:27 > 0:57:31which carries further than many other people. With that comes a
0:57:31 > 0:57:38responsibility to...Does it concern you that the Foreign Secretary
0:57:38 > 0:57:45reaches so readily for what people call insulting stereotypes?Well,
0:57:45 > 0:57:52those are not the terms I would use. That is the point I am making.Would
0:57:52 > 0:57:59you prefer him to be a host of have I got news for you?It's not for me.
0:57:59 > 0:58:04You must have a view. The great privilegeVy to serve my country
0:58:04 > 0:58:07over the last 15 ways, occasionally in diplomatic roles. I am merely
0:58:07 > 0:58:14saying how I would do it and expect Foreign Office officials to do it.
0:58:14 > 0:58:18Are you embarrassed by him.I am very pleased we have a Government
0:58:18 > 0:58:22with a lot of talent. In European capitals, do you think
0:58:22 > 0:58:29they consider him a a foon?I cannot -- bafoon? I can not tell you what
0:58:29 > 0:58:35people tell me. We have a range of ministers who can speak effectively
0:58:35 > 0:58:36to our European partners.
0:58:41 > 0:58:44That's all for today.
0:58:44 > 0:58:46Andrew will be on BBC One this evening for This
0:58:46 > 0:58:47Week, where he'll be
0:58:47 > 0:58:51joined by Michael Portillo, Harriet Harman, Shazia Mirza,
0:58:51 > 0:58:53And I'll be back at noon tomorrow.
0:58:53 > 0:58:57Bye-bye.