0:00:40 > 0:00:41Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44International Development Secretary, Priti Patel, admits that she did
0:00:44 > 0:00:46have secret meetings with the Israeli government and -
0:00:46 > 0:00:49despite what she said last week - the Foreign Office didn't
0:00:49 > 0:00:51know about it.
0:00:51 > 0:00:55Is she fit to be a cabinet minister?
0:00:55 > 0:00:57Boris Johnson speaks to the Iranian Foreign Minister
0:00:57 > 0:00:59after commenting on the case of a British Citizen who's
0:00:59 > 0:01:03been detained in Iran.
0:01:03 > 0:01:08Has his gaffe landed her another five years in jail?
0:01:08 > 0:01:10It's twelve months since the American public did what most
0:01:10 > 0:01:13pundits had thought impossible in electing a billionaire reality TV
0:01:13 > 0:01:16star, but has Donald Trump lived up to their low expectations
0:01:16 > 0:01:20of his Presidency?
0:01:24 > 0:01:29And could chimps make better politicians than human beings?
0:01:34 > 0:01:37All that coming up in the next hour.
0:01:37 > 0:01:40First today, let's look at the trouble piling up
0:01:40 > 0:01:42for Theresa May as threats to her Government emerge
0:01:42 > 0:01:46from all directions.
0:01:46 > 0:01:48The Prime Minister had to remind International Development Secretary
0:01:48 > 0:01:51Priti Patel of the "ministerial code" yesterday after it was
0:01:51 > 0:01:52revealed that Patel held secret meetings with Israeli
0:01:52 > 0:01:54officials, including Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu,
0:01:54 > 0:02:01without the PM or the Foreign Office's knowledge.
0:02:01 > 0:02:04Boris Johnson's latest verbal blunder has been used by the Iranian
0:02:04 > 0:02:05authorities to justify potentially doubling a British
0:02:05 > 0:02:11woman's prison sentence.
0:02:11 > 0:02:13And Theresa May's de facto deputy, Damian Green, has denied allegations
0:02:13 > 0:02:15he had "extreme" pornography on an office computer -
0:02:15 > 0:02:24the Cabinet Office is investigating.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27To, add to the PM's woes, things aren't much better in the Commons.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30The Speaker has set the Government a deadline of tonight to publish
0:02:30 > 0:02:32the Brexit impact assessments - a series of 58 official reports
0:02:32 > 0:02:34on the impact of Brexit on Britain's economy,
0:02:34 > 0:02:43which the Government had sought to keep secret.
0:02:43 > 0:02:45Amid mounting sexual harassment claims, Commons Leader,
0:02:45 > 0:02:47Andrea Leadsom is now under fire after being accused
0:02:47 > 0:02:55of failing to act on a rape allegation by a Tory aide.
0:02:55 > 0:02:57Last night the Prime Minister announced an independent grievance
0:02:57 > 0:02:58procedure for MPs' staff.
0:02:58 > 0:03:05If all parties agree that should be in place by next year.
0:03:05 > 0:03:08We're joined now by the journalists Isabel Oakeshott and Lucy
0:03:08 > 0:03:11Fisher of the Times.
0:03:11 > 0:03:17Welcome to both of you. Let's start with the International Development
0:03:17 > 0:03:22Secretary, Priti Patel. How much trouble is she in 1234in What she
0:03:22 > 0:03:30has done is serious. She has been carrying out a parallel foreign
0:03:30 > 0:03:33diplomacy mission, but she has been less than truthful with her account
0:03:33 > 0:03:38of what happened. She finally admitted that the Foreign Office
0:03:38 > 0:03:44didn't know before she went off on her holiday that she was going to
0:03:44 > 0:03:48have multiple meetings with Israeli officials. She was less than
0:03:48 > 0:03:52truthful about how many of those meetings took place and this had to
0:03:52 > 0:03:58be Whittled out of her. I think her position is tenuous at the moment.
0:03:58 > 0:04:03The Foreign Secretary has obviously been put in a difficult position by
0:04:03 > 0:04:08this. She is at the moment being saved by the fact that Theresa May
0:04:08 > 0:04:13has so many other crisis going on. Is it enough, having listened to
0:04:13 > 0:04:18what Isabelle has said, is it enough to remind the International
0:04:18 > 0:04:21Development Secretary of the ministerial code. You would have
0:04:21 > 0:04:29thought that would have been blindingly obvious in terms of this,
0:04:29 > 0:04:36having 12 meetings that no one knew about. Should she resign or be
0:04:36 > 0:04:43sacked.There will be more pressure on her today. It is a an enormous
0:04:43 > 0:04:47humiliation for the Prime Minister. Because she met the Israeli Prime
0:04:47 > 0:04:51Minister last week and didn't know her minister has been conducting
0:04:51 > 0:04:54secret meetings with him. There are questions about the ministerial
0:04:54 > 0:04:59code, if it can't be shown, said to be the case that Priti Patel broke
0:04:59 > 0:05:08it by going abroad and having these meetings, but an MP Mark Garnier has
0:05:08 > 0:05:14been accused of breaking it over asking his Secretary to buy sex toys
0:05:14 > 0:05:19when he was a backbencher.At the moment she is still in post. Now the
0:05:19 > 0:05:25foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson and his comments he made, because he
0:05:25 > 0:05:31claims that humour is important in diplomacy, but this is serious,
0:05:31 > 0:05:38concerning a British citizen who is at the moment in jail in Iran,
0:05:38 > 0:05:47accused of spreading propaganda. Have impact have his comments made.
0:05:47 > 0:05:54It is a sense of humour failure on the part of voters that he had such
0:05:54 > 0:06:01a poor grasp of detail that he made comments that meant this poor woman
0:06:01 > 0:06:13who has been incarcerated in Iran on a flimsy basis, he said she had been
0:06:13 > 0:06:18training journalists. That is not what he said or her employers argued
0:06:18 > 0:06:25and now she could have her sentence doubled. It is a travesty she is in
0:06:25 > 0:06:30jail and I'm amazed there has not been more fuss about it. When you
0:06:30 > 0:06:35look at the details as I have, I thought it was incredible that the
0:06:35 > 0:06:39Government wasn't making more of a song and dance of it and now the
0:06:39 > 0:06:42Foreign Secretary has made her position worse.He is going to be
0:06:42 > 0:06:47standing up in Parliament in a few hours, Boris Johnson, and he has
0:06:47 > 0:06:53already said that he doesn't want his comments to a Commons committee
0:06:53 > 0:06:57to provide any basis for further legal action against Nazanin
0:06:57 > 0:07:01Zaghari-Ratcliffe. He accepts he could have been clearer when he made
0:07:01 > 0:07:05the comments about her teaching journalism in the Foreign Affairs
0:07:05 > 0:07:12Committee. Will that be enough?I don't think so. The woman's husband
0:07:12 > 0:07:17has made clear he should retract the comments. We know there are serve
0:07:17 > 0:07:24MPs who have stayed back -- Conservative MPs who have stayed
0:07:24 > 0:07:28back. So far people have been concerned that the case could turn
0:07:28 > 0:07:32into more of a political football and they don't want to put this
0:07:32 > 0:07:39woman on further risk. She is on hunger strike and suicidal and
0:07:39 > 0:07:43Boris's comments saying he could have been clearer, that is not good
0:07:43 > 0:07:49enough. What does it say about the state of Theresa May's Government.
0:07:49 > 0:07:55You asked if chimps could make better politicians, what a shower! I
0:07:55 > 0:07:59have never seen anything like what we are witnessing at the moment. We
0:07:59 > 0:08:03have multiple scandals going on, some more serious than others. But
0:08:03 > 0:08:08all in parallel at the same time as this government ought to be
0:08:08 > 0:08:12completely focussed on its main task, which is delivering Brexit,
0:08:12 > 0:08:18which is quite enough to be getting on with without these cock ups.Is
0:08:18 > 0:08:24it now impossible for Theresa May to sack leading members of her cabinet,
0:08:24 > 0:08:29because of the fragile situation that the Government finds itself n
0:08:29 > 0:08:32because it is a minority government and Michael Fallon resigned and
0:08:32 > 0:08:37stood down and one of her other allies is being investigated, that
0:08:37 > 0:08:42is the reason?I think that probably is the reason. If she can't sack
0:08:42 > 0:08:50Priti Patel and Boris Johnson, it is difficult to see in what other
0:08:50 > 0:08:55position, whales it would take for her to move. As one of her key
0:08:55 > 0:09:00lieutenants, Michael Fallon, quitting the cabinet, Damian Green
0:09:00 > 0:09:06being investigated, I think next on the sleaze allegations there will be
0:09:06 > 0:09:11questions for Gavin Williamson about what he knew when he was Chief Whip.
0:09:11 > 0:09:17And finally on that, yesterday's announcement of an independent
0:09:17 > 0:09:21grievance procedure for staff, will that be sufficient to deal with this
0:09:21 > 0:09:26behaviour?I think it is enough for now. It is difficult to regular this
0:09:26 > 0:09:29and many of the allegations we have seen haven't concerned the
0:09:29 > 0:09:34relationship between MPs and their staff, they have been about MPs
0:09:34 > 0:09:38interance with journalists and it is a good start and we have to see how
0:09:38 > 0:09:43it evolves.Thank you both very much. Not much for you chew over for
0:09:43 > 0:09:46the next few days.
0:09:46 > 0:09:48Now, the Government has published its trade bill -
0:09:48 > 0:09:50it's one of nine pieces of new legislation in the pipeline
0:09:50 > 0:09:53to prepare the ground for Brexit.
0:09:53 > 0:09:55Ministers say it includes provisions for the UK to implement existing EU
0:09:55 > 0:09:58trade agreements and help ensure firms can still access
0:09:58 > 0:09:59£1.3 trillion worth of foreign government contracts.
0:09:59 > 0:10:09Let's speak to the International Trade Minister, Greg Hands.
0:10:09 > 0:10:17Welcome to the programme. The legislation is to allow the
0:10:17 > 0:10:22replication of EU trade deals into UK law. Can you guarantee those
0:10:22 > 0:10:28countries would agree to trade with the UK on the same terms as the EU.
0:10:28 > 0:10:34We are talking about two things. First the existing EU free trade
0:10:34 > 0:10:40agreements, that the UK is seeking to transition to become UK free
0:10:40 > 0:10:46trade agreements and a debate about what future UK free trade agreements
0:10:46 > 0:10:52may look like. With the first set, what we have done is we have spoken
0:10:52 > 0:10:58with all the leading counter parties of those agreements, they're keep
0:10:58 > 0:11:03for us to do this and make sure there is continuity for businesses
0:11:03 > 0:11:08in the UK and those key trading partners. There is others there,
0:11:08 > 0:11:11important trading partners. It is about ensuring continuity for
0:11:11 > 0:11:17business.I understand that. Which is why we have set it out. But can
0:11:17 > 0:11:23you guarantee it. When Liam Fox appeared before the committee, the
0:11:23 > 0:11:30select committee, he said he has hadn't received any indication that
0:11:30 > 0:11:34the country want to change the agreement, but he said we haven't
0:11:34 > 0:11:40got an agreement. So you can't guarantee it.We have spoken with
0:11:40 > 0:11:46all the counter parties. All of them are keen to do this.Being keen...
0:11:46 > 0:11:50Isn't guaranteeing.It is in our interests and their interest to do
0:11:50 > 0:11:56this process. I'm travelling and meeting these different countries,
0:11:56 > 0:12:00Liam Fox is, Mark Price did, meeting the countries, making sure we have
0:12:00 > 0:12:05that capability.You can't negotiate these deals and sign up to them
0:12:05 > 0:12:12until after the UK leaves the EU? These are deals the UK are already
0:12:12 > 0:12:19party to, it is about transitions them from EU deals to UK deals and
0:12:19 > 0:12:26the power that is in the trade bill. The Commons Secretary said
0:12:26 > 0:12:35continuing passporting of financial services and GM standards and
0:12:35 > 0:12:38chlorine-washed chicks could be problems. Will the Government give
0:12:38 > 0:12:44way on these?He said the US and UK trade deal is important. But nothing
0:12:44 > 0:12:51in any free trade agreement preventing any country from having
0:12:51 > 0:12:55the right to regulate the right to make provisions in its own domestic
0:12:55 > 0:12:59market as would affect all of those things, financial services,
0:12:59 > 0:13:06agricultural goods and so on. The UK has the best standards on financial
0:13:06 > 0:13:10service and animal welfare and some of the best standards on food
0:13:10 > 0:13:16safety. The UK, those standards won't be weakened by any agreements.
0:13:16 > 0:13:22Now issues in the cabinet, Boris Johnson, the Foreign Secretary,
0:13:22 > 0:13:27accepts he could have been clearer when he told the Foreign Affairs
0:13:27 > 0:13:30Committee that the British woman, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, had been
0:13:30 > 0:13:35training journalists in Iran at the time of her arrest. Those comments
0:13:35 > 0:13:41may risk her sentence being doubled from five to ten years. Does he need
0:13:41 > 0:13:47to come to Parliament, stand up and say he made a mistake and apologise?
0:13:47 > 0:13:50The most important thing is to get Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe released.
0:13:50 > 0:13:56This won't help.Well actually, Boris Johnson has been on the phone
0:13:56 > 0:14:00to hissist Iranian counter part, talk about that. That is...Because
0:14:00 > 0:14:04of the comments that could risk her staying in jail longer.He is trying
0:14:04 > 0:14:09to make sure that she is released. That is the most important thing for
0:14:09 > 0:14:16the UK Government do.No one disputes that, should he apologise
0:14:16 > 0:14:21and retract the comments.Boris will appear at the House of Commons and
0:14:21 > 0:14:27we will have to see what he will say.Would you like him to say?I
0:14:27 > 0:14:30would like him to say things about the progress in getting Nazanin
0:14:30 > 0:14:33Zaghari-Ratcliffe released. That is the most important thing is in this
0:14:33 > 0:14:39case.
0:14:39 > 0:14:43The most helpful thing and I will say it again is to engage with the
0:14:43 > 0:14:48Arabian authorities, in this case Boris Johnson with uranium Foreign
0:14:48 > 0:14:52Minister am talking about how we're going to get Mrs Ratcliffe released.
0:14:52 > 0:14:54That's the most important thing. Thank you.
0:14:54 > 0:14:58We're joined now for the rest of the programme by the former Work
0:14:58 > 0:15:00and Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan Smith.
0:15:00 > 0:15:01Welcome to the programme.
0:15:01 > 0:15:02Welcome to the programme.
0:15:02 > 0:15:04Also here is the Shadow International Trade Secretary,
0:15:04 > 0:15:05Barry Gardiner.
0:15:05 > 0:15:10Welcome to you two. We are going to talk about trade and then I will
0:15:10 > 0:15:16talk to about some of the issues in the let's talk about the trade deal
0:15:16 > 0:15:20I talked about at the beginning. Doesn't this bill do what you want?
0:15:20 > 0:15:23You get to keep the trade deals through EU membership whilst also
0:15:23 > 0:15:30leaving the EU?Obviously, if we are going to be leaving the EU, which we
0:15:30 > 0:15:35are, and taking back control of our trade policy, we need to ensure that
0:15:35 > 0:15:39Parliament has the capacity to properly scrutinise any trade
0:15:39 > 0:15:44agreements that we enter into. Now, our concerns about this bill are
0:15:44 > 0:15:51around that scrutiny. I have said that we will judge the bill on the
0:15:51 > 0:15:55basis of whether it insists upon a full parliamentary debate and vote
0:15:55 > 0:16:02on the terms of any trade agreement, whether there is a mandate set by
0:16:02 > 0:16:08Parliament for those negotiations, whether there is full transparency
0:16:08 > 0:16:14about the text of the negotiations and of the agreement. This is a
0:16:14 > 0:16:19Government which has a reputation, not just a reputation but actually
0:16:19 > 0:16:23has actively tried to ensure that Parliament does not have access and
0:16:23 > 0:16:27does not have full time is barren sea to trade negotiations.Would you
0:16:27 > 0:16:30have a problem with any of that, Iain Duncan Smith?The Government
0:16:30 > 0:16:36are very happy for Parliament to have a vote but first of all that
0:16:36 > 0:16:39love an arrangement with EU to bring before Parliament to say this is
0:16:39 > 0:16:44what we have agreed, them and us. The EU also asked to go through a
0:16:44 > 0:16:49process of Parliament and about 27 other parliaments, so we got to get
0:16:49 > 0:16:54this done in time. What we can't have, however, and I understand the
0:16:54 > 0:16:58opposition want to be in the negotiations as well, but...Some of
0:16:58 > 0:17:05your own side as well.Agreed, but you can't have 600 MPs basically at
0:17:05 > 0:17:08the negotiation table. The Government has to get the best
0:17:08 > 0:17:11arrangement possible, come back to the House of Commons, and Parliament
0:17:11 > 0:17:15can say whether they agree it's a good deal or not. If they don't, you
0:17:15 > 0:17:18know, the EU could turn around and say that's all that's on the table,
0:17:18 > 0:17:23I'm afraid.He has misunderstood what the trade bill is doing. The
0:17:23 > 0:17:29trade bill is not simply about the negotiations with the EU, about...I
0:17:29 > 0:17:36was only talking about that.The trade bill which is what Joel asked
0:17:36 > 0:17:41about is about how Parliament should be scrutinised going forward with
0:17:41 > 0:17:45all its trade and investment agreements. There we have some
0:17:45 > 0:17:48really significant concerns about the level of consultation, the level
0:17:48 > 0:17:52of mandate and the scrutiny available to Parliament. At the
0:17:52 > 0:18:00moment, we have an EU scrutiny committee which Ian, as someone who
0:18:00 > 0:18:03has previously championed Parliamentary democracy, will want
0:18:03 > 0:18:07to see that scrutiny committee powers transferred to a new
0:18:07 > 0:18:11committee to oversee all international trade agreements.Are
0:18:11 > 0:18:16you happy for each and every trade deal the UK does once it has left
0:18:16 > 0:18:20the EU, that that should be scrutinised by Parliament?
0:18:20 > 0:18:23Absolutely right. That's what the role of Parliament is and the
0:18:23 > 0:18:26structures are there already for it to be done. I don't think there has
0:18:26 > 0:18:30to be a separate group. Is already a select committee which looks at
0:18:30 > 0:18:34trade and I think the key thing is to make sure that what happens is
0:18:34 > 0:18:40Parliament gets a chance to look in detail what is happening... Each
0:18:40 > 0:18:48trade deal? Yes Parliament to have a say.I'm delighted he agrees. The
0:18:48 > 0:18:52problem is in the trade policy White Paper the Government has set out, if
0:18:52 > 0:18:56you look at the bottom of page 28 on that, it says we want to make
0:18:56 > 0:19:00provision for a legislative framework to enable future trade
0:19:00 > 0:19:04agreements to move quickly from signing to implementation and
0:19:04 > 0:19:09ratification, which would appear to want to bypass Parliament, as the
0:19:09 > 0:19:13Government did with the agreement where I had to assist for ten months
0:19:13 > 0:19:18before we got a special secret room set up for MPs to look at the text.
0:19:18 > 0:19:25You are being a bit overly harsh on this. I understand why.They did
0:19:25 > 0:19:30have to go to court to get Article 50 seen.This issue is about what
0:19:30 > 0:19:33the Government wants. Jamaica trade arrangement, you want to get that
0:19:33 > 0:19:37ratified as speedily as possible but the question is, how you get it done
0:19:37 > 0:19:43is important that you make a trade agreement. The former Parliament
0:19:43 > 0:19:48should be, the certain assumption they also need to go about it as
0:19:48 > 0:19:51quickly as possible. Not deliberately dragged their feet.
0:19:51 > 0:19:54That's the point of the whole bill, which makes provision for that and
0:19:54 > 0:19:57you should not over read the idea about speed. It's not a bad thing
0:19:57 > 0:20:04sometimes.Should those 58 assessments on the effects of Brexit
0:20:04 > 0:20:08on British industry be released today?I've never had a problem with
0:20:08 > 0:20:12the details of this being released at all because my general view is
0:20:12 > 0:20:15almost everything in there is already in the public domain.You
0:20:15 > 0:20:19can look forward to those later on? They have to share with a select
0:20:19 > 0:20:26committee.Jo, that would be wonderful but the Government has
0:20:26 > 0:20:28refused to allow those impact assessments on the different
0:20:28 > 0:20:35sectors, how they will be affected by Brexit, four months. We had to
0:20:35 > 0:20:39introduce a motion to Parliament last Wednesday which had an arcane
0:20:39 > 0:20:44parliamentary procedure in it to force the Government to reveal their
0:20:44 > 0:20:48hand. David Davis should release those today. He should have done it.
0:20:48 > 0:20:55Months ago.The way to do it is to work out how the select committee
0:20:55 > 0:20:59can share that information.The idea is to go to Hilary Benn for this.
0:20:59 > 0:21:01Now let's move onto the other story we've been talking
0:21:01 > 0:21:03about this morning - that's the rebuke for
0:21:03 > 0:21:05International Development Secretary, Priti Patel, over meetings
0:21:05 > 0:21:06with the Israeli government, including Prime Minister,
0:21:06 > 0:21:10Benjamin Nethanyahu, whilst on holiday in the summer.
0:21:10 > 0:21:13Last night her department was forced to issue a clarification
0:21:13 > 0:21:14of comments she made last week.
0:21:14 > 0:21:16On Friday 3rd November, Priti Patel was quoted
0:21:16 > 0:21:21in the Guardian newspaper as follows:
0:21:28 > 0:21:31However, in yesterday's statement, the department conceeded:
0:21:50 > 0:21:53In the Guardian article, Ms Patel went on to say:
0:22:08 > 0:22:11But the statement from the department said:
0:22:40 > 0:22:44Should she still be a Secretary of State and a member of the British
0:22:44 > 0:22:48Government, Iain Duncan Smith?Yes, but the lesson to learn here is that
0:22:48 > 0:22:51if she has gone out and had these other meetings, of course, the
0:22:51 > 0:22:54Foreign Office should have known about them. It would have been
0:22:54 > 0:22:58useful for her to be accompanied on them but the reality now is, instead
0:22:58 > 0:23:02of dealing with one little bit of it, a clearer statement should be
0:23:02 > 0:23:06made at the time but I don't think, let's get this in perspective, this
0:23:06 > 0:23:11is a friendly nation. We are not meeting in secret over something.
0:23:11 > 0:23:18What is the point of the ministerial code?What do you mean?It stays
0:23:18 > 0:23:22there should not be a conflict of interest between business and
0:23:22 > 0:23:25pleasure in this regard, that you have to inform the relevant
0:23:25 > 0:23:28authorities and any meetings with a foreign power, Israel falling into
0:23:28 > 0:23:33that category, and the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary
0:23:33 > 0:23:36didn't know that the International Development Secretary was going to
0:23:36 > 0:23:40meet the Prime Minister of Israel and held a series of meetings to
0:23:40 > 0:23:44which she has then had to clarify. Did she lie when she put out her
0:23:44 > 0:23:50first statement?No, she's had these meetings, I assume not meetings
0:23:50 > 0:23:53originally scheduled and, having had these meetings, she is then
0:23:53 > 0:23:59informing Boris Johnson what happened.Is that in breach of the
0:23:59 > 0:24:06ministerial code?The code should be interpreted as informing them in
0:24:06 > 0:24:13advance but that's the whole point of having yourself accompanied, but
0:24:13 > 0:24:18they may not been planned as and came later on. Most importantly,
0:24:18 > 0:24:21though, the content of those meetings is passed back to the
0:24:21 > 0:24:25Foreign Office and the Government so they are clear and aware of what was
0:24:25 > 0:24:31talked about.But they were not, and this is about breaching important
0:24:31 > 0:24:35protocol. She said Boris knew about the visit. The Foreign Office did
0:24:35 > 0:24:40know about this, Boris knew about the trip. Why has she had to clarify
0:24:40 > 0:24:46that?Clearly he did not know in advance.But she said he did. Has
0:24:46 > 0:24:52she lied?I don't know what was in her mind when she said it. As I
0:24:52 > 0:24:55understand it, he was made aware of it and what actually took place in
0:24:55 > 0:25:02those meetings but not in advance. Are you satisfied with that?This
0:25:02 > 0:25:05Government has a problem with transparency and clarity. It is
0:25:05 > 0:25:10clear she should have inform the Foreign Secretary before she went
0:25:10 > 0:25:14but you did not. There would appear to be a breach of the ministerial
0:25:14 > 0:25:18code and she has now misled the Prime Minister and the Foreign
0:25:18 > 0:25:24Secretary and the public. Of course this must now be investigated. Iain
0:25:24 > 0:25:28Duncan Smith says maybe they were arranged while she was out there,
0:25:28 > 0:25:34these visits, but the idea the Prime Minister of any country just here to
0:25:34 > 0:25:37happen to be visiting on holiday on some beach somewhere and says why
0:25:37 > 0:25:41not pop along frock off the? You really do need to take this
0:25:41 > 0:25:50seriously -- why not pop in for a copy? Don't pretend to the public
0:25:50 > 0:25:53that this is anything other than a serious breach.The Cabinet
0:25:53 > 0:25:57Secretary will have looked at this and decided as a result of the Prime
0:25:57 > 0:26:00Minister's request as to whether or not there has been a breach and
0:26:00 > 0:26:04whether or not it create any particular...The Cabinet Secretary
0:26:04 > 0:26:08needs to be asked to do that by the Prime Minister. Excuse me. Let me
0:26:08 > 0:26:18finish.I did not interrupt you.Let Ian respond.You are playing silly
0:26:18 > 0:26:23games. What is ready important is what was discussed at those meetings
0:26:23 > 0:26:26and that information is passed to the Government and the Government
0:26:26 > 0:26:30therefore knows any obligations that were made if they were official. The
0:26:30 > 0:26:34answer is the Government knows about this. It quite clear therefore, if
0:26:34 > 0:26:40she had not informed them before, that was incorrect. It's been
0:26:40 > 0:26:43admitted and accepted and the Prime Minister has reprimanded therefore
0:26:43 > 0:26:50that.You feel that is enough?Yes, because it's not a deliberate
0:26:50 > 0:26:54attempt to subvert Government policy.Deliberately misusing the
0:26:54 > 0:27:00code. We don't know yet, do we? That's why we need an investigation.
0:27:00 > 0:27:05You think Priti Patel is not done enough to result in their
0:27:05 > 0:27:08resignation or her sacking by the Prime Minister although an
0:27:08 > 0:27:11investigation will be taking place into whether she has bridged the
0:27:11 > 0:27:16ministerial code. Let's talk about Boris Johnson. Do you think his
0:27:16 > 0:27:19behaviour as Foreign Secretary is acceptable when he makes mistakes
0:27:19 > 0:27:25over the future of a British citizen who was imprisoned in Iran by saying
0:27:25 > 0:27:29she was out there doing something she was not?It's a complete error
0:27:29 > 0:27:34as I understand it. I don't know why he would've said that. I wasn't at
0:27:34 > 0:27:39the meeting, and I've only read the transcript of it. My genuine sense
0:27:39 > 0:27:43is he recognises now that that was an error of judgment.He hasn't said
0:27:43 > 0:27:47that. He said he would clarify his comments and has not said it was a
0:27:47 > 0:27:51mistake.He's been clear he did not intend to say what he said. I don't
0:27:51 > 0:27:58know why you said it. Sometimes briefings you get, which are
0:27:58 > 0:28:04confused etc, may be he got confused.Is he up to the job if he
0:28:04 > 0:28:08can make that sort of error when it comes to the future of a British
0:28:08 > 0:28:14citizen? This is a woman in jail who went to visit her family, has been
0:28:14 > 0:28:18imprisoned by the rainy authorities, the story has had north a lot of
0:28:18 > 0:28:21coverage, it's not as if Boris Johnson wouldn't have known about
0:28:21 > 0:28:24the detail. Should he have been across the detail, otherwise he may
0:28:24 > 0:28:29made comments which could result in her imprisonment being doubled to
0:28:29 > 0:28:34ten years -- it rainier in?There's never excuse not getting something
0:28:34 > 0:28:35right. -- Iranians are.
0:28:38 > 0:28:42His wife is being held and we want are released fourth of the most
0:28:42 > 0:28:46important feature of this is the Government puts its resources behind
0:28:46 > 0:28:50getting her released and not having a sentence increased.You sell
0:28:50 > 0:28:54yourself, it's an error, these things have not helped the situation
0:28:54 > 0:28:58of this woman. Can he as Foreign Secretary?Yes, new speaking
0:28:58 > 0:29:03directly to the Iranian counterparts, and he wants to make
0:29:03 > 0:29:07it clear to them that the UK Government believes that she was out
0:29:07 > 0:29:12of their not for any particular purpose other than a holiday to see
0:29:12 > 0:29:15family and that is why she should be released right now. They have no
0:29:15 > 0:29:20right to hold her.Your Brexiteer colleagues in the Cabinet seem to be
0:29:20 > 0:29:26struggling with their positions.No more than anybody else. I do think
0:29:26 > 0:29:30Brexit is anything to do with it, only the fact that when Boris
0:29:30 > 0:29:35Johnson made a statement about this, he is very clear that this was not a
0:29:35 > 0:29:40correct statement and he has tried to get the Iranian 's, which he has
0:29:40 > 0:29:44done, to explain that is not what the Government's position is and he
0:29:44 > 0:29:47has explained we want her released. The most important thing is to get
0:29:47 > 0:29:55released at once.Barry Gardner?UK Foreign Secretary should have the
0:29:55 > 0:29:59confidence and competence and capacity to way their remarks
0:29:59 > 0:30:06carefully judiciously. Boris Johnson clearly does not. He should publicly
0:30:06 > 0:30:11retract the remarks. He should apologise for them. And I know very
0:30:11 > 0:30:13well, as does Ian, what Lord Carrington would've done in such
0:30:13 > 0:30:19circumstances. He should resign.
0:30:19 > 0:30:26Should he resign?Yes.Labour says he should resign. What do you say.
0:30:26 > 0:30:33Labour call for even to resign. They want to cause mayhem.Do you accept
0:30:33 > 0:30:37Boris Johnson has form for this. Is this the man you want running our
0:30:37 > 0:30:41foreign policy?There is a lot of good things that Boris is doing and
0:30:41 > 0:30:46a lot of good stuff about going around the world getting a higher
0:30:46 > 0:30:53profile for the UK and presenting our case for leaving the EU. A lot
0:30:53 > 0:30:57of Foreign Office officials say it puts a new dimension into the job.
0:30:57 > 0:31:01It is not as though in the last Labour governments and Foreign
0:31:01 > 0:31:04Secretaries and others haven't made a mistake or said something they
0:31:04 > 0:31:09shouldn't.They retract it at the dispatch box. He should do the same.
0:31:09 > 0:31:14You called for him to resign regardless of what he does. You need
0:31:14 > 0:31:19to get your act together. If you constantly call for someone to
0:31:19 > 0:31:25resign every time, its you who loses credibility, because you play games
0:31:25 > 0:31:29over this lady's life. Her life is very important and getting her back
0:31:29 > 0:31:33is really important. That is the focus of the Foreign Office and of
0:31:33 > 0:31:38the Foreign Secretary. But calling for him to resign just compounds the
0:31:38 > 0:31:44issue in the eyes of Iranians. That is a big mistake.The best way to
0:31:44 > 0:31:48help Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe is for him to retract these remarks
0:31:48 > 0:31:56publicly. A private telephone conversation to an Iranian minister,
0:31:56 > 0:32:00this is a judicial process. A private telephone conversation
0:32:00 > 0:32:04cannot overturn that. He must correct the record...He will
0:32:04 > 0:32:11stand... Hang on he will stand up in Parliament in the next hour or so.
0:32:11 > 0:32:15Thank you.
0:32:15 > 0:32:17Now it's time for our daily quiz.
0:32:17 > 0:32:20It turns out our guest of the day has a rather unusual collection.
0:32:20 > 0:32:22So our question for today is, what is it?
0:32:22 > 0:32:22Is it...
0:32:26 > 0:32:28Stamps.
0:32:28 > 0:32:28Wallpaper.
0:32:28 > 0:32:30Comics.
0:32:30 > 0:32:31Or Fossils
0:32:31 > 0:32:34At the end of the show Iain will give us the correct answer.
0:32:34 > 0:32:37Now, beyond Boris Johnson's current woes, his leadership
0:32:37 > 0:32:39of the Foreign Office has come under fire, including from
0:32:39 > 0:32:43many in his own party.
0:32:43 > 0:32:46The flamboyant Foreign Secretary's tenure comes as Britain's foreign
0:32:46 > 0:32:48policy is under increased scrutiny as Brexit approaches
0:32:48 > 0:32:50and he and Prime Minister try to define Britain's place
0:32:50 > 0:32:56in the world outside the European Union.
0:32:56 > 0:33:01This film contains some flash photography.This is called
0:33:01 > 0:33:11diplomacy.It is going well. It is going well, John, thank you. I would
0:33:11 > 0:33:17like to see demonstrations outside the Russian Embassy against... Where
0:33:17 > 0:33:29it the stop Stop the War coalition at the moment? Where are they? The
0:33:29 > 0:33:33relationship based on family, kinship and common interests. In a
0:33:33 > 0:33:36further sign of the importance of that relationship I have been able
0:33:36 > 0:33:44to convey the Queen's hope that President Trump and the first lady
0:33:44 > 0:33:57will visit the UK and the president has accepted that invitation.
0:33:59 > 0:34:03Good diplomacy involves talking to all sorts of people...Sounds like a
0:34:03 > 0:34:11yes.I'm not going to...Are you aware?
0:34:13 > 0:34:22The defining purpose of the UN charter is to maintain peace and
0:34:22 > 0:34:26security and develop friendly relationships among nations and
0:34:26 > 0:34:37maintain co-operation in solving problems.
0:34:37 > 0:34:40And we're joined now by the man who was the most senior civil
0:34:40 > 0:34:42servant in the Foreign Office, Simon Fraser.
0:34:42 > 0:34:44He's now with the business advisors, Flint Global and he's making
0:34:44 > 0:34:48a speech today about Britain's place in the world after Brexit.
0:34:48 > 0:34:53Welcome to the programme. Do you think Britain's foreign influence is
0:34:53 > 0:34:58already diminished due to Brexit? Yes, I think Brexit in the
0:34:58 > 0:35:02short-term has created uncertainty and has weakened our voice and there
0:35:02 > 0:35:08are a number of examples. But the real issue is that in the long-term
0:35:08 > 0:35:12Brexit will affect I think our structural position in the world and
0:35:12 > 0:35:17I don't think we are thinking seriously enough about that, our
0:35:17 > 0:35:22relationships with Europe, with the United States, how we are going to
0:35:22 > 0:35:26operate in international organisations.How worried are you?
0:35:26 > 0:35:30I'm worried in the sense that I think the Government should focus on
0:35:30 > 0:35:35it and it is important that we have sort of well thought through,
0:35:35 > 0:35:42realistic and not simplistic approaches.Do you agree Britain's
0:35:42 > 0:35:49position in the world has already been diminished? ?No, I'm more
0:35:49 > 0:35:54optimistic about this. Some people can be pessimistic. I think it opens
0:35:54 > 0:35:59us up to be able to make arrangements and hold much closer
0:35:59 > 0:36:03ties with various other important count rips around the world. We will
0:36:03 > 0:36:09be able to hold closer ties with Japan and some of our common wealth
0:36:09 > 0:36:14nations who welt we had left them behind. What I do agree is, it is
0:36:14 > 0:36:18important to review carefully who we believe are our allies and friends
0:36:18 > 0:36:21around the world and make it very clear that we will establish strong
0:36:21 > 0:36:26links with those and with the European Union too. It is not about
0:36:26 > 0:36:31leaving Europe. It is just leaving the EU.You say in your speech it is
0:36:31 > 0:36:35of importance that we remain committed to a co-operation of a
0:36:35 > 0:36:43world. Why can't we do that outside the EU?Of course we can. I'm not
0:36:43 > 0:36:48pessimistic, I'm realistic and I am worried that people are being
0:36:48 > 0:36:52simplistic. The important relationships are with our fellow
0:36:52 > 0:36:56western democracies in Europe and United States and Japan and it is
0:36:56 > 0:37:02important we don't weaken those ties. Particularly given everything
0:37:02 > 0:37:07else gone on such as the power of China. We need to understand where
0:37:07 > 0:37:13our core relationships lie.You say Britain has been poorly led and
0:37:13 > 0:37:19those who argued for departure offered naive visions of the future.
0:37:19 > 0:37:24That will be you. Are you simplistic.No, I think the UK's
0:37:24 > 0:37:27role has been diminished over the years as a result of our membership
0:37:27 > 0:37:32of the EU. I think that too often much of the things we wanted to
0:37:32 > 0:37:39do...Like what?We would have taken a harder line on Russia and the EU
0:37:39 > 0:37:45has wanted to do.The question is what would we have achieved.We may
0:37:45 > 0:37:51debate that, but we didn't pursue what was in our interest.We
0:37:51 > 0:37:57mobilised the whole of the EU.The result is Russia had a conversation
0:37:57 > 0:38:01with Germany and France, because they would be easier on him. My
0:38:01 > 0:38:08sense of this is we take to take this in a different view. We have
0:38:08 > 0:38:12been too Euro-centric and not interested in other emerging
0:38:12 > 0:38:16markets. I think our interests now lie in establishing very strong
0:38:16 > 0:38:21links with the developing nations, particularly in the far east and
0:38:21 > 0:38:24among the common wealth where, the real markets lie and our influence
0:38:24 > 0:38:36is lost.But the markets, if I may, the amount to 10% of our trade. The
0:38:36 > 0:38:41EU and the country they have FTAs are about 60% of our trade. We have
0:38:41 > 0:38:46to keep the balance. And the other point is about foreign policy. Those
0:38:46 > 0:38:49are important relationships, but they don't share our values and
0:38:49 > 0:38:52approach to the world in the way the countries I have mentioned do. I
0:38:52 > 0:38:57don't know how keen you are on socialism with Chinese
0:38:57 > 0:39:03characteristics. My commitment to it has its limits.In terms of looking
0:39:03 > 0:39:09ahead, do you think there is a case of staying in the EU.That has been
0:39:09 > 0:39:15my view and I supported Remain. I accepted the result of referendum,
0:39:15 > 0:39:18we should pursue the best outcome F the British people were to change
0:39:18 > 0:39:28its mind, that is a matter for the people. Now taking Russia and Syria,
0:39:28 > 0:39:32what do you think we did being part of EU that was better than if we had
0:39:32 > 0:39:36been on our own? The point is and I fully accept Iain Duncan Smith's
0:39:36 > 0:39:41points that if you're free you can say what you want and have a clear
0:39:41 > 0:39:44position and have more freedom. But the question is what effect can you
0:39:44 > 0:39:49have in the world? When we adopt sanctions on Syria or Russia, with
0:39:49 > 0:39:53the EU, we are mobilising the biggest market in the world. And
0:39:53 > 0:39:58when we align that with the United States we have a tremendous impact.
0:39:58 > 0:40:06The UK alone would be less able to leverage either of those powers.Do
0:40:06 > 0:40:11you accept that?No, because that assumes that pause we are leaving
0:40:11 > 0:40:15the EU all of a sudden our relationships with them in terms of
0:40:15 > 0:40:22our interests.But it is part of a bloc.The answer is that we are part
0:40:22 > 0:40:26of that process. But we are not dictated to by it. I think the same
0:40:26 > 0:40:30goes with the United States. I think that our involve Westminster the
0:40:30 > 0:40:36United States could have been stronger, I think when we look at
0:40:36 > 0:40:43the Russia situation, rush is Russia is a threat and it is a growing
0:40:43 > 0:40:48threat and then it is emboldened in Syria and defying what was meant to
0:40:48 > 0:40:52be a European and American policy, we have been made to look foolish as
0:40:52 > 0:40:57a collective group. I don't hold a massive amount of strength of view
0:40:57 > 0:41:02that somehow being part of the EU made us stronger in foreign policy.
0:41:02 > 0:41:06I think the key thing is for us to get them in the right direction, but
0:41:06 > 0:41:12I think we can do better.We will be less able to do that if we're not in
0:41:12 > 0:41:17the meetings. The idea we should have permanent observer status in
0:41:17 > 0:41:23the meetings of EU, won't give us the ability to influence. We be more
0:41:23 > 0:41:29dictated to.We will be in a position to say no.How do you feel
0:41:29 > 0:41:37as head of for office, if you were if the International Development
0:41:37 > 0:41:41Secretary has free lanced in Israeli, including a meeting with
0:41:41 > 0:41:47Prime Minister without telling you. I wouldn't be happy. I think it is
0:41:47 > 0:41:53important there is coherence and a joined up approach, particularly
0:41:53 > 0:41:56with countries like Israel. I share the view that this was not the
0:41:56 > 0:42:01correct way toff going about it.How big a breach is it?I'm not an
0:42:01 > 0:42:09expert on the ministerial code. From my perspective I think is not a good
0:42:09 > 0:42:12way of conducting diplomacy.And with the case of Boris Johnson and
0:42:12 > 0:42:14the case of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, do you think it
0:42:14 > 0:42:19is enough for him to say he has clarified his comments?I think what
0:42:19 > 0:42:24this incident shows is the importance in diplomacy of prosigs
0:42:24 > 0:42:28and attention -- precision and attention to detail. That is true
0:42:28 > 0:42:37with a country like Iran, where every word is scrutiny ised and
0:42:37 > 0:42:41individuals can be caught up. It is a shame that this lapse happened. It
0:42:41 > 0:42:46needs to be clarified and effort put into rectifying any consequences.
0:42:46 > 0:42:54Thank you.
0:42:54 > 0:42:56Tomorrow is the first anniversary of Donald Trump's election
0:42:56 > 0:42:59as President of the United States and it's been quite a year for both
0:42:59 > 0:43:01America's friends and enemies alike.
0:43:01 > 0:43:04Mr Trump is currently on a tour of Asia and is in Seoul
0:43:04 > 0:43:06in South Korea visiting his counterpart Moon Jae-in.
0:43:06 > 0:43:08North Korea's nuclear programme is understandably top of the list
0:43:08 > 0:43:11of their discussions, and this is what the President had
0:43:11 > 0:43:13to say a few hours ago.
0:43:13 > 0:43:19I believe it makes sense for North Korea to do the right
0:43:19 > 0:43:24thing, not only for North Korea but for humanity all over the world,
0:43:24 > 0:43:29so there is lots of reason, a lot of good reason behind it.
0:43:29 > 0:43:32With that, yes, I think we're making a lot of progress.
0:43:32 > 0:43:33I think we're showing great strength.
0:43:33 > 0:43:35I think they understand we have unparalleled strength.
0:43:35 > 0:43:38There has never been strength like it.
0:43:38 > 0:43:41You know, we sent three of the largest aircraft
0:43:41 > 0:43:44carriers in the world and they are right now positioned.
0:43:44 > 0:43:48We have a nuclear submarine also positioned.
0:43:48 > 0:43:54We have many things happening that we hope, we hope,
0:43:54 > 0:43:56in fact I go a step further, we hope to God,
0:43:56 > 0:43:59we never have to use.
0:43:59 > 0:44:04With that being said, I really believe that it makes sense
0:44:04 > 0:44:11for North Korea to come to the table and to make a deal that's good
0:44:11 > 0:44:15for the people of North Korea and the people of the world.
0:44:15 > 0:44:18We're joined now by James Fallows, the London Bureau Chief
0:44:18 > 0:44:24of the Atlantic magazine.
0:44:24 > 0:44:28How has Donald Trump done in his first year? He's done pretty much
0:44:28 > 0:44:31what you'd expect from this campaign which is he's been out of scale of
0:44:31 > 0:44:40any previous office. He's invented new things. The people who like him
0:44:40 > 0:44:45still like him, but in terms of support he is off the scale, lower
0:44:45 > 0:44:49approval ratings than anybody else. We always held politicians account
0:44:49 > 0:44:53what they stated in their manifestos. In that sense, you
0:44:53 > 0:44:59broadly think he has succeeded?I think he has been a logical
0:44:59 > 0:45:03extrapolation of the personality he was on the campaign platform. I
0:45:03 > 0:45:06distinguish that the programmes where every day there's a new policy
0:45:06 > 0:45:10position but the person he was at those big rallies is the person he
0:45:10 > 0:45:16is throughout the world.Which achievements would you pick out?
0:45:16 > 0:45:25That is a tough question.Any?The Republicans refused to confirm
0:45:25 > 0:45:29Barack Obama's nomination. That's the biggest thing.I don't think I
0:45:29 > 0:45:35can never remember such a big clear out of staff from the administration
0:45:35 > 0:45:40as we have seen under Donald Trump. I think most of the ambassadorships
0:45:40 > 0:45:45around the world are vacant. The assistant secretaries of State, the
0:45:45 > 0:45:48real action people to get things done, there's not even a nominee for
0:45:48 > 0:45:55them. It's not that Trump has had fewer people confirmed, he has
0:45:55 > 0:45:58nominated fewer people, so there has been a clearing out as they normally
0:45:58 > 0:46:05is but no refreshing with new Apple keys.In terms of the staff lost,
0:46:05 > 0:46:18the scandals, that has been quite a turnover. -- new applicants. How is
0:46:18 > 0:46:21the Republican party dealing with Donald Trump because that was so
0:46:21 > 0:46:24much talk at the beginning that they were going to go along with this and
0:46:24 > 0:46:29didn't have any choice, but as time had gone on, there was more shock
0:46:29 > 0:46:33from their site about some of the things he was doing. Is that really
0:46:33 > 0:46:42true?Yes it's hard to appreciate. I once worked for Jimmy Carter as his
0:46:42 > 0:46:45speech writer for two years ago. There's never been an experience
0:46:45 > 0:46:49when members of his own party will speak about him in such contemptuous
0:46:49 > 0:46:54and dismissive ways as long as you don't quote me, and as long as they
0:46:54 > 0:46:57still plan to run for office, so they are torn between the
0:46:57 > 0:47:02recognition they have the kind of person he is, but there is awareness
0:47:02 > 0:47:08of how we can mobilise against them. You won't be quoting them in future?
0:47:08 > 0:47:14No, when they decide not to run, suddenly they say this is a big
0:47:14 > 0:47:20problem but until then, not. Something close to your heart is
0:47:20 > 0:47:23Brexit. Of course, there's great hope there will be a trade deal and
0:47:23 > 0:47:28a trade deal done quickly, certainly on the Government's side. What is
0:47:28 > 0:47:36your view on that?I think it is remarkable how much difficulty
0:47:36 > 0:47:40Donald Trump has had getting any of his agenda done. The health care
0:47:40 > 0:47:43repeal for example, you didn't get through. The tax cuts probably won't
0:47:43 > 0:47:50go through. He requires positive action rather than blocking
0:47:50 > 0:47:53something Barack Obama did, the odds would be against him.It does not
0:47:53 > 0:48:01bode well, does it?I was over in Washington about April May, and I
0:48:01 > 0:48:07had meetings with a very large number of senators, including the
0:48:07 > 0:48:12Speaker of the House, and what I found from all of them was every one
0:48:12 > 0:48:17of them wanted to ensure that we moved swiftly to a trade arrangement
0:48:17 > 0:48:21and more than that there's been three or four pieces of legislation
0:48:21 > 0:48:25already gone through both houses paving the way for that, so it isn't
0:48:25 > 0:48:31actually down to him alone. The truth is, the mood is to do this and
0:48:31 > 0:48:35from Democrats as well, so the reality is, whether or not Mr Trump
0:48:35 > 0:48:42is for or against it,... Some of the things you try to do have been his
0:48:42 > 0:48:46own pet project and he's not have the support around him.With Brexit,
0:48:46 > 0:48:55bloodied different?People want to get this through. The problem is
0:48:55 > 0:49:00there's a hundred things Congress should do and their minds are
0:49:00 > 0:49:05concentrated now on the tax bill and if they can have vote on this, can
0:49:05 > 0:49:13it ever come up for consideration? What about that trip by Donald Trump
0:49:13 > 0:49:19to the UK?Well, good luck to us all.
0:49:19 > 0:49:23LAUGHTER And on that note, do come on a game.
0:49:23 > 0:49:29Thank you very much.
0:49:29 > 0:49:31Just an update on those Brexit Impact statements
0:49:31 > 0:49:32we were talking about.
0:49:32 > 0:49:36While we have been on air Brexit minister Steve Baker has told
0:49:36 > 0:49:39the Commons that it will take government some time to collate
0:49:39 > 0:49:42and bring together this information in a way that is accessible
0:49:42 > 0:49:43and informative to the committee.
0:49:43 > 0:49:47We will provide this information to the committee as soon
0:49:47 > 0:49:49as it is possible.
0:49:49 > 0:49:51We currently expect this to be no
0:49:51 > 0:49:52more than three weeks.
0:49:52 > 0:49:57So briefly, a delay.It's an acceptance they will do it and I was
0:49:57 > 0:50:02one of those that said just get on and do it and I think this is what
0:50:02 > 0:50:05is happening so it's the right thing to do. I think we are in the best
0:50:05 > 0:50:09position now.All right.
0:50:09 > 0:50:12Now, it's not been a great few weeks for politicians,
0:50:12 > 0:50:13of the human species at least.
0:50:13 > 0:50:18So could chimpanzees and other primates do a better job?
0:50:18 > 0:50:20We ask all the big questions on this programme.
0:50:20 > 0:50:22We ask all the big questions on this programme.
0:50:22 > 0:50:25In a moment I'll be talking to a professor of politics
0:50:25 > 0:50:27who reckons chimps demonstrate many of the same political
0:50:27 > 0:50:28instincts as we do.
0:50:28 > 0:50:30First here's primatologist, Frans de Waal, on the chimp
0:50:30 > 0:50:32equivalent of kissing babies.
0:50:32 > 0:50:34They are literally kissing babies, a bit like the human politicians
0:50:34 > 0:50:37who hold up babies high in the air and the male chimpanzees,
0:50:37 > 0:50:40they go around tickling babies and making clear to the females
0:50:40 > 0:50:42that they are good with babies and they can be
0:50:42 > 0:50:43trusted in that regard.
0:50:43 > 0:50:46Another thing that they do is they try to collect food
0:50:46 > 0:50:47and share it with everyone.
0:50:47 > 0:50:49For example, Arnhem Zoo where I used to work,
0:50:49 > 0:50:52the males would try to get into the live oak trees,
0:50:52 > 0:50:54which is very difficult because they are surrounded
0:50:54 > 0:50:58by electric wire, and if they would get in there they would break off
0:50:58 > 0:51:00a lot of branches and spread them around and everyone
0:51:00 > 0:51:02would have food to eat.
0:51:02 > 0:51:04In the wild, they may try to appropriate meat that has
0:51:04 > 0:51:07been hunted by other males and then divide it and give it
0:51:07 > 0:51:12to their supporters.
0:51:12 > 0:51:14We're joined now by the Political scientist, James Tilley,
0:51:14 > 0:51:15who presented that programme, Primate Politics,
0:51:15 > 0:51:22on Radio 4 last night.
0:51:22 > 0:51:28Welcome to the Daily Politics. The conclusion of your rather
0:51:28 > 0:51:31fascinating programme is our political systems are similar to
0:51:31 > 0:51:37that of our ape cousins?To some extent, yes. Chimpanzees live in
0:51:37 > 0:51:41these big social groups, 50-100 individuals. There is a hierarchy,
0:51:41 > 0:51:46leaders, drawn from a small pool of chimpanzees and they change every
0:51:46 > 0:51:52few years, so in the basic sense there's politics happening there.
0:51:52 > 0:51:57What's interesting is how we see it in human society to an extent so the
0:51:57 > 0:52:00politics of chimpanzee groups is about manoeuvrings and a few
0:52:00 > 0:52:03chimpanzees within these groups, in order to become leader, there's two
0:52:03 > 0:52:07ways to do that, they form coalitions with one another, to try
0:52:07 > 0:52:12to get the top job, and of course that's very much like politicians
0:52:12 > 0:52:17within parties getting together to assume power. They also tried to
0:52:17 > 0:52:20appeal to other chimpanzees within the group which is very similar to
0:52:20 > 0:52:26getting support from voters for your proposed leadership.So can you see
0:52:26 > 0:52:38the similarity, Iain Duncan Smith,? We are social animals. If you looked
0:52:38 > 0:52:40at gorillas, it would be the same thing for form social groups, have
0:52:40 > 0:52:48leaders, and I think we are social animals and I thought some of the
0:52:48 > 0:52:51pictures thrashing around with a stick, looked a bit like my
0:52:51 > 0:52:59colleagues. Anyone in particular? No.Do they do it better than our
0:52:59 > 0:53:05politicians?The social intelligence of chimpanzees are better than
0:53:05 > 0:53:10humans, some would argue, and they spend more time putting together
0:53:10 > 0:53:14coalitions and perceiving one another, so in some senses, as
0:53:14 > 0:53:18politicians within groups, they are better at it than humans.This idea
0:53:18 > 0:53:21of redistribution as part of human and eight political organisations,
0:53:21 > 0:53:28why?It is the standard, how do you get support? You can be liked or you
0:53:28 > 0:53:33can buy it and chimpanzees tried to do both, so being liked, they go
0:53:33 > 0:53:36around kissing babies, and proving that they are likeable characters,
0:53:36 > 0:53:42just like human politicians do, but they are also very keen on buying
0:53:42 > 0:53:47support. The way you do that is essentially you tax everybody and
0:53:47 > 0:53:51redistribute those resources to the people you want support from.
0:53:51 > 0:53:58Chimpanzees do the same thing. This chimpanzee leader in the clip
0:53:58 > 0:54:01managed to sustain his leadership for an enormous amounts of time and
0:54:01 > 0:54:06what he did was they would go out and hunt, he would steal all the
0:54:06 > 0:54:10meat from the other hunters and give it out only to his supporters which
0:54:10 > 0:54:17is essentially what politicians do. They give them back their own money.
0:54:17 > 0:54:22That is what you do, Iain Duncan Smith?The kissing babies thing has
0:54:22 > 0:54:26stop because of health and safety. They don't have health and safety in
0:54:26 > 0:54:32the chimpanzee world.Not yet. I wonder who was imitating whom?I
0:54:32 > 0:54:37hope they don't go down that road. There is a system of patronage and
0:54:37 > 0:54:43succession.Yes, you also see other Machiavellian strategies, divide and
0:54:43 > 0:54:47rule, a common strategy, powers behind the throne are very common,
0:54:47 > 0:54:53so you often see a kind of older male chimpanzee pushing forward a
0:54:53 > 0:54:56younger leader, but really he's pulling the strings on what actually
0:54:56 > 0:54:59going on which is also what you often see in Parliamentary
0:54:59 > 0:55:04democracies with leaders who are sometimes not actually powerful
0:55:04 > 0:55:10themselves, but there are big characters behind them.Maybe you
0:55:10 > 0:55:13should spend time with chimpanzees in the wild and see what could be
0:55:13 > 0:55:19learned?Listen, my colleagues spend enough time with each other. The
0:55:19 > 0:55:23editing which frightens me now is the Planet Of The Apes story, coming
0:55:23 > 0:55:32up.Now we are moving into fiction, of course.Really?What drives
0:55:32 > 0:55:37political ambition in male apes?The same kind of drive for dominance you
0:55:37 > 0:55:46see in humans. It's not a realisation you are going to get
0:55:46 > 0:55:49success and more food, it's just you want to be in charge just like some
0:55:49 > 0:55:53humans want to be in charge and they pretend to be the kind of people to
0:55:53 > 0:55:56do that.Thank you so much for coming in. Fascinating.
0:55:56 > 0:55:58And if want to hear the whole of James's programme,
0:55:58 > 0:56:01Primate Politics, it's available on the BBC iPlayer and is repeated
0:56:01 > 0:56:03on Radio 4 on Sunday at 9.30pm.
0:56:03 > 0:56:05I know Iain Duncan Smith will put this in his diary.
0:56:05 > 0:56:09There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
0:56:09 > 0:56:11The question was, what does our guest of the day collect?
0:56:11 > 0:56:12Was it: Stamps?
0:56:12 > 0:56:13Wallpaper?
0:56:13 > 0:56:14Comics?
0:56:14 > 0:56:19Or Fossils?
0:56:19 > 0:56:25The correct answer is? The wallpaper samples in my office.
0:56:25 > 0:56:26Here's Ellie to explain.
0:56:26 > 0:56:29Now we all know that things in the House of Commons are not
0:56:29 > 0:56:30always what they seem.
0:56:30 > 0:56:31Hello, Iain Duncan Smith.
0:56:31 > 0:56:32Hello.
0:56:32 > 0:56:33Now these aren't cupboards, are they?
0:56:33 > 0:56:36Well, they're cupboards, but they're not what they seem,
0:56:36 > 0:56:37exactly, so why don't I show you?
0:56:37 > 0:56:40They are really false cupboards but false cupboards for a reason.
0:56:40 > 0:56:45For example, here we have inside here what I suppose
0:56:45 > 0:56:48are the swatches I think you might call them for the wallpaper
0:56:48 > 0:56:54around various parts of the Lords and of the Commons.
0:57:02 > 0:57:06And that all rather begs the question why?
0:57:06 > 0:57:09This office used to be a thing called the clerk of Works Office
0:57:09 > 0:57:12and these walls were obviously slightly fuller and they have
0:57:12 > 0:57:14all these wallpaper patterns with numbers and the numbers
0:57:14 > 0:57:18were the reference numbers so that if they needed more wallpaper
0:57:18 > 0:57:20they could go and get it done.
0:57:20 > 0:57:23And all of these wallpapers, I'm told, I'm no expert on this,
0:57:23 > 0:57:25have to be hand blocked.
0:57:25 > 0:57:28These aren't rolls of wallpaper you can go and buy at Homebase then?
0:57:28 > 0:57:31You know what, you can search but I don't think you'll ever find
0:57:31 > 0:57:33this in Homebase at all.
0:57:33 > 0:57:35The reality is it's very, very expensive wallpaper
0:57:35 > 0:57:40because it's all one-off, so this would be one room.
0:57:40 > 0:57:43And do you show off to people when they come into your offices?
0:57:43 > 0:57:45It depends who they are.
0:57:45 > 0:57:49If I think it's necessary for me to smooth them over a wee bit,
0:57:49 > 0:57:51and they are looking a little bit uneasy, I say.
0:57:51 > 0:57:54"Would you like to see something really unusual?"
0:57:54 > 0:57:56There's often a hesitation at that point as I reveal,
0:57:56 > 0:58:05but the reveal is the cupboards and that's exactly what happens.
0:58:05 > 0:58:07It always tends to work actually because it immediately brings, "Oh,
0:58:07 > 0:58:13my God, what's that all about?"
0:58:13 > 0:58:18Iain Duncan Smith, are you really an expert on wallpaper?No. The office
0:58:18 > 0:58:26I occupied was many years ago a thing called the clerk of works, one
0:58:26 > 0:58:28of these titles which have disappeared in the mists of times
0:58:28 > 0:58:31and they kept their wallpaper samples there and they would check
0:58:31 > 0:58:35the number on it and then shut it down for that I think it is all now
0:58:35 > 0:58:39on computer. I don't think they are ever really used. They are a talking
0:58:39 > 0:58:45point.So it's not your personal collection clearly?I know nothing
0:58:45 > 0:58:48about wallpaper at all but I just happen to know these are in my room.
0:58:48 > 0:58:51Thank you for clarifying that.
0:58:51 > 0:58:53The One O'Clock Mews is starting over on BBC One now.
0:58:53 > 0:58:55Thanks to our guests.
0:58:55 > 0:58:56That's all for today.
0:58:56 > 0:58:59Bye bye.
0:59:03 > 0:59:05For these children, life can be challenging.