0:00:38 > 0:00:41Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:41 > 0:00:45The husband of a woman jailed in Iran calls on the Government
0:00:45 > 0:00:47to be clear that his wife was on holiday when
0:00:47 > 0:00:49she was detained.
0:00:49 > 0:00:51Why did Michael Gove say that he didn't know
0:00:51 > 0:00:53what she was doing there?
0:00:53 > 0:00:56Too hard, too soft, just right.
0:00:56 > 0:00:59All the old arguments re-surface as the EU Withdrawal Bill
0:00:59 > 0:01:03returns to the Commons.
0:01:03 > 0:01:06As they continue to argue in Brussels, can agreement be reached
0:01:06 > 0:01:07here about the best way forward?
0:01:07 > 0:01:12Theresa May thought strong and stable would be a winning
0:01:12 > 0:01:15formula in the general election - but is it politicians
0:01:15 > 0:01:17with authenticity that have the midas touch?
0:01:17 > 0:01:22And we'll hear from the architectural historian who's
0:01:22 > 0:01:25gone behind the scenes of Big Bens' multi million pound makeover.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30All that in the next hour and with us for the whole
0:01:30 > 0:01:33of the programme today a Labour MP who's been around Westminster almost
0:01:33 > 0:01:37as long as Big Ben and has never had a makeover; Frank Field who chairs
0:01:37 > 0:01:42the Work and Pensions Select Commitee.
0:01:42 > 0:01:45Also here, the equally authentic although slightly less long-standing
0:01:45 > 0:01:49Conservative MP and chair of the Treasury select
0:01:49 > 0:01:53committee, Nicky Morgan.
0:01:53 > 0:01:55Welcome to both of you.
0:01:55 > 0:01:58First this morning, the husband of the British-Iranian woman,
0:01:58 > 0:02:01Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, has said the government "hasn't done
0:02:01 > 0:02:04all it could have done" to secure the release of his wife.
0:02:04 > 0:02:09She was arrested during a visit to Iran in April 2016, accused
0:02:09 > 0:02:12of trying to overthrow the regime.
0:02:12 > 0:02:16She says she was simply on holiday visiting relatives.
0:02:16 > 0:02:18Last week the Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, was accused
0:02:18 > 0:02:21of worsening Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe's plight by saying
0:02:21 > 0:02:24that she was teaching journalists in the country -
0:02:24 > 0:02:28a claim that's been seized upon by some in Iran.
0:02:28 > 0:02:32Yesterday, Boris Johnson's Cabinet Colleague, Michael Gove,
0:02:32 > 0:02:34appeared to add to the uncertainty about what Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe
0:02:34 > 0:02:40was doing there.
0:02:40 > 0:02:45I don't know. One of the things I want to stress is that...You don't
0:02:45 > 0:02:52know?Is that there is no reason why Nad anyone Zaghari-Ratcliffe should
0:02:52 > 0:02:56be in prison in Iran so far as I know. No evidence has been produced
0:02:56 > 0:03:04suggesting she should be detained. It appears here to be harming the
0:03:04 > 0:03:09human rights of someone whose plight necessarily moves us all.You say
0:03:09 > 0:03:12that you don't know who she was doing. Her husband is clear she was
0:03:12 > 0:03:17on holiday with her child.In that case I take exactly her husband's
0:03:17 > 0:03:20assurance in that regard.
0:03:20 > 0:03:22Responding to Michael Gove's comments, Nazanin's husband,
0:03:22 > 0:03:25Richard Ratcliffe, has written to Foreign Office office to "remind
0:03:25 > 0:03:28all Cabinet Ministers that the Government position
0:03:28 > 0:03:30is that the UK Government has no doubt that Nazanin
0:03:30 > 0:03:31was in Iran on holiday".
0:03:31 > 0:03:36Mr Ratcliffe spoke to the BBC this morning.
0:03:36 > 0:03:41I wrote yesterday in fact after we saw and I didn't catch it live the
0:03:41 > 0:03:45comments, but obviously my cousins did and they got very upset and
0:03:45 > 0:03:50watched it through. Don't get me wrong, he said some good things
0:03:50 > 0:03:58about Iran. He said Nazanin is on holiday and is innocent, it
0:03:58 > 0:04:02shouldn't be for Cabinet Ministers to be fudging it. I wrote to the
0:04:02 > 0:04:05Foreign Office on an e-mail setting out that the Government's position
0:04:05 > 0:04:09was clear in Parliament that the UK Government has no doubt that she was
0:04:09 > 0:04:13there on holiday and if they could please make sure all the Cabinet
0:04:13 > 0:04:22Ministers are are aware of it.Boris Johnson was asked about it this
0:04:22 > 0:04:27morning.Let me say on Iran and consular cases, they are all very
0:04:27 > 0:04:32sensitive and the key thing to understand is that we are working
0:04:32 > 0:04:36very, very hard and intensively and impartially on all those cases.
0:04:36 > 0:04:43Thank you very much. See you later, thank you.Nicky Morgan, his
0:04:43 > 0:04:50comments about the fact that Nazanin was teaching journalists in Iran may
0:04:50 > 0:04:54have worsened her situation. Your colleague Anna Soubry has called for
0:04:54 > 0:04:59him to be sacked. Do you agree with her?I think he should be
0:04:59 > 0:05:03considering his position, yes. If I thought sacking was going to make a
0:05:03 > 0:05:13difference... I mean the important point is the safety and security of
0:05:13 > 0:05:16Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe. I cannot begin to imagine what went through
0:05:16 > 0:05:20Boris Johnson and I'm afraid to say Michael Gove's minds. We all know,
0:05:20 > 0:05:23particularly after a week of coverage that she was in the country
0:05:23 > 0:05:29visiting her parents with her young daughter, that's it, end of story.
0:05:29 > 0:05:34Michael was right to say there was no justification whatsoever for the
0:05:34 > 0:05:37Iranian authorities to hold her.How irresponsible is it then of Boris
0:05:37 > 0:05:43Johnson if it's true that he had just not read the briefsproperly?
0:05:43 > 0:05:47If that is true, and that is a big if, I don't know, but that is
0:05:47 > 0:05:50inexcusable. I've been a Secretary of State but not a Foreign Secretary
0:05:50 > 0:05:55where somebody's security is at risk like in this case but frankly there
0:05:55 > 0:05:59are times when being a Secretary of State is not glamorous, involves
0:05:59 > 0:06:03reading boxes of paper every week and every night, that is the job you
0:06:03 > 0:06:07are asked to do on behalf of your country. If he doesn't want to do
0:06:07 > 0:06:10it, somebody else should be given the job.Listening to him in
0:06:10 > 0:06:15Brussels saying the case needs to be handled sensitively and impartially,
0:06:15 > 0:06:20what does he mean?I have no idea. I just don't understand why he... I
0:06:20 > 0:06:24don't know what advice he is getting that says this morning would have
0:06:24 > 0:06:28been a... This morning would have been a perfect opportunity to say, I
0:06:28 > 0:06:31heard the comments of her husband, I'm very soyry, I got it wrong and
0:06:31 > 0:06:34the situation is clear, we are doing all we can as a Government to put
0:06:34 > 0:06:44pressure on the Iranian authorities and will use everything we've got
0:06:44 > 0:06:51disposal to get her out of prison. Is he the right man to deal with
0:06:51 > 0:06:55this case?The conduct he's shown, the way he's answered the original
0:06:55 > 0:06:58question and continued it would make, I would have thought, any
0:06:58 > 0:07:01Prime Minister think, do I have the right person as Foreign Secretary
0:07:01 > 0:07:05because, sadly this is only one of a number of cases where there are
0:07:05 > 0:07:08British nationals detained around the world but obviously Iran is a
0:07:08 > 0:07:11particularly difficult area of the world to deal with.Richard
0:07:11 > 0:07:15Ratcliffe told the BBC today that he didn't want Boris Johnson to be
0:07:15 > 0:07:19sacked because he could do more good by actually now trying to get his
0:07:19 > 0:07:27wife released. Many Labour politicians have called for him to
0:07:27 > 0:07:30be sacked, Jeremy Corbyn, Tulip Sadiq and Sadiq Khan, Keir Starmer
0:07:30 > 0:07:33however told the programme that why he should have been fired a while
0:07:33 > 0:07:36ago, we should reflect on what Richard is saying this morning. Do
0:07:36 > 0:07:39you think it would be better for him to stay to see this through?I think
0:07:39 > 0:07:43Keir start Searle right on that. For -- Keir Starmer is right on that.
0:07:43 > 0:07:50For Boris Johnson to say this case needs to be handled delicately seems
0:07:50 > 0:07:54almost a contradiction in terms the given his character. The role he has
0:07:54 > 0:07:59played is appalling with Michael Gove. The idea that you can, as
0:07:59 > 0:08:04Foreign Secretary, without learning your brief, do this, and then for
0:08:04 > 0:08:08other Cabinet Ministers to put their foot in your big mouth. Why didn't
0:08:08 > 0:08:13Michael Gove say, this is not my department, that the Government's
0:08:13 > 0:08:19line is quite clear, I have nothing to say on Boris Johnson's comments
0:08:19 > 0:08:23this person is innocent, she was there on holiday, but we all know
0:08:23 > 0:08:31this is an evil regime that will use her and use this maybe to increase
0:08:31 > 0:08:36her sentence. I think that is shameful and both of them, both
0:08:36 > 0:08:40Michael Gove and Boris Johnson should hang their heads in shame for
0:08:40 > 0:08:47the role they've played in this. Richard Ratcliffe has said he thinks
0:08:47 > 0:08:51he should stay. They've spoken and they feel it's perhaps his best
0:08:51 > 0:08:55chance to get his wife released. But why do you think - I know you are
0:08:55 > 0:08:59not in the mind of Michael Gove - what would be the motivation for
0:08:59 > 0:09:03saying he didn't know what she was doing there, bearing in mind there's
0:09:03 > 0:09:06been so much publicity around it and the Government's clarified the
0:09:06 > 0:09:09position that she was there on holiday. Do they know something we
0:09:09 > 0:09:15don't?Well, look, possibly and I didn't see the clip live yesterday
0:09:15 > 0:09:18morning so I don't know whether there was something before. But as I
0:09:18 > 0:09:21said, I don't know what was going through the minds of Michael and
0:09:21 > 0:09:26Boris when they said what they said. I think it's right to listen, of
0:09:26 > 0:09:29course, to Nazanin's husband up close, he's suffering the agonies of
0:09:29 > 0:09:33his wife and daughter not being here, it must be dominating every
0:09:33 > 0:09:38single second of his life. If that's what he thinks OK, but I would say
0:09:38 > 0:09:42that people sl to be very mindful of everything they say in a case like
0:09:42 > 0:09:46this.Michael Gove in that interview yesterday was backing up Boris
0:09:46 > 0:09:51Johnson's position, saying it was very much the Iranian authorities'
0:09:51 > 0:09:56fault that this happened.That is right.Of course it is.Is this
0:09:56 > 0:09:59about Michael Gove protecting his Brexiteer colleague?I don't think
0:09:59 > 0:10:04it's about that. Undoubtedly when you are on any kind of sofa and in
0:10:04 > 0:10:07the Cabinet, you are there to stand up and to defend your Cabinet
0:10:07 > 0:10:11colleagues on the basis of collective responsibility and
0:10:11 > 0:10:15supporting each other but I think Frank has provided a perfect script
0:10:15 > 0:10:18that Michael could have used and perhaps he'll ask you next time
0:10:18 > 0:10:23Frank for advice before he goes on the Marr programme.What is so
0:10:23 > 0:10:28worrying about this, isn't it, is that if he was going into defend his
0:10:28 > 0:10:31colleague, God help what is going to happen when Boris Johnson's enemies
0:10:31 > 0:10:36set on him. It's opened the whole issue again which was beginning to
0:10:36 > 0:10:41die down, if it could die down, but I agree with what's been the theme
0:10:41 > 0:10:47of this. I mean, the real culprit is Iran, an evil regime. We ought to
0:10:47 > 0:10:51bear that in mind. But we don't go around making it easy for them to be
0:10:51 > 0:10:57nasty to British citizens.All right.For goodness sake.All right.
0:10:57 > 0:10:59Now it's time for our daily quiz and it seems there
0:10:59 > 0:11:02is no aspect of our lives that is unaffected by Brexit.
0:11:02 > 0:11:04According to reports in the press this morning Michel Barnier
0:11:04 > 0:11:07is warning that there could be a rather awkward travel ban
0:11:07 > 0:11:08if the negotiations collapse.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11So what are they threatening to stop crossing the border.
0:11:23 > 0:11:27Hopefully eurocrats.
0:11:27 > 0:11:29On Friday the European Commission's Chief Negotiator Michel Barnier said
0:11:29 > 0:11:34the UK had to provide "vital" clarification on the total sum it's
0:11:34 > 0:11:36prepared to pay to the EU.
0:11:36 > 0:11:40He said the British need to be clear in the next fortnight,
0:11:40 > 0:11:43before the December EU Council summit where leaders of the EU27
0:11:43 > 0:11:46will judge whether or not it's time to begin trade negotiations.
0:11:46 > 0:11:49But as we approach this crucial point in the negotiations,
0:11:49 > 0:11:53what other outstanding Brexit issues are occupying the Prime
0:11:53 > 0:11:57Minister here at home?
0:11:57 > 0:12:01This week the EU Withdrawal Bill is back in Parliament -
0:12:01 > 0:12:02with a controversial amendment attached setting the
0:12:02 > 0:12:08exact date of Brexit.
0:12:08 > 0:12:12If it succeeds, 11pm on the 29th March 2019 will be fixed in law
0:12:12 > 0:12:15as the time the UK leaves the EU - regardless of the state
0:12:15 > 0:12:17of negotiations.
0:12:17 > 0:12:23It's unclear if many Conservatives will vote
0:12:23 > 0:12:26against that amendment - but one who will, Anna Soubry, has
0:12:26 > 0:12:28called it "a very foolish mistake".
0:12:28 > 0:12:31Closer to the Cabinet table it's not clear things
0:12:31 > 0:12:35are easier for Theresa May - she's had a letter from Michael Gove
0:12:35 > 0:12:36and Boris Johnson.
0:12:36 > 0:12:39That's reported to say some government departments are focusing
0:12:39 > 0:12:41"insufficient energy" on Brexit preparations...
0:12:41 > 0:12:45And it apparently features a demand that a transition deal be
0:12:45 > 0:12:47a maximum of two years.
0:12:47 > 0:12:51Labour have been piling on the pressure too -
0:12:51 > 0:12:58Shadow Brexit Secretary Keir Starmer has been outlining the party's
0:12:58 > 0:12:59own transition amendments.
0:12:59 > 0:13:02They're calling for a guaranteed role for the European Court
0:13:02 > 0:13:04of Justice during any transitional period.
0:13:04 > 0:13:09But the action isn't all on the green benches -
0:13:09 > 0:13:12today Brexit Committee chair Hilary Benn will meet David Davis.
0:13:12 > 0:13:15To discuss the release of Brexit impact assessments into 58 different
0:13:15 > 0:13:17sectors of the UK economy.
0:13:17 > 0:13:20And Theresa May's hosting business leaders from across the EU
0:13:20 > 0:13:23in Number 10 Downing Street - they want a transition deal that
0:13:23 > 0:13:24preserves the status quo.
0:13:24 > 0:13:29Well we can talk now about that to our Business Editor, Simon Jack,
0:13:29 > 0:13:32who is in Downing Street.
0:13:33 > 0:13:37.Welcome, Simon. Is Theresa May going to be hearing anything from or
0:13:37 > 0:13:41saying anything to these groups that hasn't been said before?
0:13:41 > 0:13:44Well, this will be the first time that she'll speak directly to these
0:13:44 > 0:13:48business groups, if you like, the European equivalent of the CBI. She
0:13:48 > 0:13:53invited them in to get their take on how best to proceed to minimise any
0:13:53 > 0:13:58damage. Basically the message is, there is mutual self-interest here,
0:13:58 > 0:14:02if there are problems at Dover, for example, there'll be problems at
0:14:02 > 0:14:04Calais and which need to work together to minimise the problems.
0:14:04 > 0:14:10The businesses want to stress the urgency of the situation today, the
0:14:10 > 0:14:14head of business Europe wrote recently to Donald Tusk saying she
0:14:14 > 0:14:19was concerned at the slow progress. They want a transition deal, just
0:14:19 > 0:14:23like their counterparts here, they want a transitional deal arranged so
0:14:23 > 0:14:26everyone will have an idea of what it will look like by the time we
0:14:26 > 0:14:30come to the December talks. Number Ten say this is unfair, transitional
0:14:30 > 0:14:35deal with the ECJ still in charge is also stated Government policy and
0:14:35 > 0:14:39when it comes to the slow pace of progress, It Takes Two to tango or
0:14:39 > 0:14:42not in this case. This is the negotiation. That is holding them
0:14:42 > 0:14:47up. The other by-product Number Ten will be hoping for is that the
0:14:47 > 0:14:50business group also go back home to their own politicians and say, there
0:14:50 > 0:14:54could be some grave damage to our businesses as well. One German
0:14:54 > 0:15:02business group said it could cost the German automotive sector £200
0:15:02 > 0:15:08billion. They need the progress and the transitional deal agreed so they
0:15:08 > 0:15:12can deal wit in December. Interesting the point you made about
0:15:12 > 0:15:20two to tan goal or not in this case -- tango. Is there any evidence they
0:15:20 > 0:15:23are pressurising their own national governments or have done so up until
0:15:23 > 0:15:33now, as well as come here to the UK to pressurise Theresa May?It's very
0:15:33 > 0:15:37interesting view as that, I was talking to a big German car
0:15:37 > 0:15:42manufacturer recently, Theresa May says when you go back to Angela
0:15:42 > 0:15:47Merkel and tell her your concerns, they say Angela Merkel says I have
0:15:47 > 0:15:50not got the bandwidth for this at the moment, I am trying to form a
0:15:50 > 0:15:55government, speak to Brussels, not Berlin. It seems that back channel
0:15:55 > 0:15:58of isms is talking through politicians is working particularly
0:15:58 > 0:16:05well.Nicky Morgan, Anna Soubry, this amendment fixing the Brexit
0:16:05 > 0:16:09date is three foolish, will you be voting against it?I haven't decided
0:16:09 > 0:16:15why we are putting this date on the face of the bill. It seems to me a
0:16:15 > 0:16:20poor negotiating tactic. And you know, the bill is not about Brexit
0:16:20 > 0:16:24per se, it's about the process, that's what government ministers
0:16:24 > 0:16:29have always explain to us, it's about process, getting the law,
0:16:29 > 0:16:32rather than Brexit whether it happens are not. It's happening, we
0:16:32 > 0:16:37have had the vote, we have to your Article 50 process, it's about how
0:16:37 > 0:16:43Parliament scrutinises the law.Why is there a need to fix the date?I
0:16:43 > 0:16:49have four amendments, my first tomorrow was fixing the date. Why?
0:16:49 > 0:16:54It seems absurd that you would go through this process and not have a
0:16:54 > 0:16:58date when this transition would be finished but if I could finish this,
0:16:58 > 0:17:05I think the government has very big criticisms now about the drive of
0:17:05 > 0:17:11the government... Whether in fact I mean, I've asked the government for
0:17:11 > 0:17:14a Brexit Cabinet which is in constant session to drive these
0:17:14 > 0:17:18negotiations, to be doing all this work behind the lines in Europe,
0:17:18 > 0:17:22above as Mrs, what it is likely to cost you and so on, one closes to
0:17:22 > 0:17:28set the date, a second clause is to move the legislation, regulation
0:17:28 > 0:17:33over, the third is that Parliament decides how we review that and the
0:17:33 > 0:17:37fourth is a safe haven and I believe just as tomorrow they are accepting
0:17:37 > 0:17:43my first clause, when they get to the hand-to-hand fighting in the
0:17:43 > 0:17:47Lords, there is no way, no guillotine, cut off process... They
0:17:47 > 0:17:53will actually jettison most of the spill and we will be left with a
0:17:53 > 0:17:59four clause bill about getting us out on time with the very clear
0:17:59 > 0:18:03legislation in here, how we review it...They are worried you are going
0:18:03 > 0:18:09to thwart this bill unless it is in law?They were worried that the
0:18:09 > 0:18:12Article 50 bill wasn't going to go through, the second reading of the
0:18:12 > 0:18:17spill, ministers and those who think Brexit is a great idea need to stop
0:18:17 > 0:18:20worrying about trying to justify and trying to hold onto the result of
0:18:20 > 0:18:24the referendum, the result is there, it's happened, this country is
0:18:24 > 0:18:31leading the EU and I'm afraid to say the Prime Minister's tone deaf, tin
0:18:31 > 0:18:34eared article on Friday was guaranteed to continue to deepen
0:18:34 > 0:18:37divisions in the Conservative Party rather than trying to heal them
0:18:37 > 0:18:41which is what you should be doing. I have won agreement with Frank on
0:18:41 > 0:18:46this, the drive that is needed to get this stuff done and all the
0:18:46 > 0:18:49other things that government needs to be doing.Right. Why are you in a
0:18:49 > 0:18:53quandary as to whether to vote against it?I still don't
0:18:53 > 0:18:57understand, this bill has been explained to us by ministers, David
0:18:57 > 0:19:02Davis, who says Bill, you people should have no problems with this...
0:19:02 > 0:19:06What's wrong with putting an end date on it?That's more about
0:19:06 > 0:19:10Brexit, and it happening or not happening, I except it's happening,
0:19:10 > 0:19:15we have Article 50 which is a clear two-year process, at the end of
0:19:15 > 0:19:19March 2019 we will not be members of the EU, this is by Parliament and
0:19:19 > 0:19:24the rights of Parliament. Those who know about negotiating strategies
0:19:24 > 0:19:28say it's a bad idea to put a hard date in at the end on the face of
0:19:28 > 0:19:31the bill, that's not what this bill is designed to do.Those who know
0:19:31 > 0:19:36about negotiations and in charge of what's going on. That's a bigger,
0:19:36 > 0:19:40broader issue. Whole thing is meandering over the place, there is
0:19:40 > 0:19:47no central drive and the key fact is, that when we withdraw, if there
0:19:47 > 0:19:51is no agreement, there is no money coming in so the empty bowls from
0:19:51 > 0:19:55Poland and all the rest will be coming up saying, where is our money
0:19:55 > 0:19:58to the Germans and the Germans will say there is no money, there's going
0:19:58 > 0:20:04to be a mega- crisis. At this stage, because they need our money, the
0:20:04 > 0:20:11boot will go on to the other foot and we need to stress that, how will
0:20:11 > 0:20:15start to come do us, the nearer we get to the final parts of the
0:20:15 > 0:20:18negotiation.There nothing to worry about and are you happy with the
0:20:18 > 0:20:23idea of no deal?I think we should have a proper, thought out no deal
0:20:23 > 0:20:27stands, that might have to happen, anybody going into negotiations
0:20:27 > 0:20:30would have that as part of the armoury. What worries me is, I get
0:20:30 > 0:20:36no sense this is the biggest issue facing the government.To do this...
0:20:36 > 0:20:47Really, it's the only thing they're doing, it's part of the problem.The
0:20:47 > 0:20:50Cabinet is in constant session like Churchill's War Cabinet.Are there
0:20:50 > 0:20:55people in the Cabinet who agree with Nicky Morgan, recalcitrant
0:20:55 > 0:21:00remainders who make this difficult? There is a lot of people who want
0:21:00 > 0:21:05these negotiations to fail but they won't actually say so. And there are
0:21:05 > 0:21:10one or two people, like Ken Clark, who are quite honest but most people
0:21:10 > 0:21:17who want the process to fail, so we revoke the decision to come out, are
0:21:17 > 0:21:24appearing to be, as I say, Wolves in sheep clothing, saying we must make
0:21:24 > 0:21:28this a better this, we must make this a better that. The aim of many
0:21:28 > 0:21:31people in Parliament still is to thwart the process, so we don't
0:21:31 > 0:21:38withdraw.Let us talk about the letter from Boris Johnson and
0:21:38 > 0:21:42Michael Gove, wasn't appropriate to send a letter direct Theresa May and
0:21:42 > 0:21:46saying there are part of the government but I've making
0:21:46 > 0:21:48insufficient progress and there is insufficient energy and then it
0:21:48 > 0:21:52appeared in the papers? Is that the right way to govern?Couple of
0:21:52 > 0:21:57things. Firstly ministers to write to the Prime Minister on a private
0:21:57 > 0:22:01basis, I did it to David Cameron and I'm sure others did about them is we
0:22:01 > 0:22:04particularly cared about and want to see the government agenda. She did
0:22:04 > 0:22:09have leaked? No. Should they be directing the Prime Minister? No,
0:22:09 > 0:22:15she is the Prime Minister, but they can say this is my view. The point
0:22:15 > 0:22:19about insufficient energy, I think there is insufficient energy, the
0:22:19 > 0:22:22budget coming up, that is a time for government to show energy in other
0:22:22 > 0:22:27areas. The way people vote in the referendum will not necessarily be
0:22:27 > 0:22:31addressed I Brexit, things like economic growth, wage increase, the
0:22:31 > 0:22:35government has got to show energy on all those things.Insufficient
0:22:35 > 0:22:40energy was about preparation for Brexit.I have to say, there is
0:22:40 > 0:22:46massive amounts of energy being expended on Brexit, plenty of the
0:22:46 > 0:22:49departments, papers circulated, insufficient energy, the debate on
0:22:49 > 0:22:52the impact assessment you talked about at the beginning of this
0:22:52 > 0:22:57piece, we were told there were 58 impact assessments, we are told they
0:22:57 > 0:23:03are not there. Do you think they exist? There are bits and pieces of
0:23:03 > 0:23:06paper but I am not sure they could be pulled together to make an impact
0:23:06 > 0:23:11assessment.Do you think there really was... I think there is more
0:23:11 > 0:23:16chance that those papers exist than the chairman of the Tory backbench
0:23:16 > 0:23:21committee has 40 names to dethrone Mr macro which I think, I doubt
0:23:21 > 0:23:26whether he's got many names at all. But it's interesting that was a
0:23:26 > 0:23:30demand for 58 political assessments or the impact assessments on 58
0:23:30 > 0:23:33sectors were asked to be produced and then they could be produced. Is
0:23:33 > 0:23:37that because they don't exist in this order form we presume?I think
0:23:37 > 0:23:43that's exactly right.The form they should exist... If we take the need
0:23:43 > 0:23:47for housing, the big uplift we want in the budget. We need to link that
0:23:47 > 0:23:51to say there will be a labour supply coming in to meet that. Until we
0:23:51 > 0:23:56have home-grown our own supply. Apple then cut immigration, that
0:23:56 > 0:23:59will then give us serious welfare reforms.We will talk about these
0:23:59 > 0:24:04things in a moment.Adding across departments we need, we don't need
0:24:04 > 0:24:08apartments trotting out the old thing from their silos saying what
0:24:08 > 0:24:11they think...You don't think there's a need for the impact
0:24:11 > 0:24:15assessments at all? Let's talk about labour, you the government lacks
0:24:15 > 0:24:19drive to push these negotiations forward, using labour would do a
0:24:19 > 0:24:24better job with their view on Brexit and the negotiations when Keir
0:24:24 > 0:24:27Starmer said leaving the EU without a deal would cause constitutional
0:24:27 > 0:24:37disturbance?Britain's don't have the sort of disturbances, she said.
0:24:37 > 0:24:42What is Keir Starmer doing? What I am saying, the Prime Minister should
0:24:42 > 0:24:46now go Top Gear, we should actually have a Brexit Cabinet as we had a
0:24:46 > 0:24:50War Cabinet, the Prime Minister should offer up places to the
0:24:50 > 0:24:54opposition leaders to become part of that, to bind them in, that would
0:24:54 > 0:24:59begin to tell us who is making gestures and who is serious about
0:24:59 > 0:25:03getting the very, very best move for the country.You agree with Sue
0:25:03 > 0:25:09James Dyson who was a lead vote and talked about Brexit, give or on the
0:25:09 > 0:25:13same site when it comes to this big decision, he said the only way to
0:25:13 > 0:25:17make a success Brexit was to make it easier to hire and fire people and
0:25:17 > 0:25:22abolish corporation tax?Do you agree? I don't agree. I thought his
0:25:22 > 0:25:27other comments about that we should prepare for a no deal were much
0:25:27 > 0:25:33more, less partial than what one might expect from a businessman.
0:25:33 > 0:25:37Normally he rises above what might be good for his business by taking a
0:25:37 > 0:25:42national interest and I don't, it might be jolly good for his firm and
0:25:42 > 0:25:45the brilliance of it but it's certainly not good news for...But
0:25:45 > 0:25:49he also said Britain should walk away now from negotiations, is he
0:25:49 > 0:25:53right?I think we should consider if this farce goes on, to say there is
0:25:53 > 0:26:00no money coming, you are in real problems.They need the money, Nicky
0:26:00 > 0:26:03Morgan, don't they? There is a black hole in the budget, that would focus
0:26:03 > 0:26:08minds.There are commitments we make to the EU which we need to honour.
0:26:08 > 0:26:13If we don't all of them, they don't seriously start negotiating...Not
0:26:13 > 0:26:17even the 20 billion euros Theresa May has set...They can string so
0:26:17 > 0:26:23long, once they get the money there will be no interest in any way in
0:26:23 > 0:26:29coming to an agreement.This is political... We will let Nicky
0:26:29 > 0:26:33Morgan respond. Out there in the country there are real people with
0:26:33 > 0:26:36real jobs reliant on whether its funding from the EU, people coming
0:26:36 > 0:26:41from abroad to work, it's all very well for people like James Dyson,
0:26:41 > 0:26:46this is a secret agenda for a number of people, it's not for the British
0:26:46 > 0:26:51people want, it's not an answer to the issues. I suspect it is obvious
0:26:51 > 0:26:55what some of my colleagues would like and I thought John Major made a
0:26:55 > 0:26:58brilliant speech a few months ago saying this is not what the billion
0:26:58 > 0:27:02people want. We asked James Dyson to appear before the Treasury Select
0:27:02 > 0:27:06Committee, he was not available as Wednesday but could appear on the
0:27:06 > 0:27:09Andrew Marr Show. We very much hope you will come back in the New Year.
0:27:09 > 0:27:15Sunday meetings.You can make your suggestions. I have plenty of work
0:27:15 > 0:27:20on Sundays, thank you.Seven days a week.
0:27:20 > 0:27:23"Take back control of our borders" that was the oft repeated mantra
0:27:23 > 0:27:24of Brexit campaigners.
0:27:24 > 0:27:26The assumption being that taking back control would mean reducing
0:27:26 > 0:27:28the numbers coming into the UK.
0:27:28 > 0:27:29But should post-Brexit immigration actually be increased?
0:27:29 > 0:27:31City AM's Rachel Cunliffe thinks so.
0:27:31 > 0:27:38Here's her soapbox.
0:27:47 > 0:27:51Taking back control of our borders doesn't have to mean reducing
0:27:51 > 0:27:55immigration. Now that Brexit is happening, there is an assumption
0:27:55 > 0:27:57that migration numbers will inevitably be slashed. This would be
0:27:57 > 0:28:02a mistake. We don't need the number of foreign workers to follow in
0:28:02 > 0:28:06order to to honour the will of the people who voted for Brexit, the
0:28:06 > 0:28:09psychology of immigration in the sense of anxiety and discomfort
0:28:09 > 0:28:15borders feel about it isn't really linked to levels at all. During the
0:28:15 > 0:28:18EU referendum Australia's points -based immigration system was
0:28:18 > 0:28:22heralded by league heavyweights such as Boris Johnson, Michael Gove Andy
0:28:22 > 0:28:26Burnham Nigel Farage. But Australia has three times the net migration
0:28:26 > 0:28:33per capita Britain doors. In the 2016 survey just 34% of Australians
0:28:33 > 0:28:38thought immigration should be reduced. In contrast, 77% of Brits
0:28:38 > 0:28:40thought immigration was too high in a survey conduct did for the
0:28:40 > 0:28:46referendum. Clearly there is a disconnect the migration levels and
0:28:46 > 0:28:50the cultural anxiety surrounding it. But we can end free movement, take
0:28:50 > 0:28:58back control and still welcome the people we need. We should increase
0:28:58 > 0:29:02numbers, especially from non-EU countries like the US, India and
0:29:02 > 0:29:06China. We should lower their wage threshold on hiring foreign workers,
0:29:06 > 0:29:09nurses and care workers for a start and make sure all businesses have
0:29:09 > 0:29:15the skills they need. This isn't a betrayal of the Brexit vote. It's
0:29:15 > 0:29:18honouring it by building immigration system specifically for the UK. So
0:29:18 > 0:29:26let's take back control of immigration and increase it!
0:29:26 > 0:29:31Rachel Cunliffe is here with us now. Welcome. You say in the film before
0:29:31 > 0:29:36the referendum 70% of Brits thought the level of immigration was too
0:29:36 > 0:29:40high, want an awful lot of lead voters feel betrayed Britain
0:29:40 > 0:29:45increases immigration post Brexit?I think that's what the assumption is
0:29:45 > 0:29:49but look at the studies done since the referendum, you see the anxiety
0:29:49 > 0:29:54around migration numbers decreases significantly when you point to
0:29:54 > 0:29:59specific jobs, for example, 22% of British people think that reducing
0:29:59 > 0:30:02immigration should come at the expense of the economy, for example.
0:30:02 > 0:30:0786% of British people would like the number of highly skilled migrants to
0:30:07 > 0:30:12either stay the same or increase when you start to break it down,
0:30:12 > 0:30:15this general discomfort that people have around migration doesn't
0:30:15 > 0:30:18actually applies when you are talking about specific skills we
0:30:18 > 0:30:26might need.Frank Field? I accept that. The key reason why Donald
0:30:26 > 0:30:29Trump's vote has remained is that people did not believe he would
0:30:29 > 0:30:33build a wall but he would be on a journey to control immigration. I
0:30:33 > 0:30:36think some did believe... I don't think so, I think they thought this
0:30:36 > 0:30:40man would try and do something that other politicians had failed and
0:30:40 > 0:30:43what I don't sense from the government, they have any feel about
0:30:43 > 0:30:48how they are going to implement that promise, even if it's over the
0:30:48 > 0:30:52longer term. Will people feel betrayed? I don't think so if we
0:30:52 > 0:30:57spell out the moment, we are now in business to handle the economy. We
0:30:57 > 0:31:02are looking at care workers, building workers, we will have in
0:31:02 > 0:31:07place training skills so that people can opt for them and become part of
0:31:07 > 0:31:14that labour force, only when we've got a skills supply home grown, so
0:31:14 > 0:31:19to speak. Can we start bringing down the actual totals.
0:31:19 > 0:31:25So you want to see the totals coming down?We know they've got up because
0:31:25 > 0:31:30the total inadequacy of our labour force here which is either that they
0:31:30 > 0:31:33won't take jobs which other people coming in will take or they don't
0:31:33 > 0:31:39have the skills. This is what I was trying to say earlier, Jo, that
0:31:39 > 0:31:43Brexit and immigration policies and a welfare reform policy goes
0:31:43 > 0:31:47together. We have to have the jobs available to put restrictions on
0:31:47 > 0:31:50people's benefits to then also be able to prom toys bring down
0:31:50 > 0:31:53immigration in the long run.Do you accept that, that immigration would
0:31:53 > 0:31:57come down and should come down in the long-term once we have trained
0:31:57 > 0:32:01enough people in Britain to do the jobs that are currently done by
0:32:01 > 0:32:06immigrants?That is a hugely hypothetical question, you are
0:32:06 > 0:32:20talking about years or decades. When you have a high volume of migration,
0:32:20 > 0:32:22particularly from innovative countries, entrepreneurial, they
0:32:22 > 0:32:25want to start businesses, those kinds of people create opportunities
0:32:25 > 0:32:29and create new jobs and skills.Not the mass of people that are coming
0:32:29 > 0:32:33in, they are coming in to do semi-skilled jobs. Of course we want
0:32:33 > 0:32:40those people, we want the dynamism in our economy but the idea takes
0:32:40 > 0:32:44ages to actually become a brickie you can be trained to do the job in
0:32:44 > 0:32:4813 week and can be on site. In your second year you can be earning £150
0:32:48 > 0:32:53a day.For whatever reason, that is not happening.It's because of the
0:32:53 > 0:32:56Government... .Hang on. You say it's not happening at the moment and
0:32:56 > 0:33:00it would take years to actually do. Do you want immigration to come
0:33:00 > 0:33:04down?Thereth I want there to be the right immigration and the right
0:33:04 > 0:33:09numbers for our economy. I was never entirely convinced by this, we have
0:33:09 > 0:33:13got to get it below a certain number because that misses all the nuances.
0:33:13 > 0:33:18People understand about the need for high skilled immigration but also
0:33:18 > 0:33:22low skilled. We have remarkably almost full employment in this
0:33:22 > 0:33:24country, NHS, social care, construction industry, if we are
0:33:24 > 0:33:28going to have a housing package in a budget, all need people from abroad.
0:33:28 > 0:33:31The most important thing that happened over the summer was Amber
0:33:31 > 0:33:35Rudd, the Home Secretary, asking the mightration Advisory Council to do a
0:33:35 > 0:33:39proper in-depth analysis of who we will need to come here, which
0:33:39 > 0:33:45sectors are in need of migration most and which ones we can perhaps
0:33:45 > 0:33:50train people up on over time.That will be one of those assessments we
0:33:50 > 0:33:54haven't said yet. David Davis when he met Michel Barnier said more
0:33:54 > 0:33:58people to come if need be on immigration won't be pulling up draw
0:33:58 > 0:34:01bridge bigger pool to fish from. I come back to the initial point that
0:34:01 > 0:34:05there was a feeling that there were people who voted in the referendum
0:34:05 > 0:34:10to leave because they did want to see numbers broadly coming down?I'm
0:34:10 > 0:34:13sure that's absolutely right, based on conversations I've had in my
0:34:13 > 0:34:17constituency, there are people who undoubt think did that. That's
0:34:17 > 0:34:20partly the politicians' failure not to have had a debate about
0:34:20 > 0:34:26immigration. The previous Labour Government...That...Nobody asked
0:34:26 > 0:34:30them. I think most people want to know who is coming here, why and how
0:34:30 > 0:34:33long they are coming for and also when they are going to go home if
0:34:33 > 0:34:39that is the right thing.We talk about an economy...What are we
0:34:39 > 0:34:43doing about training to create full employment for British workers.But
0:34:43 > 0:34:49to you accept Labour did make a mistake in terms of immigration?I
0:34:49 > 0:34:52was the first person to criticise to say we should never have gone into
0:34:52 > 0:34:55the deal with the accession countries without having
0:34:55 > 0:34:59restrictions on them. I mean, there's no question about where I
0:34:59 > 0:35:03hope to appear. The toughest person on the Labour side about
0:35:03 > 0:35:08immigration. But the idea that anybody believes that we should have
0:35:08 > 0:35:12a draw bridge policy to pull it up, people need to trust the politicians
0:35:12 > 0:35:19on the direction of travel and the direction of...You get it.You get
0:35:19 > 0:35:22it by having the policies I've been talking about today which is
0:35:22 > 0:35:27actually that you do not have a draw bridge but you do have plans in the
0:35:27 > 0:35:31longer term for more British people to have better opportunities to take
0:35:31 > 0:35:34the jobs that are being done.In that case when it comes to the
0:35:34 > 0:35:39immigration system that is going to be devised in the post-Brexit world,
0:35:39 > 0:35:44should EU citizens have preferential treatment after Brexit to non-EUs?
0:35:44 > 0:35:48That depends on the negotiations and the overall deal that is struck. The
0:35:48 > 0:35:52it's something we should be aware of. Undoubtedly unfortunately, some
0:35:52 > 0:35:56of the leave campaigners promised a non-EU community that actually
0:35:56 > 0:35:59they'll be able to bring in many more people because EU immigration
0:35:59 > 0:36:04would be stopped. Again that is going to be unpicked, they have to
0:36:04 > 0:36:10be honest about the debate and the trade-offs.You are a journalist at
0:36:10 > 0:36:15City AM. Britain has broadly benefitted. Some would say your
0:36:15 > 0:36:22sector's grown at the detriment to the rest of the UK.We have
0:36:22 > 0:36:25benefitted from migration more than perhaps other sectors have done. I
0:36:25 > 0:36:29don't really hold this idea that other people have been disadvantaged
0:36:29 > 0:36:34by myingration. We are not just talking about City workers here, we
0:36:34 > 0:36:37are talking about technology, engineering, low-skilled workers. I
0:36:37 > 0:36:41don't like that term because a lot of low-skilled or unskilled jobs
0:36:41 > 0:36:45require a level of skill and clearly those aren't necessarily skills that
0:36:45 > 0:36:49we have in this country but I just want to say that I particularly
0:36:49 > 0:36:52agree with Nicky, showing that we are in control, people just wanting
0:36:52 > 0:36:56to know who, are the people, where are they coming from and what are
0:36:56 > 0:37:01they coming here for? 71% of migrants come here either to work or
0:37:01 > 0:37:05to study. They are net contributors to the economy on the other hand
0:37:05 > 0:37:08message hasn't come across. Thank you.
0:37:08 > 0:37:11So MPs reuturn to Westminster after a short break
0:37:11 > 0:37:13at the end of last week - what's in their in-trays?
0:37:13 > 0:37:16A Budget Bill for Northern Ireland, which will allow the government
0:37:16 > 0:37:19in Westminster to set spending plans in the continuing absence
0:37:19 > 0:37:21of the Stormont Assembly, will be rushed through
0:37:21 > 0:37:23the Commons this afternoon.
0:37:23 > 0:37:26This evening the PM will deliver a speech at the Lord
0:37:26 > 0:37:30Mayor's Banquet in London.
0:37:30 > 0:37:35Brexit battles return to the Commons tomorrow as the first
0:37:35 > 0:37:38two days of the committee stage scrutiny of the EU
0:37:38 > 0:37:47Withdrawal Bill begin.
0:37:47 > 0:37:49Wednesday will see the penultimate PMQs before
0:37:49 > 0:37:51the Budget in a week's time.
0:37:51 > 0:37:52The House of Commons will hold
0:37:52 > 0:37:55a backbench debate on the roll-out of Universal Credit on Thursday,
0:37:55 > 0:37:56introduced by Frank Field.
0:37:56 > 0:37:58The vote for the next leader
0:37:58 > 0:38:00of Scottish Labour will take place on Friday.
0:38:00 > 0:38:02We're joined now by Rowena Mason of the Guardian
0:38:02 > 0:38:08and Steve Hawkes of the Sun.
0:38:08 > 0:38:15Welcome to both of you. Rowena, first of all, what do you make of
0:38:15 > 0:38:21Michael Gove's comments regarding Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe yesterday?
0:38:21 > 0:38:27It's an ill judged remark from a minister about Mrs
0:38:27 > 0:38:30Zaghari-Ratcliffe, earning him a rebuke this morning. Michael Gove
0:38:30 > 0:38:35said he didn't know what she was doing in Iran and that's added fuel
0:38:35 > 0:38:39to the flames of Boris Johnson saying that she'd only been out
0:38:39 > 0:38:43there training journalists when her family maintains she was there on
0:38:43 > 0:38:49holiday. Number Ten today have said that the Government's position, the
0:38:49 > 0:38:53agreed position is that she was out there on holiday. So Michael Gove
0:38:53 > 0:38:56there, departing from what was the Government line.
0:38:56 > 0:39:01Do we think Steve that Boris Johnson is going to still be under pressure
0:39:01 > 0:39:05to resign after repeated calls for him to be sacked by both Labour and
0:39:05 > 0:39:08some in the Conservative Party?I don't think he's going to be under
0:39:08 > 0:39:14pressure to resign as much this week. The pressure on him now is
0:39:14 > 0:39:25huge to bring Nazanin back. They were describing the sheer hell they
0:39:25 > 0:39:29are going through, there is the fact that Nazanin is being tested for
0:39:29 > 0:39:35breast cancer. It was interesting to hear Nicky a moment ago. Richard
0:39:35 > 0:39:41Ratcliffe is clear, we don't need any more stability. We need Nazanin
0:39:41 > 0:39:45back and we need Boris to deliver on that. There is a small chance for
0:39:45 > 0:39:51Boris to do something to actually salvage his reputation. That picture
0:39:51 > 0:39:57of Boris coming back with Nazanin on a plane could save him.What about
0:39:57 > 0:40:00the relationship between Michael Gove and Boris Johnson? The two seem
0:40:00 > 0:40:04to have made up obviously having fallen out spectacularly during the
0:40:04 > 0:40:07last leadership contest. They've obviously been holding secret
0:40:07 > 0:40:12monthly meetings. How dangerous is this for the Prime Minister?It's a
0:40:12 > 0:40:17remarkable reckon sailiation really but they have a mutual interest,
0:40:17 > 0:40:24trying to push Theresa May towards a very clean and decisive Brexit --
0:40:24 > 0:40:28reconciliation. Some would call it a very hard Brexit. It's dangerous for
0:40:28 > 0:40:31the Prime Minister, that is two senior Cabinet Ministers who were
0:40:31 > 0:40:36successful in the vote leave campaign and ultimately backed by
0:40:36 > 0:40:41the public in that referendum, seem to be throwing their weight around
0:40:41 > 0:40:46sending this letter, making demands to her and so she's in an
0:40:46 > 0:40:49ex-Froomely difficult position because on the other side the
0:40:49 > 0:40:57Brexiteers are pulling her in the other direction -- extremely
0:40:57 > 0:41:02difficult position.Eight short of the number required to triring a
0:41:02 > 0:41:06contest but how dangerous is this for the Prime Minister?The MPs are
0:41:06 > 0:41:09ready to sign, that is a long way from signing something. There is no
0:41:09 > 0:41:14doubt that Theresa May is in an awful lot of trouble and has to come
0:41:14 > 0:41:17back to show leadership and authority. The Government might we
0:41:17 > 0:41:21can the fact that this is -- welcome the fact that this is a Brexit
0:41:21 > 0:41:25debate because it allows people to get on the front foot. 471
0:41:25 > 0:41:28amendments is incredible. She has to show some authority and get the
0:41:28 > 0:41:33budget out of the way. That is the other thing looming. Try to get the
0:41:33 > 0:41:36reshuffle and the next generation, the new breed up. There is an
0:41:36 > 0:41:41important thing happening today. Amber Rudd is at the Centre for
0:41:41 > 0:41:45Policies event talking about the Tory party. What she says is going
0:41:45 > 0:41:50to be very interesting.The EU Withdrawal Bill, we have discussed
0:41:50 > 0:41:55it with Frank Field and Nicky Morgan, Nicky Morgan said the
0:41:55 > 0:41:58article was tone deaf and will do nothing to heal the divisions within
0:41:58 > 0:42:01the Conservative Party. What is your reaction?I think that high lites
0:42:01 > 0:42:07how much difficulty Theresa May is going to have getting the Bill
0:42:07 > 0:42:12through unless he makes concessions to Nicky Morgan and her colleagues
0:42:12 > 0:42:15on the softer Brexit wing. Labour think there are 13 amendments where
0:42:15 > 0:42:21the Prime Minister is in danger of losing unless she makes concessions,
0:42:21 > 0:42:29on things like curbing Henry 58 powers. I think the rebels and the
0:42:29 > 0:42:32rest of us are waiting to hear whether the Government will back
0:42:32 > 0:42:36down on some of these things in order to get us through the House of
0:42:36 > 0:42:39Commons.Do you think they will back down in order to get it through?I
0:42:39 > 0:42:42think they will. It's interesting, Nicky's comments, sounds like she
0:42:42 > 0:42:45wants a job on the Evening Standard...I'll ask her in a
0:42:45 > 0:42:51moment!Or whether she's going to go for George's job. There will be some
0:42:51 > 0:42:53concessions, we are hearing rumblings that David Davis will say
0:42:53 > 0:42:57something important this afternoon when he introduces the Bill in
0:42:57 > 0:43:03Parliament. . I can't see how the Government can fail to back down on
0:43:03 > 0:43:06the Henry VIII powers. There will be some concessions I'm sure.Thank you
0:43:06 > 0:43:09very much.
0:43:09 > 0:43:11So we're just nine days until the budget -
0:43:11 > 0:43:13and last minute lobbying is in full swing.
0:43:13 > 0:43:15How handy that we have the Treasury Select Committee chair
0:43:15 > 0:43:18here and the chair of the committee scrutinising one of the big
0:43:18 > 0:43:21spending departments - work and pensions.
0:43:21 > 0:43:25We are delighted that you are both here. Frank Field, recent figures
0:43:25 > 0:43:31suggest long waits in A&E have increased by 557% in seven years,
0:43:31 > 0:43:36obviously more people too. The NHS boss says Brexit funding promises
0:43:36 > 0:43:42must be honoured. To you support more money for the NHS?I have long
0:43:42 > 0:43:46supported it and #24iing of a new way of funding the health and social
0:43:46 > 0:43:53care we need, we should do it on a New Bay six of national insurance.
0:43:53 > 0:43:57-- finding a new way of funding. A lot of people don't think national
0:43:57 > 0:44:00insurance is a tax but a contribution. In return we need to
0:44:00 > 0:44:04give people a bigger say, but to make sure that the money from the
0:44:04 > 0:44:08new scheme actually goes to the Health Service.But should the
0:44:08 > 0:44:12Government follow through, Frank Field, on that vote leave pledge of
0:44:12 > 0:44:18giving £350 million to the NHS?It should follow through by, at some
0:44:18 > 0:44:22stage, monies which we spend will be returned to this country.Monies of
0:44:22 > 0:44:26that figure?I was never part of making those extraordinary things.
0:44:26 > 0:44:34But secondly...You signed up to the leave requests for...No. If you
0:44:34 > 0:44:38check the record, my contribution was very limited about getting
0:44:38 > 0:44:42Labour voters out because I saw that as the key to success.But you would
0:44:42 > 0:44:46like money to go to the NHS.It needs to be on a basis that we'd
0:44:46 > 0:44:53only keep coming back with the begging cap, that if we move to
0:44:53 > 0:44:56something like a National Health Service, insurance care, a scheme
0:44:56 > 0:44:59based on national insurance reformed progressive, I think the Government
0:44:59 > 0:45:03would get a cheer from people, rather than a fear.Well, will they
0:45:03 > 0:45:10get a cheer Nicky Morgan from this, talking of public investment, one of
0:45:10 > 0:45:16George Osborne's close allies says they should end austerity. He says
0:45:16 > 0:45:22voters won't buy it at another election. Do you agree?
0:45:22 > 0:45:26I think we will have to change the economic narrative and whether the
0:45:26 > 0:45:30Chancellor does it at this budget, it ties in with the post Brexit
0:45:30 > 0:45:35Britain, how we are going to boost wages, challenge productivity or the
0:45:35 > 0:45:38like of productivity that we have seen. Of course it's very easy to
0:45:38 > 0:45:42say let's take our foot off the brake, put more money into the NHS
0:45:42 > 0:45:47but we have to have a balance. There are people working hard to pay their
0:45:47 > 0:45:51taxes, are we collecting the right taxes, I think Frank is right at
0:45:51 > 0:45:55looking at social care.Should Philip Hamilton -- Hammond signal an
0:45:55 > 0:46:01end to social care austerity?I call that living within our means,
0:46:01 > 0:46:06balancing the books, however undoubtedly the Chancellor has
0:46:06 > 0:46:09already signalled things like public sector pay is something he is aware
0:46:09 > 0:46:13of, of course this debate about Universal Credit, there will be
0:46:13 > 0:46:19changes I think are coming but I think the whole thing about the way
0:46:19 > 0:46:23the economy, he was right in 2010, we took some pretty tough decisions
0:46:23 > 0:46:27to balance the books, it has moved on, I think that's part of the isn't
0:46:27 > 0:46:32people voted as they did in June 2016, they looked and thought we are
0:46:32 > 0:46:35aware missing out, our bosses are not giving us the money we would
0:46:35 > 0:46:39like to have, we are not seen money going into essential public
0:46:39 > 0:46:43services. This is the opportunity for government to press the reset
0:46:43 > 0:46:47button.It is about resetting the narrative and spending more, would
0:46:47 > 0:46:51you support scrapping the deficit reduction targets?Not completely,
0:46:51 > 0:46:56whether in fact the target date gets moved, that is a matter for the
0:46:56 > 0:46:59Chancellor in terms of looking at the balance sheet but I think it's
0:46:59 > 0:47:02the right thing to aim for, we are not... The interest payments have
0:47:02 > 0:47:07been more than the whole of the schools budget, that's not
0:47:07 > 0:47:10sustainable, it cannot be right for us as a country to continue to
0:47:10 > 0:47:13borrow this morning, we've got to continue to keep a lid on spending,
0:47:13 > 0:47:18but also look at the other thing is big investment driving economic
0:47:18 > 0:47:23growth, that's the way to get things going. Spending on housing you would
0:47:23 > 0:47:27support.Absolutely.Mitigating the effect of Universal Credit? Looking
0:47:27 > 0:47:31at how it's done, I'm not aware of all the numbers but of course
0:47:31 > 0:47:34particularly this six-week wait period which has been a big concern
0:47:34 > 0:47:41to MPs and every body else.To Asian fees again, more money spent?I have
0:47:41 > 0:47:45to say I am a supporter of the tuition fee policy, I think it's
0:47:45 > 0:47:48right to raise the threshold and I think we need to move on and look at
0:47:48 > 0:47:52other things.Briefly on universal but credit, Frank, are you calling
0:47:52 > 0:47:55for more funding for getting rid of it?In the longer term we want
0:47:55 > 0:48:04reforms that will start on Thursday when a cross-party motion based on
0:48:04 > 0:48:09the select committee report calling for this time limit from 6-4 weeks,
0:48:09 > 0:48:12we will actually make the views of the House of Commons felt and their
0:48:12 > 0:48:16lobbyists are resolved if I was in charge of the budget, the key think
0:48:16 > 0:48:20the Chancellor has got to do, never mind about all this technicality is
0:48:20 > 0:48:24most of us can't understand. The key thing, they have got to sound a note
0:48:24 > 0:48:27of hope, there is actually opportunities coming, particularly
0:48:27 > 0:48:31on housing and particularly protecting lower paid workers who
0:48:31 > 0:48:37are not being done right to Universal Credit.
0:48:37 > 0:48:40So Theresa May thought is was all about Strength and Stability -
0:48:40 > 0:48:43but was this year's general election really all about that slippery
0:48:43 > 0:48:44political concept - authenticity.
0:48:44 > 0:48:47The argument goes that Jeremy Corbyn had it in spades - and she didn't.
0:48:47 > 0:48:50The same contest had already been played out on the other side
0:48:50 > 0:48:57of the Atlantic of course.
0:48:57 > 0:48:59Here, a Georgetown linguistics professor looks at how
0:48:59 > 0:49:05Hillary Clinton struggled to win the trust of American voters:
0:49:05 > 0:49:09Let's go back to when Hillary Clinton first appeared in the public
0:49:09 > 0:49:13stage, 92, the wife of the former governor of Arkansas, now running
0:49:13 > 0:49:20for President. She was about as unaffected as a person could be, she
0:49:20 > 0:49:24had simple, plain brown hair, she held it back with a headband, she
0:49:24 > 0:49:28wasn't so concerned with her appearance. She was ridiculed, a
0:49:28 > 0:49:31woman who is not concerned with her appearance he wears a simple
0:49:31 > 0:49:35headband would be unacceptable in public life. So she did for people
0:49:35 > 0:49:41seemed to want, she had her style, added reached blonde, then she was
0:49:41 > 0:49:43criticised for being manipulative, she was trying to manipulate her
0:49:43 > 0:49:50image and here, already, you see this suspicion of she is not
0:49:50 > 0:49:53authentic. Well think was authentic they did not like that either and I
0:49:53 > 0:49:57think that's emblematic of what she faced going forward.
0:49:57 > 0:49:59A clip there from a documentary on political authenticity that airs
0:49:59 > 0:50:01on Radio Four at 8.30 tonight.
0:50:01 > 0:50:03It's presented by the political scientist Professor Rosie Campbell,
0:50:03 > 0:50:09who joins us now...
0:50:09 > 0:50:13What makes a politician authentic? An extremely good question.Good,
0:50:13 > 0:50:18glad I asked it. Trying to work it out, you describe it as a slippery
0:50:18 > 0:50:23concept, seems to be a mixture of things, sometimes we think of
0:50:23 > 0:50:25authenticity as consistency, sticking with policies over a long
0:50:25 > 0:50:28period but it gets mixed up with being related book or sounding like
0:50:28 > 0:50:34a normal person.And that is my problem, when people say
0:50:34 > 0:50:38authenticity, is it about conviction politics and principles? Jeremy
0:50:38 > 0:50:41Corbyn would say he has stuck to principles, Jacob Rees Mogg might
0:50:41 > 0:50:46say he is upended because he has to to political principles. Is it that
0:50:46 > 0:50:50more in your mind than it is about the late ability, about how someone
0:50:50 > 0:50:54looks and response and that sort of thing?I think at its core are
0:50:54 > 0:50:58perhaps that is what we are looking for, people have lost trust and
0:50:58 > 0:51:02faith in politicians to some extent reticular Lee after the expenses
0:51:02 > 0:51:05scandal and they are looking for some kind of integrity and I think
0:51:05 > 0:51:09that sticking to your principles over time as part of that. I'm not
0:51:09 > 0:51:14sure I totally agree with you over Jeremy Corbyn, has he softened
0:51:14 > 0:51:17slightly on Europe and nuclear disarmament? There are other things
0:51:17 > 0:51:20he does that seem to signal to people he is an authentic politician
0:51:20 > 0:51:27that is perhaps not so much about his policies.You think Jeremy
0:51:27 > 0:51:31Corbyn has stuck to his principles but in reality that has not been the
0:51:31 > 0:51:35case, he has smartened up his appearance, he wears the suit, he is
0:51:35 > 0:51:40losing some of his authenticity in order to be at Westminster?I don't
0:51:40 > 0:51:46think he's losing any of that authenticity, his position on Europe
0:51:46 > 0:51:49as James, Germany and I would be in the same lobby, we are not in the
0:51:49 > 0:51:53same lobby now, someone has changed. It may be difficult in academic
0:51:53 > 0:51:59circles to decide who is genuine and who is authentic, it does not appear
0:51:59 > 0:52:05the voters have much difficulty in actually deciding that and I think
0:52:05 > 0:52:13the study or to begin with voters. You are doing... LAUGHTER leprosy
0:52:13 > 0:52:16respond.Voters seem to have, if you as Conservative voters who is the
0:52:16 > 0:52:20most honest and trustworthy many more of them will say Mr macro than
0:52:20 > 0:52:24Labour voters and if you look at the number of Conservative voters who
0:52:24 > 0:52:28think that Jeremy Corbyn is an authentic guy will find that guy is
0:52:28 > 0:52:31-- number is much smaller, voters are no better than we academics at
0:52:31 > 0:52:37this.There is a positive bias but the judgement comes through quite
0:52:37 > 0:52:41clearly that they can spot authenticity.But even if they can
0:52:41 > 0:52:47spot authenticity isn't politics about compromise? Isn't it about
0:52:47 > 0:52:54backroom and being pragmatic. Banks it could be the most explosive
0:52:54 > 0:52:59current example of all bad.-- Brexit. I feel quite concerned
0:52:59 > 0:53:03about, if we don't allow politicians to change their mind in a considered
0:53:03 > 0:53:07and reflected way over a period of time in politics won't actually,
0:53:07 > 0:53:11democracy won't function. I don't think it necessarily means
0:53:11 > 0:53:14politicians should change their mind on the same day...Or twice a day?
0:53:14 > 0:53:21Can you faith fake authenticity?I am not sure you can, I think the
0:53:21 > 0:53:25voters have an antenna for it, which are duly younger voters who
0:53:25 > 0:53:29described Jeremy Corbyn as appendix. A fascinating programme I did back
0:53:29 > 0:53:34at party Conference, they said that, I think authenticity is in the year
0:53:34 > 0:53:38of the beholder, they know someone is authentic not without being able
0:53:38 > 0:53:43to put their finger on it. I would propose it's about able setting out
0:53:43 > 0:53:47what they believe in and saying it as they think it is and I think the
0:53:47 > 0:53:51trouble actually with a lot of coverage of modern politics
0:53:51 > 0:53:54particularly as a minister, it's a nightmare coming on a Daily Politics
0:53:54 > 0:53:59scummy you have a government line, you might have use of your own, a
0:53:59 > 0:54:04clever interviewer will say I know how to get it out of them and you
0:54:04 > 0:54:08spend yourself and your time getting into linguistic contortions.That's
0:54:08 > 0:54:12what people seem to think is a bad thing about politics. Let's show you
0:54:12 > 0:54:16and viewers this tweet about Donald Trump, saying it how it is is what
0:54:16 > 0:54:20he is seemingly famous for but...
0:54:25 > 0:54:30That's authentic, is a popular? I think that's the problem with the ID
0:54:30 > 0:54:34of authenticity, it's slippery. On Trump has changed his mind about
0:54:34 > 0:54:38policy a great wheel. But being able to seem relatable and to connect
0:54:38 > 0:54:44with people, that's actually one way that we pick up one intensity I
0:54:44 > 0:54:51think sometimes we voters to get it wrong, despite what you say, Frank.
0:54:51 > 0:54:55The other point, you can't run as Nicky was saying, the House of
0:54:55 > 0:54:59Commons depends on people faithfully voting for or against government,
0:54:59 > 0:55:03that's how you for them to account, you can't have 650 authentic
0:55:03 > 0:55:08politicians!That may be true. Rosi, thank you.
0:55:08 > 0:55:11Now - its chimes were briefly heard again over the weekend to mark
0:55:11 > 0:55:12Remembrance Sunday.
0:55:12 > 0:55:14Big Ben is undergoing a multi-million pound renovation
0:55:14 > 0:55:15programme and Channel Four have secured exclusive
0:55:15 > 0:55:16access to the work.
0:55:16 > 0:55:19In a moment we'll be joined by the historian, Dr Anna Keay,
0:55:19 > 0:55:23who presents the programme.
0:55:23 > 0:55:29One of my favourite bits in any big conservation project is when the
0:55:29 > 0:55:32roof comes off, it's like the skeleton of a foil, an amazing
0:55:32 > 0:55:36thing, you feel it you never normally get to see. It's going to
0:55:36 > 0:55:40be a once in a 100 and your opportunity to see the bare bones of
0:55:40 > 0:55:45the thing.The top of the tower is going to be stripped down into its
0:55:45 > 0:55:53original frame. Its giant hands over four metres long, removed. The four
0:55:53 > 0:55:57phases, each one large enough to drive a double-decker bus through,
0:55:57 > 0:56:06will be taken apart. And 2567 cast an roof tiles and other parts
0:56:06 > 0:56:11restored. One of the world's best-known buildings is about to
0:56:11 > 0:56:12become unrecognisable.
0:56:12 > 0:56:18And Anna Keay who's the director of Landmark Trust joins me now.
0:56:18 > 0:56:24Why does this work have to be done? Because this is a great want list
0:56:24 > 0:56:27building, 150 odd years old and if we care about it we wanted to still
0:56:27 > 0:56:31be there in time and we need to look after, it's standing there in the
0:56:31 > 0:56:36elements, acid rain, wind, any thing that any building has two content
0:56:36 > 0:56:40with and it has eroded over time. The top section is cast-iron, we
0:56:40 > 0:56:44know what happens to metal, trusts and if you go and stand behind the
0:56:44 > 0:56:52clock faces you can pick the ire of. Really? And it needs a lot of TLC.
0:56:52 > 0:56:57That TLC, how difficult is it to find people who have skills to
0:56:57 > 0:57:00restore this iconic building?That's a big issue across all historic
0:57:00 > 0:57:05buildings in this country, we see it in my work, it's all very well
0:57:05 > 0:57:08saying you want to do this stuff, unless you can find a stonemason who
0:57:08 > 0:57:13knows how to deal with a bit of exploded limestone from 1850, it's
0:57:13 > 0:57:17all talk. It's a big task and it is a tall order on this building
0:57:17 > 0:57:21because it's so big, it's not just a small number of people come all you
0:57:21 > 0:57:25need a kind of an army to deal with that.You need a whole team at it
0:57:25 > 0:57:29for the duration? Yes. The cost of the work has doubled is that good
0:57:29 > 0:57:35value for money, Nicky Morgan?Of course not but the work has to be
0:57:35 > 0:57:39done, it's a major landmark, you see all the tourists, people come to
0:57:39 > 0:57:43look at it, I have constituents who bring international visitors and
0:57:43 > 0:57:46they say I want to come and look of this amazing thing. Of course you
0:57:46 > 0:57:50have to keep a look on the costs but are we weighing up the massive
0:57:50 > 0:57:55earner that is economically from people coming to look at big den,
0:57:55 > 0:57:59the Houses of Parliament and other London landmarks?Your predecessor
0:57:59 > 0:58:03started an inquiry on the total renovation which will cost £4
0:58:03 > 0:58:07billion, will continue?The inquiry? We will look at it but we are
0:58:07 > 0:58:11waiting at the moment and over the next steps are going to be from the
0:58:11 > 0:58:15government. The House of Commons authorities are taking a time to
0:58:15 > 0:58:21consider for we are going. Have you missed the chiming? It wasn't there,
0:58:21 > 0:58:25I didn't know something you do but if you're very close to it, and you
0:58:25 > 0:58:29are on the phone, it's a nightmare. Sorry but we will have to end it
0:58:29 > 0:58:31there.
0:58:31 > 0:58:35There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
0:58:35 > 0:58:37The question was according to Michel Barnier what could be
0:58:37 > 0:58:40stopped from crossing the border if the Brexit negotiations fail ...
0:58:40 > 0:58:42a) Wine b) Pets c) Eurocrats or d) Cheese.
0:58:42 > 0:58:48So what's the correct answer?
0:58:48 > 0:58:52It is Eurocrats. I thought it was all of them.
0:58:52 > 0:58:53That's all for today.
0:58:53 > 0:58:54Thanks to our guests.
0:58:54 > 0:58:56The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now.
0:58:56 > 0:58:59I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big political stories
0:58:59 > 0:59:00of the day...
0:59:00 > 0:59:01do join me then.
0:59:01 > 0:59:04Bye bye.