0:00:37 > 0:00:40Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42As the deadline looms, negotiations over a Brexit deal grind on,
0:00:42 > 0:00:45with the EU demanding more progress on the terms of Britain leaving
0:00:45 > 0:00:48before allowing talks on trade, we'll speak to the Vice President
0:00:48 > 0:00:53of the European Parliament.
0:00:53 > 0:00:55Theresa May has said building more homes is her 'personal mission',
0:00:55 > 0:00:58so how will the Government find the money and will they be prepared
0:00:58 > 0:01:04to take on local opposition?
0:01:04 > 0:01:07Labour is demanding an emergency budget to fund a public sector pay
0:01:07 > 0:01:09rise, provide more money for infrastructure, and increase
0:01:09 > 0:01:10spending on public services.
0:01:10 > 0:01:18We'll ask a member of their Treasury team where the cash will come from.
0:01:18 > 0:01:20And forget left and right in politics, there's a new fault
0:01:20 > 0:01:22line between the somewheres and the anywheres, find out
0:01:22 > 0:01:25which side you're on.
0:01:32 > 0:01:34All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole
0:01:34 > 0:01:36of the programme today, the author and commentator
0:01:36 > 0:01:37David Goodhart.
0:01:37 > 0:01:40He works for the think-tank Policy Exchange, and is the author
0:01:40 > 0:01:42of the Road to Somewhere, more of which later.
0:01:42 > 0:01:46Welcome to the show.
0:01:46 > 0:01:51First this morning, universal credit is back on the agenda after reports
0:01:51 > 0:01:54in the press that the Government was preparing to cut the length
0:01:54 > 0:01:58of time claimants have to wait before they receive payments.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01It's currently six weeks, but Theresa May has come under a lot
0:02:01 > 0:02:04of pressure to reduce the time, including from some of her own MPs.
0:02:04 > 0:02:06Yesterday, during PMQs, Jeremy Corbyn yet again attacked
0:02:06 > 0:02:09Mrs May over the benefit.
0:02:09 > 0:02:14Will the Prime Minister pause Universal Credit so it can be fixed?
0:02:14 > 0:02:18Or does she think it is right to put thousands of families
0:02:18 > 0:02:22through Christmas in the trauma of knowing they're about to be
0:02:22 > 0:02:26evicted, because they're in rent arrears, because of Universal
0:02:26 > 0:02:29Credit?
0:02:29 > 0:02:34SPEAKER:Prime Minister.
0:02:34 > 0:02:36Can I say to the right honourable gentleman that there have
0:02:36 > 0:02:39been concerns raised, there have been concerns raised
0:02:39 > 0:02:41in this House previously over the issue of people
0:02:41 > 0:02:44managing their budgets to pay rent.
0:02:44 > 0:02:47But what we actually see...
0:02:47 > 0:02:51What we see is that over...
0:02:51 > 0:02:53We see that after four months, the number of people
0:02:53 > 0:02:59on Universal Credit in arrears has fallen by a third.
0:02:59 > 0:03:04Has the Government response on Universal Credit been adequate?I
0:03:04 > 0:03:07don't think we've heard the full response so far, and I think we are
0:03:07 > 0:03:11told we will hear something in the budget about this. Pretty well
0:03:11 > 0:03:15everybody agrees that the principles behind it are good ones, bringing
0:03:15 > 0:03:20together lots of different benefits, simplifying, helping to reduce a
0:03:20 > 0:03:24little bit the cliff edges, those huge poverty traps that a lot of
0:03:24 > 0:03:29people suffer from. The problem is implementation, and it always is.
0:03:29 > 0:03:34Tax credits was the same problem, going back to Labour in power. You
0:03:34 > 0:03:39get the feeling that the people who design these benefits are not
0:03:39 > 0:03:41experience the understanding the experience of the people who claim
0:03:41 > 0:03:46them.The critics said that people who work on benefits do not work on
0:03:46 > 0:03:52a monthly or six weekly cycle, and lots of people have been forced into
0:03:52 > 0:03:55arrears or forced to go to the banks. If the Government says it
0:03:55 > 0:03:59will shorten the waiting time from six weeks to five weeks, possibly to
0:03:59 > 0:04:05a month, will that be enough to answer and deal with real problems
0:04:05 > 0:04:12are suffering?I don't know, I'm not an expert. The amount of money in
0:04:12 > 0:04:16the whole system has been substantially reduced over recent
0:04:16 > 0:04:20years. George Osborne used it as a cash cow, so putting more money in
0:04:20 > 0:04:25will surely help.You would like to see the amounts go up as well as the
0:04:25 > 0:04:29waiting time brought down to help people who are on this benefit?
0:04:29 > 0:04:35Absolutely.Otherwise, you think the policy's success has been put at
0:04:35 > 0:04:39risk by the Government dragging its feet, as critics say, other not
0:04:39 > 0:04:42doing anything about the fermentation?I think it is starting
0:04:42 > 0:04:46to do something about it. The Government has already moved on
0:04:46 > 0:04:50paying for the phone call and a help line and so on. These are minor
0:04:50 > 0:04:53adjustments that surely can be made, but I think that putting more money
0:04:53 > 0:04:56into the pot is the major priority.
0:04:56 > 0:04:58Now, it's time for our daily quiz.
0:04:58 > 0:05:00The question for today is, which senior minister -
0:05:00 > 0:05:02according to The Times - has apparently been
0:05:02 > 0:05:06showing off in Cabinet, using lots of technical terms
0:05:06 > 0:05:08and "long, economicky words" to audition for the role of Chancellor?
0:05:08 > 0:05:12Was it a) Andrea Leadsom audition for the role of Chancellor?
0:05:12 > 0:05:16Was it a) Andrea Leadsom c) Liam Fox or d)
0:05:16 > 0:05:20Was it a) Andrea Leadsom or d)
0:05:20 > 0:05:21Gavin Williamson?
0:05:21 > 0:05:24At the end of the show, David will give us
0:05:24 > 0:05:25the correct answer.
0:05:25 > 0:05:27We've heard a lot about the arguments surrounding the EU
0:05:27 > 0:05:30withdrawal bill being scrutinised in the Commons over the last few
0:05:30 > 0:05:32days, but where are we with the actual negotiations
0:05:32 > 0:05:34between the Britain and the EU?
0:05:34 > 0:05:37The European Union has three red lines -
0:05:37 > 0:05:41a financial settlement, citizens' rights and
0:05:41 > 0:05:44the Northern Irish border - that have to be resolved before
0:05:44 > 0:05:49talks can progress on the UK's final status deal.
0:05:49 > 0:05:52At the last round of negotiations earlier this month, the EU gave
0:05:52 > 0:05:57the UK a two-week deadline to clarify key issues and for talks
0:05:57 > 0:05:59to progress.
0:05:59 > 0:06:01Both sides agreed there had been progress on the issue
0:06:01 > 0:06:04of settled status for EU citizens in the UK after Brexit.
0:06:04 > 0:06:06On the financial settlement, the EU still wants clarity
0:06:06 > 0:06:11from the UK in terms of what it's willing to pay to meet financial
0:06:11 > 0:06:15commitments made as a member.
0:06:15 > 0:06:16The UK has said it "will honour
0:06:16 > 0:06:18commitments" but has not specified whether that includes unpaid
0:06:18 > 0:06:24liabilities for projects, or if that will cover pensions.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27The issue of the Irish border between Northern Ireland and Ireland
0:06:27 > 0:06:29remains a serious challenge, both sides say, with "frank
0:06:29 > 0:06:32discussions" continuing.
0:06:32 > 0:06:34David Davis has rejected suggestions that Northern Ireland
0:06:34 > 0:06:37could have a separate status from the rest of the UK and remain
0:06:37 > 0:06:43within the European customs union.
0:06:43 > 0:06:46He wants to "prevent a hard border" and told House of Commons
0:06:46 > 0:06:49in September he was confident the use of technology "will make it
0:06:49 > 0:06:54possible for the border to be as light-touch as it is today."
0:06:54 > 0:06:56The UK's Brexit Secretary has played down the two-week deadline,
0:06:56 > 0:06:58saying the key date is the December European
0:06:58 > 0:07:04Council, on the 14th.
0:07:04 > 0:07:07Let's get more on this with Adam Fleming, who is at his
0:07:07 > 0:07:13favourite haunt in Brussels, the European Parliament.
0:07:13 > 0:07:19I was listening to the MEP Manfred Weber yesterday. He was here, and a
0:07:19 > 0:07:22close colleague of Angela Merkel, and he seemed to think that the mood
0:07:22 > 0:07:25was more optimistic, that he felt that the conversation was positive
0:07:25 > 0:07:31with Theresa May, but still no green light. What is the mood in Brussels?
0:07:31 > 0:07:34Manfred Weber was interesting, as you were saying, because he because
0:07:34 > 0:07:38he said he had been given the impression that the UK was prepared
0:07:38 > 0:07:46to make some movement towards the EU, in other words, to secure
0:07:46 > 0:07:48sufficient progress at the next summit in December so that phase two
0:07:48 > 0:07:52of the Brexit talks can begin, to discuss trade, the relationship and
0:07:52 > 0:07:54the transition deal. Everyone wondered what the Prime Minister
0:07:54 > 0:07:59said to him. The big theory at the moment is that it was probably to do
0:07:59 > 0:08:05with citizens' rights, because that is the European Parliament's main
0:08:05 > 0:08:08priority for the Brexit negotiations. They are less
0:08:08 > 0:08:11concerned about the money and the Northern Irish border than they are
0:08:11 > 0:08:18about peoples lives after Brexit. I saw him do a conference the day
0:08:18 > 0:08:21before in Strasbourg where he said he was pessimistic and didn't think
0:08:21 > 0:08:26that sufficient progress would be made. Obviously, Theresa May said
0:08:26 > 0:08:28something to him which made him change his mind and feel more
0:08:28 > 0:08:38chipper about how the process was going.Do you think, and is the
0:08:38 > 0:08:42impression in Brussels, that it will be enough to unlock these
0:08:42 > 0:08:45negotiations or the stalemate and move on to trade talks at that
0:08:45 > 0:08:49critical meeting in December? Everyone here is waiting for some
0:08:49 > 0:08:55sort of smoke signal, hint, lying in a speech, paragraph in a written
0:08:55 > 0:09:00ministerial statement, an answer in an interview with David Davis or the
0:09:00 > 0:09:03Prime Minister that gives more detail about what the UK meant when
0:09:03 > 0:09:06the Prime Minister said in her Florence speech a couple of months
0:09:06 > 0:09:10ago that the UK would live up to its financial obligations. The Brits
0:09:10 > 0:09:15thought that was enough to get them over the line and get into phase two
0:09:15 > 0:09:18of the talks, but for the EU side, that was not enough. They welcomed
0:09:18 > 0:09:22the warm words and the sentiments that the UK would live up to its
0:09:22 > 0:09:26obligations made as a member, but they want more detail, specific
0:09:26 > 0:09:30commitments being made to specific things they have asked for in the
0:09:30 > 0:09:34discussions over the so-called financial settlement, or the Brexit
0:09:34 > 0:09:39Bill, as it is known in the press. That is what everyone is waiting
0:09:39 > 0:09:43for. And then we come back to this issue of the Michel Barnier deadline
0:09:43 > 0:09:46that he has issued. He said last Friday that he wanted that detail to
0:09:46 > 0:09:51be given in the next two weeks. The reason he said that was because of
0:09:51 > 0:10:02the admin processes that the EU 27 going, that to be able to start and
0:10:02 > 0:10:05trigger the talks in December, they need a bit more information on the
0:10:05 > 0:10:08UK in the next couple of weeks so they control what documents and have
0:10:08 > 0:10:13their talks with the 27 capitals. The content they want is more
0:10:13 > 0:10:17information about the money.Adam, in Brussels, no doubt we will speak
0:10:17 > 0:10:18soon.
0:10:18 > 0:10:20Earlier this morning, I spoke to the Irish
0:10:20 > 0:10:22MEP and Vice President of the European Parliament Mairead
0:10:22 > 0:10:25McGuinness, and I began by asking her whether we should be
0:10:25 > 0:10:27optimistic about possible progress in the Brexit negotiations.
0:10:27 > 0:10:29It's positive what my group leader Manfred Weber has said,
0:10:29 > 0:10:33and I think that's welcome if he's getting an indication that the UK
0:10:33 > 0:10:35and that Prime Minister May may be moving to unlock this problem
0:10:35 > 0:10:40at the moment.
0:10:40 > 0:10:43You can't have a green light now, because the negotiations have not
0:10:43 > 0:10:46moved on on the three core issues, so I think that it's
0:10:46 > 0:10:47quite consistent.
0:10:47 > 0:10:50I'm a bit more hopeful today as I speak to you than I might
0:10:50 > 0:10:51have been 24 hours ago.
0:10:51 > 0:10:54But then that has been the way these negotiations have developed.
0:10:54 > 0:10:56There are some weeks where you think yes,
0:10:56 > 0:10:58we're getting there, and then there are other weeks,
0:10:58 > 0:11:00mainly because of the mood music in the United Kingdom,
0:11:00 > 0:11:03where we feel quite the opposite and we get quite concerned,
0:11:03 > 0:11:13but in fact we aren't making sufficient progress
0:11:13 > 0:11:15--that in fact we aren't making sufficient progress
0:11:15 > 0:11:16on the core issues.
0:11:16 > 0:11:19But it's not a one-way street, is it, Mairead McGuinness?
0:11:19 > 0:11:21And as you have now reiterated Manfred Weber's comments that
0:11:21 > 0:11:24you feel there is movement on the UK side, what is the European Union
0:11:24 > 0:11:26offering in this negotiation if there's been movement
0:11:26 > 0:11:27from the UK?
0:11:27 > 0:11:30Well, I think you're quite right, nobody has ever said this
0:11:30 > 0:11:31was a one-way street.
0:11:31 > 0:11:33What it is is a divorce settlement.
0:11:33 > 0:11:35The United Kingdom democratically have decided to leave
0:11:35 > 0:11:36the European Union.
0:11:36 > 0:11:38There are three issues for phase one in the divorce settlement,
0:11:38 > 0:11:40including financial commitments, citizens' rights, and the border
0:11:40 > 0:11:42issue, which is very core to my constituency.
0:11:42 > 0:11:45And I think on many of these issues the European Union has been
0:11:45 > 0:11:49absolutely clear on what it needs to see happen, and we do need
0:11:49 > 0:11:52the content of the Prime Minister's speech in Florence,
0:11:52 > 0:11:54which we all welcomed, to be put into concrete
0:11:54 > 0:11:56proposals on the table.
0:11:56 > 0:11:58And then I think there is room for negotiation,
0:11:58 > 0:12:02because Michel Barnier, who leads the negotiations on behalf
0:12:02 > 0:12:05of the European Union, is a very able individual
0:12:05 > 0:12:08and he wants to make progress.
0:12:08 > 0:12:10I think David Davis comes with the same commitment.
0:12:10 > 0:12:16But clearly there is some problem, and I have to repeat my concern
0:12:16 > 0:12:18that it appears to come from, if you like, difficulties
0:12:18 > 0:12:21within the Conservative Party.
0:12:21 > 0:12:24I see front-page headlines targeting individual MPs,
0:12:24 > 0:12:28and this doesn't help the process of progress that we all want to see.
0:12:28 > 0:12:29Let's talk about the Irish border.
0:12:29 > 0:12:32As you say, very important to you particularly.
0:12:32 > 0:12:35To avoid a hard border, which all sides want,
0:12:35 > 0:12:37the European Commission has proposed Northern Ireland having a separate
0:12:37 > 0:12:40status from the rest of the UK and remaining in the customs union.
0:12:40 > 0:12:42That's been ruled out by the UK Government.
0:12:42 > 0:12:48What other solution do you have?
0:12:48 > 0:12:51Well, I've been very clear, and I've said this to Secretary
0:12:51 > 0:12:53of State Brokenshire recently, and I'm saying it again,
0:12:53 > 0:12:57that if we want the situation on the island of Ireland to remain
0:12:57 > 0:12:59as it is today, without any borders or difficulties,
0:12:59 > 0:13:04then we stay as we are today.
0:13:04 > 0:13:07By that I mean that we respect the decision of the United Kingdom
0:13:07 > 0:13:10to leave the European Union, but that the United Kingdom
0:13:10 > 0:13:11stays in the customs union and single market.
0:13:11 > 0:13:14So that, if you like, avoids any complexities looking
0:13:14 > 0:13:17for technical solutions, because I've tried to
0:13:17 > 0:13:19make this very clear...
0:13:19 > 0:13:21But that's been ruled out, hasn't it?
0:13:21 > 0:13:25But with the greatest of respect to red lines and ruling out,
0:13:25 > 0:13:27this is a much bigger issue.
0:13:27 > 0:13:30This is about the peace process in the country I come from.
0:13:30 > 0:13:34This will affect very badly the constituents that I serve.
0:13:34 > 0:13:37They are deeply traumatised by the prospect of a hard Brexit.
0:13:37 > 0:13:41Why is having a border so important to you in terms of customs?
0:13:41 > 0:13:44I'm sorry, I think I misunderstood your question.
0:13:44 > 0:13:50We do not want a border, it's very clear that if there's any
0:13:50 > 0:13:53idea of a break in the current relationships or freedoms that exist
0:13:53 > 0:13:58on the island of Ireland today, it will cause problems.
0:13:58 > 0:14:02And if you come to my region, I welcome you to come and be
0:14:02 > 0:14:04with me in the region, you will see posters,
0:14:04 > 0:14:09you will hear people talking with deep concern.
0:14:09 > 0:14:12I met young people in Newry from North and South just last
0:14:12 > 0:14:14Friday, listen to their voices, they know the problems
0:14:14 > 0:14:16they will face if this goes wrong.
0:14:16 > 0:14:19So, again, I welcome the idea that there might be
0:14:19 > 0:14:21some light this week, and I think that's positive.
0:14:21 > 0:14:24But I have to be frank on the island of Ireland question,
0:14:24 > 0:14:27and I think there's been an attempt by some to say you can't give
0:14:27 > 0:14:30Northern Ireland, or break it off from the United Kingdom,
0:14:30 > 0:14:33and I wouldn't dream of attempting to do that.
0:14:33 > 0:14:36I respect things as they are.
0:14:36 > 0:14:38Which makes me come back to my core point.
0:14:38 > 0:14:41The United Kingdom should remain in the customs union to avoid
0:14:41 > 0:14:44a problem on the island of Ireland, and then we can move
0:14:44 > 0:14:46to the wider trade issues, which I have to say are deeply
0:14:46 > 0:14:48of concern to me as well.
0:14:48 > 0:14:51So I think we have to marry the political and economic,
0:14:51 > 0:14:54and I think we have to work very hard politically to find a solution
0:14:54 > 0:14:55which doesn't damage us.
0:14:55 > 0:14:58Because Brexit, in my view, has the capacity to damage both sides,
0:14:58 > 0:15:02and we have to avoid that at all costs.
0:15:02 > 0:15:07Mairead McGuinness, thank you.
0:15:07 > 0:15:10Well, listening to that is the former Secretary of State
0:15:10 > 0:15:12for Northern Ireland, Owen Paterson, who was a leading
0:15:12 > 0:15:16campaigner for Brexit.
0:15:16 > 0:15:21There seems to be a disconnect here. Mairead McGuinness said the UK
0:15:21 > 0:15:25should stay inside the customs union and the single market, and then all
0:15:25 > 0:15:29the problems about Northern Ireland and the border go away. But that
0:15:29 > 0:15:33hasn't been what the government has been proposing. Who's not been
0:15:33 > 0:15:37listening in this discussion?You have to recognise there is an
0:15:37 > 0:15:41election coming up in the Republic of Ireland. A lot of this is stated
0:15:41 > 0:15:45with a view to certainly keeping up to the mark with Sinn Fein or
0:15:45 > 0:15:50putting gait pushing a strong campaign on this. I think the Dublin
0:15:50 > 0:15:55establishment is running scared. It is extremely obvious from what the
0:15:55 > 0:15:58pro minister has said we're going to leave the single market, customs
0:15:58 > 0:16:02union and European Court of Justice. Biggest weight to destabilise
0:16:02 > 0:16:05Northern Ireland is to have a crazy suggestion of a border downbeat
0:16:05 > 0:16:13Irish Sea. I've been going to Northern Ireland for nearly ten
0:16:13 > 0:16:17years now nearly every week. There is a border this morning. There's a
0:16:17 > 0:16:23currency board, a VAT border, a tax border. I haven't had a single
0:16:23 > 0:16:27business say to me the border presents a problem. This is all
0:16:27 > 0:16:31solvable with modern technology. There are other MEPs who have stated
0:16:31 > 0:16:36in fairly agitated terms that there has to be some way of checking goods
0:16:36 > 0:16:40that may come in from third countries through into Britain and
0:16:40 > 0:16:45Northern Ireland. Where would that check be?It happens now. 1 million
0:16:45 > 0:16:49tonnes of goods go across UK roads into the Republic of Ireland every
0:16:49 > 0:16:55year, we never see them.But we are all part of the EU at this point in
0:16:55 > 0:16:58time. When we come out of the EU where with those checks be? How
0:16:58 > 0:17:04would you resolve this?This is all done on electronic systems. The
0:17:04 > 0:17:08World Bank did a check and they reckon less than 2% of goods are
0:17:08 > 0:17:15physically checked. These goods are well-established. North - South
0:17:15 > 0:17:19business is about 5% of Northern Ireland's sales. You have been
0:17:19 > 0:17:22slight authorised economic operators. The milk tankers that
0:17:22 > 0:17:29take milk, there's probably one of two operators and it's very easy to
0:17:29 > 0:17:33license them.They disagree. They say technology cannot deal with the
0:17:33 > 0:17:38issue as it is, hence they've made this suggestion of a border in the
0:17:38 > 0:17:42Irish Sea that would obviously separate Northern Ireland from
0:17:42 > 0:17:47Britain. Britain has rejected that, but that is an option. As is staying
0:17:47 > 0:17:51in the customs union.But that is not going to happen. We have voted
0:17:51 > 0:17:55to leave. We are going to leave the customs union, the single market and
0:17:55 > 0:18:02the ECJ. When you look at the budget showing the massive advantages,
0:18:02 > 0:18:08every family across the UK is going to be £300 better off by having
0:18:08 > 0:18:11cheaper food and clothing. That helps every single disadvantaged
0:18:11 > 0:18:16family.It still doesn't solve this issue. She didn't sound as if she
0:18:16 > 0:18:21was willing to compromise in any way when it comes to trying to deal with
0:18:21 > 0:18:25the border issue between Northern Ireland and Ireland. Apart from the
0:18:25 > 0:18:28technological solution you have, is there anything else you have in your
0:18:28 > 0:18:34pocket to try and unlock this part of the negotiations?It needs some
0:18:34 > 0:18:37goodwill on behalf of the new Irish government. Enda Kenny would have
0:18:37 > 0:18:41been more reasonable about this. The government are running scared of
0:18:41 > 0:18:45Sinn Fein and running ahead of this. That is the problem. There has to be
0:18:45 > 0:18:52good will and a half of the Irish government. There was a report a ago
0:18:52 > 0:18:55by both houses of the Irish government and they said we want to
0:18:55 > 0:18:59keep the Common travel area and easy movement of goods and services.On
0:18:59 > 0:19:03the money, it was clear from that interview that Mairead McGuinness
0:19:03 > 0:19:07and Manfred Weber said yesterday they want concrete proposals from
0:19:07 > 0:19:11the Florence speech. The hints of more money being offered by the UK
0:19:11 > 0:19:15Government. Michael Gove sort of said in the interview last week that
0:19:15 > 0:19:20that is what the British government should do. Is he right?It's
0:19:20 > 0:19:22extraordinary to be talking about money now before we know what the
0:19:22 > 0:19:29end arrangement is.Would you be prepared to do it?The House of
0:19:29 > 0:19:32Lords committee say there are no legal obligations if we leave now.
0:19:32 > 0:19:38We should come to the arrangement and then see what we own. There will
0:19:38 > 0:19:41be things like Horizon and programmes we will carry on. If
0:19:41 > 0:19:44there are legally binding obligations we will pay them.How
0:19:44 > 0:19:48would you react if Theresa May says before December we are putting
0:19:48 > 0:19:52another 20 billion year raised or pounds on the table?I think that
0:19:52 > 0:19:59would be and why is. So far the European Union has trousered every
0:19:59 > 0:20:05one of her concessions. She made a most generous speech in Florence. We
0:20:05 > 0:20:10should give them two weeks and say we assume you aren't going to talk
0:20:10 > 0:20:13about the end economic relationship. If you don't agree, we will assume
0:20:13 > 0:20:20we are going to WTO terms.So no Deal.It's not no deal. Much better
0:20:20 > 0:20:23would be to have reciprocal free trade with no tariffs. If they come
0:20:23 > 0:20:27back and talk to us about that that would be a much better solution.You
0:20:27 > 0:20:32say it would be unwise, would you do anything?She's been very generous,
0:20:32 > 0:20:35I wouldn't give any more concessions.Mairead McGuinness
0:20:35 > 0:20:40mentioned it was division within the Conservative Party that is actually
0:20:40 > 0:20:43a problem as far as these negotiations are concerned. Does she
0:20:43 > 0:20:49have a point?Only a partial point. Looking at the bigger picture at the
0:20:49 > 0:20:52moment, we have this extraordinary situation in which we voted for
0:20:52 > 0:20:57Brexit but we didn't vote for any particular kind of Brexit. So the
0:20:57 > 0:21:01government and the half of itself, on behalf of the Conservative Party
0:21:01 > 0:21:05and the whole country, is having a semipublic negotiation about what
0:21:05 > 0:21:09kind of Brexit we want, while at the same time negotiating it. So it is
0:21:09 > 0:21:14bound to look messy. I think we already have the outlines some kind
0:21:14 > 0:21:21of. People behind their hands with say I've heard on good authority
0:21:21 > 0:21:25that Michel Barnier Binks the Irish border issue is soluble. I mean,
0:21:25 > 0:21:32that is so much an issue of political will that the Swiss
0:21:32 > 0:21:35minister was before a select committee the other day saying
0:21:35 > 0:21:39precisely that. There are technical solutions to these things, it
0:21:39 > 0:21:42requires political will. Nobody wants to see a hard border
0:21:42 > 0:21:49returning.Let's talk about the Telegraph singling out Tory MPs as
0:21:49 > 0:21:53Brexit mutineers. Was that helpful? I suppose it makes them think about
0:21:53 > 0:21:57what they're doing because of them have clear beliefs about this. There
0:21:57 > 0:22:02is political consequence of this that they could possibly jeopardise
0:22:02 > 0:22:06the bill, which is extraordinary as most of them voted for Article 50
0:22:06 > 0:22:10which set a very clear two-year deadline. Personally I think having
0:22:10 > 0:22:14the date is a good idea because we've got to bring compression to
0:22:14 > 0:22:17the commission to start proper talks about the end relationship. We all
0:22:17 > 0:22:23ideally want reciprocal free trade with zero tariffs. It's ridiculous
0:22:23 > 0:22:27they aren't talking about that. Having a date puts pressure on them.
0:22:27 > 0:22:31We have to take a serious decision, if they aren't going to talk about
0:22:31 > 0:22:36this we have to decide we will assume we are going to the WTO.So
0:22:36 > 0:22:39you see them as being obstructive and you would describe them in terms
0:22:39 > 0:22:44that they are not being patriotic? This is a pretty boring bill. All
0:22:44 > 0:22:53this is doing is... And it's an idea I pushed four years ago. Turn the
0:22:53 > 0:22:58whole corpus of European law into UK law. Is what we did when we left
0:22:58 > 0:23:01India, when we left Australia. It's what the colony of Virginia did
0:23:01 > 0:23:05before the revolution.But they don't like it, the point is they
0:23:05 > 0:23:11aren't going to bite fitted.So you could get up at 3am and run an
0:23:11 > 0:23:15abattoir, you have to have a framework of law.If it looks like
0:23:15 > 0:23:21you are facing defeat, what should be done?There's a couple more weeks
0:23:21 > 0:23:25until we have the vote. This actually is a pretty boring techie
0:23:25 > 0:23:32Bill converting EU law into UK law. Thank you.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35It's believed housing could be one of the big themes of next week's
0:23:35 > 0:23:38budget as the government tries to give more of us a leg up
0:23:38 > 0:23:39onto the housing ladder.
0:23:39 > 0:23:41Theresa May has said it is her "personal mission that
0:23:41 > 0:23:44Britain builds more homes more quickly" although how this will be
0:23:44 > 0:23:45done is still unclear.
0:23:45 > 0:23:47Earlier today Sajid Javid, the Communities Secretary gave
0:23:47 > 0:23:50what was dubbed a major speech on housing and said
0:23:50 > 0:23:51although progress had been made this year,
0:23:51 > 0:23:55with over 200,000 new homes built, much more was needed.
0:23:55 > 0:24:00217,000 net additions means 217,000 more people or families
0:24:00 > 0:24:06with a roof over their heads.
0:24:06 > 0:24:13217,000 places where people can put down roots and build their life.
0:24:13 > 0:24:16But fixing the broken housing market will require a much larger effort.
0:24:16 > 0:24:21The figures that have been released today show that we have started
0:24:21 > 0:24:27to turn things around, but they are only a small step,
0:24:27 > 0:24:30I believe, in the right direction.
0:24:30 > 0:24:34What we now need is a giant leap.
0:24:34 > 0:24:37We asked to speak to a housing minister or a Government
0:24:37 > 0:24:41representative, but none was available.
0:24:41 > 0:24:43Joining me instead is the Conservative MP Chris Philp,
0:24:43 > 0:24:45and the property developer and television
0:24:45 > 0:24:48presenter Sarah Beeny.
0:24:48 > 0:24:55Welcome. Chris Philp, George Osborne famously said "We are the party of
0:24:55 > 0:25:00builders". When you look at the figures, you haven't been, have you?
0:25:00 > 0:25:06We have made enormous progress. When Labour were in office they completed
0:25:06 > 0:25:14125,000 houses...When was that? 2009-10. We are now up to 217,000
0:25:14 > 0:25:19completions this year. It's almost doubled. However as Sajid Javid said
0:25:19 > 0:25:25it's not enough. We need to do more. We need to be building 250 or maybe
0:25:25 > 0:25:29even 300,000 housing units a year to catch up with a deficit of housing
0:25:29 > 0:25:32that Labour left behind. A lot of progress but there's more to do.
0:25:32 > 0:25:36Except you've been in power for the last seven years and you've still
0:25:36 > 0:25:40not reached that 250,000 target that your own white Paper says is
0:25:40 > 0:25:44required. You're still short of it this year and been way of it for the
0:25:44 > 0:25:50last seven.We are slightly short. It's been steadily increasing.A
0:25:50 > 0:25:54very low bar.That's why the government has committed £9 billion
0:25:54 > 0:25:58to social housing which is a staggeringly large sum of money...
0:25:58 > 0:26:02How many extra homes will the £2 billion that Theresa May announced
0:26:02 > 0:26:07before the speech, it worked out of how many?The package as a whole is
0:26:07 > 0:26:12£9 billion. That isn't the anything we are doing. The housing White
0:26:12 > 0:26:15Paper last year is designed to help free up the planning system. I think
0:26:15 > 0:26:19next week in the budget we will hear more.What would you like to hear in
0:26:19 > 0:26:27the budget on housing?I think I'd like to see really more thought, a
0:26:27 > 0:26:33lot more thought put into Howell, instead of building houses where
0:26:33 > 0:26:38there is too much demand at the moment, why don't we really try and
0:26:38 > 0:26:43consider spreading people out across the country and building houses...
0:26:43 > 0:26:47The problem I have is there's a massive concentration of people
0:26:47 > 0:26:50living in the south-east which we all know. Building more houses in
0:26:50 > 0:26:57the south-east isn't going to bring house prices down. What we have is
0:26:57 > 0:27:01an affordability problem. It's not a housing shortage, it's affordable
0:27:01 > 0:27:07housing shortage.There is a housing shortage to.Is there really?In
0:27:07 > 0:27:11terms of demand in London and the south-east and people moving jobs,
0:27:11 > 0:27:15isn't there a shortage as well as an affordability problem?There is an
0:27:15 > 0:27:18argument that if there was a shortage of housing you wouldn't be
0:27:18 > 0:27:22able to find a house for sale and if you look online there are lots of
0:27:22 > 0:27:25houses for sale. There's a shortage of houses that people can afford to
0:27:25 > 0:27:31buy. What we are really talking about is a house price issue not a
0:27:31 > 0:27:35shortage of actual houses.Do you agree in terms of building homes
0:27:35 > 0:27:38away from the concentrations like London and the south-east where they
0:27:38 > 0:27:42have traditionally been built in large numbers?We do need to spread
0:27:42 > 0:27:45housing around. We need to make sure our northern cities are being
0:27:45 > 0:27:52invested in. Things like the Northern Power has project and HS2.
0:27:52 > 0:27:56I think there is a supply issue as well as an affordability issue. We
0:27:56 > 0:28:01need to be creative about where we build. We need to make sure every
0:28:01 > 0:28:06spare piece of brown field is built on. Transport for London have 6000
0:28:06 > 0:28:12acres Brownfield land.It is expensive to access that.It can be.
0:28:12 > 0:28:15There is £2 billion designed to unlock it. It may be expensive but
0:28:15 > 0:28:19we need to grip the problem and get on with it and build on that land
0:28:19 > 0:28:23because houses are so badly needed. I would like to see any public land
0:28:23 > 0:28:28that is ever sold, our land that we all own, when it sold I would like
0:28:28 > 0:28:34to see it only being sold at... The problem is the price it ends up
0:28:34 > 0:28:41being worth means that people are forced to build houses that and
0:28:41 > 0:28:46affordable. Why can't we cap affordable house prices and make
0:28:46 > 0:28:49house prices stay affordable permanently? When we sell public
0:28:49 > 0:28:54land it can only ever be built on with houses that are affordable and
0:28:54 > 0:28:58stay affordable.That's an idea I've heard and we should look at doing
0:28:58 > 0:29:02that. I am excited about the possibility of bringing forward more
0:29:02 > 0:29:08public sector land. Network Rail have lots of land, the MoD...What
0:29:08 > 0:29:11about affordability? When people talk about affordable housing and
0:29:11 > 0:29:15you look at prices of new homes, they aren't affordable really,
0:29:15 > 0:29:19certainly not to a first-time buyer unless you've got a great big
0:29:19 > 0:29:22deposit or the bank of mum and dad. The help to buy scheme is designed
0:29:22 > 0:29:27to give people a boost to their mortgage. They only require a 5%
0:29:27 > 0:29:33deposit. Generally speaking you are right. Pricing is a function of
0:29:33 > 0:29:37supply and demand. There is massive demand and not enough supply. That's
0:29:37 > 0:29:41why prices are so high. The root cause of this is increasing supply.
0:29:41 > 0:29:45That's what the housing White Paper and budget next week will do.I
0:29:45 > 0:29:50think Sarah has a point. Britain has two infrastructure problems. In
0:29:50 > 0:29:53London and the south-east it is housing or housing affordability. In
0:29:53 > 0:29:57the Midlands and the north it is transport infrastructure. It's not
0:29:57 > 0:30:03even say much about the big project, Northern Powerhouse, but it's about
0:30:03 > 0:30:07the little links. The connection between Burnley and Lancashire. I
0:30:07 > 0:30:12spoke to Yvette Cooper who said there is only one train from her
0:30:12 > 0:30:16constituency into Leeds every day. If the great Northern and midland
0:30:16 > 0:30:23towns revive even more than they have done already, if they continue
0:30:23 > 0:30:27to grow and flourish, and they will do, then we can sort out some of
0:30:27 > 0:30:31those infrastructure links and the pressure of people coming down to
0:30:31 > 0:30:36the south-east will be relieved partly.
0:30:36 > 0:30:39on that issue, without transport links, can you build those homes
0:30:39 > 0:30:43elsewhere in the country if there are isolated pockets aren't well
0:30:43 > 0:30:46served by transport links?There are a lot of affordable homes already
0:30:46 > 0:30:51that nobody can get, so we don't necessarily need to build more
0:30:51 > 0:30:55homes, we just need to get the people to the homes, and that means
0:30:55 > 0:30:58the infrastructure, it needs the jobs there, the schools and
0:30:58 > 0:31:02hospitals, and that will stop the concentration. If you invest in
0:31:02 > 0:31:07business outside London, where the houses are, then the people will
0:31:07 > 0:31:11follow the jobs.In terms of land you could build on, builders like
0:31:11 > 0:31:16green belt - should it be built on more?It is precious and it improves
0:31:16 > 0:31:21the quality of life for people who live on the edge of large cities,
0:31:21 > 0:31:26including my own constituents in Croydon South.Isn't that the
0:31:26 > 0:31:30problem, councils in constituencies such as yours will block this?Green
0:31:30 > 0:31:34belt covers a large area, and you could look to see if there are bits
0:31:34 > 0:31:39that are not what you and I would imagine and do an audit of that. You
0:31:39 > 0:31:44could also build higher in the centre of town. Croydon town centre
0:31:44 > 0:31:49is an ideal place to go up 20 or 30 stories, and it is very accessible
0:31:49 > 0:31:53because the station has fantastic links. The point Sarah made about
0:31:53 > 0:31:57transport links is important, and if we invest more in transport links
0:31:57 > 0:32:00that bring people into those northern cities like Manchester and
0:32:00 > 0:32:05Leeds, that will help.Should the Government borrowed significant
0:32:05 > 0:32:14amounts of money to do it?It is doing it already. We have a £35
0:32:14 > 0:32:19billion capital spending programme. There is Crossrail. We are building
0:32:19 > 0:32:22HS2, one of the biggest high-speed rail projects in the world. And we
0:32:22 > 0:32:27are spending on affordable housing. Is it enough or should they be
0:32:27 > 0:32:33spending more?Or allowing local authorities to borrow more or
0:32:33 > 0:32:36encouraging housing associations and local authorities. One bit of the
0:32:36 > 0:32:40housing market that works well is student accommodation. Student halls
0:32:40 > 0:32:44of residence are going up across the country all the time, so it is
0:32:44 > 0:32:55clearly possible to do.Councils - are they an obstruction?The
0:32:55 > 0:32:58planning system is actually have gone backwards. I would like to see
0:32:58 > 0:33:06individuals being ... It being much simpler to get planning permission.
0:33:06 > 0:33:09In the process has been made much harder for individuals and much more
0:33:09 > 0:33:14complicated than it used to be. Another thing I would love to see
0:33:14 > 0:33:19years, you used to be able to go to your local authority and ask the
0:33:19 > 0:33:24planning department whether you were likely to get planning for something
0:33:24 > 0:33:29or not, and now you need to pay for that, which pushes away individuals
0:33:29 > 0:33:32from perhaps doing development because they have to pay for advice.
0:33:32 > 0:33:36I think that's crazy if we actually want people to... We are better off
0:33:36 > 0:33:42with people doing building work individually rather than just a
0:33:42 > 0:33:45developers. Individuals actually employ people who live locally, and
0:33:45 > 0:33:49that's good, gets the world moving. Thank you to both of you for coming
0:33:49 > 0:33:53in, and we will no doubt hear more about housing in the budget.
0:33:53 > 0:33:56Next week, we need an emergency budget to save our public services,
0:33:56 > 0:33:57according to Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.
0:33:57 > 0:34:00This morning he's made five demands to the Chancellor, Philip Hammond,
0:34:00 > 0:34:02including more cash to public services and serious
0:34:02 > 0:34:04infrastructure funding, all to be funded by more borrowing.
0:34:04 > 0:34:13Here's a flavour of what he had to say.
0:34:13 > 0:34:18Cuts to public spending damage the whole of society. And when a
0:34:18 > 0:34:22Government, as the Tories did, cut research funding by £1 billion, it
0:34:22 > 0:34:29has real economic consequences. When they cut investment spending by
0:34:29 > 0:34:33nearly 20 billion, it has an impact on business. Investment in the UK is
0:34:33 > 0:34:39the third lowest of any major developed economy, head of only
0:34:39 > 0:34:44Portugal and Greece. Public spending on transport is the very lowest at
0:34:44 > 0:34:50the developed economies. Without the investment, you don't get the new
0:34:50 > 0:34:54equipment and technology that can sustain growth. It means skilled
0:34:54 > 0:34:58people and those with talent and ideas across the whole country are
0:34:58 > 0:35:02not realising their potential. And businesses cannot grow as they
0:35:02 > 0:35:04should.
0:35:04 > 0:35:10Listening to that is the Shadow Treasury Minister Anneliese Dodds.
0:35:10 > 0:35:14She is here with me now. How much money can labour guarantee it will
0:35:14 > 0:35:20be able to extract from the big corporations and the super-rich?In
0:35:20 > 0:35:24our manifesto, we set out very clearly the fact that, for example,
0:35:24 > 0:35:28we felt that £70 billion was being squandered on tax cuts through
0:35:28 > 0:35:33corporation tax and for the very richest earners as well, by altering
0:35:33 > 0:35:36the system for the highest earners. We think that money could be much
0:35:36 > 0:35:42better spent on growth- promoting investment, like that that John was
0:35:42 > 0:35:45talking about.Can you guarantee that you will get that kind of
0:35:45 > 0:35:49money? It is a big pot of money you are talking about, but when you look
0:35:49 > 0:35:53at the detailing your manifesto and the costings, you are relying on
0:35:53 > 0:35:58more money coming from tax avoidance that you think is still out there,
0:35:58 > 0:36:02and getting that guaranteed stream of revenue year-on-year.There will
0:36:02 > 0:36:08be debate about some of the detail, I accept, but Labour set all the bat
0:36:08 > 0:36:11out at the general election. The Conservatives didn't. The only
0:36:11 > 0:36:15numbers in their manifesto were the page numbers. We set up where the
0:36:15 > 0:36:18money would come from, and there has been a debate about elements of it,
0:36:18 > 0:36:24which is healthy. We encourage that. We feel, on the fundamentals, yes,
0:36:24 > 0:36:27we absolutely can pay for these investments, and we think we have to
0:36:27 > 0:36:31because we are doing so badly as a country now when it comes to
0:36:31 > 0:36:42investment. We have to deal with it radically.Do you agree that the
0:36:42 > 0:36:44country is doing badly and so needs this emergency injection of cash,
0:36:44 > 0:36:47which is really just based on their manifesto?The country is growing
0:36:47 > 0:36:50less fast than it might be. Obviously there is the Brexit
0:36:50 > 0:36:54shadow. We are still in a slow recovery path from the financial
0:36:54 > 0:37:02crisis. But yes, we have historically been a short-term
0:37:02 > 0:37:06economy in terms of private investment. We have never been big
0:37:06 > 0:37:10investors. Anyway that governments can help stimulate that is surely a
0:37:10 > 0:37:15good thing. There is a complete cross-party consensus on bringing
0:37:15 > 0:37:20money in from tax avoidance. All parties have always agreed, and I
0:37:20 > 0:37:27think you may be slightly a victim of your own ideology that the Tory
0:37:27 > 0:37:30Party are protecting their super-rich friends. It is nonsense.
0:37:30 > 0:37:34If it was easy to get money out of corporations and rich individuals, I
0:37:34 > 0:37:39think any Government would have done it. Elements talk about it and try
0:37:39 > 0:37:42to do it.I sat through the debates around the Finance Bill that we have
0:37:42 > 0:37:47just had. There were some very well thought through measures that Labour
0:37:47 > 0:37:50was arguing for is part of those debates of which the Government
0:37:50 > 0:37:53refused to accept, measures that are in place in countries very similar
0:37:53 > 0:37:57to Britain. You have to acknowledge, we have a specific UK problem that
0:37:57 > 0:38:01isn't afflicting other economies. We are the only growing economy where
0:38:01 > 0:38:06people's living standards haven't been increasing.Let's pick up on
0:38:06 > 0:38:12that issue. The unions have called for a 3.9% pay rise to some parts,
0:38:12 > 0:38:16or all parts, I think a the public sector, particularly now that the
0:38:16 > 0:38:20Government has signalled an end to the freeze. The user pot that?We
0:38:20 > 0:38:24think there should be rises in line with inflation, but ultimately it
0:38:24 > 0:38:29should be the pay review bodies that possess that.They are guided by
0:38:29 > 0:38:33governments, and presuming that you were the Government, would you be
0:38:33 > 0:38:37advising 3.9% pay rises, as the unions have said, because you say
0:38:37 > 0:38:46you want it to be above inflation? We had a load of these discussions,
0:38:46 > 0:38:49and even in this chair at the time, when this came up in front of
0:38:49 > 0:38:52Parliament. We said we think the pay review bodies need to be freed from
0:38:52 > 0:38:54the shackles they have. They need to look at recruitment challenges. If
0:38:54 > 0:38:58they end up saying, you need a rise of that magnitude to deal with
0:38:58 > 0:39:04recruitment... I don't want to say a figure, which I think would be
0:39:04 > 0:39:08artificial.People will want to know what you are proposing, and what you
0:39:08 > 0:39:12would support, so all I'm asking is, would you be prepared, whether it is
0:39:12 > 0:39:17the pay review bodies that will suggest it, freed from the shackles,
0:39:17 > 0:39:22as you describe, would labour be prepared to back that level of pay
0:39:22 > 0:39:26rise?The point is, we don't want this politicised in the way the
0:39:26 > 0:39:38Government has made it. We think that pay has to
0:39:38 > 0:39:41keep in line with costs, and we want the independent pay review bodies to
0:39:41 > 0:39:44do that. We set out how we would pay for it, some months ago, and unless
0:39:44 > 0:39:47we get a grip on this, we will see the situation continuing come off
0:39:47 > 0:39:55when nurses have to have a second job.It might help with retention.
0:39:55 > 0:39:59How much would it cost?The Government's own figures said they
0:39:59 > 0:40:07thought they would save £5 billion over format years. It is 1.25
0:40:07 > 0:40:13billion every year, in practice, to get us towards the direction we are
0:40:13 > 0:40:27travelling in. -- over foul-mac years. -- over four. Some people are
0:40:27 > 0:40:30leaving professions because they are not paid enough.A lot of the things
0:40:30 > 0:40:33being talked about by yourself and John McDonnell would not be just
0:40:33 > 0:40:39borrowing to invest, it would be a lot of extra public spending, on
0:40:39 > 0:40:43schools, health, public sector pay, children's services, and that would
0:40:43 > 0:40:46be current, day-to-day spending, wouldn't it?Where we need
0:40:46 > 0:40:51additional spending, that is sensible. It's not like we are in a
0:40:51 > 0:40:54situation at the moment where the Government hasn't increased
0:40:54 > 0:40:58spending. If you look at spending on some of the areas of benefits, it
0:40:58 > 0:41:02has been going up because people's incomes have been going down. I
0:41:02 > 0:41:07don't think we should suggest that currently the Government hasn't
0:41:07 > 0:41:12increased spending. It has.But we are talking about labour, and I am
0:41:12 > 0:41:15saying that your current day-to-day spending would go up to paper the
0:41:15 > 0:41:19things you want to do.Yes, but we have explained where that will come
0:41:19 > 0:41:25from. We try to beat transparent about it.In terms of welfare, the
0:41:25 > 0:41:28Shadow Chancellor talked about children in poverty and poverty in
0:41:28 > 0:41:33general, but labour is only committed to reversing one third of
0:41:33 > 0:41:37the Government's £12 billion welfare cuts. If it is so desperate, why
0:41:37 > 0:41:42aren't you reversing all of them? When it comes to Universal Credit,
0:41:42 > 0:41:46this new approach to benefits, packaging five into one, it is not
0:41:46 > 0:41:50just about the spending levels but about getting that system to work. I
0:41:50 > 0:42:01think it wouldn't be
0:42:03 > 0:42:06sensible at this stage to say, right, we will totally change that
0:42:06 > 0:42:08system again. We have had so much change.So not all of the welfare
0:42:08 > 0:42:11cuts have been a bad thing? You are not going to reverse more than a
0:42:11 > 0:42:14third, as you say.We need to have a review of Universal Credit. There
0:42:14 > 0:42:17are things that can be done now to make that system worked far better,
0:42:17 > 0:42:20for example, the fact that the work allowance has been cut means that
0:42:20 > 0:42:22you are not better off in work than you would have been under the
0:42:22 > 0:42:25original plans.Isn't this the point at this time as Labour is
0:42:25 > 0:42:30indicating, that austerity, to use the word that was used by the
0:42:30 > 0:42:34Conservatives, that it is time to end it and reset the narrative on
0:42:34 > 0:42:40the economy and spent on the public sector?I think they can take their
0:42:40 > 0:42:45foot off the pedal a bit. In 2009-10, the deficit was 10% of GDP
0:42:45 > 0:42:51or something, and it is now down to 2-3%. We are moving in the right
0:42:51 > 0:42:59direction. The total public debt to GDP is just about hitting 90%.It is
0:42:59 > 0:43:04about 88.I think they have to still talk tough up to a point, but I
0:43:04 > 0:43:08think they can and probably will take their foot off the pedal.But
0:43:08 > 0:43:11you have some sympathy for the Labour position?Yes, but the
0:43:11 > 0:43:15problem is that if you go rapidly in the other direction, you build up
0:43:15 > 0:43:22the stock of debt. You might quote Japan at me. Japan has 220% of GDP
0:43:22 > 0:43:27as public debt, but it is a high saving country. All of the people
0:43:27 > 0:43:32who lend money to the Government are Japanese, and nearly one third of
0:43:32 > 0:43:37our public debt is in foreign hands. They will stop supporting Britain
0:43:37 > 0:43:42and you will have a 1981 Francois Mitterrand situation. You will have
0:43:42 > 0:43:49to do a U-turn.You should agree that we should not just be looking
0:43:49 > 0:43:53at spending but at revenue as well. If you look at the falls in revenue,
0:43:53 > 0:43:57because of low pay and because of cuts the corporation and the highest
0:43:57 > 0:44:01rates of income tax, if we reverse that, we can build up revenue, which
0:44:01 > 0:44:07is a sustainable way of getting to the place we want.Lope has fallen
0:44:07 > 0:44:17for the first time in 15 years.It depends -- low pay. It depends how
0:44:17 > 0:44:19you calculate it.We will have to end it there.
0:44:19 > 0:44:22Not that long ago Labour in Scotland dominated the political landscape
0:44:22 > 0:44:25in a way that today they can only dream of, both in
0:44:25 > 0:44:26Edinburgh and London.
0:44:26 > 0:44:29Now however they face an SNP government that's been in power
0:44:29 > 0:44:31for ten years and a resurgant Scottish Conserative party
0:44:31 > 0:44:32under Ruth Davidson.
0:44:32 > 0:44:34Under this backdrop the Scottish Labour Party
0:44:34 > 0:44:35are electing a new leader.
0:44:35 > 0:44:37Here's Elizabeth Glinka with more.
0:44:37 > 0:44:42MUSIC: "Needle in a Haystack" by The Velvelettes.
0:44:42 > 0:44:45If Scottish Labour was on a dating website, its status might
0:44:45 > 0:44:47read "it's complicated".
0:44:47 > 0:44:50There have been five leaders since 2008.
0:44:50 > 0:44:53When Kezia Dugdale took over in 2015 it was described
0:44:53 > 0:44:56as the worst job in politics.
0:44:56 > 0:45:03Now, another new leader is due to be announced this weekend.
0:45:03 > 0:45:05This is a classic contest in the Labour Party
0:45:05 > 0:45:07between the left and the right.
0:45:07 > 0:45:10Richard Leonard is the left candidate backed by the Corbynistas,
0:45:10 > 0:45:12although he's not a Corbynista himself, he's an old-fashioned
0:45:12 > 0:45:17trade unionist.
0:45:17 > 0:45:19His younger opponent Anas Sarwar is much better known.
0:45:19 > 0:45:21He has the backing of more more parliamentarians
0:45:21 > 0:45:27than Richard Leonard, and he got off to a bad start.
0:45:27 > 0:45:30But since then he seems to have found his feet a bit.
0:45:30 > 0:45:34He may have found his feet, but the former MP and now MSP has
0:45:34 > 0:45:36faced some challenges.
0:45:36 > 0:45:41From his children's private education to his family's business.
0:45:41 > 0:45:43But meeting volunteers at this charity in Edinburgh,
0:45:43 > 0:45:45he bristled at the idea that he was the
0:45:45 > 0:45:46establishment candidate.
0:45:46 > 0:45:48It's fantastic.
0:45:48 > 0:45:50A 34-year-old from the West of Scotland, second generation
0:45:50 > 0:45:54migrant Muslim is now somehow the establishment.
0:45:54 > 0:45:57That shows you where our politics has got two in Scotland.
0:45:57 > 0:46:00I'm not the establishment's choice in this contest.
0:46:00 > 0:46:03I'm not someone who wants to fight for the status quo.
0:46:03 > 0:46:05I'm someone that recognises that our political system is broken,
0:46:05 > 0:46:09our economic system is broken, our social system is broken,
0:46:09 > 0:46:12and that's why we need radical, bold, but also credible change
0:46:12 > 0:46:15in our country.
0:46:15 > 0:46:17Meanwhile, his opponent who is vying to become the first Englishman
0:46:17 > 0:46:20to lead Scottish Labour, is keen to eschew the Corbynista
0:46:20 > 0:46:27tag, despite having senior Corbyn aides now running his campaign.
0:46:27 > 0:46:29I'm a bit long in the tooth to be a Corbynista.
0:46:29 > 0:46:32I've been a member of the Labour Party since the early 1980s.
0:46:32 > 0:46:35There are some similarities, dare I say, with Jeremy Corbyn
0:46:35 > 0:46:39in the sense that I've been pretty consistent.
0:46:39 > 0:46:42My views have been consistent, my political principles and values
0:46:42 > 0:46:47haven't really changed, and that is meant from time
0:46:47 > 0:46:52to time I've been a bit off message or out of fashion.
0:46:52 > 0:46:55But I've stuck to my views and I think that they are things
0:46:55 > 0:46:57that give authenticity and credibility to leadership.
0:46:57 > 0:46:59But this internal battle may seem a little academic when you remember
0:46:59 > 0:47:02that Labour is the third party in Scottish politics,
0:47:02 > 0:47:06behind the SNP and the resurgent Tories under Ruth Davidson.
0:47:06 > 0:47:09Whomever wins, they're going to have a real uphill struggle
0:47:09 > 0:47:11on their hands before the next Scottish Parliament
0:47:11 > 0:47:21elections in 2021.
0:47:21 > 0:47:24Both those candidates seem to define themselves against the SNP.
0:47:24 > 0:47:26And actually, for the Labour Party in Scotland right now,
0:47:26 > 0:47:27the problem is not the SNP.
0:47:27 > 0:47:31The problem is trying to get ahead of the Tories and Ruth Davidson.
0:47:31 > 0:47:33Richard Leonard or Anas Sarwar's big problem is going to be
0:47:33 > 0:47:36that they are up against two of the most formidable political
0:47:36 > 0:47:39operators not just in Scotland but in the UK scene.
0:47:39 > 0:47:42In the event of victory, both men have spoken with passion
0:47:42 > 0:47:44about uniting the party.
0:47:44 > 0:47:51We'll find out on Saturday who's been deemed Mr Right.
0:47:51 > 0:47:57I'm pleased to say Sarah Smith joins me now from Glasgow.
0:47:57 > 0:48:01Whoever wins, how much of a difference will it make to Labour's
0:48:01 > 0:48:06fortunes in Scotland?It will be very interesting to see if they can
0:48:06 > 0:48:11open up a different debate. You look at both of these candidates, they
0:48:11 > 0:48:16are broadly seen as left and right. Both of them have come up with more
0:48:16 > 0:48:19radical tax plans than Jeremy Corbyn's manifesto in the general
0:48:19 > 0:48:25election. Anas Sarwar is talking about a 50p top rate starting at
0:48:25 > 0:48:28£100,000 a year. Richard Leonard talks about a one-off windfall
0:48:28 > 0:48:36wealth tax on the better off in Scotland. What they hope is that by
0:48:36 > 0:48:40espousing policies more radical than those Jeremy Corbyn promotes, that
0:48:40 > 0:48:43they can create a new audience in Scotland. Maybe get some of the
0:48:43 > 0:48:47young people who are energised and excited by the idea of independence
0:48:47 > 0:48:51to come back and support the Labour Party.That's interesting because
0:48:51 > 0:48:55it's a difficult job. They are up against Nicola Sturgeon and Ruth
0:48:55 > 0:49:01Davidson.Yes, it is one of the toughest jobs there is in UK
0:49:01 > 0:49:04politics where the Labour Party is languishing in third place and
0:49:04 > 0:49:07you've got to really strong performers you have to try and go up
0:49:07 > 0:49:12against. What the Labour Party has to do is create the space for an
0:49:12 > 0:49:16argument between Nicola Sturgeon and Ruth Davidson. They haven't had much
0:49:16 > 0:49:19of a hearing, not necessarily because there's been anything wrong
0:49:19 > 0:49:23with their leader but because of a slightly confused position on the
0:49:23 > 0:49:27constitution. The SNP obviously in favour of independence, the Tories
0:49:27 > 0:49:32the staunch defenders of the UK. Labour desperately want to change
0:49:32 > 0:49:36the subject, talking about tax, benefits, poverty and inequality. If
0:49:36 > 0:49:43they can do that they might get a hearing.Sarah Smith, I always ask
0:49:43 > 0:49:46you to put your money on one of the candidates. Richard Leonard was
0:49:46 > 0:49:50always seen as the favourite. Is that still the case?He is still the
0:49:50 > 0:49:55favourite at the bookies. His camp appear more confident than Anas
0:49:55 > 0:50:02Sarwar's team. They have a lot of backing from the trade unions. Anas
0:50:02 > 0:50:05Sarwar's camp say a lot of new members of the Labour Party they
0:50:05 > 0:50:09believe have signed up to support him but their votes could be dwarfed
0:50:09 > 0:50:12by the union affiliates and registered supporters who presumably
0:50:12 > 0:50:17come in for Richard Leonard.
0:50:17 > 0:50:19Are you from somewhere, or anywhere?
0:50:19 > 0:50:22According to my guest of the day, your answer will put
0:50:22 > 0:50:25you on either one side, or the other of one of major fault
0:50:25 > 0:50:27lines running through politics.
0:50:27 > 0:50:30Those who are from somewhere are more rooted to where they live,
0:50:30 > 0:50:32value security and are troubled by high immigration.
0:50:32 > 0:50:34If you're from anywhere you're more mobile, better paid and more
0:50:34 > 0:50:37comfortable with immigration.
0:50:37 > 0:50:40It's a split that crosses political parties, although in last year's
0:50:40 > 0:50:42party conference speech Theresa May embraced the idea, and left people
0:50:42 > 0:50:45in no doubt which side she was on.
0:50:45 > 0:50:48That spirit that means recognising the social contract that says
0:50:48 > 0:50:50you train up local young people before you take on cheap
0:50:50 > 0:50:58labour from overseas.
0:50:58 > 0:51:01That spirit that means you do as others do and pay
0:51:01 > 0:51:02your fair share of tax.
0:51:02 > 0:51:03But today...
0:51:03 > 0:51:11APPLAUSE.
0:51:11 > 0:51:16But today, too many people in positions of power behave
0:51:16 > 0:51:18as though they have more in common with international elites
0:51:18 > 0:51:21than with the people down the road, the people they employ,
0:51:21 > 0:51:25the people they pass on the street.
0:51:25 > 0:51:27But if you believe you're a citizen of the world,
0:51:27 > 0:51:31you're a citizen of nowhere.
0:51:31 > 0:51:33You don't understand what the very word "citizenship" means.
0:51:33 > 0:51:34Theresa May there in 2016.
0:51:34 > 0:51:38Well, to discuss this we're joined by The Guardian columnist
0:51:38 > 0:51:41Jonathan Freedland - and our guest of the day
0:51:41 > 0:51:47David Goodhart has long had an interest in these issues.
0:51:47 > 0:51:51You used to be part of the liberal metropolitan elite as you would
0:51:51 > 0:51:56describe yourself, what changed?I became interested in questions of
0:51:56 > 0:52:01national identity and immigration. I wrote a book about immigration a few
0:52:01 > 0:52:06years ago. I think I started to see the world from a slightly different
0:52:06 > 0:52:12perspective. I had assumed, like so many people of my generation growing
0:52:12 > 0:52:16up in the 60s and 70s, going to university, I assumed that the
0:52:16 > 0:52:21liberal litany was not only righteous but was the way for the
0:52:21 > 0:52:28future. You have two, obviously all sensible people believe in openness,
0:52:28 > 0:52:32autonomy, self-realisation. It gradually dawned on me that very
0:52:32 > 0:52:34large sections of our population have completely different world
0:52:34 > 0:52:38view. That doesn't mean to say they are xenophobic or bad people. Some
0:52:38 > 0:52:43of them may be. But many people want basic, simple things. Stable
0:52:43 > 0:52:47communities, secure borders, national citizen rights before
0:52:47 > 0:52:53universal rights. They want decent outcomes for people who don't go to
0:52:53 > 0:52:57university, decent narratives for young kids who are not popping off
0:52:57 > 0:53:04to universities. These basic things, that seemed not any longer to be
0:53:04 > 0:53:08part of the centre-left agenda. That made me change my mind on some of
0:53:08 > 0:53:13these things.Do you think the definition of somewhere and anywhere
0:53:13 > 0:53:16is helpful in terms of understanding the social trends or politics in the
0:53:16 > 0:53:20UK?
0:53:20 > 0:53:24It's a useful tool and been braced by a lot of people. I don't think
0:53:24 > 0:53:29the nowhere category was helpful. In the context of leaf and remain it
0:53:29 > 0:53:37essentially delegitimised Remainers and conjured up the notion of
0:53:37 > 0:53:40rootless cosmopolitan Zaza citizens of nowhere, which is in idea with a
0:53:40 > 0:53:50bad history. I think the categories are to bald. Some of the trace hear
0:53:50 > 0:53:54tributes to somewhere for example in community cohesion and valuing
0:53:54 > 0:53:58communal bonds, I think some of the most anywhere parts of the country
0:53:58 > 0:54:03exhibit those traits. Grenfell Tower is once again in the news rightly
0:54:03 > 0:54:07and Finsbury Park after that terror attack. You saw communities of
0:54:07 > 0:54:10diverse people coming together and showing exactly the bonds of
0:54:10 > 0:54:15community your model Mania tributes to somewhere.Minority communities
0:54:15 > 0:54:21are often the most rooted and grounded. The growth of the British
0:54:21 > 0:54:25minority population acts as a bridge in some ways between the anywhere
0:54:25 > 0:54:30worldview and the somewhere worldview. Jonathan and others have
0:54:30 > 0:54:35made the reasonable point, and in the introduction to my paperback
0:54:35 > 0:54:43edition of the book I acknowledge that. I'm not saying that anywheres
0:54:43 > 0:54:48citizens of nowhere. They are not just an elite. This is something I
0:54:48 > 0:54:53keep emphasising. The educated and mobile, and it's such an important
0:54:53 > 0:54:57link in this country because of residential universities partly.
0:54:57 > 0:55:02People who have achieved identities. They passed exams, went to good
0:55:02 > 0:55:06universities, have more or less successful careers. Those people
0:55:06 > 0:55:10constitute a quarter of the population. If you look at the value
0:55:10 > 0:55:14and opinion data they are consistently there across everything
0:55:14 > 0:55:19from support for the EU to immigration and so on.They aren't
0:55:19 > 0:55:21automatically disconnected from what's around them.We saw that in
0:55:21 > 0:55:27the last election. The Bristol West, the Manchester within short. They
0:55:27 > 0:55:31aren't where they came from originally but they've made new
0:55:31 > 0:55:36communities.That was my point, largely, that they showed great
0:55:36 > 0:55:39qualities of community cohesion. The point about minorities is important.
0:55:39 > 0:55:46Part of what the somewheres bemoan is the idea that diversity has
0:55:46 > 0:55:51imperilled their lives. I think the model, as David describes it, buys
0:55:51 > 0:55:55into too much of that notion that minorities and diversity has
0:55:55 > 0:55:59imperilled that life. I think actually they exhibit just the kind
0:55:59 > 0:56:04of community bonds you would want, and therefore to cast newcomers and
0:56:04 > 0:56:08minority communities as somehow the crowd on the horizon is, I think,
0:56:08 > 0:56:13unhelpful and also at variance with the fact.Which I don't do. You used
0:56:13 > 0:56:19that phrase in your review of my book and there's no evidence I use
0:56:19 > 0:56:23that. It's to do with scale and pace of change.You say people object to
0:56:23 > 0:56:26their communities being changed to rapidly by mass immigration so you
0:56:26 > 0:56:30are talking about the scale and pace of change. Has immigration been bad
0:56:30 > 0:56:37for society?It's been good and bad. For many people it's been far too
0:56:37 > 0:56:41large and far too rapid. I think that's indisputable and is one of
0:56:41 > 0:56:46the reasons, probably the biggest single reason we are leading the
0:56:46 > 0:56:50European Union now, is because of the way that freedom of movement has
0:56:50 > 0:56:56operated. 1.5 million people came over five years and changed the face
0:56:56 > 0:57:01of many urban and suburban areas of the country. Just too fast.Do you
0:57:01 > 0:57:05think that is, in some people's mind, would be seen as
0:57:05 > 0:57:09anti-immigration or even perhaps racist?Some people would cast it
0:57:09 > 0:57:14that way. It's helpful if we can get beyond that. I think it's so hard to
0:57:14 > 0:57:19know that. So many of those communities have so many other
0:57:19 > 0:57:23problems. They've been left behind economically, social neglect, etc.
0:57:23 > 0:57:29The idea is certain that the change in immigration often in places that
0:57:29 > 0:57:32have experienced hardly any immigration, that that is the root
0:57:32 > 0:57:37of their problems. I agree it became central in the referendum.It's an
0:57:37 > 0:57:42emblem.It's an emblem of nostalgia and gloss. That is real but is it
0:57:42 > 0:57:47down to the fact society has got more diverse? I'm not sure.You come
0:57:47 > 0:57:52from Barnsley, 40 years ago you lived in one of the great coalfields
0:57:52 > 0:57:56of Western Europe. But now you see the national story has completely
0:57:56 > 0:58:00passed you by. The focus is entirely on the great metropolitan centres
0:58:00 > 0:58:04with their large minority population and you see that at a loss. You
0:58:04 > 0:58:10don't have to be xenophobic to feel a sense of loss.The sense of loss
0:58:10 > 0:58:13might be more of a shift from Barnsley to the metropolitan area
0:58:13 > 0:58:20and not because they've got more diverse.Who is more virtuous,
0:58:20 > 0:58:23somewheres or anywheres?Both worldviews are entirely did it, we
0:58:23 > 0:58:28have divine bridges between them -- are entirely legitimate.
0:58:28 > 0:58:31There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
0:58:31 > 0:58:34The question was which Cabinet minister has been showing off
0:58:34 > 0:58:36in Cabinet while trying to audition for the role of Chancellor?
0:58:36 > 0:58:38Was it Andrea Leadsom, Michael Gove, Liam Fox,
0:58:38 > 0:58:39or Gavin Williamson?
0:58:39 > 0:58:41So David, what's the correct answer?
0:58:41 > 0:58:44That is very easy because I read the Times, it is Michael Gove.Well
0:58:44 > 0:58:49done, you've got it! He did have a favourite phrase which I can't
0:58:49 > 0:58:51remember!
0:58:51 > 0:58:52That's all for today.
0:58:52 > 0:58:56Thanks to our guests.
0:58:56 > 0:58:58Andrew will be back tonight with This Week tonight.
0:58:58 > 0:59:01Bye bye.