0:00:47 > 0:00:50Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53More money is being offered by Theresa May to break the deadlock
0:00:53 > 0:00:55in the Brexit negotiations, but will it keep
0:00:55 > 0:00:59everyone happy at home?
0:00:59 > 0:01:02One key sticking point in the talks is the Northern Irish border.
0:01:02 > 0:01:04we'll speak to the Democratic Unionist Party on how
0:01:04 > 0:01:05a solution might be found.
0:01:05 > 0:01:08In case you hadn't realised, tomorrow is budget day.
0:01:08 > 0:01:10Many economists are warning more must be done to
0:01:10 > 0:01:11improve productivity.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14So what needs to be done to get the economy going?
0:01:14 > 0:01:15And the art of a good deal.
0:01:15 > 0:01:17Donald Trump says he's an expert at it.
0:01:17 > 0:01:18What about our own politicians?
0:01:18 > 0:01:27We'll look at how to get the best out of political negotiations.
0:01:27 > 0:01:29All that in the next hour.
0:01:29 > 0:01:30With us for the whole
0:01:30 > 0:01:33of the programme today is the DUP's deputy leader Nigel Dodds.
0:01:33 > 0:01:35Welcome to the show.
0:01:35 > 0:01:37First this morning, it appears Theresa May has managed
0:01:37 > 0:01:45to get her ministers to agree on something.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47What's more, it's concerning Brexit.
0:01:47 > 0:01:50At a special Brexit Cabinet meeting last night it was decided to offer
0:01:50 > 0:01:52more money to the European Union in order to break the
0:01:52 > 0:01:53deadlock in the talks.
0:01:53 > 0:02:01The proposal is conditional on the negotiations moving onto trade.
0:02:01 > 0:02:07Here is what David Davis said this morning. It is clear in negotiating
0:02:07 > 0:02:11rounds that we need to start talking about future negotiation
0:02:11 > 0:02:13relationships.The Northern Ireland border cannot be fully addressed if
0:02:13 > 0:02:16we don't take into account the future partnership with the European
0:02:16 > 0:02:20Union. The final resolution on financial settlement depends on it
0:02:20 > 0:02:23because nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. It might be a
0:02:23 > 0:02:28familiar phrase to some of you, and the future of Europe requires a
0:02:28 > 0:02:31satisfactory resolution to the critical economic issues at stake
0:02:31 > 0:02:34and we are ready to begin the conversation about the future
0:02:34 > 0:02:41partnership as soon as the European Union is.
0:02:41 > 0:02:47Do you support the agreement to up the offer of money to the EU to 40
0:02:47 > 0:02:51billion to unlock the negotiations? We've always supported the UK
0:02:51 > 0:02:54Government meeting obligations and commitments and we would like to see
0:02:54 > 0:02:59it set out, the commitments that we are legally obliged to pay, what are
0:02:59 > 0:03:02the pensions arrangements and what are the commitments in terms of the
0:03:02 > 0:03:07budget. We don't believe in paying for access to the single market.
0:03:07 > 0:03:11Other countries like the US do, so we don't see why we should. But this
0:03:11 > 0:03:14is a negotiation. And as I understand it no figure was
0:03:14 > 0:03:21discussed in Cabinet so I await with interest to see the way the
0:03:21 > 0:03:25negotiation takes place.What would you like to see upfront at this
0:03:25 > 0:03:29stage? The government, David Davis, have spoken about there being
0:03:29 > 0:03:34concrete proposals from the EU, a response before that money is given.
0:03:34 > 0:03:39What conditions would you like to see attached?I think we need a firm
0:03:39 > 0:03:43assurance we will move to the next phase of discussions on the trade
0:03:43 > 0:03:47deal that needs to happen because Northern Ireland, on the border
0:03:47 > 0:03:50issue, and on the financial settlement, as he said, and he's
0:03:50 > 0:03:54quite right, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed and we need to
0:03:54 > 0:03:59see the whole package in the round. Therefore the EU, and certainly the
0:03:59 > 0:04:03Irish, if they are encouraging the EU in this, they are doing
0:04:03 > 0:04:05themselves a great disservice by holding back talks on the trade
0:04:05 > 0:04:11deal.They say it is held back because the UK Government has not
0:04:11 > 0:04:13given on the divorce settlement. Do you think the offer should be on the
0:04:13 > 0:04:19table first before and taken on faith that Michel Barnier will move?
0:04:19 > 0:04:22The Prime Minister in the Florent speech put an offer on the table and
0:04:22 > 0:04:27clearly what is going on is a haggle for money and that is what it comes
0:04:27 > 0:04:30down to. Clearly Brussels would like to use the leverage of moving the
0:04:30 > 0:04:35trade deal to extract more money. The government is right to take a
0:04:35 > 0:04:39cautious approach. This is the biggest card we have to play and the
0:04:39 > 0:04:44EU will suffer a massive in the budget going forward, and it would
0:04:44 > 0:04:48be madness to commit a firm figure upfront in terms of the final deal
0:04:48 > 0:04:54at this stage.Are you happy to see a continued role for the European
0:04:54 > 0:04:57Court of Justice during the fermentation period?We are clear
0:04:57 > 0:05:01that as long as it is an implementation period with a fixed
0:05:01 > 0:05:08date for a final withdrawal, and we know it will happen in 2019 in
0:05:08 > 0:05:11March, but this implementation period, we take the view that
0:05:11 > 0:05:14whatever happens with the transition is a matter for negotiation and we
0:05:14 > 0:05:19will judge it and we are not doctrinally on the issue, as long,
0:05:19 > 0:05:23at the end of the day, after a defined period, we are free in terms
0:05:23 > 0:05:29of making our own laws, controlling borders and money. Those are the key
0:05:29 > 0:05:33issues for us.Would you entertain the idea of the ECJ continuing in
0:05:33 > 0:05:38some role, overseeing the rights of EU citizens in the UK beyond
0:05:38 > 0:05:41transition?I think that is a difficult one. I think we have voted
0:05:41 > 0:05:47to leave the EU and the jurisdiction of European law. To continue to have
0:05:47 > 0:05:51a role for the European Court of Justice in setting laws or rules
0:05:51 > 0:05:55about immigration, or whatever it might be, would be contrary to the
0:05:55 > 0:05:59expressed view of the people in the referendum.Is it a red line for
0:05:59 > 0:06:03you? We are careful when it comes to negotiations when it comes to read
0:06:03 > 0:06:07lines.All of it needs to be looked at in the round in terms of the
0:06:07 > 0:06:11overall package but we are clear that one of the objectives should
0:06:11 > 0:06:16clearly be getting rid of the European jurisdiction of the bodies
0:06:16 > 0:06:19there, including the European Court of Justice intervention in the
0:06:19 > 0:06:25affairs of the UK.It was decided that it was part of getting a good
0:06:25 > 0:06:32trade deal, would you not do it? Let's see the outcome.Is this an
0:06:32 > 0:06:36ideal time, bearing in mind what is happening in Germany and Angela
0:06:36 > 0:06:40Merkel's failure to create a coalition government, is this an
0:06:40 > 0:06:43ideal time to exploit German political weaknesses and withhold
0:06:43 > 0:06:49any more money?I think it is interesting what is going on because
0:06:49 > 0:06:53Germany is in an unprecedented position. But I think Angela Merkel
0:06:53 > 0:06:57is the Chancellor and she will give direction to Germany's input into
0:06:57 > 0:07:01the talks and in the relationship with Michel Barnier and all the rest
0:07:01 > 0:07:08of it. My view is that we need to be sensible about this. I think talking
0:07:08 > 0:07:13about exploiting Germany's weakness on the helpful.Could it work in the
0:07:13 > 0:07:17favour of the UK?We need to adopt a sophisticated approach to this by
0:07:17 > 0:07:22saying we are prepared to meet our obligations and commitments in the
0:07:22 > 0:07:25context of reciprocal guarantees, whether or not Angela Merkel is
0:07:25 > 0:07:29another minority position or a limbo position in terms of transitioning
0:07:29 > 0:07:34or whether she has a majority coalition or not.But is this an
0:07:34 > 0:07:38opportunity for the UK, her weakness?I am not sure that it
0:07:38 > 0:07:44necessarily will be, because at the end of the day Angela Merkel remains
0:07:44 > 0:07:47Chancellor and in charge of the negotiations.All right.
0:07:47 > 0:07:49Now it's time for our daily quiz.
0:07:49 > 0:07:51Yesterday saw the decision to relocate the European Medicines
0:07:51 > 0:07:53Agency to Amsterdam - after the European Banking Authority
0:07:53 > 0:07:55was confirmed to be moving to Paris.
0:07:55 > 0:07:57Both agencies will leave London after Brexit.
0:07:57 > 0:08:00But with stiff competition between EU cities and several rounds
0:08:00 > 0:08:02of voting, how was the deadlock on the European Medicines Agency
0:08:02 > 0:08:07eventually broken?
0:08:07 > 0:08:08Was it a coin toss?
0:08:08 > 0:08:10A tug of war?
0:08:10 > 0:08:11A game of rock-paper-scissors?
0:08:11 > 0:08:20Or a game of five-a-side?
0:08:20 > 0:08:23At the end of the show, Nigel will give us the correct answer.
0:08:23 > 0:08:25One of the big sticking points in the Brexit negotiations
0:08:25 > 0:08:28is the issue of what to do with the border in Northern Ireland.
0:08:28 > 0:08:30Currently there is an invisible border between Ireland
0:08:30 > 0:08:31and Northern Ireland.
0:08:31 > 0:08:34The European Union has said throughout negotiations there should
0:08:34 > 0:08:36be no return to a 'hard border' after Brexit.
0:08:36 > 0:08:40And the UK Government agrees - and has said it is also aiming
0:08:40 > 0:08:41for a deal which will avoid any physical
0:08:41 > 0:08:42infrastructure at the border.
0:08:42 > 0:08:46But the EU and Dublin doesn't see how that can work as the UK has
0:08:46 > 0:08:56committed to leaving the customs union and the single market.
0:09:00 > 0:09:02On Friday Irish Prime Minister, Leo Varadkar demanded a written
0:09:02 > 0:09:05commitment from the UK that there would be no hard border
0:09:05 > 0:09:07between the two countries, before trade talks can begin.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10And a recent European Commission paper implied the only way a hard
0:09:10 > 0:09:12border could be avoided was for Northern Ireland to remain
0:09:12 > 0:09:15inside, or as close to as possible, the EU customs union
0:09:15 > 0:09:17and single market.
0:09:18 > 0:09:21This would take the border off the island and place
0:09:21 > 0:09:23it in the Irish Sea - between the rest of the UK
0:09:23 > 0:09:25and Northern Ireland.
0:09:25 > 0:09:28The DUP, who support the Conservative on key issues, say
0:09:28 > 0:09:31a border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK
0:09:31 > 0:09:34is "just not acceptable".
0:09:34 > 0:09:37And Brexit Secretary David Davis has also rejected the proposals -
0:09:37 > 0:09:39saying he wants to preserve the constitutional and economic
0:09:39 > 0:09:42integrity of the United Kingdom.
0:09:43 > 0:09:50The UK Government and the DUP want to keep the border where it is.
0:09:50 > 0:09:53David Davis has suggested that a new, undefined customs arrangement
0:09:53 > 0:09:55using technology such as trusted trade schemes to create
0:09:55 > 0:10:05a 'light-touch' border, will avoid a hard border.
0:10:11 > 0:10:13Joining me now is the Shadow Northern Ireland
0:10:13 > 0:10:14Secretary Owen Smith.
0:10:14 > 0:10:19You said Northern Ireland could remain part of the EU so should it
0:10:19 > 0:10:26be in the sea?I agree with Brussels right now that the only way I can
0:10:26 > 0:10:29see us is practically avoiding the problem of the hardboard are coming
0:10:29 > 0:10:33back in Northern Ireland, between Northern Ireland and the Republic,
0:10:33 > 0:10:38and we concede that would be very damaging to the very difficult and
0:10:38 > 0:10:42hard-won peace process we have in Northern Ireland.Do you accept it
0:10:42 > 0:10:46is a solution?It is if you want to separate Northern Ireland from the
0:10:46 > 0:10:53rest of the UK and you think damage to the economy of Northern Ireland,
0:10:53 > 0:10:58and you believe in a project about following the EU position on the
0:10:58 > 0:11:02customs union. The reality is, and if you talk to some of the leading
0:11:02 > 0:11:05remain people in Northern Ireland on the business front, the people who
0:11:05 > 0:11:11run the ports, yes, we want to stay in the European Union, but now we
0:11:11 > 0:11:14are leaving, to create a border between Northern Ireland and the
0:11:14 > 0:11:19rest of the UK where three quarters of our trade is with the United
0:11:19 > 0:11:24Kingdom would be madness. Never mind the political consequences. If you
0:11:24 > 0:11:27care about business, jobs and investment, you will do nothing
0:11:27 > 0:11:35which cuts Northern Ireland off, between the UK and the rest of the
0:11:35 > 0:11:39EU.When the UK Government say they are not prepared to discuss the
0:11:39 > 0:11:43economic and constitutional integrity of the UK, what you say to
0:11:43 > 0:11:47this?I don't think it will challenge the constitutional
0:11:47 > 0:11:50integrity as Northern Ireland will remain part of the UK. I completely
0:11:50 > 0:11:56agree that nothing can change that it is by consent from the people of
0:11:56 > 0:12:01Ireland and Northern Ireland.What about the economic argument?I think
0:12:01 > 0:12:05we are talking about the least worst option. In either regard we will end
0:12:05 > 0:12:09up doing economic damage to Northern Ireland. That is my view on where
0:12:09 > 0:12:15this is likely to lead. The question is, which damage trumps which. My
0:12:15 > 0:12:21view is that the principal danger we face is reintroducing a hard border
0:12:21 > 0:12:25between North and South, with all of the political problems I think that
0:12:25 > 0:12:27will potentially give rise to and that has to be avoided above all
0:12:27 > 0:12:34else. That is my view and the view of many people.It seems that the
0:12:34 > 0:12:37political considerations are above the economic considerations. In my
0:12:37 > 0:12:41view both of them are important, but the economic one, whether you are
0:12:41 > 0:12:45nationalist or unionist, people want to ensure that you have a good
0:12:45 > 0:12:48future and there is good trade. To cut yourself off and create
0:12:48 > 0:12:55differences and barriers between trade of your biggest traders, that
0:12:55 > 0:12:59is economic vandalism. In terms of the political side of it, the
0:12:59 > 0:13:03British government in its August paper on Ireland and the border put
0:13:03 > 0:13:06forward practical solutions. Radical solutions which ended Kenny was
0:13:06 > 0:13:14working on and when Leo Varadkar, he stopped the work on the practical
0:13:14 > 0:13:18solutions, when he came in. He wants to keep the whole of the UK in the
0:13:18 > 0:13:22customs union, and I understand that that is good for the Republic of
0:13:22 > 0:13:25Ireland but that isn't going to happen.How difficult do you think
0:13:25 > 0:13:29the Irish government is being on this? When I interviewed one of the
0:13:29 > 0:13:33MEPs, she said it would be traumatising for Ireland if there is
0:13:33 > 0:13:36anything that destroys that relationship between Northern
0:13:36 > 0:13:40Ireland and Ireland and she says that is what you are doing.It was
0:13:40 > 0:13:47the Irish Republic who decided to break with sterling, that parity we
0:13:47 > 0:13:51had, and the Irish government decided to create that union and
0:13:51 > 0:13:54create barriers between the South and Northern Ireland in terms of
0:13:54 > 0:13:57currency and they're all sorts of differences. Our view is that we
0:13:57 > 0:14:01need to work together. The Irish are in grave danger of doing damage
0:14:01 > 0:14:06their own industry and the Irish farmers Association came out to
0:14:06 > 0:14:10criticise Leo Varadkar, saying that what you'll end up doing is that the
0:14:10 > 0:14:16EE you and Ireland, creating that hard border, cutting us off from the
0:14:16 > 0:14:19GB market.But the farmers also said there should not be a hard border on
0:14:19 > 0:14:24the island. They've united with the trade and business leaders.But we
0:14:24 > 0:14:27are not the ones putting it up there.We have to make sure we have
0:14:27 > 0:14:33a practical to solution taking it forward. David Davis brought forward
0:14:33 > 0:14:38sums solutions and then rode backwards and said we could not have
0:14:38 > 0:14:41a technical fix.Let's talk about the practicalities. There is an
0:14:41 > 0:14:46issue because there are so many people, Wise heads, who say that
0:14:46 > 0:14:50technological solutions will do it but they say that won't work and
0:14:50 > 0:14:54there has to be a way of checking customs and goods and having
0:14:54 > 0:14:57regulatory equivalents, and the easiest way in the eyes of the EU
0:14:57 > 0:15:03would be to keep Northern Ireland in the customs union. What is your
0:15:03 > 0:15:10solution if technology is not going to cure all, what else is there?
0:15:10 > 0:15:19Let's be careful.David Davis wrote back on the issue that was about a
0:15:19 > 0:15:22new preferred customs arrangement and said there were difficulties but
0:15:22 > 0:15:28on the technology side, go to Sweden and Norway. They are inside the
0:15:28 > 0:15:33single market, but outside the customs union. Go to Switzerland,
0:15:33 > 0:15:37evidence given by the authorities and there are technological
0:15:37 > 0:15:41solutions, so the idea it cannot work is wrong. If we get a free
0:15:41 > 0:15:46trade deal and move on to the second phase and get a tower if free deal,
0:15:46 > 0:15:53we will not have to worry so much about this. Bowen, I hope and his
0:15:53 > 0:15:57MEPs in Brussels. Voting against moving to the second stage of talks
0:15:57 > 0:16:02and actually get on and support the British Government's view it is
0:16:02 > 0:16:06necessary because until we get to the second stage we cannot get to a
0:16:06 > 0:16:11final deal.Have you got Brussels' backing for the idea of Northern
0:16:11 > 0:16:16Ireland remaining part of the EU?I have not asked for it. What I am
0:16:16 > 0:16:20trying to point out is there has to be a practical solution that avoids
0:16:20 > 0:16:25a hard border on the island of Ireland. Northern Ireland remains as
0:16:25 > 0:16:30close to part of the customs union as is possible and I don't think
0:16:30 > 0:16:43that damages the constitutional integrity of the UK nor offers put
0:16:43 > 0:16:50-- political advantage to Brussels. Then simply transfer to the border
0:16:50 > 0:16:55of Northern Ireland and the UK...If we were to end up with a border down
0:16:55 > 0:17:01the Irish Sea, how difficult would it be?It went. The government has
0:17:01 > 0:17:05been clear and we are clear because both politically and economically,
0:17:05 > 0:17:10it would be catastrophic. It would be catastrophic economic theory
0:17:10 > 0:17:15because businesses, trade with the rest...What assurances have you had
0:17:15 > 0:17:19from the government? Would it be so important that you would be prepared
0:17:19 > 0:17:24to pull out of the confidence and supply motion?It would be gravely
0:17:24 > 0:17:28destabilising to the government and they know that but secondly it would
0:17:28 > 0:17:36be gravely destabilising to Northern Ireland. Barry is going into words
0:17:36 > 0:17:43because market would be disastrous. From the political point of view it
0:17:43 > 0:17:48will not happen.As you said early in our discussion politics in a
0:17:48 > 0:17:51negotiation is important and the government said it was not prepared
0:17:51 > 0:17:55to move further than the Florence speech amount of money and it has
0:17:55 > 0:18:00moved and there could be a situation where they say they will seek some
0:18:00 > 0:18:04sort of regulatory equivalence for Northern Ireland and Ireland and if
0:18:04 > 0:18:09that happened, would you pull out of that agreement?This is the Lee
0:18:09 > 0:18:13Varadkar idea that you do not stay in the customs union and single
0:18:13 > 0:18:17market but mirror everything. Which would lead to greater difference and
0:18:17 > 0:18:23it would be Northern Ireland economy and the rest of the UK and that is
0:18:23 > 0:18:27not acceptable and the government know it would be a red line for the
0:18:27 > 0:18:31DUP.If Brexit talks collapsed as a result of what some critics might
0:18:31 > 0:18:36say would be your intransigence, there could be another general
0:18:36 > 0:18:41election.Is that something you would like to see? We are committed
0:18:41 > 0:18:46to supporting the government in its main objectives of achieving Brexit
0:18:46 > 0:18:49and the security and stability the country needs and I am confident the
0:18:49 > 0:18:54government will get to that.You do not think the pressure you will
0:18:54 > 0:18:58exert to make sure the government sticks to what it has promised in
0:18:58 > 0:19:02terms of Northern Ireland would not collapse? A general election could
0:19:02 > 0:19:07bring an alternative government.We do not have to exert pressure on
0:19:07 > 0:19:13this.There is not going to be any move towards what you're suggesting
0:19:13 > 0:19:16as a result.We do not know that because we are in fluid negotiations
0:19:16 > 0:19:20and I agree with Nigel, we need to move to the next stage and I hope we
0:19:20 > 0:19:27will make progress, because it has been disastrously slow. Nigel
0:19:27 > 0:19:32revealed, he used the word intransigence, but he is revealing
0:19:32 > 0:19:38it is politics driving his position. I have pointed out the economic. Leo
0:19:38 > 0:19:41Varadkar offered a simple and practical way in which we could
0:19:41 > 0:19:47solve problems but the DUP are not prepared... They feel it changes the
0:19:47 > 0:19:51nature of Northern Ireland within the union.You have yet to address
0:19:51 > 0:19:54and you have not answered the central point, what do you do about
0:19:54 > 0:19:58most of the trade going to the UK? You would want to create a barrier
0:19:58 > 0:20:03in terms of customs differences and regulation tariffs between Northern
0:20:03 > 0:20:08Ireland where most of the trade goes to the UK. You do not even want to
0:20:08 > 0:20:19address that.Let him address it. Millions of pieces of trade occur
0:20:19 > 0:20:23between Ireland north and south and the huge Mac goes from the south
0:20:23 > 0:20:26through the North into GB and huge amounts of trade goes from within
0:20:26 > 0:20:33the UK between Northern Ireland and GB and that is true. Whatever way
0:20:33 > 0:20:38around we solve the problem we aren't going to see in my view a
0:20:38 > 0:20:41lessening of the economic performance of Northern Ireland,
0:20:41 > 0:20:48indeed of the UK and that is the reality. We have to get right the
0:20:48 > 0:20:52perspective on Northern Ireland, not returning to a problem with a border
0:20:52 > 0:20:56dividing the island that gave rise to conflict in Northern Ireland. The
0:20:56 > 0:21:02answer is the politics has to trump the economics because the danger in
0:21:02 > 0:21:07Northern Ireland is so great. The politics and a political solution
0:21:07 > 0:21:11have to come first.Why do you see the DUP as the block in this, isn't
0:21:11 > 0:21:15it the government to hold the same position, or are you say they are
0:21:15 > 0:21:23blocking the government moving on?I am not sure they hold the same
0:21:23 > 0:21:25position. I think you can get a large bit of paper between what they
0:21:25 > 0:21:28have said and what Nigel has said and we do not yet know where the
0:21:28 > 0:21:31government are going to land on this and it may there is a compromise to
0:21:31 > 0:21:36be found that is unique, special status for Northern Ireland
0:21:36 > 0:21:41reflecting the unique nature of the Good Friday Agreement.That could
0:21:41 > 0:21:45result in the DUP pulling support? That is not our concern, that is for
0:21:45 > 0:21:50the DUP and government to worry about. My concern is maintaining the
0:21:50 > 0:21:54cost Jewish and integrity of the UK and making sure Northern Ireland and
0:21:54 > 0:22:01the Republic do not a hard border. Arlene Foster accuse the government
0:22:01 > 0:22:06of using the issue is blackmail in the Brexit negotiations. Why should
0:22:06 > 0:22:11the Irish public not comment?I have no problem on the Irish government
0:22:11 > 0:22:16standing up for its own position and national interests. What I have
0:22:16 > 0:22:20problems with is people who represent the UK and UK parties,
0:22:20 > 0:22:28they back the Irish against the interests of their own people. So
0:22:28 > 0:22:32that the Irish can have free access to Northern Ireland. Let's create a
0:22:32 > 0:22:35barrier between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK...Northern
0:22:35 > 0:22:42Ireland voted to remain.In the referendum. As did London and as did
0:22:42 > 0:22:48other regions of the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom is one country.
0:22:48 > 0:22:51Representing the people in the way you expressed you could say you are
0:22:51 > 0:22:55out of step with the views in Northern Ireland.I could point to
0:22:55 > 0:23:02constituencies in Northern Ireland that voted to leave. We could all
0:23:02 > 0:23:07drill down into micro-areas and regions. This was a UK national
0:23:07 > 0:23:13referendum and as we joined the EU we will leave together and there is
0:23:13 > 0:23:17talk about the DUP and government, we are on the same page and the
0:23:17 > 0:23:21Prime Minister made clear today and David Davis has spelt it out and
0:23:21 > 0:23:25James Brokenshire in Brussels made a strong speech because they recognise
0:23:25 > 0:23:29that it would do such economic damage to Northern Ireland it would
0:23:29 > 0:23:33be inconceivable.What did you think when the Labour Party front bench
0:23:33 > 0:23:37walked through the lobby with the Tories yesterday in voting down a
0:23:37 > 0:23:42bid to keep Britain in the single market and customs union?I was back
0:23:42 > 0:23:50in my constituency on business but my understanding is it was a one
0:23:50 > 0:23:53line whip and a couple of members of Labour Party front bench walking
0:23:53 > 0:23:57through the lobbies. The important ones.Not our Brexit Secretary.But
0:23:57 > 0:24:02John McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn. My view is we should be in the customs
0:24:02 > 0:24:07union for the transitional period and that Northern Ireland should be
0:24:07 > 0:24:10in the customs union or something akin to it and I would have been
0:24:10 > 0:24:14tempted to vote for the amendment had I been there but as I understand
0:24:14 > 0:24:19it I would be free to do that.Was it a betrayal by the front bench to
0:24:19 > 0:24:23go through the lobby with the Tories?I do not think so but people
0:24:23 > 0:24:27have different views in different parties and that was reflected in
0:24:27 > 0:24:30last night's vote.
0:24:30 > 0:24:32So, today, we're covering sorting out Brexit and
0:24:32 > 0:24:35the Northern Ireland Assembly, both tough jobs but spare a thought
0:24:35 > 0:24:37for someone with another tricky one.
0:24:37 > 0:24:39Richard Leonard was elected leader of the Scottish Labour
0:24:39 > 0:24:41party over the weekend, and squeezed between Nicola
0:24:41 > 0:24:43Sturgeon's SNP and a resurgent Scottish Conservative Party under
0:24:43 > 0:24:47Ruth Davidson, he has quite a task to turn his party's fortunes around.
0:24:47 > 0:24:50Just to make life harder for himself he's now admitted he would support
0:24:50 > 0:24:52England over Scotland in football or rugby, he clearly
0:24:52 > 0:24:54doesn't like an easy life.
0:24:54 > 0:24:55And I'm pleased to say Richard Leonard
0:24:55 > 0:25:05joins me now from Edinburgh.
0:25:06 > 0:25:15Welcome. To win big in Scotland you need to win back Labour's old
0:25:15 > 0:25:18heartlands in Glasgow and Lanarkshire. How does a privately
0:25:18 > 0:25:23educated England supporter do that? My response was to a question in
0:25:23 > 0:25:28which I thought it was right to give an honest answer and so it may not
0:25:28 > 0:25:32be popular in all circles but I thought it was the right thing to
0:25:32 > 0:25:39do. The reason why I have been elected as leader of the Scottish
0:25:39 > 0:25:44Labour Party is because I stood on a radical programme calling for an
0:25:44 > 0:25:48extension of public ownership and ends to austerity and a
0:25:48 > 0:25:53redistribution not just of wealth but power. Those were traditional
0:25:53 > 0:25:58Labour messages perhaps, and once that which have their roots in a
0:25:58 > 0:26:02manifesto which we fought the general election and people are
0:26:02 > 0:26:05turning to the Labour Party in Scotland more as a party that
0:26:05 > 0:26:12represents the hope of a different future so it is a positive,
0:26:12 > 0:26:16optimistic Labour Party in Scotland we are building.Use say the
0:26:16 > 0:26:20Scottish Labour Party will be a movement for socialism. Are you
0:26:20 > 0:26:29Jeremy Corbyn's man north of the border?I am a bit the tooth to be a
0:26:29 > 0:26:34Corbynista. We have both been in the party a long time and I have been in
0:26:34 > 0:26:39the party 35 years and I have largely stuck to my views and
0:26:39 > 0:26:42principles and that has meant occasionally I have been a bit off
0:26:42 > 0:26:48message and maybe out of fashion occasionally, but I have been
0:26:48 > 0:26:52consistent and that lends credibility in articulating this
0:26:52 > 0:26:56radical Socialist democratic renewal of Scotland, which I am looking for.
0:26:56 > 0:27:02That is in line with what Jeremy Corbyn is doing broadly. Would you
0:27:02 > 0:27:06be prepared to challenge the Labour leadership and policies put forward
0:27:06 > 0:27:11in London to set your own individual agenda?It is not so much an
0:27:11 > 0:27:16individual agenda. It is a Scottish Labour Party agenda and I have been
0:27:16 > 0:27:21clear the mandate I got at the weekend was from the membership of
0:27:21 > 0:27:26the Scottish Labour Party and it is to those members I will be
0:27:26 > 0:27:29accountable, not beholden to any individual in the Labour Party
0:27:29 > 0:27:37previously and I will not start now. There have been differences for a
0:27:37 > 0:27:40while in the prospectus offered by the Scottish Labour Party rather
0:27:40 > 0:27:44than at UK level on things like taxation where we have argued there
0:27:44 > 0:27:48needs to be a more progressive approach using powers of the
0:27:48 > 0:27:52Scottish Parliament to combat austerity.How does that differ from
0:27:52 > 0:27:57what the SNP are probably going to do? They have hinted at tax rises.
0:27:57 > 0:28:02There will not be that much to distinguish you and at the moment
0:28:02 > 0:28:12you are behind, both the Tories and SNP.The distinction is this, the
0:28:12 > 0:28:15SNP has been empowered the last ten years and during that time they have
0:28:15 > 0:28:19instituted a council tax freeze and almost done nothing to change income
0:28:19 > 0:28:24tax rates and bands and there is now an opportunity to build a consensus
0:28:24 > 0:28:30in the Scottish Parliament for more progressive approach of I hope they
0:28:30 > 0:28:33will come along with other parties including the Labour Party to
0:28:33 > 0:28:39promote that agenda. The distinction is this, the Scottish Parliament has
0:28:39 > 0:28:43extensive powers, many of which the SNP has not used in ten years in
0:28:43 > 0:28:48office.They may be about to do so, which would blunt your attempt to
0:28:48 > 0:28:54try to grab the initiative. Unity is important in a party. The public do
0:28:54 > 0:28:59not like this within politics and you will be the fourth leader of the
0:28:59 > 0:29:03Scottish Labour Party in three years of most of your colleagues voted for
0:29:03 > 0:29:08your rival in the recent leadership contest and your predecessor said
0:29:08 > 0:29:13there were internal problems within Labour, plotting and bullying. How
0:29:13 > 0:29:17will you unite the Scottish Labour Party?I will unite the party
0:29:17 > 0:29:22because I have a mandate not just from the trade union section but
0:29:22 > 0:29:27grassroots membership and I have a majority and have had a majority of
0:29:27 > 0:29:31members of the Parliamentary Labour Party from Scotland supporting me. I
0:29:31 > 0:29:38will reach out to all parts of the party, Parliamentary, local
0:29:38 > 0:29:42government, activists, trade unionists, and build a unity, but it
0:29:42 > 0:29:48will not be a hollow call for unity but a unity of purpose and that is
0:29:48 > 0:29:53about building that movement for real change because after 20 years
0:29:53 > 0:29:58of devolution and ten years of the SNP in power, people are hungry for
0:29:58 > 0:30:02radical change and are increasingly turning to the Scottish Labour Party
0:30:02 > 0:30:08to be the vehicle for realising radical change.Are you going to
0:30:08 > 0:30:13suspend Kezia Dugdale for taking part in I'm A Celebrity without
0:30:13 > 0:30:19authorisation?The group is about to meet in Holyrood in the next half
0:30:19 > 0:30:23hour and there will be a discussion at that meeting about our course of
0:30:23 > 0:30:29action on that. I have said already that I do not support hasty calls
0:30:29 > 0:30:33for Kezia Dugdale's suspension but it will be a decision taken
0:30:33 > 0:30:37collectively.
0:30:37 > 0:30:42So you will be bound by the decision if they decide she should be
0:30:42 > 0:30:44suspended?I will be bound by the decision the group takes,
0:30:44 > 0:30:46absolutely.
0:30:46 > 0:30:49Nigel Dodds has been a busy man, this morning he was at Number 10
0:30:49 > 0:30:51discussing the restoration of the Northern Ireland power
0:30:51 > 0:30:52sharing arrangement.
0:30:52 > 0:30:54The Northern Ireland government collapsed after the then Deputy
0:30:54 > 0:30:56First Minister Martin McGuinness resigned over First Minister
0:30:56 > 0:30:59Arlene Foster's role in a heating subsidy scheme.
0:30:59 > 0:31:02There is now talk of direct rule from London and last week
0:31:02 > 0:31:05Northern Ireland's budget had to go through the UK Parliament
0:31:05 > 0:31:11because there was a risk public services in Northern Ireland
0:31:11 > 0:31:12could run out of money.
0:31:12 > 0:31:19Sinn Fein also met the Prime Minister this morning,
0:31:19 > 0:31:22and speaking after the meetings Mrs May said
0:31:22 > 0:31:26She is determined to see the inaugural Ivan government back in
0:31:26 > 0:31:30action. I've said that the determination of the government is
0:31:30 > 0:31:34there to make sure we see the re-establishment of the fully
0:31:34 > 0:31:37functioning, inclusive devolved administration that works for
0:31:37 > 0:31:41everybody in Northern Ireland. I have almost -- always said our
0:31:41 > 0:31:46steadfast support for the Belfast and its successive agreements and
0:31:46 > 0:31:50the leadership of the DUP and Sinn Fein have committed to seeing
0:31:50 > 0:31:56Stormont back up and running.
0:31:56 > 0:31:58We can get more on this with Northern Ireland political
0:31:58 > 0:31:59correspondent Gareth Gordon.
0:31:59 > 0:32:05Were there any signs of progress made this morning in your view?As
0:32:05 > 0:32:09so often with the Northern Ireland peace process it is one step
0:32:09 > 0:32:12forward, three steps back. Not that we've really had a step forward, but
0:32:12 > 0:32:16the interesting thing out of the Theresa May interview which I
0:32:16 > 0:32:19carried at view minutes ago was that she said she wanted to see talks
0:32:19 > 0:32:23between Sinn Fein and the DUP resume next week and that came as something
0:32:23 > 0:32:27of a surprise to us because Sinn Fein last week said they believed
0:32:27 > 0:32:32the current phase of the talks process was over and there had
0:32:32 > 0:32:36essentially been four phases which yielded very little, if anything and
0:32:36 > 0:32:41Sinn Fein said they were prepared to go into a phase on the same basis.
0:32:41 > 0:32:45The DUP say like they are happy to go into talks any time anywhere but
0:32:45 > 0:32:49I simply cannot get an answer out of Sinn Fein yet as to whether or not
0:32:49 > 0:32:54they would be prepared to go back to talks as soon as next week but I
0:32:54 > 0:32:58would be surprised, as we speak, if that was the case. Theresa May also
0:32:58 > 0:33:02said she thought that the issues that divided the party were quite
0:33:02 > 0:33:07narrow, although she was aware of the challenges. A new challenge
0:33:07 > 0:33:09might have emerged this morning because Arlene Foster and Nigel
0:33:09 > 0:33:14Dodds came out of the meeting and criticise what they called the
0:33:14 > 0:33:20glorification of terrorism at the weekend Sinn Fein annual conference.
0:33:20 > 0:33:24The one where Gerry Adams said he would stand down as Sinn Fein
0:33:24 > 0:33:29president in the near future. They said that that would make, if
0:33:29 > 0:33:32anything, a deal to restore devolution even more difficult.
0:33:32 > 0:33:36Nigel Dodds said things like that had to stop. Gerry Adams, when it
0:33:36 > 0:33:40was put to him, when he came out, he said he had not seen the
0:33:40 > 0:33:44glorification of anybody at the Sinn Fein conference but what he had seen
0:33:44 > 0:33:47was a respectful, comradely acknowledgement of the role of
0:33:47 > 0:33:52Martin McGuinness. He refuted the use of the word terrorism and said
0:33:52 > 0:33:56that was pejorative. Whether that is a storm in a teacup or a more
0:33:56 > 0:34:00serious issue, we have Tousiq, but it does point out the difficulty of
0:34:00 > 0:34:11getting a deal between these two parties. -- we have two C.Let's
0:34:11 > 0:34:15pick up, because Theresa May said they want talks between you and the
0:34:15 > 0:34:19DUP to resume next week.Will you do that? We've made it clear to Theresa
0:34:19 > 0:34:23May today that Sinn Fein will reflect not just on reflects --
0:34:23 > 0:34:26events of the last few days and today's discussion but the progress
0:34:26 > 0:34:33of the talks over the last ten months. We want a deal we want to be
0:34:33 > 0:34:36able to talk but there's no point in having endless talks for months or
0:34:36 > 0:34:42months with no rhyme or reason or meaning behind them this is a simple
0:34:42 > 0:34:48solution, for Theresa May to stand up and ensure that rights are
0:34:48 > 0:34:51delivered to people in Belfast like they are in London and Liverpool.
0:34:51 > 0:34:54But can you give us a straight answer as to whether you will meet
0:34:54 > 0:34:58the DUP next week as the Prime Minister has said you should all
0:34:58 > 0:35:01stop I've given you a straight answer.We will reflect as a party
0:35:01 > 0:35:07on the progress of the talks and the discussion today, the frank and
0:35:07 > 0:35:13robust discussion that the Sinn Fein leadership had with Theresa May. We
0:35:13 > 0:35:17are open to talks on all sorts of matters, but let me be clear again
0:35:17 > 0:35:20that we do not want to have endless talks for months and months. The
0:35:20 > 0:35:24public need confidence in the process thus far it has not been
0:35:24 > 0:35:31there.We are getting closer to a state of direct rule. Just last
0:35:31 > 0:35:35week, the budget passed ball Northern Ireland by Westminster. Ie
0:35:35 > 0:35:39You really going to hold up power-sharing over an issue like the
0:35:39 > 0:35:44Irish language act?It is not Sinn Fein holding up power-sharing.The
0:35:44 > 0:35:48DUP said they would do it any time, anyplace, anywhere. Like the Martini
0:35:48 > 0:35:56ad.The DUP needs to stand up, and as I said before my first answer,
0:35:56 > 0:36:00deliver rights to all of the people across these islands. It is
0:36:00 > 0:36:03absolutely not sustainable that people in the north of Ireland do
0:36:03 > 0:36:06not have the same rights as they do in places like London, Liverpool,
0:36:06 > 0:36:10Edinburgh and Dublin. It is not sustainable going forward. To
0:36:10 > 0:36:14suggest that Sinn Fein is holding up power-sharing is not an accurate
0:36:14 > 0:36:23reading.So how do you envisage this ending in anything other than direct
0:36:23 > 0:36:25rule currently?Theresa May publicly said today that she is committed to
0:36:25 > 0:36:32the previous agreements.And you are talking about the agreement to
0:36:32 > 0:36:37introduce an Irish language act?We are talking about the agreement
0:36:37 > 0:36:41about protection for the Irish language that was made. We have
0:36:41 > 0:36:45issues around marriage equality, and is DUP and Tory access has been
0:36:45 > 0:36:50regressive for politics in the area of Northern Ireland. We are talking
0:36:50 > 0:36:54about rights being held up by a group of religious zealots that
0:36:54 > 0:36:58block progress in society. People are simply not content to move
0:36:58 > 0:37:02forward like this and that is the expression Sinn Fein has given to
0:37:02 > 0:37:08the debate.Except you could argue that that access you say is
0:37:08 > 0:37:12regressive has delivered 50 million extra pounds to health and education
0:37:12 > 0:37:15across Northern Ireland. Is that something to be celebrated?Any
0:37:15 > 0:37:21additional funds into our resources are to be welcomed but it has to be
0:37:21 > 0:37:25put on record that the Tories since 2010 have gutted our public
0:37:25 > 0:37:31expenditure, so to suggest that being given money is good, you have
0:37:31 > 0:37:42to look at the whole picture.Do you accept that the SDLP leader Colin
0:37:42 > 0:37:47Eastwood says it would be poor negotiating if Northern Ireland ends
0:37:47 > 0:37:55up with direct rule. He's not wrong, is he?The Irish government and Sinn
0:37:55 > 0:37:58Fein have also given the agreements were previously reached that direct
0:37:58 > 0:38:03rule is unacceptable. Direct rule is not a consequence of the negotiating
0:38:03 > 0:38:07position. We are talking about rights that have been demanded by
0:38:07 > 0:38:10White sections of the community and it's the Tories and DUP who are
0:38:10 > 0:38:16blocking rights that people have in Liverpool, Edinburgh, Dublin and
0:38:16 > 0:38:21London, but people in Belfast or not. That's not sustainable going
0:38:21 > 0:38:24forward.What you say about the criticism on the glorification of
0:38:24 > 0:38:30terrorism conference recently making the deal more difficult?I was at
0:38:30 > 0:38:34the conference and I did not recognise this at all. I think it is
0:38:34 > 0:38:37important to remember that we are only a few weeks pass Remembrance
0:38:37 > 0:38:40Sunday here where MPs of all persuasions stood in remembrance of
0:38:40 > 0:38:47those in the British Armed Forces, so it would be hypocritical to
0:38:47 > 0:38:51suggest that MPs and political parties can do that, and Irish
0:38:51 > 0:38:55people cannot stand with the same remembrance and dignity and respect
0:38:55 > 0:38:59for their dead as well. I think a little bit of common sense needs to
0:38:59 > 0:39:03be brought in.Chris, thank you very much. Nigel Dodds, you were shaking
0:39:03 > 0:39:09your head.I think the public will have heard Chris Hazard of Sinn Fein
0:39:09 > 0:39:13make an equivalence between the dead who served in the police services
0:39:13 > 0:39:18and the armies in world Wars to secure liberal freedom to be equated
0:39:18 > 0:39:22with IRA terrorists. There is no equivalence between those two groups
0:39:22 > 0:39:27of people. It really saddens me to hear people in 2017 talk like that.
0:39:27 > 0:39:32And that is one of the problems. Chris is talking about not seeing
0:39:32 > 0:39:36any glorification of terrorism at the conference but there was video
0:39:36 > 0:39:40played where the new MP for foil and others stood up and praised Martin
0:39:40 > 0:39:44McGuinness's role in the IRA and said the rebels and it got the
0:39:44 > 0:39:51biggest cheer of the weekend. This denial. Gerry Adams said he resented
0:39:51 > 0:39:57the term terrorism. You talk about rights...But they have a right to
0:39:57 > 0:40:02have the same rights as expressed there. Your party signed up to the
0:40:02 > 0:40:06St Andrews agreement and it contains, in black and white, a
0:40:06 > 0:40:11provision for the introduction of an Irish language act, so why don't you
0:40:11 > 0:40:14honour the commitment?First of all, the rights he talks about are for
0:40:14 > 0:40:18the Northern Ireland assembly and we do not have any veto, so get the
0:40:18 > 0:40:22assembly running and we can get them up and running. In terms of the
0:40:22 > 0:40:24Irish language act, that was a commitment by the British
0:40:24 > 0:40:29government, not by us. We played no role in that commitment. That is for
0:40:29 > 0:40:34the British government of the day, Tony Blair, Peter Hain, to answer
0:40:34 > 0:40:38for their commitments.So you are not going to one that? You don't
0:40:38 > 0:40:43support the idea of an Irish language act? So you are blocking as
0:40:43 > 0:40:46a totemic issue, preventing power-sharing?We offered a way
0:40:46 > 0:40:50forward which was illegal and balanced approach. There are two
0:40:50 > 0:40:56communities and cultures in the Irish community, and we have said
0:40:56 > 0:40:59that on cultural issues, identity issues there needs to be parity
0:40:59 > 0:41:05legislation for both. Sinn Fein want a one-sided agreement come and that
0:41:05 > 0:41:09is not fair.But they were promised it. You say it was a side issue and
0:41:09 > 0:41:12you weren't involved, so they were promised it, so can you see why it's
0:41:12 > 0:41:17an important issue?I can see why they feel they were outmanoeuvred
0:41:17 > 0:41:22and out negotiated by Tony Blair and those men of the day, but that is
0:41:22 > 0:41:26their problem. We have entered into agreements in things with them that
0:41:26 > 0:41:31we have honoured. Sinn Fein never raised the issue of the Irish
0:41:31 > 0:41:34language with us. They never put it into the draft programme of
0:41:34 > 0:41:40government. This has emerged as an issue. Some of us believe this as a
0:41:40 > 0:41:43fundamental point that Sinn Fein, and you heard him equivocating about
0:41:43 > 0:41:46getting back into talks but he wouldn't give a guarantee.Because
0:41:46 > 0:41:51he says there have been talks about talks and you have not moved and
0:41:51 > 0:41:56that is because, he will say, perhaps there is a feeling on the
0:41:56 > 0:41:59DUP side that you are happy to go to direct rule.We want devolution and
0:41:59 > 0:42:05think it is in the best way forward. I've been in a devolved government.
0:42:05 > 0:42:10Would you be happy with direct rule? But you wouldn't be unhappy?We
0:42:10 > 0:42:15think it's not the best option but it's interesting to hear Chris
0:42:15 > 0:42:17saying the government should implement their agreements in terms
0:42:17 > 0:42:21of the Irish language, which is direct rule, but he says that is
0:42:21 > 0:42:25unacceptable. They all over the place. But what is happening in Sinn
0:42:25 > 0:42:28Fein is they have their eyes on the southern election in the Irish
0:42:28 > 0:42:32Republic and people in the leadership simply want to sit out
0:42:32 > 0:42:35Brexit and sit out difficult decisions at Store Montt and keep
0:42:35 > 0:42:39the devolved institutions down until they get the Irish election out of
0:42:39 > 0:42:44way -- Stormont.Do you accept the deal with the Conservative Party,
0:42:44 > 0:42:47the confidence and supply agreement has yielded extra money and he
0:42:47 > 0:42:53accepted that, but has also been to the detriment when it comes to
0:42:53 > 0:42:56power-sharing, to getting the two sides back together? He called the
0:42:56 > 0:43:01axis regressive. I forget his exact words but pandering to religious
0:43:01 > 0:43:07zealots. What do you say to that?It is nonsense. The deal we have done
0:43:07 > 0:43:11to the Conservative Party is about getting infrastructure, health and
0:43:11 > 0:43:13education spending for all communities in Northern Ireland.
0:43:13 > 0:43:18Money that will help mental health and deprived communities.But you
0:43:18 > 0:43:21are signing up to the Conservative cuts that Chris was talking about?
0:43:21 > 0:43:27No we are not. When you get £1.5 billion to stop senior citizens
0:43:27 > 0:43:30having the benefit cuts and ensuring pay cap is lifted for nurses and
0:43:30 > 0:43:35make sure there is movement on tuition fees, that's not an agenda
0:43:35 > 0:43:38for austerity. That's an agenda that shows the DUP is delivering not only
0:43:38 > 0:43:44from Northern Ireland but the nation as well.Just finally, it is true if
0:43:44 > 0:43:47Jeremy Corbyn was in number ten you would find it rather more urgent to
0:43:47 > 0:43:52get back to Stormont?We for devolution now. We wanted to happen
0:43:52 > 0:43:58now. We not the ones up barriers. But a different leader in Number ten
0:43:58 > 0:44:03would focus your mind?We are focusing on what will happen in what
0:44:03 > 0:44:07is going to happen in the next few years, and we are confident that
0:44:07 > 0:44:10prospect will not arise.
0:44:10 > 0:44:12Productivity, or more precisely the lack of it,
0:44:12 > 0:44:14is one of the great problems of the British economy
0:44:14 > 0:44:16at the moment.
0:44:16 > 0:44:18The amount of stuff that the UK can produce per person,
0:44:18 > 0:44:21per hour has been stagnant for sometime, and is particularly
0:44:21 > 0:44:23poor compared to our international competitors like Germany and the US.
0:44:23 > 0:44:24So what's holding us back?
0:44:24 > 0:44:28Emma Vardy's been taking a look.
0:44:28 > 0:44:31It's called the productivity gap.
0:44:31 > 0:44:35If you measure how much each employee makes over a period
0:44:35 > 0:44:39of time, it takes a German worker four days to produce what a British
0:44:39 > 0:44:42worker makes in five.
0:44:42 > 0:44:47And it's been puzzling economists and politicians for years.
0:44:47 > 0:44:50Productivity is the most important thing in the economy.
0:44:50 > 0:44:53Productivity is why we are rich and some places are poor and it's
0:44:53 > 0:44:57why we're rich now and in the past people used to starve to death.
0:44:57 > 0:45:00Over the last 200 years productivity has grown about 2% a year and it's
0:45:00 > 0:45:03just stopped over the last ten years and we don't really know why.
0:45:03 > 0:45:05Think of Britain like a giant car-wash business.
0:45:05 > 0:45:10Broadly speaking, productivity is often higher when industries
0:45:10 > 0:45:14use machinery to make jobs more efficient.
0:45:14 > 0:45:18But where companies opt instead for a greater use of people power,
0:45:18 > 0:45:23and efficiency is reduced, productivity will be lower.
0:45:23 > 0:45:25There are ways to increase productivity, such as investing
0:45:25 > 0:45:27in new equipment, or adopting new processes so workers can improve
0:45:27 > 0:45:34the speed and quality of what they're doing.
0:45:34 > 0:45:37Economists believe Britain's poor productivity could in part be down
0:45:37 > 0:45:38to the supply of cheap Labour.
0:45:38 > 0:45:40Because, in uncertain times, employers are choosing cheap
0:45:40 > 0:45:45and disposable man-hours over the capital cost of new equipment.
0:45:45 > 0:45:47And there is a huge difference depending
0:45:47 > 0:45:53on where you are in the country.
0:45:53 > 0:45:58If you look at the greater south-east, it's 44% more productive
0:45:58 > 0:46:00than the rest of the UK, so quite a substantive.
0:46:00 > 0:46:03And when you get into our cities, places like Slough and London
0:46:03 > 0:46:05are nearly twice as productive as places like
0:46:05 > 0:46:06Doncaster and Swansea.
0:46:06 > 0:46:08East London is the UK's most productive area,
0:46:08 > 0:46:13partly down to high productivity rates from banks in the city.
0:46:13 > 0:46:15For me, the biggest problem is housing.
0:46:15 > 0:46:18People can earn a lot more and produce a lot more doing
0:46:18 > 0:46:22the same job in a more high-growth area, whether that is a Uber driver,
0:46:22 > 0:46:24plumber, a small business, or a solicitor even.
0:46:24 > 0:46:26But the high rents in places like London, Oxford,
0:46:26 > 0:46:27Cambridge, Brighton, and other places people
0:46:27 > 0:46:31want to move to are dissuading them from increasing
0:46:31 > 0:46:33their own productivity.
0:46:33 > 0:46:36Solving the productivity gap in the UK won't be easy.
0:46:36 > 0:46:40And could face another setback if trade is disrupted after Brexit.
0:46:40 > 0:46:44Experts say there is no single solution, but a whole range
0:46:44 > 0:46:46of things we need to address simultaneously, if we want to see
0:46:46 > 0:46:49the amount of stuff we produce per person per day,
0:46:49 > 0:46:55per year, go watch.
0:46:55 > 0:46:58It's not so much the policies that we've got, whether it is R&D
0:46:58 > 0:47:01and innovation, or transport or housing and skills.
0:47:01 > 0:47:04What really matters is how we bring those together and that's why
0:47:04 > 0:47:07I think we need to see our cities as the platform, the means
0:47:07 > 0:47:09by which we can bring more of these things together.
0:47:09 > 0:47:15That's why thinking about things such as Metro Mayors has been
0:47:15 > 0:47:17an important element of the industrial strategy
0:47:17 > 0:47:18and productivity response.
0:47:18 > 0:47:21It is the mix and the magic, by bringing those things together,
0:47:21 > 0:47:23that actually will get some of the benefits we desire.
0:47:23 > 0:47:25It is sort of a perfect storm hitting now.
0:47:25 > 0:47:28It is one of the reasons why politics feels quite
0:47:28 > 0:47:30nasty at the moment, because when you have
0:47:30 > 0:47:31productivity growth, everyone's getting richer,
0:47:31 > 0:47:33there's lots of things to spread around.
0:47:33 > 0:47:34When you haven't got productivity growth,
0:47:34 > 0:47:37wages aren't going up and there's a lot of people at
0:47:37 > 0:47:38each other's throats.
0:47:38 > 0:47:39Over the long-term, economists expect productivity
0:47:39 > 0:47:40to eventually recover.
0:47:40 > 0:47:47But it's a question of how long we'll have to wait for that.
0:47:47 > 0:47:50Watching that was TUC General Secretary Francis O'Grady
0:47:50 > 0:47:53and Tej Parikh who's a senior economist at the Institute
0:47:53 > 0:47:55for Directors.
0:47:55 > 0:48:06Welcome. Productivity, 22% less than the US and 23% weaker than in France
0:48:06 > 0:48:12and 26% less than the Germans, can it get worse?There is a number of
0:48:12 > 0:48:17things to look at with this puzzle, a tendency to simplify it down to a
0:48:17 > 0:48:23set of specific solutions. We need a ballistic and long-term approach
0:48:23 > 0:48:28when we look at productivity.Can we afford that? We have had low levels
0:48:28 > 0:48:36for some time.There are ways to boost productivity. In our
0:48:36 > 0:48:40consultation we are looking at ways to boost investment in the private
0:48:40 > 0:48:47sector and one way to do that is to raise the investment allowance for
0:48:47 > 0:48:53firms to replace Plant and key types of capital.Why are your members not
0:48:53 > 0:49:01investing now? Is it not their fault there has been a lack of investment
0:49:01 > 0:49:07over recent years? You could say workers are lazy, but isn't it down
0:49:07 > 0:49:11to poor management and lack of investment?Management is an issue
0:49:11 > 0:49:15and businesses need to look at organisational structure in trying
0:49:15 > 0:49:20to boost Labour efficiency and wider productivity but it is looking at
0:49:20 > 0:49:24wider economic environment. There is a high level of economic uncertainty
0:49:24 > 0:49:27at the moment which makes it difficult for businesses to plan
0:49:27 > 0:49:33ahead and that means it is harder to invest in technology and people.
0:49:33 > 0:49:38What needs to be done is to provide greater certainty and also support
0:49:38 > 0:49:45for businesses.France is more efficient in production but the
0:49:45 > 0:49:51trade-off is it employs few of them and their unemployment rate is 9.6%
0:49:51 > 0:49:57compared to 4.3% of the UK. Is it a trade-off worth making?It is not
0:49:57 > 0:50:03the trade-off you need to make. The three problems for the UK, that have
0:50:03 > 0:50:08run years before Brexit, but Brexit is creating more uncertainty,
0:50:08 > 0:50:11long-running problem of underinvestment public and private,
0:50:11 > 0:50:16in the bottom three alongside Portugal and Greece and secondly
0:50:16 > 0:50:20Labour is too cheap and we would like to see the minimum wage closer
0:50:20 > 0:50:27to the London living wage of £10 20 an hour. And we have not had an
0:50:27 > 0:50:31industrial policy to create the well-paid jobs, particularly in
0:50:31 > 0:50:35export industries that could help the balance of trade but also put
0:50:35 > 0:50:41money in pockets to spend.What do you say about increasing wages?It
0:50:41 > 0:50:47is a chicken and egg problem cars to increase wages, businesses need to
0:50:47 > 0:50:51boost productivity in order to give themselves a capacity to do so and
0:50:51 > 0:50:58we need to be careful that trying to intervene in the market and raise
0:50:58 > 0:51:03wages might have a counter effect where businesses are not able to
0:51:03 > 0:51:08support a workforce. In fact, one third of members said if their
0:51:08 > 0:51:12revenues were squeezed, they might have to consider reducing headcount.
0:51:12 > 0:51:23So there is a trade-off.
0:51:23 > 0:51:29We are seeing record profits. There is perhaps a bigger question about
0:51:29 > 0:51:34corporate governance and why they are not investing in new plant but
0:51:34 > 0:51:39also people'swage packets.Can the UK afford pay rises to public sector
0:51:39 > 0:51:43and private sector before productivity goes up?We cannot
0:51:43 > 0:51:49afford not to. We produced a report, the TUC, showing almost 50 billion
0:51:49 > 0:51:53has been sucked out of the English economy by the public sector pay cap
0:51:53 > 0:52:01alone, money not being spent in shops and local businesses and it is
0:52:01 > 0:52:06not encouraging private employers to start investing in skills as well as
0:52:06 > 0:52:15salaries.Why is productivity worse in Northern Ireland?Nerve it -- it
0:52:15 > 0:52:19is the worst performing region and something we recognise and we are
0:52:19 > 0:52:22working on strategy. Traditionally Northern Ireland has had a lot of
0:52:22 > 0:52:27people working in agriculture, retail, manufacturer of food and so
0:52:27 > 0:52:32on and textiles, which has also been labour-intensive, so there is an
0:52:32 > 0:52:38issue investing public key, which is what our package was about,
0:52:38 > 0:52:42infrastructure, skills, but companies you are right should be
0:52:42 > 0:52:46doing that. In terms of Northern Ireland, investment in
0:52:46 > 0:52:50infrastructure is key.You agree with Frances O'Grady on this broadly
0:52:50 > 0:52:55rather than the government?We take a balanced approach. In Northern
0:52:55 > 0:53:00Ireland we take the best of all the arguments. We will put forward the
0:53:00 > 0:53:05best of the arguments available. Would you like to see the Chancellor
0:53:05 > 0:53:09increase wages for other parts of the public sector other than police
0:53:09 > 0:53:13and prison service? I do not think the Chancellor will
0:53:13 > 0:53:16increase pay but he could relax restrictions in terms of the pay
0:53:16 > 0:53:22cap. I think Matt is right. We made that clear in terms of nurses and
0:53:22 > 0:53:28public sector pay generally. The policy has gone on long enough and
0:53:28 > 0:53:33too long and I hope we see movement. What if he does not give departments
0:53:33 > 0:53:38extra cash to do it, there must be cuts elsewhere?There are ways the
0:53:38 > 0:53:43government can manage this and he has extended the deadline for
0:53:43 > 0:53:48reducing the deficit and we will see what he does on that.Do you think
0:53:48 > 0:53:54it is the right way to go? Even if austerity is not over in that sense
0:53:54 > 0:53:57he relaxes deficit targets and put some sort of resource behind
0:53:57 > 0:54:03allowing their to be more money for public services?Members are for
0:54:03 > 0:54:07fiscal responsibility and we know the Chancellor has committed to
0:54:07 > 0:54:11specific fiscal rules and it is important for businesses that there
0:54:11 > 0:54:17is a semblance of policy continuity to allow businesses and investors to
0:54:17 > 0:54:23anchor expectations around. There is no doubt with Brexit and potential
0:54:23 > 0:54:28consequences, there may be need to set aside money to support the
0:54:28 > 0:54:32transition.Do you think it would be more important if there were to be
0:54:32 > 0:54:36something that might hamper the economy while the Brexit
0:54:36 > 0:54:40negotiations are going on, keep the fiscal rules, put money aside for
0:54:40 > 0:54:47that, before giving the green light to more pay rises?It is clear
0:54:47 > 0:54:50austerity policies have not delivered higher productivity and
0:54:50 > 0:54:55investment and on the contrary, we need to invest in public
0:54:55 > 0:54:59infrastructure including services to get Britain match fit. What do you
0:54:59 > 0:55:04want to see? We have one in seven workers in the public sector
0:55:04 > 0:55:08skipping meals. They have had seven years of pay cap and they need a
0:55:08 > 0:55:15real pay rise. It has to be fully funded. Nurses do not want to see
0:55:15 > 0:55:21porters and cleaners going without to fund their pay increase. It is a
0:55:21 > 0:55:24team, a family, and I hope the Chancellor will do the right thing.
0:55:24 > 0:55:26Well tomorrow instead of your usual Daily Politics
0:55:26 > 0:55:27Andrew Neil will host a
0:55:27 > 0:55:29special budget programme bringing you all the top
0:55:29 > 0:55:32analysis and reaction to Philip Hammond's statement.
0:55:32 > 0:55:35That's on BBC Two starting at 11.30.
0:55:35 > 0:55:40Time now to find out the answer to our quiz.
0:55:40 > 0:55:43The question was how did EU countries break the voting deadlock
0:55:43 > 0:55:46over which city would get to host the European Medicines
0:55:46 > 0:55:46Agency after Brexit?
0:55:46 > 0:55:48Was it...
0:55:48 > 0:55:49A coin toss?
0:55:49 > 0:55:50A tug of war?
0:55:50 > 0:55:51A game of rock-paper-scissors?
0:55:51 > 0:55:52Or a game of five-a-side?
0:55:52 > 0:55:58So Nigel, what's the correct answer?
0:55:58 > 0:56:03I think the correct answer was a toss of the coin, but I would have
0:56:03 > 0:56:09loved to have seen any of those scenarios. It is a good argument for
0:56:09 > 0:56:14transparency.Doing Rock, paper scissors. It was a coin toss with
0:56:14 > 0:56:18Amsterdam beating Milan after three rounds of voting and a coin toss.
0:56:18 > 0:56:20The old ways are sometimes the best.
0:56:20 > 0:56:23My guest of the day Nigel Dodds has plenty
0:56:23 > 0:56:26of experience in negotations, and many felt the DUP managed to get
0:56:26 > 0:56:27a particularly good deal with the Conservatives
0:56:27 > 0:56:37when they agreed to help them stay in government earlier this year.
0:56:40 > 0:56:46We can see the signing of the deal in June. They are flanked by the DUP
0:56:46 > 0:56:55leader Arlene Foster. And Theresa May and Nigel Dodds and Damian
0:56:55 > 0:56:59Green.
0:56:59 > 0:57:01So what makes a good negiotator?
0:57:01 > 0:57:03And are there rules that politicians should follow in order
0:57:03 > 0:57:04to get the best deal?
0:57:04 > 0:57:07Sir Christopher Meyer was the former Ambassdor to the United States
0:57:07 > 0:57:10and was also Chair of the Press complaints commission so he knows
0:57:10 > 0:57:13a thing or two about delicate diplomacy and he joins us now.
0:57:13 > 0:57:16First role in getting a good deal? No deal is better than a bad deal.
0:57:16 > 0:57:19You to that? Absolutely and it has nothing to do with Brexit
0:57:19 > 0:57:25particularly. I have seen it work in action. It is the other side of a
0:57:25 > 0:57:28coin that says decide what your bottom line is, stick to it and if
0:57:28 > 0:57:33the other side try to push you below it you walk out.What if you cannot
0:57:33 > 0:57:41get agreement on your side about the bottom line? You will. In terms of
0:57:41 > 0:57:43walking away, should the government walk away now?Would that be your
0:57:43 > 0:57:49strategy? I would not walk away now, I would be tempted to suspend my
0:57:49 > 0:57:53participation if come a new offer from Theresa May with a hint of more
0:57:53 > 0:57:58money at the December European Council, the EU 27 do not decide to
0:57:58 > 0:58:02move to the next stage, at that point I would say maybe it is not
0:58:02 > 0:58:06worth it after all and we will go back and think about this.You think
0:58:06 > 0:58:10it should be a case of jumping together when it comes to more money
0:58:10 > 0:58:14and moving onto trade talks?There is a principle which the EU has
0:58:14 > 0:58:23enshrined and that is, I'm sorry, nothing is agreed until everything
0:58:23 > 0:58:28is agreed. If that principle is there, by definition we should move
0:58:28 > 0:58:33forward in parallel talks on all the different bits of it.Do you think
0:58:33 > 0:58:37the British Government have been tough enough?I do not think they
0:58:37 > 0:58:42have, they were too quick to accept the motion of the sequence
0:58:42 > 0:58:45negotiation because that has structured to enable PE you to win.
0:58:45 > 0:58:53Thank you. Thank you -- enabled the European Union to win.
0:58:53 > 0:58:55That's all for today.
0:58:55 > 0:58:56Thanks to our guests.
0:58:56 > 0:58:58The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.
0:58:58 > 0:58:59Bye-bye.