0:00:39 > 0:00:44Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:44 > 0:00:47Theresa May is in Brussels to talk about security,
0:00:47 > 0:00:50and Brexit might just come up - but while it may be "Black Friday"
0:00:50 > 0:00:53at the shops, can the prime minister expect to get a discount
0:00:53 > 0:00:58on our divorce bill from the EU?
0:00:58 > 0:01:01A string of former defence chiefs warn that Britain's armed forces
0:01:01 > 0:01:03risk being "hollowed out" - should the government take
0:01:03 > 0:01:05seriously demands for more spending on the military.
0:01:05 > 0:01:07The Conservatives claim they've been the victim of "fake news"
0:01:07 > 0:01:09after reports circulate online suggesting they don't believe
0:01:09 > 0:01:11animals feel pain or emotions.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14We'll talk to the MP Zac Goldsmith.
0:01:14 > 0:01:16Former Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale has
0:01:16 > 0:01:20survived her first appearance on I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here -
0:01:20 > 0:01:23but she missed out on the title jungle prime minister and ended up
0:01:23 > 0:01:28cleaning the rainforest toilets.
0:01:30 > 0:01:33And we'll be joined by the experimental musician who's
0:01:33 > 0:01:35been making waves after his latest project challenging the backers
0:01:35 > 0:01:45of Brexit turned out to be in part paid for from public funds.
0:01:47 > 0:01:50All that in the next hour and joining me for all of it,
0:01:50 > 0:01:52two journalists we picked up in a special 2-for-1
0:01:52 > 0:01:55Black Friday deal - think of this show as the bargain
0:01:55 > 0:01:57basement of polticial discussion - it's Rafael Behr
0:01:57 > 0:01:58and Melanie Phillips.
0:01:58 > 0:02:08Welcome to both of you.
0:02:08 > 0:02:15And from the premium range.You are good value.
0:02:15 > 0:02:18One woman who won't have had much time for Christmas shopping this
0:02:18 > 0:02:20morning is prime minister Theresa May, she's in Brussels
0:02:20 > 0:02:23to meet with her fellow EU leaders where she's warning them to be wary
0:02:23 > 0:02:26of "hostile states like Russia".
0:02:26 > 0:02:28She's pledged the UK will stay committed to European
0:02:28 > 0:02:29security after Brexit, and although Brexit isn't
0:02:29 > 0:02:33on the official agenda it's like to have come up at a meeting
0:02:33 > 0:02:34with European council president Donald Tusk.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37Mr Tusk has called on the UK to show more progress on the so-called
0:02:37 > 0:02:40"divorce bill" if trade talks are to begin this year.
0:02:40 > 0:02:41Here's the Prime Minister.
0:02:41 > 0:02:43The summit here today is about working with our eastern partners.
0:02:43 > 0:02:46But, of course, I will be having other meetings.
0:02:46 > 0:02:48I will be seeing President Tusk here today, talking
0:02:48 > 0:02:49about the positive discussions, the positive negotiations
0:02:49 > 0:02:51we are having, looking ahead to the future,
0:02:51 > 0:02:53it deepens the special partnership that I want...
0:02:53 > 0:02:55Are you putting a figure on the table?
0:02:55 > 0:02:57..That I want with the European Union.
0:02:57 > 0:02:58These negotiations are continuing.
0:02:58 > 0:03:01What I'm clear about is that we are going to step forward together.
0:03:01 > 0:03:11This is for both the UK and the EU to move onto the next stage.
0:03:11 > 0:03:15Is now broadly accepted the Prime Minister will now present a figure,
0:03:15 > 0:03:19even if it isn't in pounds, pens, and viewers, but I financial offer
0:03:19 > 0:03:28to Donald Tusk?Essentially, yes. -- pounds, pennies, and euros. We will
0:03:28 > 0:03:35pay something. The decision ultimately hinges on how much of an
0:03:35 > 0:03:38outstanding budget is owed. Even if they've isn't a figure, somebody
0:03:38 > 0:03:44will do the sums and say that it is roughly 30, 40 billion. Everybody
0:03:44 > 0:03:48will want to avoid a headline number everybody can point at. But it will
0:03:48 > 0:03:55be roughly more than the 20 billion suggested.How confident are you
0:03:55 > 0:03:59that talk of an improved financial offer, if that is what we are
0:03:59 > 0:04:04talking about, will be met with an agreement to move onto trade talks?
0:04:04 > 0:04:08Nobody in the circumstances can be confident. It is smoke and mirrors.
0:04:08 > 0:04:14It's a poker game. We don't know how it is being played. From what one
0:04:14 > 0:04:20reads it would appear that as the deadline approaches minds are
0:04:20 > 0:04:24becoming concentrated. I've always taken the view that the European
0:04:24 > 0:04:28Union has more to lose from a no deal outcome. That isn't to say
0:04:28 > 0:04:32Britain doesn't have a lot to lose, as well, but in my view the EU will
0:04:32 > 0:04:37be in a desperate situation if there were no deal. I've always thought
0:04:37 > 0:04:41that the balance of power was on the British side, the British
0:04:41 > 0:04:47negotiators' side. It hasn't seemed to me that they are in agreement
0:04:47 > 0:04:50with that analysis themselves. What concerns me is that they may be
0:04:50 > 0:04:55playing a strong hand very weakly. In which case they will lose out.
0:04:55 > 0:04:59But one doesn't know. All of this is fainting in the sense of smoke and
0:04:59 > 0:05:04mirrors. I would hope we don't know what the actual negotiation position
0:05:04 > 0:05:09is. Because in this poker game they have to keep everybody guessing.It
0:05:09 > 0:05:18slightly overstate the value of the UK Budget contribution to the entire
0:05:18 > 0:05:23EU budget position. The UK Government position is that they
0:05:23 > 0:05:28want a deal. The decision has been made by ministers and the Prime
0:05:28 > 0:05:31Minister that they no deal scenario would be terrible...But the threat
0:05:31 > 0:05:38of walking away, is that not a card they hold?It is a card they don't
0:05:38 > 0:05:41want to realistically play. All of this stuff about no deal at bluffing
0:05:41 > 0:05:45is now separate. It was clear already a month ago that as the UK
0:05:45 > 0:05:49moved a bit more on the money, and the closer they would get to a deal.
0:05:49 > 0:05:55But it has now found a way of doing that. And it is a continuation of
0:05:55 > 0:05:59the card game analogy, the wild card is the question of the Irish border.
0:05:59 > 0:06:04Which was always one of the top issues the commission said had to be
0:06:04 > 0:06:09resolved before moving onto trade talks. What's important is that the
0:06:09 > 0:06:12UK behind the scenes will be essentially saying we have more or
0:06:12 > 0:06:17less solved citizen rights. We have more or less decided on the European
0:06:17 > 0:06:20Court of Justice...The Irish border will be a sticking point.Exactly.
0:06:20 > 0:06:25Why there will be a lot of conversations about security is they
0:06:25 > 0:06:30will say we've done two out of three, the Irish border is a
0:06:30 > 0:06:34complicated issue. Can we just agree to fudge the whole Irish question a
0:06:34 > 0:06:38little bit. But also going to EU member states saying we know you
0:06:38 > 0:06:44want to support the Irish on this but there isn't a deal that can be
0:06:44 > 0:06:48done on this. Can the UK Prime Minister peel off the other 26
0:06:48 > 0:06:51members to say, sorry to Ireland, you cannot have what you want right
0:06:51 > 0:06:56now, we must move on.Fudging a political position, who would have
0:06:56 > 0:06:57thought it!
0:06:57 > 0:07:00We've talked a lot this week about what was in Phillip Hammond's Budget
0:07:00 > 0:07:03speech on Wednesday, but today we're going to be talking
0:07:03 > 0:07:05about something that was rather conspicuous by its absence -
0:07:05 > 0:07:08defence - and that's despite a group of former Conservative defence
0:07:08 > 0:07:10ministers urging him to give more money to the armed forces.
0:07:10 > 0:07:13Annual defence expenditure in the UK has met the NATO benchmark
0:07:13 > 0:07:15of 2%, ever since records began ANI.
0:07:15 > 0:07:16However in recent years
0:07:16 > 0:07:17previously-excluded expenditure, such as contributions to UN
0:07:17 > 0:07:19peacekeeping missions as well as provisions for war
0:07:19 > 0:07:21pensions, have been included to meet this target
0:07:21 > 0:07:23The government has promised to increase Defence spending,
0:07:23 > 0:07:26although the department is already committed to finding £20 billion
0:07:26 > 0:07:36of savings over the next 10 years as part of an efficiency programme.
0:07:43 > 0:07:46The UK has the fifth biggest defence budget in the world.
0:07:46 > 0:07:47With an army totalling 155,474, including Gurkhas
0:07:47 > 0:07:53and full-time reservists.
0:07:53 > 0:07:54However there are continuing reports
0:07:54 > 0:07:57of shortages of manpower and equipment.
0:07:57 > 0:08:00This week HMS Diamond, a Type 45 destroyer costing £1 billion,
0:08:00 > 0:08:03had to head back to the UK after it struggled with its
0:08:03 > 0:08:08engine warm water.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11That leaves all six Type 45 destroyers in port in the UK,
0:08:11 > 0:08:13awaiting refits to rectify problems with their propulsion systems.
0:08:13 > 0:08:15And reports last month suggested the Royal Marines could be
0:08:15 > 0:08:16cut by 1,000 personnel.
0:08:16 > 0:08:18The Cabinet Office is currently conducting a mini-Defence
0:08:18 > 0:08:20and Security review looking at military capabilities
0:08:20 > 0:08:30and funding up to 2022, which will report back next month.
0:08:38 > 0:08:39We're joined now by the Conservative MP and defence select committee
0:09:04 > 0:09:06Here is Lord Alan West talking on the subject.
0:09:06 > 0:09:07These commitments demand hard combat power.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10And I fear that our military is being hollowed out to such an
0:09:10 > 0:09:13extent that we are no longer capable of providing it.
0:09:13 > 0:09:15My Lords, few of our population realise that STSR
0:09:15 > 0:09:182010 cuts our military capability by a third, by one third,
0:09:18 > 0:09:19it is quite extraordinary.
0:09:19 > 0:09:20And STSR 2015 has not resolved that.
0:09:20 > 0:09:22And the Americans have expressed growing concern about
0:09:22 > 0:09:25this diminishing military capability.
0:09:25 > 0:09:28Well we did ask to speak to a minister this morning but it
0:09:28 > 0:09:30seems none was available, however I'm pleased to say we're
0:09:30 > 0:09:33joined now by the Conservative MP and defence select committee member
0:09:33 > 0:09:36Jonny Mercer, he's in our Plymouth studio, and by the former Labour
0:09:36 > 0:09:44minister and former head of the navy Alan West.
0:09:44 > 0:09:48Welcome. When you set the Armed Forces are being hollowed out, what
0:09:48 > 0:09:54evidence do you have?Effectively, certain aspects of training have
0:09:54 > 0:10:00been stopped. Spare gear, spare items, logistic type stuff is not
0:10:00 > 0:10:03available. The repair work that needs to be done on complex
0:10:03 > 0:10:08equipment isn't being fully done or properly done. It's a whole raft of
0:10:08 > 0:10:13those measures that have been taken because, yes, they are saying let's
0:10:13 > 0:10:17find £70 billion worth of efficiency. Since I've been in the
0:10:17 > 0:10:21Navy, I joined 52 years ago, we have been finding efficiencies. Because
0:10:21 > 0:10:28governments always say that. There comes a stage where there -- it
0:10:28 > 0:10:34isn't an efficiency thing. Cuts them happen. And they are very large.The
0:10:34 > 0:10:37Armed Forces have always said they need more money to mitigate the
0:10:37 > 0:10:44expected cuts. I just said it is the defence Budget in the world, it is
0:10:44 > 0:10:50still a big budget with a lot of money behind it.It is a big budget.
0:10:50 > 0:10:56We are the fifth or six largest economy in the world, so it makes
0:10:56 > 0:11:00sense. We are also a permanent member of the UN Security Council.
0:11:00 > 0:11:05We are there because our military capability was one of the biggest
0:11:05 > 0:11:08powers in the Second World War. The reason we hold key appointments
0:11:08 > 0:11:13within Nato is because the United States and United Kingdom, up until
0:11:13 > 0:11:18recently, ensured really the defence and security of Europe. We are the
0:11:18 > 0:11:23people who really did it. Now they are saying, why should the UK have
0:11:23 > 0:11:27these senior jobs? Because we have cut our defence capabilities so
0:11:27 > 0:11:32much.What do you want to see in this defence and Security review
0:11:32 > 0:11:40currently being conducted?I hope it will show we are in increasingly
0:11:40 > 0:11:43unpredictable and dangerous world. Weren't we always?I think it is
0:11:43 > 0:11:49more so. There was a certain stability even back during the Cold
0:11:49 > 0:11:52War. It's become more unpredictable and more chaotic. I'm sure it will
0:11:52 > 0:11:58show that. And I hope it will say that we need to apply some real
0:11:58 > 0:12:07funding to this, not 2% done with smoke and mirrors, but by including
0:12:07 > 0:12:11things... You cannot kill enemies with civilian war pensions, I'm
0:12:11 > 0:12:17afraid. You need combat power.Do you think those efficiency savings
0:12:17 > 0:12:21should be scrapped?I think it's always right to look for
0:12:21 > 0:12:25efficiencies. It's always right look to see if there is a better way of
0:12:25 > 0:12:29doing things. You are right about the size of the Budget. We've always
0:12:29 > 0:12:34had concerns about procurement. We should look in procurement area. I
0:12:34 > 0:12:38think to assume that the way you are going to be able to pay for
0:12:38 > 0:12:42equipment you have ordered is by efficiencies is a recipe for
0:12:42 > 0:12:45disaster.You brought up the procurement issue. The MOD has a
0:12:45 > 0:12:50poor track record when it comes to procurement. We talked about the
0:12:50 > 0:12:55type 45 destroyer, it cost £1 billion in 2005 to 2007, now the
0:12:55 > 0:13:01engine will not work in hot water, so all six destroyers are in the
0:13:01 > 0:13:06port. Is our procurement strategy just incompetent?I don't think so.
0:13:06 > 0:13:12Things can be improved on there. The type 45 comedies and billion pounds
0:13:12 > 0:13:18each, the programme was £6.2 billion for what ended up as six ships. --
0:13:18 > 0:13:27the type 45, you said was £1 billion each. It was initially meant to be
0:13:27 > 0:13:3212 ships. What we keep doing is make political decisions which add to
0:13:32 > 0:13:36costs. The aircraft carriers were £2 million more expensive because when
0:13:36 > 0:13:40the crash came Gordon Brown's government delayed them by about a
0:13:40 > 0:13:44year and a half. But adds cost. Political decisions have hit
0:13:44 > 0:13:48procurement and caused problems. Were you surprised that there was
0:13:48 > 0:13:55not mention of defence in the Budget?I wasn't. I've always
0:13:55 > 0:13:59thought offence was the poor relation in terms of government
0:13:59 > 0:14:06policy and government priorities. To me, defence is the single most
0:14:06 > 0:14:09important requirement of a government, to defend the country.
0:14:09 > 0:14:16It should be given high priority.Do you think we are exposed?Always.
0:14:16 > 0:14:20The challenges are changing all the time as Lord West says. In recent
0:14:20 > 0:14:24years, in recent decades, I think politicians have come to believe,
0:14:24 > 0:14:30which I think is probably true, that among the public there is no sense
0:14:30 > 0:14:35of urgency about defence. And more than that, a distaste for defence.
0:14:35 > 0:14:41Difference doesn't mean defence, it means killing people. -- defence
0:14:41 > 0:14:45doesn't mean. I think the country has become pacifist. Dangerously so.
0:14:45 > 0:14:54It is unwilling to go to war.Do you agree?
0:14:54 > 0:14:58It's reasonable to not want to go to war, but where Melanie is right if
0:14:58 > 0:15:04there is important historical context. After the Cold War, it felt
0:15:04 > 0:15:07as if there was a peace dividend, the world was safer and therefore
0:15:07 > 0:15:13there was more money available to divert other things. We've now seen
0:15:13 > 0:15:17a situation where there is not much money available for all sorts of
0:15:17 > 0:15:20things. There's a political challenge to explain to the country
0:15:20 > 0:15:23why you would need to spend resources that might be spent on
0:15:23 > 0:15:27health on defence instead. An additional factor is the point about
0:15:27 > 0:15:31Nato which is when you have Donald Trump as president of the US, he's
0:15:31 > 0:15:36not that interested in European security, he's interested in other
0:15:36 > 0:15:41theatres. So it falls to the UK and France to be basically the military
0:15:41 > 0:15:46powers that support Western democracy, security in Europe.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49Ultimately facing Russia. How you organise that and find that, whether
0:15:49 > 0:15:54there is adequate funding is a different question, but that has
0:15:54 > 0:15:57massively change the strategic catalyst in the last year.Do you
0:15:57 > 0:16:10think it is two disingenuous to include UN pensions in this?Yes.
0:16:10 > 0:16:15Yes, we never historically did this, we were at 2.4% before the coalition
0:16:15 > 0:16:21came in. Effectively we've gone down to about 1.9%. In the way that
0:16:21 > 0:16:26percentage, what do we require? What we need? Hopefully distribute will
0:16:26 > 0:16:31do it but I'm not holding my breath. -- hopefully this review will do it.
0:16:31 > 0:16:36This is true in every department budget, you could say we were
0:16:36 > 0:16:39talking about health, schools, everyone can make their case on
0:16:39 > 0:16:43their priority and the fiscal situation is such and the growth
0:16:43 > 0:16:48situations are so bad that the priorities have to be made.I would
0:16:48 > 0:16:52support what Melanie said, they all say it, Prime Minister after Prime
0:16:52 > 0:16:57Minister, defence and other secretaries, the most important
0:16:57 > 0:17:00thing for any government is the defence of our people and quick as a
0:17:00 > 0:17:04flash they don't do it. I know from three years in government,
0:17:04 > 0:17:07governments can afford what they want is to afford. I think it has
0:17:07 > 0:17:14been pusillanimous and putting us on a path to danger.Before we let you
0:17:14 > 0:17:18go, because we have not been able to reach Johnny Mercer, with some
0:17:18 > 0:17:22technical problems, Michael Fallon, the former Defence Secretary, said
0:17:22 > 0:17:26in the budget debate that he hopes to speak more freely than the
0:17:26 > 0:17:29constraint of government allowed. You think you will be a useful ally
0:17:29 > 0:17:33in the argument you have been making?I wouldn't have thought so
0:17:33 > 0:17:36up until recently. I think he was disingenuous about what was being
0:17:36 > 0:17:43provided for defence but he suddenly had the conversion of five or six
0:17:43 > 0:17:47days before he went and suddenly said, we need more money for defence
0:17:47 > 0:17:52which is the truth. If he's going to be saying that, I'm delighted. I
0:17:52 > 0:17:57would hesitate to say he is a hands-on chap, but I hope he will
0:17:57 > 0:18:02say the right thing. We do need more money for defence. If you look in
0:18:02 > 0:18:05the Lords, every corner of the Lords, every corner of the Commons,
0:18:05 > 0:18:08they are all saying, there's a real problem here and the front benches
0:18:08 > 0:18:16ignore it or say, it's all fine. And it can't be if it's that difficult.
0:18:16 > 0:18:18The University of Liverpool has seen the latest campaign to rename
0:18:18 > 0:18:21a building because of claims that it honours a historical figure
0:18:21 > 0:18:22connected with the slave trade.
0:18:22 > 0:18:24But is this a sensible response to society's changing
0:18:24 > 0:18:27views, or another example of oversensitivity in our
0:18:27 > 0:18:29universities and beyond?
0:18:35 > 0:18:37They say history is written by the victors.
0:18:37 > 0:18:39Just as our taste for fashion and art evolves,
0:18:39 > 0:18:41so to do our values, and in turn, our view
0:18:41 > 0:18:45of that history.
0:18:45 > 0:18:46William Gladstone, campaigning liberal and still the only
0:18:46 > 0:18:49British Prime Minister to serve four terms, may not seem the obvious
0:18:49 > 0:18:54choice for reappraisal.
0:18:54 > 0:18:56But Tinaye Mapako, who's a medical student in Gladstone's
0:18:56 > 0:18:58home city of Liverpool, is one of a group of undergraduates
0:18:58 > 0:19:01who launched a campaign to remove his name from
0:19:01 > 0:19:03the student accommodation block.
0:19:03 > 0:19:06I think it was finding out about his role in the works
0:19:06 > 0:19:09for compensating slave owners.
0:19:09 > 0:19:11He helped gain some, the equivalent of some
0:19:11 > 0:19:15£4 million in today's money.
0:19:15 > 0:19:17I mean, some people will think, William Gladstone, one
0:19:17 > 0:19:21of our greatest prime ministers, known for being a great reformer,
0:19:21 > 0:19:23they will be surprised that you've singled him out.
0:19:23 > 0:19:27I think that's a wonderful case of what about-ery.
0:19:27 > 0:19:29It's really great that people are talking about other
0:19:29 > 0:19:31stuff that Gladstone did, but that doesn't really
0:19:31 > 0:19:35answer the question that we are offering to people.
0:19:35 > 0:19:38We're talking about the issue of slavery and how we commemorate
0:19:38 > 0:19:40people's role in the slave trade.
0:19:40 > 0:19:43Liverpool is a city built on the slave trade.
0:19:43 > 0:19:46Penny Lane, made famous by the Beatles, was in fact
0:19:46 > 0:19:48named after James Penny, a man who owned slave ships.
0:19:48 > 0:19:52This campaign by Liverpool students is one of the growing number
0:19:52 > 0:19:55all over the world aimed at removing the dedications and statues
0:19:55 > 0:20:01to those men who profited from the slave trade.
0:20:01 > 0:20:04A movement kick-started in the US.
0:20:04 > 0:20:07Earlier this year, New Orleans removed all Confederate monuments
0:20:07 > 0:20:11on the city's parks and streets, while Yale University announced
0:20:11 > 0:20:14it was removing symbols of Vice President John Calhoun,
0:20:14 > 0:20:18a Southerner, and staunch defender of slavery.
0:20:18 > 0:20:20The Rhodes Must Fall movement started in South Africa
0:20:20 > 0:20:23but quickly moved to Oxford, where students were ultimately
0:20:23 > 0:20:27unsuccessful in campaigning to remove the statue of imperialist
0:20:27 > 0:20:29Cecil Rhodes.
0:20:29 > 0:20:31But earlier this year, Bristol's Colston Hall,
0:20:31 > 0:20:34a well-known music venue, became the first significant
0:20:34 > 0:20:37institution in the UK to bow to public pressure and remove
0:20:37 > 0:20:41the name of the notable 17th-century philanthropist
0:20:41 > 0:20:43and slaver Edward Colston.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46It's a trend some believe is unhelpful.
0:20:46 > 0:20:49I don't think it helps to knock down statues,
0:20:49 > 0:20:52or knock down buildings, because then we're
0:20:52 > 0:20:54not going to learn.
0:20:54 > 0:20:57What we need to learn is that there are absolute evils,
0:20:57 > 0:21:03including slavery, but also that they were people of their time.
0:21:03 > 0:21:05And Gladstone was not a bad human being.
0:21:05 > 0:21:09For men of his class and his education, that's simply
0:21:09 > 0:21:11what people thought.
0:21:11 > 0:21:15And within that, he was a much better man than many.
0:21:15 > 0:21:18But while Liverpool's student union doesn't take an official view,
0:21:18 > 0:21:20it does think that the debate is one worth having.
0:21:20 > 0:21:24And they intend to hold a student referendum later this term.
0:21:24 > 0:21:28I think it's really positive to see students engaging in a critical
0:21:28 > 0:21:35outlook on the environment.
0:21:35 > 0:21:38I think the very fact that people are talking
0:21:38 > 0:21:40about it is a really academic way to investigate our history
0:21:40 > 0:21:43and I think it informs the way we live our lives now.
0:21:43 > 0:21:46So the students at Liverpool are the next generation of leaders,
0:21:46 > 0:21:49the idea that they are questioning things that have gone before them
0:21:49 > 0:21:50is a really positive sign.
0:21:50 > 0:21:53The University of Liverpool said any official request for a name change
0:21:53 > 0:21:56would have to go through a formal process, and while the names
0:21:56 > 0:21:58and statues that pack the city reflect a sometimes difficult
0:21:58 > 0:22:02history, they also offer an important reminder of the past.
0:22:07 > 0:22:10We're joined by Femi Nylander, an activist from the Rhodes Must Fall
0:22:10 > 0:22:15campaign. You heard it mentioned. Welcome to the programme. Calling
0:22:15 > 0:22:19for statues or names of historical figures to be removed because you
0:22:19 > 0:22:24don't like them and you think they represent something controversial,
0:22:24 > 0:22:28but doing it without contextualising it, or revising it or putting it at
0:22:28 > 0:22:33the time that these people were alive, is not a form of censorship?
0:22:33 > 0:22:39Talking about contextualising and something being contentious, this is
0:22:39 > 0:22:42not contentious. Slavery is not contentious, it was a crime against
0:22:42 > 0:22:46humanity on a mass scale. And Gladstone's use are not contentious.
0:22:46 > 0:22:50It's not just the fact that he got his father paid off to the tune of
0:22:50 > 0:22:55what is in today's money the equivalent of 83 million, that is
0:22:55 > 0:22:58just his father, but the rest of the people he got paid off, when he was
0:22:58 > 0:23:0353 in the 60s, when he was already Chancellor, he was defending the
0:23:03 > 0:23:10Jefferson Davis and the US civil war saying they should be able to
0:23:10 > 0:23:13succeed. He was a staunch supporter of slavery and he also helps run the
0:23:13 > 0:23:17British Empire but that is a different thing. When you talk about
0:23:17 > 0:23:24these monuments and statues, talking about Gladstone's role in the slave
0:23:24 > 0:23:28trade and Cecil Rhodes's history of colonialism only started in this
0:23:28 > 0:23:34country because of these movements. Do you agree?I don't. Gladstone was
0:23:34 > 0:23:38not a staunch supporter of slavery and what you say was true about his
0:23:38 > 0:23:42father and the compensation, but he had a more complicated set of views,
0:23:42 > 0:23:45he was anti-slavery, he just believed in a different way of
0:23:45 > 0:23:50approaching it. He wanted the slaves' conditions to be in fruit
0:23:50 > 0:23:56and he wanted compensation for the slave owners. It's not true to be a
0:23:56 > 0:24:01staunch supporter of slavery, to say he was, the opposite is true. I
0:24:01 > 0:24:04think it's troubling, I understand the strong feelings against slavery,
0:24:04 > 0:24:08it was and remains an annihilate evil, but this approach that says
0:24:08 > 0:24:14that we should expunge it from historical memory is wrong. We heard
0:24:14 > 0:24:20how important it was in the context of Liverpool that this controversy
0:24:20 > 0:24:22has produced critical thinking, students in gauging with the issue.
0:24:22 > 0:24:26If the statue was not there, they would not be in changing.Isn't it
0:24:26 > 0:24:30about learning from history? Anthony Seldon said, there are absolute
0:24:30 > 0:24:34evils and you may think that this case William Gladstone did represent
0:24:34 > 0:24:38in some form an absolute evil, but without reference to history, how
0:24:38 > 0:24:42will people talk about it and learn about it?We leave aside the
0:24:42 > 0:24:45question whether or not he was a staunch supporter... We will move
0:24:45 > 0:24:52on. In terms of how people will learn from it, we had to start
0:24:52 > 0:24:55teaching history, actually talking about Britain's role in the slave
0:24:55 > 0:25:00trade.And aren't these people part of it?For example, if you take a
0:25:00 > 0:25:03statue, if you go across the road, there's Parliament Square. And you
0:25:03 > 0:25:10have eight statue of Churchill, -- a statue of Churchill and another
0:25:10 > 0:25:15founder of apartheid, alongside a statue of Cecil Rhodes and Mahatma
0:25:15 > 0:25:18Gandhi and Nelson Mandela.Do you recognise that Churchill was seen as
0:25:18 > 0:25:24one of the Great War leaders?I recognise that, and he is not seen
0:25:24 > 0:25:29as a genocidal man who helped lead to the death of 4 million people in
0:25:29 > 0:25:39van Gaal. And we don't talk about history.I'm fascinated about this
0:25:39 > 0:25:42and ambivalent, but what is the statute of limitations of went an
0:25:42 > 0:25:46atrocity is just something you can observe in history, and you can put
0:25:46 > 0:25:53up monuments for people who are now considered atrocious? There was a
0:25:53 > 0:25:56statue of Cromwell, he was a fanatical murderer for some people,
0:25:56 > 0:25:59he would not be popular in Ireland, and if they understood his
0:25:59 > 0:26:05behaviour, people in this country, in modern values. When you look at
0:26:05 > 0:26:09what happened in the US with the taking down of Confederate
0:26:09 > 0:26:12monuments, those symbols were rallying points for a very active
0:26:12 > 0:26:17current extremely racist movement. That's a different thing...They are
0:26:17 > 0:26:22rallying points.But there are not Gladstone supporters rallying in
0:26:22 > 0:26:28this country.Britain was key to the dismantling of Libya, and the slave
0:26:28 > 0:26:33trading of black trading is going on in Libya because of the actions of
0:26:33 > 0:26:36Britain. Britain is still a very colonial force in this world and
0:26:36 > 0:26:40starting to deal with the history of white Britain is the fifth richest
0:26:40 > 0:26:44country in the world, why Britain is causing foreign wars and
0:26:44 > 0:26:47aggressions, is part of that, starting to look at history, look at
0:26:47 > 0:26:51people like Churchill.That's not quite true.We don't deal with our
0:26:51 > 0:26:56history. We don't talk about history, Churchill is now the £5
0:26:56 > 0:27:04not.This is an ideological way of looking at it, the slavery going on
0:27:04 > 0:27:08in Libya, the people to blame other people who are the slave owners in
0:27:08 > 0:27:12those countries and those countries. To blame Britain is perverse. And
0:27:12 > 0:27:17you can go to any hero and almost guaranteed that among their values
0:27:17 > 0:27:21and attitudes, especially if they were a long time ago, will be things
0:27:21 > 0:27:23that we find a very, very discomforting. Churchill undoubtedly
0:27:23 > 0:27:28had some extremely dubious from our point of view now attitudes to a lot
0:27:28 > 0:27:35of things.Churchill said, if there is a famine, why isn't Ghandi dead
0:27:35 > 0:27:40yet?But you can findings about Gandhi as well.Oh, yes, his statue
0:27:40 > 0:27:45is next to Churchill.So would you care all of these statues down?No,
0:27:45 > 0:27:52I wouldn't.Why not?Where would you draw the line? Melanie's .30 could
0:27:52 > 0:27:58find things that are difficult and uncomfortable, -- Malini's point,
0:27:58 > 0:28:03that you could find things that are difficult...There is difficult and
0:28:03 > 0:28:06accountable, and there is helping to lead to the death of 4 million
0:28:06 > 0:28:11people...With you see that on the same line as Hitler, Stalin, Saddam
0:28:11 > 0:28:17Hussein?Yes, people loved the statue of Saddam Hussein coming down
0:28:17 > 0:28:21because he's not a British hero.I'm fascinated by this distinction
0:28:21 > 0:28:26because something has been erected in the past because people wanted to
0:28:26 > 0:28:30venerate a certain figure, which you are now connecting to saying, means
0:28:30 > 0:28:33ongoing complicity in something appalling and atrocious that is
0:28:33 > 0:28:38going on. I can see in the Confederate case that is true, but
0:28:38 > 0:28:43in the case of Gladstone or Churchill, I don't see, it's quite a
0:28:43 > 0:28:45big leap from people venerating this person because of something they did
0:28:45 > 0:28:51in the past and right now...People right now do not deal with history.
0:28:51 > 0:28:55Written right now does not teach in its schools the history of
0:28:55 > 0:28:58colonialism. It teaches the history of slavery in the States but it
0:28:58 > 0:29:02rarely teaches about the history of slavery in the UK. Britain does not
0:29:02 > 0:29:09deal with history.It would taking the state to -- and would taking the
0:29:09 > 0:29:14statutes down the order that?The only reason we have had the
0:29:14 > 0:29:17conversation in the last few decades is the Rhodes Must Fall campaign and
0:29:17 > 0:29:20the wave of movement in the universities in the last couple of
0:29:20 > 0:29:27years. We have seen a massive backlash against us.I think these
0:29:27 > 0:29:30debates have been going on throughout...I remember them in the
0:29:30 > 0:29:3780s.I said in the past few decades! Thank you very much for coming in.
0:29:37 > 0:29:39Much appreciated.
0:29:39 > 0:29:41The musician Matthew Herbert is known for ignoring convention -
0:29:41 > 0:29:43he's previously recorded the sound of tanks, crematoriums,
0:29:43 > 0:29:46coffin lids and arms fairs for use in his electronic music,
0:29:46 > 0:29:48which as you might have guessed can be rather political.
0:29:48 > 0:29:50His latest project, called the 'Brexit Big Band',
0:29:50 > 0:29:54includes setting Article 50 to music and is described as a response
0:29:54 > 0:29:57to quote "the message from parts of the Brexit campaign that
0:29:57 > 0:30:00as a nation we are better off alone".
0:30:00 > 0:30:03It's been in the news after it emerged that the project has been
0:30:03 > 0:30:05in part funded by the Department for International Trade,
0:30:05 > 0:30:07led by leading Brexit supporter Liam Fox.
0:30:07 > 0:30:17Here's the Brexit Big Band in action.
0:30:17 > 0:30:20After Brexit, we decided to bring the Daily Mail, which is aBLEEP
0:30:20 > 0:30:23right-wing newspaper in England that made a referendum about
0:30:23 > 0:30:28sovereignty into something about foreigners.
0:30:28 > 0:30:35So, yeah, that's what we're reading today.
0:30:36 > 0:30:46MELLOW JAZZ, WITH RHYTHMIC RIPPING.
0:30:55 > 0:31:01I'm happy to say Matthew joins me. What was your motivation?Something
0:31:01 > 0:31:07about identity. Thinking about a sense of Britishness after the
0:31:07 > 0:31:13Brexit vote. It seemed such a shock to many of us that work and travel a
0:31:13 > 0:31:17lot and Europe, have friends there, and collaborate, it was such a
0:31:17 > 0:31:21shock. For me it was being about wanting to be part of that
0:31:21 > 0:31:23conversation. To talk about the things we've achieved. And not
0:31:23 > 0:31:32wanting to let it go.So it's a protest about Brexit?I think it is
0:31:32 > 0:31:37accepted that Remain hast lost. It's not a continuation of its campaign.
0:31:37 > 0:31:41But it is about what kind of Brexit do we want. It's clear the
0:31:41 > 0:31:45government took us into this without much of a plan. There is room for
0:31:45 > 0:31:50other people to come up with other plans and other visions.Why do you
0:31:50 > 0:31:53think Brexit Woodstock friendships, travel, and connections that
0:31:53 > 0:32:00currently exist in and with Europe? I was born in 1972. Europe has been
0:32:00 > 0:32:06part of my whole life, really. Much of what has enriched my life has
0:32:06 > 0:32:12been working and collaborating with people from all cultures. I feel
0:32:12 > 0:32:16like it's not really clear what the government is expressing about the
0:32:16 > 0:32:21kind of Brexit they want. Is it European style... Sorry, what kind
0:32:21 > 0:32:25of Britain they want after Brexit, is it European style, or is it
0:32:25 > 0:32:37American in the low taxation idea. Why do you think Brexit threatens
0:32:37 > 0:32:41tolerance and creativity?You only have to have a look at the spike in
0:32:41 > 0:32:46hate crime after the Brexit vote. Those figures are contested. Is that
0:32:46 > 0:32:50the basis for your evidence, that it will threaten tolerance in the
0:32:50 > 0:32:54future?You only have to look at some of the language coming out of
0:32:54 > 0:33:00the newspapers about how we talk about foreigners, how we talk about
0:33:00 > 0:33:05people of colour, that kind of thing.Melanie, part of this music
0:33:05 > 0:33:08is ripping up the Daily Mail, are you offended by that, used to write
0:33:08 > 0:33:17for them?I think it's a rather perverse and strange thing that a
0:33:17 > 0:33:19message of tolerance takes the form of tearing up the newspapers.
0:33:19 > 0:33:24Because that is promoting hatred of the Daily Mail. I appreciate the
0:33:24 > 0:33:31Daily Mail provokes strong opinions. To tear up newspapers has chilling
0:33:31 > 0:33:35connotations for me. Destroying literature... You know, burning
0:33:35 > 0:33:40books, tearing up newspapers. The deeper thing is, and I do appreciate
0:33:40 > 0:33:46that for Remainers it is a sort of grief, what has happened, but I
0:33:46 > 0:33:50think that is a perverse attitude. There is complete confusion between
0:33:50 > 0:33:56the desire of the Brexiteers, of whom I am very much one, to for
0:33:56 > 0:34:04Britain to regain its reputation, that we cannot be fully sovereign
0:34:04 > 0:34:10and self-governing to do that. You currently have a belief that we are
0:34:10 > 0:34:16narrow, bigoted, that we will be horrible to foreigners, that doesn't
0:34:16 > 0:34:25follow...Is that what you are saying?Where is the joy? Where is
0:34:25 > 0:34:29the positivity?About Britain being a self-governing nation, isn't that
0:34:29 > 0:34:33great?There is nothing joyful about this Government, nothing joyful
0:34:33 > 0:34:39about this process, no reaching out...That the Government.Melanie
0:34:39 > 0:34:42speaks on the half of part of the Brexit vote, when she feels strongly
0:34:42 > 0:34:46about. I think a lot of people who witnessed that campaign saw a very
0:34:46 > 0:34:53deliberate, cynical mobilisation of angry, xenophobic feeling. That was
0:34:53 > 0:34:58intrinsic to some of the messages put out by aspects of the Leave
0:34:58 > 0:35:06campaign. But wounded people. -- but that wounded people. It's quite
0:35:06 > 0:35:09reasonable to suggest, firstly it might not have crossed the finish
0:35:09 > 0:35:15line ahead of Remain had it not echoed some of those sentiments.
0:35:15 > 0:35:21Some people who feel aggrieved by it and sad about it have a passion
0:35:21 > 0:35:24about British identity, British democracy, and British sovereignty.
0:35:24 > 0:35:29They just don't think the EU was the corrosive force.I don't accept that
0:35:29 > 0:35:36it mainly motivated xenophobia. Going back before you were born,
0:35:36 > 0:35:41going back to 1975 when I voted no to Europe, have always been accused
0:35:41 > 0:35:44of xenophobia. Simply because I didn't think Britain should be in
0:35:44 > 0:35:49the EU. It is people like me who have been the target of hatred on
0:35:49 > 0:35:54the basis that we are automatically accused of bigotry, of xenophobia,
0:35:54 > 0:36:00of racial prejudice, of narrow-mindedness, of intolerance...
0:36:00 > 0:36:04It is extraordinary that you consider yourself to be addicting.
0:36:04 > 0:36:13Is ripping up the paper a hostile act? -- consider yourself a victim.
0:36:13 > 0:36:18Especially from somebody who was supposed to be promoting tolerance.
0:36:18 > 0:36:25For me I am interested in sound, stories, I'm interested in it as
0:36:25 > 0:36:30materials. It's not just the Daily Mail. Wherever we go we ask
0:36:30 > 0:36:33countries to provide newspapers who they feel are pushing towards a more
0:36:33 > 0:36:40divided society. We filmed this concept in Syria, Russia, and China,
0:36:40 > 0:36:44where the act has a different connotation.Why should you have
0:36:44 > 0:36:48funding from the Department of International trade?That an
0:36:48 > 0:36:53argument about arts subsidy. According to the bpi, which is where
0:36:53 > 0:36:58we got the money from, for every £1 they invest they get £10 back. They
0:36:58 > 0:37:04see it as investment. The creative industry provide a £2 billion worth
0:37:04 > 0:37:12of income to this economy.Would Liam Fox enjoy going to see this?
0:37:12 > 0:37:15The underlying point is he subsidises the arts, sometimes the
0:37:15 > 0:37:19arts will do things and perform things which make governments
0:37:19 > 0:37:22uncomfortable. That the healthy aspect. I must revisit this idea
0:37:22 > 0:37:29that Brexiteers are the victim of this. This is fascinating. The won.
0:37:29 > 0:37:32The ultimate policy is the overarching drive of what Government
0:37:32 > 0:37:40is doing. -- they have won. The idea of being pro-European is oppressing
0:37:40 > 0:37:47the Brexit spirit, that's so interesting...I said in the past
0:37:47 > 0:37:53that is how we were perceived and treated.There is no sense of
0:37:53 > 0:38:02triumph...Remainers are the most pessimistic people I've ever seen.
0:38:02 > 0:38:08Brexiteers are the joyful ones.You are bitter and miserable about it
0:38:08 > 0:38:15all the time.How wonderful it is to be democratic. I said that is how we
0:38:15 > 0:38:19were treated. I also said how wonderful it is Britain is becoming
0:38:19 > 0:38:23a democratic nation. You say that is joyless, but that is your view of
0:38:23 > 0:38:26what happened.Don't talk over each other because we will end this
0:38:26 > 0:38:31debate. Thank you very much for coming in.Thank you.
0:38:31 > 0:38:32The Conservatives came in for criticism this
0:38:32 > 0:38:34week following reports, widely shared by campaigners
0:38:34 > 0:38:36and celebrities online, that Tory MPs had voted to reject
0:38:36 > 0:38:38the idea that animals can feel pain.
0:38:38 > 0:38:41The party says it's been a victim of "fake news", and the reports -
0:38:41 > 0:38:44some of which have since been corrected - didn't reflect reality.
0:38:44 > 0:38:45Here's Emma Vardy to explain.
0:38:45 > 0:38:47Have MPs decided that animals don't have feelings?
0:38:47 > 0:38:49Some people think they have.
0:38:49 > 0:38:51And it's down to a vote that happened in Parliament recently.
0:38:51 > 0:38:53Since then, a lot of people have been getting
0:38:53 > 0:38:56really angry about this.
0:38:56 > 0:38:59These papers have been making out that MPs don't care about animals.
0:38:59 > 0:39:01And millions of people have been reading and sharing stuff
0:39:01 > 0:39:03like this on social media.
0:39:03 > 0:39:10Celebrities have been tweeting about it.
0:39:10 > 0:39:13And hundreds of thousands of people have signed petitions.
0:39:13 > 0:39:14That's not the full story.
0:39:14 > 0:39:16MPs didn't vote to say that animals don't have feelings.
0:39:16 > 0:39:17They're calling this fake news.
0:39:17 > 0:39:20And the Minister Michael Gove says the reporting was wrong.
0:39:20 > 0:39:22The Independent newspaper's changed its story, and some
0:39:22 > 0:39:25of the tweets have been taken down.
0:39:25 > 0:39:27So how did all this come about?
0:39:27 > 0:39:29We need to go back a bit to understand what's
0:39:29 > 0:39:31actually happened here.
0:39:31 > 0:39:33The idea that animals are capable of feeling pain and suffering
0:39:33 > 0:39:36is called animal sentience, and has been a really big
0:39:36 > 0:39:41thing for campaigners in the animal rights movement.
0:39:41 > 0:39:43Back in the '80s and '90s, campaigners decided the rules
0:39:43 > 0:39:45on animal welfare weren't up to scratch.
0:39:45 > 0:39:47Like the way live animals are transported, or the way
0:39:47 > 0:39:49they're slaughtered.
0:39:49 > 0:39:51Or how battery farmed hens are kept.
0:39:51 > 0:39:54So they fought a long battle to get the European Union to recognise
0:39:54 > 0:39:56animals as sentient beings, and even celebrities got involved.
0:39:56 > 0:39:58Campaigners started a petition that got 1 million signatures.
0:39:58 > 0:40:04Which wasn't easy back then before the Internet.
0:40:04 > 0:40:06And the EU did take notice.
0:40:06 > 0:40:09The rule on animal sentience was finally written into an EU
0:40:09 > 0:40:12treaty, the Lisbon Treaty, in 2009.
0:40:12 > 0:40:15It was a big win for animal welfare, a real victory for campaigners.
0:40:15 > 0:40:18But now, because we're leaving the EU, the UK won't be bound
0:40:18 > 0:40:20by these rules any more.
0:40:20 > 0:40:23So campaigners wanted to transfer the rules on animal sentience
0:40:23 > 0:40:26from the EU treaty into UK law, so it would still be
0:40:26 > 0:40:29there after Brexit.
0:40:29 > 0:40:31The Green Party MP Caroline Lucas tried to persuade everyone
0:40:31 > 0:40:34that this was a good idea.
0:40:34 > 0:40:36But Conservative MPs voted against it and it was turned down.
0:40:36 > 0:40:40And that's where the row started.
0:40:40 > 0:40:44But most MPs believe, even without the EU treaty,
0:40:44 > 0:40:46animal protection won't be affected because they say animal sentience
0:40:46 > 0:40:49is already covered in UK law in the Animal Welfare Act, so it's
0:40:49 > 0:40:54just not true to say that MPs voted that animals don't have feelings.
0:40:54 > 0:40:58But campaigners aren't convinced.
0:40:58 > 0:41:01And they still believe an important principle is being lost.
0:41:01 > 0:41:04Michael Gove, the minister in charge of farming,
0:41:04 > 0:41:07has said he will strengthen animal welfare rules and that there
0:41:07 > 0:41:13won't be a gap in our laws after we leave the EU.
0:41:13 > 0:41:15And joining me now is the Green Party's Home Affairs
0:41:15 > 0:41:17Spokesperson Shahrar Ali and the Conservative
0:41:17 > 0:41:21MP Zac Goldsmith.
0:41:21 > 0:41:27Welcome. The Government says the amendment put down by Caroline Lucas
0:41:27 > 0:41:32was faulty, it wasn't good enough, and they will bring forward any
0:41:32 > 0:41:36legislation to make the UK a world leader on animal welfare. What's
0:41:36 > 0:41:43wrong with that?It's a good job we put that amendment. If you were
0:41:43 > 0:41:46really worried about the detail of the amendment and thought it was
0:41:46 > 0:41:51worth doing you would amend it. This is a vital, important piece of
0:41:51 > 0:41:55legislation. There is a difference between acknowledging animals can
0:41:55 > 0:42:02feel pain and that they are 70 and creatures. That goes far further
0:42:02 > 0:42:11than their capacity to suffer. -- sentient creatures. The animal
0:42:11 > 0:42:17welfare act of 2006 does not subscribe to this. It mentions
0:42:17 > 0:42:21sentience in the preamble, but it does not mention it specifically.Do
0:42:21 > 0:42:25you think there was inaccurate reporting of this amendment which
0:42:25 > 0:42:29implied the Government doesn't accept animals feel pain?I accept
0:42:29 > 0:42:34there has been misreporting. But you must look at what is being reported.
0:42:34 > 0:42:38Was that misreported?You must make a distinction between where people
0:42:38 > 0:42:43are voting against -- were people voting against sentience, or were
0:42:43 > 0:42:50they voting against the act which protects it, which had sentience at
0:42:50 > 0:43:01its core. The reason it has become controversial is because sentience
0:43:01 > 0:43:07is an established proof about animals. It would be a good
0:43:07 > 0:43:11candidate for what is currently being described as fake news that
0:43:11 > 0:43:16MPs voted against the idea of animal sentience.Is it important that
0:43:16 > 0:43:22animal sentience is recognised in law?Yes. There isn't a single MP in
0:43:22 > 0:43:24any party in any corner of this country that doesn't believe animals
0:43:24 > 0:43:30are sentient. If you look at the transcript of the debate we are
0:43:30 > 0:43:34talking about, that was acknowledged by every person who contributed on
0:43:34 > 0:43:39this issue to that debate. There was no debate about sentience. The
0:43:39 > 0:43:43Government's problem was the wording of the amendment. It's not just
0:43:43 > 0:43:50raising animal welfare standards, which we are doing, there is a
0:43:50 > 0:43:53complicit in a clear statement we've had from Michael Gove that we will
0:43:53 > 0:43:57find the best route to make sure sentience is incorporated into UK
0:43:57 > 0:44:02law. There's a disagreement whether Richard B in the withdrawal bill, in
0:44:02 > 0:44:05a forthcoming animal welfare Bill, whether we should be amending
0:44:05 > 0:44:09previous bills, or whether there should be an environment bill. --
0:44:09 > 0:44:16whether it is the withdrawal bill. This story is fake news because
0:44:16 > 0:44:19nothing has changed. It doesn't matter how we do that, as long as we
0:44:19 > 0:44:25do it and we will do it.You do accept that the 2006 animal welfare
0:44:25 > 0:44:31act does not go far enough? It doesn't cover all animals, for
0:44:31 > 0:44:36example, laboratory animals, or wild animals. And it puts the onus on
0:44:36 > 0:44:39owners of animals, but not on the Government, do you accept that is an
0:44:39 > 0:44:43inadequate law?
0:44:43 > 0:44:47Not only do I access it but Michael Gove access it as well, his
0:44:47 > 0:44:57statement makes that clear. -- we both accept this. I just want to
0:44:57 > 0:45:00make the thing, symbolically, sentience needs to be recognised but
0:45:00 > 0:45:04let's not pretend this is a high benchmark that emanates from the
0:45:04 > 0:45:09European Union. Under the protection of that law, we have bull-fighting,
0:45:09 > 0:45:15and veal farming, beyond cruel, factory farming conditions, we have
0:45:15 > 0:45:17donkey torture, fur farming, one of the worst things imaginable are
0:45:17 > 0:45:24permitted under this principle. Our standards have always been high and
0:45:24 > 0:45:29we have had seen fireworks as they of activity in the last four months,
0:45:29 > 0:45:34putting animal welfare at the heart of the environment. We have been
0:45:34 > 0:45:39raising sentencing to people who are cruel to animals, I could go on for
0:45:39 > 0:45:4320 minutes.You have gone on for quite a long time. Passionate though
0:45:43 > 0:45:49you are. Do you accept that, it's the case that you just don't trust
0:45:49 > 0:45:52the Conservative government, which you may not to back their words with
0:45:52 > 0:45:55action with any new legislation which has put forward, or really
0:45:55 > 0:46:01have just misjudged this row?I accept that Zac Goldsmith and
0:46:01 > 0:46:06Michael Gove as well do come across and probably do personally have a
0:46:06 > 0:46:08great commitment to animal welfare and animal rights. The problem is,
0:46:08 > 0:46:13what people are incredulous about is on the one hand trying to claim that
0:46:13 > 0:46:18we believe that animals have sentience, on the other hand, not
0:46:18 > 0:46:23committing to this amendment which would have us commit to ensuring
0:46:23 > 0:46:27that that was in any future policy on this matter. So I don't I accept
0:46:27 > 0:46:33that this is not real news, that people are incredulous and emotional
0:46:33 > 0:46:38and upset and angry that we are not prepared to say on EU legislation
0:46:38 > 0:46:42which was originally spearheaded by the UK, that of course, we will be
0:46:42 > 0:46:46committing to this today.Why not? If you, and he made a very personal
0:46:46 > 0:46:53offence there of the UK Government in terms of its standards, if you
0:46:53 > 0:46:57all government is so committed to welfare, why doesn't the government
0:46:57 > 0:47:01put its money where its mouth is through the EU withdrawal bill, why
0:47:01 > 0:47:04isn't that an adequate instrument to put in place the things that you
0:47:04 > 0:47:09have talked about, bring over the EU law, that the point of the bill.I
0:47:09 > 0:47:12have been an MP for nearly seven years and I've never been a defender
0:47:12 > 0:47:18of the government's record on environment or welfare. The last
0:47:18 > 0:47:21four months have been different. Answer the question, why not use the
0:47:21 > 0:47:27EU withdrawal bill?There was no argued about the sentiment in the
0:47:27 > 0:47:30amendment, the principles were accented by the MPs that spoke and
0:47:30 > 0:47:35the government.But they did not vote, to be accurate, you are right
0:47:35 > 0:47:38in saying that nobody voted that animals are not sentience because
0:47:38 > 0:47:44that wasn't up for a vote that they did not vote that they were so you
0:47:44 > 0:47:47can see how the impression came from a story that actually the government
0:47:47 > 0:47:54and its MPs did not support this idea that animals are sentience, why
0:47:54 > 0:48:03not use the EU withdraw Bill is the better to deal with it now?We we
0:48:03 > 0:48:09are committed to legislate for animal sentience, that is for the
0:48:09 > 0:48:14government to do, we have been told in a written statement that there
0:48:14 > 0:48:19will be no gaps between us leaving the EU and this. We are not having
0:48:19 > 0:48:22to be dragged to do this, the commitment is there. I don't member
0:48:22 > 0:48:28a single piece...Hang on, it's quite got to stop you in your flow.
0:48:28 > 0:48:35This really does not wash. The public, animal welfare campaigners,
0:48:35 > 0:48:38sick and tired of politicians not putting their money where their
0:48:38 > 0:48:42mouth is. This was a golden opportunity for us to demonstrate
0:48:42 > 0:48:47our commitment, not just in words but indeed, to say that this part of
0:48:47 > 0:48:50the legislation which the UK spearheaded, and obligate the
0:48:50 > 0:48:53government, not just owners and keepers of animals, obligated the
0:48:53 > 0:48:57government and puts the urgency upon them, and the default on them, to
0:48:57 > 0:49:01actually commit to this, that would be a commitment, this was not a
0:49:01 > 0:49:06commitment.But that's the thing. The commitment is there. I don't
0:49:06 > 0:49:10know what more is being asked of Michael Gove.The vote.In a
0:49:10 > 0:49:14ministerial statement, I don't remember a single piece of
0:49:14 > 0:49:18legislation where an opposition amendment has been tabled, in the
0:49:18 > 0:49:21last seven years, whether sentiment is accepted but the government has
0:49:21 > 0:49:26not chosen to come back with its own version. That is what happened. This
0:49:26 > 0:49:30is not unusual, you know this as a presenter of a political programme,
0:49:30 > 0:49:35this is bog-standard stuff.My views are not important.That's how
0:49:35 > 0:49:38legislation is improved, that's the whole point.We are in different
0:49:38 > 0:49:44water to the EU withdrawal bill and Brexit. Social media, Michael Gove
0:49:44 > 0:49:49said this media that social media corrupts and distort reporting and
0:49:49 > 0:49:52decision making. He obviously feels this on this issue, has he got a
0:49:52 > 0:49:56point?He has a certain point to the extent that one of the fascinating
0:49:56 > 0:50:00things about this is that normally government, the mode of government
0:50:00 > 0:50:04is to respond to pressure from media if they open the newspapers, they
0:50:04 > 0:50:07see the front page of the Daily Mail, particularly for the
0:50:07 > 0:50:10Conservatives, maybe the Guardian if it's Labour, they see the front
0:50:10 > 0:50:14pages after the budget and it's bad news, they're being attacked, they
0:50:14 > 0:50:18think, we have to respond. This was not noticed by any of that. This is
0:50:18 > 0:50:24only about 24 or 48 hours later that he started to see through Facebook
0:50:24 > 0:50:28this outflow of anger and that turned into e-mails arriving in MP
0:50:28 > 0:50:34's inboxes. The fact is, all kinds of journalists and media outlets
0:50:34 > 0:50:37have distorted and Mr pedantic and applied partisan agendas, true on
0:50:37 > 0:50:44print and in Facebook two -- they have distorted and put their own
0:50:44 > 0:50:49bias on it. But Facebook amplifies this so massively, that something
0:50:49 > 0:50:54like this can suddenly hit Parliament like tidal wave. That is
0:50:54 > 0:51:00much more adjusting than this question. This is a non-argument. --
0:51:00 > 0:51:04this is much more interesting than this question.The government has
0:51:04 > 0:51:07responded, they were busy taken back by the wealth of comment on social
0:51:07 > 0:51:11media.There was a very bad headline in the Independent which was
0:51:11 > 0:51:15basically a lie, so let's not... They did rewrite it.But it was
0:51:15 > 0:51:23because of Facebook.I find this whole row of taxing. This --
0:51:23 > 0:51:27perplexing. This business sentience, why is it so important? On the one
0:51:27 > 0:51:33hand, everybody agrees that animals feel pain and distress. And every
0:51:33 > 0:51:39piece of government legislation since time in Memorial, to promote
0:51:39 > 0:51:42animal welfare, implicitly understand that animals feel pain.
0:51:42 > 0:51:48Do you have do incorporate all animals?Hume need perhaps to widen
0:51:48 > 0:51:53your groups of animals. Basically if the government accepts that
0:51:53 > 0:51:56sentience is there anyway, why is it so determined to prevent this
0:51:56 > 0:52:02legislation? On the contrary, where the greens are so determined to put
0:52:02 > 0:52:09sentience in, and what you said, that is the evidence, you said, the
0:52:09 > 0:52:12evidence is that sentience goes further than feeling pain. Sentience
0:52:12 > 0:52:15is not just feeling pain and distress, which we all agreed must
0:52:15 > 0:52:21not happen to animals, sentience gets us into this metaphysical area
0:52:21 > 0:52:26of, our animals as conscious as we are? Do they feel...Have you taking
0:52:26 > 0:52:33it too far?That takes us into the area of equating animals and humans.
0:52:33 > 0:52:38There is a debate worth having about what level of respect and value we
0:52:38 > 0:52:43accord to our fellow animals. Nonhuman animals. And part of the
0:52:43 > 0:52:48reason my sentience is so critical, because there have been established
0:52:48 > 0:52:50scientific and psychological studies which demonstrate that pain, the
0:52:50 > 0:52:54lowest level of psychological response, is an insufficient way of
0:52:54 > 0:52:57describing the inner life of animals in terms of emotions, the capacity
0:52:57 > 0:53:03to suffer. The very fact that Melanie is questioning how to define
0:53:03 > 0:53:06sentience demonstrates that we should have that as a threshold.
0:53:06 > 0:53:10This fills me with concern because the inner life of animals takes us
0:53:10 > 0:53:13straight into the analogy between animals and humans which devalues
0:53:13 > 0:53:19humans.I think you can say that is a red herring.What is your take on
0:53:19 > 0:53:25this final point?It a nice academic debate, the reality is that there is
0:53:25 > 0:53:29no gap to wear Michael Gove is and where the Green party spokesman is,
0:53:29 > 0:53:33we are putting sentience into UK's law, Michael Gove's payment could
0:53:33 > 0:53:39not be more clear. I will take one more point. I have only got a black
0:53:39 > 0:53:44screen so I don't know who the previous commentator was, this
0:53:44 > 0:53:48avalanche of social media, it has taken us by surprise, no doubt. On
0:53:48 > 0:53:52one level it's infuriating, because it is on the back of fake news put
0:53:52 > 0:53:55out by the intended which has been corrected, but on another level,
0:53:55 > 0:54:01it's a wonderful refection of Britain. That this issue of animal
0:54:01 > 0:54:03welfare matters so much to similar millions of people which is a good
0:54:03 > 0:54:08thing. Even if the context is fake news, it's a good thing, it makes me
0:54:08 > 0:54:15half happy.At least you have left are happy to tribute. That recruit
0:54:15 > 0:54:18you have left us a happy contributor.
0:54:18 > 0:54:20Former Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale has
0:54:20 > 0:54:22defended her decision to appear on the TV Show I'm A Celebrity
0:54:22 > 0:54:25Get Me Out of Here, saying it is "an amazing opportunity
0:54:25 > 0:54:28to talk to young people who watch this programme about politics and,
0:54:28 > 0:54:29in particular, Labour values".
0:54:29 > 0:54:32Well, the jury's still out on whether that's going to plan
0:54:32 > 0:54:34following her first appearance in the jungle last night.
0:54:34 > 0:54:35KLAXON BLARES.
0:54:35 > 0:54:36Come on!
0:54:36 > 0:54:37Go on, guys!
0:54:37 > 0:54:39Into Sickola Sturgeon, the first box.
0:54:39 > 0:54:40Go on, Kez!
0:54:40 > 0:54:42Oh, both of them, though.
0:54:42 > 0:54:45Fish guts in there, they're looking for that first red star.
0:54:45 > 0:54:48Come on, Kez!
0:54:48 > 0:54:49Oh, it's freezing!
0:54:49 > 0:54:50This is rank!
0:54:50 > 0:54:53Where the hell is it?
0:54:53 > 0:54:55Come on, Kez.
0:54:55 > 0:54:57Come on, girl.
0:54:57 > 0:54:59What have they got in those boxes?
0:54:59 > 0:55:01Raw meat and fish guts.
0:55:01 > 0:55:02A red star, you say?
0:55:02 > 0:55:03Red star.
0:55:03 > 0:55:04Definitely red?
0:55:04 > 0:55:05Definitely red.
0:55:05 > 0:55:08Red star at night, celebrity's delight.
0:55:08 > 0:55:11Ian has his and it's in his bag, he's into Margaret Scratcher.
0:55:11 > 0:55:13Margaret Scratcher!
0:55:13 > 0:55:18Oh, she can't find it!
0:55:18 > 0:55:21That was Kezia Dugdale, and to discuss how she did we're
0:55:21 > 0:55:23joined from Glasgow by the arts and film critic and devoted I'm
0:55:23 > 0:55:25a Celebrity fan Siobhan Synnott.
0:55:25 > 0:55:34That has put me off my lunch! Are you a devoted fan of I'm A
0:55:34 > 0:55:39Celebrity? Hat so how did she do? I'm a big fan of her, but I'm only
0:55:39 > 0:55:45slightly worried that if Kezia takes off, we will see Alex Salmond on
0:55:45 > 0:55:54Love Island. She has guts, that was not a pleasant task. But she took on
0:55:54 > 0:55:57the job of leader of the Scottish Labour Party when nobody wanted it
0:55:57 > 0:56:01and a tarantula would be tasty in comparison.So why would you put
0:56:01 > 0:56:05yourself through this, having been to the travails of Labour leader in
0:56:05 > 0:56:10Scotland?I think this is puzzling everybody. I don't think Kezia
0:56:10 > 0:56:14Dugdale is steely strategist, I think this is an impulsive move. It
0:56:14 > 0:56:18may do her no harm. There's been talk about whether this is a
0:56:18 > 0:56:21humiliation but I think it depends very much on how you rise to the
0:56:21 > 0:56:28occasion. She's been a good sport, she went through the ten Downing
0:56:28 > 0:56:32creep humiliations well, she emerged with character when he was voted
0:56:32 > 0:56:37into looking after the cleaning duties, as she said, rather meekly,
0:56:37 > 0:56:41she has gone from prospective Prime Minister to domestic Danny duties
0:56:41 > 0:56:47and she did it with a smile. She may come out of it well. The key to
0:56:47 > 0:56:50getting through these reality shows if you are politician is not to be
0:56:50 > 0:56:53pompous, not to be self enchanted, and not to take yourself too
0:56:53 > 0:56:58seriously.On that advice, do you think, I love this idea that she
0:56:58 > 0:57:01might be able to promote socialist Labour values by being on this
0:57:01 > 0:57:07programme, do you think that will work? Sorry, I will, given a second!
0:57:07 > 0:57:13I doubt very much that there will be much theoretical discussion of the
0:57:13 > 0:57:17Marxist models...It depends how they spit up their duties!The
0:57:17 > 0:57:22reality is, Kezia Dugdale worked very hard, gave some of the best
0:57:22 > 0:57:27years of her still young life to the terrible, painful grind of leading
0:57:27 > 0:57:31the Scottish Labour Party at a difficult time and she's clearly see
0:57:31 > 0:57:33this opportunity, thinks it might be a bit of fun, change public
0:57:33 > 0:57:43perceptions of her, she has probably got the memory of Ed Balls changing
0:57:43 > 0:57:47his perception, she didn't promote neoclassical growth theory by doing
0:57:47 > 0:57:51the salsa.May be he would have won if he had done that! Do you think
0:57:51 > 0:57:59she will last?I think she has a new career beckoning.In what?
0:57:59 > 0:58:06Unspeakable acts!Can she win?She is 40 to one against, and 4-1 out
0:58:06 > 0:58:13first, Amir Khan was a rank outsider until he completed one of the tasks
0:58:13 > 0:58:17and impress the audience and now she hears one of the favourites, so come
0:58:17 > 0:58:23on, Kezia, a few more fish guts and you could be onto a winner. What
0:58:23 > 0:58:26will happen next for Kezia is the interesting thing. At the moment she
0:58:26 > 0:58:30wants to come back and immediately start voting again in Holyrood at
0:58:30 > 0:58:34the end of her stint in the jungle, but three weeks is a long time. She
0:58:34 > 0:58:41may find that she's been offered some appetising prospect. I'm
0:58:41 > 0:58:48reminded of the World War I song, how do you keep them down on the
0:58:48 > 0:58:51farm if they have seen the Harvard? I think you have enjoyed this far
0:58:51 > 0:58:57too much! Thank you to all of my guests.
0:58:57 > 0:59:02I will go back on Monday, goodbye.