0:00:38 > 0:00:43Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:43 > 0:00:45The Government's publishing its industrial strategy today,
0:00:45 > 0:00:48alongside an announcement that two big pharmaceutical firms are to
0:00:48 > 0:00:51invest more than £1 billion in the UK.
0:00:51 > 0:00:58Will it be enough to turn around the UK's sluggish growth prospects?
0:00:58 > 0:01:03We will look at the political reaction to the other big news - as
0:01:03 > 0:01:08it is announced that Prince Harry is to marry the actress, Meghan Markle.
0:01:10 > 0:01:12New Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson will answer
0:01:12 > 0:01:14questions from MPs for the first time this afternoon,
0:01:14 > 0:01:16amid reports he's facing a growing Tory rebellion over cuts
0:01:16 > 0:01:18to the Armed Forces.
0:01:18 > 0:01:21Some Labour MPs aren't happy at being asked to sign what's
0:01:21 > 0:01:24being a called a 'loyalty test' by the Jeremy Cobyn-supporting
0:01:24 > 0:01:25group Momentum.
0:01:25 > 0:01:27Is this part of a sinister plot, or an innocent way
0:01:27 > 0:01:32to hold MPs to account?
0:01:32 > 0:01:35And we'll be taking a look at what's thought to be one of the most
0:01:35 > 0:01:38photographed Christmas trees in the world - it's travelled
0:01:38 > 0:01:42hundreds of miles and it's just gone up outside the Houses of Parliament.
0:01:45 > 0:01:48All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole
0:01:48 > 0:01:52of the programme today two MPs who've managed to take a short break
0:01:52 > 0:01:54from planning their Royal engagement parties -
0:01:54 > 0:01:56it's Labour's Kate Hoey and the Conservative Paul Masterson.
0:01:56 > 0:02:01Welcome to the show both of you.
0:02:01 > 0:02:04So, it's the announcement an expectant nation has been
0:02:04 > 0:02:06waiting for for months, breathless with excitement.
0:02:06 > 0:02:08No, not the Government's industrial strategy -
0:02:08 > 0:02:11although we'll be talking about that in a moment - but the even more
0:02:11 > 0:02:13long-awaited engagement between Prince Harry
0:02:13 > 0:02:17and the American actress Meghan Markle.
0:02:17 > 0:02:22The party leaders have been offering their congratulations,
0:02:22 > 0:02:25the Prime Minister said on Twitter, "I would like to offer my very
0:02:25 > 0:02:27warmest congratulations to HRH Prince Harry and Meghan Markle
0:02:27 > 0:02:31upon their engagement.
0:02:38 > 0:02:42And Jeremy Corbyn was asked about it on a visit to Scotland.
0:02:45 > 0:02:49First of all, my congratulations to them. I wish them well. I hope they
0:02:49 > 0:02:53have a great time and great fun together. Having met Harry a couple
0:02:53 > 0:02:58of times, I am sure they'll have a great deal of fun together. What
0:02:58 > 0:03:04about you? Are you planning to buy your hat soon?I am pleased the
0:03:04 > 0:03:06engagement's happened because we have all waited for this and it
0:03:06 > 0:03:11takes up a lot of media interest. I, like any couple getting engaged - it
0:03:11 > 0:03:20is great. Cob gratlations to them. -- congratulations to them. Prince
0:03:20 > 0:03:25Harry has changed his image and done so much. I was involved with the
0:03:25 > 0:03:30Invictus Games and he really was so good with athletes and I think this
0:03:30 > 0:03:38will be welcomed by everyone. He, I think Jeremy was pleased too,
0:03:38 > 0:03:41because he's an Arsenal supporter and Prince Harry is apparently an
0:03:41 > 0:03:47Arsenal supporter.You are telling me a lot of things I don't know! I
0:03:47 > 0:03:52what about the effect it will have on the nation?I think it will be a
0:03:52 > 0:03:56nice, positive mood for poo emto look forward to. When we look back
0:03:56 > 0:04:00to William and Kate and my wife and I made the trip from Scotland to sit
0:04:00 > 0:04:05by the Mall. It is a nice, happy occasion. There is a lot of doom and
0:04:05 > 0:04:10gloom. It is something the nation will be happy with.I am sure
0:04:10 > 0:04:15Theresa May will be happy too. He's changed the tone of the Royal Family
0:04:15 > 0:04:19- he and his brother talking openly about the grief of losing their
0:04:19 > 0:04:25mother. Has that changed the image of the Royal Family?Prince Harry
0:04:25 > 0:04:30and William have allowed people into the Royal Family, see them growing
0:04:30 > 0:04:36up, feel the Royal Family is more modernised.I think they are
0:04:36 > 0:04:40appealing to the younger generation, which is something we needed to
0:04:40 > 0:04:45happen to make sure. Because I am a great royalist, you see. I want to
0:04:45 > 0:04:52see the Royal Family be successful. I think this is good.Now
0:04:52 > 0:04:54Now to the other big news of the day, if perhaps
0:04:54 > 0:04:56if perhaps not quite as big -
0:04:56 > 0:04:57it's the Government's long-awaited industrial strategy.
0:04:57 > 0:05:00Details of the plan, which is designed to show how
0:05:00 > 0:05:02Government funding and policy can boost investment from private
0:05:02 > 0:05:04firms, will be announced in the Commons later today.
0:05:04 > 0:05:06Alongside the launch, two pharmaceutical firms have said
0:05:06 > 0:05:09they will invest more than £1 billion in the UK, creating
0:05:09 > 0:05:12about 1,850 jobs.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15The company MSD will support a new research centre in London,
0:05:15 > 0:05:17while German's Qiagen will develop a genomics and diagnostics
0:05:17 > 0:05:21campus in Manchester.
0:05:21 > 0:05:26Here's Business Minister Greg Clark welcoming the news.
0:05:26 > 0:05:32Well, this is going to act on all of the contributions to improving
0:05:32 > 0:05:35productivity, so getting the best research and development. We have
0:05:35 > 0:05:40got the best kit across the country. Making sure that we invest more in
0:05:40 > 0:05:45skills that are needed in training, transport connections. We need to
0:05:45 > 0:05:50connect better our towns and cities across the country. To make sure we
0:05:50 > 0:05:53respect the fact that different places need different things. And so
0:05:53 > 0:05:56we are going to bring them all together in a long-term plan that
0:05:56 > 0:06:00can make sure that Britain takes advantage of the opportunities of
0:06:00 > 0:06:04the new industries of the future.
0:06:07 > 0:06:12Simon, how much interest will there be in this Government's industrial
0:06:12 > 0:06:15strategy when we've had the announcement of a royal engagement?
0:06:15 > 0:06:20I wonder if there was a call to number ten saying, I wonder if you
0:06:20 > 0:06:26mind us to announce this today. He thought he was up against the
0:06:26 > 0:06:31volcano in Bali, now there's the royal engagement. This document has
0:06:31 > 0:06:35taken two years to putting to. Five sectors, five levers the Government
0:06:35 > 0:06:42can pull. The idiot's guide is this - the Government chucks in money,
0:06:42 > 0:06:46aligns some academic institutions around it, puts money into skills
0:06:46 > 0:06:50and crucially allows the sectors a test-bed to twrie out their new
0:06:50 > 0:06:54stuff. For life sense r sciences that could mean early adoption of
0:06:54 > 0:07:01new medicines for the NHS. For the sector it could mean driverless
0:07:01 > 0:07:08cars. Hey presto, public investment ensues. They were looking at this as
0:07:08 > 0:07:11the industrial strategy in action. And basically it's been in the
0:07:11 > 0:07:16pipeline for a while. It became all the more urgent after we had that
0:07:16 > 0:07:19assessment of Britain's economic prospects from the Chancellor and
0:07:19 > 0:07:22the OBR last week. They said this is something we should do, anyway. It
0:07:22 > 0:07:26is getting more urgent and with Brexit around the corner it is
0:07:26 > 0:07:29something the Government should get involved in. You will remember
0:07:29 > 0:07:33previous Tory Governments would have run a mile using the words
0:07:33 > 0:07:36industrial strategy, with all the memories of failed Government
0:07:36 > 0:07:41interventions. This Government is unapologetic saying we can play a
0:07:41 > 0:07:44role and get things going, with Brexit around the corner the need is
0:07:44 > 0:07:52as urgent as ever.The figures of productivity and growth will this be
0:07:52 > 0:07:55transformative in reversing the fortunes of the UK industry?I was
0:07:55 > 0:08:00at the institute with the Secretary of State today - this is a
0:08:00 > 0:08:01high-tech, high-skilled, productivity area. Most of the
0:08:01 > 0:08:04country is not like that. The challenge for the Government will be
0:08:04 > 0:08:10to look at if areas of the economy where people are more likely to
0:08:10 > 0:08:14drive white vans than wear white coats - hospitality, retail - they
0:08:14 > 0:08:18are more difficult to get at. They are the bits he has to refresh the
0:08:18 > 0:08:22parts of the economy that this industrial strategy might not reach.
0:08:22 > 0:08:25The big banner... There'll be a pipeline of announcements, which
0:08:25 > 0:08:29will say, look it is all working, just as we had with Nissan, if you
0:08:29 > 0:08:33remember. He went to Nissan and provided reassurances and got a big
0:08:33 > 0:08:37amounted of investment there. Since then, investment in car
0:08:37 > 0:08:39manufacturing has gone down sharply. It will be very interesting to see
0:08:39 > 0:08:43if they can keep up the momentum of this investment. Everyone thinks it
0:08:43 > 0:08:48is welcome. Will it unhelp unlock the pro-tuckive of the economy,
0:08:48 > 0:08:53which is the lion's share of it? Thank you. Is it little, too little,
0:08:53 > 0:08:59a lot too late?I don't think so. Think I what this document does is
0:08:59 > 0:09:02recognise the world is moving quickly. As a country we need to
0:09:02 > 0:09:07make sure we are at the forefront or we will get left behind. It is a
0:09:07 > 0:09:11clear plan for the Government to invest in key sectors where we have
0:09:11 > 0:09:16huge potential and make sure we are at the forefront and pick up on the
0:09:16 > 0:09:18productivity, growth and skills issues, which were highlighted
0:09:18 > 0:09:27there.Kate Hoey, Michael Heseltine, a former minister said the best way
0:09:27 > 0:09:30is by stopping Brexit?I would expect someone like Michael
0:09:30 > 0:09:35Heseltine to say exactly that. I think what he should be saying today
0:09:35 > 0:09:39is, brilliant, we are seeing a large, two large pharmaceutical
0:09:39 > 0:09:42companies really investing huge amounts of money in this country at
0:09:42 > 0:09:49a time when people like him are saying no-one wants to invest. I
0:09:49 > 0:09:52mean, it's an industrial strategy, we've had them before. It is what
0:09:52 > 0:09:56happens on the ground, but the new technology and money going into
0:09:56 > 0:09:59making sure we are keeping up with the rest of the world and being
0:09:59 > 0:10:04ahead of the rest of the world is important.We are not ahead in terms
0:10:04 > 0:10:07of productivity and slower growth. In terms of investing is really
0:10:07 > 0:10:12important. The key thing for me and I was worried last week when I heard
0:10:12 > 0:10:16the figures on apprenticeships because it has not gone up, it has
0:10:16 > 0:10:20gone down. It is crucial. It has to be a key part of any industrial
0:10:20 > 0:10:24strategy.The industrial strategy will be influenced by Brexit,
0:10:24 > 0:10:28clearly since that is the biggest decision that the Government is
0:10:28 > 0:10:32grappling with. Again, I ask you, what do you say to Michael Heseltine
0:10:32 > 0:10:36saying the best way to promote industrial strategy and reverse
0:10:36 > 0:10:39slower growth and downgraded productivity figures is to stop
0:10:39 > 0:10:45Brexit?That is over dramatic. Brexit changes Britain's place in
0:10:45 > 0:10:49the world and we need to decide what sort of country we want to be post
0:10:49 > 0:10:54Brexit. Do we want to be dynamic, at the forefront, able to attract the
0:10:54 > 0:10:58best and brightest from the world or will we meander through? The
0:10:58 > 0:11:02strategy is a clear strategy for the Government in saying, yes, Brexit
0:11:02 > 0:11:05changes things, but we will utilise what opportunities there are from
0:11:05 > 0:11:09that.Do you think it is difficult for companies to decide whether to
0:11:09 > 0:11:12invest and when to invest when they say they don't know the shape of
0:11:12 > 0:11:19Brexit?From the north of the border we saw the run up in the border
0:11:19 > 0:11:23referendum and it did place a hinder rens on investment decisions. It is
0:11:23 > 0:11:28wise we move to this next round of talks getting clarity.
0:11:30 > 0:11:32Now it's time for our Daily Quiz.
0:11:32 > 0:11:34And as today is apparently one of the busiest shopping
0:11:34 > 0:11:36days before Christmas, we might be able to help
0:11:36 > 0:11:38because the questions is, which party leader
0:11:38 > 0:11:39has been immortalised,
0:11:39 > 0:11:42if that's the right word, with their own annual?
0:11:42 > 0:11:44The perfect stocking filler for someone you don't
0:11:44 > 0:11:46particularly like.
0:11:46 > 0:11:47Is it, A.
0:11:47 > 0:11:49Theresa May?
0:11:49 > 0:11:50B.
0:11:50 > 0:11:51Vince Cable?
0:11:51 > 0:11:52C.
0:11:52 > 0:11:53Jeremy Corbyn?
0:11:53 > 0:11:54D.
0:11:54 > 0:11:55Arlene Foster?
0:11:55 > 0:12:04At the end of the show Paul and Kate will give us the correct answer.
0:12:04 > 0:12:09Let's turn to Brexit, as there's been plenty of discussion over the
0:12:09 > 0:12:13weekend about the future of the Irish border and how that affects
0:12:13 > 0:12:15the negotiations in Brussels.
0:12:15 > 0:12:17Theresa May has made clear her desire to move
0:12:17 > 0:12:19onto trade talks with the EU at the December summit.
0:12:19 > 0:12:22But, the EU won't move on until "real progress" has been
0:12:22 > 0:12:25made on the Irish border issue - and have set a deadline
0:12:25 > 0:12:27of 4th December. and have set a deadline
0:12:27 > 0:12:30As a continuing EU member state, Ireland has a veto
0:12:30 > 0:12:34on whether the EU-UK talks can progress on to trade.
0:12:34 > 0:12:37And Leo Varadkar, the Irish Prime Minister -
0:12:37 > 0:12:39wants a written guarantee that there will be no hard border
0:12:39 > 0:12:43between Ireland and Northern Ireland.
0:12:43 > 0:12:46But International Trade Secretary Liam Fox said this weekend that
0:12:46 > 0:12:48a final decision on the future of the border between
0:12:48 > 0:12:51Northern Ireland and the Republic can not be decided until the UK
0:12:51 > 0:12:57knows what sort of trade deal it will have with the EU.
0:12:57 > 0:13:00The two governments also disagree over what a future trading
0:13:00 > 0:13:05relationship between Ireland and the UK should look like.
0:13:05 > 0:13:10Irish European commissioner Phil Hogan told the Observer
0:13:10 > 0:13:13newspaper yesterday that it was "a very simple
0:13:13 > 0:13:18fact" that remaining in the single market -
0:13:18 > 0:13:21or allowing Northern Ireland to do so, would end the stand-off.
0:13:21 > 0:13:24But, Theresa May has repeatedly said Britain will leave the single
0:13:24 > 0:13:25market and customs union.
0:13:25 > 0:13:31I am joined now by Mr Richmond, who is the spokesman on EU affairs.
0:13:31 > 0:13:36Welcome to the programme Neil. Just before I come to you, Kate Hoey,
0:13:36 > 0:13:40there's been no detail from the UK on how the Northern Irish border can
0:13:40 > 0:13:43work. The Irish Government wants certainty. What is wrong with that?
0:13:43 > 0:13:47. I think they could play a greater part in getting that certainty
0:13:47 > 0:13:50because there is no real reason why, with goodwill and political will,
0:13:50 > 0:13:53that we cannot work out a situation where certainly there's no problem
0:13:53 > 0:13:59with people moving. We've had a common travel area since 1921. There
0:13:59 > 0:14:05is no problem with that. With trade, there are all sorts of
0:14:05 > 0:14:08technological, electronic reasons, ways of doing it. The Republic of
0:14:08 > 0:14:13Ireland is going to be actually even worse off if they veto this and we
0:14:13 > 0:14:17end up with a no deal because they are going to suffer even more. So I
0:14:17 > 0:14:21really think what the Republic of Ireland should be doing is being
0:14:21 > 0:14:25positive, working with us and not trying to play this sort of idea
0:14:25 > 0:14:29that they are going to be stopping things happening because they don't
0:14:29 > 0:14:33like the fact that people have left. But the bottom line to me is very
0:14:33 > 0:14:36clear - there's no way Northern Ireland will be treated differently
0:14:36 > 0:14:41from the rest of the UK. Do you accept that, Neil Richmond, that
0:14:41 > 0:14:46point that Northern Ireland will not be treated separately, so says the
0:14:46 > 0:14:49Government, Kate Hoey has repeated it, although she's not part of the
0:14:49 > 0:14:52Government, that Northern Ireland will not stay in any separate
0:14:52 > 0:15:01customs union?Absolutely. I reject the fact. We set out at the start of
0:15:01 > 0:15:04negotiations, as agreed by the European Commission and the UK
0:15:04 > 0:15:08Government that we needed to handle and get significant progress on
0:15:08 > 0:15:13three clear issues before phase two. We missed the deadline back in
0:15:13 > 0:15:17October. The Irish Government has put out a series of possible
0:15:17 > 0:15:22solutions. We would love the UK to stay within the European Union, the
0:15:22 > 0:15:26customs union. I appreciate that is not realistic. A new customs
0:15:26 > 0:15:28agreement will make sure Northern Ireland is not treated any
0:15:28 > 0:15:32differently to the rest of the UK and the Irish border can remain as
0:15:32 > 0:15:42it is, which. Any technological solutions will be a turn backwards
0:15:42 > 0:15:45to a dark place in our history.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49return to a dark place, threatening the peace process, if there were to
0:15:49 > 0:15:56be technological solutions for those customs checks across because, as
0:15:56 > 0:16:00has been said by the police force, as soon as you put any sort of
0:16:00 > 0:16:06technological tracker or a roving customs in check anything like that,
0:16:06 > 0:16:10along the border, it will become a target for a very real paramilitary
0:16:10 > 0:16:18threat.We don't want that to go back, we have gone from a situation
0:16:18 > 0:16:24where we have 270, it is a great place to be in, we have come a long
0:16:24 > 0:16:28way, we want to maintain that, the Irish government are the UK's best
0:16:28 > 0:16:31friend when it comes to European talks and we want to get this
0:16:31 > 0:16:35resolved. We want to move on to phase two as soon as possible but we
0:16:35 > 0:16:39have got to stand up for the rights of all Europeans and Irish people in
0:16:39 > 0:16:43these negotiations.He describes Ireland as Britain's best friend and
0:16:43 > 0:16:46says there has been a positive response, are you prepared to risk
0:16:46 > 0:16:51the peace process or any sort of infrastructure along that border for
0:16:51 > 0:16:55keeping Northern Ireland separate, when you'll Richmond says there is a
0:16:55 > 0:16:59solution in terms of some sort of customs...?A lot of smuggling goes
0:16:59 > 0:17:03on at the moment and we do not have any border at all, communal activity
0:17:03 > 0:17:07at the border, the idea that somehow because you have electronic tracing
0:17:07 > 0:17:13of lorries going forward and back, particularly those people who trade
0:17:13 > 0:17:17everyday, farmers who send milk back and forward, over the border, there
0:17:17 > 0:17:20is no reason why they cannot be given special status which happens
0:17:20 > 0:17:24in other parts of the world where there are borders. Because they are
0:17:24 > 0:17:29going back and forward. People in Northern Ireland generally, whether
0:17:29 > 0:17:34they voted remain or leave, will find it quite wrong and actually,
0:17:34 > 0:17:40quite almost, I can hardly think of the word, because it makes me
0:17:40 > 0:17:43annoyed, somehow the idea that because the United Kingdom is
0:17:43 > 0:17:48leaving the EU, that that is going to threaten the peace process, and
0:17:48 > 0:17:52therefore, we should be almost not leaving because if we leave, that
0:17:52 > 0:17:57could threaten the peace process. Isn't it a real worry?Well, there
0:17:57 > 0:18:01are dissidents but they are there at the moment, operating, crossing the
0:18:01 > 0:18:07border, things are still going on, quite horrible things have happened
0:18:07 > 0:18:12even in the last few weeks, they do not get much publicity over here but
0:18:12 > 0:18:18it is important we do not allow people like the dissidents to thwart
0:18:18 > 0:18:22what has been a democratic process of the people of the United Kingdom,
0:18:22 > 0:18:26Northern Ireland is an integral part.How responsible is it, Neale
0:18:26 > 0:18:30Richmond, of you to bring up the peace process, why is the Irish
0:18:30 > 0:18:35government wanting to revive any idea that piece may be threatened
0:18:35 > 0:18:40while these negotiations are going on? In order to use a stick against
0:18:40 > 0:18:46the British government, to make a decision that you would like to see
0:18:46 > 0:18:50in terms of this invisible border? The Irish government, along with the
0:18:50 > 0:18:56UK Government, our programme towards the Good Friday Agreement, it is
0:18:56 > 0:18:59absolutely our responsibility to make sure there is no undermining of
0:18:59 > 0:19:03the Good Friday Agreement.Why should there be?Well, because if
0:19:03 > 0:19:07you put in hard infrastructure, it is a step backwards and provides a
0:19:07 > 0:19:12viable threat or new dissident terrorists, not smuggling, I'm
0:19:12 > 0:19:14talking about targeting the institutions of a border that we did
0:19:14 > 0:19:20not ask for and we did not want and we have to make sure our small
0:19:20 > 0:19:25island maintains its peaceful disposition at the moment.Go on.
0:19:25 > 0:19:30This morning, Bertie Ahern said on radio, he can see the solutions
0:19:30 > 0:19:35would happen, one or two things may be more difficult but ultimately it
0:19:35 > 0:19:38can work, the technological electronic surveillance, and all of
0:19:38 > 0:19:42that, it is not have to be at the border, it is not at the border of
0:19:42 > 0:19:48some of the other places.We are very close to negotiations finishing
0:19:48 > 0:19:51and we have seen zero detail from the United Kingdom government. We
0:19:51 > 0:19:56did not see it from the speech in Florence, the Irish government has
0:19:56 > 0:19:59put in a detailed solution and we have seen nothing and we cannot be
0:19:59 > 0:20:03expected to move on to phase two on just a promise. We need a solid
0:20:03 > 0:20:07agreement with detail that will guarantee that there is no border,
0:20:07 > 0:20:10technological or otherwise, there cannot be a border. There cannot be
0:20:10 > 0:20:15a physical border. I'm been very straight on that, a return to a
0:20:15 > 0:20:19physical border is a step adequate and a threat to a very fragile peace
0:20:19 > 0:20:23process that those that are still living on the island see everyday.
0:20:24 > 0:20:29Why doesn't the government just give them a written guarantee?Well, the
0:20:29 > 0:20:33Prime Minister has stated very clearly, as has David Davis, as have
0:20:33 > 0:20:38all of us, are we really saying that the Irish government does not
0:20:38 > 0:20:42actually believe the word of the British Prime Minister?
0:20:44 > 0:20:49We want detailed.Why don't you provide a written guarantee?I am
0:20:49 > 0:20:57not...-- we want detail.Talking about a hard border... He's thinking
0:20:57 > 0:21:02a hard border does not even have electronic technology, that is
0:21:02 > 0:21:06nonsense, a hard border to me is what was there when the IRA were
0:21:06 > 0:21:09bombing and bringing over arms across the border, that was a hard
0:21:09 > 0:21:13border. We are not going back to that and no talk about ending the
0:21:13 > 0:21:18peace process is helpful at all in that discussion.Do you not take the
0:21:18 > 0:21:25British government's word on that, no return to a hard border?We
0:21:25 > 0:21:28absolutely accept the word of the British government, but what we have
0:21:28 > 0:21:31not done, and it was the same when the tea shop met the Prime Minister
0:21:31 > 0:21:36last week, and the Foreign Minister met the secretary of foreign
0:21:36 > 0:21:40affairs, we both asked very nearly of him, we want detailed, when the
0:21:40 > 0:21:48United Kingdom put it in detail, the European committing negotiating team
0:21:48 > 0:21:50will agree there has been significant and enough progress to
0:21:50 > 0:21:54go on to phase two. -- Taoiseach. That is what we want and what we
0:21:54 > 0:21:59need, we do not want to hold this up for no reason.Do you take Neale
0:21:59 > 0:22:03Richmond's point that there has not been enough detail from the British
0:22:03 > 0:22:06government, that they are asking for something without setting out
0:22:06 > 0:22:11precisely what it is.At the moment when it comes to Northern Ireland, a
0:22:11 > 0:22:15lot of empty platitudes about no hard border, treating it as the rest
0:22:15 > 0:22:19of the UK but no one is saying what that means, I think we are seeing
0:22:19 > 0:22:23clearly why Northern Ireland was not a big part of the Leave campaign in
0:22:23 > 0:22:26a referendum because they had no idea how to deal with it if they
0:22:26 > 0:22:30won. I agree with Kate and others on one thing, this is one area where
0:22:30 > 0:22:33the solution is intrinsically linked with the future trading relationship
0:22:33 > 0:22:37and this is one area where the EU insistence on splitting it into two
0:22:37 > 0:22:41parts simply does not work.Do you accept the idea that there could be
0:22:41 > 0:22:47a separate arrangement?I'm not comfortable with that particularly,
0:22:47 > 0:22:53it gets messy in and of itself.It may solve a problem... But it would
0:22:53 > 0:22:57cause lots of other problems.It would cause lots of other problems.
0:22:57 > 0:23:00When you talk about a hard border, describe what a hard border is in
0:23:00 > 0:23:04your mind, because if it is not a return to the infrastructure,
0:23:04 > 0:23:09checkpoints, that we associated with the troubles, before the peace
0:23:09 > 0:23:13process, what hard border is it that you mean?Any change to the material
0:23:13 > 0:23:17border that we have at the moment is a return to a hard border, be roving
0:23:17 > 0:23:22customs checks, the online infrastructure, all of these things
0:23:22 > 0:23:27that Kate and others have suggested, we have seen no detailed proposals,
0:23:27 > 0:23:30the government have not given us proposals, I reject the suggestion
0:23:30 > 0:23:35the EU has set up the process, this is an agreement between the United
0:23:35 > 0:23:39Kingdom and negotiating issues, three key issues, citizens rights,
0:23:39 > 0:23:43the situation of Ireland, this was agreed by both sides. We are
0:23:43 > 0:23:48sticking to the agreement and the negotiating timetable. If government
0:23:48 > 0:23:51is serious they will give us some detail.Is it helpful to that
0:23:51 > 0:23:55Ireland will pay for a border if it comes to no deal?We will not be
0:23:55 > 0:23:59putting up a border, so if they wish to have a border they will have to
0:23:59 > 0:24:05pay for it.What if they chose to Europe -- you chose to leave the
0:24:05 > 0:24:08European union, it is your decision. We did not choose to leave.Our
0:24:08 > 0:24:13people have made a decision.They did not consider what the result of
0:24:13 > 0:24:16the decision would be.We are leaving the single market, we must
0:24:16 > 0:24:21find a solution.You made the decision... You have not thought
0:24:21 > 0:24:26about what a border would look like. Will Ireland use its veto? I really
0:24:26 > 0:24:30hope Ireland does not need to use it, there is no need to use it, if
0:24:30 > 0:24:35the UK Government sits down and sets down their mission, and their vision
0:24:35 > 0:24:39for the United Kingdom and the relationship post "Brexit", it will
0:24:39 > 0:24:43make things easier. A lot of people who painful Eve did so without ever
0:24:43 > 0:24:46saying what the future would look like, this is a top three
0:24:46 > 0:24:51negotiating issue for both sides, critical importance, we want to move
0:24:51 > 0:24:58on to the future relationship. -- a lot of people who campaigned for
0:24:58 > 0:25:01leave.Difficult to find a solution to the border issue without the
0:25:01 > 0:25:07trade talks being part of it, it has been said, if Ireland uses its veto
0:25:07 > 0:25:10before the EU and Britain have had a chance to talk about the shape of
0:25:10 > 0:25:14the trade deal, that will destroy it before we get there.We have zero
0:25:14 > 0:25:19interest in using the veto, the veto is that hard Brexit, which is a
0:25:19 > 0:25:26disaster for us, but the situation on the island of Ireland is of
0:25:26 > 0:25:29utmost importance, we must resolve that, when we get a clear idea, we
0:25:29 > 0:25:35are not looking for a final solution in the next week or ten days, we are
0:25:35 > 0:25:37looking for significant progress allowing us to do what we want to
0:25:37 > 0:25:43do. We did not choose Brexit, we have got to deal with the mess of
0:25:43 > 0:25:48it, it is going to affect the island of Ireland much more...It may not
0:25:48 > 0:25:55be much longer before the island public...Your lack of knowledge is
0:25:55 > 0:25:58delusional about the Irish public voting for leaving the European
0:25:58 > 0:26:04Union, delusional.Is it delusional? Lots of options dealing with the
0:26:04 > 0:26:10Northern Irish Republic question, by building a wall and getting the
0:26:10 > 0:26:15Irish to pay for it, that is... That is not one of them.They are the
0:26:15 > 0:26:19only ones talking about a border, we don't want a border, we can handle
0:26:19 > 0:26:23it electronically.On that we will leave it, Neale Richmond, thank you
0:26:23 > 0:26:30for joining us.
0:26:30 > 0:26:32Later today, Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson will be speaking
0:26:32 > 0:26:35in the Commons for the first time since he took up the job,
0:26:35 > 0:26:38and it looks like he's had a tricky first few weeks.
0:26:38 > 0:26:40You may remember on Friday's programme we talked
0:26:40 > 0:26:42about a possible rebellion within the Conservative Party over
0:26:42 > 0:26:44the issue of defence spending, and at the weekend The Times
0:26:44 > 0:26:46reported that Defence Minister Tobias Ellwood has spoken
0:26:46 > 0:26:49of his "deep discomfort" about the levels of cuts facing
0:26:49 > 0:26:50the Ministry of Defence.
0:26:50 > 0:26:52He is even said to be threatening to resign over the matter.
0:26:52 > 0:26:55Well here's the former Defence Secretary, now Trade Secretary
0:26:55 > 0:26:57Liam Fox speaking to Sky yesterday.
0:26:57 > 0:27:01And there is a review going on at the present time, I think back to my
0:27:01 > 0:27:04own time as Secretary of State for Defence when we had a similar review
0:27:04 > 0:27:08ongoing and there is always a lot of tension, not just between the MoD
0:27:08 > 0:27:12and the Treasury but also inside the MoD between the different parts of
0:27:12 > 0:27:16the Armed Forces. Naturally, there are concerns about the future shape
0:27:16 > 0:27:21of that, but this is an ongoing discussion, I'm afraid it is not
0:27:21 > 0:27:24unknown for some of these tensions to spill over into the public
0:27:24 > 0:27:28domain, I think that we should wait and see exactly what sort of
0:27:28 > 0:27:33compromise we reach, because that is what it will be, and remember, the
0:27:33 > 0:27:38United Kingdom is the fourth biggest military budget in the world.
0:27:38 > 0:27:41Well, we're joined now by the Conservative MP and member
0:27:41 > 0:27:45of the Defence Select Committee Johnny Mercer.
0:27:45 > 0:27:48I thought about reports that Tobias Ellwood would resign if proposed
0:27:48 > 0:27:52cuts go ahead, have you spoken to him?I have not spoken to Tobias,
0:27:52 > 0:27:56sensible guy, that is a decision for him, he clearly sees what is going
0:27:56 > 0:28:00on in the Ministry of Defence, my role in this, it is not about me, it
0:28:00 > 0:28:04is what we as a Conservative Party do in defence, we are the party of
0:28:04 > 0:28:08defence, we need to get it right, this is a critical time.You have
0:28:08 > 0:28:14written a letter, and many other Tory MPs...About 30 MPs are there
0:28:14 > 0:28:18to hold the feet to the fire of the government about defence, this is
0:28:18 > 0:28:21not about individuals, it is about arriving at the right answer when it
0:28:21 > 0:28:25comes to defence, when it comes to a lot of the stuff in the budget,
0:28:25 > 0:28:29great stuff around artificial intelligence and 5G, when it comes
0:28:29 > 0:28:33to that stuff, cut your cloth according to what you can afford.
0:28:33 > 0:28:36Defence, pay what is necessary to keep people safe.You will hold
0:28:36 > 0:28:40their feet to the fire, how far are you prepared to go to stop these
0:28:40 > 0:28:44cuts.It is interesting, security does not go to a vote, and so we
0:28:44 > 0:28:48need to be clever in how we go about this, my initial position has been
0:28:48 > 0:28:51to make it very clear to the Prime Minister and to the Chancellor and
0:28:51 > 0:28:55the MoD that there is a group of backbench Conservative MPs appeared
0:28:55 > 0:28:58to hold the government to account. That is where we are at the moment,
0:28:58 > 0:29:03no point in doing things which may not be necessary and hopefully one.
0:29:03 > 0:29:11You would go so far as to defeat the government on these cuts...I'm not
0:29:11 > 0:29:14prepared to see and the group standing with me are not prepared to
0:29:14 > 0:29:19see a further degradation in this country's military. We will see
0:29:19 > 0:29:24where we get to once all is said and done.You think that is a real
0:29:24 > 0:29:27threat, what you have outlined?It is not a real threat, it is the
0:29:27 > 0:29:32reality of the situation, we are the party of defence and we are prepared
0:29:32 > 0:29:35to see it through.Is there a threat of the Armed Forces being shrunken
0:29:35 > 0:29:41in the way you describe?I think there is a clean threat -- clear
0:29:41 > 0:29:45threat, the options on the table are pretty horrific, we are at a
0:29:45 > 0:29:48critical moment with defence forces, when you look at some of the
0:29:48 > 0:29:52proposals, it will change what we are as a teal one military nation
0:29:52 > 0:29:55not only for ourselves but how we look in the eyes of our allies, and
0:29:55 > 0:30:00I'm afraid we are prepared not to accept it.Have you got faith in
0:30:00 > 0:30:03Gavin Williamson to stand up for the Armed Forces in the way that you
0:30:03 > 0:30:08would like to see?He could be, I know people have said he has no
0:30:08 > 0:30:12experience in things like that but he could be the best Defence
0:30:12 > 0:30:17Secretary we have ever had. If we were to see an increase in the
0:30:17 > 0:30:20military capability or at least stay where we are, then that would be a
0:30:20 > 0:30:26good result, I think that the Times of salami slicing are over, we have
0:30:26 > 0:30:31now got to a point, we need to ask what we want from Armed Forces, what
0:30:31 > 0:30:34we expect from them, what the British public one, they pay for
0:30:34 > 0:30:37this, I do not believe they are prepared to see something like the
0:30:37 > 0:30:41size of Belgium in the UK Armed Forces, it is not something they
0:30:41 > 0:30:44recognise and it is not something that I am prepared to put up with
0:30:44 > 0:30:49either.Will there be a showdown with the Chancellor?That is for
0:30:49 > 0:30:52Gavin and the Chancellor, how they work it out in cabinet is nothing to
0:30:52 > 0:30:53do with me.
0:30:58 > 0:31:02We are a team and it is about coming to the right conclusion for defence.
0:31:02 > 0:31:04We have called ourselves a party of defence. Let's show that and make
0:31:04 > 0:31:08sure we get it right.You are a backbench MP, the Government could
0:31:08 > 0:31:14choose not to listen to you. What evidence do you are? . Everyone
0:31:14 > 0:31:18knows the Government has a fairly small majority. Some of us are
0:31:18 > 0:31:22prepared to stand pretty resilient against a further reduction in our
0:31:22 > 0:31:27capability and spending on the millty. Paul, you have had some
0:31:27 > 0:31:31experience of extracting money and funds out of the Chancellor - what
0:31:31 > 0:31:35advice would you give? Do you think they should stand in the way that
0:31:35 > 0:31:39Johnny Mercer has described to get more money?When it comes to defence
0:31:39 > 0:31:44mattersly not tell Johnnie how to do his job.What about money out of the
0:31:44 > 0:31:48Chancellor?This is a matter that matters to you and you will not
0:31:48 > 0:31:52budge on. Johnnie is right - the first call of any Government is to
0:31:52 > 0:31:57protect the realm. The world is changing. Our armed capability has
0:31:57 > 0:32:02to reflect that. Scaling it back in some of the ways suggested will put
0:32:02 > 0:32:07our position as a global leader under threat.But the national
0:32:07 > 0:32:12security adviser, who seems to have the time say on the Defence Review,
0:32:12 > 0:32:21has said you need to increase cyber, instead of increasing the size of
0:32:21 > 0:32:27the Armed Forces?I am afraid the Prime Minister decision's will
0:32:27 > 0:32:31decide our configuration. I accept his decision. He has an insight into
0:32:31 > 0:32:35that side of the security apparatus. I do not deny that. These sort of
0:32:35 > 0:32:39decisions rest on the Prime Minister and it will be her decision to make.
0:32:39 > 0:32:45You will understand the Government heard you say a minority government,
0:32:45 > 0:32:50a small majority, with the DUP - aren't you going to be causing more
0:32:50 > 0:32:57trouble for it?It is about doing the right thing, like on tax
0:32:57 > 0:33:00credits, Universal Credit. The Conservative Party, I am I frayed,
0:33:00 > 0:33:04people don't want to hear -- I am afraid people don't want to hear it,
0:33:04 > 0:33:11but we are a team.Do you support the hole being plugged in the MoD
0:33:11 > 0:33:14budget?The Government is about priorities and choices. I think in
0:33:14 > 0:33:19terms of security both of the nation and of our service personnel when
0:33:19 > 0:33:23they are out overseas that is not something which can be compromised
0:33:23 > 0:33:26and the money if allocated to other things needs to be found.Labour
0:33:26 > 0:33:33said it will stick to the 2% spending as a proportion of GDP,
0:33:33 > 0:33:38even stripping out pensions, do you support that?If onin i was to push
0:33:38 > 0:33:42his group into a situation where there was a vote in Parliament I
0:33:42 > 0:33:45think a substantial number of Labour MPs would support it. We do
0:33:45 > 0:33:51recognise that for the public this is absolutely a huge issue. We do,
0:33:51 > 0:33:56we should be putting our Armed Forces at the front of an awful lot
0:33:56 > 0:34:02more than we are at the moment. And I imagine what will happen, because
0:34:02 > 0:34:06he's got a good group with him and there is a minority government, the
0:34:06 > 0:34:11DUP I think will wanted to support more money that's being spent on
0:34:11 > 0:34:16defence. This is something where we will see a way of going back on
0:34:16 > 0:34:21what's been said op it.And you may have the support of the former
0:34:21 > 0:34:24Defence Secretary, who said I hope to find an early opportunity to
0:34:24 > 0:34:28speak outen the the right level of defence spending to face the threats
0:34:28 > 0:34:31our country faces and do so more freely than the constraints of
0:34:31 > 0:34:37Government allowed. Is he part of your cohort?He has an insight into
0:34:37 > 0:34:43this. When he was at defence, over the last six/nine months, he was
0:34:43 > 0:34:46saying we should spend more on defence. When you are a minister
0:34:46 > 0:34:52your hands are tied. It will be interesting to get his insight.When
0:34:52 > 0:34:56is the crunch moment for you on this?The review has been pushed
0:34:56 > 0:35:00back - a new Secretary of State, it is coming in February. We will look
0:35:00 > 0:35:04and see where we go from there. This is not about the drama of
0:35:04 > 0:35:07rebellions, it is making sure we, as a party, do the right thing.Thank
0:35:07 > 0:35:12you.
0:35:12 > 0:35:15Let's look now at the other stories likely to be making the news
0:35:15 > 0:35:16at Westminster this week.
0:35:16 > 0:35:18Tuesday marks the deadline set by Speaker John Bercow
0:35:18 > 0:35:20for the Government to publish the so-called 'Brexit papers',
0:35:20 > 0:35:23a set of studies examining the economic impact of Brexit.
0:35:23 > 0:35:24Robin Walker and Chloe Smith, respectively Brexit
0:35:24 > 0:35:28and Northern Ireland Ministers, will appear in front
0:35:28 > 0:35:33of the Northern Ireland Committee hearing about the Irish border
0:35:33 > 0:35:35on Wednesday.
0:35:35 > 0:35:38And the PM and Jeremy Corbyn will also face each other
0:35:38 > 0:35:43on Wednesday for their weekly session of PMQs.
0:35:43 > 0:35:45The ONS release the migration statistics in the year
0:35:45 > 0:35:49ending June 2017 - the first full year of data
0:35:49 > 0:35:53since the Brexit referendum - on Thursday.
0:35:53 > 0:35:57And in the afternoon, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt
0:35:57 > 0:36:00delivers the keynote speech at the King's Fund annual conference.
0:36:00 > 0:36:03Labour's Afzal Khan will introduce a Private Member's Bill on Friday
0:36:03 > 0:36:09that aims to keep the size of the House of Commons at 650 MPs,
0:36:09 > 0:36:15and to abandon the Government's plans to reduce it to 600.
0:36:15 > 0:36:17We're joined now by the journalists Jessica Elgot from the Guardian
0:36:17 > 0:36:20and Sam Coates from the Times, they're enjoying the cold
0:36:20 > 0:36:30snap on College Green.
0:36:31 > 0:36:33The industrial strategy announcement being talked about on the news, of
0:36:33 > 0:36:37course and it has been trialled - has it been blown out of the water
0:36:37 > 0:36:42by the news of the royal engagement? Yes. If you were uncharitable you
0:36:42 > 0:36:48would say it made so few ripples before the announcement that I
0:36:48 > 0:36:53wasn't sure that Greg Clark isn't grateful to the royal couple for
0:36:53 > 0:36:56making their announcement so he can tell himself it is not getting much
0:36:56 > 0:37:01play. The industrial strategy has been a subject of enormous angst
0:37:01 > 0:37:05inside Whitehall. Disproportional compared to the coverage it gets,
0:37:05 > 0:37:09because surprise, surprise it looks like it makes incremental reform, if
0:37:09 > 0:37:13you could call it reform to the way business interacts with Government
0:37:13 > 0:37:19and how we help our businesses start and grow. I think because it's not a
0:37:19 > 0:37:24Big Bang thing toy to play with this morning, it doesn't really get as
0:37:24 > 0:37:29much credit in the media as I think Greg Clark might have wanted.On
0:37:29 > 0:37:33that, money is announced - supporting some of the new
0:37:33 > 0:37:38industries, AI and some of the tech industries. Will this not help in
0:37:38 > 0:37:42some way to help alleviate some of the downgrade in productivity and
0:37:42 > 0:37:47growth?The strategy is something that Government is supposed to do -
0:37:47 > 0:37:51it is hard, boring work, they are unlikely to get much credit from the
0:37:51 > 0:37:56public for. The kind of things you mention, they are dif kurlt for
0:37:56 > 0:38:00ordinary people to relate to. You heard words like "productivity."
0:38:00 > 0:38:05What does it mean to the average person who might vote Conservative.
0:38:05 > 0:38:10What Greg Clark is talking about is so people get better skills so they
0:38:10 > 0:38:13can earn more mon nif. That is something which needs to -- more
0:38:13 > 0:38:20money. That is something which needs to be got across.Johnny Mercer has
0:38:20 > 0:38:26been on the programme sounding pretty strong and defiant in the
0:38:26 > 0:38:28proposaled cuts to defence. It is Gavin Williamson's first outing
0:38:28 > 0:38:36today - will he compromise?Will Phillip ham mond compromise? He gave
0:38:36 > 0:38:42the budget in which there was no mention of defence. The timing is a
0:38:42 > 0:38:45little curious that this eruption from sort of people around the MoD
0:38:45 > 0:38:51is coming after a big spending and budgetary statement. There aren't
0:38:51 > 0:38:55normally announcements around about now. So it is interesting to see
0:38:55 > 0:39:00where this will build to. Built into the budget numbers last week was a
0:39:00 > 0:39:05little bit of forgiveness for some spending plan for 2019. I wonder if
0:39:05 > 0:39:09there is not a little bit of cash stored up for this announcement?
0:39:09 > 0:39:13There? But ultimately, it will fall on the shoulders of Gavin
0:39:13 > 0:39:19Williamson, as you say. It is his first big public test. He's never
0:39:19 > 0:39:22done a big public role until now. He has one thing in his favour, which
0:39:22 > 0:39:28is he knows a lot of backbench Tories from his previous job as
0:39:28 > 0:39:31Chief Whip. Theresa May will be conscious that people like Johnnie
0:39:31 > 0:39:36can cause a problem in the media and the Commons Chamber if they don't
0:39:36 > 0:39:42feel they are listened to. That is a thorny thing to come.Let's move on
0:39:42 > 0:39:46to the story that Momentum is asking Labour Party candidates to sign a
0:39:46 > 0:39:50contract to say they are supporters of the organisation campaign - what
0:39:50 > 0:39:55do you make of this?It is the kind of thing that is really set to rile
0:39:55 > 0:39:59Labour MPs who are not necessarily natural Momentum sympathisers. If
0:39:59 > 0:40:04you look at the statement itself, it is all motherhood and apple pie.
0:40:04 > 0:40:09There's not a lot in it that many could object to. Do you support the
0:40:09 > 0:40:13Labour manifesto, do you support an com I that works for the many, not
0:40:13 > 0:40:17the few? There is not much to object to there. Many are saying to me,
0:40:17 > 0:40:23hang on a minx obviously we gree to this because we are Labour MPs. Why
0:40:23 > 0:40:29sign up to this external organisation as well? Momentum has
0:40:29 > 0:40:31got the most extraordinary campaigning manpower. Labour MPs I
0:40:31 > 0:40:36spoke to over the election said they were stunned, even ones who are not
0:40:36 > 0:40:41sympathetic to Jeremy Corbyn when he first started as leader, how many
0:40:41 > 0:40:45people Momentum could get out in their constituencies, campaigning
0:40:45 > 0:40:50for them and leafletting for them. A lot felt it had a huge impact on the
0:40:50 > 0:40:54result at the last election. If it means for a Labour MP whose seat is
0:40:54 > 0:40:58not the safest that they lose out on that manpower if they don't sign
0:40:58 > 0:41:02this statement, that the a very powerful tool.Thank you very much
0:41:02 > 0:41:13for standing out in the cold for us.
0:41:17 > 0:41:22By building on the nerge and enthusiasm of the campaign. Now some
0:41:22 > 0:41:26Labour MPs are not happy. Wes Streeting said, no way am I signing
0:41:26 > 0:41:31up to outsource my thinking to a third party organisation.
0:41:38 > 0:41:47No-one from Momentum was available. We are joined by Jo Foster. Isn't it
0:41:47 > 0:41:52enough for them to support values - why sign up to the political
0:41:52 > 0:41:55objectives of MomentumIt is important that we look at the fact
0:41:55 > 0:42:00it is at the selection process. It is at the selection process. Often
0:42:00 > 0:42:04when people go through the selection process they want to say we want to
0:42:04 > 0:42:10be your MP.Even for reselected MPs or those standing again, are you
0:42:10 > 0:42:15talking about them being included? Just the initial selection.
0:42:15 > 0:42:17Obviously for any pressure group, for instance progress or trade
0:42:17 > 0:42:21unions, if you want the support of that organisation you need to say
0:42:21 > 0:42:26you support those aims. As Jessica said they are very tame. Often
0:42:26 > 0:42:30Momentum have been attacked in the press by Labour MPs and so on. If
0:42:30 > 0:42:34they want to support an MP it would be helpful for Momentum to know
0:42:34 > 0:42:38those MPs support their aims and will not attack them in the press.
0:42:38 > 0:42:46What do you think of the Stalinist approach to politics -?If you meet
0:42:46 > 0:42:50most Momentum members they range from 16 to people in their 50s. My
0:42:50 > 0:42:54friend's mother is a small sea Conservative, but backs those
0:42:54 > 0:42:59values.Will you sign up if you had to?A lot has been made of this. I
0:42:59 > 0:43:02don't think it is particularly different from what MPs do at the
0:43:02 > 0:43:08moment, anyway. Momentum has changed the Labour Party enormously just by
0:43:08 > 0:43:13getting so many young people I voveed and so many people who are --
0:43:13 > 0:43:21involved and so many people,. Many people who have joined Momentum want
0:43:21 > 0:43:25to see the country change and they supported Jeremy. It is from the
0:43:25 > 0:43:29same ones I would have expected.And you would sign up to it if you were
0:43:29 > 0:43:34asked to?We all say certain things when we are being selected. It
0:43:34 > 0:43:38doesn't always mean you vote with the Labour Party, as Jeremy himself
0:43:38 > 0:43:44knows.Would you sign it? This is binding, presumably?To be honest I
0:43:44 > 0:43:47cannot read the detail. If it to say do we support the aims of the Labour
0:43:47 > 0:43:50Party and whatever, you know, I think this has been made a big
0:43:50 > 0:43:56issue.If it binds you to supporting everything that Jeremy Corbyn...
0:43:56 > 0:44:02Isn't that the point, it is bidding, you join the campaign of momentum.
0:44:02 > 0:44:07Momentum will not turn up at your house and put you in the back of a
0:44:07 > 0:44:12van if you change your vote.Is hate now a political objective of
0:44:12 > 0:44:21Momentum? Because it was said at the Take Back Conference, make it hate
0:44:21 > 0:44:25again. I am full of hate these days. Another said, I am on team hate.
0:44:25 > 0:44:30There was a specific mention of Phillip May, as someone who should
0:44:30 > 0:44:34have loads of hate - is that acceptable?
0:44:37 > 0:44:48I do not disagree -- I do not agree with that, we are moving away from
0:44:48 > 0:44:53the politics which was very mainstream where all parties were
0:44:53 > 0:44:59from the same position, it is being said that it is OK to disagree with
0:44:59 > 0:45:05other people.This is specifically about hate and being full of it,
0:45:05 > 0:45:08when the tone of politics is unkind to say the least in many quarters,
0:45:08 > 0:45:12is this the sort of thing which should be espoused?I think they are
0:45:12 > 0:45:16talking more about anger than hate, unfortunate choice of words, in the
0:45:16 > 0:45:21comments they have made, clarified, they have been quite clear.They do
0:45:21 > 0:45:28use the word hate, do you think it is helpful and healthy.It is one or
0:45:28 > 0:45:32two people, I don't think you should brand everybody on the left or even
0:45:32 > 0:45:38in momentum, particularly, in the same way, but I do think politics
0:45:38 > 0:45:42generally and politicians have two be very careful about the words they
0:45:42 > 0:45:51use, because they can be taken out of context so easily. Mostly, people
0:45:51 > 0:45:55who are active and want to change things get annoyed and angry when
0:45:55 > 0:46:01they see policies that are very much not in the interests...And that is
0:46:01 > 0:46:03justifiable, to disagree and in quite an assertive manner, against
0:46:03 > 0:46:08the policies that have been seen in the Tory government, in momentum and
0:46:08 > 0:46:12in Labour's mind, that have made people poorer.There is no problem
0:46:12 > 0:46:15with being angry and disagreeing but the question of whether hate is
0:46:15 > 0:46:20inappropriate reaction, no, it is lazy, it is easy, it is harmful, and
0:46:20 > 0:46:24at some point, we have to describe that there is a level below which we
0:46:24 > 0:46:30will not allow political discourse to fall. -- have to decide. Does not
0:46:30 > 0:46:33mean you cannot campaign march on the streets, does not mean you
0:46:33 > 0:46:40should count yourself, but you carry yourself with a certain level of
0:46:40 > 0:46:43respect.This is a Christmas card you received.
0:46:50 > 0:46:55That is nothing to what I have been called! I just ignore them really. I
0:46:55 > 0:46:59have been called that they would like to string me up, all sorts of
0:46:59 > 0:47:04things, therefore this came in, politicians have always got certain
0:47:04 > 0:47:11amounts of abuse. Perhaps it got more during the whole referendum
0:47:11 > 0:47:14campaign and since actually I think it has got worse since but my view
0:47:14 > 0:47:20on all of that, I don't go running off to the police because I get an
0:47:20 > 0:47:24e-mail saying...Should MPs be careful?I want to comment upon
0:47:24 > 0:47:28that, I have big issues with what Kato said, I am a Scottish
0:47:28 > 0:47:32Conservative, I'm used to this sort of stuff unless I'm being chased
0:47:32 > 0:47:36down the street with pitchforks but this is the first time my
0:47:36 > 0:47:39constituency staff have felt uncomfortable and the first time my
0:47:39 > 0:47:42wife said she feels frightened. Kate and I are in Westminster three or
0:47:42 > 0:47:46four days a week, safe, but staff and families are not. Simply saying
0:47:46 > 0:47:50it is part of the job, get on with it, ignores the fact there is people
0:47:50 > 0:47:55around us who do not deserve this. Should they be called traitors and
0:47:55 > 0:48:00mutineers on your side, and then, the abuse that has come from the
0:48:00 > 0:48:04remains eyed about calling people on the Leave side stupid, ignorant,
0:48:04 > 0:48:10bigoted -- remain side.It is exactly what we saw in Scotland
0:48:10 > 0:48:13following independence referendum, so it is not surprising, the
0:48:13 > 0:48:17divisions are heated and unpleasant. As politicians we have a duty to
0:48:17 > 0:48:20moderate language with the way that we speak to one another and
0:48:20 > 0:48:23oppressed to a certain extent does, people take their lead from that and
0:48:23 > 0:48:28if you say, just get on with it, it is nothing, it lends an air of
0:48:28 > 0:48:32acceptability.In terms of calling people traitors, betraying the will
0:48:32 > 0:48:36of the British people, did that mean someone is a traitor? This was a
0:48:36 > 0:48:41phrase you used in the Commons in September. You said anyone voting
0:48:41 > 0:48:44against Brexit is betraying the will of the British people.That is not
0:48:44 > 0:48:50calling them a traitor.Does it lend itself to that kind of language?I
0:48:50 > 0:48:53was saying it in a perfectly acceptable reasonable tone of voice
0:48:53 > 0:49:00if I recall, but, I... I feel strongly that all the attention has
0:49:00 > 0:49:07gone on those, as if it is coming from the Leave side, and in fact,
0:49:07 > 0:49:12just because some of us have not gone public, like one of your
0:49:12 > 0:49:16colleagues did, about the abuse she got, it is almost as if we do not
0:49:16 > 0:49:24get abuse... No abuse should be accepted.Let's leave it there.
0:49:26 > 0:49:28Do you ever feel you've had enough of elections?
0:49:28 > 0:49:30Not a view we'd subscribe to on this programme,
0:49:30 > 0:49:33but how about getting rid of voting, and politicians, and letting
0:49:33 > 0:49:35the public decide how to govern the country?
0:49:35 > 0:49:41Here's the political writer Paul Evans with his soapbox.
0:49:52 > 0:49:54The ballot-box doesn't give us a very good way
0:49:54 > 0:49:57of telling Government what we want them to do, does it?
0:49:57 > 0:49:59It allows politicians to treat us like dummies.
0:49:59 > 0:50:02In elections, we're only allowed to say what it is we think
0:50:02 > 0:50:10that we want in advance.
0:50:10 > 0:50:11Businesses don't survive by giving people what
0:50:11 > 0:50:12they say that they want.
0:50:12 > 0:50:15As as Henry Ford allegedly said, "If I asked my
0:50:15 > 0:50:17customers what they wanted, they would have asked
0:50:17 > 0:50:20for a faster horse."
0:50:20 > 0:50:23If we were redesigning democracy now, we'd do it very differently,
0:50:23 > 0:50:25wouldn't we?
0:50:25 > 0:50:29One change that I would like to see is for all of us to have
0:50:29 > 0:50:30ownership and equal control over the whole
0:50:30 > 0:50:31of the public sphere,
0:50:31 > 0:50:33not just one vote every few years.
0:50:33 > 0:50:35I'd like to have a personal democracy budget,
0:50:35 > 0:50:37say £20 a month, where we could each allocate
0:50:37 > 0:50:40the money that is spent in the whole of the policymaking
0:50:40 > 0:50:50microeconomy of lawmaking and Government.
0:50:51 > 0:50:53Not just on MRs, but think-tanks, civil servants, lobbyists and even
0:50:53 > 0:51:01the ownership and direction of the media.
0:51:01 > 0:51:04No more press Barons, dark money, or stealthy bank
0:51:04 > 0:51:10rolling of lobbyists.
0:51:10 > 0:51:14Could even replace politicians and political parties with agents
0:51:14 > 0:51:19who bid to manage all or part of our monthly personal
0:51:19 > 0:51:20democracy budget for us.
0:51:20 > 0:51:23We could move our budget around at any time.
0:51:23 > 0:51:26It would be the job of these agents to keep their customers satisfied
0:51:26 > 0:51:29by working to ensure that we get the quality of Government
0:51:29 > 0:51:32that we want, and if they don't, they lose the business.
0:51:32 > 0:51:35It's as simple as that.
0:51:35 > 0:51:38So it's time for us to close down these polling stations,
0:51:38 > 0:51:40get rid of these ballot pencils and start doing democracy
0:51:40 > 0:51:48properly, because we're not headless dummies, are we?
0:51:55 > 0:52:00Paul joins us now. You say in your book that these ideas may be seen as
0:52:00 > 0:52:09a provocation, maybe an understatement... How would it work?
0:52:09 > 0:52:12Imagine we were starting from scratch, we know everything we know
0:52:12 > 0:52:18now about how feedback loops work and how people make choices and all
0:52:18 > 0:52:21of the flaws in representative democracy and the flaws in direct
0:52:21 > 0:52:26democracy, referendums, if we were doing things again, we would do them
0:52:26 > 0:52:30differently and I think this is the way we would do it.Getting rid of
0:52:30 > 0:52:33the ballot box and not having elections, how would that make it
0:52:33 > 0:52:38better?I'm not proposing to take control from people, I'm proposing
0:52:38 > 0:52:42to give a much greater layer of control. A ballot paper, one square
0:52:42 > 0:52:47on the box every four years, and that is the only input you have,
0:52:47 > 0:52:51alternatively, politicians choose and cherry pick a subject, offer us
0:52:51 > 0:52:54a rough and on it and all of a sudden that is what we are stuck
0:52:54 > 0:52:58with. I'm proposing that we need to have total ownership, shared
0:52:58 > 0:53:01ownership over the whole of the public sphere.
0:53:04 > 0:53:07Not just MPs, we have seen that a lot of MPs, Margaret Beckett, for
0:53:07 > 0:53:13instance, stood... The Article 50 vote, she said, I will be voting for
0:53:13 > 0:53:16this bill, although I fear it's consequences both for the economy
0:53:16 > 0:53:22and for the whole of society are potentially catastrophic... She has
0:53:22 > 0:53:26been 40 years in Parliament, 40 years, and she doesn't yet know what
0:53:26 > 0:53:29her job is! The first job of a politician is not to vote for
0:53:29 > 0:53:32something that you think is going to be catastrophic! It doesn't matter
0:53:32 > 0:53:38what an opinion poll says, politicians this is the argument, I
0:53:38 > 0:53:42would have thought every politician would have had it drilled into them,
0:53:42 > 0:53:47the day that they stood for Parliament, yet MPs... Imagine if
0:53:47 > 0:53:51someone had taken out an insurance policy, paying it for 40 years, the
0:53:51 > 0:53:56day the disaster happens, they find, no, I am not jumping in to help you.
0:53:56 > 0:54:00What you think of that description as MPs taking their responsibility
0:54:00 > 0:54:03in the way it has been outlined.I think they take them incredibly
0:54:03 > 0:54:07seriously.Why do they vote for things they do not believe in?I
0:54:07 > 0:54:10think you are misunderstanding what goes on in Parliament, lots of
0:54:10 > 0:54:15things happen, especially between individuals...Do you think signing
0:54:15 > 0:54:19Article 50 was good for the country? I wasn't in Parliament at the time.
0:54:19 > 0:54:25I was, I voted for it, I did, I did believe it.I am not clear how this
0:54:25 > 0:54:29is better, because you are talking about agents, who will appoint the
0:54:29 > 0:54:33agents, how often are they change? What happens if they don't do what
0:54:33 > 0:54:37you say, you are replacing the words MPs with agents.All questions
0:54:37 > 0:54:43answered in my book!LAUGHTER From all good book-sellers...In a
0:54:43 > 0:54:48few seconds, try to put a little bit of flesh on the bones. Well...I did
0:54:48 > 0:54:54a back of a fact packet calculation. The public sphere costs £15 billion
0:54:54 > 0:54:57a year to run, every civil servant, every lobbyist, all these think
0:54:57 > 0:55:02tank, all this dark money that comes in from an adaptable think tanks
0:55:02 > 0:55:06like the Adam Smith Institute and the Institute for Economic Affairs,
0:55:06 > 0:55:13-- Adam Smith think tank. -- comes in from think tanks.They are not
0:55:13 > 0:55:17here to answer the accusation that they are accepting dark money.I do
0:55:17 > 0:55:23run a website which looks at the opaque funding of a lot of things,
0:55:23 > 0:55:28whofundsyou, is the website.If they voted Conservative, for the DUP, who
0:55:28 > 0:55:33voted for that, for the DUP to be part of a confidence and supply
0:55:33 > 0:55:36vote.People vote at an election based on the candidates and party
0:55:36 > 0:55:40platforms that are there, it is what the result is, the leader of the
0:55:40 > 0:55:44largest party, there to form a government.So you thought it was
0:55:44 > 0:55:48good value for money?Nothing unconstitutional about what the
0:55:48 > 0:55:51government did, Labour would have done the same if they had the DUP to
0:55:51 > 0:55:55support them.We will end it there, and you very much for coming in,
0:55:55 > 0:56:00good luck! -- thank you.
0:56:02 > 0:56:05It's still November, so most of you probably won't have
0:56:05 > 0:56:06thought about putting up your Christmas decorations.
0:56:06 > 0:56:08But here in Westminster they're a particularly festive bunch,
0:56:08 > 0:56:11and this weekend the tree went up outside the Houses of Parliament.
0:56:11 > 0:56:14The Sitka spruce, which is rather larger than the one in the average
0:56:14 > 0:56:17living room, travelled 330 miles from a forest in Northumberland,
0:56:17 > 0:56:19and took the whole day to put up.
0:56:19 > 0:56:20Well we're joined now byTanya Nesbitt-Rex,
0:56:20 > 0:56:23she's the Christmas Tree Manager from the Forestry Commission,
0:56:23 > 0:56:25which must be one of the best job titles in the country.
0:56:25 > 0:56:27She's in our Leeds studio.
0:56:27 > 0:56:29Very exciting that the Christmas tree has gone up, tell us about this
0:56:29 > 0:56:33spruce.We are really excited that it has gone down again this year,
0:56:33 > 0:56:3916th year in a that the tree has come from the forest in
0:56:39 > 0:56:43Northumberland, it was identified one year ago, that tree, and it has
0:56:43 > 0:56:48been growing on open ground, and it has been allowed to flourish,
0:56:48 > 0:56:52created a nice tree that we have managed to transport down there this
0:56:52 > 0:56:58year.What is special about this Sitka spruce? Why is it the right
0:56:58 > 0:57:00tree to have outside the Houses of Parliament?It has been growing in
0:57:00 > 0:57:04open ground plots, has not been growing in a plantation, has been
0:57:04 > 0:57:09allowed to spread and the branches have got stronger, so actually, once
0:57:09 > 0:57:15we manoeuvre it, it is 45 foot high, quite a large tree to move, and we
0:57:15 > 0:57:20are transporting a 313 miles, so we need it to be a good quality tree.
0:57:20 > 0:57:25How may people does it take to put up? I'm not sure, actually, we just
0:57:25 > 0:57:31take it on the truck.We leave it there!We leave it for them to put
0:57:31 > 0:57:36up. Have you seen it up yet?I have seen the photos, I think it is a
0:57:36 > 0:57:40really nice tree, we are really pleased with it.Have you seen it
0:57:40 > 0:57:45yet?I hope that it is straight, I hate it when you see the top going
0:57:45 > 0:57:49slightly to the right to the left. Perhaps you could volunteer to help
0:57:49 > 0:57:54to see if is straight. Your first time really.Yes, actually, I had
0:57:54 > 0:57:59been down to Westminster before I was elected but yes, I wonder if we
0:57:59 > 0:58:03can do home visits.LAUGHTER Thank you very much for joining us.
0:58:03 > 0:58:09Have a happy Christmas, even if it is a little early to say.
0:58:09 > 0:58:12There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz,
0:58:12 > 0:58:15and sticking with the Christmas theme the question was which party
0:58:15 > 0:58:17leader has their own annual out for Christmas...
0:58:17 > 0:58:18A) Theresa May b) Vince Cable
0:58:18 > 0:58:20c) Jeremy Corbyn or,
0:58:20 > 0:58:22d) Arlene Foster.
0:58:22 > 0:58:25So what's the correct answer?
0:58:29 > 0:58:35Jeremy! Did you say that because you saw on the front of the two
0:58:35 > 0:58:39annuals... Look, you can have one as well. I'm sure you will be very
0:58:39 > 0:58:45pleased, and there is one for you. Goodbye from all of us here, they
0:58:45 > 0:58:50can look through their annuals. You are going to be reading that one!
0:58:50 > 0:58:52Let's have a look inside...