0:00:38 > 0:00:42Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:42 > 0:00:45Theresa May is in Brussels for a crunch lunch with the EU
0:00:45 > 0:00:47Commission president.
0:00:47 > 0:00:49They're talking up prospects of a deal,
0:00:49 > 0:00:54but has the Prime Minister given too much ground to the EU to get there?
0:00:54 > 0:00:56June's election cemented Jeremy Corbyn's position as Labour leader.
0:00:56 > 0:00:58Are his supporters now seizing the Momentum with a full-scale
0:00:58 > 0:01:02takeover of the party?
0:01:02 > 0:01:04Illegal drugs cause misery, blight communities and lead to more
0:01:04 > 0:01:07than 2,500 deaths a year, but is de-criminalising them really
0:01:07 > 0:01:14the answer to tackling the scourge?
0:01:14 > 0:01:16Philip Hammond wants driverless cars on Britain's roads by 2022,
0:01:16 > 0:01:23but will the rules of the road or the technology be ready?
0:01:23 > 0:01:26The politicians need to be careful they are not raising
0:01:26 > 0:01:28everybody's expectations.
0:01:28 > 0:01:30There is the legislation to sort out, there is the infrastructure,
0:01:30 > 0:01:33so don't go making promises that neither they nor the car
0:01:33 > 0:01:38industry can keep yet.
0:01:44 > 0:01:47All that in the next hour in this fully automated fourth generation
0:01:47 > 0:01:48driverless Daily Politics!
0:01:48 > 0:01:55What could possibly go wrong?
0:01:55 > 0:01:57Braving the backseat today, Labour's Alison McGovern
0:01:57 > 0:01:59and the Conservative MP, Crispin Blunt.
0:01:59 > 0:02:03First this morning, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Cressida Dick,
0:02:03 > 0:02:06has suggested there could be prosecutions after details
0:02:06 > 0:02:08were leaked by a former police officer of a nine-year-old
0:02:08 > 0:02:12investigation into Conservative MP, Damian Green.
0:02:12 > 0:02:15He was a Shadow Home Office Minister at the time.
0:02:15 > 0:02:17Now he's Theresa May's de-facto deputy.
0:02:17 > 0:02:21He strenuously denies allegations that he accessed pornography
0:02:21 > 0:02:25on his parliamentary computer as well as claims of
0:02:25 > 0:02:27inappropriate behaviour towards a female journalist.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30A Cabinet Office investigation into Mr Green's conduct is due to be
0:02:30 > 0:02:37handed to Theresa May this week.
0:02:37 > 0:02:40Do you think the police officers, retired police officers have
0:02:40 > 0:02:54breached the code of conduct?I think plainly and it is what
0:02:54 > 0:02:59Cressida Dick said it is beyond the pale and they are going to
0:02:59 > 0:03:04investigate what the implications are of what happened. This is
0:03:04 > 0:03:07terribly important for confidence in the police. To have people in a
0:03:07 > 0:03:10place where information is held by police officers until they retire
0:03:10 > 0:03:14and might be put in the public domain, what would you be wanting to
0:03:14 > 0:03:17co-operate with the police for if you thought you could be in that
0:03:17 > 0:03:23place? This is very important and Cressida Dick's direction is
0:03:23 > 0:03:30welcome.She has not been clear as to what should happen to the police
0:03:30 > 0:03:36officers. Should there be prosecutions.We want ACPO to have a
0:03:36 > 0:03:45look at this. Cressida Dick has given a steer. We may have to look
0:03:45 > 0:03:50if legislation is necessary if there is a gap in the law.They may have
0:03:50 > 0:03:53thought they were doing the right thing and it was in the public
0:03:53 > 0:03:59interest. Whistle-blowing?If you are going to breach your duty of
0:03:59 > 0:04:03confidentiality, do we need to make sure what the public interest test
0:04:03 > 0:04:07that's got to be satisfied is. It can't be a matter of your opinion
0:04:07 > 0:04:11because you think it's OK, that that becomes all right. It needs to be
0:04:11 > 0:04:17much clearer than that.Cabinet Minister just teen Greening said
0:04:17 > 0:04:20watching pornography at work was not acceptable. Do you think it should
0:04:20 > 0:04:24be a disciplinary offence?Well, I think, you know, we have to put
0:04:24 > 0:04:27ourselves in the position of, you know, anybody in an ordinary
0:04:27 > 0:04:31workplace and I think Justine makes fair and reasonable point there. The
0:04:31 > 0:04:34fact is, there is an investigation going on and I think everybody is
0:04:34 > 0:04:39probably best served if that investigation is allowed to be
0:04:39 > 0:04:42concluded, but these issues about policing and confidence are really
0:04:42 > 0:04:46important. I have spent a long time working with the Hillsborough
0:04:46 > 0:04:49families. This is not just something that affects politicians, actually,
0:04:49 > 0:04:55it affects all of us if we don't have confidence in both the police
0:04:55 > 0:04:57and the process of what happens if something goes wrong.Right, what
0:04:57 > 0:05:01about Damian Green? I mean, there will be some and there are some in
0:05:01 > 0:05:06fact who think he should fall on his sword and do the decent thing?It is
0:05:06 > 0:05:10only because he is subject to the investigations. Now, I agree with
0:05:10 > 0:05:13Alison, we need to let the investigations and the inquiries
0:05:13 > 0:05:17take their course. That's the proper way of behaving and people have got
0:05:17 > 0:05:22to take a view at the end of that process.Should the Cabinet Office
0:05:22 > 0:05:25inquiry be made public so we can make a judgment for ourselves?That
0:05:25 > 0:05:30will be a judgment that Theresa May will have to make.Should it be
0:05:30 > 0:05:36public?I'm happy, it's a report to her, I'm happy to let her make that
0:05:36 > 0:05:41judgment. She is in a place to make the judgment. Obviously, the default
0:05:41 > 0:05:45position was that it should be made public.No doubt others like the
0:05:45 > 0:05:49liaison committee e for example, the committee chairs will scrutinise her
0:05:49 > 0:05:57over it in the way they do everything.All right.
0:05:57 > 0:06:00As we speak, Theresa May is in Brussels, meeting first
0:06:00 > 0:06:02with European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker and chief Brexit
0:06:02 > 0:06:03negotiator Michel Barnier.
0:06:03 > 0:06:05Later today she'll sit down with Donald Tusk,
0:06:05 > 0:06:06President of the European Council.
0:06:06 > 0:06:11The diplomatic blitz is geared toward trying to secure the outlines
0:06:11 > 0:06:14of a deal on the UK's withdrawal from the EU ahead of a crucial
0:06:14 > 0:06:18summit in less than two weeks where the leaders of the other 27
0:06:18 > 0:06:20countries will decide if sufficient progress has been made
0:06:20 > 0:06:22to move on to trade talks.
0:06:22 > 0:06:25So what might Theresa May and the EU's leading figures be
0:06:25 > 0:06:29discussing right now?
0:06:29 > 0:06:31The EU 27 has always said sufficient progress
0:06:31 > 0:06:34is necessary in three areas.
0:06:34 > 0:06:37The so-called divorce bill, citizens' rights after Brexit
0:06:37 > 0:06:40and how to maintain the open border between Northern Ireland
0:06:40 > 0:06:41and the Republic.
0:06:41 > 0:06:48The BBC understands that this weekend a broad agreement has been
0:06:48 > 0:06:52made on the divorce bill the UK will pay - thought to be between 40
0:06:52 > 0:07:00and 50 billion euros.
0:07:00 > 0:07:02And on EU citizens' rights in the UK.
0:07:02 > 0:07:05But there is still the potential that the Irish Government could veto
0:07:05 > 0:07:07moving on to trade talks because it's concerned
0:07:07 > 0:07:10about the future of the border between North and South.
0:07:10 > 0:07:12They want a written guarantees from the British Government that
0:07:12 > 0:07:16there'll be no hard border and no future change to regulations
0:07:16 > 0:07:26on either side.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30Of course, it's not only leaders of the EU 27 who could make life
0:07:30 > 0:07:31difficult for Theresa May.
0:07:31 > 0:07:34The DUP, whose votes give the Prime Minister her parliamentary
0:07:34 > 0:07:39majority, say they'll withdraw their support
0:07:39 > 0:07:42if the Government attempts to "placate Dublin and the EU"
0:07:42 > 0:07:46by treating Northern Ireland differently to the rest of the UK.
0:07:46 > 0:07:56And on her own backbenches, some long-standing Brexit supporters
0:08:04 > 0:08:05like John Redwood and Owen Paterson, affiliated
0:08:05 > 0:08:08with the group Leave Means Leave, have called on the Prime Minister
0:08:08 > 0:08:11to set out red lines over money the UK will pay,
0:08:11 > 0:08:12and the jurisdiction of the European Court
0:08:12 > 0:08:13of Justice after Brexit.
0:08:13 > 0:08:16Yesterday Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt said the party must get behind
0:08:16 > 0:08:19Theresa May for without her, there will be no Brexit.
0:08:19 > 0:08:21Well, earlier Brexit Secretary David Davis was asked how confident
0:08:21 > 0:08:24he was that today's meetings would lead to a green light to start
0:08:24 > 0:08:25trade talks in December.
0:08:25 > 0:08:27Well, obviously that's what we're aiming to do.
0:08:27 > 0:08:30We've put seven months of work, both sides, into getting to this
0:08:30 > 0:08:33point and we're hoping that Mr Juncker today will give us
0:08:33 > 0:08:36sufficient progress so we can move on to the trade talks.
0:08:36 > 0:08:38The decision, of course, won't be taken until 15th December,
0:08:38 > 0:08:40but that's what we're hoping for because trade talks
0:08:40 > 0:08:43are enormously important to the United Kingdom and to Europe.
0:08:43 > 0:08:44David Davis there.
0:08:44 > 0:08:49Let's go to Belfast and talk to our Ireland Correpsondent Chris Page.
0:08:49 > 0:08:54Chris, you have probably seen the MEP has told the BBC that the UK is
0:08:54 > 0:09:00poised to accept a concession over the Northern Irish border and there
0:09:00 > 0:09:02will be no regulatory divergence between the north and south of
0:09:02 > 0:09:05Ireland. Does that mean that the Northern Ireland will be treated
0:09:05 > 0:09:11differently to the rest of the UK? Well, what Philip Lambert said to
0:09:11 > 0:09:17the BBC is consistent with a leak that RTE, the Irish national
0:09:17 > 0:09:19broadcaster had of a document that's in circulation in Brussels and it
0:09:19 > 0:09:24said that the absence of agreed solutions on the border, the UK will
0:09:24 > 0:09:28ensure that there continues fob no divergence from the rules of the
0:09:28 > 0:09:31internal market and Customs union and it is understood, according to
0:09:31 > 0:09:37RTE that text was later changed to slightly instead of no divergence,
0:09:37 > 0:09:42it spoke about continued regulatory alignment on the island of Ireland.
0:09:42 > 0:09:46So, this really is all about whether Northern Ireland at least will still
0:09:46 > 0:09:50continue to follow the same rules as regards the movement of goods across
0:09:50 > 0:09:54as the Republic of Ireland and if that was the case, well then yes the
0:09:54 > 0:09:58chances of the border being as open as possible would remain high, but
0:09:58 > 0:10:01if there are any checks on movement of goods, well you would see the
0:10:01 > 0:10:05return of some kind of border in Ireland. Some visible sign of a
0:10:05 > 0:10:11border. So it's a very difficult circle to square. As regards exactly
0:10:11 > 0:10:14how regulatory assignment would work, well, there is regulations
0:10:14 > 0:10:17that apply to all sorts of things in Ireland. People think that there is
0:10:17 > 0:10:22more than 140 areas of north/south co-operation. That could be dozens
0:10:22 > 0:10:27of policy areas that would be affected by regulations, everything
0:10:27 > 0:10:31from agriculture, food produce, to pharmaceuticals. So, you're talking
0:10:31 > 0:10:36about a massive amount of policy areas there and as regards the very
0:10:36 > 0:10:43basic debate seems to be had in the negotiations all around regulatory
0:10:43 > 0:10:45alignment and regulatory divergesance, it is that that
0:10:45 > 0:10:49everybody with a stake including the Democratic Unionist Party, will be
0:10:49 > 0:10:52looking at to see if it is something that will satisfy them.Right. What
0:10:52 > 0:10:56do you think? They are critically important in this, the Democratic
0:10:56 > 0:11:01Unionist Party. Will they buy the wording that you have just outlined
0:11:01 > 0:11:05in terms of that draft agreement? There has been no official reaction
0:11:05 > 0:11:10from them yet in public or in private, but I should think they are
0:11:10 > 0:11:13carefully considering everything that's being discussed. They made
0:11:13 > 0:11:17clear they are loo the loop here and they are just in the loop as regards
0:11:17 > 0:11:19the British Government keeping in touch with them, but the Irish
0:11:19 > 0:11:23Government. So, I think, it's all going to come down to whether or not
0:11:23 > 0:11:27if there is going to be some talk of regulatory assignment whether that's
0:11:27 > 0:11:33couched in a certain language and maybe certain caveat that will able
0:11:33 > 0:11:39them to say, that doesn't mean that Northern Ireland will be set apart
0:11:39 > 0:11:43in a major way. That is the DUP's bottom line and in the past, they
0:11:43 > 0:11:47have said that no regulatory divergence would mean it would be
0:11:47 > 0:11:50inevitable, there would be some kind of checks between Northern Ireland
0:11:50 > 0:11:53and the rest of the UK. So they wouldn't tolerate that, but it
0:11:53 > 0:11:56depends if there can be some kind of softening of the language around
0:11:56 > 0:11:59that which means the DUP think it is something that they can work with.
0:11:59 > 0:12:01Chris Page, thank you.
0:12:01 > 0:12:04And we can go live to Brussels now to our
0:12:04 > 0:12:07Europe Correspondent Kevin Connolly.
0:12:07 > 0:12:11Intense activity at the weekend and the feeling that 90% chance of talks
0:12:11 > 0:12:15moving on this month. Following on from this draft text that's been
0:12:15 > 0:12:19leaked, do you think there is now broad agreement even on the Irish
0:12:19 > 0:12:26border issue?Well, there is a sense that some form of words has been
0:12:26 > 0:12:30found which will keep everybody on board for now. Don't forget, you
0:12:30 > 0:12:34don't have to solve or fix the Irish border issue now, you just have to
0:12:34 > 0:12:37make a political declaration that sufficient progress has been made.
0:12:37 > 0:12:41That's why you have had this couple of days rather than reminiscent of
0:12:41 > 0:12:47the Irish peace process for people who remember it, where you have got
0:12:47 > 0:12:51phraseology about no regulatory divergence or continued regulatory
0:12:51 > 0:12:55alignment and what's the difference between those two? You are looking
0:12:55 > 0:12:58for elastic phraseology that will somehow keep everybody happy for
0:12:58 > 0:13:02now. I think that's do-able and I think the Irish Government, while in
0:13:02 > 0:13:06theory, it has a veto on the move to trade talks, would be highly
0:13:06 > 0:13:10reluctant to be put into a position where it appeared to be using that
0:13:10 > 0:13:14veto. So I think, sufficient progress is within reach on the
0:13:14 > 0:13:19Irish border. We're told it's done on money. There are outstanding
0:13:19 > 0:13:24issues on citizens rights, the European Parliament representative
0:13:24 > 0:13:28who apparently didn't see the headlines about the 85 to 90% has
0:13:28 > 0:13:32been talking about a 50/50 chance of a deal today. There are still things
0:13:32 > 0:13:37he wants on citizens rights for those Europeans hold be left in the
0:13:37 > 0:13:41UK after Brexit and he is still, I suppose, looking for concessions and
0:13:41 > 0:13:46just as the Irish Government obviously saw this as its moment of
0:13:46 > 0:13:48maximum opportunity, maximum leverage in the process, I think
0:13:48 > 0:13:52there is a feeling in Brussels that the British side is pretty desperate
0:13:52 > 0:13:56for a move to trade talks a and that more concessions might be there to
0:13:56 > 0:14:00be had. So it will be a big day here. Will it be the definitive one?
0:14:00 > 0:14:03I think there is a good chance that the UK will get that move to trade.
0:14:03 > 0:14:12Kevin Connolly, thank you very much.
0:14:12 > 0:14:15Crispin Blunt are you confident there will be a deal in two weeks?
0:14:15 > 0:14:21I'm hopeful. I don't think the EU representative doesn't have a veto.
0:14:21 > 0:14:25The European Parliament has a veto at the end of the process.Do you
0:14:25 > 0:14:30think Britain can move on to phase two, trade talks?I can't believe
0:14:30 > 0:14:36that the Irish Government are going to commit Harry Curie by setting up
0:14:36 > 0:14:39a situation of putting the British Government in a position to try to
0:14:39 > 0:14:43agree something which it couldn't possibly compromise on which is
0:14:43 > 0:14:47creating some border down the Irish Sea.So they will concede in terms
0:14:47 > 0:14:52of having this alignment?The Irish will find their way and the
0:14:52 > 0:14:55elasticity of language will be offered to them and relying on the
0:14:55 > 0:14:59good intentions of the UK Government to make sure that this border at the
0:14:59 > 0:15:04end of this process is as soft as it can be. It is not in our gift, it is
0:15:04 > 0:15:08in the gift of the 27 about the depth of the trade deal they give
0:15:08 > 0:15:13us.Are you confident this is the point at which the Government can
0:15:13 > 0:15:18see the next phase coming into view?
0:15:18 > 0:15:22In the end at the moment, the Brexit problem is consuming far too much of
0:15:22 > 0:15:26Government and we can't get on to deal with the things that people
0:15:26 > 0:15:31want us to, like sorting out the Health Service and schools. I take
0:15:31 > 0:15:36issue with the idea that somehow, the Irish Government have created
0:15:36 > 0:15:41this problem, because we have been asking in Parliament for the UK
0:15:41 > 0:15:45Government to tell us what they want for the border between Northern
0:15:45 > 0:15:49Ireland and the republic.They have said an invisible border to
0:15:49 > 0:15:54continue.There but not there. We can't do that until we know that the
0:15:54 > 0:15:58deal is.The key point we have discovered today is that in the end
0:15:58 > 0:16:02the language is important because you have to keep people onboard and
0:16:02 > 0:16:05you have to be diplomatic, but it comes down to what are our policies
0:16:05 > 0:16:10going to be? We have got to decide, do we want to really move away from
0:16:10 > 0:16:15the European model or we want to stick with it. If we are prepared to
0:16:15 > 0:16:18stick with it there will be a deal available. I worry about Theresa May
0:16:18 > 0:16:23being dragged off to one side by the hard right in her party and Nigel
0:16:23 > 0:16:27Farage dictating what the Brexit should look like, rather than having
0:16:27 > 0:16:31the common-sense to stick with the mod that will we, has worked for us.
0:16:31 > 0:16:35It will look like what the 27 are prepared to negotiate with us.So
0:16:35 > 0:16:40Britain doesn't have a vision or a view.We want a deep free trade
0:16:40 > 0:16:44agreement and we would like it to be as deep in service as it St in
0:16:44 > 0:16:48goods. It is unLukely I think our European colleagues are going to
0:16:48 > 0:16:54concede that because that is the only area we run a trade surplus in.
0:16:54 > 0:17:00It has come as a massive cost.Let us cut that down. Half is related to
0:17:00 > 0:17:05the trans pan situation period which would be our normal run of subsidies
0:17:05 > 0:17:10SYou don't see it as a big cost? The number doesn't come as a
0:17:10 > 0:17:15surprise to me, if you have the additional liabilities outside the
0:17:15 > 0:17:20normal run of businesses, the future leash, it seems about... --
0:17:20 > 0:17:25liabilities.Why did Boris Johnson say go whistle on the money?Because
0:17:25 > 0:17:31at that stage numbers were being put into the suggested at the order of
0:17:31 > 0:17:3760 to 100 billion. That is, and so effectively that would be 40-80
0:17:37 > 0:17:41billion' the 20 that Theresa May may clear -- made clear was going to
0:17:41 > 0:17:48be...You accept there is a price to pay.Of course there is. The country
0:17:48 > 0:17:53is making a big strategic... There are going to be up front costs and
0:17:53 > 0:17:57we want the good will of our partners going forward.Isn't the
0:17:57 > 0:18:00movement of talks on the a trade deal, the one thing that is probably
0:18:00 > 0:18:05guaranteed to kill off a likelihood of the UK staying in the single
0:18:05 > 0:18:11market?No.Really?In the general election in June I spoke to
0:18:11 > 0:18:15constituents who voted leave and remain, I think we should stay in
0:18:15 > 0:18:18the single market because that will help us get a deal done. So it is
0:18:18 > 0:18:24proving. In the end we have to decide do we want to stick with the
0:18:24 > 0:18:28terms of trade that we broadly had as part of the European Union, and
0:18:28 > 0:18:32say in the single market and keep business going in our country, or do
0:18:32 > 0:18:39we want to tear it up and take a massive risk, and you know, offer
0:18:39 > 0:18:43business massive uncertainty with the consequences for income in our
0:18:43 > 0:18:46taxes, I just don't think that people really want that in this
0:18:46 > 0:18:52country.You say people don't really want it, for people who vote for
0:18:52 > 0:18:58Brexit who see a potential deal where we don't accept free movement
0:18:58 > 0:19:02of people, we aren't subject to EU law they will think that is fine?
0:19:02 > 0:19:09What is that potential deal? If what we are talking about is regulatory
0:19:09 > 0:19:14divergence, so if we say the policies, rip them up, that
0:19:14 > 0:19:18regulatory divergence, it creates serious problems in terms of our
0:19:18 > 0:19:23relationship with the EU, that consequently causes problems for
0:19:23 > 0:19:28business, and I don't think that is really what people...Has she got a
0:19:28 > 0:19:34point there?It doesn'tIt doesn't take too many seconds of implication
0:19:34 > 0:19:38of staying in the single market to realise that is not an option. If
0:19:38 > 0:19:41you stay in the single market after we have left the European Union you
0:19:41 > 0:19:46continue to pay the money into the budget, you don't have any say over
0:19:46 > 0:19:50the development of regulations as they continue to operate in the
0:19:50 > 0:19:55single market that thereafter. That is not a place that a country could
0:19:55 > 0:20:01put itself in.I don't see why. We would be talking about new
0:20:01 > 0:20:05arrangement for us and have to work out how we were going to have
0:20:05 > 0:20:11influence, absolutely, but there are problems if we just leave, we have
0:20:11 > 0:20:14basically a whole complicated big industry like the chemicals
0:20:14 > 0:20:18industry, like life sciences that relies on the regulatory
0:20:18 > 0:20:23arrangements we currently have. If we are going to rip them up and
0:20:23 > 0:20:27start again Andy verge from that European model, we have to know how
0:20:27 > 0:20:32those industries are going to carry on.It is a British objective to get
0:20:32 > 0:20:37as close to that as possible, and the terms of that agreement are
0:20:37 > 0:20:44going to be determined by our 27 negotiating partners not by us, you
0:20:44 > 0:20:48can't have a future arrangement where by the, we will subject
0:20:48 > 0:20:53ourselves by the rules, and to continue to pay...Any deal we make,
0:20:53 > 0:20:58if we make a deal, a trade deal with anybody, with the American, with the
0:20:58 > 0:21:02Chinese, we will have to commit ourselves to rules we are not
0:21:02 > 0:21:08entirely in control of. That is what trade deals do.That is the position
0:21:08 > 0:21:15we are in at the moment.Hang on.To have no input. ...So far, so far
0:21:15 > 0:21:22what exactly has the EU conceded on. Jeremy Hunt said it's a technical
0:21:22 > 0:21:32point as to whether the UCE -- ECJ has jurisdiction.In the transition
0:21:32 > 0:21:36period I can see a role for the ECJ, beyond that our Supreme Court is
0:21:36 > 0:21:40going to have to be the Supreme Court in the United Kingdom.But it
0:21:40 > 0:21:44looks as if it will go further than the transition period. Would you not
0:21:44 > 0:21:50accept that?Well, that would depend if you had specific areas of
0:21:50 > 0:21:55agreement, where you thought you needed a body that is going to be
0:21:55 > 0:21:59the decision maker, you might want to consider whether the ECJ would be
0:21:59 > 0:22:04appropriate and you could have confidence in it. Those would be
0:22:04 > 0:22:09individual decisions in narrow areas.In terms of after second
0:22:09 > 0:22:12referendum, the you think there is any situation in which Labour would
0:22:12 > 0:22:19back one.I am really off reference darks and partly because of the
0:22:19 > 0:22:24conduct of the EU referendum and also, the division that the Scottish
0:22:24 > 0:22:28independence referendum caused. What I would like is a general election
0:22:28 > 0:22:34and I would like my party to put forward a strong, pro-European
0:22:34 > 0:22:39vision that says that the social model we have seen in Europe, where
0:22:39 > 0:22:43you have markets that are constrained by rules and regular
0:22:43 > 0:22:48losings, that is why we will have a different negotiating sense.
0:22:48 > 0:22:52I would like us to put that forward in a general election and test our
0:22:52 > 0:22:55arguments with the public. Let us leave it there.
0:22:55 > 0:22:56Let us leave it there.
0:22:56 > 0:23:00Now, if you thought all the Brexit action was on the other side
0:23:00 > 0:23:01of the North Sea today, you'd be wrong.
0:23:01 > 0:23:04The Withdrawal Bill is back in the Commons and debate turns
0:23:04 > 0:23:07to who will be "taking back control" after Brexit - Westminster
0:23:07 > 0:23:08or will the devolved institutions in Edinburgh,
0:23:08 > 0:23:10Cardiff and, once it's up and running again,
0:23:10 > 0:23:12Stormont have a bigger say?
0:23:12 > 0:23:17Let's talk to the SNP's Stephen Gethins who is in Central Lobby.
0:23:17 > 0:23:22What are you cob sense about the way the bill is drafted?We have
0:23:22 > 0:23:25concerns that those powers that are are the responsibility of the
0:23:25 > 0:23:29devolved administrations we were told would be sent back to them
0:23:29 > 0:23:33without touching the sides, are coming back to Westminster, and
0:23:33 > 0:23:37Westminster will be retaining control of those, so as well as
0:23:37 > 0:23:42taking back control from Brussels, Westminster is taking back control
0:23:42 > 0:23:45from Cardiff, Belfast or Edinburgh. The attention is not on what the SNP
0:23:45 > 0:23:52is demanding.You are to some extent a sideshow compared to what is
0:23:52 > 0:23:57happening over moving on the trade takes.This is a big negotiation.
0:23:57 > 0:24:04But just to correct you on something. This isn't an SNP
0:24:04 > 0:24:11amendment, it was drafted by the Scottish Government and a Welsh
0:24:11 > 0:24:15Government but also, which has been packed by the greens and the Liberal
0:24:15 > 0:24:23Democrats as well as Labour here at Westminster as well. So this is a
0:24:23 > 0:24:25pan institution, cross-party amendment, to stop that power grab
0:24:25 > 0:24:32that is going on as Westminster.And also an attempt to frustrate the
0:24:32 > 0:24:38process of the UK leading the EU. This is about representing the
0:24:38 > 0:24:41devolution process, when we joined the European Union, the devolved add
0:24:41 > 0:24:45Miguel minute stranges weren't in place, the UK is not the same state
0:24:45 > 0:24:50as 40 years ago, what our amendment does is to respect the state, if you
0:24:50 > 0:24:55like, the state we are in just now. This isn't something coming from the
0:24:55 > 0:24:59House of Commons in this cross-party group. This is something recognised
0:24:59 > 0:25:04by the House of Lords, the law society of Scotland and various
0:25:04 > 0:25:09Evers as well. There is a hole at the heart of this H it doesn't
0:25:09 > 0:25:17rerespect the process. Our amendment seek -- change that. Clause 11 of
0:25:17 > 0:25:24the bill maintains the status quo. It would prevent the admission stray
0:25:24 > 0:25:29-- administrations from changing laws. Why does it matter whether the
0:25:29 > 0:25:33powers are at recommend if you are not going to change them? This goes
0:25:33 > 0:25:35to the heart of why people weren't understanding the role of the EU. In
0:25:35 > 0:25:39the role of the EU you can go over there, negotiate. If they come back
0:25:39 > 0:25:43to Westminster, on areas that are devolved like fishing, farming
0:25:43 > 0:25:47climate change, energy and these raft of power, Westminster will be
0:25:47 > 0:25:53making the decisions. We were told we would get the powers back without
0:25:53 > 0:25:59touching the sides. It keeps the promise made during the referendum
0:25:59 > 0:26:04as well.What changes would you make then?We would want to see the
0:26:04 > 0:26:07Scottish Government and the Welsh Assembly and when it is up and
0:26:07 > 0:26:13running the Northern Ireland as well. Have a full role that knows...
0:26:13 > 0:26:17What changes would you make?The change, what we would like to see is
0:26:17 > 0:26:23we would like to see our amendments being accepted which means the
0:26:23 > 0:26:30Scottish Parliament would have to agree and the common frameworks
0:26:30 > 0:26:34would have to be agreed.Fishing and farming.That is an important change
0:26:34 > 0:26:38to be made and represents the state we are in.What about respecting
0:26:38 > 0:26:42leave voters in places, in fishing and farming communities, in places
0:26:42 > 0:26:48in the north of Scotland where the leave vote was the highest. Every
0:26:48 > 0:26:55local authority area in Scotland voted to remain. Including in my own
0:26:55 > 0:27:02constituency. In all of these areas what we want to see is respect what
0:27:02 > 0:27:08Vote Leave promised so if they said these powers would come back, this
0:27:08 > 0:27:13is holding the Government and holding the ministers in vote leave
0:27:13 > 0:27:17to account for the promise they made as much as they made to even else in
0:27:17 > 0:27:25the UK. The UK Government is facing pressure from the 13 Conservative
0:27:25 > 0:27:29members so the Government will ensure the powers are returned to
0:27:29 > 0:27:33Holyrood and your colleague also claim victory.The Scottish
0:27:33 > 0:27:37Conservatives with vote for the amendment to us their Monday where
0:27:37 > 0:27:42their mouth is, show they against the power grab back to Westminster,
0:27:42 > 0:27:50do what they were elected to do so they can businessman them today.In
0:27:50 > 0:27:57terms of what happens now, once these amendments have passed or not
0:27:57 > 0:28:06you will lose leverage in terms of pushing for further amendment.s. One
0:28:06 > 0:28:11thing that the Conservative Government has failed to grasp, we
0:28:11 > 0:28:18have torque boy as cross-party lines. That goes for the devolved
0:28:18 > 0:28:20administration, devolution is a process.
0:28:20 > 0:28:26Thank you very much. Before we move on, we have had a response from the
0:28:26 > 0:28:31Democratic Unionist Party Sammy Wilson this is about the regulatory
0:28:31 > 0:28:36alignment talked about. They say it would be vetoed at stompt. What do
0:28:36 > 0:28:42you say to that. They could pull the plug on this.So the Conservative
0:28:42 > 0:28:47would if it is put into a position where we have to create new
0:28:47 > 0:28:51boundaries between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. We will be United
0:28:51 > 0:28:58Kingdom at the start of this process and UK young at the end. That is why
0:28:58 > 0:29:01the Irish Government about where they try to push the British
0:29:01 > 0:29:07government, because if we are driven up a cul-de-sac where the issues
0:29:07 > 0:29:14are...You wouldn't agree to regulatory alignment yourself.We
0:29:14 > 0:29:20have to get into the area where there, if you like sensible
0:29:20 > 0:29:24elasticity of language that can get us to a place where the good will in
0:29:24 > 0:29:27the United Kingdom and in the Republic of Ireland, to make the
0:29:27 > 0:29:32border issue work at the end of the process when we know what the deal
0:29:32 > 0:29:36is, then all that good will will kick in and we will make the mens of
0:29:36 > 0:29:45what we are presented with.Isn't it true, this is the last stage, the
0:29:45 > 0:29:49Irish Government can exert maximum pressure.This is the question. I
0:29:49 > 0:29:53feel terrible, actually we have got to this point and I think a lot of
0:29:53 > 0:29:56people didn't think about Northern Ireland until too late. That is an
0:29:56 > 0:30:01incredible shame and those of us who grew up under the shadow of what
0:30:01 > 0:30:12happened in the past. You know regret that deep. I -- wish the
0:30:12 > 0:30:17Tories exerted it sooner and we could have got this dealt with
0:30:17 > 0:30:20clearly, we neat regulatory alignment. That is clear, I wish we
0:30:20 > 0:30:25could have said that ages ago and reached out to our friend in Ireland
0:30:25 > 0:30:28and sorted it out a long time ago. Thank you.
0:30:28 > 0:30:29Thank you.
0:30:29 > 0:30:32Now, Labour grandee Roy Hattersley wrote this weekend that the party
0:30:32 > 0:30:34was facing the "greatest crisis in its history".
0:30:34 > 0:30:36The cause, he says, is the infiltration of the group
0:30:36 > 0:30:39Momentum, who have taken a number of seats on the party's
0:30:39 > 0:30:40organising committees.
0:30:40 > 0:30:42They are now campaigning for their preferred candidates to be
0:30:42 > 0:30:44nominated as Labour council candidates and in target
0:30:44 > 0:30:45parliamentary seats, angering many existing Labour
0:30:45 > 0:30:47councillors who are facing deselection as a result.
0:30:47 > 0:30:50One of those who has already been deselected is the Sheffield
0:30:50 > 0:30:52councillor Kieran Harpham, and he joins us now
0:30:52 > 0:31:00from our studio there.
0:31:00 > 0:31:07Welcome to the programme. Why were you facing reselection?It's a
0:31:07 > 0:31:10process ke go through as local councillors. Every time our seats
0:31:10 > 0:31:16are up for election.And were you expecting to be opposed?I think I
0:31:16 > 0:31:20was expect, I think you always have to expect some resistance to your
0:31:20 > 0:31:29seat. Tell us what happened?So, I was
0:31:29 > 0:31:35short listed with five, well, five other candidates and two reserve
0:31:35 > 0:31:38candidates. Two of those candidates I was up against got seats in other
0:31:38 > 0:31:47parts of the city and then I was up against the five that were left and
0:31:47 > 0:31:53we then had a reselection meeting about three weeks later. In which I
0:31:53 > 0:31:57unfortunately lost.How did you feel about it afterwards?Unhappy
0:31:57 > 0:32:01obviously. I mean it's a loss of a job. It is a loss of a stable
0:32:01 > 0:32:05income, but I'm young. I'm a young bloke. I imagine I can get a
0:32:05 > 0:32:10different job. I will be standing again in future for a council seat
0:32:10 > 0:32:15somewhere else if I can.Were you given a reason for your deselection?
0:32:15 > 0:32:20It's not typically the way that we would do it necessarily given any
0:32:20 > 0:32:25particular reason. It's a democratic process. I was, there was about 70
0:32:25 > 0:32:29members in the room at the time. So, you know, each one of them, I
0:32:29 > 0:32:33wouldn't expect each one of them to give me a specific reason as to why
0:32:33 > 0:32:38they didn't vote for me.Do you have any idea as to why you might not
0:32:38 > 0:32:45have been reselected?I have had my disagreements as we all do with
0:32:45 > 0:32:54various members and members of the party at times. You know, you can
0:32:54 > 0:32:57have disagreements over various things. The Labour Party is a broad
0:32:57 > 0:33:02church and not all of us agree all the time.One person said it was
0:33:02 > 0:33:09because you weren't left-wing enough, what do you say to that?I
0:33:09 > 0:33:15don't agree with the fact I'm not left-wing enough. I was brought up
0:33:15 > 0:33:22in a working estate in Sheffield. I wouldn't call myself not left-wing.
0:33:22 > 0:33:25That's not true.What do you think is happening in the Labour Party at
0:33:25 > 0:33:31the moment?I think there is something happening in the party at
0:33:31 > 0:33:36the moment. I mean we have seen the membership increase over the last
0:33:36 > 0:33:39two years. But I don't necessarily, you know, this is a thing that
0:33:39 > 0:33:44happens from time to time. My dad was a serving councillor for 15
0:33:44 > 0:33:48years. He was deselected the first time round and had to go and stand
0:33:48 > 0:33:54somewhere else. I was going to say thank you very
0:33:54 > 0:33:57much for joining us today.Cheers.
0:33:57 > 0:34:00And here in the studio now is Aaron Bastani of Novara Media
0:34:00 > 0:34:02who is also a member of Momentum.
0:34:02 > 0:34:05Alison McGovern was one of the those to resign her shadow ministerial
0:34:05 > 0:34:08post in protest at Jeremy Corbyn's leadership in 2016.
0:34:08 > 0:34:15Welcome to the programme.Aaron, why should a long-standing councillor be
0:34:15 > 0:34:19replaced by someone who has only been a Labour member for a couple of
0:34:19 > 0:34:35years?And long may it continue. They had disagreements and he had
0:34:35 > 0:34:35disagreements with
0:34:41 > 0:34:46In Haringey there was a development which has caused a lot of
0:34:46 > 0:34:51consternation, local MPs are opposed to it, you couldn't call those
0:34:51 > 0:34:57radical left Wenger entourists and a majority of the local community and
0:34:57 > 0:35:03are opposed, that has meant a number of councillors have chosen not to
0:35:03 > 0:35:07rerun or have not been reselected. It is specific on local issues and
0:35:07 > 0:35:13by the way, there are people like Vincent Carol who signed alert in
0:35:13 > 0:35:192016 against Jeremy Corbyn, he has not been reselected because he has
0:35:19 > 0:35:24an anti-DV position.
0:35:24 > 0:35:28Is this democracy in action?We should be talking about the need of
0:35:28 > 0:35:32Local Government to have proper adult social care and do all the
0:35:32 > 0:35:40important work that they do. We fell into the trap that George Osborne
0:35:40 > 0:35:44set for us when he wanted local councils run by Labour to be
0:35:44 > 0:35:47vilified because they had to distribute his cut. You fall into
0:35:47 > 0:35:51that trap if we start kind of allowing the Labour Party at a local
0:35:51 > 0:36:01level to be torn apart because we are kind of vilifying Labour
0:36:01 > 0:36:04politicians for decisions they take. When you are in power, sometimes you
0:36:04 > 0:36:07have difficult choices to make and I think what's gone on and when I have
0:36:07 > 0:36:12read the coverage I feel like we are falling into at times a trap set for
0:36:12 > 0:36:15us by the Tories. In the end, the Labour Party is a family. It takes
0:36:15 > 0:36:23all sorts. We kind of, we have, we let everybody have their view, but
0:36:23 > 0:36:26we shouldn't behaving the negativity, we should be getting
0:36:26 > 0:36:29behind our Labour councils and having a really good election into
0:36:29 > 0:36:33May because we've got a massive chance to send a big message to the
0:36:33 > 0:36:39Tories.If that's what is happening, you are falling into the trap set to
0:36:39 > 0:36:44you by the Conservatives?If the trap is winning three million extra
0:36:44 > 0:36:47votes in the general election and eight points ahead of the Tories in
0:36:47 > 0:36:52the polls, again I want that trap to get even worse. If that's what it
0:36:52 > 0:37:02looks like. One sec, this is about democratic correlation in the Labour
0:37:02 > 0:37:10Party. It is observable. I would say actually this is instrumentally
0:37:10 > 0:37:13vital to a reinvigorated party membership who feel agency, who
0:37:13 > 0:37:18knock on the doors, who work so hard that we saw in the run up to 8th
0:37:18 > 0:37:22June and that has to continue if Labour are to continue making
0:37:22 > 0:37:26outstanding improvements.And they have, haven't they?We had a great
0:37:26 > 0:37:30performance in June and we had people who come from all different
0:37:30 > 0:37:34parts of the party working hard together and it was brilliant. There
0:37:34 > 0:37:37was a massive Brexit impact. There was a lot of people who never voted
0:37:37 > 0:37:40Labour before and voted Labour in my patch because they wanted to send a
0:37:40 > 0:37:45message to the Tories over Brexit. The question is though, do we use
0:37:45 > 0:37:48the local elections into May as a chance to send the message to the
0:37:48 > 0:37:52Tories as a chance to demonstrate Labour's values on the doorstep or
0:37:52 > 0:37:57do we spend our time, you know, having a go at people who have to
0:37:57 > 0:38:01make really hard decisions.Is that what's happening here? Are they
0:38:01 > 0:38:05having a go?Having read the coverage over the weekend that's
0:38:05 > 0:38:08what seems to be happening and I would rather judge people by what
0:38:08 > 0:38:13they do and how the commitment that they have shown to their people
0:38:13 > 0:38:19locally rather than there being sort of like either Momentum or you are
0:38:19 > 0:38:29this or that.Is David Lammy a momentum flunkyDavid Lammy is a
0:38:29 > 0:38:38brilliant Labour MP and somebody that I've worked with.He backs the
0:38:38 > 0:38:42anti-DVHD lobby.What I would ask everybody in the Labour Party to do
0:38:42 > 0:38:46is treat everybody with respect and dignity. Look at somebody's whole
0:38:46 > 0:38:50record, not just on one thing they might say or whatever, look at their
0:38:50 > 0:38:53whole record and judge them by what they do. Put the Labour Party
0:38:53 > 0:38:59together and don't rip it apart. That's the accusation that you're
0:38:59 > 0:39:06ripping the Labour Party apart. Is it right that Momentum is taking
0:39:06 > 0:39:10control of the party?Jeremy Corbyn won over 50% of the vote both times
0:39:10 > 0:39:13with the membership the first time just under. Now what we are seeing
0:39:13 > 0:39:19is that base of support is now finding democratic reflection within
0:39:19 > 0:39:23the elected offices of the party. We are beginning with councillors.
0:39:23 > 0:39:28There is nothing wrong with that. Liz Kendall the progress candidate
0:39:28 > 0:39:33in 2015 got 4.5% of the vote. I have no problem with progress having 4.5%
0:39:33 > 0:39:37of Labour's councillors. The point is the values and the objectives
0:39:37 > 0:39:41need to be of the membership need to be reflected in our holders of
0:39:41 > 0:39:49public office.You want candidates that reflect Momentum's objectives?
0:39:49 > 0:39:55We have a first past the post system and liberals and Social Democrats
0:39:55 > 0:39:57and democratic socialists have to work together under that system.Do
0:39:57 > 0:40:01you think people like you and who support your objectives are being
0:40:01 > 0:40:04pushed out of the party?No, the Labour Party is like my family. I
0:40:04 > 0:40:10will be in the Labour Party or no party. That's everything that I've
0:40:10 > 0:40:14grown up with and known and I think...Do you not accept what is
0:40:14 > 0:40:18being said that now people need to reflect the views of the membership
0:40:18 > 0:40:24and the candidates and councillors do too?Well, all our members have
0:40:24 > 0:40:27different views about different things and the thing I object to
0:40:27 > 0:40:30here is the division of people into two groups, you are either that or
0:40:30 > 0:40:34you're that. You're Momentum or you're not. It doesn't really work
0:40:34 > 0:40:38like that. Hang on a second. People have got different views about
0:40:38 > 0:40:41different things and you shouldn't judge people based on one fact or
0:40:41 > 0:40:45who they voted for in a leadership election that was two years ago.
0:40:45 > 0:40:49Hang on, I think that's, I think that's really foolish and I think it
0:40:49 > 0:40:52is divisive. I think what we need is to have the priorities of the
0:40:52 > 0:41:00British people and I tell you what's a ka catastrophe. What is a
0:41:00 > 0:41:07catastrophe is not what some group in the Labour Party is doing, what
0:41:07 > 0:41:11is a catastrophe is this Tory Government.
0:41:11 > 0:41:13Now, they ruin lives, blight communities and lead to more
0:41:13 > 0:41:15than 2,500 deaths a year in England and Wales.
0:41:15 > 0:41:19But what's the best way of tackling the scourge of illegal drugs?
0:41:19 > 0:41:21Last month our guest of the day, Crispin Blunt,
0:41:21 > 0:41:24encouraged Theresa May to consider de-criminalisation.
0:41:24 > 0:41:26On the whole issue of prohibition of drugs globally, can
0:41:26 > 0:41:29I draw her attention to the fact that global policy is beginning
0:41:29 > 0:41:32to change and in the face of the evidential failure
0:41:32 > 0:41:34of the policy since the 1961 UN single convention on prohibition
0:41:34 > 0:41:38of narcotics drugs and will she look at the evidence that's going
0:41:38 > 0:41:41to emerge from the United States and Canada on the legalisation
0:41:41 > 0:41:44of regulation of cannabis markets there as well as decriminalisation
0:41:44 > 0:41:51in Portugal and elsewhere?
0:41:51 > 0:41:54I do just have to say to my honourable friend that I take
0:41:54 > 0:42:01a different opinion from him in relation to drugs.
0:42:01 > 0:42:04I think that those who are dealing with people who have been affected
0:42:04 > 0:42:05by drugs would also do so.
0:42:05 > 0:42:09I think of my constituent Elizabeth Burton-Phillips who set-up
0:42:09 > 0:42:13DrugFAM after the suicide of her son who was a drug addict.
0:42:13 > 0:42:18The work she is doing with families who are affected because a member
0:42:18 > 0:42:21of the family is on drugs and the incredible damage that
0:42:21 > 0:42:25that can do to families and to the individual concerned.
0:42:25 > 0:42:28I'm sorry I say to my honourable friend, I take a different view.
0:42:28 > 0:42:33I think it's right that we continue to fight the war against drugs.
0:42:34 > 0:42:37We're joined now by Peter Hitchens who is an ardent opponent
0:42:37 > 0:42:40of de-criminalisation.
0:42:40 > 0:42:44Welcome to the programme. Just before I come to you, Crispin Blunt
0:42:44 > 0:42:46you asked the Prime Minister to look at evidence from Portugal. What's
0:42:46 > 0:42:52the strongest bit of evidence from there?Portugal what decrim
0:42:52 > 0:42:56nationalingised as far as the users are concerned. People right at the
0:42:56 > 0:43:00bottom of the drug chain as it were. And what they are finding is that
0:43:00 > 0:43:03the public health impact you might have expected by relaxing the law as
0:43:03 > 0:43:08it applied to people who were then found consuming drugs hasn't led to
0:43:08 > 0:43:12a massive increase in drug consumption. Indeed, as far as
0:43:12 > 0:43:17deaths from opiate use are concerned, those numbers have gone
0:43:17 > 0:43:21in a positive direction and talk to Portuguese politicians who have been
0:43:21 > 0:43:24responsible, they are proud of the changes they have made in Portugal.
0:43:24 > 0:43:27It has taken, it meant their public health position is better than it
0:43:27 > 0:43:31was before they made the changes. It is only a very small part of a wider
0:43:31 > 0:43:37discussion.Do you take that evidence from the Portuguese model?
0:43:37 > 0:43:45Anyone can look at my blog which has been over rated by propagandists
0:43:45 > 0:43:50from decriminalisation. It has not been like the great success.
0:43:50 > 0:43:55Portugal had feeble drug laws and usage of some drugs increased. The
0:43:55 > 0:44:00real place to look at is England where the decriminal identitiesation
0:44:00 > 0:44:06of drugs has been continuing in this country since 1974ish at an amazing
0:44:06 > 0:44:10rate, but never officially acknowledged which has been an
0:44:10 > 0:44:15indefensible disaster.How would decriminalising the drugs reverse
0:44:15 > 0:44:19the trend of 2500 people dying from the illegal use of drugs in the UK
0:44:19 > 0:44:24in 2016, up from the previous year for the fourth year in a row?
0:44:24 > 0:44:27Because there are groups, whilst the Prime Minister quoted one lady who
0:44:27 > 0:44:35is a constituent who set up DrugFAM there are other organisations
0:44:35 > 0:44:39so-called Anyone's Child. Their children have gone off to concerts
0:44:39 > 0:44:45or discos and whatever and have used ecstasy, as a lot of our young
0:44:45 > 0:44:48people do when they go to these places. Ecstasy is criminally
0:44:48 > 0:44:57supplied. They don't know what's in it it and their child died and the
0:44:57 > 0:45:02issue is, if we stay with the current position, the supply of all
0:45:02 > 0:45:06these drugs remains in the hands of criminals. How do we get to a place
0:45:06 > 0:45:09where we can regulate and control what people are going to put into
0:45:09 > 0:45:17their bodies?
0:45:17 > 0:45:25You are simply spouting, the evidence is of cures these drugs are
0:45:25 > 0:45:31damaging, that legalising them doesn't make them any less damaging,
0:45:31 > 0:45:34the common one tab co-and alcohol, they are still dangerous to those
0:45:34 > 0:45:42who use them, they are very much the subject of criminal acts, so both
0:45:42 > 0:45:47main planks of the argument are feeble. What you really must
0:45:47 > 0:45:50understand, Mr Blunt is decriminalisation has taken place in
0:45:50 > 0:45:55this country. In 1994 John O'Connor, a former head of the Flying Squad
0:45:55 > 0:45:59shade that cannabis was a decriminalised drug. The damage it
0:45:59 > 0:46:06does is not killing people, but it is increasingly correlated with
0:46:06 > 0:46:10serious irreversible mental illness, there is a cynical greed campaign,
0:46:10 > 0:46:17which seeks now to go to the Nketiah stage. The realisation, advertise,
0:46:17 > 0:46:23sale in supermarkets and more and more people and their families
0:46:23 > 0:46:27suffering permanent misery. ? You say there would be health
0:46:27 > 0:46:34improvements. Our cannabis is supplied by
0:46:34 > 0:46:39criminals and 90% is street cannabis is therefore, the cannabis that is
0:46:39 > 0:46:45most strongly linked to mental illness and psychosis.He has a good
0:46:45 > 0:46:52point in that respect.Of course it is dangerous.How do you make it
0:46:52 > 0:46:56better health wise?In you were in a position where you know what you are
0:46:56 > 0:47:01getting, because it is legally supplied and it is regulated and
0:47:01 > 0:47:07licensed and regular lated to whatever standard is appropriate.
0:47:07 > 0:47:14How can, do you get this stuff slfs this comes out a Christmas cracker.
0:47:14 > 0:47:19You haven't answered my point.Don't talk over each other.Cigaretted are
0:47:19 > 0:47:24regulated, are they safe?No. Tobacco is not a safe thing to
0:47:24 > 0:47:29smoke.Hang on, answer the point. Gentleman, if you talk over each
0:47:29 > 0:47:36other no-one can hear. You will get a word in. If we look at the example
0:47:36 > 0:47:42of Portugal, when they decriminalised the possession of
0:47:42 > 0:47:50drugs HIV infection and drug-related deaths did drop. .The Portuguese
0:47:50 > 0:47:56drug problem I said was not very great. By comparison with some other
0:47:56 > 0:48:01country, my point is not about deaths and drug use, my point, most
0:48:01 > 0:48:07particularly about the billionaire backed hugely financed campaign, to
0:48:07 > 0:48:13which Mr Blunt has fallen victim to legalise this drug so people can
0:48:13 > 0:48:20make enormous out of drugs.That is a different work. .Known can
0:48:20 > 0:48:27maintain...Let me let Alison in.I think this is is a regrettable way
0:48:27 > 0:48:33to have a serious discussion, I think that, because you keep
0:48:33 > 0:48:38interrupting and it has become an attack on Crispin whose position I
0:48:38 > 0:48:41don't entirely agree with to be honest with you, I would prefer us
0:48:41 > 0:48:45to look objectivity at the science, to marry that with ambition, for
0:48:45 > 0:48:50good mental health which we are failing to fund, and decent proper
0:48:50 > 0:48:55policing by consent, which we are failing to fund F we continue to
0:48:55 > 0:49:01throw rocks at each other we will never get to a proper policy.Are
0:49:01 > 0:49:05you just ignoring what are health benefits that have been pointed out.
0:49:05 > 0:49:11You take a different view. Will it help deal with the scourge of drug
0:49:11 > 0:49:19ruse.I am pointing out the major threat from cannabis, you support,
0:49:19 > 0:49:26you appear...Licensing and regulation. And we are going to see
0:49:26 > 0:49:30from the results of the Dan moving to this place.I was asking a
0:49:30 > 0:49:40question. I don't want yet another crossing out...Let me from seed to
0:49:40 > 0:49:49my panel. Panel. You are interrupting me. He is in favour of
0:49:49 > 0:49:54decriminalising cannabis.The reason being, as he is claiming it is
0:49:54 > 0:49:57dangerous, I would agree it is, one of the reasons it is more dangerous
0:49:57 > 0:50:02than it needs to be because it is surprised by criminals who don't
0:50:02 > 0:50:08give a monkey about the efengt it has on people. What I want to do at
0:50:08 > 0:50:15the evidence that is going to merge and look at the evidence of the
0:50:15 > 0:50:21danger, the criminalisation of this half a tri$tria year has done to
0:50:21 > 0:50:30states like member co-and so on, this goes wider,th a global issue.
0:50:30 > 0:50:34It has passed a -- criminals who fight and kill people in order to
0:50:34 > 0:50:37maintain their market share. There is a better and safer way of doing
0:50:37 > 0:50:43this.Shouldn't it be considered. Even giving young people a criminal
0:50:43 > 0:50:48record for possessing can bit can ruin their lives, is it worth it.Of
0:50:48 > 0:50:52course it can, that is the idea of having a law against cannabis
0:50:52 > 0:50:55possession to deter people from having anything to do with a drug
0:50:55 > 0:51:00that can ruin their lives and has ruined the lives of many young
0:51:00 > 0:51:03people and their families. Which is what it does. You are interrupting
0:51:03 > 0:51:13me.Should alcohol be banned.It is studio late. If it was being abused
0:51:13 > 0:51:17now. I would be in favour of pretending -- preventing it.Thank
0:51:17 > 0:51:22you.That is all I get?It was quite a lot.It was worth fighting for
0:51:22 > 0:51:23what I got.Thank you.
0:51:23 > 0:51:25Thank you.
0:51:25 > 0:51:27Now, it's Philip Hammond's birthday and if his friends and family
0:51:27 > 0:51:30were listening to his Budget last month then perhaps they should have
0:51:30 > 0:51:32bought him a new car - a driverless one.
0:51:32 > 0:51:35He's a big fan of the emerging technology and he's said he wants
0:51:35 > 0:51:38to see "fully driverless cars" on Britain's roads by 2021.
0:51:38 > 0:51:40But the motoring journalist Quentin Wilson thinks that could be
0:51:40 > 0:51:41an unrealistic ambition.
0:51:41 > 0:51:51Here's his soapbox.
0:52:05 > 0:52:07Driverless cars on Britain's roads in four years?
0:52:07 > 0:52:08Sounds a bit ambitious.
0:52:08 > 0:52:11Let's park that vision for a moment, and ask the question,
0:52:11 > 0:52:20where are we right now?
0:52:20 > 0:52:22Autonomous technology ranges from what's called level one,
0:52:22 > 0:52:24which is things like electronic distance control that we have now,
0:52:24 > 0:52:27all the way up to level five, where the machines drive better
0:52:27 > 0:52:33than the humans.
0:52:33 > 0:52:36We don't have that yet, but we do have this.
0:52:36 > 0:52:39The Tesla Model S, which is level two, and there are thousands
0:52:39 > 0:52:40of these on British roads right now.
0:52:40 > 0:52:42This car has auto-braking, auto-parking, auto-steering.
0:52:42 > 0:52:44It will change lanes on motorways itself, and it will even
0:52:44 > 0:52:54have a summon function.
0:53:02 > 0:53:04Your garage door opens and this car will automatically
0:53:04 > 0:53:05come and find you.
0:53:05 > 0:53:08It's great, but it's not level five, where there's no steering wheel
0:53:08 > 0:53:10and no human input at all.
0:53:10 > 0:53:18That comes a few years down the line.
0:53:18 > 0:53:20The Government is absolutely right to encourage this industry,
0:53:20 > 0:53:23because it creates millions of jobs, saves us all that tedious
0:53:23 > 0:53:25driving time and could cut accidents by as much as 80%.
0:53:25 > 0:53:28But politicians need to be careful they're not raising
0:53:28 > 0:53:34everybody's expectations.
0:53:34 > 0:53:36There's the legislation to sort out, there's the infrastructure,
0:53:36 > 0:53:39so don't go making promises that neither they nor the car
0:53:39 > 0:53:44industry can keep yet.
0:53:44 > 0:53:46And also I'd recommend that they go out and actually drive some
0:53:46 > 0:53:51autonomous cars themselves.
0:53:51 > 0:53:52Autonomous cars, then, are definitely coming,
0:53:52 > 0:53:55but it might be a bit premature to trade the Escort in quite yet.
0:53:55 > 0:54:01Every car manufacturer is working on them.
0:54:01 > 0:54:06They're all trying to get to that goal of level five.
0:54:06 > 0:54:13Who wouldn't want a Brave New World where machines do all the driving?
0:54:13 > 0:54:19HG Wells would be proud and he would absolutely love this Tesla.
0:54:19 > 0:54:21And Quentin Wilson joins us now.
0:54:21 > 0:54:24Is too late. If it was being abused now. I would be in favour of
0:54:24 > 0:54:26pretending -- preventing it. Thank you.That is all I get?It was quite
0:54:26 > 0:54:29a lot.It was worth fighting for what I got.Thank you.
0:54:29 > 0:54:31Is it terrifying the thought of no hands on the steering wheel?No,
0:54:31 > 0:54:34driving that was wonderful, because you know, we have to a stage where
0:54:34 > 0:54:37the thing drives itself, how ever, we are not at the stage where we can
0:54:37 > 0:54:41have cars that drive themselves without human intervention by 2021.
0:54:41 > 0:54:46Is that not possible?No, it is laughable. You are overpromising and
0:54:46 > 0:54:53they are confused with the diesel gate. They have lost billions in
0:54:53 > 0:54:59depreciation we are destabilising the car market. I am in favour of
0:54:59 > 0:55:04Britain being at the centre. We have to do it in a measured way. 37
0:55:04 > 0:55:10million drivers don't know what to do. Here is the dark side of this.
0:55:10 > 0:55:13If we carry on pushing consumers towards this brave New World that
0:55:13 > 0:55:19doesn't exist yet, we are going to cause a credit, a subprime credit
0:55:19 > 0:55:23crash in car, because they are all on what is known as personal
0:55:23 > 0:55:29contract plans, this could cause a real collapse in residual value, it
0:55:29 > 0:55:33could affect the banks.What if he promised something that is
0:55:33 > 0:55:39impossible.We are talking about timescale.He said by 2021 he wanted
0:55:39 > 0:55:44to see them on the road.In prototype. I don't imagine we will
0:55:44 > 0:55:49be rolling round in driverless cars by 2021.That isn't going to happen.
0:55:49 > 0:55:54But, Quentin is right.The UK needs to be in this place, in this
0:55:54 > 0:55:57technology, it is playing with technology of the future, we have to
0:55:57 > 0:56:04get the timescale right. And plainly, the car I have and the cars
0:56:04 > 0:56:09everyone has won't depreciate in value.Are you excited by the idea.
0:56:09 > 0:56:15I am generally excited by new technology, there is an issue in
0:56:15 > 0:56:19that in politics we saw off from like news cycle attention deficit in
0:56:19 > 0:56:24that we want to make newsy announcement, where
0:56:24 > 0:56:27industry, what people need is more kind of steady progress, so that we
0:56:27 > 0:56:32should be opening up, what we will do about regulation and investment,
0:56:32 > 0:56:37over a much longer period. Actually over the timescale of one
0:56:37 > 0:56:41Government, so we should be having much longer timescale gus pot ticks
0:56:41 > 0:56:46we are bad at that. Terrible.Let us look at the legal issues for you
0:56:46 > 0:56:50talked about the infrastructure, what about the legal issues, whose
0:56:50 > 0:56:55fault is it if there is a crash? That is the thing that the Select
0:56:55 > 0:57:00Committee was trying to work out you will have to have a network that is
0:57:00 > 0:57:04responsible because the Geneva Convention say you have to have a
0:57:04 > 0:57:09driver behind the wheel. We have to change that. The whole thing is the
0:57:09 > 0:57:17fact you have no human input. You won't get to that goal. We are not
0:57:17 > 0:57:21going to get it in the short time. I will be ten years before we get
0:57:21 > 0:57:28level four.How much money should be spent on it to make it happen?You
0:57:28 > 0:57:35will need to ask someone who is more expert. Plainly this is an area if
0:57:35 > 0:57:40you have a big budget for the country which we have and our
0:57:40 > 0:57:46science budget has been increasing despite the demands on public
0:57:46 > 0:57:53expenditure, there is an area the UK should be in.We saw cuts to stamp
0:57:53 > 0:58:02duty that will go to people who... Is that zero sum game.The value
0:58:02 > 0:58:07accrues to people who own homes, the reason I mention it. If we look at R
0:58:07 > 0:58:12and D and investment. What the Tories have done, is tax breaks and
0:58:12 > 0:58:17not build up an investment fund that says we have a massive wealth
0:58:17 > 0:58:24inequality. Why don't we look at the system.We will have to finish it
0:58:24 > 0:58:28there. We have had a tweet from Donald
0:58:28 > 0:58:35Tusk, he is feeling optimistic, tell me why I like Mondays he say, mist
0:58:35 > 0:58:42quoting the boom on the rats. -- boom town rats. Gets closer to
0:58:42 > 0:58:45sufficient progress at December. He is feeling positive.
0:58:45 > 0:58:46He is feeling positive.
0:58:46 > 0:58:47That's all for today.
0:58:47 > 0:58:48Thanks to our guests.
0:58:48 > 0:58:51The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now.
0:58:51 > 0:58:53I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big
0:58:53 > 0:58:55political stories of the day, do join me then.
0:58:55 > 0:58:59Bye-bye.