0:00:37 > 0:00:40Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:40 > 0:00:44The Government says it's confident a deal on Brexit can be reached,
0:00:44 > 0:00:46despite hopes of a breakthrough on the question of the Irish border
0:00:46 > 0:00:48being dashed yesterday.
0:00:48 > 0:00:50But can the Prime Minister find a solution that's
0:00:50 > 0:00:56acceptable to her supporters in the Democratic Unionist Party?
0:00:56 > 0:00:58Under Vince Cable, the Liberal Democrats
0:00:58 > 0:00:59are still firmly opposed to Brexit,
0:00:59 > 0:01:01but with little support to show for it so far,
0:01:01 > 0:01:08is it time for the party to change tack?
0:01:08 > 0:01:11We'll be taking a look at one of the most famous
0:01:11 > 0:01:13views of Parliament, after six paintings of Westminster
0:01:13 > 0:01:16by the French impessionist Claude Monet have gone on show
0:01:16 > 0:01:17in London for the first time.
0:01:17 > 0:01:21And it's been an exciting morning for England in the Ashes -
0:01:21 > 0:01:23we'll be talking to cricketing legend Henry Blofeld
0:01:23 > 0:01:33about a campaign to get sports like this shown on TV for free.
0:01:33 > 0:01:36All that in the next hour and with us for the whole
0:01:36 > 0:01:43of the programme today, the leader of the Liberal Democrats,
0:01:43 > 0:01:46economist and author of a book that apparently only narrowly missed out
0:01:46 > 0:01:48on recognition at this year's Bad Sex in Fiction Awards -
0:01:48 > 0:01:49it's Vince Cable.
0:01:49 > 0:01:53Welcome to the show.
0:01:53 > 0:01:55It was considered to be too good!
0:01:55 > 0:01:57It was considered to be too good!
0:01:57 > 0:02:00First today, let's talk about Brexit and the latest on those attempts
0:02:00 > 0:02:03to reach a deal ahead of next week's summit of EU leaders in Brussels.
0:02:03 > 0:02:05The post-mortem for just what went wrong yesterday,
0:02:05 > 0:02:07when many had predicted a breakthrough on the first part
0:02:07 > 0:02:12of the negotiations including the tricky question of what to do
0:02:12 > 0:02:15about the Irish border, is in full swing.
0:02:15 > 0:02:20Blame has been spread widely to include the British Government,
0:02:20 > 0:02:23the DUP, the Irish Government and the EU for leaking the whole
0:02:23 > 0:02:26thing and talking up the chances of a deal in the first place.
0:02:26 > 0:02:27Earlier this morning,
0:02:27 > 0:02:34the Chancellor Philip Hammond was asked what exactly had happened.
0:02:34 > 0:02:36We've been involved in a very complex negotiation that's been
0:02:36 > 0:02:39going on for some time.
0:02:39 > 0:02:42We have made a lot of progress over the last weeks,
0:02:42 > 0:02:43we've made tremendous steps forward.
0:02:43 > 0:02:45We are very close but we're not there yet.
0:02:45 > 0:02:48As the Prime Minister said yesterday,
0:02:48 > 0:02:50we will have to go for some further consultations,
0:02:50 > 0:02:52some further discussion today and she expects to come back
0:02:52 > 0:02:54to Brussels later in the week.
0:02:54 > 0:02:59But in the meantime, we've got work to do.
0:02:59 > 0:03:02Well, we're joined now by someone who's been watching all of this
0:03:02 > 0:03:04in more detail than is probably healthy - it's the BBC's
0:03:04 > 0:03:07Laura Kuenssberg.
0:03:07 > 0:03:12Welcome back from Brussels. What went wrong?Well, there is a wide
0:03:12 > 0:03:16variety of interpretations in terms of what went wrong, in terms of the
0:03:16 > 0:03:20choreography, what went wrong is clearly the DUP, who Theresa May
0:03:20 > 0:03:26needs to get her Brexit legislation through the common, she relies on
0:03:26 > 0:03:29them, had not been consulted enough in order to be completely happy with
0:03:29 > 0:03:33the draft agreement that was changed, tweaked, worked on over the
0:03:33 > 0:03:36weekend, so when Theresa May was sitting in her meeting with
0:03:36 > 0:03:42Jean-Claude Juncker, pictured happily there behind you, at that
0:03:42 > 0:03:46point, over in Belfast Arlene foster and her colleagues came down the
0:03:46 > 0:03:49stairs and said they weren't happy with it. At which point Theresa May
0:03:49 > 0:03:53had to leave her meeting with Jean-Claude Juncker, to have a
0:03:53 > 0:03:57private one or one phone call with Arlene Foster during the course of
0:03:57 > 0:04:02which Miss Foster said we can't put up with this. Theresa May had to say
0:04:02 > 0:04:07to Jean-Claude Juncker, it was off. Off. How we got to that point there
0:04:07 > 0:04:10are lots of different versions of events and we can talk about those
0:04:10 > 0:04:15in a moment.We will talk about why they are not happy. It is
0:04:15 > 0:04:18extraordinary that Theresa May had to come out of that meeting to talk
0:04:18 > 0:04:24to the DUP, as you say, who prop up Theresa May in this instance, whose
0:04:24 > 0:04:29fault was that that the DUP had not been properly consultanted.Fingers
0:04:29 > 0:04:36have been pointed. It has been suggested the newish Chief Whip
0:04:36 > 0:04:39assured the Prime Minister the DUP had been squared off. It has been
0:04:39 > 0:04:48put to me it is the fault officials in Number Ten Olly robins, one does
0:04:48 > 0:04:52wonder what the Prime Minister herself was making of it and why she
0:04:52 > 0:04:55thought it might be politically acceptable and her critics suggested
0:04:55 > 0:05:01she is too much of a manager not in fact somebody with real political
0:05:01 > 0:05:07nous. Of course there are fingers being pointed at the European Union
0:05:07 > 0:05:12for pushing Ireland too hard and Ireland pushing the UK too hard to a
0:05:12 > 0:05:15solution where they were making demands on these assurances, that
0:05:15 > 0:05:20were never going to be acceptable to their cousins ace co-the the Irish
0:05:20 > 0:05:26border in the north. In terms of who is officially to blame, Moeen, the
0:05:26 > 0:05:33talks go on. -- no-one. It will be fine by Friday.Let us talk about
0:05:33 > 0:05:39why the DUP ended up so unhappy. This is about regulatory alignment.
0:05:39 > 0:05:43It means probably very little to a lot of us, but it means Northern
0:05:43 > 0:05:48Ireland being treated the same as the Regs of the UK, they don't want
0:05:48 > 0:05:53to be treated any differently, except there are things they do in
0:05:53 > 0:05:56common with Ireland, issues that have been agreed in the Good Friday
0:05:56 > 0:06:01Agreement. What is it they were so unhappy about.It is a principle for
0:06:01 > 0:06:09the DUP. They do not want Brexit to mean that Northern Ireland looks
0:06:09 > 0:06:12less British than the rest of the United Kingdom, that is their reason
0:06:12 > 0:06:20for being. It they are a unionist party. There are issues on which
0:06:20 > 0:06:25they have cooperation, there is a lot of cooperation there. When they
0:06:25 > 0:06:31were unhappy about was the extend to which this proposed deal implied
0:06:31 > 0:06:36really that in future, Northern Ireland would be more closely tied
0:06:36 > 0:06:45to temperature EU in some areas than it would to the UK. As the UK
0:06:45 > 0:06:48strikes out on its own, Northern Ireland wouldn't be able to do that
0:06:48 > 0:06:53and therefore the paths of the two parts of the United Kingdom would be
0:06:53 > 0:07:00splitting. But why this is so neural jibbing, so toxic is because this is
0:07:00 > 0:07:06in some ways a proxy for the debate happening inside the Tory party.
0:07:06 > 0:07:10What kind of Brexit are we going to end up with, the vision that Philip
0:07:10 > 0:07:17Hammond would like to see, to make things easy, we stick closely to the
0:07:17 > 0:07:21European Union, we mirror what is happening or will we end up with the
0:07:21 > 0:07:27kind of Brexit where we strike out on our own, we are much more able to
0:07:27 > 0:07:34make changes as we see fit. It It's a principle for the Unionistings but
0:07:34 > 0:07:38difficult here because it pressed on bruise of the fight that has been
0:07:38 > 0:07:44going on for months now. It has been suggested to me it may get to the
0:07:44 > 0:07:49point there the pressure on her to walk. If the EU is not prepared to
0:07:49 > 0:07:55bury this for now, to postpone the Irish issue, Theresa May ought to
0:07:55 > 0:08:00walk out. IsVince Cable, negotiations like these, despite
0:08:00 > 0:08:05what some people said were going to be complicated. You have to get sow
0:08:05 > 0:08:12many people on side. Isn't this part and parcel of what happen and a deal
0:08:12 > 0:08:20is still possible.We are not talking about a final deal. From the
0:08:20 > 0:08:26foothills to the real mountains, you have a party that accounts for 1% of
0:08:26 > 0:08:30the British public which doesn't represent the majority in Northern
0:08:30 > 0:08:31Ireland,
0:08:33 > 0:08:39there is a lot of sheer incompetence, the one way the
0:08:39 > 0:08:43British public mood is change, their overall assessment of Brexit hadn't
0:08:43 > 0:08:46changed, but the one way is to feel the Government is handling this
0:08:46 > 0:08:51badly.They not changing their mind on Brexit are they?Not yet but we
0:08:51 > 0:08:56haven't seen what the outcome is, the one thing that is very striking,
0:08:56 > 0:09:01and the poll in the Mail on Sunday made it clear, is we have a
0:09:01 > 0:09:03significant margin, about 16% of those people who think there ought
0:09:03 > 0:09:08to be a referendum on the final deal. That was not the case before.
0:09:08 > 0:09:11We put that case in June in the election and didn't win the
0:09:11 > 0:09:17argument.You have improved your position in the polls as a result.
0:09:17 > 0:09:22Can I come back to this issue about parts of the Tory party that have
0:09:22 > 0:09:28jumped to some extent on the band wagon. You have Ruth Davidson saying
0:09:28 > 0:09:36why don't we do the same for the whole of the UK? Terms or aliving
0:09:36 > 0:09:42ourselves more closely to the EU. You can see, there could be more
0:09:42 > 0:09:46pressure and an attempt to have what we used to call, a soft Brexit.That
0:09:46 > 0:09:55is right. The one solution, one former minister said to me in
0:09:55 > 0:09:59Europe, technically it would be easy to fix all of this. Your say fine,
0:09:59 > 0:10:04we stay in the customs union, Theresa May has ruled that out and
0:10:04 > 0:10:10maybe half, two thirds of the 1922 of the Tory backbenchers wouldn't
0:10:10 > 0:10:15accept that, so there is a solution but that would have consequences
0:10:15 > 0:10:20about how we could strike free trade agreements and undermine
0:10:20 > 0:10:24opportunities that come after we leave the European Union. So it is
0:10:24 > 0:10:31difficult but in a sense we are seeing the red line, so many have
0:10:31 > 0:10:37faded to pink but her political box means that rather being able to make
0:10:37 > 0:10:43bold offers she is very much hemmed in. But I think someone was pulling
0:10:43 > 0:10:52the their hair out saying she won't be able to please everybody.Will
0:10:52 > 0:10:57there a deal?It is still possible. This is what I was going to say it
0:10:57 > 0:11:02it is all sides want there to be a deal. It is also the case while it
0:11:02 > 0:11:06would be politically inconvenient and not what Number Ten want,
0:11:06 > 0:11:10December isn't the last chance. It is feasible it could go on till
0:11:10 > 0:11:17match. Some people think why not? What is the rush because part of the
0:11:17 > 0:11:23problem is the time pressure. Business groups ofs are worried
0:11:23 > 0:11:26ain't vestment decisions being delayed. It is possible and if the
0:11:26 > 0:11:32DUP come back onboard by the end of the week, the policies would have a
0:11:32 > 0:11:38completely different complexion again.We look forward to that. Let
0:11:38 > 0:11:42us pause fourth for our daily quiz.
0:11:42 > 0:11:45The question for today is which party leader has taken part
0:11:45 > 0:11:47in a charity Christmas song, singing the Mariah Carey classic
0:11:47 > 0:11:56All I want for Christmas?
0:11:56 > 0:11:58At the end of the show, Vince will hopefully give us
0:11:58 > 0:12:00the correct answer.
0:12:00 > 0:12:04Can I tell you?No, you can wait to the end of the show!
0:12:04 > 0:12:07No, you can wait to the end of the show!
0:12:07 > 0:12:11We knew there would be plenty of shuttle diplomacy needed
0:12:11 > 0:12:13during the Brexit negotiations, and Theresa May has plenty more
0:12:13 > 0:12:16people to try and get onside in the coming weeks.
0:12:16 > 0:12:18This morning, she held a meeting of the Cabinet, where she will have
0:12:18 > 0:12:21had to explain why a deal hasn't yet been agreed.
0:12:21 > 0:12:23Convention is that the Prime Minister addresses Parliament
0:12:23 > 0:12:24after any significant EU meeting,
0:12:24 > 0:12:26but she won't be speaking to MPs today.
0:12:26 > 0:12:29The Prime Minister will instead hold talks with DUP leader Arlene Foster
0:12:29 > 0:12:30as she attempts to ease Unionist concerns
0:12:30 > 0:12:32that Northern Ireland could have a separate status
0:12:32 > 0:12:43within Britain under a future deal.
0:12:43 > 0:12:45She could then skip Prime Minister's Questions
0:12:45 > 0:12:47to head back to Brussels as early as tomorrow,
0:12:47 > 0:12:49to resume talks with European Commission President
0:12:49 > 0:12:50Jean Claude Juncker.
0:12:50 > 0:12:53The PM is under pressure to get an agreement on EU divorce issues
0:12:53 > 0:12:55before European leaders meet next Thursday to decide if enough
0:12:55 > 0:12:58progress has been made to start talks on post-Brexit trade.
0:12:58 > 0:13:00And, of course, that doesn't just include the tricky question
0:13:00 > 0:13:01of the Irish border,
0:13:01 > 0:13:04but also whether the European Court of Justice will have jurisdiction
0:13:04 > 0:13:12over EU citizens in the UK after Brexit, and for how long.
0:13:12 > 0:13:15Both sides say they're optimistic a deal can still be reached,
0:13:15 > 0:13:18but it has to be agreed by the EU, including Ireland,
0:13:18 > 0:13:20the Democratic Unionist Party's ten MPs who Theresa May relies on
0:13:20 > 0:13:21for her majority
0:13:21 > 0:13:23and the rest of the Conservative Party.
0:13:23 > 0:13:26And to help us make sense of why yesterday's talks failed to break
0:13:26 > 0:13:36the impasse on the status of the Irish border,
0:13:46 > 0:13:48I'm joined now by Allie Renison,
0:13:48 > 0:13:51head of Trade and Brexit Policy at the Institute of Directors.
0:13:51 > 0:13:54Delayed. It is possible and if the DUP come back onboard by the end of
0:13:54 > 0:13:56the week, the policies would have a completely different complexion
0:13:56 > 0:13:58again. We look forward to that. Let us pause fourth for our daily quiz.
0:13:58 > 0:14:01Can I tell you?No, you can wait to the end of the show!
0:14:01 > 0:14:04Thank you for joining us here. We talked briefly a moment ago about
0:14:04 > 0:14:06regulatory divergence and continued regulatory alignment, what is the
0:14:06 > 0:14:08difference?The tendency is to look at this, this is a discussion about
0:14:08 > 0:14:13is man Tibbs although if you were to peel back some of the layers, I
0:14:13 > 0:14:18think that allows, lead you down the path of ensuring this was the UK is
0:14:18 > 0:14:27more in step with EU rules governing stingle market. Along the lines of
0:14:27 > 0:14:35Norway and regulatory alignment althoughs you more.
0:14:35 > 0:14:41-- allows you more. More. Do you think this is an attempt to fudge it
0:14:41 > 0:14:45by changing the language and semantics of the text?It was'
0:14:45 > 0:14:51request how much you would would get to are lating to the Irish border in
0:14:51 > 0:14:55phase one, you know, the concern from businesses now and while those
0:14:55 > 0:15:00who deal in policy are following day-by-day what is going on, most
0:15:00 > 0:15:04businesses are saying as long as we get over the line next week that is
0:15:04 > 0:15:09all that matter, it is important for all parties to remember if we don't
0:15:09 > 0:15:13get sufficient progress next week, the noise for walking off without a
0:15:13 > 0:15:17deal becomes very loud. So that is the most important thing people are
0:15:17 > 0:15:22looking at. I am optimistic when ehear people like Jean-Claude
0:15:22 > 0:15:25Juncker and Donald Tusk saying they feel confident about getting a deal.
0:15:25 > 0:15:32In the past they have said that.Was it too optimistic to expect an
0:15:32 > 0:15:37agreement yesterday.We are not privvy to the different ins and
0:15:37 > 0:15:44outs. It is not clear to what extent all parties involved were being
0:15:44 > 0:15:48consulteded in advance so that is a question we saw people on the
0:15:48 > 0:15:56Commission saying today the show is in London, so that is obviousibly
0:15:56 > 0:16:02reflected, where is it the UK wants to head sequencely, what the last
0:16:02 > 0:16:0624, 48-hours shown that discussion about what the UK wants as a whole
0:16:06 > 0:16:11is suddenly being brought forward.
0:16:11 > 0:16:17How much detail, as you said, can be done at this stage? Or are we
0:16:17 > 0:16:19expecting the individual parties, whether it is the Irish Government
0:16:19 > 0:16:23or the DUP or the Conservative Party, to take on trust the broad
0:16:23 > 0:16:29outline at this stage before you can move on?You often hear when you are
0:16:29 > 0:16:32in Brussels discussion about the importance of the UK Government
0:16:32 > 0:16:35conveying that trust and goodwill that has happened in the past
0:16:35 > 0:16:39through the speeches that Theresa May has made, in Florence, you saw
0:16:39 > 0:16:42the money issue move after that and so I think what the Irish Government
0:16:42 > 0:16:47is probably looking for is a road map showing that no matter what
0:16:47 > 0:16:52happens, the Good Friday Agreement, the Belfast agreement, the North -
0:16:52 > 0:16:55South cooperation that exists will be protected and as long as there is
0:16:55 > 0:16:58another trust to show that that is what the UK intends to do, perhaps
0:16:58 > 0:17:04we can leave a lot of the practical discussions for phase two, because
0:17:04 > 0:17:08it feels like we are dancing around issues that cannot be separated from
0:17:08 > 0:17:12future arrangements overall.Thank you very much.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15We're joined now by the Conservative MP Kwazi Kwarteng, he's also an aide
0:17:15 > 0:17:17to Chancellor Philip Hammond,
0:17:17 > 0:17:18for Labour, the Shadow Brexit
0:17:18 > 0:17:20spokesperson, Jenny Chapman, and of course Vince Cable
0:17:20 > 0:17:24is our guest of the day.
0:17:24 > 0:17:28Should the DUP have been properly consulted and informed about the
0:17:28 > 0:17:33deal the Prime Minister was about to sign up to yesterday?I think the
0:17:33 > 0:17:36whole point of negotiation and the Prime Minister's conversation was it
0:17:36 > 0:17:41was only at the end of that process that they came up a formula of words
0:17:41 > 0:17:44and you can't inform people of the formula of word your going to come
0:17:44 > 0:17:48up with before you start the negotiation. I think there was a
0:17:48 > 0:17:52misunderstanding and I understand that from various blogs, one
0:17:52 > 0:17:57journalist from Ireland made a tweet about what the nature of the deal
0:17:57 > 0:18:01was the DUP essentially reacted to that. But it is clear to me that we
0:18:01 > 0:18:05can definitely get a deal. The Chancellor said this morning he is
0:18:05 > 0:18:08very confident of the deal and as you're into the Kuta said just now,
0:18:08 > 0:18:13both Tusk and Jean-Claude Juncker are very optimistic about getting a
0:18:13 > 0:18:21deal -- as your intolerant Kuta said.But Kwasi Kwarteng, Theresa
0:18:21 > 0:18:31May was having lunch with Donald Jean-Claude Juncker and the DUP has
0:18:31 > 0:18:34said there could be a withdrawal of support for the Government, why
0:18:34 > 0:18:39didn't I know what was being agreed? As I understand, there was a leak
0:18:39 > 0:18:42from the lunch, from the statement they were going to make, which had
0:18:42 > 0:18:48come out and they reacted in the way they did.Should there have been an
0:18:48 > 0:18:50exchange papers? Your colleague Owen Paterson has said it was
0:18:50 > 0:18:53extraordinary that there wasn't an exchange of official papers between
0:18:53 > 0:18:59the DUP the Government.I don't see it in the way he does at all.But
0:18:59 > 0:19:01that is why they are not supporting it and have scuppered this
0:19:01 > 0:19:05agreement.Before we get very excited about this, I'm very
0:19:05 > 0:19:08confident that a deal will be made and I'm also very confident that the
0:19:08 > 0:19:13DUP will be able to agree to the terms of any future deal that we
0:19:13 > 0:19:16have.What gives you that confidence? What is the Government
0:19:16 > 0:19:21going to do to get the DUP on board? I think the DUP have said and the
0:19:21 > 0:19:25Government have said that they want to treat Northern Ireland as a whole
0:19:25 > 0:19:28with the rest of the UK, and that is something the DUP and the
0:19:28 > 0:19:33Conservative Party is committed to, it is a Conservative and Unionist
0:19:33 > 0:19:39Party, for point and information. Was it a mistake to talk about
0:19:39 > 0:19:43regulatory alignment between Ireland and Northern Ireland?I think the
0:19:43 > 0:19:47regulatory alignment wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me. The DUP clearly
0:19:47 > 0:19:50had an issue with that and we are going to have to come up with a more
0:19:50 > 0:19:55specific formula of words to please them. I completely understand that,
0:19:55 > 0:19:58that is how negotiation and diplomacy is conducted.But it is
0:19:58 > 0:20:02not just a form of words, there is going to have to be a decision by
0:20:02 > 0:20:05the Government as to whether they are going to align Northern Ireland
0:20:05 > 0:20:10with the EU more closely, which the DUP has said no to, but if they
0:20:10 > 0:20:13don't do that, then the Irish Government isn't going to agree
0:20:13 > 0:20:19because they thought yesterday we can to have regulatory equivalence
0:20:19 > 0:20:22between Northern Ireland and Ireland.But equivalence is in the
0:20:22 > 0:20:26same as alignment. I don't want to get into a semantic debate. Clearly
0:20:26 > 0:20:29regulatory alignment is different to regulatory equivalence so we can do
0:20:29 > 0:20:35a deal based on Northern Ireland and Ireland and the rest of the EU.Do
0:20:35 > 0:20:39you think a deal is possible? It seems that actually this can be
0:20:39 > 0:20:43squared and it was about people leaking details too soon yesterday.
0:20:43 > 0:20:48I think it is shocking what happened yesterday. What happened was
0:20:48 > 0:20:51embarrassing for the country. It is extraordinary that the Prime
0:20:51 > 0:20:58Minister didn't keep the DUP informed, didn't... I spoke to the
0:20:58 > 0:21:01DUP last night and again this morning, informally, and they are
0:21:01 > 0:21:07very cross that they felt that they weren't respected and included and
0:21:07 > 0:21:11kept informed and they felt that the Conservative Party hadn't really got
0:21:11 > 0:21:16to know them, but I think they feel they do now, and the Prime Minister
0:21:16 > 0:21:21needs to take a very, very different approach. She seems to have this
0:21:21 > 0:21:23attitude, on many occasions, actually, where she wants to do
0:21:23 > 0:21:29deals privately but she falls short on the aspects of it which are
0:21:29 > 0:21:32around communication and bringing people with her and it's a very
0:21:32 > 0:21:35important quality when you are talking about this kind of
0:21:35 > 0:21:39negotiation.We will come onto substance, but it was mishandled and
0:21:39 > 0:21:43the DUP are very cross?I think what you said in the question to the
0:21:43 > 0:21:47Labour representative was right, I think it was a question of a tweet,
0:21:47 > 0:21:50it was a question of leaked statements which were slightly
0:21:50 > 0:21:55misinterpreted.So we lose a deal on the back of a tweet, is that what
0:21:55 > 0:22:01you are saying?I am not saying that.Well, the practical result is
0:22:01 > 0:22:05a deal hasn't been done.Jenny will understand that we live in a social
0:22:05 > 0:22:10media age and people react to all of that.Did the Number Ten operation
0:22:10 > 0:22:14failed to come up to standards?We are very close to a deal and I think
0:22:14 > 0:22:17a deal is eminently achievable and far more likely than not and we will
0:22:17 > 0:22:21have made significant progress. All of these people, Vince and Jenny,
0:22:21 > 0:22:24were saying it is never going to happen, doomsayers right from the
0:22:24 > 0:22:27start and they never thought we would get a deal and it is a real
0:22:27 > 0:22:31credit to the Government that we are going to achieve a deal in the time
0:22:31 > 0:22:37we have.Isn't that what you did say, that this is a mess?We haven't
0:22:37 > 0:22:41got a deal yet. On the two big areas where the Government claims it has
0:22:41 > 0:22:45got an agreement, which is on the rights of citizens and on the money,
0:22:45 > 0:22:47basically it has happened because the British Government has signed up
0:22:47 > 0:22:52to what the European Union asked for a year ago. They knew exactly what
0:22:52 > 0:22:57was coming down the track. And on the Irish question, Jenny is right,
0:22:57 > 0:23:00it was terribly incompetent but underneath the incompetence, there
0:23:00 > 0:23:05is a fundamental problem of difference. This isn't the question
0:23:05 > 0:23:10of no in sign language. You may well get some agreement on regulatory
0:23:10 > 0:23:13convergence or divergence, which is about the single market but the
0:23:13 > 0:23:17basic issue of freedom of movement across the frontier through trade,
0:23:17 > 0:23:20which is a customs union issue, has not been resolved and hasn't even
0:23:20 > 0:23:25been confronted.You will know it wasn't part of the first phase of
0:23:25 > 0:23:31discussion, you have said that yourself earlier.Well, let's clear
0:23:31 > 0:23:36up labours position, because do you agree, Jenny Chapman, with Ruth
0:23:36 > 0:23:39Davison, who says it regulatory alignment in a number of specific
0:23:39 > 0:23:42areas is the requirement for a frictionless border, the Prime
0:23:42 > 0:23:46Minister must conclude this should be on a UK wide basis. Should we
0:23:46 > 0:23:50stay in a customs union?I completely agree with Ruth on saying
0:23:50 > 0:23:54it is a UK wide basis. We cannot have separate deals for bits of the
0:23:54 > 0:24:00United Kingdom, so yes on that. Should we stay in a customs union?
0:24:00 > 0:24:02We would not have ruled out membership of the customs union in
0:24:02 > 0:24:06the way the Prime Minister has and I am sure she regrets that because she
0:24:06 > 0:24:09has boxed herself in, and by taking that of the table, something the
0:24:09 > 0:24:13Labour Party would not have done and we would have kept the customs union
0:24:13 > 0:24:16not just on the table but we would have wanted it for the transition
0:24:16 > 0:24:21period as well...So what would your deal look like at this stage, if you
0:24:21 > 0:24:25don't even know with few would have been in or out of the customs union?
0:24:25 > 0:24:32We would keep it on the table.So how could you do actively to do an
0:24:32 > 0:24:35agreement?You don't need the full details.you need to know if you
0:24:35 > 0:24:40want to be in or out of the customs union.What we would say is we are
0:24:40 > 0:24:45not ruling out membership.Vince Cable is clear, once to stay in a
0:24:45 > 0:24:50customs union and the single market. That is a clear position, you may
0:24:50 > 0:24:53like it or not. The Conservatives are saying we must be outside the
0:24:53 > 0:24:57customs union and outside the single market. Again, you may not agree
0:24:57 > 0:25:02with it. And the Labour position is we are not sure.The Labour position
0:25:02 > 0:25:06is we would keep it on the table and negotiate from that position. This
0:25:06 > 0:25:10is a negotiation, this is not a situation where Theresa May can turn
0:25:10 > 0:25:15up in Brussels and say this is what I want, this is what I must have.
0:25:15 > 0:25:18You have criticised the Government because you say we need to know what
0:25:18 > 0:25:21the Government actually once and they said what they want.Watching
0:25:21 > 0:25:26is to do is go to Brussels and say we are not ruling out the customs
0:25:26 > 0:25:30union, which could be the solution to not just future jobs and trade
0:25:30 > 0:25:36for the whole of the UK, but solves this absolutely critical issue of
0:25:36 > 0:25:40the Irish border and people who are saying, like Kwasi Kwarteng, that we
0:25:40 > 0:25:44want to be out of the customs union, cannot answer how you solve the
0:25:44 > 0:25:48Irish border. They are prepared to sacrifice that.That is the solution
0:25:48 > 0:25:52and what would you say if Theresa May, in the end, agrees that that is
0:25:52 > 0:25:57the only way to solve this problem, is to say we are going to stay in
0:25:57 > 0:26:01some sort of customs union in order to have that frictionless border?I
0:26:01 > 0:26:07think you put it very well...And some I question.My position is
0:26:07 > 0:26:10clear, we have got to come out of the customs union and out of the
0:26:10 > 0:26:14single market. The issue about the customs union is if we stay in a
0:26:14 > 0:26:18customs union, we will not be able to strike bilateral deals with any
0:26:18 > 0:26:24other country and that is very, very important. A very important part of
0:26:24 > 0:26:26Britain's sovereignty and opportunities. The Labour position
0:26:26 > 0:26:31is as clear as mud, frankly, on all these issues. I respect Vince's
0:26:31 > 0:26:35position, he has a clarity and thinks we should never have left and
0:26:35 > 0:26:39we should stay in the EU forever and a day, but what I am saying is we
0:26:39 > 0:26:44are going to leave.What is your view of Labour's position, is it a
0:26:44 > 0:26:47more nuanced position and would it have worked in these negotiations,
0:26:47 > 0:26:51saying we won't rule out staying in the customs union?I was
0:26:51 > 0:26:55disappointed with the lack of clarity, as you obviously were but
0:26:55 > 0:26:58the point is we need to know what the end point is. Is the objective
0:26:58 > 0:27:04to stay in or go out? I think we are reasonably clear where we need to
0:27:04 > 0:27:08be, and unless it is absolutely clear, at the end of the transition,
0:27:08 > 0:27:11are you going to be in the single market and customs union or not?
0:27:11 > 0:27:14That question has to be answered. That is what we would be
0:27:14 > 0:27:20negotiating. We want a solution that solves the Irish border and protects
0:27:20 > 0:27:24jobs and the economy and a whole of the UK.But doesn't actually
0:27:24 > 0:27:28amounted to Brexit.We don't want a solution that treat different parts
0:27:28 > 0:27:33of the UK differently. With the best will in the world, it is not the
0:27:33 > 0:27:36Labour Party negotiating in Brussels.Does that mean you
0:27:36 > 0:27:39shouldn't have a clear position?We do have a clear position that takes
0:27:39 > 0:27:43us through the negotiation phase and transition, which is estimated that
0:27:43 > 0:27:48two years. That is not bad in terms of clarity from a party that isn't
0:27:48 > 0:27:51actually in the negotiations and we would have handled yesterday a hell
0:27:51 > 0:27:56of a lot better than we saw from the Tory party.Let me just ask, Kwasi
0:27:56 > 0:27:59Kwarteng, on the European Court of Justice, do you want to see an end
0:27:59 > 0:28:05to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice on EU citizens'
0:28:05 > 0:28:09rides in the UK after Brexit?I would like to see an end to the
0:28:09 > 0:28:14overall jurisdiction of the ECJ. went?I suspect that the end of
0:28:14 > 0:28:19transition period in 2021. I don't see it in 2019 because I think we
0:28:19 > 0:28:21are going to have a transition but certainly by the end of this
0:28:21 > 0:28:26Parliament, we should be out of their jurisdiction and that is a
0:28:26 > 0:28:28clear part of the whole debate about Brexit.
0:28:28 > 0:28:32I think we have heard that Theresa May is going to be speaking to both
0:28:32 > 0:28:36Arlene Foster, head of the DUP, and Michelle O'Neill for Sinn Fein later
0:28:36 > 0:28:41on today, obviously to try to get further agreement. Beyond
0:28:41 > 0:28:44transition, would you accept any jurisdiction of the European Court
0:28:44 > 0:28:49of Justice on citizens' rides.No, I want full sovereignty of the United
0:28:49 > 0:28:53Kingdom. I think we have got perfectly good human rights records,
0:28:53 > 0:28:55a perfectly good judicial system respected around the world and I
0:28:55 > 0:28:59think the rights of the EU citizen here will be confirmed by our own
0:28:59 > 0:29:05courts.Is that possible?It is fine as far as it goes but we are not
0:29:05 > 0:29:09just talking about EU citizens, we are talking about British citizens
0:29:09 > 0:29:12on the continent and where did they go? Where do they get redress should
0:29:12 > 0:29:18they have an issue? We are saying, if you take Kwasi Kwarteng's
0:29:18 > 0:29:23position, they would not have access to the ECJ to solve anything and it
0:29:23 > 0:29:27seems to be a red line put there for ideological reasons by the Prime
0:29:27 > 0:29:31Minister to keep people like Kwasi onside.She wouldn't need to do that
0:29:31 > 0:29:35to keep the onside.She probably wishes she hadn't been quite so
0:29:35 > 0:29:41emphatic about that.If there is no agreement at this stage before
0:29:41 > 0:29:45moving on to phase two by December, should the Prime Minister walk away?
0:29:45 > 0:29:49I think in any negotiation, you should be prepared to walk away,
0:29:49 > 0:29:52that is the whole point. That is one of the reasons David Cameron got
0:29:52 > 0:29:56into the model that he did because it was clear that he wasn't prepared
0:29:56 > 0:30:03to walk away. I think the chances of a deal of very high and if it
0:30:03 > 0:30:06doesn't come to fruition this month, we have until March.So you are
0:30:06 > 0:30:10saying you should wait until March, you wouldn't walk away.Ultimately,
0:30:10 > 0:30:13you should have the ability to walk away from any negotiation, that is
0:30:13 > 0:30:17the whole point. I do think we are so close that we should give it a
0:30:17 > 0:30:20little more time in order to get the deal.Just before I let you go,
0:30:20 > 0:30:25should the DUP be calling the shots? I don't think they are particularly
0:30:25 > 0:30:29calling the shots. They have ten MPs and they know we rely on them from
0:30:29 > 0:30:33Parliamentary majority but it is very much the Prime Minister and
0:30:33 > 0:30:34Conservative Government. There are no Government ministers in the DUP
0:30:34 > 0:30:40driving this.But they don't represent the majority in Northern
0:30:40 > 0:30:43Ireland.They don't, and we will talk more about your position and we
0:30:43 > 0:30:58can bring that up then. Thank you to both of you.
0:30:58 > 0:31:04Mark D'Arcy is in central lobby.The point of the urgent question is
0:31:04 > 0:31:08obviously just to maximise the Government's embarrassment. Keir
0:31:08 > 0:31:11Starmer is at his best in prosecuting barrister mode and he
0:31:11 > 0:31:15will have lots to play with. The real interest is going to be looking
0:31:15 > 0:31:20at what some other groups are saying on the kith backbencher, there are
0:31:20 > 0:31:23groups lining up at the moment to make sure that their particular view
0:31:23 > 0:31:29of how Brexit should unfold is hammered home, so there will be
0:31:29 > 0:31:35people with unionist views saying no separate solution for Northern
0:31:35 > 0:31:39Ireland, others saying customs union applying in Northern Ireland, why
0:31:39 > 0:31:44can't we have it. Watch the Scottish Tories in particular, they are
0:31:44 > 0:31:47operating as a distinct group. One said we can see them hunting as a
0:31:47 > 0:31:51pack all the time. They will be influential, if they flex their
0:31:51 > 0:31:55muscles it is behind the scene, watch what they have to say because
0:31:55 > 0:32:01they speak with the voice of Ruth Davidson.What about Universal
0:32:01 > 0:32:04Credit, because this has been a contentious issue for the
0:32:04 > 0:32:10Conservatives not least because some on their own side don't like the way
0:32:10 > 0:32:15it has been operationally rolled out. This is down Labour.This this
0:32:15 > 0:32:19is a Labour motion, a strange Parliamentary device called a humble
0:32:19 > 0:32:25address to Her Majesty, it is a device that can be pass, voted
0:32:25 > 0:32:31through on an opposition they will work. The Government's dismiss voted
0:32:31 > 0:32:36against it as purely symbolic votes but the Speaker has said they work.
0:32:36 > 0:32:41This is to get the Government to deliver up a series of reports from
0:32:41 > 0:32:45the major projects authority on how the implementation of Universal
0:32:45 > 0:32:48Credit has been working out, in the knowledge they are not a flattering
0:32:48 > 0:32:51picture of the way this important benefit is being rolled out across
0:32:51 > 0:32:57the country. The idea is to force if Government to disgorge what maybe
0:32:57 > 0:33:03potentially embarrassing documents. Thank you for bringing us
0:33:03 > 0:33:05up-to-date.
0:33:05 > 0:33:08Now, our Guest of the Day Vince Cable took over the leadership
0:33:08 > 0:33:09of the Liberal Democrats after the general election
0:33:09 > 0:33:12earlier this year, at a rocky time for his party.
0:33:12 > 0:33:15The party has 12 MPs in the Commons, an increase on the eight seats
0:33:15 > 0:33:18they held after the 2015 election but still a long way
0:33:18 > 0:33:20from the 57 seats they held during the Coalition years.
0:33:20 > 0:33:23They took 7.4% of the vote share in the June election.
0:33:23 > 0:33:28Opinion polls have not shown an improvement
0:33:28 > 0:33:30in their fortunes since then, with the latest Survation poll
0:33:30 > 0:33:35at the weekend showing support for the party at just 6%.
0:33:35 > 0:33:39But the party has gained 11 council seats in by-elections
0:33:39 > 0:33:41since the June election, giving them a net gain
0:33:41 > 0:33:47of seven councillors.
0:33:47 > 0:33:51Slim situation isn't it for the Liberal Democrats. A poll found half
0:33:51 > 0:33:56of those asked support a referendum on the final Brexit deal. And if
0:33:56 > 0:34:00those numbers are accurate why do so few people support the Liberal
0:34:00 > 0:34:05Democrats?We haven't had a test of electoral support yet, we may have
0:34:05 > 0:34:12an election in three or four years' time. There will be local elections
0:34:12 > 0:34:15next May, probably Parliamentary by-election, locally we are doing
0:34:15 > 0:34:21well.Better but not well.We haven't had a test of support. The
0:34:21 > 0:34:27opinion polls are where they have been for some years.6%.Six to
0:34:27 > 0:34:31nine, it is a are -- vary, the Secretary of State is yet to come.
0:34:31 > 0:34:35What is beginning to happen and your owe tasting of the poll brings this
0:34:35 > 0:34:41out our basic position on the issue of the day which is Brexit chimes
0:34:41 > 0:34:46with a lot of the public.Why are you sticking with it. You say there
0:34:46 > 0:34:49hasn't been an electoral test, we have had the general election, I
0:34:49 > 0:34:53will take the by-election, the polls haven't moved so why are you
0:34:53 > 0:34:58sticking with the policy that that has so for not ended up in any more
0:34:58 > 0:35:04support for you.In the general election, I won and came back from
0:35:04 > 0:35:09exile, personally it was a success as it was for some of my colleague,
0:35:09 > 0:35:13but the general election is past. I mean, the situation is changing very
0:35:13 > 0:35:18rapidly, a lot of people who voted Remain in the referendum, basically
0:35:18 > 0:35:22gave the Government the benefit of the doubt. They thought they could
0:35:22 > 0:35:26negotiate a soft Brexit. It is becoming clear...Or they voted for
0:35:26 > 0:35:30the Labour Party.This is unlikely to happen. The performance of the
0:35:30 > 0:35:35Labour Party in way counters your point. What happened was within days
0:35:35 > 0:35:40the Labour Party moved from being complete no-hopers, to being
0:35:40 > 0:35:45seriously challenging. The British electorate is very volatile. The
0:35:45 > 0:35:52issue of Brexit is unresolved. All the polls show this there is a
0:35:52 > 0:35:56strong public reaction against the polarisation of the two major party,
0:35:56 > 0:36:00that give us an opportunity.Except there hasn't been anything to show
0:36:00 > 0:36:04that opportunity...There hasn't been much to show for it yet.Those
0:36:04 > 0:36:10within your own party, your former colleague John Pugh said there is a
0:36:10 > 0:36:14danger all our national political band width is consumed by the Brexit
0:36:14 > 0:36:18issue and we become Aznar Rowley defined as Ukip. He has a point
0:36:18 > 0:36:24doesn't he?I did say at party conference we are not Ukip in
0:36:24 > 0:36:29reverse, I set out a set of issues round National Health Service, the
0:36:29 > 0:36:33commitment to fighting inequality. Economic policy, sanity, which
0:36:33 > 0:36:39things we stand for and that is the broader issue, as I happens I
0:36:39 > 0:36:45campaigned for John Pugh and he won a by-election in his own area, he
0:36:45 > 0:36:49wasn't expected to win and he did. That is one of the sign where we are
0:36:49 > 0:36:54organised, we have a good position, we come back.There is is a one in
0:36:54 > 0:37:01five chance Brexit won't happen, I presume you still believe that.
0:37:01 > 0:37:06There is no marked difference in the poll, what Europe would we be
0:37:06 > 0:37:14staying in in would we will Babel to revert back to our special status?I
0:37:14 > 0:37:20think what was, what is happening, very clearly, is that, in a way
0:37:20 > 0:37:28there is a new structure emerging, you have an inner core built round
0:37:28 > 0:37:34the eurozone which wants tighter integration, but there is an outer
0:37:34 > 0:37:37group which consists is of Scandinavian countries and
0:37:37 > 0:37:42potentially Britain which want to be part of the European Union because
0:37:42 > 0:37:46of the considerable benefits it has through the supermarket, cooperation
0:37:46 > 0:37:50on -- single market but do not want that level of integration.You think
0:37:50 > 0:37:54we could retain that...It is tragic we are walking away at the moment
0:37:54 > 0:37:58when Europe is being reformed in a way that would be comfortable for
0:37:58 > 0:38:02the UK.Would we will Babel to keep our rebate?Almost certainly we
0:38:02 > 0:38:08would.Why? Why would they give us that?This depends on the
0:38:08 > 0:38:14circumstances in which we chose to remain. If we pulled Article 50 and
0:38:14 > 0:38:17stayed within the European, having had a referendum of the public, I
0:38:17 > 0:38:21don't think the European Union are going to raise major objection, they
0:38:21 > 0:38:24have made it clear they would be happy to have it back on the old
0:38:24 > 0:38:31terms. If we had left and tried to reapply, you are right. A Celtic of
0:38:31 > 0:38:35additional conditionings would be apply.Do you think there is going
0:38:35 > 0:38:41to be a fragmentation of the UK in the way outlined to get an
0:38:41 > 0:38:44aagreement, that different parts of the UK will have to do their own
0:38:44 > 0:38:50thing?I think there is a risk. I think one needs to make a
0:38:50 > 0:38:54distinction between the Scottish situation and Northern Ireland. In
0:38:54 > 0:38:59zlolt is a deep anger they have been treated differently but at the same
0:38:59 > 0:39:04time there is a unionist majority in Scotland, that seems to be growing.
0:39:04 > 0:39:10The problem with Ireland, there is a risk of a return to the troubles
0:39:10 > 0:39:17because it is impossible to reconcile the divergent positions of
0:39:17 > 0:39:24Ireland...A deal was nearly done. Let us go back to the Liberal
0:39:24 > 0:39:28Democrats. Jo Swinson is being investigated over her expenses
0:39:28 > 0:39:32spending during the election, was it appropriate for the party to respond
0:39:32 > 0:39:36by saying the allegations were a classic SNP tactic when they have
0:39:36 > 0:39:42lost an election? Where is your evidence for that?I was in Scotland
0:39:42 > 0:39:47when this emerged, the people who were conducting the election were
0:39:47 > 0:39:52confident that they had observed the rules as advised by the Electoral
0:39:52 > 0:39:57Commission. ? How do you know it is the SNP? They, as far bah as I
0:39:57 > 0:40:00understand it that is where the objections came from.They denied
0:40:00 > 0:40:09it.The central point is it is being investigated. I don't think this
0:40:09 > 0:40:13will go any further.How long do you give yourself and the party to turn
0:40:13 > 0:40:23it round?I am not setting a time limit. I have been through bad times
0:40:23 > 0:40:29before. We were an asterisk in the opinion poll once, a few months
0:40:29 > 0:40:34later we were back, we have been through a difficult...They might
0:40:34 > 0:40:42get fed up with you.I am willing to face that.Is there...There is no
0:40:42 > 0:40:47pact. She is an excellent colleague. We get on well as a partnership.As
0:40:47 > 0:40:50you
0:40:50 > 0:40:50may
0:40:50 > 0:40:52Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:40:52 > 0:40:55The Government says it's confident a deal on Brexit can be reached,
0:40:55 > 0:40:57despite hopes of a breakthrough on the question of the Irish border
0:40:57 > 0:40:58being dashed yesterday.
0:40:58 > 0:41:09But can the Prime Minister find a solution that's
0:41:11 > 0:41:13A London cloaked in the ashy fog of Industrial Revolution.
0:41:13 > 0:41:16The same view hot and cold in fading light.
0:41:16 > 0:41:18If you are searching for a picture of Parliament,
0:41:18 > 0:41:25it is probably Monet's Thames series you see in your mind's eye.
0:41:25 > 0:41:28The father of the Impressionists, Claude Monet, spent three
0:41:28 > 0:41:30winters in London painting the Palace of Westminster.
0:41:30 > 0:41:34This is the fist time so many of the Thames series
0:41:34 > 0:41:41have been in one place for nearly 50 years.
0:41:41 > 0:41:45He only painted the Houses of Parliament in late
0:41:45 > 0:41:48afternoon and at sunset.
0:41:48 > 0:41:49He was very disciplined.
0:41:49 > 0:41:55He left the Savoy at usually four o'clock, walked along the Thames
0:41:55 > 0:42:00and set up his easel on a covered terrace in St Thomas's Hospital.
0:42:00 > 0:42:02Caroline Corbeaut-Parsons is the curator of the
0:42:02 > 0:42:05Impressionists in London.
0:42:05 > 0:42:07Monet painted the Houses of Parliament for the first
0:42:07 > 0:42:09time during his exile during the Franco-Prussian
0:42:09 > 0:42:10war in 1870.
0:42:10 > 0:42:15At that point, the building had only just officially been completed.
0:42:15 > 0:42:18When he decided to paint it, he chose a radically new subject,
0:42:18 > 0:42:20which is interesting, and something we have completely
0:42:20 > 0:42:26lost, because when we look at that picture, we think,
0:42:26 > 0:42:27"Oh, another picture of the Houses of Parliament."
0:42:27 > 0:42:32But no, it was something new.
0:42:32 > 0:42:35This exhibition at Tate Britain is all about how London was viewed
0:42:35 > 0:42:37through the eyes of French artists, fleeing Paris during the
0:42:37 > 0:42:39Franco-Prussian war in the 1870s.
0:42:39 > 0:42:42They came to London because Paris was in ruins
0:42:42 > 0:42:48and they were looking for rich patrons.
0:42:48 > 0:42:55They would have a lasting impact on the British art scene.
0:42:55 > 0:42:57I think if you look at French guides, London guides
0:42:57 > 0:43:02in French at the time, they all comment on the sheer mass
0:43:02 > 0:43:05of the Houses of Parliament, and the amount of money that British
0:43:05 > 0:43:08taxpayers, I guess, at the time had to pay for this,
0:43:08 > 0:43:15and I think it must have really struck them at a time when Paris
0:43:15 > 0:43:18was, you know, still in ruins.
0:43:18 > 0:43:20And so it was the power of the British Empire,
0:43:20 > 0:43:22air thick with smoke, that so fascinated Monet
0:43:22 > 0:43:23and his contemporaries.
0:43:23 > 0:43:25Of course London was very polluted at that stage,
0:43:25 > 0:43:28and there were actually more people in Central London than now,
0:43:28 > 0:43:31so it was very, very busy.
0:43:31 > 0:43:40There were, he said, purple fogs, brown fogs, green fogs,
0:43:40 > 0:43:42fogs of every single colour, and this is reflected in the variety
0:43:42 > 0:43:45of colours that you find, you know, in his Houses
0:43:45 > 0:43:46of Parliament paintings.
0:43:46 > 0:43:50The exhibition runs until May next year.
0:43:50 > 0:43:53We're joined now by the art dealer and presenter of Fake or Fortune,
0:43:53 > 0:43:56Philip Mould.
0:43:56 > 0:44:01Welcome. It is a far cry from the sun lit lily ponds we are used to
0:44:01 > 0:44:07from Monet.He loved London and I think the impressionists though, are
0:44:07 > 0:44:12distinctive in that respect. They sought alternative subject matter,
0:44:12 > 0:44:17they love gardens and railways and smoke and industrialism. That is
0:44:17 > 0:44:21what they are about. That is what making them so exciting as their
0:44:21 > 0:44:25brush strokes.Indeed. They are beautiful paintings. Do you think
0:44:25 > 0:44:31they are beautiful?Unquestionably, it is rather curious it took a
0:44:31 > 0:44:34Frenchman with his 19 canvases of the Palace of Westminster, to
0:44:34 > 0:44:38immortalise it so beautifully.Yes, and why? Was there a political
0:44:38 > 0:44:43statement as well as the brush strokes?I suspect there was. These
0:44:43 > 0:44:48are exhibited in 1904. In that the entente cordiale was signed, and I
0:44:48 > 0:44:56suspect what could have been a rather unsettling symbol of imperil
0:44:56 > 0:45:00live was rather cosy.What do you think it said about London and the
0:45:00 > 0:45:06country at the time, being painted by Monet.It is ironic, our
0:45:06 > 0:45:11pollution was a marvellous catalyst to a certain type of impressionist.
0:45:11 > 0:45:16What is it? It is a sensual response, it is articulating what is
0:45:16 > 0:45:22in front of you but filing it. There was something about dirt and smog
0:45:22 > 0:45:26and fog and that view that was up lifting for Monet, and he captured
0:45:26 > 0:45:32it. I think he saw the opportunity in London to do something he hadn't
0:45:32 > 0:45:40done before. I think it made a Dame sight more successful image nan a
0:45:40 > 0:45:47water lily.What do you think, are you going to see it.Yes, art is
0:45:47 > 0:45:56political, on some of the most powerful paintings, as you know
0:45:56 > 0:46:00well, Picasso and Goya.This is Monet and the Houses of Parliament?
0:46:00 > 0:46:05We need to take art seriously.It is very interesting you should say
0:46:05 > 0:46:09that, politics can be ephemeral but great art is about endurance, when
0:46:09 > 0:46:17you put them together it can be explosive, and I remember when I was
0:46:17 > 0:46:22advising the House of Commons arts committee, and Tony Banks was chair,
0:46:22 > 0:46:27they had just received a good sum of money to commission a statue of
0:46:27 > 0:46:31Margaret Thatcher for members lobby, and the members of the committee who
0:46:31 > 0:46:37were predominantly Labour said over our dead body.
0:46:37 > 0:46:43Tony Banks, who understood the power of art and politics, knew it had to
0:46:43 > 0:46:47be done and swung the day and said, goodness' sake, we have to pull
0:46:47 > 0:46:52something then come the revolution! Was Monet actually carrying out a
0:46:52 > 0:46:55rather gentle viewer politics with those paintings of the Houses of
0:46:55 > 0:47:03Parliament -- view of politics?Yes, he was, let's not forget just hope
0:47:03 > 0:47:06wonderfully uplifting, Ed official and historical this masterpiece of
0:47:06 > 0:47:14secular Gothic is. I mean, it is big then and a lot of other things
0:47:14 > 0:47:17beside -- Big Ben. I don't think you can escape from the sort of iconic
0:47:17 > 0:47:22power, the totemic power of that.So was it radical of Monet other time?
0:47:22 > 0:47:27I think what was radical about Impressionism and impressionists as
0:47:27 > 0:47:33they were looking for alternative subject matter and he found, in
0:47:33 > 0:47:38London, next to the Thames, in bricks, mortar and through a veil of
0:47:38 > 0:47:43smog, just the most perfect thing. He had me there. Thank you very
0:47:43 > 0:47:44much.
0:47:44 > 0:47:47It's been an exciting morning not only because of all the Brexit news,
0:47:47 > 0:47:50but also because England have been involved in a gripping run chase
0:47:50 > 0:47:53against Australia on day four of the second Ashes Test.
0:47:53 > 0:47:57And I have absolutely no idea what most of that means.
0:47:57 > 0:47:58I have an idea of some of it.
0:47:58 > 0:48:02But luckily Elizabeth does.
0:48:02 > 0:48:03Do I?
0:48:03 > 0:48:04Thanks, Jo.
0:48:04 > 0:48:06Yes, all eyes in the cricketing world are focused
0:48:06 > 0:48:08on the Adelaide Oval ground,
0:48:08 > 0:48:10where England and Australia are battling it out.
0:48:10 > 0:48:12But because the television rights to show the Ashes are fiercely
0:48:12 > 0:48:15fought over by broadcasters, the action is only available
0:48:15 > 0:48:17to view by those willing to pay a subscription.
0:48:17 > 0:48:21Well, MPs are calling for that to change, and for big sporting
0:48:21 > 0:48:24events like the Ashes to once again be broadcast on terrestrial,
0:48:24 > 0:48:27free-to-view, television.
0:48:27 > 0:48:30Leading the charge is the Labour MP John Grogan, who joins us
0:48:30 > 0:48:34from our very own Daily Politics cricket ground,
0:48:34 > 0:48:41and with him is the cricketing legend, Henry Blofeld.
0:48:41 > 0:48:45Welcome to you both. John, could you start by telling me what you are
0:48:45 > 0:48:50actually looking to change?Well, cricket is like great art, really,
0:48:50 > 0:48:55it is part of our heritage and it has been hidden away for 15 years on
0:48:55 > 0:48:58subscription TV and it means kids are not inspired to play the game.
0:48:58 > 0:49:03The number of kids playing cricket has been going down, more kids
0:49:03 > 0:49:06recognise a worldwide wrestler than the England cricket captain in a
0:49:06 > 0:49:11recent survey, so we do have a law in our country that says certain
0:49:11 > 0:49:15events should be on free to air TV and at least I think the highlights
0:49:15 > 0:49:20of all Ashes series home and away should be on free to air TV. The
0:49:20 > 0:49:24home series is, certainly the away series should be, so when the kids
0:49:24 > 0:49:27come home from school tomorrow, they will be able to see the highlights
0:49:27 > 0:49:34of two Yorkshireman scoring centuries to win the second Test.It
0:49:34 > 0:49:39is all about the Yorkshiremen. Henry blow felt, do you agree, not having
0:49:39 > 0:49:43these sort of competitions on domestic TV affects our view of them
0:49:43 > 0:49:49and our ability to join as a nation and enjoy them?Yes, and in all
0:49:49 > 0:49:53possible worlds, we would want free to air cricket on television but
0:49:53 > 0:49:58there is the awful dichotomy, which is money. The ECB, the England and
0:49:58 > 0:50:02Wales Cricket Board, have done a deal with Sky and the BBC which
0:50:02 > 0:50:10begins, I think, in Twenty20 and that is worth 1.1 billion. But I am
0:50:10 > 0:50:16with you absolutely entirely with this, it would be lovely if the
0:50:16 > 0:50:19highlights could be seen every night on free to air. I don't think we'll
0:50:19 > 0:50:22ever get the actuality because of the money but I think highlights
0:50:22 > 0:50:26would be terrific. I think it is utterly wrong if youngsters cannot
0:50:26 > 0:50:29see their heroes in action on the day they have done so well or so
0:50:29 > 0:50:34badly.We are keeping everything crossed at the moment, aren't we?
0:50:34 > 0:50:39John, that is a good point from Henry, essentially, this is a
0:50:39 > 0:50:42commercial decision and this money is very, very important to cricket
0:50:42 > 0:50:49and its future.It is, I mean, it is a balance, isn't it? Cricket would
0:50:49 > 0:50:54probably recognise they have the balance slightly wrong. Most boards,
0:50:54 > 0:50:58tennis, rugby union, football, have some coverage on free to air and
0:50:58 > 0:51:03cricket when the other way to 15 years. Henry is right, we are
0:51:03 > 0:51:07looking forward to three years' time when there will be live cricket back
0:51:07 > 0:51:10on the BBC and they have promised to give it the full coverage like the
0:51:10 > 0:51:15FA Cup and for the first time, there will be some county cricket and A20
0:51:15 > 0:51:20internationals and it can't come soon enough.Henry, the Ashes
0:51:20 > 0:51:22series, where does it come on the list of great sporting events which
0:51:22 > 0:51:25mark win over world cups, we know about Wimbledon, where does the
0:51:25 > 0:51:32Ashes stand?What a question to ask me! It stands right at the very top!
0:51:32 > 0:51:36But wouldn't it be wonderful if we were to get up and win this match
0:51:36 > 0:51:39tomorrow, though the odds must be against. One has so often seen sides
0:51:39 > 0:51:43chasing big totals and look as though they might but they never
0:51:43 > 0:51:47quite do. If they did, every child in the country is going to want to
0:51:47 > 0:51:52see Joe Root celebrating his 200 and Jonny Bairstow, maybe he can get a
0:51:52 > 0:51:59100 and celebrated with a headbutt, who knows?Who in deed, hendry can I
0:51:59 > 0:52:07push you, you say it looks unlikely. What is your prediction?My
0:52:07 > 0:52:10prediction is Australia will win, although I hope I am wrong, I always
0:52:10 > 0:52:14hope I'm wrong when I say things like that but logic must look
0:52:14 > 0:52:17towards Australia. But occasionally, logic falls flat on its face and
0:52:17 > 0:52:22let's hope it does tomorrow in Adelaide.Life is full of surprises.
0:52:22 > 0:52:27I was surprised to win my seat in June and I expected to be watching
0:52:27 > 0:52:31Yorkshire County Cricket, instead of which I was an MP, I think we will
0:52:31 > 0:52:34win by one wicket.Two mentions of Yorkshire in one interview, thank
0:52:34 > 0:52:40you very much both of you. Not sure if you are a cricket fan, Vince, but
0:52:40 > 0:52:44can I get your prediction?I am entirely with John Grogan on the
0:52:44 > 0:52:48prediction and a basic principle of terrestrial television. One of my
0:52:48 > 0:52:51earliest memories of childhood is seeing England humiliate Australia
0:52:51 > 0:52:56and Jim Laker bowling ten wickets in one innings. These things happen and
0:52:56 > 0:52:59excite you as a child and lived with you for the rest of your life.We
0:52:59 > 0:53:03can but hope. I like the way you didn't ask me for
0:53:03 > 0:53:04my prediction!
0:53:04 > 0:53:06Now, last week, we talked to East Staffordshire councillor
0:53:06 > 0:53:08Deneice Florence-Jukes.
0:53:08 > 0:53:13She was challenging Debretts to get rid of what she called the outdated
0:53:13 > 0:53:14advice to call female councillors "Councillor Mrs".
0:53:14 > 0:53:17Well, she won that battle and Debretts agreed to make the change.
0:53:17 > 0:53:20But then she turned her attention to the next front -
0:53:20 > 0:53:21the council itself.
0:53:21 > 0:53:24I asked if she was confident she'd win a vote to change
0:53:24 > 0:53:26the terminology used there.
0:53:26 > 0:53:29I would hope so.
0:53:29 > 0:53:31There has been a little bit of resistance to some change
0:53:31 > 0:53:34in certain quarters, but I hope once they hear my
0:53:34 > 0:53:37argument in full in chambers on Monday, I'll manage to convince
0:53:37 > 0:53:40them that it's the right move.
0:53:40 > 0:53:42Well, that was last Thursday - but despite Deneice's
0:53:42 > 0:53:44best efforts last night, the East Staffordshire Borough
0:53:44 > 0:53:49Council voted to allow women to keep using the title "Councillor Mrs"
0:53:49 > 0:53:57by 14 votes to 13.
0:53:57 > 0:54:00The winning motion said councillor should be able to choose how they
0:54:00 > 0:54:05are addressed. We can talk again to Deneice Florence-Jukes. Are you
0:54:05 > 0:54:12disappointed?Yes, I am. It is a blow for sending a clear message to
0:54:12 > 0:54:15the people in the borough that we are open and forward-thinking and we
0:54:15 > 0:54:20are not hung up on titles, so it is a degree of disappointment.What
0:54:20 > 0:54:25actually happened at the meeting?I tabled my original motion and an
0:54:25 > 0:54:31amendment was put in to basically delete my idea that all councillors
0:54:31 > 0:54:38should be called by a gender neutral title of councillor, followed by
0:54:38 > 0:54:41their names, and an amendment was put in to say councillor should be
0:54:41 > 0:54:46allowed to choose what they call. Which I can agree with to a certain
0:54:46 > 0:54:51point, but my argument there is we are a body and we should stick to
0:54:51 > 0:54:55our title of councillor.Right, but as you say, there isn't anything
0:54:55 > 0:54:59wrong with freedom of choice, which is what the council wants to do. We
0:54:59 > 0:55:03have got an e-mail here that says you e-mailed one of the colleagues
0:55:03 > 0:55:07in the council team requesting that from time to time on, she should be
0:55:07 > 0:55:15addressed simply as councillor Florence - Jukes, and that was put
0:55:15 > 0:55:21into effect, so if you want to drop the title, you can.It was a bit of
0:55:21 > 0:55:25a battle to drop that title, it wasn't straightforward. Initially, I
0:55:25 > 0:55:28was told the council had never been approached about the subject before
0:55:28 > 0:55:32and when I asked for legal clarification, I was told they do
0:55:32 > 0:55:36indeed follow Dabritz, and it was only when I challenged it again and
0:55:36 > 0:55:39said significantly can I be called councillor Florence- Jukes, that
0:55:39 > 0:55:46they allowed it.It wasn't as straightforward as it might appear.
0:55:46 > 0:55:49What is your view, Vince Chris Watt you have a message for East Stafford
0:55:49 > 0:55:57a council?There is a point behind etiquette, people know where they
0:55:57 > 0:56:01stand, so you call somebody a chair, chairperson, chairwoman or a
0:56:01 > 0:56:04chairman, you have a simple set of rules and avoid a lot of
0:56:04 > 0:56:11embarrassment and get on with the real business.Deneice, do you think
0:56:11 > 0:56:14that is right?I do to a point but my argument has not been about what
0:56:14 > 0:56:17individual councillors want to be called, it was about the wider
0:56:17 > 0:56:21message. We are majorly underrepresented by so many groups
0:56:21 > 0:56:25on the council and it was a way of putting a message out that if you
0:56:25 > 0:56:29want to enter public life, we are welcoming, non-discriminatory and
0:56:29 > 0:56:35that was the whole idea behind it, so to a point I can agree that, you
0:56:35 > 0:56:38know, they should be entitled to be called what they want but not in a
0:56:38 > 0:56:42public setting. I think the title councillor is a stand-alone, gender
0:56:42 > 0:56:49neutral, one size fits all title. And on that basis, I will say thank
0:56:49 > 0:56:52you to you, councillor Deneice Florence-Jukes. We can get an update
0:56:52 > 0:56:56on the fallout from the Brexit negotiations yesterday. Here is
0:56:56 > 0:56:59David Davis and his Shadow Keir Starmer in the House of Commons in
0:56:59 > 0:57:03the last few moments.Our aims in this negotiation remain as they have
0:57:03 > 0:57:07always been, in particular on the issue of Northern Ireland and
0:57:07 > 0:57:11Ireland, we have been clear we want to protect all elements of the Good
0:57:11 > 0:57:14Friday Belfast Agreement to maintain the Common travel area and
0:57:14 > 0:57:18associated rights. We want to ensure there is no hard border between
0:57:18 > 0:57:22Ireland and Northern Ireland. We recognise as we ex-it we must
0:57:22 > 0:57:25respect the integrity of the EU single market and the customs union,
0:57:25 > 0:57:31equally clear we need to respect the integrity of the United Kingdom.It
0:57:31 > 0:57:36is one thing to go to Brussels and fallout with those on the other side
0:57:36 > 0:57:39of negotiating table. It is quite another to go to Brussels and
0:57:39 > 0:57:44fallout with those supposedly on your own side of negotiating table.
0:57:44 > 0:57:46Arguments continuing in the House of Commons.
0:57:46 > 0:57:50There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
0:57:50 > 0:57:52The question was which party leader has taken part
0:57:52 > 0:57:55in a charity Christmas song, singing the Mariah Carey classic
0:57:55 > 0:57:57All I Want For Christmas?
0:58:07 > 0:58:11I haven't a clue but I would guess that Nicola Sturgeon.You are wrong,
0:58:11 > 0:58:14I'm afraid, it is the DUP leader Arlene Foster.
0:58:14 > 0:58:17Yes, the DUP leader has taken part in a charity single -
0:58:17 > 0:58:19along with other MLAs - for the Northern Irish charity
0:58:19 > 0:58:21Aspire NI, which helps children in poverty.
0:58:21 > 0:58:23So let's have a look at her in action.
0:58:23 > 0:58:25# I just want you for my own
0:58:25 > 0:58:32# More than you could ever know...
0:58:32 > 0:58:38She's got a good boys, hasn't she was there a bit of...On the basis
0:58:38 > 0:58:44of that, politician should keep out of music.I thought it was quite
0:58:44 > 0:58:48impressive.Being charitable, this is Christmas.I think she might have
0:58:48 > 0:58:53had a little bit of help. Thank you to all of my guests but particularly
0:58:53 > 0:58:57to Vince Cable for being guest of the day. One o'clock is starting on
0:58:57 > 0:59:00BBC One and we are back tomorrow with PMQs.