0:00:38 > 0:00:41Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44Theresa May has until Sunday to come up with fresh proposals
0:00:44 > 0:00:46on the Irish border, so says the European Commission,
0:00:46 > 0:00:49or she faces the prospect of Brexit talks being delayed till
0:00:49 > 0:00:50the New Year.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53But does she have the authority to knock the necessary heads together?
0:00:53 > 0:00:57We'll have the latest.
0:00:57 > 0:00:58The Government says President Trump's decision
0:00:58 > 0:01:00to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel
0:01:00 > 0:01:02is "unhelpful" to the peace process as international condemnation
0:01:02 > 0:01:10grows.
0:01:10 > 0:01:12The Defence Secretary says British citizens who join so-called
0:01:12 > 0:01:15Islamic State should not be allowed to return to the UK and says
0:01:15 > 0:01:23we should do all we can to "eliminate that threat".
0:01:23 > 0:01:25And in the wake of the sexual harassment allegations
0:01:25 > 0:01:27in Westminster we speak to the British political journalist
0:01:27 > 0:01:29who is among the so-called 'Silence Breakers' who've been named
0:01:29 > 0:01:37as Time magazine's Person of the Year.
0:01:37 > 0:01:40All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole
0:01:40 > 0:01:42of the programme today is Martha Spurrier,
0:01:42 > 0:01:44director of the Human Rights organisation Liberty -
0:01:44 > 0:01:48welcome to the show.
0:01:48 > 0:01:53The Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson has said that the crack cocaine of
0:01:53 > 0:01:56Islamist terrorism the fault of repressive ray jeeps not western
0:01:56 > 0:02:02foreign policy. His speech at the Foreign Office this morning comes a
0:02:02 > 0:02:07week after Michel Barnier raised eyebrows by saying that in voting to
0:02:07 > 0:02:11leave the EU the UK was refusing to stand shoulder to shoulder with its
0:02:11 > 0:02:14European allies in the fight against terrorism. Here is Boris Johnson
0:02:14 > 0:02:20speaking in the last hour.Contrary to some of the Acerions you will
0:02:20 > 0:02:28have heard from overseas I can tell you that every day, British serving
0:02:28 > 0:02:34men and women are putting thrives at risk to roll up terrorist network,
0:02:34 > 0:02:39to expose what they are doing, to thwart them, and to bring them to
0:02:39 > 0:02:45justice. They are doing it not just on the
0:02:45 > 0:02:51behalf of the British people but for everyone.
0:02:51 > 0:02:55May they are making good on what the Prime Minister has called the
0:02:55 > 0:02:58unconditional commitment of the British people, to the security of
0:02:58 > 0:03:03our European friends. That was Boris Johnson, talking
0:03:03 > 0:03:08about the threat of terrorism. What did you think about Michel Barnier's
0:03:08 > 0:03:12comments saying that once Britain decided to leave the EU, they would
0:03:12 > 0:03:16no longer be standing shoulder to shoulder or a risk of no longer
0:03:16 > 0:03:20standing shoulder to shoulder with their partners over security.I
0:03:20 > 0:03:24would be amazed if anyone who voted to leave the European Union did so
0:03:24 > 0:03:27thinking it was a good thing not to stand shoulder to shoulder in the
0:03:27 > 0:03:31fight against terrorism. Think it is right you can have very strong
0:03:31 > 0:03:34alliances with people, whether you are in a union with them or not.
0:03:34 > 0:03:38That is what we should be aiming for. I think what it does really
0:03:38 > 0:03:42underline is it is important to get this stuff in black-and-white. It is
0:03:42 > 0:03:48important to make sure that we can stand shoulder to shoulder, by
0:03:48 > 0:03:52speaking out about the values that we all hold dear together, and
0:03:52 > 0:03:56agreeing together how we are going to enforce them globally. So that is
0:03:56 > 0:04:01things like making sure we can still share information about criminals so
0:04:01 > 0:04:06victims' rights are protected or we can share data in a way that
0:04:06 > 0:04:10protects or privacy right so all of those things are important.You see
0:04:10 > 0:04:15no difficulty between the two Brexit Britain still that level of
0:04:15 > 0:04:20cooperation with the EU, even if we don't have oversight if you like or
0:04:20 > 0:04:22jurisdiction from something like the European Court of Justice.I don't
0:04:22 > 0:04:27think there is any difficulty in principle. I is about our moll
0:04:27 > 0:04:32fissions making sure it is enshrined in UK law.
0:04:32 > 0:04:34US President Donald Trump's decision to recognise Jerusalem
0:04:34 > 0:04:38as the capital of Israel and move the US Embassy there from Tel Aviv
0:04:38 > 0:04:40has led to wide-spread condemnation from US allies around the world.
0:04:40 > 0:04:42The announcement fulfils a campaign promise from the President,
0:04:42 > 0:04:45and he said it was "nothing more or less than a recognition
0:04:45 > 0:04:51of reality".
0:04:51 > 0:04:53However, the UK Government has said it does not support the decision.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56This is what Foreign Office Minister Alistair Burt had to say
0:04:56 > 0:05:03in the Commons earlier today.
0:05:03 > 0:05:06As my right honourable friend, the Prime Minister, made clear
0:05:06 > 0:05:08in her statement yesterday, we disagree with the US decision
0:05:08 > 0:05:10to move its embassy to Jerusalem, and recognise Jerusalem
0:05:10 > 0:05:13as the Israeli capital before a final status agreement.
0:05:13 > 0:05:15We believe it is unhelpful, in terms of prospects
0:05:15 > 0:05:19for peace in the region.
0:05:19 > 0:05:23The British Embassy to Israel is based in Tel Aviv and we have
0:05:23 > 0:05:25no plans to move it.
0:05:25 > 0:05:27Donald Trump is not crying fire in a crowded theatre,
0:05:27 > 0:05:30he is deliberately setting fire to the theatre.
0:05:30 > 0:05:33Then he has the unbelievable cheek to claim that he is doing this
0:05:33 > 0:05:36to move forward the peace process, when in reality, he is
0:05:36 > 0:05:40setting it back decades.
0:05:40 > 0:05:43Well, we are joined now by Dr Alan Mendoza
0:05:43 > 0:05:47from the Henry Jackson Society, and Martha is still with us.
0:05:47 > 0:05:51Welcome to the programme. How does this recognition, this official
0:05:51 > 0:05:55recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel help the peace
0:05:55 > 0:06:00process and a two state solution?It is incidental to the peace process,
0:06:00 > 0:06:03it has been 25 years old now, currently there is no peace process
0:06:03 > 0:06:09at this moment in time. And what President Trump has said and stated
0:06:09 > 0:06:13it is time to recognise reality. Jerusalem has been the capital of
0:06:13 > 0:06:17Israel since 1948, and he stated it is not going to pre-judge the final
0:06:17 > 0:06:22talks when and if they come. It is not about division, it is about
0:06:22 > 0:06:26recognising reality, they can select its own capital.How important in
0:06:26 > 0:06:30your mind is the idea of Jerusalem also has the capital of a future
0:06:30 > 0:06:34Palestinian state.That is highly likely.It is not incidental to the
0:06:34 > 0:06:40peace process.It doesn't preclude it. Why do you think declaring
0:06:40 > 0:06:44Jerusalem as a capital precludes it from being the capital of Palestine.
0:06:44 > 0:06:50I don't see they are incompatible. Do you think it is stating reality
0:06:50 > 0:06:54despite the sensitivities? Absolutely not. I think this is a
0:06:54 > 0:07:00recognition of a capital in an occupied territory, it is contrary
0:07:00 > 0:07:04to British foreign... I am delighted the Prime Minister has condemned the
0:07:04 > 0:07:09move. We have already seen that there is unrest and what this will
0:07:09 > 0:07:12lead to is a worsening of the conflict situation there, people
0:07:12 > 0:07:17will be hurt and people's lives will be lost. It sets back a peace
0:07:17 > 0:07:21process we no is fragile and that is a dangerous move.When you say it is
0:07:21 > 0:07:26occupied Jerusalem you mean east Jerusalem is occupied or is whole?
0:07:26 > 0:07:32East just is recognised as occupied. But west Jerusalem you are happy
0:07:32 > 0:07:36with as the capital?I don't know what you can have is a capital in a
0:07:36 > 0:07:40territory which is so fraught in this peace process s it demonstrates
0:07:40 > 0:07:44a successful I don't agree that you can say is for a democratic ally to
0:07:44 > 0:07:48name its capital, we can't say we want our capital to be Paris or
0:07:48 > 0:07:52somewhere else in the world.In your mind what is the capital of Israel?
0:07:52 > 0:07:55The capital of Israel is Tel Aviv. That is the way it must remain.It
0:07:55 > 0:08:01isn't. It is Jerusalem. The Israelis have controlled Jerusalem since
0:08:01 > 0:08:051948. The western part. They extended control to eastern
0:08:05 > 0:08:10Jerusalem in 6, for you to suggest Tel Aviv is not the cap is the
0:08:10 > 0:08:14capital of Israel is the same as Israelis saying Manchester is the
0:08:14 > 0:08:18capital of Britain.How inflammatory is it of Donald Trump to make what
0:08:18 > 0:08:25will be seen as an unnecessary move to announce they are going to
0:08:25 > 0:08:28transfer the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, when it has been
0:08:28 > 0:08:33perfectly fine in Tel Aviv, all this time?Whendown saw it is
0:08:33 > 0:08:37unnecessary, Donald Trump is looking to spark a process, and move things
0:08:37 > 0:08:41on, we have not been able to get peace talks going.How will this
0:08:41 > 0:08:48help spark the peace process when Hamas in the Gaza Strip has said
0:08:48 > 0:08:53they have already call for a new intifada.Hamas is not party to the
0:08:53 > 0:08:57talks, it hasn't been part of the peace process for 25 year, there is
0:08:57 > 0:09:04no indication it will be part of the peace process o peace process going
0:09:04 > 0:09:09forward.This has made it much more difficult.I don't think it will. On
0:09:09 > 0:09:12the contrary, what he needs to understand, is that Palestinians
0:09:12 > 0:09:16cannot continue to be the blocking party to this, the Israelis have for
0:09:16 > 0:09:20the last 25 years put deal after deal on the table and the
0:09:20 > 0:09:23Palestinians starting with yas is a Arafat have walked away from the
0:09:23 > 0:09:29deals. It is time to say there are consequences, the world moves on, we
0:09:29 > 0:09:36can't be frozen, the paradigm of 94 forever.I am going to bring in my
0:09:36 > 0:09:38colleague diplomatic correspondent James Landale to talk briefly about
0:09:38 > 0:09:42Boris Johnson and what he said, because you have been listening to
0:09:42 > 0:09:47that speech, we talked earlier about a response to the comments made by
0:09:47 > 0:09:49Michel Barnier about whether Britain would be able to stand shoulder to
0:09:49 > 0:09:54shoulder with the EU in the future on security. Just tell us what he
0:09:54 > 0:10:00has been saying.Well, the Foreign Secretary, we use a phrase
0:10:00 > 0:10:05wide-ranging for speeches, he did range over a great deal. He did
0:10:05 > 0:10:09without mentioned Michelle barn yes put a push back and say by leaving
0:10:09 > 0:10:15the European Union, the UK is in no way standing, stepping back from the
0:10:15 > 0:10:18fight against Islamist terrorism. On Israel he was interesting in terms
0:10:18 > 0:10:23of what you have been discussing in terms of the US decision to
0:10:23 > 0:10:28recognise Jerusalem as the capital. He said is on the onus for the US to
0:10:28 > 0:10:32go further, they have played this card, the US now has to make a play
0:10:32 > 0:10:36another card on the wider Middle East peace process, say this is what
0:10:36 > 0:10:39the brokerage, the role that the United States can play there, so
0:10:39 > 0:10:45trying to put more pressure back on the US, and more broadly over the
0:10:45 > 0:10:49issue of Brexit, Boris Johnson was asked about that. What he said there
0:10:49 > 0:10:55was he said that any deal had to be UK-wide. Any offer to the DUP. He
0:10:55 > 0:11:01made it very clear that anything had to ensure that once again, to use
0:11:01 > 0:11:06his phrase Britain secured control over its borders and its money. So
0:11:06 > 0:11:09as ever, maintaining pretty hard position on that.Thank you very
0:11:09 > 0:11:15much. Let's pick up on that. That Boris Johnson actually says the onus
0:11:15 > 0:11:20is back on the United States, what should be done to bring Mohammad
0:11:20 > 0:11:23Abbas and the Palestinians to the table?I think the drive is
0:11:23 > 0:11:28happening right now, you have seen for the last few months, a move by
0:11:28 > 0:11:31the President Trump and the administration to bring in the wider
0:11:31 > 0:11:36Arab world.How? What have they done that will bring Mohammad Abbas to
0:11:36 > 0:11:41the table?He needs to be pressured by Saudi Arabia, and the Gulf states
0:11:41 > 0:11:46to say we want a settlement. They are using the threat of Iran to
0:11:46 > 0:11:50bring everything together.Saudi Arabia has condemned the move. What
0:11:50 > 0:11:54way will it help them get involved as you say when they have been
0:11:54 > 0:11:57united to some extent over the issue of Iran to pull the Palestinians
0:11:57 > 0:12:01into...This is not an important point in great scheme.It is very
0:12:01 > 0:12:05important to the Palestinians. It is critical.Not the Saudi, what you
0:12:05 > 0:12:11will see happen is the continued moves between the Israelis, the
0:12:11 > 0:12:13Saudis for other gulf states, parties worried about the Iranian
0:12:13 > 0:12:17threat. This will be a kink in the road. It will go back to being that
0:12:17 > 0:12:22alliance strategy.On the basis of Donald Trump's track record do you
0:12:22 > 0:12:28think this was throughout through, there is a strategy, isn't this
0:12:28 > 0:12:32again clumsiness on behalf of the President where in this case as
0:12:32 > 0:12:35Martha indicated it could end up with violence.I don't think so, if
0:12:35 > 0:12:40you look at what he has been saying for the last eight months on the
0:12:40 > 0:12:44issue of Middle East peace there is a plan, it has been executed by
0:12:44 > 0:12:47going to the gulf, going to Israel, trying to bring the parties
0:12:47 > 0:12:50together. This is the next step. There will be other steps to follow.
0:12:50 > 0:12:51Thank you.
0:12:51 > 0:12:52Thank you.
0:12:52 > 0:12:54Now it's time for our daily quiz.
0:12:54 > 0:13:00Yesterday, Stanley Johnson, father of Boris, was booted out
0:13:00 > 0:13:02of the Jungle in I'm a Celebrity.
0:13:02 > 0:13:04He said he was looking forward to checking his emails,
0:13:04 > 0:13:10but what did he want to find out?
0:13:10 > 0:13:12If England were winning the Ashes.
0:13:12 > 0:13:14If his son, Boris, was still Foreign Secretary.
0:13:14 > 0:13:15If Donald Trump had abandoned Twitter.
0:13:15 > 0:13:18Or if he was getting an invite to the Royal wedding next year.
0:13:18 > 0:13:28At the end of the show Martha will give us the correct answer.
0:13:33 > 0:13:36The European Commission has said a deal on the Irish border will need
0:13:36 > 0:13:41to be done by Sunday, in order for EU and Britain to begin discussing
0:13:41 > 0:13:45trade negotiations at the EU summit next Thursday. So how close are we
0:13:45 > 0:13:52to an agreement. Well, let us
0:13:52 > 0:13:54look at the developments
0:13:54 > 0:13:56look at the developments
0:13:56 > 0:13:59Irish Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said last night he had
0:13:59 > 0:14:05spoken to Theresa May, who told him she was working to find
0:14:05 > 0:14:07a "specific solution" to the Irish border issue and would come back
0:14:07 > 0:14:10to the Irish government with new text in the coming days.
0:14:10 > 0:14:12On the other side - the DUP are continuing talks
0:14:12 > 0:14:15with the government but one source told the Sun newspaper this morning
0:14:15 > 0:14:18that they won't be rushed into an agreement because "this
0:14:18 > 0:14:21is a battle of who blinks first and we've cut off our eyelids".
0:14:21 > 0:14:23In another development, a group of Tory MPs has written
0:14:23 > 0:14:26a letter criticising colleagues who they say are acting "highly
0:14:26 > 0:14:28irresponsibly" by talking up the prospects of a no deal.
0:14:28 > 0:14:30The letter, which was arranged by Conservative MP Nicky Morgan,
0:14:30 > 0:14:33is signed by 19 Tory backbenchers and says it's "essential" Britain
0:14:33 > 0:14:43leaves the EU with a deal.
0:14:43 > 0:14:45And Chancellor Philip Hammond said yesterday Britain should pay
0:14:45 > 0:14:48the £50 billion exit bill with the European Union, even if
0:14:48 > 0:14:49Britain doesn't get a trade deal.
0:14:49 > 0:15:00That will go down well with his Eurosceptic colleagues.
0:15:01 > 0:15:04overnightThere is lots of talk about deadlines what I am certain
0:15:04 > 0:15:08about is people want something to happen, they will make it happen, so
0:15:08 > 0:15:11we are going to get on with the job and try and find the right way
0:15:11 > 0:15:17forward. I am in no doubt over the coming days if there was a will to
0:15:17 > 0:15:20find agreement that will be found regardless of what time of day or
0:15:20 > 0:15:24night it was.It could be next Thursday?We are all working towards
0:15:24 > 0:15:27reaching an agreement at the European Council next Thursday,
0:15:27 > 0:15:30there is different people saying different things by what we have to
0:15:30 > 0:15:34do by when. There is a desire to reach a resolution and I am sure
0:15:34 > 0:15:40people will be flexible.
0:15:40 > 0:15:43Joining me now is the Conservative MP Vicky Ford who was one of the 19
0:15:43 > 0:15:45Tories to sign that letter to the Prime Minister
0:15:45 > 0:15:50Welcome to The Daily Politics. The letter points to the people talking
0:15:50 > 0:15:54up a no-deal scenario. Who are they? So the Prime Minister has made it
0:15:54 > 0:15:58very clear that she wants to deliver this deep partnership with Europe
0:15:58 > 0:16:02and we are offering her our full support. Others who are saying we
0:16:02 > 0:16:07should walk away from the negotiating table now, you know,
0:16:07 > 0:16:11over a year before the deadline for Brexit, I believe are being
0:16:11 > 0:16:16irresponsible because that deep partnership with the Prime Minister
0:16:16 > 0:16:27want is so important for British businesses. We need to make sure
0:16:27 > 0:16:35that we to keep talking.So you are talking about your Conservative
0:16:35 > 0:16:38colleagues, those sort of people who, in your mind are putting undue
0:16:38 > 0:16:48pressure on Theresa May?I will not Names or start new fights.You are
0:16:48 > 0:16:51talking about your Conservative colleagues?Trying to put more red
0:16:51 > 0:16:55lines on to the Prime Minister at this stage is, in my view, not a
0:16:55 > 0:17:00responsible thing to do. She needs to decide what the red lines are.
0:17:00 > 0:17:04She needs to to decide what the negotiating areas are. And it is
0:17:04 > 0:17:12really important that we do achieve an amicable outcome, a deep
0:17:12 > 0:17:15partnership for the long term for so many areas of our economy and of our
0:17:15 > 0:17:18daily lives.Are you being irresponsible? And your colleagues
0:17:18 > 0:17:22who signed this letter by putting pressure on Theresa May to say, you
0:17:22 > 0:17:25mustn't walk away under any circumstances?No. The Prime
0:17:25 > 0:17:29Minister has made it very clear that she wishes to deliver that deep
0:17:29 > 0:17:33partnership thapd is what question are supporting her to do. The
0:17:33 > 0:17:37deadline is at the end of the Brexit negotiations. It would be very good
0:17:37 > 0:17:43if we can move on to the next round this month. I really hope we do. I
0:17:43 > 0:17:57hope we do for the EU citizens here. It is very comply katd. There are 27
0:17:57 > 0:18:02other countries involved and these negotiations will take time.Do you
0:18:02 > 0:18:07think the EU is behaving unfairly. They are putting Britain and Ireland
0:18:07 > 0:18:10under enormous pressure here when this could all be solved once the
0:18:10 > 0:18:14discussions move on to trade?I think it is really complicated
0:18:14 > 0:18:19because the EU is obviously not just one organisation. They are trying to
0:18:19 > 0:18:23work with 27 different countries. Ireland is the country that is most
0:18:23 > 0:18:29affected by Brexit. But it is in Ireland's interest that we do find a
0:18:29 > 0:18:33long-term agreement.What is the is the solution in your mind on the
0:18:33 > 0:18:40Irish border?I think to solve the Irish border issue we need some form
0:18:40 > 0:18:44of regulatory alignment. You cannot have goods banned on one side of the
0:18:44 > 0:18:48border but not on the other side of the border and then still have an
0:18:48 > 0:18:53open border. So we need need some form of regulatory co-operation.
0:18:53 > 0:18:58That will need to apply to all of the UK because we cannot then have a
0:18:58 > 0:19:03border in the Irish Sea. Keeping the UK together is really important. I
0:19:03 > 0:19:11hope Ireland will say, we are, keeping the border open, we hear you
0:19:11 > 0:19:15on keeping technical solutions to delivering that. We want to work
0:19:15 > 0:19:19with you to make sure we get the long-term solution. Therefore we can
0:19:19 > 0:19:27move on to talk about the long-term partnership as well.That is clear.
0:19:27 > 0:19:32You think that if you keep the UK in its entirety in terms of regulation
0:19:32 > 0:19:36then a solution can be found but for people who are on, what you might
0:19:36 > 0:19:41call the hard Brexit side of the party, that means staying in some
0:19:41 > 0:19:45sort of regulatory framework of the EU and we would then be rule takers
0:19:45 > 0:19:50- do you accept that?I think they may be making arguments on
0:19:50 > 0:19:55principal, when in practise, this is not a real argument. Most of the
0:19:55 > 0:19:58issues on agricultural products which go backwards and forwards
0:19:58 > 0:20:02across the border. The UK Government has made it very clear that we do
0:20:02 > 0:20:07not wish to drop the standards, the animal welfare standards, in
0:20:07 > 0:20:11particular, and therefore we don't intend to undercut the Irish farmers
0:20:11 > 0:20:15on the other side of the border. I think the more we can say we want to
0:20:15 > 0:20:20continue to work to deliver the highest possible regulatory
0:20:20 > 0:20:23standards, as Michael Gove himself has said that he wants to deliver,
0:20:23 > 0:20:27then actually this becomes a less sensitive argument.Right, how do
0:20:27 > 0:20:33you think the DUP is behaving here? Do you think the DUP tail is wagging
0:20:33 > 0:20:39the Government dog?No. I think it's absolute vital that we keep the
0:20:39 > 0:20:43United Kingdom united. That was the first promise that the Prime
0:20:43 > 0:20:46Minister made outside the steps of Downing Street was, I want to keep
0:20:46 > 0:20:50the union together and it is very clear if there had been a special
0:20:50 > 0:20:54deal for Northern Ireland then there would have been Something Special
0:20:54 > 0:20:59for Scotland. The Scotts agreed to ask for that immediately. We cannot
0:20:59 > 0:21:01have one part of Britain being sliced off from another part of
0:21:01 > 0:21:12Britain. We have to stay together. Thank you. Joining us for this is
0:21:12 > 0:21:17Peter Bone.
0:21:17 > 0:21:24Welcome back to The Daily Politics. You and your colleagues have been
0:21:24 > 0:21:28called highly irresponsible by Vicky Ford and others.1 p 7 days to go.
0:21:28 > 0:21:32Another day nearer coming out of this dreadful European Union super
0:21:32 > 0:21:37state, so that is good news. Vicky can write letters if she wants.Are
0:21:37 > 0:21:41you being highly responsible?I am 100% behind the Prime Minister. I
0:21:41 > 0:21:44understand the Prime Minister is thinking about taking me to Brussels
0:21:44 > 0:21:48to sort the problem out.You are putting more red lines in her way,
0:21:48 > 0:21:52making it harder to move on to the next phase?You may say that but I
0:21:52 > 0:21:56don't recognise that. Yesterday the Prime Minister agreed that we would
0:21:56 > 0:22:00end free movement when we came out of the EU. We would stop sending
0:22:00 > 0:22:05billions to the European Union. We will make our own laws in our own
0:22:05 > 0:22:09country, judged by British judges. If she can deliver that, everyone
0:22:09 > 0:22:12will be happy.If there is not progress and Britain does not move
0:22:12 > 0:22:17on to the next phase, should Theresa May walk away?That is the correct
0:22:17 > 0:22:20question, because if progress cannot be made, the responsible situation
0:22:20 > 0:22:25is to say, right, we obviously can't do a deal. We have to give our
0:22:25 > 0:22:29industry enough time to prepare. What is the answer?Yes. Walk away.
0:22:29 > 0:22:35Tell the industry we will come out on 29th March, 2019 on WTO rules and
0:22:35 > 0:22:39therefore you can prepare for that. And we won't, by the way, pay
0:22:39 > 0:22:43billions of pounds to the European Union. So within a few days I think
0:22:43 > 0:22:48the European Union would rush back to talk to us.Soham Hammond is
0:22:48 > 0:22:53wrong to say we -- so Phillip Hammond is wrong to say that?I
0:22:53 > 0:22:55think he got slapped down by the Prime Minister on that. It is not
0:22:55 > 0:23:00Government policy.In terms of the no deal, do you have a deadline next
0:23:00 > 0:23:05week if there is no movement, should the Prime Minister walk away then?
0:23:05 > 0:23:08The question of a deadline is interesting. I understand if
0:23:08 > 0:23:11European Union is saying within the next 48 hours if this point is not
0:23:11 > 0:23:15decided, maybe it will be decided and we'll not have to worry about
0:23:15 > 0:23:21that. The crunch time is spring next year when we have to agree to the
0:23:21 > 0:23:25principals of the free trade deal. If we get to that stage and have not
0:23:25 > 0:23:28made progress that is the point you must give industry a year to
0:23:28 > 0:23:35prepare. We cannot, as Vicky said wait until 29th March, 2019, and
0:23:35 > 0:23:39find it all chances. Cha -- all collapses. It is a decision to be
0:23:39 > 0:23:42made at a particular time. The latest time you can make that
0:23:42 > 0:23:47decision is the spring time of next year.Vicky Ford said it will be a
0:23:47 > 0:23:53disaster. Threatening a no deal is a disaster. Is she wrong?Yes, she is
0:23:53 > 0:23:56wrong on that. Clearly, the Prime Minister has said a no deal is a
0:23:56 > 0:24:01possibility. Is it better to do a deal, a free trade deal? Of course.
0:24:01 > 0:24:05If we weren't talking about Northern Ireland now, but we were talking
0:24:05 > 0:24:09about the free trade agreement, if we had a free trade agreement the
0:24:09 > 0:24:13border with Northern Ireland would disappear.Was it irresponsible of
0:24:13 > 0:24:17the Government not to have briefed the DUP with the wording of the
0:24:17 > 0:24:20draft document to prevent them from walking away?I don't think that is
0:24:20 > 0:24:25what happened. I think there was a draft document provided by, drawn up
0:24:25 > 0:24:30by the EU which was leaked. I think in the Irish media. I don't think at
0:24:30 > 0:24:33any time had the Prime Minister agreed to that. At any time had
0:24:33 > 0:24:38there been any discussions on the text. So...Should there have been?
0:24:38 > 0:24:41If the Prime Minister wasn't going to agree to it in the first place,
0:24:41 > 0:24:46why discuss it?In terms of the words regulatory and alignment, what
0:24:46 > 0:24:51do you think the solution is to the Northern Ireland and Irish border?A
0:24:51 > 0:24:56free trade area. If we have a free trade area, the problem disappears.
0:24:56 > 0:25:01What about the Irish Government who want to ensure they e they are going
0:25:01 > 0:25:04to have the same customs and regulations that exist now.If you
0:25:04 > 0:25:09talk about a no deal situation, what would happen in Northern Ireland, we
0:25:09 > 0:25:17could decide. We don't have to put any duty on Gods -- on goods coming
0:25:17 > 0:25:20over from the Irish border. I don't think it is their position.You
0:25:20 > 0:25:29would be happy to see a hard border? I think I said the opposite. The
0:25:29 > 0:25:33only people who seem to talk about a hard bored ser the European Union.
0:25:33 > 0:25:36Ireland said they don't want to see anything that could look like any
0:25:36 > 0:25:43checks being made. They want to keep it, the only way to do that is to
0:25:43 > 0:25:48have the same customs and regulations.It is right you can
0:25:48 > 0:25:52have a frictionless border. If we are not imposing any duties or
0:25:52 > 0:25:55tariffs there's no need to check anything. It is a lot of argument
0:25:55 > 0:25:58about nothing. There'll not be a hard border in Northern Ireland,
0:25:58 > 0:26:02whichever way you go, whether there is agreement or there isn't. Whilst
0:26:02 > 0:26:06the European Union are making this a big issue I don't think in reality
0:26:06 > 0:26:12it is.What about the Brexit impact assessment? Are you disappointed
0:26:12 > 0:26:17David Davis has not provided those? There aren't any. It would be absurd
0:26:17 > 0:26:22to think the Government was doing Brexit impact assessments across the
0:26:22 > 0:26:26country on how many types of Brexit could you get? The basic thing is
0:26:26 > 0:26:29the Government knows what it wants to do, it wants a free trade deal
0:26:29 > 0:26:34with the European Union. If you call them red lines, the Prime Minister
0:26:34 > 0:26:39answered my question to yesterday. They were called red lines.They
0:26:39 > 0:26:42were called pink, actually.We can argue about the colour. Do you think
0:26:42 > 0:26:48the deadline will be met and there will be movement on phase two?I
0:26:48 > 0:26:52don't think have a crystal ball. What is vital in this is we make
0:26:52 > 0:26:58sure that high standards are enshrined. That rights for ordinary
0:26:58 > 0:27:02people and their families are enshrined.How?There is legislation
0:27:02 > 0:27:07going through Parliament at the moment, which is about bringing the
0:27:07 > 0:27:11EU withdrawal bill. What is critical in that bill is that things that
0:27:11 > 0:27:15people and communities here enjoy now because of their membership of
0:27:15 > 0:27:20the EU, whether they wanted to leave or remain, that those protections
0:27:20 > 0:27:24are enshrined in law.The Government said they will be.We will see what
0:27:24 > 0:27:29happens next week on that. At the moment we don't have agreement that
0:27:29 > 0:27:34the charter of rights will be enshrined in our statute. Leave the
0:27:34 > 0:27:38UK or remain in it - that is by the by. We need high standards and right
0:27:38 > 0:27:43protections here. We can do that. It has to be in black and white so it
0:27:43 > 0:27:48can be...Should the charter be there in black and white?Hours of
0:27:48 > 0:27:53lawyers argue about this. On one hand they said it has to be in the
0:27:53 > 0:27:59bill... I agree we must have the highest of standards. When we are an
0:27:59 > 0:28:03independent nation we can strengthen and increase those standards.What
0:28:03 > 0:28:08guarantees will be given. They say sovereignty should have been given
0:28:08 > 0:28:11to them as parliamentarians to see which laws will be included and
0:28:11 > 0:28:17which aren't.What we are saying is all the laws, all the EU laws are
0:28:17 > 0:28:21going to be become effectively British laws on the day we come out
0:28:21 > 0:28:24so, there'll be no no, the day before and day after we will have
0:28:24 > 0:28:30the same standards.There is one exception, in this great copy and
0:28:30 > 0:28:35paste job done, one thing has been carved out, that is the European
0:28:35 > 0:28:38charter of human rights. At the moment there is an argument about
0:28:38 > 0:28:43why that one piece of law has not been included. Whether it is about
0:28:43 > 0:28:47privacy, about having access to fair insurance premiums or access to a
0:28:47 > 0:28:52pension rights if you are a gay couple - all these things derived
0:28:52 > 0:28:54from European rights they should be brought home. At the moment the
0:28:54 > 0:29:00Government has not committed to putting those rights in this bill.I
0:29:00 > 0:29:03have heard eminent lawyers tell us this is what this bill does and the
0:29:03 > 0:29:07Parliament should discuss this. At the moment I am, the Government has
0:29:07 > 0:29:11persuaded me they are right. If I am persuaded the other way I will vote
0:29:11 > 0:29:15for any amendment. I think that the Government, I think all of
0:29:15 > 0:29:18Parliament is agreed, we want to bring in the same standards of
0:29:18 > 0:29:22protection that we have now afterwards. It is just the mechanism
0:29:22 > 0:29:23for doing it.
0:29:25 > 0:29:27The Conservative-led Government introduced a requirement back
0:29:27 > 0:29:30in 2010 for schools to use phonics to teach children to read.
0:29:30 > 0:29:32Children learn individual sounds and then blend
0:29:32 > 0:29:33those sounds together.
0:29:33 > 0:29:35Yesterday, at Prime Minister's Questions, Theresa May hailed
0:29:35 > 0:29:38the reform as the driver for dramatically increased reading
0:29:38 > 0:29:38standards in England.
0:29:38 > 0:29:43Let's have a listen.
0:29:43 > 0:29:45Yesterday we learned how the UK's revolution
0:29:45 > 0:29:46in phonics has dramatically improved school standards.
0:29:46 > 0:29:49And I would like to pay particular tribute to my right honourable
0:29:49 > 0:29:51friend, the Minister for Schools Standards who has worked
0:29:51 > 0:30:02tirelessly to this end, through his time here in this House,
0:30:03 > 0:30:06but also pay tribute to the hard work of teachers up
0:30:06 > 0:30:10and down the country.
0:30:10 > 0:30:14We have - and just for the figures, in 2012, 58% of six-year-olds
0:30:14 > 0:30:15passed reading checks.
0:30:15 > 0:30:16This year that has risen to 81%.
0:30:16 > 0:30:23We are indeed building a Britain fit for the future.
0:30:23 > 0:30:26I'm joined now by Mark Lehain, a former head teacher and now
0:30:26 > 0:30:29director of Parents and Teachers for Excellence and Sandra McNally
0:30:29 > 0:30:30from the LSE's Centre for Economic Performance.
0:30:30 > 0:30:36Welcome to both of you. So let us talk about phonics. There were
0:30:36 > 0:30:40147,000 more fluent reading six-year-olds than in 2011, is that
0:30:40 > 0:30:48something to celebrate?Absolutely. Mine it is great to see progress in
0:30:48 > 0:30:50the polls reflecting improve.s in standards. There is still some way
0:30:50 > 0:30:55to go, and there is a lot of children you leave school without
0:30:55 > 0:30:59being at the expected standard. In adult population, a very serious
0:30:59 > 0:31:04issue with literacy.Do you accept that is down to phonics?I would
0:31:04 > 0:31:10they the Government reforms introduced in 2006 actually did have
0:31:10 > 0:31:16something to contribute to the improvement we are seeing, our
0:31:16 > 0:31:26research showed that it had, phone nicks introduced in schools. Which
0:31:26 > 0:31:31found an immediate impact at age fivement it reduced at seven. By 11
0:31:31 > 0:31:35people had caught up. So people do learn to read eventually so we
0:31:35 > 0:31:40shouldn't get too excited that everything is down to phonics.So is
0:31:40 > 0:31:43it really this great sort of revolutionary technique in teaching
0:31:43 > 0:31:49children to read?There is a number of things I would say. First the big
0:31:49 > 0:31:54change in 2010 because they made the move from 2006 on wards, it would be
0:31:54 > 0:32:0010 was Nick Gibbon put a rocket booster on the approach to phonics.
0:32:00 > 0:32:03Which seems to be by far and away the best approach to teaching
0:32:03 > 0:32:08children and I have four daughters of my own, my oldest daughter was in
0:32:08 > 0:32:13the first cohort, so we is been able to see the impact on our own family
0:32:13 > 0:32:17overnight-time.Is that the evidence? How do you now it is down
0:32:17 > 0:32:22to phonics, if standard have improved generally and teaching has
0:32:22 > 0:32:26improved in many school, isn't that more important than the system of
0:32:26 > 0:32:29teaching people phonics because everyone has learned to read in the
0:32:29 > 0:32:35past.I don't think any is saying it is the focus on phonics itself but
0:32:35 > 0:32:38it has encouraged more teachers to put an emphasis on those things when
0:32:38 > 0:32:48they get kids in the early years. Although most children catch up by
0:32:48 > 0:32:5411, I know children may turn up they have missed out on being fluent
0:32:54 > 0:32:57readers because they were late to get there. When you think of the
0:32:57 > 0:33:02books they could have been reading they have missed out on and their
0:33:02 > 0:33:05knowledge base and comprehension generallyHave you got evidence to
0:33:05 > 0:33:09show that phonics has made a positive impact on children's
0:33:09 > 0:33:16reading?I mean there is different types of phonics and lots, there is
0:33:16 > 0:33:20some good evidence to suggest it has an impact on reading and on later
0:33:20 > 0:33:25outcomes. What isn't clear is what kind of phonics is better than
0:33:25 > 0:33:28other, I know there is lots of debate in education research on
0:33:28 > 0:33:33this, it is not as clear-cut and you wouldn't want to be prioritising
0:33:33 > 0:33:39phonics at the expense of lots of other things.Are you going for this
0:33:39 > 0:33:44pure approach? The school that I have been involved in, there was an
0:33:44 > 0:33:48issue about spelling. The fact that phonics made it difficult for some
0:33:48 > 0:33:52children later on to be able to spell correctly because they learned
0:33:52 > 0:34:03it only by sound.That is where schools that have adopted systems
0:34:03 > 0:34:08have improved. I think the real exciting thing that has come out
0:34:08 > 0:34:12this week in the data about upon things is that the gains we have
0:34:12 > 0:34:17seen is because boys have seen their reading ability gone up by a lot,
0:34:17 > 0:34:22but also lower attaining children, that didn't do so well the past are
0:34:22 > 0:34:26doing better, so more vulnerable children are doing better and the
0:34:26 > 0:34:31knock on impact is going to be massive.Do we teach children to
0:34:31 > 0:34:34read too early? Are we pushing children to read at a stage when
0:34:34 > 0:34:41they are not ready and phonics is a way doffing it more quickie.Other
0:34:41 > 0:34:46countries vary in when they lead people into formal education, if you
0:34:46 > 0:34:50look at some of the Scandinavian countries they don't do formal
0:34:50 > 0:34:54schooling until later. It is not clear it has to be done at the
0:34:54 > 0:34:58particular age, that we do it here, but I, I don't have a strong view
0:34:58 > 0:35:07about that really.Mark, the former Children's Laureate has criticised
0:35:07 > 0:35:12for teaching children to read allowed successfully but not with
0:35:12 > 0:35:23enjoyment.I think he is wrong. Mark Rosen has that this view for years,
0:35:23 > 0:35:26him and some left-wing activist said it is going to push things back. It
0:35:26 > 0:35:31isn't, but I know myself as a teacher who has been on a journey in
0:35:31 > 0:35:34terms of understanding what works wand who done. It can take a long
0:35:34 > 0:35:40time for people to change view, I hope people will hopefully see the
0:35:40 > 0:35:48light. He has done amazing thing, fundamentally this is a success
0:35:48 > 0:35:51story, an example of a series of Governments having the nerve to push
0:35:51 > 0:35:55through changes and of the teaching profession, working really hard to
0:35:55 > 0:35:57implement it effectively.Thank you both.
0:35:57 > 0:35:58Thank you both.
0:35:58 > 0:36:00The Electoral Commission has announced this morning
0:36:00 > 0:36:02that it is launching an investigation in to Momentum -
0:36:02 > 0:36:04the group set up to support Jeremy Corbyn's leadership
0:36:04 > 0:36:05of the Labour Party.
0:36:05 > 0:36:07The Commission is looking into whether Momentum broke
0:36:07 > 0:36:09election spending rules in the General Election.
0:36:09 > 0:36:16Let's get the latest from Ellie Price who joins me now.
0:36:16 > 0:36:21What have they done?This is about basically whether momentum have done
0:36:21 > 0:36:28their accounting properly. To use a technical jargon they are registered
0:36:28 > 0:36:32non-party campaigner, but they took part in a lot of the campaigning in
0:36:32 > 0:36:40the recent general election, now their accounts show that they spent
0:36:40 > 0:36:44£38,000 across all four parts of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland,
0:36:44 > 0:36:51the spending limit on such groups like Momentum is 39,000. So they
0:36:51 > 0:36:55came in short of that. The electorate commission say because
0:36:55 > 0:37:00they are so high profile any question of their compliance could
0:37:00 > 0:37:03risk causing harm to voters' confidence. They say they want to
0:37:03 > 0:37:08look, whether they have done their accounting properly and whether they
0:37:08 > 0:37:16put in things like receipts for things that are more than £200.
0:37:16 > 0:37:18With me now is Aaron Bastani, founder of Novara Media
0:37:18 > 0:37:23and a Momentum supporter.
0:37:23 > 0:37:29Your group has admitted errors?What group? Momentum?Sorry momentum.
0:37:29 > 0:37:34That is probably likely. In terms of how large the operation is, there
0:37:34 > 0:37:38will be small administrative error, my personal experience of momentum,
0:37:38 > 0:37:44I wasn't relaying money to anybody in the election, was they took
0:37:44 > 0:37:48probity and the whole regulatory framework round the lobbying act
0:37:48 > 0:37:53seriously. ButBut they said they have committed error, so they
0:37:53 > 0:37:58haven't kept the standards that are necessary.I hope that is treated
0:37:58 > 0:38:01appropriately, I hope there is an adequate response and it is not done
0:38:01 > 0:38:07in future. The lobbying act which was only past in 2014, I personally
0:38:07 > 0:38:12think isn't really fit for purpose. Why?It is meant to basically
0:38:12 > 0:38:16constrain spending by any organisation in a 12 month period
0:38:16 > 0:38:21prior to an election, when you have a snaplike sthaun goes out of the
0:38:21 > 0:38:27window.You would say that because Momentum has been caught making
0:38:27 > 0:38:33error, do you think is important to have rules on spendingFiscal
0:38:33 > 0:38:37probity is key to democracy.You have no problem with the Electoral
0:38:37 > 0:38:47Commission.No, it is an inherently central crucial part.Owen Jones who
0:38:47 > 0:38:51is also a member of Momentum said the electorate commission who let
0:38:51 > 0:38:57the for es are off hook because they can't believe Momentum did so well
0:38:57 > 0:39:02on a show string budget. That sounds like sour grapes to me.What I would
0:39:02 > 0:39:07say is that the reception of it in some quarters will be political.
0:39:07 > 0:39:11There is an instinctive shock, think, for many people, even on the
0:39:11 > 0:39:17left as well about just how much Momentum did with so few resources.
0:39:17 > 0:39:22You are sayingst same thing.I haven't seen the case.You have just
0:39:22 > 0:39:26said yourself that people can't believe that people did so well. Are
0:39:26 > 0:39:29you saying the Electoral Commission as a result of that is pickingup on
0:39:29 > 0:39:35add my opinion strative errors.I think it is plausible. They wouldn't
0:39:35 > 0:39:39be doing their job if they didn't. It is a shock they kid so much with
0:39:39 > 0:39:44so little. Little. That was powered by people not vested interests and
0:39:44 > 0:39:48my personal view is the Electoral Commission will find nothing. ? Do
0:39:48 > 0:39:53you any it is part of an establish. That can't believe how well they di?
0:39:53 > 0:39:57It is more complex. I would like to see the gagging act that has been
0:39:57 > 0:40:02called completely changed under a Labour Government.
0:40:02 > 0:40:06It is a central part of the function of democracy, I think the political
0:40:06 > 0:40:10representative ception is more important than anything the
0:40:10 > 0:40:16Electoral Commission is doing.You accept it causes harm to voter
0:40:16 > 0:40:21coughed?Most won't know about it or care less about it. That might be a
0:40:21 > 0:40:26good or bad thing. We know in matters surrounding spending the
0:40:26 > 0:40:29public doesn't seem to take particular interest, which is a bad
0:40:29 > 0:40:35thing if you look at what happened between the Ukip and Tories. Imseems
0:40:35 > 0:40:39striking that the Tories bought three by-elections.You have your
0:40:39 > 0:40:43attention on that?I have seen the specifics of that case. It seems
0:40:43 > 0:40:47striking. I was surprised harsher action wasn't taken
0:40:47 > 0:40:49I was surprised harsher action wasn't taken
0:40:49 > 0:40:51The new Defence Secretary, Gavin Williamson, has said that
0:40:51 > 0:40:54British nationals who join so-called Islamic State should not be
0:40:54 > 0:40:57allowed to return to the UK and that we should do all we can
0:40:57 > 0:40:58to "eliminate" the threat they pose.
0:40:58 > 0:41:01Despite that some jihadis have returned to the UK and the issue
0:41:01 > 0:41:04of how we treat them is the subject of fierce debate.
0:41:04 > 0:41:07The Labour MP John Woodcock has suggested that the amount of time
0:41:07 > 0:41:09allowed for pre-charge detention be extended for those who've fought
0:41:09 > 0:41:19abroad to allow security services to build a case against them.
0:41:21 > 0:41:28The first terror lawses were introduced between 1974, and 1989.
0:41:28 > 0:41:32Aimed attacking Northern Irish related terrorism. Individuals could
0:41:32 > 0:41:36be arrest without a warrant on reasonable suspicion they were
0:41:36 > 0:41:41involved in act of terrorism with an initial period of 48-hours extended
0:41:41 > 0:41:45to five day, that legislation was updated in 2000. Among other
0:41:45 > 0:41:49measures police were given the power to detain people arrested for
0:41:49 > 0:41:54terrorism offences, for seven days without charge. Then, in the wake of
0:41:54 > 0:41:58the 9/11 attack, the anti-terrorism Crime and Security Act of 2001 was
0:41:58 > 0:42:02introduced. It was seen as way of internationalising the war on
0:42:02 > 0:42:06terror. And allow inner the Home Secretary to indefinitely detain
0:42:06 > 0:42:11without charge or trial foreign nationals who were suspected of
0:42:11 > 0:42:16terrorism, though that was later ruled unlawfulful
0:42:16 > 0:42:20On the seventh July 2005, for suicide bombers attacked Central
0:42:20 > 0:42:26London. Killing 52 people and injuring hundreds more. It was the
0:42:26 > 0:42:30worst single tourist axxxx terrorist atrocity on British soil. The
0:42:30 > 0:42:34Government proposed plans for 90 days detention without charge of
0:42:34 > 0:42:43terror suspects. It was Tony Blair's first commons
0:42:43 > 0:42:49defeat. Instead, the detention time was limiteded to 28 days.
0:42:49 > 0:42:54New Labour had another go in 2000, proposing to put the limit up to 42
0:42:54 > 0:43:00days. The then Shadow Home Secretary David Davis resigned his seat to
0:43:00 > 0:43:02fight a by-election on the principles of British liberty, but
0:43:02 > 0:43:08the plans were thrown out by the Lords. In 2012, the coalition
0:43:08 > 0:43:12Government and the then Home Secretary changed the detention
0:43:12 > 0:43:17limit back down to 14 day as the protection of freedoms act. During
0:43:17 > 0:43:23the election campaign and following the Manchester and London Bridge
0:43:23 > 0:43:31attacks she hinted that could change When we have enough evidence to know
0:43:31 > 0:43:35they are a threat, but not enough evidence to prosecute them in full
0:43:35 > 0:43:40in court. And if... If our human rights laws
0:43:40 > 0:43:48stop us from doing it we will change the law so we can do it.
0:43:48 > 0:43:52Jan, you have add indicateded an increase to the current 28 day
0:43:52 > 0:43:56maximum. Sorry 14 days with precharge detention, what should the
0:43:56 > 0:44:03limit be?Well, I don't know, that is something I think that the
0:44:03 > 0:44:06Government should take immediate detailed advise from the police and
0:44:06 > 0:44:11security services about the difficult diand how long it will
0:44:11 > 0:44:18take to amass the evidence, against these Brits who have gone over the
0:44:18 > 0:44:23fight for Daesh, are already returning to British shores, despite
0:44:23 > 0:44:28what the Defence Secretary may say in the press, and it will take some
0:44:28 > 0:44:33time to amass that case.So you could be supportive of a move beyond
0:44:33 > 0:44:40even 28 days.Yes, of course I think we need to be, we need to bring in
0:44:40 > 0:44:46legislation, that will actually give the authorities, the time to build
0:44:46 > 0:44:51that case, because in the overwhelming majority of cases
0:44:51 > 0:44:58British men and women who go over to, into that region, are not doing
0:44:58 > 0:45:03so for appropriate reasons, there is overwhelming suspicion they have
0:45:03 > 0:45:07fought against British force, against the British state, but, of
0:45:07 > 0:45:10course our due process means we need time to amass that case and be able
0:45:10 > 0:45:15to put it in front of a judge.
0:45:15 > 0:45:19Isn't it necessary when we face hundreds coming back who have fought
0:45:19 > 0:45:23in Syria?No. It is not necessary. I think it would be a really dangerous
0:45:23 > 0:45:28move. Just to give you a sense of the context, the UK currently can
0:45:28 > 0:45:33detain people without charge for 14 days. That puts us out of step with
0:45:33 > 0:45:37every other comparable democracy. So, in France, even under the state
0:45:37 > 0:45:40of emergency you can only detain people for six days. In US, two
0:45:40 > 0:45:51days. In Russia, only four days T the Security Services and the police
0:45:51 > 0:45:54are not suggesting they need more time. There is just no evidence at
0:45:54 > 0:45:59all to say that we need more time. What is fundamental here is we are
0:45:59 > 0:46:03playing fast and lose with the values that this democracy is built
0:46:03 > 0:46:07on. This is due process. This is about saying people will be tried on
0:46:07 > 0:46:10evidence before independent judges. If you take people out of their
0:46:10 > 0:46:15communities and you detain them for days on end, on the say so of the
0:46:15 > 0:46:18police or the Security Services, you will deepen the divisions that this
0:46:18 > 0:46:23society faces.Where is your evidence? There doesn't seem to be
0:46:23 > 0:46:28anything to back up by the police that they want more time?We are in
0:46:28 > 0:46:34a new situation. We have Daesh who are collapsing in Syria, so many
0:46:34 > 0:46:39hundreds of Brits who have gone over are now either arriving back or will
0:46:39 > 0:46:42in the coming months potential I will be arriving back on these
0:46:42 > 0:46:46shores. And that is what makes the situation different to where we are
0:46:46 > 0:46:52in the past.Are there any examples of the police who have an IS-related
0:46:52 > 0:46:55suspect that they are or want to charge, that they have actually
0:46:55 > 0:46:59asked for longer than 14 days?I want to hear from the Home Secretary
0:46:59 > 0:47:03whether that is a case. I raised it with her in Parliament. During her
0:47:03 > 0:47:06statement this week she said this was worth considering and she would
0:47:06 > 0:47:11come back to me and to the House on this matter.You accept at the
0:47:11 > 0:47:16moment there isn't any evidence yet. I wouldn't expect there to be as
0:47:16 > 0:47:21such because we are in this in u situation where Brits who have been,
0:47:21 > 0:47:26often that I would have been held, they would have gone over under this
0:47:26 > 0:47:32brainwashed idea that they could go and fight for the caliphate, many
0:47:32 > 0:47:37who went there, found the situation was horrendous, but were prevented
0:47:37 > 0:47:43on the certainty of death at the hands of Daesh from returning. Now
0:47:43 > 0:47:47as Daesh collapses they are getting the opportunity to flee. This
0:47:47 > 0:47:51problem of people arriving back into the UK, potentially being very
0:47:51 > 0:47:54dangerous is a new situation.Do you accept it is a different threat? It
0:47:54 > 0:47:58is a new threat and the authorities are struggling to know how to deal
0:47:58 > 0:48:01with it? We've had a minister, the Defence Secretary, saying they
0:48:01 > 0:48:05shouldn't come back at all, British-born fighters who go out
0:48:05 > 0:48:10there. They should be killed out in the field - what do you say to that?
0:48:10 > 0:48:14I think that is an extraordinary position for a western democracy to
0:48:14 > 0:48:19take. I accept of course there is a threat. I am a Londoner. I get on
0:48:19 > 0:48:23the tube every morning. I want good security for me and my family and
0:48:23 > 0:48:26everyone else in this country. We don't have any evidence that the
0:48:26 > 0:48:30police and the Security Services need these extra powers.Not yet.If
0:48:30 > 0:48:35there was, would you consider?I don't think the situation now has
0:48:35 > 0:48:40radically changed. We talked about Northern Ireland earlier. A policy
0:48:40 > 0:48:45of internment is widely recognised now to have deepened it by police
0:48:45 > 0:48:49officers, by civil servants and politicians. Coming on to Gavin
0:48:49 > 0:48:53Williamson's point, the idea that this country would advocate for
0:48:53 > 0:48:56arbitrary killings abroad. We are a country that disallows the death
0:48:56 > 0:49:00penalty. We are a country that is proud to say that we try people
0:49:00 > 0:49:06before the law.If they have fought against their country, if they are
0:49:06 > 0:49:09as people would see them traitors and they are coming back with that
0:49:09 > 0:49:17hateful ideology, what is arbitrary about it?So what you need to do, if
0:49:17 > 0:49:22they are fighters and fighting, you bring them back, you mount a case
0:49:22 > 0:49:25against them and you try them and lock them up for a long time.We are
0:49:25 > 0:49:29told it is difficult to get that evidence from the field.If what we
0:49:29 > 0:49:34are saying is these people should be taken out, killed in drone strikes
0:49:34 > 0:49:37there must be, surely, more evidence to justify killing than you would
0:49:37 > 0:49:41ever need to justify just a charge and a prosecution.What about the
0:49:41 > 0:49:45problem, if the evidence is presented that justified in your
0:49:45 > 0:49:51mind an increase to that 14-day detention period, let's say 28 days
0:49:51 > 0:49:55or beyond - what would that do to community relations? What would it
0:49:55 > 0:49:58do holding people while you mount a case only to find that the evidence
0:49:58 > 0:50:07is not there?I think the overwhelming majority are horrified
0:50:07 > 0:50:13that some of their young people have gone over to fight an ideology which
0:50:13 > 0:50:18they, in every bit of every other faith and none believe is abhorrent
0:50:18 > 0:50:23to Islam and to British values.Look at internment - it didn't help the
0:50:23 > 0:50:29situation, did it?I think parallels to Northern Ireland only go so far
0:50:29 > 0:50:35on this. And actually I would hope that communities right across
0:50:35 > 0:50:42Britain will want to see the best prospect of the British justice
0:50:42 > 0:50:45system being enacted against these people.If powerful evidence is
0:50:45 > 0:50:48brought from the Security Services and the police to say we need more
0:50:48 > 0:50:53time, will you support it?No. At some point we have to stand up for
0:50:53 > 0:50:57our values. There may be a tradeoff. This would not be British justice.
0:50:57 > 0:51:03If you detain people for days and days of on end that is arbitrary
0:51:03 > 0:51:08detention on behalf of the state. That is a slippery slope. We would
0:51:08 > 0:51:12have to focus on refoe using the police so they could do those
0:51:12 > 0:51:20investigations more thoroughly in a time period which now works.And the
0:51:20 > 0:51:25trade-off would be what? Increased security risk to this country?The
0:51:25 > 0:51:30tradeoff is we stand by our freedom. We stand by the values that
0:51:30 > 0:51:33terrorists seek to destroy. At the moment there is no suggestion we
0:51:33 > 0:51:40need these arbitrary powers. We would be very wrong to cane into
0:51:40 > 0:51:44those that our adversaries do.When will you have a timescale?I will
0:51:44 > 0:51:51press the Home Secretary about that this week and about, there is some
0:51:51 > 0:51:57element of agreement. Of course I believe it is appropriate that
0:51:57 > 0:52:00British combatants on the field of battle are appropriate target. But
0:52:00 > 0:52:04the idea they would surrender, become prisoners of war and then we
0:52:04 > 0:52:11would execute them completely disredwarding the again the very --
0:52:11 > 0:52:14disregarding the Geneva Convention puts our own troops at risk.
0:52:16 > 0:52:19Time Magazine has awarded its Person of the Year award not to a single
0:52:19 > 0:52:23person but to a group of people it has named the "Silence Breakers" -
0:52:23 > 0:52:25the women and men who came forward to talk about sexual
0:52:25 > 0:52:27abuse and harassment.
0:52:27 > 0:52:34The movement is most closely associated with the #MeToo hashtag
0:52:34 > 0:52:42It got people to speak about their own abuses.
0:52:42 > 0:52:45a host of other women and men including journalist Jane Merrick
0:52:45 > 0:52:47who spoke out about how Defence Secretary Michael Fallon had
0:52:47 > 0:52:50"lunged" at her in 2003, leading to his resignation
0:52:50 > 0:52:53from the Cabinet in November and Labour activist and campaigner
0:52:53 > 0:52:57Bex Bailey who revealed earlier this year that she was raped at a party
0:52:57 > 0:52:58event as a teenager, but was discouraged
0:52:58 > 0:53:03from reporting the assault.
0:53:06 > 0:53:09Let's see what some of the people had to say about the award.
0:53:09 > 0:53:16. We can't all be sluts. We can't all be asking for it.This reality
0:53:16 > 0:53:21might not have to be our reality any more.I felt this crushing sense of
0:53:21 > 0:53:27powerfullessness. This is the time to take my power back.Sexual
0:53:27 > 0:53:32harassment...I felt it was my duty for the women who are silent to be
0:53:32 > 0:53:37brave.It is OK to stand up for yourself.
0:53:37 > 0:53:41Appealing in court today...People forget there is a human behind this.
0:53:41 > 0:53:47Someone who is very hurt and wronged.
0:53:53 > 0:53:57I always thought maybe things could change for my daughter. I never
0:53:57 > 0:54:02thought things could change for me.
0:54:02 > 0:54:04And I'm joined now by journalist Jane Merrick who is one
0:54:04 > 0:54:07of the people who has been recognised as Time Magazine's Person
0:54:07 > 0:54:07of the Year award.
0:54:08 > 0:54:13Welcome to the programme. How do you feel? Congratulations.I feel
0:54:13 > 0:54:18incredibly proud to be on this list of extraordinary women and men from
0:54:18 > 0:54:22all parts of society. Not just the prominent individuals we have heard
0:54:22 > 0:54:28about. There is a strawberry picker who was sexually harassed and hotel
0:54:28 > 0:54:34workers it is all parts of society. When you wrote the article about
0:54:34 > 0:54:38your specific experience with Michael Fallon when he lunge at you
0:54:38 > 0:54:42in that lunch in 2003, did you have any idea of the impact it would
0:54:42 > 0:54:46have?I didn't realise it would have this impact. When you are caught up
0:54:46 > 0:54:53in something like that you don't realise. Obviously I was aware of
0:54:53 > 0:54:59the Harvey Weinstein allegations which hit a few weeks before. The
0:54:59 > 0:55:04sequence of events the issues involving Westminster were
0:55:04 > 0:55:14triflelised.
0:55:14 > 0:55:18DYou felt nothing would be done about sexual harassment, an abuse of
0:55:18 > 0:55:22power here?Michael Fallon had been identified. He was involved with a
0:55:22 > 0:55:26story touching a knee and it was dealt with in her own way. But he
0:55:26 > 0:55:30was saying that was sort of, it was a long time ago and that was the
0:55:30 > 0:55:33kind of thing that happened. I knew what had happened to me was not
0:55:33 > 0:55:39acceptable at the time and it was not acceptable then. I was aware of
0:55:39 > 0:55:42other allegations involving women who could not speak out. That is why
0:55:42 > 0:55:47I went public.Why didn't you before?It is an interesting
0:55:47 > 0:55:51question I have had to answer myself and why when I was 29 didn't I
0:55:51 > 0:55:56report to the whips or to the newspaper I worked. I go to the
0:55:56 > 0:56:01heart of this problem, I was scared of being blacklisted by the
0:56:01 > 0:56:04Conservative Party, that no Tory MP would want to go out for lunch and
0:56:04 > 0:56:09reprisals. When I was reporting Michael Fallon to Downing Street I
0:56:09 > 0:56:15was still worried about being untrustworthy, somehow.Have there
0:56:15 > 0:56:21been reprisals? Has there been a back lash at all?Not something I
0:56:21 > 0:56:31can put my finger on. There has been a bit of criticism on twitter, but
0:56:31 > 0:56:34broadly supportive.Do you think there is and more should be made of
0:56:34 > 0:56:38the fact there is a difference between what you might call clumsy
0:56:38 > 0:56:48flirting - what you might call inappropriate behaviour and sexual
0:56:48 > 0:56:52harassment and them all lumped together?We are not aKuwaiting that
0:56:52 > 0:57:01type of behaviour. We are not equating what happened to me with
0:57:01 > 0:57:08Bex BaileyThis was unacceptable. This was not flirting. This was not
0:57:08 > 0:57:13making a pass. He crossed the line. People realise that. The rules of
0:57:13 > 0:57:23flirting have not changed. The rules of how we tolerate it have. Do you
0:57:23 > 0:57:29think something will be done?It is great to have this. Times Person of
0:57:29 > 0:57:34the Year, I don't want it to be just about 2017, I don't want it to be
0:57:34 > 0:57:37just the story of 2017, something has to change. If we, I am very
0:57:37 > 0:57:40lucky to have this platform to be able to talk about it. We have to
0:57:40 > 0:57:44carry on talking about it and making sure that a culture will change.
0:57:44 > 0:57:47That is the only way we will make a difference, not for me and the
0:57:47 > 0:57:52people on the list, but for women who cannot speak out, for women who
0:57:52 > 0:57:53are being harassed.
0:57:55 > 0:57:58There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
0:57:58 > 0:58:01Yesterday Stanley Johnson, father of Boris, was booted out
0:58:01 > 0:58:02of the Jungle in I'm a Celebrity.
0:58:02 > 0:58:05He said he was looking forward to checking his emails,
0:58:05 > 0:58:07but what did he want to find out?
0:58:07 > 0:58:09Was it: a) If England were winning the Ashes?
0:58:09 > 0:58:11B) If his son, Boris, was still Foreign Secretary?
0:58:11 > 0:58:13C) If Donald Trump had abandoned Twitter?
0:58:13 > 0:58:17Or d) If he was getting an invite to the Royal wedding next year?
0:58:19 > 0:58:25I think it was whether Boris has kept his job. Let's have a look.
0:58:27 > 0:58:29What are you looking forward to, now you're out?
0:58:29 > 0:58:31I'm absolutely looking forward to my e-mails.
0:58:31 > 0:58:31Are you really?
0:58:31 > 0:58:33Isn't that pathetic?
0:58:33 > 0:58:35I want to know what's been happening in the great outside.
0:58:35 > 0:58:36It's been very very quiet.
0:58:36 > 0:58:39I want to know if Boris is still Foreign Secretary, for example.
0:58:39 > 0:58:41I mean, I want to know that.
0:58:41 > 0:58:46I am sure he is, he's doing a fantastic job.
0:58:46 > 0:58:47That's all for today.
0:58:47 > 0:58:50Thanks to our guests.
0:58:50 > 0:58:57The One o'clock News is starting over on BBC One now.
0:58:57 > 0:59:00Andrew will be back tonight with This Week.
0:59:00 > 0:59:02Goodbye.