0:00:38 > 0:00:42Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44Theresa May secures a breakthrough in Brexit, after striking
0:00:44 > 0:00:50a last-minute deal with the EU to move talks on to the next phase.
0:00:50 > 0:00:54Getting to this point has required give and take on both sides,
0:00:54 > 0:00:58and I believe that the joint report being published is in the best
0:00:58 > 0:01:01interests of the whole of the UK.
0:01:01 > 0:01:05I very much welcome the prospect of moving ahead to the next phase.
0:01:05 > 0:01:07Brussels describes the deal as a "personal victory"
0:01:07 > 0:01:09for the Prime Minister.
0:01:09 > 0:01:12She admits she's had a hard week after earlier attempts at reaching
0:01:12 > 0:01:15agreement collapsed.
0:01:15 > 0:01:17There's been progress on major sticking points
0:01:17 > 0:01:19including the Irish border - but if you thought that was
0:01:19 > 0:01:22difficult, negotiators will now move onto the even trickier business
0:01:22 > 0:01:28of trying to agree a post-Brexit trade deal.
0:01:33 > 0:01:36All that in the next hour - and with me for all of it,
0:01:36 > 0:01:39two journalists with views on Brexit about as wide as
0:01:39 > 0:01:42the English Channel.
0:01:42 > 0:01:44It's the Guardian's Polly Toynbee, and Camilla Tominey
0:01:44 > 0:01:47from the Sunday Express.
0:01:47 > 0:01:49Perhaps we can build a few bridges today -
0:01:49 > 0:01:52or even a Channel Tunnel.
0:01:52 > 0:01:56So, Theresa May landed in Brussels shortly before 6am this morning
0:01:56 > 0:02:00to finalise a new draft agreement between Britain and the EU,
0:02:00 > 0:02:05having negotiated by phone into the early hours with key
0:02:05 > 0:02:06players including the leader of Northern Ireland's
0:02:06 > 0:02:10Democratic Unionist Party, Arlene Foster.
0:02:10 > 0:02:13At a joint press conference with the Prime Minister this
0:02:13 > 0:02:15morning, European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker said
0:02:15 > 0:02:23he is satisfied that the fabled "sufficient progress" has now been
0:02:23 > 0:02:25made, meaning talks can move on to trade
0:02:25 > 0:02:27and transition in the new year.
0:02:27 > 0:02:33Barring any last-minute upsets - and who in all of this
0:02:33 > 0:02:34would entirely rule one out?
0:02:34 > 0:02:36- the deal should be signed off at next week's meeting
0:02:36 > 0:02:38of European leaders.
0:02:38 > 0:02:41We've been working extremely hard this week and, as you've all seen,
0:02:41 > 0:02:43it hasn't been easy for either side.
0:02:43 > 0:02:47When we met on Monday, we said a deal was within reach.
0:02:47 > 0:02:49What we have arrived at today represents a significant improvement
0:02:49 > 0:02:53and I'm grateful to the negotiating teams, led by David Davis and Michel
0:02:53 > 0:02:56Barnier, for their efforts.
0:02:56 > 0:03:00Getting to this point has required give and take on both sides
0:03:00 > 0:03:04and I believe that the joint report being published is in the best
0:03:04 > 0:03:09interests of the UK.
0:03:09 > 0:03:12I very much welcome the prospect of moving ahead to the next phase
0:03:12 > 0:03:15to talk about trade and security and to discuss the positive
0:03:15 > 0:03:20and ambitious future relationship that is in all of our interests.
0:03:20 > 0:03:23On the basis of the mandate which was given to me
0:03:23 > 0:03:27by the European Council, the commission has just formally
0:03:27 > 0:03:31decided to recommend to the European Council that
0:03:31 > 0:03:34sufficient progress has now been made on the strict
0:03:34 > 0:03:37terms of the divorce.
0:03:37 > 0:03:42While being satisfied with today's agreement,
0:03:42 > 0:03:47which is obviously the personal success of Prime Minister Theresa
0:03:47 > 0:03:52May, let us remember that the most difficult challenge is still ahead.
0:03:52 > 0:03:55We all know that breaking up is hard but breaking up and building
0:03:55 > 0:04:05a new relation is much harder.
0:04:08 > 0:04:12Camilla, can Theresa May rightly claim personal success for this?
0:04:12 > 0:04:16Well, they say a week is a long time in politics and if you compare where
0:04:16 > 0:04:21she is now to where she was at least 48 hours ago, where I think senior
0:04:21 > 0:04:27Brexiteers were ready to perhaps be a little bit more disloyal than they
0:04:27 > 0:04:29have been, being very vehement about the fact she might have been rolling
0:04:29 > 0:04:34over and it was going on the wrong direction, you had Jacob Rees-Mogg
0:04:34 > 0:04:38talking about the pain killing of her red lines and Peter Bone making
0:04:38 > 0:04:42a joke about did she need him to accompany her out there to secure
0:04:42 > 0:04:49the negotiations, and the DUP looking to secure a better future in
0:04:49 > 0:04:53terms of Brexiteers, I think things have changed and the fact she has
0:04:53 > 0:04:56been personally congratulated by Donald Tusk as well as by
0:04:56 > 0:04:59Jean-Claude Juncker, who said it was a personal victory for her, it takes
0:04:59 > 0:05:04into a much better position this week and that she may have been.Do
0:05:04 > 0:05:08you think the people you just mentioned, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Peter
0:05:08 > 0:05:15Bone amber lights, are on-board?So far, Leave Means Leave have released
0:05:15 > 0:05:19a statement and they're present all these Brexiteers. We have heard from
0:05:19 > 0:05:22Farage and others who seem to be on the more extremist and a Brexit who
0:05:22 > 0:05:26are not going to be happy, just as those on the extremist end of any
0:05:26 > 0:05:29debate are often not happy with what seems to be a compromise. I think
0:05:29 > 0:05:33the EU has met us a long way when it comes to ECJ, I think there have
0:05:33 > 0:05:37been some concessions made by this side. I think so-called pragmatic
0:05:37 > 0:05:44Brexiteers will be saying to themselves, it is not perfect but is
0:05:44 > 0:05:47better than where we thought we were earlier in the week and equally, I
0:05:47 > 0:05:49think you have a situation where people are accepting that in a
0:05:49 > 0:05:52compromised series of negotiations, nobody is going to be 100% happy and
0:05:52 > 0:05:57if anyone was 100% tabby, that would mean the negotiations were too far
0:05:57 > 0:06:02waited in one way or the other.It has been a Herculean task to get all
0:06:02 > 0:06:06the different strands on-board - the Irish government and the EU are on
0:06:06 > 0:06:09the same side, you've got the DUP, both wings of the Conservative
0:06:09 > 0:06:14Party, and she has managed it.They have all managed it. The Europeans
0:06:14 > 0:06:21have been very keen... The praise they have lavished on her, to keep
0:06:21 > 0:06:24her there because they are afraid they could get something much worse
0:06:24 > 0:06:27if she is unseated and this week it looked as if the high Brexiteers
0:06:27 > 0:06:31might have pushed her off her feet but in the end, all they have done
0:06:31 > 0:06:37is kick the can down the road. We know we have a guarantee of a soft
0:06:37 > 0:06:44border, we have this alignment right across the whole European Union...
0:06:44 > 0:06:48If the trade deal isn't actually secured. It is the fallback option,
0:06:48 > 0:06:53full alignment for the whole of the UK.Yes, but you can't have both
0:06:53 > 0:06:57things. If you have alignment, it has to be near as dammit in the
0:06:57 > 0:07:04customs union rules.But I think... Wait a minute. It has got to be very
0:07:04 > 0:07:07close. The French and everybody else have said you can't have an open
0:07:07 > 0:07:11border, you can't have a soft border, unless you have almost
0:07:11 > 0:07:15identical trading agreements, in which case most of the Remainers
0:07:15 > 0:07:18will be mostly happy because they know we are going to leave the EU
0:07:18 > 0:07:22anyway. What they are really worried about is divorcing ourselves from
0:07:22 > 0:07:27the single market and the customs union and if, in effect, we are more
0:07:27 > 0:07:32or less staying in it to keep the border open, then they're happy, but
0:07:32 > 0:07:37when that becomes clear the other lot won't be, the Peter Bone we're
0:07:37 > 0:07:41and Jacob Rees-Moggs.We are going to pick over it like a dog with a
0:07:41 > 0:07:49vote later in the programme. -- dog with a bone.
0:07:49 > 0:07:51So, the deal came before dawn, allowing Theresa May
0:07:51 > 0:07:54and her negotiating partners in Brussels a chance to smile over
0:07:54 > 0:07:55croissants and orange juice.
0:07:55 > 0:07:56But what exactly did they agree?
0:07:56 > 0:07:59The report makes the commitment that there will be no hard
0:07:59 > 0:08:01border between the UK and the Republic of Ireland.
0:08:01 > 0:08:04It is unclear how this will be achieved but in the absence
0:08:04 > 0:08:06of agreement on the issue between the EU and UK
0:08:06 > 0:08:09during trade negotiations, it says the UK will maintain "full
0:08:09 > 0:08:11alignment" with EU rules, in areas pertaining to Northern Ireland.
0:08:11 > 0:08:13The Good Friday Agreement and the Common Travel
0:08:13 > 0:08:14Area will be upheld.
0:08:14 > 0:08:16EU citizens living in the UK and vice versa
0:08:16 > 0:08:20will have their rights to live, work and study protected.
0:08:20 > 0:08:23UK courts will preside over enforcing the rights of EU citizens
0:08:23 > 0:08:26in Britain but can refer unclear cases to "ultimate arbiter of Union
0:08:26 > 0:08:29law" the European Court of Justice for eight years
0:08:29 > 0:08:33after the UK's withdrawal.
0:08:33 > 0:08:43In terms of the money, no specific figure is mentioned
0:08:44 > 0:08:47But the two parties have agreed a formula to calculate the financial
0:08:47 > 0:08:50settlement.
0:08:50 > 0:08:52The UK has made a number of financial commitments,
0:08:52 > 0:08:54including paying into the EU budget as usual in 2019/20
0:08:54 > 0:08:57as well as its pension contributions liabilities.
0:08:57 > 0:09:01The report will have to be agreed upon by the European Council summit
0:09:01 > 0:09:06next Thursday and Friday, before negotiations about the UK's future
0:09:06 > 0:09:11relationship with the EU can start.
0:09:11 > 0:09:15We're joined now from Brussels by our correspondent Kevin Connolly.
0:09:15 > 0:09:20Everybody talks about give and take. Who has given more and who has taken
0:09:20 > 0:09:23more?The Europeans are going to feel that they have got an awful lot
0:09:23 > 0:09:27of what they wanted out of the British, for example the idea that
0:09:27 > 0:09:30Britain didn't owe the European Union a penny has been quietly
0:09:30 > 0:09:34shelved. That is the most spectacular example of what Brussels
0:09:34 > 0:09:40would see as the shifting of ground on the British side. The UK can
0:09:40 > 0:09:44point to some areas where the European Union has rowed back. At
0:09:44 > 0:09:48one point, those European agencies which are being moved from London to
0:09:48 > 0:09:51other European cities as a result of Brexit, the EU was going to ask for
0:09:51 > 0:09:55the British side to pay all the costs of that removal process. That
0:09:55 > 0:09:58seems to have gone away. So Britain can point to concessions and I think
0:09:58 > 0:10:02it is critical for Theresa May that this doesn't look like a process
0:10:02 > 0:10:07where Britain is a supplicant or where it is trying to pass a series
0:10:07 > 0:10:12of tests set by the European Union but rather that it is a genuine
0:10:12 > 0:10:16negotiation. I think there is enough on both sides that that argument can
0:10:16 > 0:10:20be plausibly made but there is no doubt that the European Union has an
0:10:20 > 0:10:23enormous amount of power in this relationship, because the great
0:10:23 > 0:10:29prize for Theresa May, the thing we can now start. About, is that trade
0:10:29 > 0:10:35negotiation. I will not miss the phrase sufficient progress because
0:10:35 > 0:10:40we have been saying a daily for nine months sufficient progress has now
0:10:40 > 0:10:43been made and people are Donald Tusk and Michel Barnier are warning that
0:10:43 > 0:10:47the next bit is the really hard bit. It took the EU seven years to
0:10:47 > 0:10:51negotiate a free trade agreement with friendly, liberal, reasonable
0:10:51 > 0:10:55Canada, so it is not going to be easy but at least it is now under
0:10:55 > 0:11:00way and the timetable has been stuck two and a deadline has been met, so
0:11:00 > 0:11:04what looked at the start of this week, frankly, like a wobbly,
0:11:04 > 0:11:13uncertain process now looks a bit more predictable from the Brussels
0:11:13 > 0:11:16point of view so there is a palpable sense of relief here this morning.
0:11:16 > 0:11:20And we're joined now by the Brexit minister Steve Baker.
0:11:20 > 0:11:23It hasn't been easy reaching this point. If we just look at this week,
0:11:23 > 0:11:27the Prime Minister thought she had an agreement on Monday and then the
0:11:27 > 0:11:30DUP withdrew support it up last night, she had to fly to Brussels on
0:11:30 > 0:11:33in the middle of the night it seemed, in order to get that
0:11:33 > 0:11:36agreement are gone to the next phase. How do you think the next bit
0:11:36 > 0:11:41is going to go?I think it is going to be an interesting town to be in
0:11:41 > 0:11:47politics and public policy.That much we know.I think we're going to
0:11:47 > 0:11:51accelerate our capacity in the negotiations and of future
0:11:51 > 0:11:55relationship in the paper and I would expect to see an increase in
0:11:55 > 0:11:59progress that we make.Let's turn to the limitation period. Have the EU
0:11:59 > 0:12:05agreed to want and how long would it be?We need to get onto the future
0:12:05 > 0:12:08relationship negotiations before a negotiation period so that is
0:12:08 > 0:12:12something we can do at the council. But there is going to be an
0:12:12 > 0:12:16intimidation period?That is the policy and I am glad it is. We
0:12:16 > 0:12:20expected to be two years because the Prime Minister has explained, it is
0:12:20 > 0:12:23about how long we need to do the practical things which lead to the
0:12:23 > 0:12:28best possible exit.It could be longer than two years?We expected
0:12:28 > 0:12:34to be two years.Junior limitation period, the UK will stay in the
0:12:34 > 0:12:37single market on the customs union and the EU guidelines for the future
0:12:37 > 0:12:41relationship so that.What the Prime Minister explained the France speech
0:12:41 > 0:12:44is that we would continue in the plantation period within the
0:12:44 > 0:12:48framework of current de Leeuw law. But upon what is not often be made
0:12:48 > 0:12:51here is that in order to conclude that agreement would need to be
0:12:51 > 0:12:55outside the treaties, which is a matter of EU law. So the trick is to
0:12:55 > 0:13:00leave the sphere of treaty law and be outside the EU without ending on
0:13:00 > 0:13:03the practical arrangements so we have that period of stability and
0:13:03 > 0:13:06continuity.I have the council guidelines in front of me and they
0:13:06 > 0:13:10are talking about transitional arrangements and it says, "In order
0:13:10 > 0:13:14to ensure a level playing field based on the same rules applied
0:13:14 > 0:13:18throughout the single market, changes to the act adopted by EU
0:13:18 > 0:13:25institutions and bodies will have to apply both in the UK and the EU. All
0:13:25 > 0:13:30existing union regulatory budgetary, supervisory, judiciary and
0:13:30 > 0:13:35enforcement instruments will also apply". Do you agree?We don't
0:13:35 > 0:13:41comment on leaked documents.This is leaked but it is the general
0:13:41 > 0:13:44secretariat of the council, the European Council draft guidelines.
0:13:44 > 0:13:49It is extremely clear.What you've just read out is consistent with
0:13:49 > 0:13:51what the Prime Minister has previously said and is also
0:13:51 > 0:13:56consistent with what the EU has previously said. But what I would
0:13:56 > 0:13:59say is, there is space for everyone to move considerably through this
0:13:59 > 0:14:06process.Whitbread will change? Would Freeman to -- freedom of
0:14:06 > 0:14:09movement continue?The point is that we have managed to achieve
0:14:09 > 0:14:14significant progress in a way which is, I think, broadly being welcomed
0:14:14 > 0:14:19and that means we can get onto the future relationship conversation in
0:14:19 > 0:14:23order to agree a future relationship which is in everyone's best
0:14:23 > 0:14:27interests.That future agreement would include signing new trade
0:14:27 > 0:14:30deals, for example, the future, but not during this transition period.
0:14:30 > 0:14:34Do you accept that Britain will not be able to strike any new trade
0:14:34 > 0:14:38deals until March 2021 at the earliest?The issue is when you can
0:14:38 > 0:14:42start negotiating them and when you can put them into place. Under the
0:14:42 > 0:14:46framework of the fermentation period, I think we all expect we
0:14:46 > 0:14:50would not be able to implement new trade agreements with new countries
0:14:50 > 0:14:55during the implementation period.So 2021 would be the earliest?I would
0:14:55 > 0:14:59expect us to start negotiating during the limitation period for
0:14:59 > 0:15:03conclusion after it. I expect we could get onto a great deal of
0:15:03 > 0:15:08detailed work through Liam Fox's department.And freedom of movement
0:15:08 > 0:15:12would continue until March 2021?The date which is relevant to the
0:15:12 > 0:15:15agreement which has been struck his exit day but we will need to get on
0:15:15 > 0:15:17and talk about the future relationship before any of those
0:15:17 > 0:15:21things have been agreed.Do you accept they have said you will have
0:15:21 > 0:15:25to sign up to all of the agreements, including the four freedoms, if you
0:15:25 > 0:15:29are going to remain part of the customs union and single market
0:15:29 > 0:15:32until transition is finished?You asking me to comment on league
0:15:32 > 0:15:36documents and we don't do that.
0:15:40 > 0:15:45Do you accept the UK would still have freedom of movement up until
0:15:45 > 0:15:512021?I am going to celebrate we have achieved sufficient progress.
0:15:51 > 0:15:54We will get through the negotiations knowing what our objectives are and
0:15:54 > 0:15:59then we will conclude a relationship. I'd take a judgment
0:15:59 > 0:16:03like every member of Parliament and every member of the public.So
0:16:03 > 0:16:06freedom of movement could continue? We are very clear we are going to be
0:16:06 > 0:16:12taking back control of our laws, borders, money, trade policy.When?
0:16:12 > 0:16:16We need to get into the future relationship agreement.You've just
0:16:16 > 0:16:21said you'll make a judgment. Freedom of movement you will take in the
0:16:21 > 0:16:24round along with everything else including that you trade deal.The
0:16:24 > 0:16:28Prime Minister is very clear that we are taking back control of our
0:16:28 > 0:16:32migration policy. There is a migration Bill coming forward.
0:16:32 > 0:16:36People watching will understand we've just moved from one testing
0:16:36 > 0:16:40negotiation in order to move into the next phase of a testing
0:16:40 > 0:16:44negotiation. It's not for me as a Minister in the government to
0:16:44 > 0:16:52pre-empt that long negotiation.So there are no red lines?Of course.
0:16:52 > 0:16:56What are they?The ones the primers to set out in her Lancaster House
0:16:56 > 0:17:01speech and Florence speech -- the Prime Minister. We are clear the
0:17:01 > 0:17:05implementation period needs to conducted in the framework of EU
0:17:05 > 0:17:12rules.Including freedom of movement and the jurisdiction of the ECJ.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15These will be matters of negotiation. For the moment we need
0:17:15 > 0:17:21to go forward with this agreement to the council, the other nations of
0:17:21 > 0:17:26Europe agree with us it's not all about interests to move forward.
0:17:26 > 0:17:30Let's talk about the European Court of Justice. In this document but
0:17:30 > 0:17:34also in discussions there has been agreement by the UK that the ECJ
0:17:34 > 0:17:38will continue to have a role as being the arbiter on EU citizens'
0:17:38 > 0:17:45rights. That will continue until 2021.You mean the withdrawal
0:17:45 > 0:17:48agreement?The agreement you've signed up to. The withdrawal
0:17:48 > 0:17:53agreement is clear there is a voluntary limited role for our
0:17:53 > 0:17:56courts to refer cases to the European Court so that we can
0:17:56 > 0:18:02establish a body of case law within the withdrawal agreement. Let's keep
0:18:02 > 0:18:06it simple. The European Court of Justice will continue to have a role
0:18:06 > 0:18:10as the ultimate arbiter beyond transition for eight years.The
0:18:10 > 0:18:15direct jurisdiction of the Court of Justice will end. There will be a
0:18:15 > 0:18:19capacity for our courts to make a voluntary referral to the Court of
0:18:19 > 0:18:25justice and case law where there is a gap in case law, on the body of
0:18:25 > 0:18:29law as it exists on exit day. I think that is a reasonable thing to
0:18:29 > 0:18:34do to give citizens certainty as the withdrawal agreement beds in, so we
0:18:34 > 0:18:39can all understand caselaw on the withdrawal agreement is being
0:18:39 > 0:18:43consistently interpreted. I think that is a civilised thing to do for
0:18:43 > 0:18:45European citizens which I would have thought that people who took the
0:18:45 > 0:18:51view we should keep people well would welcome.You may well be right
0:18:51 > 0:18:54but it wasn't what we were led to believe by some of your colleagues
0:18:54 > 0:19:02who said that every single aspect of the ECJ would end when we leave.
0:19:02 > 0:19:05This is a negotiation and we've worked through a range of complex
0:19:05 > 0:19:11issues. We've reached a position which I am happy to accept, much as
0:19:11 > 0:19:15many of us would have liked to keep things simple to everybody, but the
0:19:15 > 0:19:20reality is we need to do what is right by European citizens. We've
0:19:20 > 0:19:24agreed this mechanism of voluntary limited referral on narrow grounds,
0:19:24 > 0:19:32which I think is reasonable as we establish the caselaw of with -- of
0:19:32 > 0:19:38the withdrawal agreement.Let's talk about the agreement of the DUP. What
0:19:38 > 0:19:42does it mean?The first thing to say is it refers to a fallback scenario
0:19:42 > 0:19:45in the event we don't reach a quality future relationship
0:19:45 > 0:19:53agreement. We want to honour the Belfast agreement and inshore
0:19:53 > 0:19:58North-South co-operation on the island of Ireland continues. This is
0:19:58 > 0:20:02about a fallback position, it's not about where we want to go. The
0:20:02 > 0:20:05document is extremely clear that the UK will preserve its political and
0:20:05 > 0:20:10economic integrity, that the United Kingdom will leave the customs union
0:20:10 > 0:20:16and single market.What does full nine and -- full alignment mean? You
0:20:16 > 0:20:22said the integrity of the UK will stay in its entirety, so does that
0:20:22 > 0:20:25full alignment with customs and standards of the EU applied to the
0:20:25 > 0:20:33whole of the UK in that full -- fallback scenario?I'm expecting us
0:20:33 > 0:20:39to discuss all these issues. I would expect us to agree objectives and
0:20:39 > 0:20:43then regulatory recognition, which is a standard practice in trade
0:20:43 > 0:20:47agreements, so that we have a capacity to sometimes agree on what
0:20:47 > 0:20:51we want to achieve and how we do it, and sometimes to agree that we will
0:20:51 > 0:20:56differ in how we meet the same shared objectives.In order to keep
0:20:56 > 0:21:02that soft border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, you accept that in
0:21:02 > 0:21:06that full and macro fallback position we will be signed up to the
0:21:06 > 0:21:11standards and regulations and customs of the EU?What I accept is
0:21:11 > 0:21:16we've had a great success...You are not answering the questions about
0:21:16 > 0:21:19what has actually been agreed.I would have thought you would welcome
0:21:19 > 0:21:22we've got onto the future relationship agreement which would
0:21:22 > 0:21:25allow us to resolve some of these issues collaboratively and jointly
0:21:25 > 0:21:31in everyone's mutual interests.How did you get the DUP to agree to this
0:21:31 > 0:21:36when they were so unhappy a few days ago?I wasn't party to the
0:21:36 > 0:21:40conversation. As they've explained, I saw Arlene Foster explaining it,
0:21:40 > 0:21:45there have been a number of changes. In particular that the commitment to
0:21:45 > 0:21:48maintaining the constitution and economic integrity of the UK
0:21:48 > 0:21:52including Northern Ireland.Let's talk about the money. Philip Hammond
0:21:52 > 0:21:57says we will be paying that divorce settlement Bill even without a trade
0:21:57 > 0:22:00deal, is that right?The situation is nothing is agreed until
0:22:00 > 0:22:06everything is agreed.So he is wrong?Nothing is agreed until
0:22:06 > 0:22:09everything is agreed. We are a rule of law nation state which wishes to
0:22:09 > 0:22:12honour its commitments which we've incurred but we are moving through
0:22:12 > 0:22:17this negotiation in a spirit of goodwill, wishing to set up a new
0:22:17 > 0:22:23partnership which serves us. Quite so when Philip Hammond said he would
0:22:23 > 0:22:27find it inconceivable that we wouldn't actually pay for our
0:22:27 > 0:22:31obligations and contributions even if we didn't secure a free trade
0:22:31 > 0:22:35deal did he misspeak? We are proceeding in a spirit of
0:22:35 > 0:22:38cooperation is looking towards our future relationship. In those
0:22:38 > 0:22:41circumstances we would expect to meet our commitments which we have
0:22:41 > 0:22:45entered into, and to move forward into that new relationship. These
0:22:45 > 0:22:50things go together. We need to focus on a process of moving through the
0:22:50 > 0:22:54negotiation, to land in a place which suits everyone.I'm still not
0:22:54 > 0:22:59clear. Will we pay the £45 billion which has been talked about in the
0:22:59 > 0:23:03divorce settlement whether we get a trade deal or not?I'm not expecting
0:23:03 > 0:23:10to pay a figure as high as £45 billion.£40 billion then?We are
0:23:10 > 0:23:15expecting to move through into a process where we conclude a
0:23:15 > 0:23:18relationship in everyone's best interest, that is where all of us
0:23:18 > 0:23:22should be focusing our efforts. Polly Toynbee, listening to Steve
0:23:22 > 0:23:27Baker, do you think it is clear that there are no more red lines in the
0:23:27 > 0:23:32negotiations that are now going to proceed?I'm delighted to hear, it
0:23:32 > 0:23:38really sounds as if there aren't. I was on the politics with Steve Baker
0:23:38 > 0:23:45before he became a Minister. He was an adamant Leaver and he wouldn't
0:23:45 > 0:23:49have accepted paying a significant amount of money, staying under the
0:23:49 > 0:23:54ECJ...We went beyond the ECJ.And above all, alignment such that we
0:23:54 > 0:24:00can have a soft border with Ireland. It is a very good thing, the DUP
0:24:00 > 0:24:04were right about that. That alignment means in effect we are
0:24:04 > 0:24:10moral less in the single market and customs union. If that is what
0:24:10 > 0:24:15happens I will be delighted.Can you guarantee that the whole of the
0:24:15 > 0:24:20UK...I did think I've changed my views. I've always been a rule of
0:24:20 > 0:24:24law Conservative, boys understood we will want to have a cooperative
0:24:24 > 0:24:28relationship. What I've wanted to do is change the structure of that
0:24:28 > 0:24:32relationship. What I would expect to happen, and it is a
0:24:32 > 0:24:35mischaracterisation to talk about being under the ECJ. We will not be.
0:24:35 > 0:24:39The direct jurisdiction of the ECJ will come to an end and we will
0:24:39 > 0:24:44control our laws. I'm sorry it's slightly complex but I'd explained
0:24:44 > 0:24:47in some detail but what we need to do is have the capacity for a
0:24:47 > 0:24:52voluntary referral to establish the caselaw of the withdrawal agreement
0:24:52 > 0:25:01on the narrow question of citizens' rights, where they've already...
0:25:01 > 0:25:06Polly, we are going to have to move on. You said that figure of £45
0:25:06 > 0:25:11billion was way over, what should it be in your mind?There will be a
0:25:11 > 0:25:14technical briefing which will explain more of this. Our budget
0:25:14 > 0:25:22contributions which we've already... Will be less?I would expect it to.
0:25:22 > 0:25:26How has the deal been received by those in the Labour Party arguing
0:25:26 > 0:25:28for the close as possible relationship with the EU after
0:25:28 > 0:25:35Brexit? Chuka Umunna joins me now from south London. Do you welcome
0:25:35 > 0:25:40this agreement?I'm pleased we are moving to the next phase. It's about
0:25:40 > 0:25:45time. The government has wasted a lot of time, we are 18 months into
0:25:45 > 0:25:49this process and very little progress in the overall scheme of
0:25:49 > 0:25:55things. I'm pleased.
0:25:55 > 0:25:58It's interesting listening to Steve Baker radically trying to repaint
0:25:58 > 0:26:02the lines set out in the Prime Minister's speech last January. If
0:26:02 > 0:26:07you go back to all the things she said, there would be no adherence to
0:26:07 > 0:26:10European Court of Justice rulings, clearly that is going to be the case
0:26:10 > 0:26:14in respect of EU citizens' rights in the document that has just been
0:26:14 > 0:26:18released by the commission. We were told there wouldn't be huge
0:26:18 > 0:26:22contributions into the EU budget, we will be contributing until 2020, and
0:26:22 > 0:26:26of course there is the divorce Bill which in some respects was the price
0:26:26 > 0:26:33of being able to move to the next age of over £40 billion.What should
0:26:33 > 0:26:36the Labour leadership under Jeremy Corbyn and Keir Starmer when it
0:26:36 > 0:26:41comes to Brexit, what should their position be now?It's very clear
0:26:41 > 0:26:47that in order to be able to get the exact same economic benefits as we
0:26:47 > 0:26:50enjoyed at the moment in the European Union once we've left, we
0:26:50 > 0:26:53need to stay in the single market and the customs union permanently. A
0:26:53 > 0:26:59lot has been talked about transition, business has asked for a
0:26:59 > 0:27:02decent transition period. What transition does is it simply delays
0:27:02 > 0:27:06jumping off the cliff if you don't have proper arrangements in place
0:27:06 > 0:27:15afterwards.Do you expect to hear that now from the shadow team in
0:27:15 > 0:27:18your party, that they should commit to staying in the single market and
0:27:18 > 0:27:24the customs union?I'm very pleased to hear Keir Starmer say at the
0:27:24 > 0:27:28dispatch box this week that we think will these options should stay on
0:27:28 > 0:27:32the table. That's very encouraging. I would like us to go that bit
0:27:32 > 0:27:36further and be absolutely clear that we are seeking to stay in the
0:27:36 > 0:27:40customs union and the single market permanently. The big thing here is,
0:27:40 > 0:27:46every time this move forward we see new facts emerging. That big divorce
0:27:46 > 0:27:50Bill that Steve Baker has been trying to dismiss almost, that
0:27:50 > 0:27:53wasn't what people thought they were going to be voting for. If you're
0:27:53 > 0:27:57paying that big divorce Bill which we will be paying, you aren't going
0:27:57 > 0:28:02to get the £350 million extra per week going to the NHS, which was
0:28:02 > 0:28:06central to the campaign Steve Baker was part. You go back to many of the
0:28:06 > 0:28:09other things said. I remember when Tony Blair and John Major went to
0:28:09 > 0:28:14Northern Ireland as part of referendum campaign and people said
0:28:14 > 0:28:17when they were talking a potential problems with the Irish border that
0:28:17 > 0:28:20they were engaging in project here. That has dominated proceedings over
0:28:20 > 0:28:27the last couple of weeks. Every time we move forward new facts are
0:28:27 > 0:28:30presenting themselves and that is why we have to have an open mind
0:28:30 > 0:28:35about what happened at the end of this process...Do you have an open
0:28:35 > 0:28:40mind on the agreement that has been reached, because the DUP and the
0:28:40 > 0:28:44Irish government as well as the EU generally are on board at this
0:28:44 > 0:28:48point, and there seems to be a commitment and broad agreement that
0:28:48 > 0:28:54there will be this open border, as will be integrity of the UK going
0:28:54 > 0:28:59forward be retained? Surely you're happy about that?Absolutely. My
0:28:59 > 0:29:03central argument here is there is going to be a lot of focus on
0:29:03 > 0:29:06government competence and how long this has taken. The fact is, Brexit
0:29:06 > 0:29:12in the terms it was sold to the British people is proving impossible
0:29:12 > 0:29:17to deliver.That's what compromises about, isn't it?Absolutely. I
0:29:17 > 0:29:21wasn't the one setting the red lines in this process at the start. It was
0:29:21 > 0:29:25people like Steve Baker and his Prime Minister setting out all these
0:29:25 > 0:29:28ridiculous red lines which has meant that we've wasted all this time. At
0:29:28 > 0:29:34the end of the day they have committed to this document, they are
0:29:34 > 0:29:37committed to the concept of alignment. The whole reason people
0:29:37 > 0:29:40like Steve Baker, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and others were arguing
0:29:40 > 0:29:44for us to leave the EU was to enable both virgins. Now they've just
0:29:44 > 0:29:48agreed to alignment. Why are we going through this whole process?
0:29:48 > 0:29:54Thank you. We've heard from some Brexit supporting MPs within the
0:29:54 > 0:29:57Conservative Party this morning and on the whole they've given that the
0:29:57 > 0:30:04only cautious welcome. What of the self-styled guard dogs of Brexit,
0:30:04 > 0:30:08Ukip? Their leader joins me now. Do you want to join the queue
0:30:08 > 0:30:11congratulating the Prime Minister and the government on this
0:30:11 > 0:30:17agreement?Absolutely not. What this is is a total surrender to the
0:30:17 > 0:30:22European Commission. In fact, having worked in Brussels for three years I
0:30:22 > 0:30:25recognise the style of the document that is being produced and I would
0:30:25 > 0:30:29say 80-90% of it was drafted in Brussels. We don't know that but
0:30:29 > 0:30:36that is my guess.But the prize is a trade deal is going to be negotiated
0:30:36 > 0:30:42and Britain are successful in that surely it will have your support?
0:30:42 > 0:30:46But if there is no agreement we stay under full alignment and means
0:30:46 > 0:30:51effectively that we are tied to the customs union, to the single market
0:30:51 > 0:30:55and therefore to the European Court of Justice in that regard.Steve
0:30:55 > 0:31:00Baker has just said we won't see the customs union. He said we will not
0:31:00 > 0:31:06say the customs union or the single market and that this is a fallback
0:31:06 > 0:31:12option and will only apply to certain areas under the Good Friday
0:31:12 > 0:31:15Agreement.That is not actually correct because, first of all, we
0:31:15 > 0:31:20may not be part of it but what we will be having to do is comply with
0:31:20 > 0:31:23it in every respect, so we won't have the freedom to move off it if
0:31:23 > 0:31:27that's the best interests of the country, for example in terms of
0:31:27 > 0:31:34trade deals and aligning ourselves to the requirements of export
0:31:34 > 0:31:37markets, but with regards to the Good Friday Agreement for the
0:31:37 > 0:31:41Northern Irish border, that is the starting point. The government and
0:31:41 > 0:31:45we have never asked for, the UK, has never asked for a board of there.
0:31:45 > 0:31:48What Theresa May has allowed to happen is that the European
0:31:48 > 0:31:54Commission who want an external border want us to come up with the
0:31:54 > 0:31:59solution. What the Government has agreed to do in this agreement is a
0:31:59 > 0:32:08line for Northern Ireland but then by paragraph 50, it actually says
0:32:08 > 0:32:15that the UK will not actually implement any barrier to alignment
0:32:15 > 0:32:19between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. And therefore we are
0:32:19 > 0:32:26fully tied to it as the entire UK and I don't support in any way,
0:32:26 > 0:32:28absolutely oppose, anything that provides an obstacle between
0:32:28 > 0:32:33Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.The point is, you are a lone
0:32:33 > 0:32:38voice, really. Ukip has, to some extent, been marginalised and if
0:32:38 > 0:32:42Euro-sceptic Tory MPs and ministers have signed up to this, then your
0:32:42 > 0:32:48words are going to fall on deaf ears.I don't think so. It is a fair
0:32:48 > 0:32:50observation but the thing is, they are all aligning behind this because
0:32:50 > 0:32:55the Tory party are in such a mess over this. We've had a sequence of
0:32:55 > 0:32:58rather disastrous political and dramatic events.They are united,
0:32:58 > 0:33:05aren't they?Yes, because they want to preserve the Conservative Party
0:33:05 > 0:33:10in power.They may say that is the point of them.It is why Steve Baker
0:33:10 > 0:33:14is trying to sell this as the headline issue - isn't it good news
0:33:14 > 0:33:17that there is an agreement? Unfortunately, what they are reliant
0:33:17 > 0:33:21on is that 99 present of the population when they read the small
0:33:21 > 0:33:23print, and the small print says you have basically made an agreement
0:33:23 > 0:33:27where you are going to be handed over a whole lot of money but we are
0:33:27 > 0:33:31still not going to have control over our immigration, we are still going
0:33:31 > 0:33:36to be tied, if not intrinsically members of, tied to the European
0:33:36 > 0:33:40Common Market and single market and customs union and therefore the ECJ.
0:33:40 > 0:33:43Soares no withdrawal from this and there is no end state or any
0:33:43 > 0:33:47incentive to reach a further agreement.Thank you very much.
0:33:47 > 0:33:51Before I move onto my next guest, your observation so far, having
0:33:51 > 0:33:55listened to Steve Baker, who was always described as an art Dureau
0:33:55 > 0:34:00sceptic, and also to Henry Bolton of Ukip. Do they matter?I think we
0:34:00 > 0:34:05need to have further discussion of what this full alignment means,
0:34:05 > 0:34:09because it has lost the word regulatory which means it is open to
0:34:09 > 0:34:13wide interpretation. And it is a fallback position. Second of all, we
0:34:13 > 0:34:18need to look at the facts that when Polly said we have kicked the issue
0:34:18 > 0:34:21to the curb and have put into the long grass because you need to get
0:34:21 > 0:34:24to the next age, that is because the Government all were started from a
0:34:24 > 0:34:27position that you couldn't discuss the Northern Ireland border issue
0:34:27 > 0:34:30unless you were discussing the trade agreement so they have achieved
0:34:30 > 0:34:33something in that and then moved that plank of discussions to the
0:34:33 > 0:34:37next stage because they belong there. Therefore I think, when we
0:34:37 > 0:34:45break this down because it is getting quite competent ethical, --
0:34:45 > 0:34:47complex and technical, our viewers will be concerned with the price
0:34:47 > 0:34:53that is put on this and 40 billion is being bandied around and what I'm
0:34:53 > 0:34:57interested in is what price people will find acceptable. Will the
0:34:57 > 0:35:01Brexiteer readers of our newspaper the kid pain for long-term gain?We
0:35:01 > 0:35:07are joined by the shadow Brexit secretary, Kier Starmer. Welcome.
0:35:07 > 0:35:10Should the PMB congratulated?It is good there has been progress. That
0:35:10 > 0:35:14has come a bit later than we thought but it is progress and it is
0:35:14 > 0:35:17important that we put the deadline next week because if that had been
0:35:17 > 0:35:21missed, there was going to be another three months until we got
0:35:21 > 0:35:24that deadline and we do need to move on. About the next stage, most
0:35:24 > 0:35:29importantly transitional measures, because businesses around the
0:35:29 > 0:35:33country are all saying, we need to know that there will be transitional
0:35:33 > 0:35:36measures and they will be on the same terms as now, and that is a
0:35:36 > 0:35:40debate that should have started in October, frankly. It needs to start
0:35:40 > 0:35:44straightaway. It is good that we have got to this stage.When are we
0:35:44 > 0:35:47going to hear from Jeremy Corbyn, the leader of the Labour Party, on
0:35:47 > 0:35:51this very important moment in Britain possible constitutional
0:35:51 > 0:35:56history?Jeremy dealt with Brexit PMQs this week.But today an
0:35:56 > 0:36:00agreement has been reached. Wouldn't you expect to hear from Jeremy
0:36:00 > 0:36:03Corbyn?Jeremy is a Geneva and we have a statement out within half an
0:36:03 > 0:36:07hour of the developments within Brussels. I've done various bits of
0:36:07 > 0:36:12media this morning and will do various more. I hope that is putting
0:36:12 > 0:36:15across our message.Let's try to get to what your messages because you
0:36:15 > 0:36:19want to retain the benefits of the single market as closely as
0:36:19 > 0:36:23possible. Isn't the best way of retaining the benefits of the single
0:36:23 > 0:36:27market staying in the single market? Well, this question of staying in
0:36:27 > 0:36:31needs to be dealt with and we haven't really dealt with it. At the
0:36:31 > 0:36:35moment we are an EU member and as an EU member, we are in the single
0:36:35 > 0:36:40market. When we leave, we then have to strike a new agreement with the
0:36:40 > 0:36:45EU. We are not staying in, you have got to do something positive so
0:36:45 > 0:36:50we've got to reach an agreement. We are saying, reach an agreement that
0:36:50 > 0:36:54delivers the benefits of the single market so we can participate...The
0:36:54 > 0:36:58EU aren't going to give us a deal where we keep all the benefits of a
0:36:58 > 0:37:01single market without the four freedoms so, as I say, if you want
0:37:01 > 0:37:05to retain the benefits of the single market in the way that Labour has
0:37:05 > 0:37:09described, you need to stay in the single market.There was no question
0:37:09 > 0:37:17of staying in.That is off the table?I really don't want to lose
0:37:17 > 0:37:23it, the clarity of this. We are in the single market as an EU member.
0:37:23 > 0:37:27If we are to fully participate in the single market in the future, we
0:37:27 > 0:37:30need to strike an agreement, a treaty with the EU, going forward.
0:37:30 > 0:37:35That is what Norway did 24 years ago, we will have to do a 21st
0:37:35 > 0:37:41century version of that. That have to be negotiated but in the
0:37:41 > 0:37:45meantime, transitional, we stay in because that is something available
0:37:45 > 0:37:48to us under Article 50 but after that, strike a new agreement that
0:37:48 > 0:37:52allows us to participate fully in the single market. That is what we
0:37:52 > 0:37:56want to achieve and we want to achieve it because it makes sense
0:37:56 > 0:37:59for business. Or businesses want to trade successfully in the future as
0:37:59 > 0:38:03they have in the past. Will it be a difficult negotiation? You bet it
0:38:03 > 0:38:15will. Is it worth having?Yes, it is. And I clarify, because your
0:38:15 > 0:38:18colleague Jenny Chapman was sitting where you are and said to me a few
0:38:18 > 0:38:21days ago that the issue of staying in the customs union should be left
0:38:21 > 0:38:24on the table.The customs union is difficult.I need to clarify it for
0:38:24 > 0:38:26viewers who may be thinking, like Chuka Umunna has just said, he would
0:38:26 > 0:38:30like to hear you say that we are staying unmissable market -- in the
0:38:30 > 0:38:33single market and some of the rhetoric from Labour implies that is
0:38:33 > 0:38:37what you want to do but you have said it is off the table. Our
0:38:37 > 0:38:42current membership of the single market is on or off the table?The
0:38:42 > 0:38:45single market and Customs union are two different things and our
0:38:45 > 0:38:48position is we want to retain the benefits both of them and that all
0:38:48 > 0:38:52options should be the table. If we are to retain the option of fully
0:38:52 > 0:38:56but as a leading the single market, we have to strike an agreement with
0:38:56 > 0:39:00the EU to get that and that is what we need to do. At the moment we are
0:39:00 > 0:39:06an EU member. Chukka and I want the same outcome, which is the then if
0:39:06 > 0:39:10it of the single market and customs union. And talking about how we get
0:39:10 > 0:39:15it.While we were talking, Jeremy Corbyn has been speaking to the
0:39:15 > 0:39:19United Nations in Geneva. Is subject, Britain's place in the
0:39:19 > 0:39:22world after Brexit. Let's listen to the Labour leader speaking a short
0:39:22 > 0:39:26while ago.My party stands for a completely different future when we
0:39:26 > 0:39:32leave the EU, drawing on the best of the internationalist traditions of
0:39:32 > 0:39:40the Labour movement and of our country. We want to see a close and
0:39:40 > 0:39:44cooperative relationship with our European neighbours outside the
0:39:44 > 0:39:50European Union, based on solidarity, as well as mutual benefit and fair
0:39:50 > 0:39:58trade, along with a wider, proactive internationalism across the globe.
0:39:58 > 0:40:02Let's get onto the customs union. That is still on the table. Yes.
0:40:02 > 0:40:06Let's just step back and see what we're trying to achieve. In Northern
0:40:06 > 0:40:11Ireland, if you are to avoid a hard border, whether it is your first all
0:40:11 > 0:40:14fallback position, you're going to have to have alignment north to
0:40:14 > 0:40:18south. It is the only way. I went to Norway and Sweden to look at the
0:40:18 > 0:40:22border between those two countries. It is a hard border, there is
0:40:22 > 0:40:27infrastructure, you have to stop and be checked.The DUP said they don't
0:40:27 > 0:40:30want Northern Ireland to be treated separately in any way to other parts
0:40:30 > 0:40:34of the UK.And therefore if you have alignment north to south in Northern
0:40:34 > 0:40:39Ireland, between a country that has left the EU, in the future, and a
0:40:39 > 0:40:41country that is in it, you have aligned with the EU for the purposes
0:40:41 > 0:40:46of bulb Island, if you then a line across the UK, which you have to do
0:40:46 > 0:40:50because we need a UK wide agreement, you have therefore created alignment
0:40:50 > 0:40:57and playing by the same rules, the same standards in future. That is a
0:40:57 > 0:41:00good thing. It is a good thing because it means we can trade in the
0:41:00 > 0:41:03future with our European colleagues as successfully as we can now and
0:41:03 > 0:41:09that is a huge goal that we should all be aiming for.Explained to us
0:41:09 > 0:41:13how Labour's policy on migration and integration would work, because in
0:41:13 > 0:41:18the manifesto it said, freedom of movement will end when Britain
0:41:18 > 0:41:25leaves the EU. And that is still the case. So during a transition period,
0:41:25 > 0:41:29will freedom of movement... You would like to see freedom of
0:41:29 > 0:41:33movement continue?Yes. What we've said is, we will not reach the final
0:41:33 > 0:41:37agreement with the EU by March 2019, therefore pennies to be a
0:41:37 > 0:41:41transitional period. That should be on the same terms as now, which
0:41:41 > 0:41:46means in the customs union, in a single market with European Court of
0:41:46 > 0:41:49Justice and with freedom of movement until we reach the final agreement.
0:41:49 > 0:41:53When we reach the final agreement, that will be the new treaty, the
0:41:53 > 0:41:5721st century treaty, if we get this right, that will, I hope, deliver
0:41:57 > 0:42:00the benefits of the customs union and the single market. That is what
0:42:00 > 0:42:07we are aiming for.Polly?Keir Starmer is a lawyer and I think
0:42:07 > 0:42:09sometimes people misunderstand the difference between technically being
0:42:09 > 0:42:15in the single market and actually being on the same terms as the
0:42:15 > 0:42:18single market. I'm not sure it makes very much difference. What matters
0:42:18 > 0:42:22is that we get exactly the same trade agreement, single market and
0:42:22 > 0:42:27customs union, as we have noted that is what matters to the DUP and for
0:42:27 > 0:42:32the border. There is no way we can have a soft border unless we have an
0:42:32 > 0:42:36almost identical system to now. Which means in a sense that the
0:42:36 > 0:42:40extreme Brexiteers don't get what they want.Camilla, what would you
0:42:40 > 0:42:44let your readers think of that?I'm confused. I know you've tried to
0:42:44 > 0:42:47explain as a number of times, Keir
0:42:47 > 0:42:47confused. I know you've tried to explain as a number of times, Keir,
0:42:47 > 0:42:53but I think people are confused with trying to mirror single market and
0:42:53 > 0:42:59customs union membership but not being in it but maybe being in it a
0:42:59 > 0:43:01bit. People often say Brexiteers don't know what they were voting
0:43:01 > 0:43:06for. Chukka said it earlier. How would he know? He has never been a
0:43:06 > 0:43:11Brexiteer. Brexiteers voted to maintain control of our legal
0:43:11 > 0:43:13system, to control immigration, to have free trading partnerships with
0:43:13 > 0:43:17the rest of the world and to move forward in that brave new future.
0:43:17 > 0:43:20What you are both suggesting is a fudge and is not what the British
0:43:20 > 0:43:25public voted for.There are two bits of this. There is the referendum and
0:43:25 > 0:43:30what is the future relationship with the EU going to be? I don't think
0:43:30 > 0:43:34anybody voted either way to damage our trading relationship with the EU
0:43:34 > 0:43:38and if we don't stay aligned, if we don't have the benefits of the
0:43:38 > 0:43:42single market and customs union, if we haven't got a customs union
0:43:42 > 0:43:46arrangement, if we are not fully but as a leading unmissable market, it
0:43:46 > 0:43:51will damage our trade with the EU. I haven't met anybody who voted Leave
0:43:51 > 0:43:56who said, "I was voting to damage our trade with the EU". Unless you
0:43:56 > 0:44:00stay aligned and you are participating fully in the single
0:44:00 > 0:44:06market... That is why this is so important. In the end, maybe it is
0:44:06 > 0:44:09overly lawyer like. We need a set of arrangements delivering in a way
0:44:09 > 0:44:14they deliver now because that is the only way to preserve trade of the
0:44:14 > 0:44:17future and nobody voted to damage our ability to succeed in trading
0:44:17 > 0:44:21with the EU in the future. We need to be clear about this because
0:44:21 > 0:44:25whatever this arrangement is, it is going to be the arrangement for
0:44:25 > 0:44:28decades to come and we need to get it right and make a big decision,
0:44:28 > 0:44:33which is, are we living in Europe is our major trading partner for the
0:44:33 > 0:44:40future or are we under other fancy that there is some of the group of
0:44:40 > 0:44:43countries out there?Remaining fully aligned with those customs and
0:44:43 > 0:44:46standards, we will in essence be taking some of the rules from the
0:44:46 > 0:44:51European Union, which is not what Brexit meant.We will be on the same
0:44:51 > 0:44:55level playing field, we will be applying the same standards and so
0:44:55 > 0:44:58we should.And we will take rules from the European Union and will
0:44:58 > 0:45:04have no say in how they are set out. Who wants to reduce rights at work?
0:45:04 > 0:45:08Who wants less rights for environmental protection?How are
0:45:08 > 0:45:14you taking away from the trade union movement by saying that rights at
0:45:14 > 0:45:19work or you construct?Those who want to divert those on lower
0:45:19 > 0:45:22standards.You can't possibly be saying is a labourer but it is only
0:45:22 > 0:45:25the EU that attributes rights at work. What are you saying about your
0:45:25 > 0:45:28own trade union movement?The social chapter had to be fought for and
0:45:28 > 0:45:32fought for and the Tories kept us out of it and then Labour got us in.
0:45:32 > 0:45:36Nobody is saying it was going to be taken away. It was new rights that
0:45:36 > 0:45:42came from Europe.To suggest we would submit are at works' rights as
0:45:42 > 0:45:47a result of leaving the EU...It is not a question of where they came
0:45:47 > 0:45:51from. The basic deal in Europe is, you get the huge advantage of the
0:45:51 > 0:45:54customs union and single market so long as you are on a level playing
0:45:54 > 0:45:57field and so it is not where the rights came from, it is whether we
0:45:57 > 0:46:01have the same standards across Europe. If you have the same
0:46:01 > 0:46:05standards you can continue to trade successfully into the future. If you
0:46:05 > 0:46:10don't, you can't.
0:46:10 > 0:46:15Will freedom of movement end when we leave?It will have to change, the
0:46:15 > 0:46:18Labour Party has been clear about that. It's a matter for the
0:46:18 > 0:46:23negotiations. We need to think about what immigration rules we want to.
0:46:23 > 0:46:28How will it change? Will it actually end?Yes, because once we leave the
0:46:28 > 0:46:32EU the rule about freedom of movement goes. We've got to draft
0:46:32 > 0:46:36immigration rules then. That is what we are expecting, and immigration
0:46:36 > 0:46:42Bill coming down the track from the government. Once we leave those
0:46:42 > 0:46:45rules are gone and we've got to craft them in our own legislation.
0:46:45 > 0:46:48You accept we won't have the access to the single market in the way we
0:46:48 > 0:46:57have it now as a member?That the depends on the negotiations.So its
0:46:57 > 0:47:01cake and eat it?Know it's not what he would start negotiations by
0:47:01 > 0:47:03saying please drop my arm off because I want to be worse off than
0:47:03 > 0:47:08I am now? Of course you start off by saying we want the benefits and a
0:47:08 > 0:47:13model that works for the 21st century and discussion of freedom of
0:47:13 > 0:47:16movement. Europe has changed over the years, we haven't established
0:47:16 > 0:47:20precisely what rules we want an immigration. To throw that away
0:47:20 > 0:47:26before we start means we would damage our trade with Europe and I
0:47:26 > 0:47:28don't think anybody voted for that. Thank you.
0:47:28 > 0:47:30As we've been saying, the sticking point which caused
0:47:30 > 0:47:33the Brexit negotiations to collapse at the beginning of the week
0:47:33 > 0:47:35was the status of the Irish border.
0:47:35 > 0:47:37So has that been resolved to the satisfaction of both
0:47:37 > 0:47:39Northern Ireland's DUP and the Irish government?
0:47:39 > 0:47:41Here's the Irish Taoiseach Leo Varadkar and the
0:47:41 > 0:47:44DUP's Arelene Foster.
0:47:44 > 0:47:47We have achieved all that we set out to achieve in phase one
0:47:47 > 0:47:50of these negotiations.
0:47:50 > 0:47:51We have the assurances and guarantees we need
0:47:51 > 0:47:53from the United Kingdom, and support for them
0:47:53 > 0:48:01from the European Union.
0:48:01 > 0:48:04I'm satisfied that sufficient progress has now been made
0:48:04 > 0:48:05on the Irish issues.
0:48:05 > 0:48:07The parameters have been set, and they are good.
0:48:07 > 0:48:10Now we can move on to work out the detail of what has been agreed
0:48:10 > 0:48:13to talk about the transition phase, free trade, and the new relationship
0:48:13 > 0:48:19between the EU and the UK.
0:48:19 > 0:48:21We believe there have been six substantive changes,
0:48:21 > 0:48:24and we're pleased to see those changes, because for me it means
0:48:24 > 0:48:30that there is no red line down the Irish Sea.
0:48:30 > 0:48:32We have the very clear confirmation that the entirety
0:48:32 > 0:48:36of the United Kingdom is leaving the European Union,
0:48:36 > 0:48:38leaving the single market, leaving the customs union,
0:48:38 > 0:48:40and I think that's a very important statement to have.
0:48:40 > 0:48:42It's also vitally important, of course, that the integrity
0:48:42 > 0:48:48of the United Kingdom was kept in place.
0:48:48 > 0:48:50But there are still matters there that we would have liked
0:48:50 > 0:48:57to have seen clarified.
0:48:57 > 0:48:58We ran out of time, essentially.
0:48:58 > 0:49:02We think that we needed to go back again and talk about those matters.
0:49:02 > 0:49:03I'm joined now by Christopher Montgomery who,
0:49:03 > 0:49:06although a Tory, was the DUP's Chief of Staff in Westminster
0:49:06 > 0:49:11until earlier this year.
0:49:11 > 0:49:17Welcome to The Daily Politics. Did the DUP caving in the end?This
0:49:17 > 0:49:20wasn't about the DUP. This is the thing people keep getting wrong.
0:49:20 > 0:49:23Everything that should have happened on Monday but have happened today
0:49:23 > 0:49:28was about one thing, getting the Irish Republic off the hook of Leo
0:49:28 > 0:49:32Varadkar's extraordinary irresponsible pre-election rhetoric
0:49:32 > 0:49:40had got them on. As recently as a fortnight ago, the position of the
0:49:40 > 0:49:42Republic was that Northern Ireland should stay in the customs union,
0:49:42 > 0:49:48the single market. Everything that has happened today should be legally
0:49:48 > 0:49:52enshrined otherwise there would be a veto. None of these things have
0:49:52 > 0:49:56happened, they had disappeared like tears in the rain.Why did the DUP
0:49:56 > 0:50:01threatened to walk?What seems to have happened on Monday was trying
0:50:01 > 0:50:10to do two things. In Brussels it seems as if they were trying to make
0:50:10 > 0:50:15the case there should be UK wide alignment and various areas of the
0:50:15 > 0:50:19economy with EU standards. This wasn't something that the Cabinet
0:50:19 > 0:50:27knew that they were necessarily going to go and do. There was a
0:50:27 > 0:50:45tweet which inaccurately surmised... It sends a signal to people...You
0:50:45 > 0:50:50are saying it was one tweet and otherwise everything would have gone
0:50:50 > 0:50:56smoothly.You've got to put some degree of blame on Number 10. You've
0:50:56 > 0:50:59got to put some blame on the unionists were not having the
0:50:59 > 0:51:03relationship with Number 10 in a more high functioning fashion.So
0:51:03 > 0:51:08nothing has really changed, so why have the DUP agree to it?It was
0:51:08 > 0:51:11utterly meaningless. The words that have been agreed to work complete
0:51:11 > 0:51:16spoof. They were a device to allow the republic to retreat from the
0:51:16 > 0:51:19excessive rhetoric they had engaged in. The things they claimed they
0:51:19 > 0:51:24want, they haven't got. The Irish Republic was the last country in the
0:51:24 > 0:51:32EU 27 who would ever have...We will never know of course. They don't
0:51:32 > 0:51:36sound very happy even now, the DUP. Arlene Foster seemed to be saying it
0:51:36 > 0:51:43in sorrow rather than anger and Sammy Wilson from the DUP has said
0:51:43 > 0:51:48this is all conditional and we aren't completely signed up to it.
0:51:48 > 0:51:51At any point the DUP could say we are withdrawing our support.That's
0:51:51 > 0:51:57not just the DUP's position. The British government's position is
0:51:57 > 0:52:01nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. We haven't pivoted into
0:52:01 > 0:52:07phase two. There was a mythical Irish veto in phase one, it is
0:52:07 > 0:52:13disappeared.One could argue the threat worked.To get what?Polly
0:52:13 > 0:52:17Toynbee, has there been a substantive change between what was
0:52:17 > 0:52:22in that draft text that seem to upset Arlene Foster and the DUP so
0:52:22 > 0:52:26much, regulatory alignment, and what we have now which means the UK will
0:52:26 > 0:52:31Act in its entirety, there will be no special arrangements.I think
0:52:31 > 0:52:35there has been a big change. The DUP were right to say no hard border and
0:52:35 > 0:52:40no border on the sea, do not divide us from the rest of the UK. The only
0:52:40 > 0:52:45thing that's not the about the DUP position is why did they ever vote
0:52:45 > 0:52:50for Brexit in the first place. The majority in Northern Ireland were
0:52:50 > 0:52:58against Brexit.I hate interop...If they had said they were for staying
0:52:58 > 0:53:03in the EU and customs union and single market it would all make
0:53:03 > 0:53:11sense, but the DUP are very contrary.They are Unionists. The
0:53:11 > 0:53:17union voted for Brexit. There wasn't a referendum in Northern Ireland on
0:53:17 > 0:53:25whether Northern Ireland should leave, it was the same referendum.
0:53:25 > 0:53:32In terms of looking ahead, Sammy Wilson has also said "We need to be
0:53:32 > 0:53:36fully involved in those talks to void the hiccup we've had this
0:53:36 > 0:53:47week". Should they be fairly across every eye that has been dotted?
0:53:47 > 0:53:52Absolutely.The DUP is much more important than people might like to
0:53:52 > 0:53:57believe, it is the tail wagging the dog?The DUP has been important and
0:53:57 > 0:53:59earlier in the week Downing Street were briefing it wasn't an issue
0:53:59 > 0:54:04with the DUP but an issue with Leo Varadkar having seemingly overplayed
0:54:04 > 0:54:11his hand, perhaps with Brussels behind being the master puppeteer.
0:54:11 > 0:54:17Of course they've changed the wording.I don't quite agree. Fine
0:54:17 > 0:54:22Gael have gone up 5% in the polls. You've got to understand the Irish
0:54:22 > 0:54:27Republic has an attitude towards the UK which is chippy. If you're
0:54:27 > 0:54:37battering the Brits, it plays well. Let's leave it there. If like me you
0:54:37 > 0:54:47have left the Christmas shopping to the last year, the Vladimir Putin
0:54:47 > 0:54:542018 calendar is out now.
0:54:54 > 0:55:01There are plenty of snaps of Mr Putin in action poses. Mr July is my
0:55:01 > 0:55:04favourite and according to the Kremlin it is flying off the shelves
0:55:04 > 0:55:11in Britain. We've been unable to find any shops in the UK stocking
0:55:11 > 0:55:18the calendar and online sales have been limited.
0:55:18 > 0:55:23And I'm joined now by Mary Dejevsky, a columnist for the Guardian.
0:55:23 > 0:55:29Why are they saying these are selling like hot cakes?I know you
0:55:29 > 0:55:34are seeing a great conspiracy and fake ease. I would actually question
0:55:34 > 0:55:39that because I was looking around today to see about Putin calendars.
0:55:39 > 0:55:44There's plenty of them online. You can get them from all over including
0:55:44 > 0:55:55the spectacular one up there you had with a cheetah. The Putin calendar
0:55:55 > 0:55:59has become a sort of set piece at the end of the year. The idea that
0:55:59 > 0:56:03over here it is a Kremlin sponsored operation, nothing could be further
0:56:03 > 0:56:05from the truth.
0:56:05 > 0:56:10You should think of it more in terms of the Jeremy Corbyn unofficial
0:56:10 > 0:56:16annual or whatever.LAUGHTER We've had that, it's true! How do people
0:56:16 > 0:56:22in the UK view stories like this?I don't think they have this idea that
0:56:22 > 0:56:31there is malign intent behind them. Are you sure?To be serious for a
0:56:31 > 0:56:37second, there is a big disconnect I find between establishment views and
0:56:37 > 0:56:41grassroots. Whenever I do phone-ins about Russia, then you get a
0:56:41 > 0:56:45completely different view from the top which says everything is
0:56:45 > 0:56:50dreadful, Putin is a dictator, demonising him all over. People ring
0:56:50 > 0:56:55in and say it's so unfair, it's so wrong, you have to see it from their
0:56:55 > 0:56:59point of view.One might say it's a bit sad to have a calendar of any
0:56:59 > 0:57:03world leader on your wall but why would anyone in Britain want to have
0:57:03 > 0:57:07one of Vladimir Putin?There's a bit of an alternative thing about it.
0:57:07 > 0:57:11It's not something probably that everyone is going to have on
0:57:11 > 0:57:20overall.Have you got one?I definitely want one!Are you going
0:57:20 > 0:57:25to get them feel stocking fillers?I think so, I think it's really funny.
0:57:25 > 0:57:31I think it's good for a secret Santa and anything beats Cliff Richard!
0:57:31 > 0:57:36Are you still with Cliff Richard?It never ceases to amaze us that he
0:57:36 > 0:57:42tops the chart of the most popular calendar every time.Do you think it
0:57:42 > 0:57:45will be popular here?It's got a rival. If I was betting on the rival
0:57:45 > 0:57:51that's the one I would take. There's Putin and dogsLAUGHTER
0:57:51 > 0:57:57that's the one I would take. There's Putin and dogsLAUGHTER.It includes
0:57:57 > 0:58:02a wonderful picture of him with his gigantic dog. This is supposed to
0:58:02 > 0:58:08give you the other view of Vladimir Putin.And being told the pictures
0:58:08 > 0:58:14in the calendar are rather old, they aren't very recent. They've been
0:58:14 > 0:58:17recycled, does that surprise you? That I don't know but there are
0:58:17 > 0:58:22probably only so many poses a president has time to strike.He
0:58:22 > 0:58:30manages it. Are you going to have that one as well?If I can find one.
0:58:30 > 0:58:35It could be a bestseller. I'm sure it really will be flying off the
0:58:35 > 0:58:37shelf.
0:58:37 > 0:58:38That's all for today.
0:58:38 > 0:58:42Thanks to my guests.
0:58:42 > 0:58:45This was almost a Brexit special, it has to be said.
0:58:45 > 0:58:47The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.
0:58:47 > 0:58:50Sarah Smith will be back on Sunday on BBC One at 11
0:58:50 > 0:58:52with the Sunday Politics, and I'll be back here
0:58:52 > 0:58:55on BBC Two on Monday at midday with more Daily Politics.
0:58:55 > 0:58:58Bye-bye.