0:00:37 > 0:00:47Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:48 > 0:00:55The Ayes to the right 309, the nose to the left, 205.
0:00:55 > 0:00:57Theresa May suffers her first commons defeat
0:00:57 > 0:00:58on the EU Withdrawal Bill.
0:00:58 > 0:01:00But what does the vote mean and does is imperil Brexit?
0:01:00 > 0:01:04The Prime Minister is on her way to Brussels to seal the deal
0:01:04 > 0:01:06she made last week which should allow the UK to move
0:01:06 > 0:01:07on to trade talks.
0:01:07 > 0:01:10But how damaged is her authority after last night's vote?
0:01:10 > 0:01:19He was the man who stabbed Boris Johnson in the front
0:01:19 > 0:01:24year's leadership contest - but is Michael Gove,
0:01:24 > 0:01:26perhaps the most ruthless man in British Politics, undergoing
0:01:26 > 0:01:28a David Cameron style makeover?
0:01:28 > 0:01:31And Jeremy Corbyn was awarded a peace prize last Friday -
0:01:31 > 0:01:33so why have the mainstream media not reported the Labour leader's
0:01:33 > 0:01:37accolade?
0:01:37 > 0:01:40All that in the next hour and with us for the whole
0:01:40 > 0:01:41of the programme today, Gisela Stuart.
0:01:41 > 0:01:45And we don't want to be accused of censoring this former MP's
0:01:45 > 0:01:49numerous accolades.
0:01:49 > 0:01:51She has been awarded a Bachelor of Law degree
0:01:51 > 0:01:57from the University of London, a business studies qualification
0:01:57 > 0:02:04from Manchester Polytechnic,
0:02:04 > 0:02:06and is a former co-chair of Vote Leave.
0:02:06 > 0:02:09But she didn't, I'm afraid - according to Wikipedia at least -
0:02:09 > 0:02:10complete her PhD.
0:02:10 > 0:02:12Never mind - you are still welcome on the programme.
0:02:12 > 0:02:16I put it into law, I did not have to!You are welcome on the
0:02:16 > 0:02:19programme.
0:02:19 > 0:02:22So it was a bruising night for the Government last night.
0:02:22 > 0:02:23The Prime Minister's authority diminished,
0:02:23 > 0:02:26certainly, but what does it all mean for Brexit?
0:02:26 > 0:02:28Last night's dramatic defeat for Theresa May saw 11
0:02:28 > 0:02:30Conservative MPs vote against their government in support
0:02:30 > 0:02:32of Dominic Grieve's amendment, Labour whipped its MPs to vote
0:02:32 > 0:02:38in favour of the amendment too and only two of their MPs
0:02:38 > 0:02:39voted with the government against the amendment.
0:02:39 > 0:02:42The government ended up losing by 309 votes to 305.
0:02:42 > 0:02:45However, the bill still has a number of stages to pass in Parliament
0:02:45 > 0:02:47and the government could attempt to overturn the amendment
0:02:47 > 0:02:49when it has its report stage on January 16th.
0:02:49 > 0:02:53The amendment forms part of the EU Withdrawal Bill which ends
0:02:53 > 0:02:57the supremacy of EU law and copies all existing EU law into UK law.
0:02:57 > 0:03:02If it stands, the change to the bill means that Parliament is now
0:03:02 > 0:03:06guaranteed what the rebels have called "meaningful vote"
0:03:06 > 0:03:09on the Brexit deal.
0:03:09 > 0:03:10The government negotiates with the EU,
0:03:10 > 0:03:13so if they reject it, Theresa May could either ask the EU
0:03:13 > 0:03:15for more time to negotiate, or allow Britain to leave
0:03:15 > 0:03:19the EU without any deal.
0:03:19 > 0:03:21The rebel MPs' hope is that the amendment will concentrate
0:03:21 > 0:03:23the minds of Theresa May and Brexit Secretary David Davis,
0:03:23 > 0:03:27who will now have to be more mindful of Parliament's views
0:03:27 > 0:03:29when they negotiate the deal.
0:03:29 > 0:03:31Let's talk to the BBC's political editor, Laura Kuenssberg,
0:03:31 > 0:03:37who's in Brussels.
0:03:37 > 0:03:43Laura, hello. It was a big moment last night as the opposition parties
0:03:43 > 0:03:48cheered, along with the rebels. Theresa May defeated on her own
0:03:48 > 0:03:54terms over Brexit, but materially, what has changed over Brexit?You
0:03:54 > 0:04:00are right. It was a huge moment last night, and as MPs were cramming back
0:04:00 > 0:04:05for the results, there was a message that the government had one. They
0:04:05 > 0:04:08thought the rebels had not succeeded and with all their work with the
0:04:08 > 0:04:13opposition parties that they had not managed to beat Theresa May. But
0:04:13 > 0:04:17when the tellers arrived, they did a little shuffle in the chamber and
0:04:17 > 0:04:21the opposition benches erupted into cheers and they had done what they
0:04:21 > 0:04:25wanted and for the first time had beaten Theresa May on her own
0:04:25 > 0:04:29business in the Commons. In terms of what it means, nobody is sure
0:04:29 > 0:04:40technically. First of all, when you talk to the rebels about what they
0:04:40 > 0:04:48want, there is a spectrum of opinion. And then with line by line
0:04:48 > 0:05:00on the Brexit deal, others see it as a surprise. Do they want a vote that
0:05:00 > 0:05:04could sink the deal and sink the government, and I think in the last
0:05:04 > 0:05:07few weeks they have not always given the fullest answers to what they are
0:05:07 > 0:05:11trying to achieve. The reason for that is inside the coalition the
0:05:11 > 0:05:15rebels alliance as it has become known, somewhat quite different
0:05:15 > 0:05:21things.Does it we can Theresa May's hand in the negotiations in Brussels
0:05:21 > 0:05:26where you are?It will be embarrassed and for her to turn up
0:05:26 > 0:05:30here this morning having been beaten by her inside. It is not as bad as
0:05:30 > 0:05:34the summit when she turned up having thrown away her majority in the last
0:05:34 > 0:05:40election result. Here in Brussels since the election, they have been
0:05:40 > 0:05:44worried about whether or not Theresa May can last. Can they trust what
0:05:44 > 0:05:48she tells them she will be able to do when they sit with her in the
0:05:48 > 0:05:53privacy of their leaders conversations? But I think while
0:05:53 > 0:05:58this has been a big drama, no question, it has not necessarily
0:05:58 > 0:06:02been a big disaster. We're not here at the beginning of months and
0:06:02 > 0:06:07months of defeat after defeat, but certainly, there is a question, will
0:06:07 > 0:06:10Theresa May have to think a bit more about come to my thing before
0:06:10 > 0:06:23pushing things to a vote which might end in defeat. Let's talk about the
0:06:23 > 0:06:25Labour Brexiteers.There are some who think that those in the Labour
0:06:25 > 0:06:28Party who support Brexit and had always supported Brexit, had voted
0:06:28 > 0:06:30with the government in large numbers, then Theresa May would not
0:06:30 > 0:06:37have been defeated. Why in the end did they vote with their party?I
0:06:37 > 0:06:44understand that MPs like Gisela Stuart who is with you today, work
0:06:44 > 0:06:47seriously ringing around other Labour Brexiteers persuading them to
0:06:47 > 0:06:51stay onside. The number of votes in that which is normally nine or ten
0:06:51 > 0:06:55went down to two or three. You're right, if they had stuck with
0:06:55 > 0:06:58project Brexit and voted with the government then Theresa May would
0:06:58 > 0:07:03not have lost. But I think given it is clear for a while but numbers are
0:07:03 > 0:07:07so tight, then frankly the temptation of beating the government
0:07:07 > 0:07:11was more important to some MPs like Dennis Kimetto, than it was too
0:07:11 > 0:07:16trying to stay shackled to the Brexit legislation. -- Dennis
0:07:16 > 0:07:20Skinner. But the movement will be important in the next couple of
0:07:20 > 0:07:27weeks. What will happen about the Brexit date next week? So the naked
0:07:27 > 0:07:34power plays between the two parties, do they trump with ease on Brexit?
0:07:34 > 0:07:39Last week we saw the house voting on Brexit lines rather than party lines
0:07:39 > 0:07:44and that is something that may solidify. But other people say does
0:07:44 > 0:07:49not make a big difference, it does not add up to much more than a hill
0:07:49 > 0:07:55of beans. Frankly, we do not know yet.Thank you, Laura Kuenssberg.
0:07:55 > 0:08:06So, you were ringing round Labour Brexiteers, why did you do that?I
0:08:06 > 0:08:10confess to handful of texts rather than ringing round. Party loyalty,
0:08:10 > 0:08:14you are Labour MP and you get the chance of defeating a Tory
0:08:14 > 0:08:22government and I think that is the tribalism of our party affiliation.
0:08:22 > 0:08:26Were you disappointed that they did not vote for Brexit?I think just
0:08:26 > 0:08:30that amendment I would have voted with the government on that one, but
0:08:30 > 0:08:38two of them did. Others held their powder. The key thing is that
0:08:38 > 0:08:42legislation is required in order to allow us to exit properly and what
0:08:42 > 0:08:49last night did made that process a little more complicated.White?
0:08:49 > 0:08:53Because there will be debates on this article nine, the statutory
0:08:53 > 0:09:00powers which according to a vote you need the primary one before the
0:09:00 > 0:09:04secondary one. Then you have not only Article 50, the clear
0:09:04 > 0:09:08commitment that we are leaving, but then you have a commission which is
0:09:08 > 0:09:12coming. The key thing for me to say is to all my colleagues, and
0:09:12 > 0:09:16remember the referendum mandate was that we are leaving, you're quite
0:09:16 > 0:09:19right to have parliamentary scrutiny, but now remain true to
0:09:19 > 0:09:26your word which is you have accept it that are leaving and you just
0:09:26 > 0:09:29want to propose it rather than make it a vehicle of stopping Brexit
0:09:29 > 0:09:31altogether.
0:09:31 > 0:09:34The vote came at about quarter past seven last night after several
0:09:34 > 0:09:36hours of heated debate in the Common's chamber.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38Let's just get a flavour of those exchanges.
0:09:38 > 0:09:41Parliament has to be able to have a say in this process
0:09:41 > 0:09:43and we should trust parliament to be mature and be responsible.
0:09:43 > 0:09:46There are a lot of members opposite who said, actually,
0:09:46 > 0:09:49if we let Parliament have a vote on Article 50 the sky's
0:09:49 > 0:09:50going fall in.
0:09:50 > 0:09:53If the treaty isn't right in the eyes of this Parliament then
0:09:53 > 0:09:55a couple of months could turn into a couple of years
0:09:55 > 0:09:58and indeed in some cases some people would like it to be
0:09:58 > 0:09:59a couple of decades.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02And when she talks therefore for about a meaningful vote,
0:10:02 > 0:10:04what about the meaningful vote of the people of this
0:10:04 > 0:10:07country who last June voted to leave the European Union?
0:10:07 > 0:10:11It's not a question I may say to my desperately paranoid
0:10:11 > 0:10:16Eurosceptic friends, that somehow I am trying in some
0:10:16 > 0:10:20surreptitious Remainer way to put a spoke in the wheels of the fast
0:10:20 > 0:10:22progress of the United Kingdom towards the destination
0:10:22 > 0:10:27to which we are going.
0:10:27 > 0:10:30When he says that Leavers didn't know what they were voting for,
0:10:30 > 0:10:32he does risk sounding very condescending because we knew
0:10:32 > 0:10:35exactly what we were voting for.
0:10:35 > 0:10:39The problem with my right honourable and learned friends amendment
0:10:39 > 0:10:42is that it could be and no doubt is designed to be used
0:10:42 > 0:10:48to try to overturn and frustrate that meaningful vote.
0:10:48 > 0:10:49Continue the discussions.
0:10:49 > 0:10:50This is...
0:10:50 > 0:10:51Will the honourable gentleman give way?
0:10:51 > 0:10:54I keep - no I'm not going to give way.
0:10:54 > 0:10:56Give way.
0:10:56 > 0:10:58I keep hearing my right honourable friend saying,
0:10:58 > 0:11:00it's too late, it's too late, it's too late.
0:11:00 > 0:11:01I have never said...
0:11:01 > 0:11:03Point of order.
0:11:03 > 0:11:06I've heard you say that.
0:11:06 > 0:11:09There is a time for everybody to stand up and be counted,
0:11:09 > 0:11:12as Churchill said, he's a good party man, he puts the party before
0:11:12 > 0:11:14himself and the country before his party and that's
0:11:14 > 0:11:17what I intend to do.
0:11:17 > 0:11:22CHEERING.
0:11:22 > 0:11:27I think we all want to hear the result!
0:11:27 > 0:11:31The ayes to the right, 309.
0:11:31 > 0:11:33The noes to the left, 305.
0:11:33 > 0:11:37CHEERING
0:11:37 > 0:11:40We're joined now by one of those Conservative MPs who helped defeat
0:11:40 > 0:11:48the Government last night, Jonathan Djanogly.
0:11:48 > 0:11:52Are you proud of yourself, of what you have done?I think we did the
0:11:52 > 0:11:56right thing. Looking at those snippets, where there is a lot of
0:11:56 > 0:12:03heat being generated, this was not about defeating the government.
0:12:03 > 0:12:07Well, it was, you defeated the government.It was not about
0:12:07 > 0:12:11undermining the Prime Minister's negotiations? It was not about
0:12:11 > 0:12:15stopping my hindering the Brexit process, which the vast majority of
0:12:15 > 0:12:21people want to see happen. What this was about was saying that in some
0:12:21 > 0:12:25cases parliamentary sovereignty must be respected. When we look at these
0:12:25 > 0:12:32Henry VIII powers, which give a huge power to government, to basically do
0:12:32 > 0:12:36whatever they want, but actually, before those are used, there must be
0:12:36 > 0:12:41a vote in the House of Commons on a bill which will look at the terms on
0:12:41 > 0:12:45which we leave. This by the way is the biggest decision we have taken
0:12:45 > 0:12:50since the war. Parliament should look at these issues?There were a
0:12:50 > 0:12:52series of assurances given by ministers and some last-minute
0:12:52 > 0:12:56concessions over the issue of a meaningful vote on Parliament. Do
0:12:56 > 0:13:06you not trust your own government and Theresa May an David Davis to do
0:13:06 > 0:13:09the right thing?I think one of the things to come out of this process,
0:13:09 > 0:13:12because I gave my intentions to the government about three months ago,
0:13:12 > 0:13:15one of the things that has come out is that the government does need to
0:13:15 > 0:13:17engage in a more concerted and meaningful way than it has been
0:13:17 > 0:13:23doing. Again I say this is not about stopping Brexit. It is about looking
0:13:23 > 0:13:27at our Constitution. It is about looking at when ultimately powers
0:13:27 > 0:13:30are patridge from the European Parliament of UK Parliament, they
0:13:30 > 0:13:38are not done in a way which undermines our Constitution, it is
0:13:38 > 0:13:41about strengthening our Constitution.De think you have been
0:13:41 > 0:13:48ignored by the government?I think collectively voices have been
0:13:48 > 0:13:51ignored. Votes yesterday were not indicative of the upset in the
0:13:51 > 0:13:56party. You will find people who were Remainers, people who were extreme
0:13:56 > 0:14:00Brexiteers attacking clause nine and these Henry VIII powers and saying
0:14:00 > 0:14:06that in some cases that it should be scrapped altogether at report stage.
0:14:06 > 0:14:10And I do hope, and the reason for that is because the government have
0:14:10 > 0:14:13agreed to bring forward another bill where they probably will not need
0:14:13 > 0:14:18these powers. I think we need to stand back, left a bit of the heat
0:14:18 > 0:14:22go out and have a bit of discussion about the implications and how we
0:14:22 > 0:14:25will go forward.Let's have a look at the front page of today's's Daily
0:14:25 > 0:14:31Mail. You are there with your co-rebels, as I'm sure you have
0:14:31 > 0:14:37noticed, with the comment, proud of yourselves? Are you innocent or
0:14:37 > 0:14:41guilty of betrayal?There is a lot of heat at the moment. I don't think
0:14:41 > 0:14:46we are guilty of betrayal at all. We are going through a process. This is
0:14:46 > 0:14:56the committee stage of the bill. We still have the report stage, then it
0:14:56 > 0:14:59goes to the Lords. I would like to see the government engage some more.
0:14:59 > 0:15:07But having a look at the Daily Mail front page, this is the first time I
0:15:07 > 0:15:16have rebelled in 17 years.Have you just helped the opposition?
0:15:16 > 0:15:20No way whatsoever, icons lamented the Prime Minister and David Davis
0:15:20 > 0:15:22on the remarkable achievement of their phase one negotiations and
0:15:22 > 0:15:28they have a good platform going into phase two. Let me turn this around,
0:15:28 > 0:15:32let's just say, we had not amended the bill, the government came back
0:15:32 > 0:15:36with an option that would basically keep us in the customs union and the
0:15:36 > 0:15:39single market, keep freedom of movement and then lacked all those
0:15:39 > 0:15:45things through rather than taking it to Parliament? I don't think Gisela
0:15:45 > 0:15:54would be very happy. Parliament must have a say.Why did you read the
0:15:54 > 0:16:08desk? -- retweet this?I just thought it was hilarious, somebody
0:16:08 > 0:16:13taking an aggressive front page and making it a joke. Amongst all of the
0:16:13 > 0:16:15seriousness and you can see I do take this very seriously we must
0:16:15 > 0:16:19also stay a little light-hearted and I thought it captured the moment.
0:16:19 > 0:16:24And it is almost Christmas. Do you agree that you would have been very
0:16:24 > 0:16:27upset if there had been an attempt which Parliament was not able to
0:16:27 > 0:16:33stop the keep Britain in the single market and the customs union in
0:16:33 > 0:16:36perpetuity?In that case we would not have left the European Union.
0:16:36 > 0:16:44Can I disaggregated two arguments, there is no different level of
0:16:44 > 0:16:47legislation and it's a sequence of problems, getting the deal and
0:16:47 > 0:16:51getting it approved. Then the Henry VIII powers. The amount of Henry
0:16:51 > 0:16:58VIII powers in the 1972 European act are infinitely greater and I thought
0:16:58 > 0:17:02the proposals of sifting out and taking it step-by-step would be
0:17:02 > 0:17:07bringing back a whole lot of stuff which we have forgotten how to
0:17:07 > 0:17:10legislate on, the environment, agriculture, we have not debated on.
0:17:10 > 0:17:15I always thought Parliament would find a way of having a vote.Do you
0:17:15 > 0:17:20think Jonathan is trying to thwart Brexit?This is the test, they say
0:17:20 > 0:17:26they do not. One of my Labour colleagues in the Lords said on
0:17:26 > 0:17:30Twitter this is the first step for stopping Brexit and referred to it
0:17:30 > 0:17:34as the national betrayal bill. That means the nice I hear from the House
0:17:34 > 0:17:38of Lords are not very good. My challenge to you is that you now
0:17:38 > 0:17:42have two sure you are as good as your word.I cannot talk for a
0:17:42 > 0:17:47Labour peer but what I can say for my own point of view is that I
0:17:47 > 0:17:50accepted the referendum result. It's a question of leaving the European
0:17:50 > 0:17:53Union but in a way that does not destroy our own Constitution. I
0:17:53 > 0:17:59think the nub of this is are we really going to repatriate powers
0:17:59 > 0:18:03from the European Union in a way that gives those powers to the
0:18:03 > 0:18:07executive and cut out Parliament? Was that were people voted for who
0:18:07 > 0:18:14wanted to leave the European Union? I don't think so.Why has the wood
0:18:14 > 0:18:23have you been called Brexit in name only?I deny it, it is ridiculous.
0:18:23 > 0:18:30My personal position is I would like us to remain within the single
0:18:30 > 0:18:33market and possibly the customs union but I do not want to fetter
0:18:33 > 0:18:37the hand of the Prime Minister. She has to go out there, strike a fair
0:18:37 > 0:18:41deal and there will be negotiation and discussion and give and take and
0:18:41 > 0:18:44I don't want to fit her hand in any way and I think she has done very
0:18:44 > 0:18:51well.Do you trust that?If you would like the country to remain in
0:18:51 > 0:18:56the single market then we have lost control of our borders, the European
0:18:56 > 0:18:59Court of Justice. Of supremacy so then we have not left the European
0:18:59 > 0:19:03Union.We will have, Norway is not a member of the European Union that
0:19:03 > 0:19:08are a member of the single market. During the referendum campaign there
0:19:08 > 0:19:12were many people on the Brexit side who were arguing let's get out of
0:19:12 > 0:19:17the EU and just trade with Europe, stay in the single market. That's a
0:19:17 > 0:19:21consistent argument.So you would accept the supremacy of the European
0:19:21 > 0:19:27Court of Justice, automatic supremacy plus a free movement of
0:19:27 > 0:19:31Labour? Norway does not do that.But it does take rules from the European
0:19:31 > 0:19:38Court of Justice.They have a separate court.What about freedom
0:19:38 > 0:19:43of movement? Rowe again, without Switzerland, they took freedom of
0:19:43 > 0:19:54movement and it's an issue.If that is your idea of Brexit it is not an
0:19:54 > 0:19:57idea shared by millions of people who voted because they thought we
0:19:57 > 0:20:02would put an end to it.Can I add one aspect of freedom of movement?
0:20:02 > 0:20:06The idea of leaving the customs union is we can strike deals with
0:20:06 > 0:20:10third-party countries. India, Australia, New Zealand have already
0:20:10 > 0:20:14indicated they want to strike free trade agreement with us. The number
0:20:14 > 0:20:21one agenda item for them is a UK visas. So this idea that we leave
0:20:21 > 0:20:25the EU, we are not part of the single market, and we somehow don't
0:20:25 > 0:20:30have an immigration issue any more is simply untrue.You are
0:20:30 > 0:20:34misrepresenting this, the issue was that within the European Union you
0:20:34 > 0:20:40have got virtually half of our net migration automatic, what we are
0:20:40 > 0:20:44arguing is this Parliament decides what the entire immigration policy
0:20:44 > 0:20:49is.I have to stop and ask, will you vote against the motion to write the
0:20:49 > 0:20:54date of departure on the bill next week?The debate and that has
0:20:54 > 0:20:57happened and I spoke against it and I expect the government to make at
0:20:57 > 0:21:05concession on that.Should they just drop that?Well, the real date is
0:21:05 > 0:21:09the end of Parliament so I think there already is an end so I'll
0:21:09 > 0:21:14leave that to party management.We are just about to strike a deal
0:21:14 > 0:21:19three days before the date and we need a few more days, we should have
0:21:19 > 0:21:23that flexibility.They always strike a deal at two minutes to midnight,
0:21:23 > 0:21:29whenever midnight is.But you are going to stick to your guns?I will
0:21:29 > 0:21:34see how it develops. There are some 20 issues we have been debating and
0:21:34 > 0:21:37only one rebellion so far. I am hopeful we will have a good
0:21:37 > 0:21:41resolution on the date.Was it reasonable for the government to
0:21:41 > 0:21:46sack Stephen Hammond?That is a matter for the government.
0:21:46 > 0:21:48Now it's time for our daily quiz.
0:21:48 > 0:21:50And the question for today is - according to Facebook,
0:21:50 > 0:21:53what did an organisation with links to the Russian government
0:21:53 > 0:21:54spend just 73p promoting, according to Facebook?
0:21:54 > 0:21:55Was it the American Election?
0:21:55 > 0:21:56Brexit?
0:21:56 > 0:21:57This year's general election?
0:21:57 > 0:21:59Or Vodka?
0:21:59 > 0:22:01At the end of the show Gisela will hopefully give us
0:22:01 > 0:22:05the correct answer.
0:22:05 > 0:22:06As usual
0:22:10 > 0:22:14Now - he was described as having stabbed his rival for the Tory party
0:22:14 > 0:22:15leadership "in the front".
0:22:15 > 0:22:17When Michael Gove decided to stand against fellow Brexiteer,
0:22:17 > 0:22:19Boris Johnson, last year, prompting Mr Johnson
0:22:19 > 0:22:21to abort his bid for the top job, he cemented his reputation
0:22:21 > 0:22:23as the most ruthless politician in Westminster.
0:22:23 > 0:22:26But has a new softer, gentler - well - more cuddly side
0:22:26 > 0:22:28to Michael Gove emerged in recent months?
0:22:28 > 0:22:36Here's Elizabeth Glinka.
0:22:36 > 0:22:40From political assassin to pop cuddler, it's quite a
0:22:40 > 0:22:45transformation. In the aftermath of the EU referendum, having squashed
0:22:45 > 0:22:49the hopes and dreams of Boris Johnson Michael Gove had become a
0:22:49 > 0:22:53felon of almost pantomime proportions.You brought down David
0:22:53 > 0:22:56Cameron menu brought down Boris Johnson, some people are saying you
0:22:56 > 0:23:02are a political serial killer. Against the odds he is back,
0:23:02 > 0:23:05installed and championing all things bright and beautiful, all creatures
0:23:05 > 0:23:12great and small. A tactic borrowed perhaps from an old friend.This
0:23:12 > 0:23:14idea of green credentials are something from the David Cameron
0:23:14 > 0:23:19playbook, it is what they did when they were in opposition and David
0:23:19 > 0:23:23Cameron was trying to find a way to show his party was modernising, they
0:23:23 > 0:23:27had a slow kill in the local council elections which is vote blue, go
0:23:27 > 0:23:33green. He seems genuinely happy and part of that is back in Cabinet and
0:23:33 > 0:23:37he has a remarkable change in fortunes if you think back to the EU
0:23:37 > 0:23:42referendum.And it seems there is no issue too big or too small, in
0:23:42 > 0:23:45recent months the Environment Secretary have raided in rows over
0:23:45 > 0:23:50tree felling in Sheffield, supported introducing beavers, and legislated
0:23:50 > 0:23:55to protect elephants and it's not going unnoticed. Michael Gove, we
0:23:55 > 0:23:59have seen a firework display of activity. The comeback is quite
0:23:59 > 0:24:09staggering.I year ago he was reviled as a traitor and now here is
0:24:09 > 0:24:13as Environment Secretary showing the wider world that conservatives do
0:24:13 > 0:24:18actually care about the environment and doing it with tremendous brio
0:24:18 > 0:24:21and winning plaudits from all sorts of environmentalists. It's quite
0:24:21 > 0:24:28staggering. It has occurred partly because within the Cabinet there are
0:24:28 > 0:24:34very few rivals for attention.In a Parliament is set by Brexit wars
0:24:34 > 0:24:38fellow Conservative MPs seem to have jumped on board the charm offensive.
0:24:38 > 0:24:42This week even managing to coordinate their social media
0:24:42 > 0:24:46reactions to the BBC programme blue planet. Divided by almost everything
0:24:46 > 0:24:49else, Michael Gove seems to have hit on something the British public
0:24:49 > 0:24:51really can unite on.
0:24:51 > 0:24:53We're joined now by the Green Party's Jonathan Bartley
0:24:53 > 0:24:56and the Conservative MP, Henry Smith of the Conservative
0:24:56 > 0:24:59Animal Welfare Foundation.
0:24:59 > 0:25:04Welcome to both of you, Jonathan Bartley, are you pleased by Michael
0:25:04 > 0:25:09Gove's support for all things environmental?Credit where it is
0:25:09 > 0:25:13due, under no illusions it's a rebrand, what they have done on
0:25:13 > 0:25:18plastics, the consultation over tax on micro beads, phasing out coal
0:25:18 > 0:25:23power by hopefully 2025, these are steps, going from a two out of ten
0:25:23 > 0:25:28to four out of ten.Do you think it is genuine?I don't think you can
0:25:28 > 0:25:31take it as genuine when there is so much lacking around climate change
0:25:31 > 0:25:35which is the big issue. The biggest threat to the sea is climate change.
0:25:35 > 0:25:41Clean growth plan should have been a green print for the future and was a
0:25:41 > 0:25:45blueprint for underachievement. It will miss out on the fourth and
0:25:45 > 0:25:48fifth carbon budgets, still investment in fracking, no action to
0:25:48 > 0:25:54tackle airport expansion and the frequent flyers. This is a massive
0:25:54 > 0:26:00hole in the government agenda.When it comes to Michael Gove when did
0:26:00 > 0:26:05the conversion happen?We are seeing tangible measures coming forward in
0:26:05 > 0:26:08terms of policies, there is a new animal welfare Bill which was
0:26:08 > 0:26:13announced the other day which will increase sentences for cruelty up to
0:26:13 > 0:26:17five years. Jonathan has already been talking about the banning
0:26:17 > 0:26:23plastic micro beads to help save the ocean environment. The introduction
0:26:23 > 0:26:27of CCTV into slaughter houses to increase welfare is something I
0:26:27 > 0:26:30raised in Parliament a couple of years ago and I am pleased to see
0:26:30 > 0:26:36that as well. Recognising sentience in UK law which is stronger than the
0:26:36 > 0:26:42Article 13 of the...The government ran into trouble over that, is it
0:26:42 > 0:26:45that which is made ministers set up and think we need to at least
0:26:45 > 0:26:51appear, if not believe in things which are environmentally important
0:26:51 > 0:26:56to the public?I have been a co-chair of the all-party
0:26:56 > 0:26:59parliamentary animal welfare group for many years and I know many of
0:26:59 > 0:27:03these policies have been in train for some time. Maybe the
0:27:03 > 0:27:06presentation has improved in recent months and I think that is necessary
0:27:06 > 0:27:11but these are real, tangible policies which are coming through. I
0:27:11 > 0:27:14think we have seen more advancement in some environmental and animal
0:27:14 > 0:27:17protection policies in the last few months than we have seen in many
0:27:17 > 0:27:22years previously.Do not forget that was a U-turn from the government
0:27:22 > 0:27:27because of what Caroline Lucas dead on sentience. This is about public
0:27:27 > 0:27:31pressure, public pressure has been building for years, great NGO's
0:27:31 > 0:27:38doing great work. The government, these issues have been going up and
0:27:38 > 0:27:42up the agenda and they know they have to respond.But at the same
0:27:42 > 0:27:46time do you except there have been tangible changes and improvements to
0:27:46 > 0:27:49things like animal welfare?It does seem they are heading in the right
0:27:49 > 0:27:54direction but if you do not tackle climate change our oceans will be
0:27:54 > 0:27:58devastated, the coral reefs destroyed so the big question is not
0:27:58 > 0:28:02being addressed. It's like putting a broken arm in a sling but not
0:28:02 > 0:28:06putting a cast on it.What about when it comes to climate change, is
0:28:06 > 0:28:11it just rhetoric if a long-term targets in cutting carbon emissions
0:28:11 > 0:28:17will not be reached?Already this government is absolutely committed
0:28:17 > 0:28:19to the Paris agreement. The other day already the Prime Minister was
0:28:19 > 0:28:28in France to restate the importance of this country playing its part in
0:28:28 > 0:28:34ensuring carbon emissions are reduced and on sentience...The
0:28:34 > 0:28:37clean growth plan will not hit, even in the government plan which is
0:28:37 > 0:28:41supposed to be legally binding to meet those targets, the plan says it
0:28:41 > 0:28:48will not hit the fourth and fit budgets.I think this country is
0:28:48 > 0:28:55leading...But you except it will fail?I do not... We are heading
0:28:55 > 0:28:59very much in the right direction. There are huge challenges ahead but
0:28:59 > 0:29:03I think we have a real determination and I just wanted to come back on
0:29:03 > 0:29:08sentience. Let's be careful about what the Lisbon Treaty said on
0:29:08 > 0:29:11sentience, it only applied to EU law and the new animal welfare bill
0:29:11 > 0:29:17coming in will apply to all UK law across the board. And of course the
0:29:17 > 0:29:22EU Charter on animal sentience allowed bull-fighting, foie gras
0:29:22 > 0:29:26production, the single market means we cannot ban the live export of
0:29:26 > 0:29:33animals for slaughter or the importation of cruel products. Once
0:29:33 > 0:29:37we leave the single market, which I believe we should be doing, we will
0:29:37 > 0:29:43increase and will wear her standards.Do you believe that? This
0:29:43 > 0:29:47idea there are practices which are forced onto the UK by the European
0:29:47 > 0:29:51Union when it comes to animal welfare will be improved in
0:29:51 > 0:29:54post-Brexit Britain?By the governments own admission we will
0:29:54 > 0:30:02lose about a third of the environmental regulations.We will
0:30:02 > 0:30:06go further and will be free to do that.The government is failing on
0:30:06 > 0:30:10such of the big issue is how can we have confidence on the small issues?
0:30:10 > 0:30:14It is not failing at the moment when you cut carbon emissions, it is true
0:30:14 > 0:30:18if you look further into the future they will not hurt those targets...
0:30:18 > 0:30:23It is getting a whole new industry up and running, overriding local
0:30:23 > 0:30:26communities over fracking, it has just produced £2.3 billion by the
0:30:26 > 0:30:30Chancellor 's own admission to invest in North Sea oil and is not
0:30:30 > 0:30:33investing in home insulation which could cut through puberty. It goes
0:30:33 > 0:30:34on and on.
0:30:39 > 0:30:44You worked with Michael Gove and you know him, do you believe this
0:30:44 > 0:30:48commitment to protecting the environment is genuine?I do. I
0:30:48 > 0:30:53think what is telling is he is showing what is in his department,
0:30:53 > 0:30:59where he has a say as his Cabinet post, that Brexit does not need to
0:30:59 > 0:31:03paralyse government. Secretaries of state can actually start to use
0:31:03 > 0:31:11those newly gained powers, and the suggestion is that with some of the
0:31:11 > 0:31:17cosmetic testing, he is showing you can make things better.Because he
0:31:17 > 0:31:21is now deemed as a ruthless politician, do you think he's the
0:31:21 > 0:31:26man to push it? Do you think he is as ruthless as portrayed?As
0:31:26 > 0:31:31politician to politician, this is about power and making decisions. He
0:31:31 > 0:31:34is exercising his Cabinet post in an area where we can end up with new
0:31:34 > 0:31:40legislation, with the new freedom effectively.Is it to be trusted --
0:31:40 > 0:31:45is he to be trusted?He is getting things done.He's getting things
0:31:45 > 0:31:50done and I have worked with him for many years on the campaign trail.
0:31:50 > 0:31:55This government has to be dragged kicking and screaming through the
0:31:55 > 0:32:01courts to deal with the basic stuff which will affect our population.
0:32:01 > 0:32:11Airplay and related -- air pollution related deaths or in the thousands.
0:32:11 > 0:32:19In this government, as it is getting new powers on animal welfare he is
0:32:19 > 0:32:22making those changes. That should not stop other Cabinet ministers to
0:32:22 > 0:32:27do the same but on this narrow question, are we using those newly
0:32:27 > 0:32:34gained powers to have better standards than before?We need
0:32:34 > 0:32:38international cooperation. It has never been so important.Of course
0:32:38 > 0:32:41there needs to be international cooperation but it also takes
0:32:41 > 0:32:45responsible countries to lead and show the way and I think the way the
0:32:45 > 0:32:50United Kingdom can do it better... There has been a monument to failure
0:32:50 > 0:32:54from this government right across the board on climate change. If it
0:32:54 > 0:33:01cannot produce a clean growth plan on strategy, what leadership is
0:33:01 > 0:33:03there?To achieve the leadership you have said, are you convinced by
0:33:03 > 0:33:09Michael Gove. Is he to be trusted? He takes on the job, it was a
0:33:09 > 0:33:13portfolio we did not have before. Let's take another example.
0:33:13 > 0:33:18Yesterday I think the new fisheries quotas were being agreed and Michael
0:33:18 > 0:33:21has done a lot of work of saying what will be the return of powers,
0:33:21 > 0:33:25how do you have that allocation, how do you deal with that in the UK's
0:33:25 > 0:33:29interest. That is all you can expect from an effective politician at this
0:33:29 > 0:33:37stage.Is he ambitious that he wants to go for Prime Minister one-day?I
0:33:37 > 0:33:42am not here to speak on behalf of other people, what their political
0:33:42 > 0:33:49ambitions might be.Would you like to see some might Michael Gove be in
0:33:49 > 0:33:55the ten as an environmentalist?We have seen David Cameron as an
0:33:55 > 0:33:59environmentalist in Number Ten. Theresa May is forging through with
0:33:59 > 0:34:05animal welfare protection. We do have a government who is led by
0:34:05 > 0:34:08someone who is a committed environmentalist.D-Day and Michael
0:34:08 > 0:34:13Gove would be any stronger in standing up to Donald Trump -- do
0:34:13 > 0:34:22you think Michael Gove would be any stronger?I think this country is
0:34:22 > 0:34:27showing leadership both in terms of standing up to the European Union
0:34:27 > 0:34:31and Donald Trump when he is doing things which are not good for our
0:34:31 > 0:34:37planet.How did you feel about your 11 rebels last night?I was very
0:34:37 > 0:34:41disappointed. I was not so much disappointed for the Prime Minister
0:34:41 > 0:34:45and the government, I was disappointed for the 17.4 million
0:34:45 > 0:34:49people, the largest majority in a poll in this country who voted for
0:34:49 > 0:34:54Brexit and the 58% of my constituents who did as well.Do you
0:34:54 > 0:35:09think they betrayed people?Gisela. Should they be deselected?-- yes.
0:35:09 > 0:35:15Selection processes should be down to the individual constituencies to
0:35:15 > 0:35:17decide.
0:35:17 > 0:35:19Now, Theresa May will join fellow EU leaders in Brussels this
0:35:19 > 0:35:21afternoon, bruised - maybe - after last night's vote
0:35:21 > 0:35:24but confident that the other 27 leaders will agree to allow Brexit
0:35:24 > 0:35:27talks to move onto the UK's future relationship with the EU.
0:35:27 > 0:35:29Yesterday, the European Parliament passed a motion approving that move
0:35:29 > 0:35:33to phase II of the negotiations - but emphasising the UK must hold
0:35:33 > 0:35:34to the commitments it's made so far.
0:35:34 > 0:35:37That's after MEPs expressed concerns about some of the things
0:35:37 > 0:35:39Brexit Secretary, David Davis, has since said publicly
0:35:39 > 0:35:41about the agreement.
0:35:41 > 0:35:46We had an agreement, then it was put into question, in London.
0:35:46 > 0:35:49And that of course raises a lot of questions what any sort
0:35:49 > 0:35:52of agreement that we are making here, that you are making
0:35:52 > 0:35:55here with your counterparts.
0:35:55 > 0:35:58And I would say especially also about the future relationship.
0:35:58 > 0:36:01Because if you can't trust one another, if you're not sure that
0:36:01 > 0:36:03whatever you agree is actually going to hold, then this
0:36:03 > 0:36:07is going to put a major strain on any future relation.
0:36:07 > 0:36:09Monsieur Barnier said earlier there were key areas
0:36:09 > 0:36:13upon which he was not prepared to make many concessions.
0:36:13 > 0:36:15Well, you didn't need to, sir.
0:36:15 > 0:36:17Because you were up against Theresa May and she was...
0:36:17 > 0:36:18LAUGHTER.
0:36:18 > 0:36:22She was all for making as many concessions as she possibly could.
0:36:22 > 0:36:26Including agreeing a ludicrous bill of up to 40 billion sterling for us
0:36:26 > 0:36:28to have the right to leave.
0:36:28 > 0:36:32A continued role for the European Court of Justice.
0:36:32 > 0:36:36And in line with that, family reunions which mean frankly
0:36:36 > 0:36:39open-door immigration from the European Union is going
0:36:39 > 0:36:43to continue for years to come.
0:36:43 > 0:36:49I'm now joined from Strasbourg by the German Green MEP, Ska Keller,
0:36:49 > 0:36:53and here in the studio Anand Menon, professor of European Politics
0:36:53 > 0:36:59and Foreign Affairs at King's College London.
0:36:59 > 0:37:08Welcome to both of you. Ska first of all, how has Theresa May's defeat in
0:37:08 > 0:37:13the House of Commons last night been betrayed in Europe?I don't think
0:37:13 > 0:37:19this is a problem. The parliament in Britain wants to be involved, that
0:37:19 > 0:37:22is understandable, especially from other parliamentarians. The problem
0:37:22 > 0:37:27was really that the agreements which have been made here were put into
0:37:27 > 0:37:31question later by ministers. That should not happen.Do you not trust
0:37:31 > 0:37:35the UK to live up to that agreement that has been talked about and will
0:37:35 > 0:37:44probably be signed off this week? Well, the trust certainly has not
0:37:44 > 0:37:47increased in the last week and I think that is a big problem because
0:37:47 > 0:37:55we are going to talk now about a future relationship and trust is a
0:37:55 > 0:37:57very important issue there. I really hope that the British government
0:37:57 > 0:38:01will try and build trust rather than try and destroy it. I get that it is
0:38:01 > 0:38:04politically a very difficult situation in London, but still we
0:38:04 > 0:38:08have to rely on one another, we have to trust each other and whatever is
0:38:08 > 0:38:12said in London will also be heard here and that is something which is
0:38:12 > 0:38:16very important for the British government to understand.Are you
0:38:16 > 0:38:21worried that the agreement on the divorce settlement could unravel
0:38:21 > 0:38:27during phase two of the negotiations?I am not too worried
0:38:27 > 0:38:32yet. There is an agreement, we have seen it and we have seen the word
0:38:32 > 0:38:36comic in the agreement. It will be transferred to a legally binding
0:38:36 > 0:38:40agreement. We will know soon whether the British government stands up for
0:38:40 > 0:38:45its own words and irony hope that is the case.Do you think David Davis
0:38:45 > 0:38:52was reckless when he made those comments about it just being a
0:38:52 > 0:38:54statement of intent, the implication being that they cannot trust that
0:38:54 > 0:39:00agreement?If you read the agreement it starts off by saying nothing is
0:39:00 > 0:39:03agreed until everything is agreed, and there is a clear understanding
0:39:03 > 0:39:08that this is a process, and what the United Kingdom committed itself to.
0:39:08 > 0:39:15I think it is committed to, subject to the overall package. I think it
0:39:15 > 0:39:21is a bit of a storm in a teacup, that bit of the argument.Do you
0:39:21 > 0:39:28think it is a storm in a teacup, to use that British phrase, that
0:39:28 > 0:39:32nothing is agreed until everything is agreed? Do you understand that
0:39:32 > 0:39:38sentiment in the agreement?Of course, it is always the case that
0:39:38 > 0:39:41nothing is agreed until everything is agreed that that is different
0:39:41 > 0:39:44than saying there are nearly tensions. If David Davis had said we
0:39:44 > 0:39:49need to see the overall package, no problem, but he was putting it that
0:39:49 > 0:39:53the commitment was only an intention not. I do it have any problem that
0:39:53 > 0:39:57one has to look at the overall package once it is there, but I do
0:39:57 > 0:40:02have a problem with the commitment not being honoured. That for me is
0:40:02 > 0:40:07really important. And if we look at the future cooperation, it is
0:40:07 > 0:40:11important that we are not just saying it is just an intention when
0:40:11 > 0:40:15it is a commitment.That is a problem for Theresa May and the
0:40:15 > 0:40:18government, because if she hasn't got the trust of the negotiators on
0:40:18 > 0:40:22the other side, then that cooperation will not be there.I
0:40:22 > 0:40:27think they should have the trust, because part of the argument arose
0:40:27 > 0:40:31out of regulatory assignment. There was a sentence which said in the
0:40:31 > 0:40:42absence of any agreement, a dental
0:40:45 > 0:40:47about the Northern Ireland border. I think the two uncertainties were
0:40:47 > 0:40:49kind of conflated in there. I don't think there has been any intention
0:40:49 > 0:40:52to do things which were agreed as part of an overall package.Anand
0:40:52 > 0:40:56Menon, do you think there is a risk that if the UK does not live up to
0:40:56 > 0:41:02its commitments, and on the Northern Irish border, will it impact on the
0:41:02 > 0:41:07UK's ability to secure a trade deal with the EU?I think there are three
0:41:07 > 0:41:11dangers here. The first is that the agreement is awfully woolly. It
0:41:11 > 0:41:16means ministers can say one thing which goes against the
0:41:16 > 0:41:19understandings and the alignment is understood very differently in
0:41:19 > 0:41:24Brussels to the weight is understood here. Secondly, this is a progress
0:41:24 > 0:41:27report and not a deal. The British government is right in saying this
0:41:27 > 0:41:33is as far as we have got but we are not bound to it, because it has been
0:41:33 > 0:41:37ratified. The two sides mean something very different to the
0:41:37 > 0:41:42sentence of everything is -- nothing is agreed until everything is
0:41:42 > 0:41:50agreed. For some members of the British government, they seem to
0:41:50 > 0:41:53think that when everything is wrapped up it will include a trade
0:41:53 > 0:41:56deal but we will not have one when we have to put our name on this
0:41:56 > 0:42:02document.So there will not be a trade deal by March 2019. Do you
0:42:02 > 0:42:10accept that?No, because that is where all our energy has to go. I am
0:42:10 > 0:42:17not repaired to say we take it off the table at this stage.Phase two
0:42:17 > 0:42:22's transition. That will take a while. The EU will not get
0:42:22 > 0:42:26negotiating guidelines until March. This gives us time to sign a deep
0:42:26 > 0:42:31and competence of trade deal.Ska Keller, do you think a trade deal
0:42:31 > 0:42:39will be done by the UK and EU by March 2019?Well, I have been
0:42:39 > 0:42:44working on EU trade policy here, and the trade deals are really
0:42:44 > 0:42:47conjugated things, just from the whole matter of what you have to
0:42:47 > 0:42:51deal with. It takes really long and we have not had any trade agreement
0:42:51 > 0:42:56which has not taken many years. I den see how it can be so fast and
0:42:56 > 0:43:01that is not a matter of bad intentions, it is a matter of
0:43:01 > 0:43:04practicalities and technicalities. I don't see how we will get one so
0:43:04 > 0:43:12fast.I don't want to say two against one here, but what makes you
0:43:12 > 0:43:15think there is time, never mind the will, to get a trade deal done?
0:43:15 > 0:43:18Every trade deal which has been negotiated would be one where you
0:43:18 > 0:43:24had two diverging blocks, how to find a way of working together. This
0:43:24 > 0:43:27one is different because you are starting from the point of total
0:43:27 > 0:43:30convergence, say you are finding ways of how you can continue to
0:43:30 > 0:43:34trade, so it is a different deal. The complexities of the different
0:43:34 > 0:43:38nature and it can be done if the political will is there.Do you
0:43:38 > 0:43:44think this is the case or it is about transition? The next stage is
0:43:44 > 0:43:48about agreeing the terms of the two-year transition which will come
0:43:48 > 0:43:52after March 2019?I think transition will prove more compensated the many
0:43:52 > 0:43:55people think. The agreement that people are talking about, that we
0:43:55 > 0:44:00are in the market but not in a member state, is legally
0:44:00 > 0:44:05problematic. We start with full alignment, we start with a member
0:44:05 > 0:44:10state so you're not Canada where you have to start by identifying areas
0:44:10 > 0:44:15of convergence and divergence. But nonetheless, looking to the future,
0:44:15 > 0:44:19when we look at what particular customs arrangements will be put in
0:44:19 > 0:44:23place, that will not be happening overnight.Will you accept oversight
0:44:23 > 0:44:27of the European Court of Justice in the transition period and possibly
0:44:27 > 0:44:35beyond when it comes to the right of EU citizens?If you look at the deal
0:44:35 > 0:44:43it is time limited so that has to be a cut-off date.Where will it be?It
0:44:43 > 0:44:49is eight years and I accept that. For the number where you need
0:44:49 > 0:44:52referrals by British judges, time-limited, that is fine. But it
0:44:52 > 0:44:58is the authenticity of the European Court of Justice, after that you can
0:44:58 > 0:45:03negotiate. There has to be a clear intake.You would accept being in a
0:45:03 > 0:45:07customs union, single market, freedom of movement and some sort of
0:45:07 > 0:45:11judicial oversight during the period of transition?I would not put it
0:45:11 > 0:45:15the way you do, because you have to have agreed what the final position
0:45:15 > 0:45:20is, and the transition is towards a clearly defined end state.But not
0:45:20 > 0:45:30if we don't have a trade deal. Ska Keller, do you think we will remain
0:45:30 > 0:45:36in a status quo position for two years?
0:45:36 > 0:45:40Yes, certainly. The transition phase is needed to define what sort of
0:45:40 > 0:45:46future cooperation we have, the ECJ issue for us is very important,
0:45:46 > 0:45:51especially of course the citizens issue, they cannot just have a
0:45:51 > 0:45:56cut-off date in the near future because they are EU citizens who are
0:45:56 > 0:46:00still going to be there and we already see now we have big problems
0:46:00 > 0:46:06to prolong this to get residence permits, faced with really we are
0:46:06 > 0:46:09bureaucracy. That also has not increased the chances that we can
0:46:09 > 0:46:17just leave it to British courts. What does it mean in practice in
0:46:17 > 0:46:21terms of negotiating Brexit what happened last night, does it in
0:46:21 > 0:46:25pellet in any way?I don't think so, and I don't think those who rebelled
0:46:25 > 0:46:29against the whip were intending that. When push comes to shove a
0:46:29 > 0:46:33deal comes to Parliament next September October they had to vote
0:46:33 > 0:46:37on it and it looks like the default condition will be no deal so MPs
0:46:37 > 0:46:41will have a choice, we either vote for the deal or Brexit without one.
0:46:41 > 0:46:46You do not think it is likely MPs will reject it?Conservative MPs in
0:46:46 > 0:46:49particular will think carefully because it might bring down the
0:46:49 > 0:46:53government.
0:46:53 > 0:46:57Now - at the moment there are only very minor differences in the amount
0:46:57 > 0:47:00of income tax you pay in Scotland and the rest of the UK.
0:47:00 > 0:47:02But is Nicola Sturgeon's government about to wield its devolved powers
0:47:02 > 0:47:05to make big changes to the tax regime in Scotland?
0:47:05 > 0:47:08Let's talk to our Scotland editor, Sarah Smith who is at Holyrood.
0:47:08 > 0:47:11Everyone has assumed yes they are going to announce an increase in the
0:47:11 > 0:47:15higher rate of tax.That is what we assume and they might introduce some
0:47:15 > 0:47:19entirely new tax bands so there will be maybe four or five different
0:47:19 > 0:47:23rates of income tax in Scotland meaning higher earners could pay
0:47:23 > 0:47:26significant by more. We have had little clue from Nicola Sturgeon who
0:47:26 > 0:47:31was talking at First Minister questions and said 70% of all
0:47:31 > 0:47:34Scottish taxpayers will not see an increase in their income tax so I
0:47:34 > 0:47:38think from that we can read the basic rate is unlikely to go up.
0:47:38 > 0:47:41They would find it politically difficult to increase the base rate
0:47:41 > 0:47:45because they need a manifesto promise not to do that. But the
0:47:45 > 0:47:47Scottish Government says they need to increase the amount of revenue
0:47:47 > 0:47:51because they want to maintain public spending even though the amount of
0:47:51 > 0:47:55money they get from London is being cut. They have promised a pay rise
0:47:55 > 0:48:00to public sector workers. And they want to invest in other parts of the
0:48:00 > 0:48:02Scottish economy. To do that they have to raise more money so the
0:48:02 > 0:48:09betting is it will be middle and high earning earners who will bear
0:48:09 > 0:48:12the brunt.What will be the impact in having a different band in
0:48:12 > 0:48:18Scotland to the rest of the UK?The Scottish Government argues that
0:48:18 > 0:48:20taxpayers who live in Scotland should be happier to pay more
0:48:20 > 0:48:23because they argue we get benefits which are not available to people
0:48:23 > 0:48:31who live in England, Wales and Northern Ireland like free tuition
0:48:31 > 0:48:34fees and prescriptions. But they have to be careful not to raise
0:48:34 > 0:48:38income tax on higher earners too much. There have been a lot of
0:48:38 > 0:48:42warnings from finance experts saying if you put the higher rate up to
0:48:42 > 0:48:46far, 50p being the psychological tipping point, you will find these
0:48:46 > 0:48:51higher earners who are very mobile will relocate to other parts of the
0:48:51 > 0:48:54UK or find different congregated ways of shielding income from tax
0:48:54 > 0:48:57and the revenue which comes to the government might actually go down.
0:48:57 > 0:49:04It's a delicate balance. How to raise money from the better off
0:49:04 > 0:49:07without leading to behavioural changes would mean tax receipts are
0:49:07 > 0:49:12reduced.While they have the support of Labour?Certainly not, the new
0:49:12 > 0:49:15leader of the Labour Party in Scotland Richard Leonard has
0:49:15 > 0:49:18outlined tax plans which are far more radical than the government are
0:49:18 > 0:49:27like to go for. They want a juicy
0:49:27 > 0:49:34the Tories are against any difference between Scotland and the
0:49:34 > 0:49:38UK, they say Scotland becomes non-Nazi high tax economy people not
0:49:38 > 0:49:43want to live here. But the SNP will need to get the agreement of some
0:49:43 > 0:49:46other party because they are a minority government so unless they
0:49:46 > 0:49:57can get the greens or the Lib Dems to vote with them.
0:49:57 > 0:49:59Now, are the Labour Leader's achievements being overlooked?
0:49:59 > 0:50:01Jeremy Corbyn was awarded a peace prize last Friday.
0:50:01 > 0:50:03If that's news to you it's probably because it wasn't reported
0:50:03 > 0:50:05by most broadcasters, newspapers or mainstream news websites.
0:50:05 > 0:50:07But should it have been?
0:50:07 > 0:50:09It all started with a press release in September -
0:50:09 > 0:50:11Jeremy Corbyn had won the Sean MacBride Peace Prize
0:50:11 > 0:50:16from an organisation called the International Peace Bureau.
0:50:16 > 0:50:18Last week, Mr Corbyn went to Geneva to deliver a speech
0:50:18 > 0:50:20to the United Nations, and whilst he was there
0:50:20 > 0:50:22he received the peace prize.
0:50:22 > 0:50:24His speech was covered by mainstream media outlets.
0:50:24 > 0:50:27But the fact he'd won the prize wasn't.
0:50:27 > 0:50:30The online news site Sqwawkbox posted an article accusing the BBC
0:50:30 > 0:50:40and other mainstream media outlets of ignoring Mr Corbyn's accolade.
0:50:42 > 0:50:45And the story was picked up by Corbyn supporters on social media -
0:50:45 > 0:50:47accusing the MSM, or mainstream media, of bias.
0:50:47 > 0:50:49But when Channel Four's factcheck looked into the accusation,
0:50:49 > 0:50:52they concluded that the award of the prize had only been reported
0:50:52 > 0:50:54twice in the UK media since 1992.
0:50:54 > 0:50:56But that article prompted another furious backlash on social media
0:50:56 > 0:51:00from Jeremy Corbyn supporters.
0:51:00 > 0:51:03We're joined now by the Labour front bencher and Jeremy Corbyn
0:51:03 > 0:51:06ally, Chris Williamson.
0:51:06 > 0:51:10Welcome back, why do you think there is a conspiracy amongst UK
0:51:10 > 0:51:13mainstream media to suppress positive stories about Jeremy
0:51:13 > 0:51:18Corbyn?You tell me but it is clear there was a blackout. There was a
0:51:18 > 0:51:22photograph of Jeremy wearing a tracksuit and it made front-page
0:51:22 > 0:51:26news. When Theresa May put a star on a Christmas tree there was
0:51:26 > 0:51:30wall-to-wall coverage as there was of William and Kate being awarded
0:51:30 > 0:51:34the blue Peter badge. Here we have the Leader of the Opposition being
0:51:34 > 0:51:41awarded a prestigious peace award and being completely ignored.Why
0:51:41 > 0:51:46did you not mention it when it was announced back on six of September?
0:51:46 > 0:51:52Jeremy is not one for bragging about his achievements. The fact is when
0:51:52 > 0:51:56the award was made, that is when the ceremony took place, last week, that
0:51:56 > 0:52:01was the time it seems to me for the media...Surely you do it when it
0:52:01 > 0:52:07announced an part of the problem was nobody in Labour announced it.I
0:52:07 > 0:52:12would ask you, if it was Theresa May that had been given this award or
0:52:12 > 0:52:14any award, do you think the mainstream media would have ignored
0:52:14 > 0:52:23it?THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER Maybe the press office might have done?
0:52:23 > 0:52:28When did you first hear about it?I first heard when he was awarded it
0:52:28 > 0:52:35last week. I would have expected the mainstream media, when you have the
0:52:35 > 0:52:40Leader of the Opposition being awarded this prestigious award to
0:52:40 > 0:52:44have actually given some attention to it. Not saying it should be main
0:52:44 > 0:52:47headline news but there was no mention whatsoever.Should do not
0:52:47 > 0:52:53have been some attention given to the fact Jeremy Corbyn had won this
0:52:53 > 0:52:57peace prize?I have to confess I had not heard of that prize or its being
0:52:57 > 0:53:03awarded. In my experience, if you want news out there you have two
0:53:03 > 0:53:09quite often beat your own drum.Do you agree? You did not know about
0:53:09 > 0:53:13it, you just said, back on the 6th of September when it was announced
0:53:13 > 0:53:17he has won the price, none of the official Labour media accounts or
0:53:17 > 0:53:20even Jeremy Corbyn himself publicised it, do you think that's a
0:53:20 > 0:53:26problem?I think the problem is with the mainstream media who ignored it.
0:53:26 > 0:53:32Even when it went viral on social media.Where did it go viral?After
0:53:32 > 0:53:36he had been awarded the prize.The criticism from you is that we did
0:53:36 > 0:53:42not reported at the time and you didn't seem to know about it nor did
0:53:42 > 0:53:53Labour will stop but that is your job.You are the media. You're the
0:53:53 > 0:53:58BBC and it is your job to report the news.You did not know he had been
0:53:58 > 0:54:01awarded this prize, so why would every part of the media know if you
0:54:01 > 0:54:07yourself did not know? I did not know at the time it was announced on
0:54:07 > 0:54:11the 6th of September.Not on the 6th of September. But we are talking
0:54:11 > 0:54:15about last week.Did you know on the 6th of September? Did Jeremy Corbyn
0:54:15 > 0:54:23now?It is irrelevant.Why is it irrelevant?The presentation was
0:54:23 > 0:54:27made last week, he was in Geneva for that and to make an important speech
0:54:27 > 0:54:31which did not get a lot of coverage either. The Leader of the Opposition
0:54:31 > 0:54:37being given what I think is a prestigious award, 1891 cents this
0:54:37 > 0:54:44organisation has been in existence and some say it inspired the Nobel
0:54:44 > 0:54:48Peace Prize. They are very established in that sense and yet
0:54:48 > 0:54:52the media ignored the fact that the Leader of the Opposition, the
0:54:52 > 0:54:57official opposition in this country, particularly when you take into
0:54:57 > 0:55:01account all the smears which have been levelled at Jeremy. This issue
0:55:01 > 0:55:07about his alleged support for Hamas which is nonsense. Here we have a
0:55:07 > 0:55:13peace award being awarded to him and no mention.Do you not think that is
0:55:13 > 0:55:19unfair on Jeremy Corbyn? There has been never negative coverage, do you
0:55:19 > 0:55:25think that has been unfair?Randolph Hearst once said that news is what
0:55:25 > 0:55:30someone does not want you to know and everything else is advertising.
0:55:30 > 0:55:35I could have masses of criticism as to whether the news at the moment is
0:55:35 > 0:55:41too negative about Brexit, I know the media was very negative about
0:55:41 > 0:55:46Jeremy Corbyn. But then how do you respond as an organisation? You have
0:55:46 > 0:55:50to rebut it and put out the good news stories.But the point here is
0:55:50 > 0:55:54there was no news, they just ignored it. If there was nothing about
0:55:54 > 0:55:58Brexit I think there would be something to say about it. When the
0:55:58 > 0:56:01media is giving a wall to wall coverage of the Prime Minister
0:56:01 > 0:56:06putting a star on the Christmas tree but is not reporting that the leader
0:56:06 > 0:56:09of the official opposition has been presented with a prestigious peace
0:56:09 > 0:56:13award particularly given the allegations made against him that he
0:56:13 > 0:56:18is soft on terrorism...You have not answered that question, is there an
0:56:18 > 0:56:22fair coverage of Jeremy Corbyn and his position on things like, the
0:56:22 > 0:56:26Israeli-Palestinian crisis for example?There is a tendency to
0:56:26 > 0:56:29focus on the negative but that is what the media does and that is why
0:56:29 > 0:56:33we need to go out and put the positive on that.The point is it is
0:56:33 > 0:56:37a media blackout, it's not negativity, this is just a blackout.
0:56:37 > 0:56:42When it's good news there is nothing, the media just...Is it
0:56:42 > 0:56:45because it is not controversial or unusual?
0:56:48 > 0:56:52You just said yourself, if it is good news it does not get coverage.
0:56:52 > 0:56:56You said unusual, I think it is unusual, when is the last time the
0:56:56 > 0:57:01leader of the official opposition in this country was presented with a
0:57:01 > 0:57:05peace prize?Unusual that there was not anything controversial.So you
0:57:05 > 0:57:14only report bad news?That is what you are implying!But when it is the
0:57:14 > 0:57:19Prime Minister you report about putting a tree up, or Jeremy Corbyn
0:57:19 > 0:57:24is wearing a tracksuit.Next time put it on Twitter when it happens.
0:57:24 > 0:57:28When it was and it was by was a media blackout is the point I am
0:57:28 > 0:57:32making.Well we are not media blackout in you, thank you for
0:57:32 > 0:57:33coming on.
0:57:33 > 0:57:37There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
0:57:37 > 0:57:39The question was - according to Facebook,
0:57:39 > 0:57:41what did an organisation with links to the Russian government
0:57:41 > 0:57:43spend just 73p promoting, according to Facebook?
0:57:43 > 0:57:44Was it:
0:57:44 > 0:57:45The American Election?
0:57:45 > 0:57:46Brexit?
0:57:46 > 0:57:47This year's general election?
0:57:47 > 0:57:48Or vodka?
0:57:48 > 0:57:52So Gisela, what's the correct answer?
0:57:52 > 0:57:58Is it because I am here that the answer is Brexit?Funnily enough,
0:57:58 > 0:58:02well done, you have cottoned on to this. Do you believe them in that
0:58:02 > 0:58:08regard, was evidence of Russian interference?I have no evidence of
0:58:08 > 0:58:13that but I am sure the enquiries will tell me. I am so new media
0:58:13 > 0:58:21useless that's...That sounds like an excuse to me!If there is
0:58:21 > 0:58:27evidence out there I would like to know it.And the Electoral
0:58:27 > 0:58:31Commission is reopening and investigating into spending, why is
0:58:31 > 0:58:37that?I think it is doing its job and I am glad they are following the
0:58:37 > 0:58:41proper procedure.Were you surprised?I was, because I was not
0:58:41 > 0:58:46sure what neither was but they have two the job and I think they ought
0:58:46 > 0:58:48to.
0:58:48 > 0:58:49That's all for today.
0:58:49 > 0:58:51Thanks to all my guests, especially Gisela.
0:58:51 > 0:58:53The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.
0:58:53 > 0:58:56And I'll be back here at noon tomorrow with all the big
0:58:56 > 0:58:57political stories of the day.
0:58:57 > 0:58:58Bye-bye.