0:00:37 > 0:00:41Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43EU leaders have formally agreed to move Brexit talks
0:00:43 > 0:00:45onto the next stage.
0:00:45 > 0:00:48So does this mean Theresa May will get her wish to start
0:00:48 > 0:00:51talking trade anytime soon?
0:00:51 > 0:00:52Is it the future of money?
0:00:52 > 0:00:56Or a dangerous currency bubble about to burst?
0:00:56 > 0:00:59We'll delve into the secretive world of Bitcoin and ask whether it
0:00:59 > 0:01:02needs more regulation.
0:01:02 > 0:01:05What's your national identity?
0:01:05 > 0:01:06English, Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish?
0:01:06 > 0:01:08Or Cornish?
0:01:08 > 0:01:10Yes, the good people of Cornwall want their own tick-box
0:01:10 > 0:01:11in the next census.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14Could it happen?
0:01:14 > 0:01:18And, was the donner almost a gonner?
0:01:18 > 0:01:20A vote in the European Parliament this week almost skewered the humble
0:01:20 > 0:01:23"frozen vertical meat stick" - or kebab to you and me.
0:01:23 > 0:01:32We'll chew over the details.
0:01:32 > 0:01:35All that in the next hour and with us for the whole programme
0:01:35 > 0:01:38today is Anne McElvoy from the Economist and the Daily
0:01:38 > 0:01:40Mail's Andrew Pierce.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43First today, the UK's most senior military officer has warned that
0:01:43 > 0:01:46Russia could turn off the internet to Britain by tampering with
0:01:46 > 0:01:50the undersea cables in the Atlantic.
0:01:50 > 0:01:53The Chief of Defence Staff Sir Stuart Peach said Russian ships
0:01:53 > 0:01:56had been spotted close to the cables and this posed a new
0:01:56 > 0:02:00threat to UK security.
0:02:00 > 0:02:04Russia, in addition to new ships and submarines, continues to perfect
0:02:04 > 0:02:13both unconventional capabilities and information warfare.
0:02:13 > 0:02:16And there's a new risk to our way of life, which is the vulnerability
0:02:16 > 0:02:19of the cables that crisscross the sea beds.
0:02:19 > 0:02:23Can you imagine a scenario where those cables are cut or disrupted,
0:02:23 > 0:02:28which would immediately and potentially catastrophically
0:02:28 > 0:02:30affect both our economy and other ways of living
0:02:30 > 0:02:37if they were disrupted?
0:02:37 > 0:02:41How vulnerable is Crypto- Britain to this threat?One wouldn't
0:02:41 > 0:02:46underestimate how much goes on behind the scenes thinking of
0:02:46 > 0:02:54unconventional warfare. It sounds from the Borne Id dentity. Attacks
0:02:54 > 0:03:00on cyberstructure, which we have seen and are repelled by
0:03:00 > 0:03:04Governments, a lot of them in some way are connected to China, some to
0:03:04 > 0:03:07Russia and some to other states in the Middle East. These are things
0:03:07 > 0:03:11they worry about a lot. Particularly these big cables. We sort of forget
0:03:11 > 0:03:17they are down there because they have been down there so long. There
0:03:17 > 0:03:23is a poem writ no-one the 1920s about -- written in the 1920s about
0:03:23 > 0:03:27installing them. It is the infrastructure which keeps
0:03:27 > 0:03:32everything on the road. It would signal this is not just a flyby
0:03:32 > 0:03:36night idea, that they do think there might be some sort of planning that
0:03:36 > 0:03:42could possibly aim towards an attack.And if that is a real
0:03:42 > 0:03:46threat, an attack from Russia on these cables, Britain doesn't really
0:03:46 > 0:03:51have the ships, submarines or aircraft to mount constant watch of
0:03:51 > 0:04:00these cables. Are you happy and reassured to rely on Nato to do it?
0:04:00 > 0:04:06Defence cuts have been made so much. Siber warfare is the new cold war.
0:04:06 > 0:04:11No doubt about it. It would be sad to rely on Nato to patrol our
0:04:11 > 0:04:15waters. That would be the only way. It would be a crippling blow if we
0:04:15 > 0:04:20were attacked in that way in undersea communications.I am not
0:04:20 > 0:04:24sure whether I agree whether I agree, we have to think about what
0:04:24 > 0:04:27is joint security at the moment and particularly when we look at the
0:04:27 > 0:04:31fragmented Europe, where I think that Nato alliances is one of the
0:04:31 > 0:04:34things which might help to glue the countries with similar values back
0:04:34 > 0:04:38together. Actually having that view, which is not something we were
0:04:38 > 0:04:48saying picking a fight with Russia, not trying to do manoeuvres. To your
0:04:48 > 0:04:52question about what would follow, well, I am afraid I can only follow
0:04:52 > 0:04:56what we heard there - they probably have a better idea than I do. What
0:04:56 > 0:04:59they are worried about is something which causes panic and would cause
0:04:59 > 0:05:03the internet to go down. Of course people's devices would stop working.
0:05:03 > 0:05:07As you would well know, the run-up to this programme, all of us, not
0:05:07 > 0:05:13saying the worst thing in the world, but...It would be dramatic.In
0:05:13 > 0:05:18everyone's lives. Of course hospital machinery depends on it. Things more
0:05:18 > 0:05:23important than The Daily Politics going out on time depend on it. That
0:05:23 > 0:05:28sense, how much of our domestic life and security, personal security on
0:05:28 > 0:05:34line depends on it all working. Let's leave it there.
0:05:34 > 0:05:37Now, EU leaders have given the green light to the next
0:05:37 > 0:05:38phase of Brexit talks.
0:05:38 > 0:05:40They're meeting on the second day of the European Council
0:05:40 > 0:05:42Summit in Brussels.
0:05:42 > 0:05:44Theresa May isn't there - she's flown home -
0:05:44 > 0:05:47but at a four-hour working dinner last night she told European leaders
0:05:47 > 0:05:50she was keen to "get on to the next phase" of negotiations and discuss
0:05:50 > 0:05:54Britain's future relationship.
0:05:54 > 0:05:57We can speak now to our old friend, Adam Fleming, who has been
0:05:57 > 0:06:00at the summit for the last two days.
0:06:02 > 0:06:07Welcome back. In terms of timing when do you think we will move on to
0:06:07 > 0:06:12these trade talks? The indications indicate it will not be in the
0:06:12 > 0:06:16immediate future.Good to be back. Yes, it has happened, sufficient
0:06:16 > 0:06:20progress has been declared. Notice that is sufficient progress, not
0:06:20 > 0:06:25phase one completely done and dusted. There's been a collective
0:06:25 > 0:06:28sigh of relief over the last couple of days they have reached this
0:06:28 > 0:06:31symbolic milestone. It is the question of when the trade talks
0:06:31 > 0:06:34will start. We have seen the guidelines which are the blueprint
0:06:34 > 0:06:38for phase two. They have been published by the European Council.
0:06:38 > 0:06:42The first thing which will happen is the formal negotiations about the
0:06:42 > 0:06:45transition period oh or what the UK Government call the implementation
0:06:45 > 0:06:50phase, what happens next Street the chief negotiator will publish a new
0:06:50 > 0:06:54document, probably as soon as next week, fleshing out what those
0:06:54 > 0:06:58negotiations will involve, the terms which they will be conducted. He
0:06:58 > 0:07:02told me when he arrived they will probably start negotiations about
0:07:02 > 0:07:05the transition period in January n the New Year, as soon as they can,
0:07:05 > 0:07:13basically. Now the issue of the few our partnership -- future
0:07:13 > 0:07:17partnership, the co-operation on trade, defence, security, climate
0:07:17 > 0:07:21change, you name it, it will probably not get started until March
0:07:21 > 0:07:272018 at the earliest. Because the EU 27, the 27 remaining countries want
0:07:27 > 0:07:30the UK Government to have a Cabinet-level discussion about what
0:07:30 > 0:07:36they want from that future partnership. Only then will the EU
0:07:36 > 0:07:39put out more detailed guidance about what they want from the future
0:07:39 > 0:07:43partnership and how those negotiations will unfold. A little
0:07:43 > 0:07:58one though, there has been a change. Says the EU 27 can start work. It is
0:07:58 > 0:08:03not a dead stop on that until March. There'll be work happening in
0:08:03 > 0:08:08Brussels towards those talks starting in March.Theresa May was
0:08:08 > 0:08:12applauded after addressing EU leaders last night. Does that mean
0:08:12 > 0:08:18the EU counsel is full square behind her?It has been amazing to see the
0:08:18 > 0:08:21support she's had from continental colleagues. It exists for a few
0:08:21 > 0:08:25reasons. First, they want to give her help because they know she's got
0:08:25 > 0:08:28a difficult political situation back home. They want her to stay in
0:08:28 > 0:08:32position and be able to deliver the final Brexit deal and get it tloo u
0:08:32 > 0:08:36the British Parliament. Second of all, these are all professional
0:08:36 > 0:08:41politicians, many of whom find themselves in a far more precarious
0:08:41 > 0:08:45political position than Theresa May does. There a has been a lot of
0:08:45 > 0:08:49fellow feeling for her as well. It's been quite amazing seeing the
0:08:49 > 0:08:53solidarity that people have been laying it on quite thick, some
0:08:53 > 0:09:07people say.It is the season of goodwill and thaul. So -- and all
0:09:07 > 0:09:07that.
0:09:09 > 0:09:12So relief for the Prime Minister in Brussels, but where does it
0:09:12 > 0:09:14leave her with Parliament and her party, especially
0:09:14 > 0:09:18after this week's defeat...
0:09:19 > 0:09:25What do you think of the Conservative rebels?The rears, a
0:09:25 > 0:09:29lot of former ministers who were fired. I still think they are
0:09:29 > 0:09:40intent, some at least, in trying to destroy Brexit. Dominic Grieve has
0:09:40 > 0:09:42told me it's the worst thing which has happened in this country. Think
0:09:42 > 0:09:46I he would like to junk the whole thing. The Prime Minister may back
0:09:46 > 0:09:50off this idea of actually writing the date into legislation because
0:09:50 > 0:09:55she cannot afford another defeat. It is too embarrassing.It has enraged
0:09:55 > 0:10:07people. Dominic Grieve has received death threats do. You feel
0:10:07 > 0:10:13responsible for whipping up that sort of...I am sorry he's received
0:10:13 > 0:10:17death threats. It is nothing to do what the Daily Mail has put on their
0:10:17 > 0:10:22page. The reason she is applauded is because they are dealing with her.
0:10:22 > 0:10:31The last thing they want is Boris Johnson or Michael Gove or a
0:10:31 > 0:10:35hard-line Brexit tear leading the negotiations.Does it do anything to
0:10:35 > 0:10:39lessen the likelihood of it happening?Not to my mind. I can see
0:10:39 > 0:10:43the case for arguing for Parliament to have a greater say and
0:10:43 > 0:10:49sovereignty. That is actually the strongest plank in the argument and
0:10:49 > 0:10:53those of his fellow wreckers, as Andrew says, as a bit of a joke.
0:10:53 > 0:10:56There is something there about the role of Parliament which is quite
0:10:56 > 0:11:00difficult in this situation. However, there is a problem. There
0:11:00 > 0:11:05is a problem from this viewpoint - which is, what do they think they
0:11:05 > 0:11:09would like. It is not a menu where you can go I would like it with the
0:11:09 > 0:11:12pork! You have to take it with the direction of travel and you see from
0:11:12 > 0:11:16your package there is a sense the EU is behind the direction of travel
0:11:16 > 0:11:20that Theresa May has taken f they have to have Brexit at all, I should
0:11:20 > 0:11:27say. If you don't go this route, most of that, you end up with a
0:11:27 > 0:11:32resort of WTO rules, which is the so-called hard Brexit, which most
0:11:32 > 0:11:37people who oppose Brexit don't want most of all. Their own strategy is
0:11:37 > 0:11:46unclear beyond inflicting damage on Theresa May.Looking beyond next
0:11:46 > 0:11:50week, we have heard from the lobby, where the press were gathered at
0:11:50 > 0:11:54number ten to say they have no plans to withdraw it. Is that code for,
0:11:54 > 0:12:00they might be?That is code for they might change their mind. The whips I
0:12:00 > 0:12:07don't think handled it this week. There was rumour that the Chief Whip
0:12:07 > 0:12:09was threatening action against some of the rebels. They have to improve
0:12:09 > 0:12:15it this week. If there is a risk, they'll back off. If they do keep
0:12:15 > 0:12:19pushing this, the EU has said they will not reopen negotiations thus
0:12:19 > 0:12:23far. We could walk away with no deal at all. That is the last thing they
0:12:23 > 0:12:27want.What about the op sigss in this? They joined with the Tory
0:12:27 > 0:12:33rebels. Are they emboldened or do they actually now seem to think they
0:12:33 > 0:12:36do have to go along with negotiations because there isn't
0:12:36 > 0:12:42much more they can do at this point? It depends who you are asking. If
0:12:42 > 0:12:50you look at Kier Starmer trying to move his party in the single market
0:12:50 > 0:12:55access as much as possible, what you want to do from his perspective is
0:12:55 > 0:12:58make life difficult for the Government. You don't want a
0:12:58 > 0:13:03full-frontal assault on the Government.
0:13:03 > 0:13:06Jeremy Corbyn said things which didn't commit Labour to anything at
0:13:06 > 0:13:11all. And I think Keir Starmer has got
0:13:11 > 0:13:14Jeremy Corbyn in his team be I saying, please don't say anything
0:13:14 > 0:13:18unless you mean it it is unclear what Labour would actually do. If we
0:13:18 > 0:13:23were to go into an early election that question would loom from day
0:13:23 > 0:13:27one that Labour's position is absolutely mysterious.
0:13:27 > 0:13:32What might be intriguing to the voting public is the Cabinet doesn't
0:13:32 > 0:13:36have an agreed position yet, well not publically in terms of how the
0:13:36 > 0:13:41future relationship with the EU or what it will look like - why not?
0:13:41 > 0:13:45The Prime Minister has not permitted the discussion to take place. She
0:13:45 > 0:13:49wants the first negotiations out of the way. It has actually stopped the
0:13:49 > 0:13:56discussion.Is that because the gulf between the likes of Phillip Hammond
0:13:56 > 0:14:01on one and Boris Johnson and Michael Gove is too wide that it cannot be
0:14:01 > 0:14:05reached?There is a big gap between them. The Chancellor knows we are
0:14:05 > 0:14:09leaving the European Union, we are leaving the customs union, that is
0:14:09 > 0:14:14agreed.How far apart do you think they will be. We have heard from
0:14:14 > 0:14:19Brussels the sort of threat, until you have an agreed position, and
0:14:19 > 0:14:25until we know the view we will not move on to the trade talks.Theresa
0:14:25 > 0:14:29May can be a rid gid leader. She's not being too unclever about this.
0:14:29 > 0:14:33Last week in the run-up, when things were going badly with that meeting,
0:14:33 > 0:14:37that problem with the DUP, and all those things, what she did cleverly
0:14:37 > 0:14:42is got Michael Gove on side to sign up to sort of some sort of plus,
0:14:42 > 0:14:48plus, minus and add to take away one. That seems to be going. So
0:14:48 > 0:14:54Michael Gove seems to be coming on side. She got Boris Johnson on side
0:14:54 > 0:15:01separately to say, could you advise? She's good as picking off one by
0:15:01 > 0:15:05one. She doesn't want to have everyone around a table and say, OK,
0:15:05 > 0:15:09what would you like? Then those splits would open up again. The
0:15:09 > 0:15:14mixture and desire to get there and internal competition, she ended up
0:15:14 > 0:15:17with her Chancellor and Defence Secretary having a stand-up fight
0:15:17 > 0:15:21recently.Which didn't get that much coverage because there was so much
0:15:21 > 0:15:25talk about Brexit.She doesn't want that again. She picks off the
0:15:25 > 0:15:28naughty boys and girls one by one, like a good head.What about
0:15:28 > 0:15:32transition because that and the terms of transition seems to be the
0:15:32 > 0:15:37next priority. How urgent is that now for business that those terms
0:15:37 > 0:15:38are agreed?
0:15:44 > 0:15:48It's pretty much going to be a two-year transition and no more. I
0:15:48 > 0:15:51was at a conference in Reading and talking to businesses and they said
0:15:51 > 0:15:55they're much more relaxed now about Brexit. They feared the uncertainty
0:15:55 > 0:16:00but they think clarity is coming. Don't you think that would be open
0:16:00 > 0:16:04if this issue with the date keeps slipping? It's one thing you can
0:16:04 > 0:16:08save you can check out whenever you like but you can only leave in cue
0:16:08 > 0:16:12years just that. As soon as there's an odd little about the date, I
0:16:12 > 0:16:18think that will make the hard Brexit crowd go crazy.Let's move on.
0:16:18 > 0:16:19It's the new goldrush.
0:16:19 > 0:16:21The digital currency bitcoin has been making headlines this week
0:16:21 > 0:16:23after its huge increase in value.
0:16:23 > 0:16:26But now ministers are to introduce tighter regulations on the virtual
0:16:26 > 0:16:28currency because of concerns it's being used to launder
0:16:28 > 0:16:29money and dodge tax.
0:16:29 > 0:16:31Some MPs believe the Government should help bring digital currencies
0:16:31 > 0:16:33into the mainstream, and say it could have advantages
0:16:33 > 0:16:34for our public services.
0:16:34 > 0:16:38Here's Emma Vardy.
0:16:38 > 0:16:41Bitcoin is one of a number of so-called crypto currencies.
0:16:41 > 0:16:45Unlike the notes in your pocket, it largely exists online and isn't
0:16:45 > 0:16:49printed by governments or traditional banks.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52You store bitcoin in a digital wallet and it can be used to pay
0:16:52 > 0:16:54for all sorts of goods and services online.
0:16:54 > 0:16:58And some businesses accept payment in bitcoin, too,
0:16:58 > 0:17:00like this soup restaurant here in Old Street, which also
0:17:00 > 0:17:05has its own bitcoin cashpoint.
0:17:05 > 0:17:07There is an advantage and that's lower transaction fees.
0:17:07 > 0:17:10If you compare the fees of accepting bitcoin compared
0:17:10 > 0:17:13to credit card fees, which - especially AMEX -
0:17:13 > 0:17:15can be very high.
0:17:15 > 0:17:19It's quite nice being the underdog against the banking system.
0:17:19 > 0:17:22Until now, people have been able to buy and sell bitcoin
0:17:22 > 0:17:24largely anonymously.
0:17:24 > 0:17:27So apart from just buying your lunch with it, police say it could be used
0:17:27 > 0:17:30on a much bigger scale for money laundering by criminals.
0:17:30 > 0:17:35Now the Treasury wants to regulate bitcoin and other crypto currencies.
0:17:35 > 0:17:38Regulators need to look at consumer protection and I think that's
0:17:38 > 0:17:41probably one of the issues that we really need to address
0:17:41 > 0:17:43and take seriously.
0:17:43 > 0:17:44There is no protections, actually, in bitcoin.
0:17:44 > 0:17:48So if you go to the bank, you've got a £70,000 buffer
0:17:48 > 0:17:49that they will guarantee for you.
0:17:49 > 0:17:50No such thing with bitcoin.
0:17:50 > 0:17:54You are effectively your own bank.
0:17:54 > 0:17:57At the moment, the new regulations, which are expected to come
0:17:57 > 0:17:59into force by early next year, will focus on giving
0:17:59 > 0:18:01authorities greater oversight of crypto currencies under
0:18:01 > 0:18:07anti-money-laundering and counterterrorism legislation.
0:18:07 > 0:18:10The identities of bitcoin users will no longer remain anonymous.
0:18:10 > 0:18:14But some say the government should go much further.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17We ought to be leading the way in how we can apply this for social
0:18:17 > 0:18:20good as well as for economic gain.
0:18:20 > 0:18:24By encouraging bitcoin and that side of the crypto currencies and that
0:18:24 > 0:18:29side of this new technology wave, by regulating it properly
0:18:29 > 0:18:31and allowing it to expand, we are actually doing ourselves
0:18:31 > 0:18:34a big favour as a country.
0:18:34 > 0:18:36John Mann, a member of the Treasury Select Committee,
0:18:36 > 0:18:39says he wants to see the government carry out a much fuller enquiry
0:18:39 > 0:18:42into the potential use of alternative currencies for public
0:18:42 > 0:18:44services And believes the government should look at how
0:18:44 > 0:18:47they and the underlying technology, called blockchain, could be used
0:18:47 > 0:18:51in future by authorities.
0:18:51 > 0:18:54I'd like to see our health records put on the blockchain,
0:18:54 > 0:18:59so if an ambulance turns up, they've got immediate
0:18:59 > 0:19:00access to my records.
0:19:00 > 0:19:02Also property transactions, a really good one to be
0:19:02 > 0:19:03carried out on there.
0:19:03 > 0:19:06It would actually help get rid of fraud.
0:19:06 > 0:19:09It needs that push from government and that would allow this
0:19:09 > 0:19:16whole new technology wave to dramatically expand.
0:19:16 > 0:19:18The value of a single bitcoin has increased 12-fold this year,
0:19:18 > 0:19:24from around £700 in January to around £8,000.
0:19:24 > 0:19:27Part of its charm, some argue, was the fact it wasn't
0:19:27 > 0:19:28part of the mainstream.
0:19:28 > 0:19:38Now government regulation could pave the way for that to change.
0:19:39 > 0:19:41Well, here to discuss this with me are Dominic Frisby, author
0:19:41 > 0:19:43of Bitcoin: The Future Of Money?
0:19:43 > 0:19:45And Dr Savvas Savouri, chief economist at
0:19:45 > 0:19:45Toscafund Asset Management.
0:19:45 > 0:19:51Welcome to the programme.
0:19:51 > 0:19:54Dominick, do you think we'll all be paying for our shopping and meals
0:19:54 > 0:20:00out with bitcoin in the future?No, I don't. Bitcoin is another currency
0:20:00 > 0:20:05and it was designed to be cash for the Internet. If you think about
0:20:05 > 0:20:09what we use cash for in the real world, we use it for small
0:20:09 > 0:20:14transactions, we use it for quick transactions, we use it for direct
0:20:14 > 0:20:17transactions and we use it for private transactions. Now, they're
0:20:17 > 0:20:21all sorts of transactions and the aim of bitcoin was to replicate that
0:20:21 > 0:20:25for the Internet. So I can send you money without involving a bank or
0:20:25 > 0:20:30any kind of middleman. That was the original purpose of bitcoin and it
0:20:30 > 0:20:34wasn't to kind of replace the US dollar or anything else or the
0:20:34 > 0:20:38British pound, so the idea that we'll use it and it will be the only
0:20:38 > 0:20:41money system in the world is fallacious. But the technology
0:20:41 > 0:20:46behind it, which am as your show just showed, morphed into something
0:20:46 > 0:20:49much bigger than an alternative cash system. It used for record keeping,
0:20:49 > 0:20:55all sorts of things. The technology behind it is a breakthrough
0:20:55 > 0:20:58technology and future money systems might actually be based on block
0:20:58 > 0:21:08chain technology.Why don't you think, that the future of it is with
0:21:08 > 0:21:14bitcoin, Sav?You mentioned block chain. You don't own block chain by
0:21:14 > 0:21:20owning bitcoin. If you look at those who have been buying bitcoin of late
0:21:20 > 0:21:23and those who think John McDonald would be a good Chancellor, they
0:21:23 > 0:21:37overlap too closely. You cannot deny the graph. You cannot deny the
0:21:37 > 0:21:40exponential growth in the price of bitcoin, but we mustn't confuse the
0:21:40 > 0:21:46price of something with its value. It's a bubble. I'm short Dominic's
0:21:46 > 0:21:54book is a great work of fiction. A work of fact was written in 1841
0:21:54 > 0:21:58called extraordinary illusions. We've been here before. This will
0:21:58 > 0:22:02burst.Your acidic, clearly, but is your book a book of fiction in the
0:22:02 > 0:22:07way it's been described?That's a rather damning indictment from
0:22:07 > 0:22:10someone who's never even read my book. Interestingly, you down the
0:22:10 > 0:22:16technology, you've never used it. You've never bought bitcoin. You
0:22:16 > 0:22:21find this with the bitcoin doomsayers. It's always inevitably
0:22:21 > 0:22:29people who are not familiar with the technology.Waits...Are you
0:22:29 > 0:22:35familiar with it?I have a Ph.D.. I'm a capitalist. I would hate to
0:22:35 > 0:22:39stand in the way of people making money...People will have made money
0:22:39 > 0:22:46on bitcoin.There is a theory creeping in here. Let's not conflate
0:22:46 > 0:22:52owning bitcoin with owning block chain.The greater argument, bitcoin
0:22:52 > 0:22:56has been the greatest moneymaking opportunity any of us will ever see
0:22:56 > 0:23:00in our lifetimes. Who's the greater fool? The guy who's made money or
0:23:00 > 0:23:05the guy who's stood aside?What about people who have lost money?
0:23:05 > 0:23:09Because they have. It is extremely vulnerable and prone to illegal
0:23:09 > 0:23:12activity and to the Lord.You're absolutely right and you're looking
0:23:12 > 0:23:19at somebody who has lost money in bitcoin.Why do you still believe in
0:23:19 > 0:23:25it?As I originally said to you, it is cash for the Internet. The reason
0:23:25 > 0:23:31those bitcoin were stolen from me was my own ignorance in security.
0:23:31 > 0:23:35What you say about financially ignorant people currently
0:23:35 > 0:23:39speculating on bitcoin, I would go along with that. It is a mania.
0:23:39 > 0:23:42People are investing in bitcoin who have no experience whatsoever with
0:23:42 > 0:23:49it. And anyone who does speculate it should familiarise themselves with
0:23:49 > 0:23:54the technology first and be aware that by holding bitcoins you are
0:23:54 > 0:23:58doing the Internet equivalent of holding cash. If you held large
0:23:58 > 0:24:04amounts of cash, you would put it in a safe, a bank...My 12-year-old son
0:24:04 > 0:24:07was trading with his friends two or three years ago, football picture
0:24:07 > 0:24:11cards. He got bored of it and the current generation who are trading
0:24:11 > 0:24:17bitcoin will get bored.Will they come if they're making money?They
0:24:17 > 0:24:20keep holding on to the position saying it will go up again. No one
0:24:20 > 0:24:24is suggesting there haven't been profits but it's a zero-sum. You
0:24:24 > 0:24:29make money because flog it.If there were regulation, could it work and
0:24:29 > 0:24:34more of a fad?No. We have enough currencies in the world will stop
0:24:34 > 0:24:40the fact that western grizzlies have no yield because interest is zero,
0:24:40 > 0:24:44that will change. Normal service will resume shortly.I don't see how
0:24:44 > 0:24:49it could ever be a replacement as cash or as another currency.I'm not
0:24:49 > 0:24:52suggesting that, I'm saying it's cash for the Internet. That was its
0:24:52 > 0:24:59original purpose but it's morphed into something much bigger. The
0:24:59 > 0:25:03current system of money is there are all sorts of false with it. It's
0:25:03 > 0:25:07broken. You said it's a zero interest rate situation that will
0:25:07 > 0:25:10fix itself. We'd been there for nearly ten years and there's very
0:25:10 > 0:25:15little sign of it changing. This is a system of money backed by
0:25:15 > 0:25:19mathematical proof. It cannot be debased or quantitatively eased. You
0:25:19 > 0:25:23can't suppress interest rates. You can't print it. It can be stolen,
0:25:23 > 0:25:29absolutely.It hasn't caught on in a massive way.Its tulips. The base is
0:25:29 > 0:25:36narrow.It's interesting, because the 17th-century bitcoin of its day
0:25:36 > 0:25:42work tulip bulbs. People invested massively and suddenly the interest
0:25:42 > 0:25:48went pop.There is no underlying function to tulips.Will the bubble
0:25:48 > 0:25:55burst?As always I take my leave from the Economist and I do because
0:25:55 > 0:25:59people spend a lot of time working on it. Bitcoin, I wouldn't spend too
0:25:59 > 0:26:05much time on it. You have to get in and out and it is difficult. The
0:26:05 > 0:26:08underlying theory of crypto currencies will be a development in
0:26:08 > 0:26:12our lifetimes I think there is something underlying.I'm not
0:26:12 > 0:26:16denying its mania and it's gone in way excess of what its value is, but
0:26:16 > 0:26:23it has real world use. .Com was a bubble.And it burst!
0:26:23 > 0:26:26Now, it's panto time and we all know the story
0:26:26 > 0:26:28of Cinderella and how she's desperate to attend the ball.
0:26:28 > 0:26:32Well, my next guest was also hoping to go to the ball, but has been told
0:26:32 > 0:26:34by the Conservative party - rather than the wicked
0:26:34 > 0:26:35step-sisters - that he can't.
0:26:35 > 0:26:38And just a warning - the pictures you're about to see do
0:26:38 > 0:26:41contain flashing images.
0:26:41 > 0:26:43Charlie Mullins, from Pimlico Plumbers
0:26:43 > 0:26:46and Conservative party supporter and donor, has been told he can no
0:26:46 > 0:26:48longer attend the exclusive Black and White ball,
0:26:48 > 0:26:52held to fundraise for the Conservative Party.
0:26:52 > 0:26:54Pictured here attending last year's event, Mr Mullins had wanted
0:26:54 > 0:26:58to have a table at the event costing £15,000.
0:26:58 > 0:27:02But when he went to book he was told he was no longer welcome.
0:27:02 > 0:27:05He believes it's due to his criticism of Theresa May,
0:27:05 > 0:27:13but hasn't been given an exact reason by the party.
0:27:13 > 0:27:16We did ask the Conservatives if they could tell us why
0:27:16 > 0:27:19Charlie Mullins had been declined a table at the ball but they did not
0:27:19 > 0:27:21want to comment or provide anyone for an interview.
0:27:21 > 0:27:23Charlie Mullins joins us now.
0:27:23 > 0:27:26How disappointed are you?I'm not really that disappointed. At the end
0:27:26 > 0:27:31of the day, I think it's very childish, necessary. I've been a
0:27:31 > 0:27:35Tory donor for many years, gone to various different parties with them
0:27:35 > 0:27:41and all of a sudden, they're telling me you're not welcome.Do you its --
0:27:41 > 0:27:45do you think it's because of your support to remain in the EU?I'm not
0:27:45 > 0:27:49happy about that but evidently it's because of my views that I don't
0:27:49 > 0:27:53think she's doing a great job at the moment.And you been quite explicit
0:27:53 > 0:27:57in those views. We certainly aren't a fan of Theresa May. Tell us some
0:27:57 > 0:28:05of the things you said.I think we need a stronger leader or will end
0:28:05 > 0:28:09up with Jeremy Corbyn.She's got to go over her own sake, it's
0:28:09 > 0:28:14embarrassing, she's not only weak but her is hobbling the UK. This is
0:28:14 > 0:28:16totally your entitlement to say these things, but do you think that
0:28:16 > 0:28:21is what led to this?Undoubtably. I've been told it's because of
0:28:21 > 0:28:25outspoken comments. Let's be fair. Andrew, you're very outspoken and
0:28:25 > 0:28:30you and Kevin argue like man and wife!Are you talking about Kevin
0:28:30 > 0:28:40Maguire?Yes! I'm sure you still invite you to his Christmas party.
0:28:40 > 0:28:44Is it childish of the Conservative Party not to accept money from
0:28:44 > 0:28:50Charlie Mullins?I certainly don't think it's anything to do with
0:28:50 > 0:28:55Charlie's views on the EU. Some of the Cabinet are remain as will stop
0:28:55 > 0:29:00they'll be there en masse.What do you think the reason is?It to do
0:29:00 > 0:29:07that with that, Andrew. Brexit leave or stay, what they're saying is they
0:29:07 > 0:29:11don't like what you're saying about her. I'm only saying what a lot of
0:29:11 > 0:29:14people are thinking and she needs people like me to put the point
0:29:14 > 0:29:19across that if you aren't doing the job right, everyone else is being
0:29:19 > 0:29:22lovely, lovely. She should get on to Boris and these people who are
0:29:22 > 0:29:27backstabbing hair and not me.Why do you want to go if you think it's a
0:29:27 > 0:29:31disaster? Why do you want to go to the Conservative fundraiser?I want
0:29:31 > 0:29:36to put money in and make sure they stay in power will stop when she had
0:29:36 > 0:29:41the snap election we put quite a few quid in for a few MPs. I'm very much
0:29:41 > 0:29:44behind the Conservatives. I'm just saying I don't think she's the lady
0:29:44 > 0:29:48to be the leader.You said on a blog that she is politically dead, maybe
0:29:48 > 0:29:51some will do the decent thing and take her out. Perhaps party
0:29:51 > 0:29:54officials may not want you sitting near her at the dinner.She's being
0:29:54 > 0:29:59bullied. At the conference she was being bullied, everything was going
0:29:59 > 0:30:06wrong for her, and people are backstabbing hair. .Shouldn't the
0:30:06 > 0:30:10government be doing more to encourage business people?I think
0:30:10 > 0:30:14they should. Charlie has a successful business.You think you
0:30:14 > 0:30:20should be allowed to go?I think it's a hideous do, it's so ghastly.
0:30:20 > 0:30:24That's your choice. I think you should go because you live it up.It
0:30:24 > 0:30:28is about being a critical friend, isn't it?It is, I sent ambiguity
0:30:28 > 0:30:33and I think it's a mixture of a fundraiser and a social event. Most
0:30:33 > 0:30:35people go, they're going to have criticisms of Theresa May. They
0:30:35 > 0:30:40might want another leader, the Yate, Boris crowd who rattle their
0:30:40 > 0:30:46jewellery. If you are of the view that she's a complete disaster, it
0:30:46 > 0:30:51seems funny. This is an event she will be the big guest.Final words
0:30:51 > 0:30:55to you.The summer party a couple of months ago, David Davis on the
0:30:55 > 0:31:03table, but in 15 grand, spent a few quid and was being told to f-off.On
0:31:03 > 0:31:08that note, thank you.
0:31:08 > 0:31:11Now, as you'll know - when you fill out the census,
0:31:11 > 0:31:13you have to tick a box to state your national identity.
0:31:13 > 0:31:16At the moment, the options available are English, Scottish,
0:31:16 > 0:31:17Northern Irish and Welsh.
0:31:17 > 0:31:18But could that be about to change?
0:31:18 > 0:31:21This week a delegation from Cornwall council came to Westminster to call
0:31:21 > 0:31:24for Cornish identity to be recognised with their own tick-box
0:31:24 > 0:31:32on the next census.
0:31:34 > 0:31:40Welcome to The Daily Politics. What are you calling for?We'd like to
0:31:40 > 0:31:46see Cornish identity recognised the same as Welsh, Scottish and Irish
0:31:46 > 0:31:51identity. In 2014 the Conservative-led coalition
0:31:51 > 0:31:54recognised the Cornish as the national group. They told us we
0:31:54 > 0:32:00would be treated the same as the Irish, the Scots the Welsh. We
0:32:00 > 0:32:04should have that come forward as well as the other Celtic groups.
0:32:04 > 0:32:07What material difference will it make having a tick box on the
0:32:07 > 0:32:11census?First about fairness. What is the point about the Government
0:32:11 > 0:32:15saying they will recognise the Cornish as a group if we are there
0:32:15 > 0:32:20after ignored. It is about statistics showing if you are
0:32:20 > 0:32:23Cornish in Cornwall you are more likely to be in a deprived community
0:32:23 > 0:32:27than if you are not. 14% of the Cornish population wrote Cornish in.
0:32:27 > 0:32:37We want to be able to record everyone who is Cornish so we can
0:32:37 > 0:32:40understand the factors of our community.How do you think the
0:32:40 > 0:32:44campaign is going? Do you think you'll get your way?It is a
0:32:44 > 0:32:48difficult campaign,ly not lie. There's a lot of groups of different
0:32:48 > 0:32:52ethnic origins looking to get some sort of inclusion within the census.
0:32:52 > 0:32:56So we are working hard. We've put further information to the accepts
0:32:56 > 0:33:00can. They have promised further meetings. We are hopeful they will
0:33:00 > 0:33:05follow through. The real key thing is the UK Government has recognised
0:33:05 > 0:33:10the Cornish officially I was done through David Cameron, supported by
0:33:10 > 0:33:13the Chancellor, right through to local MPs. We want to see the action
0:33:13 > 0:33:19that should follow from.Having done that, giving them recognition
0:33:19 > 0:33:22officially, what should it mean in practise?That is the difficulty
0:33:22 > 0:33:26that quite often Governments will come under pressure from various
0:33:26 > 0:33:33groups of people who have very strong identity, as your guest is
0:33:33 > 0:33:37lining there. I suppose gathering material for the census it would be
0:33:37 > 0:33:41fine to say you can have as many boxes as you like. People might
0:33:41 > 0:33:47laugh about it. I can see front columns in the Daily Mail. If people
0:33:47 > 0:33:53have an identity and want to express it. When you say, oh, this group of
0:33:53 > 0:33:57people, by virtue of being Cornish n this case, are suffering. How do you
0:33:57 > 0:34:02then balance that against incomers into the area? It could end up being
0:34:02 > 0:34:08divisive. I wouldn't like to see us go down the road on that one.What
0:34:08 > 0:34:14is your response to that?Frankly, that is completely wrong. The point
0:34:14 > 0:34:19of the census is to find out all manner of information so politicians
0:34:19 > 0:34:23can put forward policies and initiatives. Maybe they find that
0:34:23 > 0:34:28certain things are not what we anticipate them to be. The reality
0:34:28 > 0:34:32is you need information to go forward to do what is right for the
0:34:32 > 0:34:35communities and everyone who lives in those communities.
0:34:35 > 0:34:37Thank you for joining us today.
0:34:38 > 0:34:41For the next half an hour we're going to be focussing
0:34:41 > 0:34:42even more on Europe.
0:34:42 > 0:34:43We'll be discussing.
0:34:43 > 0:34:46First though here's our guide to the latest from Europe -
0:34:46 > 0:34:49in just 60 seconds.
0:34:49 > 0:34:52Theresa May began the week with a Brexit spring in her step
0:34:52 > 0:34:59following that deal to move talks on to the next stage.
0:34:59 > 0:35:02But by mid-week, she'd suffered her first defeat in the Commons,
0:35:02 > 0:35:04when MPs voted to give parliament a legal guarantee of
0:35:04 > 0:35:06a vote on the final deal struck with Brussels.
0:35:06 > 0:35:08The European Parliament passed a motion of bringing
0:35:08 > 0:35:13the move to phase two, but not all MEPs were so supportive.
0:35:13 > 0:35:16Theresa the appeaser has given in on virtually everything.
0:35:16 > 0:35:19Elsewhere, the new Polish Prime Minister has said his dream
0:35:19 > 0:35:22is to re-Christianise the EU, calling for a return to proper
0:35:22 > 0:35:25values in an interview with a catholic TV channel.
0:35:25 > 0:35:29The European Commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker,
0:35:29 > 0:35:31is facing an investigation over a case involving an alleged
0:35:31 > 0:35:35illegal wiretap when he was Prime Minister of Luxembourg.
0:35:35 > 0:35:38And Emmanuel Macron hosted 50 countries and one cool little kid
0:35:38 > 0:35:40at a climate change summit in Brussels, warning the world
0:35:40 > 0:35:43is losing the battle.
0:35:43 > 0:35:46A notable absentee from the gathering was the US
0:35:46 > 0:35:48President Donald Trump - but don't worry, Arnold
0:35:48 > 0:35:54Schwarzenegger was there instead.
0:35:54 > 0:35:57One of the stories we saw there was about
0:35:57 > 0:36:04the new Polish Prime Minister - who wants to 're-Christianise'
0:36:04 > 0:36:08The EU. What do you think about that?It is the no-mates category in
0:36:08 > 0:36:16Europe. It is a big country. It has turned in toward. It does have
0:36:16 > 0:36:21problems within its legal system. Its politics has become rather
0:36:21 > 0:36:25hideous and views of minorities is not good. It is funny we are
0:36:25 > 0:36:29focussing on it, given we had this argument when Germany opposed
0:36:29 > 0:36:34Turkish entry to the EU. If there was an in fairness to Poland clause
0:36:34 > 0:36:40here, Angela Merkel had a strong Christian identity. To be Christian
0:36:40 > 0:36:44to go to church. It meant there was a Christian underpinning to the EU,
0:36:44 > 0:36:51which historically was true. That is one of the reasons why she kept, the
0:36:51 > 0:36:55Austrians, and others kept the Turks out. It doesn't feel like it is the
0:36:55 > 0:37:01right language to be talking now.Do you agree with that? As Anne has
0:37:01 > 0:37:04said, it seems a far cry from the days we were talking about accession
0:37:04 > 0:37:10for Turkey. That was an issue during the EU referendum. Now we have the
0:37:10 > 0:37:16new Prime Minister in Poland saying he wants the EU to return to
0:37:16 > 0:37:21traditional Christian routes?A as a good Catholic boy I ought to welcome
0:37:21 > 0:37:27it. But the politics in Poland has turned very far to the right and I
0:37:27 > 0:37:30think it's got an unhealthy undertone. Sounds like it could be
0:37:30 > 0:37:39an unhealthy undertone. I would be concerned...
0:37:39 > 0:37:42Now European Union leaders have formally agreed to allow Brexit
0:37:42 > 0:37:48talks to progress to the next phase.
0:37:48 > 0:37:53Lots of issues including trade, justice and the list goes on. The
0:37:53 > 0:38:06BBC's Adam Fleming caught up with Brexit negotiate after the...
0:38:06 > 0:38:10You will get your new guidelines. Your new instructions.
0:38:12 > 0:38:18When do you think we'll have the transition period agreed?The
0:38:18 > 0:38:23transition, the beginning of next year.And when will we know for
0:38:23 > 0:38:28definite what it is? Will we know by March?Wait and see.
0:38:34 > 0:38:37And joining me now to discuss all this is the MEP Seb Dance,
0:38:37 > 0:38:39the deputy leader of Labour in the European Parliament.
0:38:39 > 0:38:41He's here in the studio, whilst the Conservative leader
0:38:41 > 0:38:43in the European Parliament, Ashley Fox MEP joins
0:38:43 > 0:38:45me from Bristol.
0:38:49 > 0:38:54We want a deep and special partnership with the European Union.
0:38:54 > 0:38:59During that transition period I think we want to maintain
0:38:59 > 0:39:02equivalence with the customs union, equivalence with the single market,
0:39:02 > 0:39:06so that during that two-year period firms don't need to adjust their
0:39:06 > 0:39:12rules again. And then...Sorry, does that mean still taking rules from
0:39:12 > 0:39:16the European Court of Justice and freedom of movement?I think that is
0:39:16 > 0:39:22something to be negotiated.And what is your view?Well, it is something
0:39:22 > 0:39:28to be negotiated. I would expect freedom of movement to continue from
0:39:28 > 0:39:33the two years after we leave to the end of the transition period.Right.
0:39:33 > 0:39:39Seb, Ashley says that needs to be negotiated. Formulating the
0:39:39 > 0:39:43transition will be part of that. It requires the approval of the
0:39:43 > 0:39:48European Parliament. What is the mood in Brussels and Strasbourg from
0:39:48 > 0:39:55European MPs?Well I suppose the mood is one of caution. There is a
0:39:55 > 0:40:00slight air of relief we've managed to get some progress now, obviously.
0:40:00 > 0:40:04There was a stage towards the end of last week where panic stations were
0:40:04 > 0:40:07setting it in because it looked very bad indeed. At least there is a
0:40:07 > 0:40:12sense of progress. Ultimately the Government has caved in on so much
0:40:12 > 0:40:14already, the expectation is the transition period will be another
0:40:14 > 0:40:18example of that and it will be the status quo and the only difference
0:40:18 > 0:40:22is we will not be able to make any of the rules, we will be applying.
0:40:22 > 0:40:28In what way has the Government caved?Full regulatory agreement,
0:40:28 > 0:40:34that is the post France session stage. That, in effect, means the
0:40:34 > 0:40:40customs union. In order to get regulatory agreement covered by the
0:40:40 > 0:40:45Good Friday Agreement you need to imply meant a lot of the rule rule
0:40:45 > 0:40:50the single market and the customs union.Do you accept there is a
0:40:50 > 0:40:54strong possibility that Britain remains in the customs union for
0:40:54 > 0:41:01many years?No I think he's talking complete nonsense there. We will
0:41:01 > 0:41:06leave the customs union and the single market. We'll have a bespoke
0:41:06 > 0:41:09agreement between the UK and the EU. It is interesting that the Italian
0:41:09 > 0:41:14Prime Minister has already said we need a tailor-made solution for the
0:41:14 > 0:41:18United Kingdom. I have to say it must be difficult being a Labour MEP
0:41:18 > 0:41:22at the moment because you have to be permanently miserable, permanently
0:41:22 > 0:41:27talk down our country. And Mrs May has done really well. She's a
0:41:27 > 0:41:31foremid-able politician.I would like to know what magical way of
0:41:31 > 0:41:34squaring the circle you have come up with. That is what the text says.
0:41:34 > 0:41:38Unless you can come one a way of achieving full alignment through
0:41:38 > 0:41:44another means which does not involve that. You've had 18 months to come
0:41:44 > 0:41:50up with this magical solution and nobody has. I am not miserable. I am
0:41:50 > 0:41:55fascinated to how this magic trick will be performed.Seb has not
0:41:55 > 0:41:59clearly read the agreement. It says we will maintain alignment for those
0:41:59 > 0:42:06areas where there is north-south co-operation. 12 areas, some are
0:42:06 > 0:42:15fair lay minor, by waterways and -- fairly minor, like waterways.
0:42:15 > 0:42:19So there are challenges relating to agriculture, that we absolutely will
0:42:19 > 0:42:24not be staying in the customs union. Isn't the truth that actually Labour
0:42:24 > 0:42:29wants to remain in all but name within the single market and the
0:42:29 > 0:42:34customs union and actually you welcome the debate around this issue
0:42:34 > 0:42:39of full alignment regarding the border between Ireland and Northern
0:42:39 > 0:42:43Ireland because this is Labour's game plan, is not to recognise the
0:42:43 > 0:42:46Brexit referendum outcome.You can say game plan all you like. I would
0:42:46 > 0:42:49like to stay in the European Union. I am not making any bones about
0:42:49 > 0:42:52that. That is obviously up to the British people, if they decide what
0:42:52 > 0:42:56they get at the end of this process is not what they voted for on 23rd
0:42:56 > 0:43:00June, I think there is a case to say, is this what you want to do? It
0:43:00 > 0:43:04is up to me and others like me to make the case.Isn't that Labour's
0:43:04 > 0:43:12strategy?It is to effectively minimise the effect of what Brexit
0:43:12 > 0:43:22to do. A hard Brexit - that is not in the country's interest.There is
0:43:22 > 0:43:24a difficulty that during that transition period you will not be
0:43:24 > 0:43:28able to strike any free trade agreements with other countries, not
0:43:28 > 0:43:35EU countries - that is correct, isn't it?I anticipate we will be
0:43:35 > 0:43:39able to par take in trade negotiations. Until the transition
0:43:39 > 0:43:45period is concludes, which I would imagine to be the first quarter of
0:43:45 > 0:43:502021 those new trade arrangements cannot take effect.Do you know what
0:43:50 > 0:43:55the Government's vision will be for that trade between Britain and the
0:43:55 > 0:44:01EU?It has been described as Canada, plus, plus, plus. If you look at the
0:44:01 > 0:44:06free trade agreen you will see that 98% of tariff lines are abolished
0:44:06 > 0:44:12and set at zero. We see no reason why it cannot be zero. We want an
0:44:12 > 0:44:19ambitious service chapter on top of. ThatSptd isn't that the problem -
0:44:19 > 0:44:24when you think what the British services make up and Canada, I take
0:44:24 > 0:44:30your point about plus, plus, plus, but the deal with Canada did not
0:44:30 > 0:44:36involve services?We are in complete regulatory alignment with the EU.
0:44:36 > 0:44:39All our financial service providers have equivalent regulation to the
0:44:39 > 0:44:44EU.That is the point, we are come from a totally different starting
0:44:44 > 0:44:48point to Canada and therefore, this idea that it is going to be
0:44:48 > 0:44:52impossible, that it might take eight years is wishful thinking on that
0:44:52 > 0:44:57part. Not at all. That is the point, but applied from the other way. We
0:44:57 > 0:45:00have regulatory alignment because we are in the EU. Those regulations are
0:45:00 > 0:45:05decided by the EU. Do we think we will be deciding what the European
0:45:05 > 0:45:07financial services regulations will be once we are outside of the
0:45:07 > 0:45:10institutions that set those? Of course we won't. But we will be
0:45:10 > 0:45:13applying them. That is the point. This is not taking back control at
0:45:13 > 0:45:20all. Do
0:45:21 > 0:45:26Do you think they will accept being part of the court of justice for a
0:45:26 > 0:45:29few years, for a few years in that sense?
0:45:34 > 0:45:37I think most of them, they're unhappy about it but have accepted
0:45:37 > 0:45:42it because it's pretty minuscule. I think Labour is in real difficulty
0:45:42 > 0:45:46because John McDonald said the other day he wants to not be the single
0:45:46 > 0:45:50market, to be in a different single market. They bit keep changing their
0:45:50 > 0:45:54position and I think they want to keep us in the single market and the
0:45:54 > 0:46:00Customs market.What do you think phase one agreement has effectively
0:46:00 > 0:46:05done in terms of the customs union? Fox talks about north-south
0:46:05 > 0:46:11alignment, the DUP ensured it was east-west, as well. The Good Friday
0:46:11 > 0:46:14Agreement, that's a huge chunk of what the Brexiter is said we would
0:46:14 > 0:46:21do trade deals on.How do you see this term full alignment influencing
0:46:21 > 0:46:26our future relationship? In a nutshell, it will sort of dictate
0:46:26 > 0:46:29how closely aligned our rules and regulations and standards are to the
0:46:29 > 0:46:35ones of the EU.I think it depends. It's a great phrase, it reminds me
0:46:35 > 0:46:41of the variable geometry. It can be made to be anything you want it to.
0:46:41 > 0:46:44In the position you're coming from, it makes no difference, if you want
0:46:44 > 0:46:49full alignment you might as well not have bothered, but of course you
0:46:49 > 0:46:52wouldn't have bothered as you would have remained at you've been very
0:46:52 > 0:46:55open stop
0:46:59 > 0:47:02You have to have a language which allows people to make deals which
0:47:02 > 0:47:06isn't at the same time saying, well, you might as well just accept
0:47:06 > 0:47:10customs union and single market. You don't have to be very far on the
0:47:10 > 0:47:13Brexit curve to say those things are not acceptable to me. I think you're
0:47:13 > 0:47:18right that it's a bit of a forge but your colleague on the other side in
0:47:18 > 0:47:22Brussels also has a point. You do actually have to come up with
0:47:22 > 0:47:28instruments which are going to make this at least as less likely to lead
0:47:28 > 0:47:32to any future big problems, even if you can't use it to cut every
0:47:32 > 0:47:36problem through right now.Ashley Fox, do you think the EU blinked in
0:47:36 > 0:47:41the end in order to get to the end of phase one?I don't think either
0:47:41 > 0:47:48side blinked. I think these were difficult negotiations. Mrs May
0:47:48 > 0:47:53showed herself to be a formidable negotiator and we've reached a
0:47:53 > 0:48:04compromise. Mrs May is doing a good job stopping white --do you think
0:48:04 > 0:48:09David Davis is a good negotiator? Yes and he's doing a good job. MEPs
0:48:09 > 0:48:12and politicians who pretend to support their country take delight
0:48:12 > 0:48:16in every small difficulty.Why didn't you vote for the motion
0:48:16 > 0:48:22approving progress to phase two. You say we oppose it.We voted in favour
0:48:22 > 0:48:29of the paragraph that called... Because it was full of a whole load
0:48:29 > 0:48:37of nonsense put in. That is not the purpose of the European Parliament.
0:48:37 > 0:48:40Lets leave it there for the moment.
0:48:40 > 0:48:42There have always been tensions in the EU between federalists
0:48:42 > 0:48:44who want deeper integration in the bloc and those
0:48:44 > 0:48:46who value member state sovereignty above all else.
0:48:46 > 0:48:48Britain traditionally sat in the second camp -
0:48:48 > 0:48:51but now that we're leaving, could plans for European federalism
0:48:51 > 0:48:52be moving ahead at pace?
0:48:52 > 0:48:53Today at the European Council Summit, leaders
0:48:53 > 0:48:58are expected to discuss ways to deepen eurozone integration.
0:48:58 > 0:49:00On the table is the possible creation of a budget for
0:49:00 > 0:49:05the eurozone, as well as a finance minister to represent the bloc.
0:49:05 > 0:49:07Earlier this week the European Council adopted
0:49:07 > 0:49:10the creation of a permanent defence and security
0:49:10 > 0:49:13cooperation network, known as PESCO.
0:49:13 > 0:49:1625 EU states have signed the defence pact, with only Malta,
0:49:16 > 0:49:20Denmark and the United Kingdom choosing not to take part.
0:49:20 > 0:49:24PESCO will integrate military planning, weapons development
0:49:24 > 0:49:28and operations that will rely on a 5 billion euro defence fund.
0:49:28 > 0:49:30Last week Martin Schulz, the leader of Germany's centre-left
0:49:30 > 0:49:33Social Democrats or SPD and former European Parliament President,
0:49:33 > 0:49:40called for the creation of a United States of Europe.
0:49:40 > 0:49:43Schulz told SDP delegates that he wanted EU member states
0:49:43 > 0:49:46to sign off on a "constitutional treaty" committing them to take
0:49:46 > 0:49:52steps towards a federal Europe.
0:49:52 > 0:49:56Do you think it'll catch on, this idea of a United States of Europe?
0:49:56 > 0:50:01It has always been there in the minds of advanced federalists. I
0:50:01 > 0:50:04know it depends on what you call a federalist but it was there and it
0:50:04 > 0:50:08was there for the vision of Europe stretching back over 20 years. I
0:50:08 > 0:50:12spent a lot of time in Germany recently looking at Angela Merkel's
0:50:12 > 0:50:20situation and possibly life after her. Martin Schulz who was sat on a
0:50:20 > 0:50:24low percentage, very bad election, he need something that from his
0:50:24 > 0:50:28perspective, he's very pro-European, Brussels is where he's come from
0:50:28 > 0:50:32into this part of German politics. He wants to offer something bold and
0:50:32 > 0:50:35visionary and I think his view is you go full tilt for it, stop saying
0:50:35 > 0:50:40you don't want it, that helps you get on with Emmanuel Macron and you
0:50:40 > 0:50:43can move something forward.Do you think greater integration is the way
0:50:43 > 0:50:49it's heading?In many areas, yes, and in many it isn't. I think we
0:50:49 > 0:50:56will probably see the emergence of a multisport Europe.Do you support
0:50:56 > 0:51:07that quiz Siam at the end of the day, the EU is member statesand the
0:51:07 > 0:51:10states decide what they are comfortable with at any given point.
0:51:10 > 0:51:16Frankly, there will always be federalist and always those who want
0:51:16 > 0:51:20the sovereignty of member states above all else. The buck stops with
0:51:20 > 0:51:24member states.As a result of that conflict, do you see it happening in
0:51:24 > 0:51:28terms of having a budget Minister and there is already a sort of
0:51:28 > 0:51:33Foreign Minister, but that sort of close cooperation on defence? In the
0:51:33 > 0:51:39end, national values will trump for many countries within the EU.I
0:51:39 > 0:51:43would agree with that. My concern over this structured colons --
0:51:43 > 0:51:50script should defence is to Nato. If it results in European nation state
0:51:50 > 0:51:54spending more on defence than that is to be welcomed. What we don't
0:51:54 > 0:51:59want are several more divisions of bureaucrats who don't actually add
0:51:59 > 0:52:03to defence capability.But doesn't it make sense to have those
0:52:03 > 0:52:08countries remaining in the EU coming closer together?For the Eurozone,
0:52:08 > 0:52:12you're probably right. Because the euro was set up initially very
0:52:12 > 0:52:16badly, with economies that went convergent and too many states,
0:52:16 > 0:52:21we've seen a great many problems. They're probably does need to be a
0:52:21 > 0:52:24greater fiscal capacity for the Eurozone. I'm just delighted the UK
0:52:24 > 0:52:29isn't part of that.Right. Would you like to be part of it if Britain
0:52:29 > 0:52:34were to stay in the EU? Would you have been a fan of being part of
0:52:34 > 0:52:38that closer integration?Close integration in defence makes sense
0:52:38 > 0:52:42given the levels of threat we have. We got to counter this idea that
0:52:42 > 0:52:45it's somehow undermines Nato. Britain and France for example have
0:52:45 > 0:52:54already conducted operations under a joint EU flag. That hasn't
0:52:54 > 0:53:00undermined our contribution to Nato or the security of the North
0:53:00 > 0:53:03Atlantic Treaty organisation in any way shape or form. You can have
0:53:03 > 0:53:11multiple layers.Would it be a good thing?Know and if this line would
0:53:11 > 0:53:14have been around before the referendum, I think the referendum
0:53:14 > 0:53:19result would have been even bigger for Leave. We don't like the idea of
0:53:19 > 0:53:24Brussels taking even more power away from sovereign Parliament.Is there
0:53:24 > 0:53:32also a problem with Germany, or it seems like from Martin Schulz in the
0:53:32 > 0:53:35position, that he is to control everything within the EU? Do you
0:53:35 > 0:53:39think that's the problem?Yes, there's a problem with Germany, they
0:53:39 > 0:53:44run the whole show
0:53:44 > 0:53:50there's a problem with Germany, they run the whole show?Germany is
0:53:50 > 0:53:57obviously the economic powerhouse and has tried. The Franco German
0:53:57 > 0:53:59relationship is not at his strongest and there is a challenge for France
0:53:59 > 0:54:05but this is not the position of Angela Merkel. The CDU is likely to
0:54:05 > 0:54:08head the government as we go forward, it is a position of the
0:54:08 > 0:54:14underbidder.You take offence of this idea that Germany runs the
0:54:14 > 0:54:18show.Germany is the largest economy full stop incidentally, we were on
0:54:18 > 0:54:21course to be the biggest economy in the EU if we had stayed. You could
0:54:21 > 0:54:26see Britain -- say that Britain runs the show but we'll never know. The
0:54:26 > 0:54:30idea Germany runs it is absurd. Look at it through German eyes. Here we
0:54:30 > 0:54:34have the biggest military power in the EU leaving at a time when we
0:54:34 > 0:54:41have threats from Russia, less than concrete assurances from our good
0:54:41 > 0:54:44allies the USA and president trump. There is a lot of nervousness
0:54:44 > 0:54:50around.We have Anglo German military cooperation.And we will
0:54:50 > 0:54:59continue to.The layer of Corporation makes sense will stop
0:54:59 > 0:55:01David Cameron spent a lot of time negotiating tracks get concessions
0:55:01 > 0:55:09in the EU, spent most of his time in Bonn.Will have to say goodbye to
0:55:09 > 0:55:11our two guests.
0:55:11 > 0:55:17Now, were donors almost goners?
0:55:17 > 0:55:18Who writes this?
0:55:18 > 0:55:21A vote in the European Parliament this week seeking to ban phosphates
0:55:21 > 0:55:23from frozen kebab meat fell just short of the majority needed.
0:55:23 > 0:55:26There were three votes in it and the British MEPs did their bit
0:55:26 > 0:55:29to save the frozen vertical meat spits - or kebabs as they're known
0:55:29 > 0:55:31by us ordinary folk.
0:55:31 > 0:55:32Here's a flavour of the debate.
0:55:32 > 0:55:34TRANSLATION:Instead of saying the EU's banning kebabs -
0:55:34 > 0:55:37that's not right - the media and companies should be
0:55:37 > 0:55:39asking the commission why the commission is making our food
0:55:39 > 0:55:41less healthy and worse because that is ultimately
0:55:41 > 0:55:43what the whole story's about.
0:55:43 > 0:55:45TRANSLATION:The Greens and the Social Democrats
0:55:45 > 0:55:47are simply spreading panic.
0:55:47 > 0:55:49The reason why that's not the case is that phosphates
0:55:49 > 0:55:51are allowed in many foods, but they're obviously naturally
0:55:51 > 0:55:55present in many foods.
0:55:55 > 0:55:58If they were such a great risk to human health,
0:55:58 > 0:56:04we'd all have been ill long ago.
0:56:04 > 0:56:06And Ibrahim Dogus, the founder of the British Kebab Awards
0:56:06 > 0:56:11is here to chew this all over.
0:56:11 > 0:56:15Those ponds! Are you relieved?We are indeed. We welcome the decision
0:56:15 > 0:56:21taken by the Parliament to let kebabs be made the way they wear.
0:56:21 > 0:56:28What are phosphate is used in making Donna kebabs?Within a very small
0:56:28 > 0:56:34industry in the frozen kebabs industry stop macro -- they don't
0:56:34 > 0:56:40use phosphates in it. It is to keep meat moist and give it a bit of
0:56:40 > 0:56:44flavour will stop its an additive and there are many others used in
0:56:44 > 0:56:47many other industries.If it was only being used for a small number
0:56:47 > 0:56:52would it have had that much of an impact if it has been banned?Not a
0:56:52 > 0:56:56huge impact in Britain but in Germany, the frozen give out
0:56:56 > 0:57:00industry is bigger than in Britain. In Britain we have more restaurants
0:57:00 > 0:57:05and takeaways who make their own kebabs in-house rather than buying
0:57:05 > 0:57:08frozen. The frozen kebabs is still part of our industry and it would
0:57:08 > 0:57:14have been bad to ban the use of phosphates.Basta band phosphate,
0:57:14 > 0:57:18but how unhealthy is it is to have phosphates as part of the process?
0:57:18 > 0:57:22The European Food Standards Agency made an assessment is back in 2013
0:57:22 > 0:57:31and they confirmed there is no health risk for any products that
0:57:31 > 0:57:35are using phosphates, it doesn't cause any direct health risks to
0:57:35 > 0:57:44consumers at all-star white are you celebrating with a big plate of
0:57:44 > 0:57:49devoutseverybody is feeling hungry at this moment. What's your view on
0:57:49 > 0:57:55this great Donna kebabs debate?And not a great eater of them but if
0:57:55 > 0:58:04you're happy, I'm happy.Do you eat kebabs honest?I have from my
0:58:04 > 0:58:09teenage son so if they could get rid of the ones with as many additives
0:58:09 > 0:58:13as possible I'd be happier, if you could nudge the industry in that
0:58:13 > 0:58:20direction.British MEPs helped the industry here. They are forming a
0:58:20 > 0:58:24function in the EU.Two more years to go and they can carry on doing
0:58:24 > 0:58:27good work and then our own Parliament can sort it out.You
0:58:27 > 0:58:30can't underestimate the work they're doing at the moment. Did you lobby
0:58:30 > 0:58:34for this?No direct lobbying, but we knew our MEPs would be sensible
0:58:34 > 0:58:42people.What made you think that exactly?Most of our MEPs have done
0:58:42 > 0:58:47great work for many years so we expected them to
0:58:47 > 0:58:50great work for many years so we expected them to.
0:58:50 > 0:58:54That's all for now, thanks to all my guests, and goodbye.