0:00:39 > 0:00:44Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:44 > 0:00:49Theresa May gathers the Cabinet's big beasts to talk about the UK's
0:00:49 > 0:00:51post-Brexit relationship with the EU - will they be able
0:00:51 > 0:00:54to agree a way forward?
0:00:54 > 0:00:57A "culture change" is needed to ensure safety is prioritised over
0:00:57 > 0:00:59costs in the construction industry - that's according to the author
0:00:59 > 0:01:03of an interim report into the catastrophic
0:01:03 > 0:01:06Grenfell fire disaster.
0:01:06 > 0:01:07Are poor regulations still putting residents
0:01:07 > 0:01:09of tall buildings at risk?
0:01:09 > 0:01:19Labour had all women shortlists in 1997 to increase the number
0:01:19 > 0:01:21of female MPs, so why not introduce all-disabled shortlists to get more
0:01:21 > 0:01:23disabled people into parliament?
0:01:23 > 0:01:25We'll hear from the campaigner who says that's exactly
0:01:25 > 0:01:28what should be done.
0:01:28 > 0:01:33OK you can vm buttercup. Not sure what mum will say about it.That
0:01:33 > 0:01:37Theresa May is how to negotiate.
0:01:37 > 0:01:40And some say British Politics has been a bit
0:01:40 > 0:01:42like Pantomime this year - so that's where we're taking
0:01:42 > 0:01:48the Daily Politics later...
0:01:48 > 0:01:50All that in the next hour of knock-about yuletide
0:01:50 > 0:01:56entertainment for the whole family.
0:01:56 > 0:01:58And joining us for the duration, Labour's pantomime Dame,
0:01:58 > 0:02:00Stephen Kinnock, and Westminster's Prince Charming, Suella Fernandes.
0:02:00 > 0:02:05Welcome to the show.
0:02:05 > 0:02:07So, Theresa May has another busy week ahead
0:02:07 > 0:02:12in the run up to Christmas.
0:02:12 > 0:02:16Following the agreement in Brussels last week that 'sufficient progress'
0:02:16 > 0:02:20had been made on Phase One talks, the Prime Minister will today be
0:02:20 > 0:02:24meeting with her 'Brexit cabinet' to discuss the next phase.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27But tomorrow, she will meet with the whole Cabinet to discuss
0:02:27 > 0:02:29the 'end-state' for the UK's relationship with the EU
0:02:29 > 0:02:36and they aren't exactly singing from the same hymn sheet.
0:02:36 > 0:02:39Her Chancellor, Philip Hammond, said that the UK's relationship
0:02:39 > 0:02:41with the EU would be 'largely unchanged' and that we will
0:02:41 > 0:02:44'effectively recreate the status quo'.
0:02:44 > 0:02:46Boris Johnson, meanwhile, believes the UK needs something
0:02:46 > 0:02:49'new and ambitious' giving 'zero tariffs and frictionless trade'
0:02:49 > 0:02:51as well as the 'freedom to decide our own regulatory
0:02:51 > 0:02:55framework'.
0:02:55 > 0:02:57Theresa May herself has said that she wants a 'new,
0:02:57 > 0:02:59deep and special partnership' with the EU and ruled out
0:02:59 > 0:03:02EEA-style membership.
0:03:02 > 0:03:07The EU have their own ideas for Brexit, where the EU's chief
0:03:07 > 0:03:09negotiator Michel Barnier said there is 'no way' the UK will be
0:03:09 > 0:03:14allowed to 'cherry-pick' and have a bespoke deal with the EU.
0:03:14 > 0:03:17Jeremy Corbyn is also under pressure from his Shadow Cabinet over
0:03:17 > 0:03:22the issue of a second referendum.
0:03:22 > 0:03:24'The Labour Party does not support' one, claimed
0:03:24 > 0:03:26Shadow Home Secretary Diane Abbott.
0:03:26 > 0:03:28But on the same topic, Deputy Leader Tom Watson said
0:03:28 > 0:03:30'you shouldn't rule anything out'.
0:03:30 > 0:03:34Let's speak to our political correspondent, Ben Wright.
0:03:36 > 0:03:41Another busy Brexit week. What will be agreed and changed this week?
0:03:41 > 0:03:44Very little I think. These are preliminary discussions by the
0:03:44 > 0:03:49Cabinet. Amazingly, it is the first time that the Cabinet has formally
0:03:49 > 0:03:54got together and talked about its view regarding the final trading
0:03:54 > 0:03:57position the Government wants between the EU and the UK after
0:03:57 > 0:04:01Brexit. 18 months on from the referendum. This easy are
0:04:01 > 0:04:05discussions which might make the discussions around phase one, the
0:04:05 > 0:04:10money, the rights of EU citizens look like a picnic. There are big
0:04:10 > 0:04:12disagreements within the Cabinet about the fundamental trading
0:04:12 > 0:04:16relationship the UK should look for. There is also a big disagreement at
0:04:16 > 0:04:21the moment, it seems, between the UK and the EU's starting points. The
0:04:21 > 0:04:27UK, Theresa May is clear she wants something bespoke, something which
0:04:27 > 0:04:31combined Norwegian-style access with a Canadian style trade agreement.
0:04:31 > 0:04:36The EU say that is not on the cards. You have to take something based on
0:04:36 > 0:04:40a model which exists. They are starting far apart. Time is short.
0:04:40 > 0:04:45The EU will come forward with their proposal, their starting position by
0:04:45 > 0:04:49March. So the Government has to work pretty quickly on this.What about
0:04:49 > 0:04:53the Cabinet? How far apart are they in terms of that future
0:04:53 > 0:04:58relationship?Well, we believe there are some significant differences,
0:04:58 > 0:05:03crucially around the question of how much convergence there should be
0:05:03 > 0:05:06with the EU's regulatory system after Brexit. At the moment there is
0:05:06 > 0:05:10complete convergence because we are in the single market. The
0:05:10 > 0:05:13fundamental issue is how much EU, sorry our Cabinet ministers are
0:05:13 > 0:05:17willing to accept that in the future, after we have left, the two,
0:05:17 > 0:05:21well the EU and the UK will start to diverge and how that will be
0:05:21 > 0:05:26managed. What mechanisms will be in place. This is big fundamental
0:05:26 > 0:05:30stuff. I think there are those on Philip Hammond's side of the
0:05:30 > 0:05:35argument who want as much single market access as possible, with the
0:05:35 > 0:05:41po ten sham conditions and -- potential conditions. And others
0:05:41 > 0:05:45like Michael Gove who want more of a clean break and as a consequence
0:05:45 > 0:05:51have more freedom for the UK to do trade deals as a country no longer
0:05:51 > 0:05:54in the European Union. There are fundamental differences on how they
0:05:54 > 0:06:00will approach this question.Thank you very much.
0:06:00 > 0:06:04Suella Fernandes, Philip Hammond said our future relationship with EU
0:06:04 > 0:06:09will leave us largely unchanged and effectively recreate the status quo.
0:06:09 > 0:06:13Do you agree with him?In some respects there will be things we
0:06:13 > 0:06:18want to maintain with tesmt U. We want to maintain our commerce with
0:06:18 > 0:06:24the EU. We with are one of the biggest customers to EU countries of
0:06:24 > 0:06:28their goods. We want to keep that going. But there are definitely
0:06:28 > 0:06:33areas that we will want to diverge on. We want to come out of the
0:06:33 > 0:06:37common commercial policy which restricts our ability to design our
0:06:37 > 0:06:40own trade vision for the UK.Philip Hammond was saying that in reality
0:06:40 > 0:06:48won't happen. He said the UK won't technically or legal I will be in
0:06:48 > 0:06:51the customs union or single market. But we have committed the agreement
0:06:51 > 0:06:56at the end of last week an environment which will effectively
0:06:56 > 0:06:59recreate the status quo - what we have now.To correct you the
0:06:59 > 0:07:03Chancellor has said we will be leaving the customs union.That is
0:07:03 > 0:07:08what he said.He has said we will leave, we will leave the single
0:07:08 > 0:07:13market.Technically and legally, but in reality it will be effective I
0:07:13 > 0:07:17will be the same?The effect of leaving the customs union is we will
0:07:17 > 0:07:22have freedom over our trade policy. We will not be bound by the common
0:07:22 > 0:07:27commercial policy. We will not be subject to the common external
0:07:27 > 0:07:32tariff which applies to goods coming into the EU.Will we during the
0:07:32 > 0:07:36transition period?The implementation period, I should say,
0:07:36 > 0:07:42which is all contingent on what the end state is. So it is almost
0:07:42 > 0:07:45impossible to design an implementation period before you've
0:07:45 > 0:07:49agreed the final outcome. That is all subject to negotiations.You
0:07:49 > 0:07:55signed letter in September saying the UK must not pay into the EU
0:07:55 > 0:07:59budget during the implementation period and must be able to sign free
0:07:59 > 0:08:05trade deals from March 2019, but we will pay into the EU budge and we
0:08:05 > 0:08:10will not be able to -- EU budget and we will not be able to sign trade
0:08:10 > 0:08:16deals in 2019.I didn't sign a letter.A letter was circulated,
0:08:16 > 0:08:19asking for support from Conservative MPs to back those points.Yes.
0:08:19 > 0:08:24What's been agreed is we are going to be contributing as part of the
0:08:24 > 0:08:28financial settlement, which has been agreed by Theresa May. I suppose the
0:08:28 > 0:08:32agreement that's come forward in the last week or so from Theresa May.
0:08:32 > 0:08:37That represents progress. It enables us to move on to the next stage and
0:08:37 > 0:08:40nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. That is a crucial part of
0:08:40 > 0:08:45the whole deal.You have accepted that we will pay into the EU budget
0:08:45 > 0:08:50and not be able to sign the free trade agreements in March 2019?No,
0:08:50 > 0:08:58we are making contributions as are legally required by us under the
0:08:58 > 0:09:01financial framework and other basises founded in law. We will be
0:09:01 > 0:09:05leaving the customs union in 2019. As we will hear from Theresa May
0:09:05 > 0:09:10later today, or from the Government later today, there will be clarity
0:09:10 > 0:09:15on what our position is in terms of designing that trade deal. Otherwise
0:09:15 > 0:09:20the work of Liam Fox is redundant. A whole department has been set up,
0:09:20 > 0:09:24extensive energies have been put into scoping out our potential deals
0:09:24 > 0:09:29with other third party countries. All of that is necessary and it's
0:09:29 > 0:09:33not in vain. The Prime Minister herself took a trip to India very
0:09:33 > 0:09:38recently on a mission to look at what option there are for a trade
0:09:38 > 0:09:42deal. None of that means anything if we are not out of the customs union
0:09:42 > 0:09:49and not look at trade deals after 2019.So look at trade deals but
0:09:49 > 0:09:55there will not be any signed until March 2019?I open to what, I will
0:09:55 > 0:09:59not sit here and tie the Prime Minister's hands on anything. This
0:09:59 > 0:10:04is all subject to negotiation. What is agreed, is clear Government
0:10:04 > 0:10:08policy and garnered the unanimous support of the Government is we are
0:10:08 > 0:10:13leaving these blocks which do tie our hands, which do restrict us from
0:10:13 > 0:10:16exploring other trade routes.You did set out some red lines
0:10:16 > 0:10:20beforehand, so you will not make that a red line about Britain
0:10:20 > 0:10:25signing free trade deals during the next few years?I think it is very
0:10:25 > 0:10:31important that we are, after 2019, able to make concrete progress,
0:10:31 > 0:10:34tangible progress and advanced negotiations with other countries
0:10:34 > 0:10:39outside the EU. That is one of the biggest prizes that we stand to gain
0:10:39 > 0:10:43from our departure from the EU. I am confident that the Government is
0:10:43 > 0:10:47pursuing that aim as well.Do you think Brexit has actually been
0:10:47 > 0:10:52softened up in the last few weeks?I think we have seen a series of
0:10:52 > 0:10:56reality checks and the Government's approach to Brexit has been a
0:10:56 > 0:11:00mixture of bluster, posture and then capitulate.They have an agreement.
0:11:00 > 0:11:06But every single red line goes up in smoke when it comes to the first
0:11:06 > 0:11:10contangt with reality. First -- contact with reality. They said the
0:11:10 > 0:11:13divorce talks should be in parallel with the trade talks. That row was
0:11:13 > 0:11:17going to be the row of the summer. It lasted until about lunch time on
0:11:17 > 0:11:23the first day. They now recognise the need for a transition deal limit
0:11:23 > 0:11:28be a carbon copy of the status quo. The only thing we will not have is a
0:11:28 > 0:11:32seat at the table. If that is to take back control I am not sure what
0:11:32 > 0:11:36it means.We know that the Prime Minister is sticking to her guns
0:11:36 > 0:11:41that she set out in Lancashire house. The UK will leave the single
0:11:41 > 0:11:45market and will leave the Customs Union and she will not sign up or
0:11:45 > 0:11:49sign the country up to anything that looks like the European Economic
0:11:49 > 0:11:53Area.That is not going to happen. The transition deal will be a carbon
0:11:53 > 0:11:57copy of the deal. That is not up for negotiation. The European Union has
0:11:57 > 0:12:03been clear, if you read the...She said not part of the European
0:12:03 > 0:12:06Economic Area.Beyond the transition which could last longer than two
0:12:06 > 0:12:10years, by the way, I think that is up for negotiation. I think that we
0:12:10 > 0:12:13would, we would be much better off committing to the European Economic
0:12:13 > 0:12:18Area. It does actually give you maximum market access but also the
0:12:18 > 0:12:24opportunity to control free movement of labour. Articles 112 and 113 of
0:12:24 > 0:12:28the EEA agreement set that out clearly.David Cameron failed to get
0:12:28 > 0:12:31further when it come to migration. Do you think the Labour Party is
0:12:31 > 0:12:34moving to your position now, beyond the implementation period of
0:12:34 > 0:12:39actually remaining in the single market and the Customs Union in some
0:12:39 > 0:12:49sort of replica to the area?The European Economic Area is not the
0:12:49 > 0:12:55same as, you are not subject to... You cannot sign the free trade?If
0:12:55 > 0:13:02you move into EFTA as well, European free trade association, they can
0:13:02 > 0:13:06sign bilateral free trade deals. Iceland has a trade deal with China.
0:13:06 > 0:13:11We have to understand there is a way through this. It is about squaring
0:13:11 > 0:13:17the circle between market access and regulatory control. EFTA ETA is the
0:13:17 > 0:13:21best way to do that. There is a majority for it in Parliament. I
0:13:21 > 0:13:25hope that is the way to do it otherwise we will go off the edge of
0:13:25 > 0:13:29a cliff.Do you think that is acceptable, bearing in mind the
0:13:29 > 0:13:33referendum?To my mind it is not acceptable. That has been ruled out
0:13:33 > 0:13:39by the Prime Minister, because with that coming free movement of people
0:13:39 > 0:13:43and that was an important aspect. You say that article 112 is a
0:13:43 > 0:13:48mechanism to control free movement T only example is Lichtenstein, a
0:13:48 > 0:13:54population of 37,000 people. A very small mileage of Square Mileage of
0:13:54 > 0:14:00space and used in very exceptional circumstances, where there was a
0:14:00 > 0:14:04serious risk to the economy of the society in which case controls over
0:14:04 > 0:14:10migration were allowed. It is not the same as Britain's population -
0:14:10 > 0:14:1565 million people, a larger landmass.It is an emergency...We
0:14:15 > 0:14:20cannot say there is a serious risk posed by EU migrants. Our employment
0:14:20 > 0:14:27is very high. I don't think 112, what you make out is a viable option
0:14:27 > 0:14:32for the UK.Isn't it the case we could end newspaper a situation
0:14:32 > 0:14:37where the UK becomes a vasel state of the EU. We take all the rules and
0:14:37 > 0:14:42regulations but we don't have any input. We don't sit at the table?
0:14:42 > 0:14:45Two points T transition period we will take absolutely everything from
0:14:45 > 0:14:49the single market and the Customs union, we will not have a seat at
0:14:49 > 0:14:54the table. I campaigned passionately for remain. I think it is a great
0:14:54 > 0:15:00pity that the UK will not stay in the EU. What do we do now we must
0:15:00 > 0:15:03respect the result of the referendum? There is a way through
0:15:03 > 0:15:08this, which does actually give us a real opportunity to reform free
0:15:08 > 0:15:11movement of labour but also doesn't wreck the British economy by coming
0:15:11 > 0:15:16out of the single, out of access from the single market.What is
0:15:16 > 0:15:19Labour's policy on having a second referendum?
0:15:24 > 0:15:28We're not supporting a second referendum, there are valid reasons
0:15:28 > 0:15:34for not supporting one, if it was 52% remain, 48% lead, we would have
0:15:34 > 0:15:37expected those on the Leeds side to accept the result.White is deputy
0:15:37 > 0:15:43leader Tom Watson think that nothing should be ruled out when it comes to
0:15:43 > 0:15:49a second referendum?When the facts change, I change my mind, is the
0:15:49 > 0:15:55saying. New facts are coming out tonight. If we leave the EU, if we
0:15:55 > 0:15:59leave in March 2019, and we see a massive damaging impact on the
0:15:59 > 0:16:02economy, which many people predict would be the case, I do not believe
0:16:02 > 0:16:07so much and forecasting predictions, I think we had to see where we are
0:16:07 > 0:16:11but we are seeing thousands of jobs going down the drain, we are seeing
0:16:11 > 0:16:15foreign direct investment drying up and seeing market access being
0:16:15 > 0:16:21severely limited.Then you would change your mind?Any responsible
0:16:21 > 0:16:24government, whoever is in government at the time, is the responsibility
0:16:24 > 0:16:28of them to act in the national interest.Michel Barnier, Suella,
0:16:28 > 0:16:32said that the government would not get a bespoke deal. UK cannot cherry
0:16:32 > 0:16:38pick, we cannot have a no way of style agreement without freedom of
0:16:38 > 0:16:42movement and aspects of the Canada deal taking in services. What do you
0:16:42 > 0:16:47say to him?This is the first time that a nation has left the EU.I
0:16:47 > 0:16:53think that we have to be open to building what might not be... There
0:16:53 > 0:16:59might not be a particular model for it but I do think that Canada, that
0:16:59 > 0:17:03agreement struck with the EU last year, I think it does provide some
0:17:03 > 0:17:07really good grounds for optimism.He says you are not going to have that?
0:17:07 > 0:17:11Well, I don't know. He says that that it depends on a lot of people
0:17:11 > 0:17:15involved in the process. The Canada agreement was mutually signed up to
0:17:15 > 0:17:20by both sides. It is beneficial for both.But it did not take in
0:17:20 > 0:17:24services?That's true, and that is why we cannot just copy and paste
0:17:24 > 0:17:28Canada and say that it applies to the UK. It does have some good
0:17:28 > 0:17:35points, like an illumination of some tariffs but it does not quite cover
0:17:35 > 0:17:40services. 80% of our economy is services. That's a great opportunity
0:17:40 > 0:17:46for us.Are you worried that we will not get it?I'm not worried at all.
0:17:46 > 0:17:50I'm very optimistic, contrary to how Stephen feels. I think there has
0:17:50 > 0:17:53been huge progress made in showing both sides want to strike an
0:17:53 > 0:17:57agreement on what has been said to be complex issues. I think it bodes
0:17:57 > 0:18:02well for the future.And what do you make of the arguments that some of
0:18:02 > 0:18:05your colleagues should be deselected for rebelling on the EU withdrawal
0:18:05 > 0:18:10bill last week, are you supportive of that?No, I am not. I think they
0:18:10 > 0:18:14are our colleagues and I take them at face value. They've said that
0:18:14 > 0:18:18they wanted to improve legislation, it is disappointing that the
0:18:18 > 0:18:22government lost the vote on amendments seven, but I do think
0:18:22 > 0:18:27that we can all move forward. It's a continued dialogue and the
0:18:27 > 0:18:31government is listening to many members who had tabled amendments,
0:18:31 > 0:18:36responding substantively and, as a result, producing a bill which I
0:18:36 > 0:18:40think reflects many concerns in Parliament.Say you do not see them
0:18:40 > 0:18:46as traitors?I do not think it is fair to demonise them at all for
0:18:46 > 0:18:50carrying out something they feel passionate about.Did your
0:18:50 > 0:18:56constituents vote for a continuation on what Labour is calling the free
0:18:56 > 0:19:01movement of easy people, if that's what it means?No, for those who
0:19:01 > 0:19:05voted Leave, there were concerns about free movement of labour, but
0:19:05 > 0:19:10there is a real opportunity through the economic area to pull the
0:19:10 > 0:19:13emergency brake and put a reformed system in place. There is clear
0:19:13 > 0:19:18legal precedent for doing this and we would be coming out of the EU, so
0:19:18 > 0:19:21really negotiating on a different basis to the one that David Cameron
0:19:21 > 0:19:28was trying to push through back in 2016. I think there is a way of
0:19:28 > 0:19:33allaying concerns but we need a sensible and pragmatic approach, not
0:19:33 > 0:19:36one driven by the ideology of certain backbenchers in the
0:19:36 > 0:19:39Conservative Party.
0:19:39 > 0:19:40And for more reporting and analysis of Brexit,
0:19:40 > 0:19:44check out the BBC News website - that's bbc.co.uk/Brexit.
0:19:44 > 0:19:47A month after the Grenfell tragedy the government set up an independent
0:19:47 > 0:19:50inquiry into the risks of living in a tower block.
0:19:50 > 0:19:52Today preliminary results of that inquiry are being published.
0:19:52 > 0:19:54The report's author, Dame Judith Hackitt says a "culture
0:19:54 > 0:19:56change" is needed to ensure safety is prioritised over costs
0:19:56 > 0:19:58in the construction industry, that building regulations
0:19:58 > 0:20:08are confusing and the profession suffers from "competence" issues.
0:20:08 > 0:20:11The interim report tells us that what we have in place today is a
0:20:11 > 0:20:13system which is evolved over a number of years,
0:20:13 > 0:20:16it's overly complex, and that complexity doesn't lead to
0:20:16 > 0:20:24it being as effective as it needs to be.
0:20:24 > 0:20:27We're talking about a system where there's too much
0:20:27 > 0:20:30prescription, where there is a very heavily layered system of guidance
0:20:30 > 0:20:33currently, which is not helpful in terms of leading people
0:20:33 > 0:20:38to the right answer.
0:20:38 > 0:20:42So, my aim for the future is to create a much simpler and more
0:20:42 > 0:20:44straightforward system that would be easier for people to follow.
0:20:44 > 0:20:46But that needs to be re-enforced with a
0:20:46 > 0:20:49number of changes in behaviour, which will include a major culture
0:20:49 > 0:20:59change across all of the players in this.
0:21:02 > 0:21:03And the Chairman of the Local Government Association,
0:21:03 > 0:21:08Gary Porter, joins us now.
0:21:08 > 0:21:11Why is it so complicated at the moment? It's the way that the
0:21:11 > 0:21:15regulation and guidance has been drafted. We have several years of
0:21:15 > 0:21:19additional regulation and guidance being added, and no simplification.
0:21:19 > 0:21:25It's been a problem since 2006.Is it going to be easy for local
0:21:25 > 0:21:29authorities? Are they in a position to change the rules or at least put
0:21:29 > 0:21:33into practice recommendations?We cannot change the rules, the
0:21:33 > 0:21:37government has too.Ayew in a position to implement them?Where we
0:21:37 > 0:21:44we do do building control, they will be renewed. Within a week or two of
0:21:44 > 0:21:48the fire, we called for the regulations to be looked at. It was
0:21:48 > 0:21:51clear from test results coming in that there was a systemic failure
0:21:51 > 0:21:55across the country, that cannot be down to one or two individuals that
0:21:55 > 0:22:01were incompetent but the system being wrong.Or were regulations
0:22:01 > 0:22:05interpreted to suit themselves?I have only quickly read the report,
0:22:05 > 0:22:08the draft report. And out of the recommendations, there's only one I
0:22:08 > 0:22:13would disagree with not being strong enough, that's the ability for the
0:22:13 > 0:22:16industry to do desktop surveys and do a study not of real materials in
0:22:16 > 0:22:21real life circumstances but on computer modelling. That's one of
0:22:21 > 0:22:25the areas where we need to get to grips with this. Put in limited
0:22:25 > 0:22:32combustible materials on high-rise buildings will be full of
0:22:32 > 0:22:36difficulty. It's not for me to rewrite the rules but no
0:22:36 > 0:22:40combustibility.None at all but will that be what happens?I doubt it.Do
0:22:40 > 0:22:44you get what you pay for when it comes to these sorts of things?
0:22:44 > 0:22:49Definitely not. In some cases, some of the materials used would be more
0:22:49 > 0:22:55expensive and more dangerous. This isn't about cost-cutting, that's a
0:22:55 > 0:22:58red herring. Anybody who thinks that these buyers take place because
0:22:58 > 0:23:03people are saving money on materials used are incorrect.Do you accept
0:23:03 > 0:23:09that? That it isn't just about money?I think we've had a culture
0:23:09 > 0:23:14of privatisation of contracting out austerity. It creates a toxic
0:23:14 > 0:23:19combination which, I do not know whether there is a direct link from
0:23:19 > 0:23:24that culture to the tragic events of Grenfell. But I welcome what the
0:23:24 > 0:23:27report says about the need for a culture change. I do think our
0:23:27 > 0:23:34public services need the resources and empowerment to be able to take
0:23:34 > 0:23:39control of the process because the more you contract it out, the higher
0:23:39 > 0:23:45the risks to come.But we have heard that you can have more expensive
0:23:45 > 0:23:49materials and they can be more combustible. The link that you are
0:23:49 > 0:23:52talking about, if you cannot see a link between austerity and safety,
0:23:52 > 0:23:58why mention it?I think it is how it is managed and implemented.
0:23:58 > 0:24:04Companies will look to cut corners to cut costs, not in terms of
0:24:04 > 0:24:10materials but how they do their job. Can I refuse that point, there are
0:24:10 > 0:24:14no councils in this country who would endanger their lives of their
0:24:14 > 0:24:18residents to save a few pounds. No matter how hard done by and the fact
0:24:18 > 0:24:22that we are a couple of billion short on what we need to deliver
0:24:22 > 0:24:26services properly, fire safety is not an area that councils would
0:24:26 > 0:24:30compromise on. More buildings in the private sector are at risk of this
0:24:30 > 0:24:34than councils alone. There are 15 councils with buildings caught up in
0:24:34 > 0:24:39this. That's not to downplay that it is 15 councils but that's out of
0:24:39 > 0:24:42400. The vast majority of buildings affected by this fire, and going
0:24:42 > 0:24:46beyond this fire, they have safety concerns with high-rise buildings
0:24:46 > 0:24:52and will be in the private sector. So it isn't a case of public versus
0:24:52 > 0:24:57private, but private sector buildings, or people who own their
0:24:57 > 0:25:03own homes, they are in as much risk? In the case of Grenfell, there were
0:25:03 > 0:25:07a lot of red flags bring down by the residents and they felt that there
0:25:07 > 0:25:12were things happening in that building which caused serious
0:25:12 > 0:25:16concerns and action was not taken. I think the key challenge we have is
0:25:16 > 0:25:22making sure that accountability is right, that the report looks at this
0:25:22 > 0:25:26in the broadest possible terms, and we never see the awful and tragic
0:25:26 > 0:25:32mistakes happening and Grenfell ever again.Stephen has a point in so far
0:25:32 > 0:25:37as until October this year, they had not released funds to make tower
0:25:37 > 0:25:40blocks safe according to some councils when asking for funding for
0:25:40 > 0:25:47cladding and sprinklers. Why not?To date, I know that the government has
0:25:47 > 0:25:51responded extensively. There's nothing anyone can do to bring back
0:25:51 > 0:26:00the people who died.But they have not responded?The government set up
0:26:00 > 0:26:06a fund where if councils need help setting up installations there is a
0:26:06 > 0:26:09process where they can go to government and requests would be
0:26:09 > 0:26:13considered. I think that is the right thing to do.Are you reassured
0:26:13 > 0:26:16that there are not tower blocks in this country that are still at risk
0:26:16 > 0:26:22from these kinds of fires? There are people living in tower blocks that
0:26:22 > 0:26:27are in danger?I am reassured that tower blocks in the ownership of
0:26:27 > 0:26:30councils and housing associations have been identified and appropriate
0:26:30 > 0:26:34measures have been taken in the interim, like fire wardens with
0:26:34 > 0:26:3824-hour cover, one with a fire engine permanently outside of the
0:26:38 > 0:26:43building. The ones the state owns, I am perfectly comfortable that we are
0:26:43 > 0:26:46doing as much as we can to make it safe but the vast majority of
0:26:46 > 0:26:53buildings in the private sector, and some that we do not know where they
0:26:53 > 0:26:56are. We have called for those who did the testing to release all of
0:26:56 > 0:27:00the test failures they have got. They are refusing to release test
0:27:00 > 0:27:07failures. We do not know which materials are safe and what
0:27:07 > 0:27:12buildings are clouded with which materials.The report from Judith
0:27:12 > 0:27:17Hackitt describes a mindset of doing things as cheaply as possible, and
0:27:17 > 0:27:19passing on responsibility for problems and shortcomings to others.
0:27:19 > 0:27:25What do you say to that?I would refute that.That is what she has
0:27:25 > 0:27:32found.As a private sector person as well, I can guarantee that councils
0:27:32 > 0:27:36around the country are paying more than the private sector equivalent.
0:27:36 > 0:27:39Let's not look at the equivalent, are you trying to do things as
0:27:39 > 0:27:43cheaply as possible because, in all fairness, councils claim they have
0:27:43 > 0:27:47had budgets cut to the bone?As efficiently as possible, not as
0:27:47 > 0:27:54cheaply.Is that value for money?In the report, as it comes out, if she
0:27:54 > 0:28:02implicates councils on the basis of saving a penny to risk a pound, that
0:28:02 > 0:28:05is not what councils do. They take a long-term view of the investment
0:28:05 > 0:28:08they make in those homes. Grenfell had £8 million invested in it. If
0:28:08 > 0:28:11they were not spending money on the building, the fire would not have
0:28:11 > 0:28:15happened.What do you say about the efficiency of councils? And the one
0:28:15 > 0:28:21that oversaw the Grenfell Tower? Obviously there is a real need to
0:28:21 > 0:28:25ensure that standards are met, which is why a review of what standards
0:28:25 > 0:28:29are applicable is necessary. If those standards are higher than what
0:28:29 > 0:28:33is currently in place there's an added burden on councils to meet
0:28:33 > 0:28:39requirements.Should the government put fans behind it?This funding is
0:28:39 > 0:28:43available on a discretionary basis but if this is council owned
0:28:43 > 0:28:48property, tenanted out to individuals, then there is a burden
0:28:48 > 0:28:55on councils to undertake that cost. Would you be happy to do that?As
0:28:55 > 0:28:58part of day-to-day cost pressures, councils should account for that and
0:28:58 > 0:29:03it should be done so through the rent book. Unexpected issues, that
0:29:03 > 0:29:07is an unexpected issue, nobody would have covered that building and
0:29:07 > 0:29:11expected that, the government will have to mobilise funds, even if it
0:29:11 > 0:29:17is only with the local and national governments standing shoulder to
0:29:17 > 0:29:20shoulder, suing those who have broken rules to make it happen, this
0:29:20 > 0:29:25is not going to be about a few million or even today's numbers of 1
0:29:25 > 0:29:28billion, this will be into billions before we'd managed to resolve the
0:29:28 > 0:29:33issue from across the whole country. It's the most serious issue facing
0:29:33 > 0:29:36our housing stock since before the war.Is the Treasury prepared to put
0:29:36 > 0:29:42out this money?As I've said, the funding is available and
0:29:42 > 0:29:48case-by-case councils can make applications. There's that backdrop
0:29:48 > 0:29:51but as Gary recognises comedy private sector and private rented
0:29:51 > 0:29:54properties in the whole area, which are as of yet unidentified, we do
0:29:54 > 0:29:58not know the extent to which fire safety regulations are being met.
0:29:58 > 0:30:00Gary Porter, thank you.
0:30:00 > 0:30:04Now, Theresa May told the Commons last week that she wanted to make
0:30:04 > 0:30:07sure that disabled people who wanted to work are able to do so.
0:30:07 > 0:30:10But do disabled people feel able to go into political life and why
0:30:10 > 0:30:12are so few of them represented in our parliaments, assemblies
0:30:12 > 0:30:13and council chambers?
0:30:13 > 0:30:23Here's disability rights campaigner, Alice Kirby, with her soapbox.
0:30:23 > 0:30:25Let's go next door for Prime Minister's Questions.
0:30:25 > 0:30:28Thank you, Mr Speaker.
0:30:28 > 0:30:32At the last election, the Liberal Democrats made history
0:30:32 > 0:30:36by becoming the first political party to select
0:30:36 > 0:30:38a candidate using an all-disabled shortlist, now we need every
0:30:38 > 0:30:41political party to follow their lead.
0:30:41 > 0:30:45There are over 30 million disabled people in the UK.
0:30:45 > 0:30:48That means we make up 21%
0:30:48 > 0:30:51of the British population,
0:30:51 > 0:30:53but only six of our MPs define themselves as disabled, that
0:30:53 > 0:30:56is less than 1% of the House of Commons.
0:30:56 > 0:30:58And that's just not good enough.
0:30:58 > 0:31:03But the solution is simple.
0:31:03 > 0:31:05All disabled shortlists counter the over and
0:31:05 > 0:31:07subconscious prejudice that
0:31:07 > 0:31:11blocks disabled people from getting elected,
0:31:11 > 0:31:12or even putting themselves
0:31:12 > 0:31:15forward in the first place.
0:31:15 > 0:31:17Some people say we should just choose the
0:31:17 > 0:31:19best people for the job.
0:31:19 > 0:31:21You can still do that, it's just the people
0:31:21 > 0:31:28being picked are disabled.
0:31:28 > 0:31:31And the word disabled is not a synonym for
0:31:31 > 0:31:36incompetent, incapable or unskilled.
0:31:36 > 0:31:40In the 1990s, the Labour Party revolutionised politics by adopting
0:31:40 > 0:31:43all-women shortlists.
0:31:43 > 0:31:46It was controversial at the time but it
0:31:46 > 0:31:50clearly worked, as there are more women than ever in the Commons
0:31:50 > 0:31:52and not only in seats where they are used,
0:31:52 > 0:31:56and not only by parties who
0:31:56 > 0:32:02use them, because they've brought about a cultural change.
0:32:02 > 0:32:05Disabled people do not need mouthpieces or
0:32:05 > 0:32:08champions, we need MPs and ministers who truly understand the
0:32:08 > 0:32:12discrimination we face.
0:32:12 > 0:32:16Politicians need to reflect wider society.
0:32:16 > 0:32:18It's time MPs started truly representing
0:32:18 > 0:32:23the UK's biggest minority group.
0:32:23 > 0:32:30And Alice Kirby joins us now from our Sheffield studio.
0:32:30 > 0:32:34Alice, it is your position that Parliament can only truly represent
0:32:34 > 0:32:39disabled people if the Commons is a complete microcosm of wider society?
0:32:39 > 0:32:45That needs to be the goal. If we look at, it seems like we're always
0:32:45 > 0:32:48aiming to have gender equality in the Commons. I don't see why it
0:32:48 > 0:32:52should be different for disabled people.Do do you accept there may
0:32:52 > 0:32:59be more than six MPs who may not be visually disabled they may have
0:32:59 > 0:33:04dyslexia or hard of hearing and they are aware of the many struggles that
0:33:04 > 0:33:10disabled people face as a result?We only know of six MPs who have said
0:33:10 > 0:33:15they are publically disabled. Are probably more. That speaks to a
0:33:15 > 0:33:19larger issue of why politicians are not comfortable saying they are
0:33:19 > 0:33:24disable and is it because of this culture of disability that makes you
0:33:24 > 0:33:30weak and not a good politician? Something like an all-disabled short
0:33:30 > 0:33:34list will bring about a cultural change there, like all-women short
0:33:34 > 0:33:39lists, that would make these people more comfortable being identified as
0:33:39 > 0:33:46disabled publically.Do you agree it would help balance reputation?I
0:33:46 > 0:33:51have to say I really want more disabled people to get involved in
0:33:51 > 0:33:54public life and generally employment. But I do disagree with
0:33:54 > 0:33:59the principal of all short lists based on personal characteristics
0:33:59 > 0:34:02whether on disability, on gender, whether it is race or anything else.
0:34:02 > 0:34:09I just feel it doesn't really, it is not robust enough to enable the best
0:34:09 > 0:34:13people to come through. I think that people don't need favours being
0:34:13 > 0:34:17done, they can thrive on a level playing field with more
0:34:17 > 0:34:21encouragement and more engagement. That is really the challenge for us.
0:34:21 > 0:34:30They have not thrived so far.I would disagree. We have millions
0:34:30 > 0:34:33more disabled people in work. We are seeing progress. That should be
0:34:33 > 0:34:37encouraged and built upon rather than saying short lists for people.
0:34:37 > 0:34:42What do you say in response?. I don't think so. We have six MPs out
0:34:42 > 0:34:48of 650. If there was true reputation there would be 130 disabled MPs. I
0:34:48 > 0:34:51don't see how we will get there without the help of all disabled
0:34:51 > 0:34:55short lists. I don't think they are ideal, we should not use them
0:34:55 > 0:34:59long-term, but for now it is the way forward.When you talk to disabled
0:34:59 > 0:35:03people, Alice, what are the barriers they say that put them off trying to
0:35:03 > 0:35:11get into Parliament?I think there's a variety of reasons. I think, comes
0:35:11 > 0:35:15back down to discrimination. I don't feel parties feel confident
0:35:15 > 0:35:19selecting disabled people. I don't think disabled people feel confident
0:35:19 > 0:35:25to put themselves forward to be elected. There is the access to
0:35:25 > 0:35:30office fund which provided financial support for disabled people running
0:35:30 > 0:35:38elections to cover adjustments like taxi fare and sign language
0:35:38 > 0:35:44interpreters. A key area would be job sharing for MPs to allow MPs who
0:35:44 > 0:35:49wouldn't be able to work full-time to still run for officeDo you take
0:35:49 > 0:35:53the point like funding which would help accessibility should be
0:35:53 > 0:35:57reinstated by the Conservatives?It is not always about money. It is
0:35:57 > 0:36:03more about engagement. I think providing opportunities for work
0:36:03 > 0:36:05experience, for internships, for apprenticeships in Parliament, for
0:36:05 > 0:36:10including more people in the party, whether it is Conservative, Labour,
0:36:10 > 0:36:15Lib Dems, from a wide variety of backgrounds should be encouraged. My
0:36:15 > 0:36:18experience in the Conservative Party is that people of all abilities are
0:36:18 > 0:36:23welcome. And we have champions for disability rights. People who are
0:36:23 > 0:36:31disabled and also people who are not disabled, who don't have to have
0:36:31 > 0:36:36those characteristics.The Labour Party used all-women short lists -
0:36:36 > 0:36:39should they do it for disabled people?It is an interesting idea.
0:36:39 > 0:36:47E-I would like to see it piloted.It has been.Where?The Liberal
0:36:47 > 0:36:51Democrats selected their candidate from an all-disabled short list.I
0:36:51 > 0:36:55would very much like to see it piloted in the Labour Party. I think
0:36:55 > 0:37:00it would be, because you are looking for candidates who have experience
0:37:00 > 0:37:04of campaigning, knocking on doors. Ideally a good connection to the
0:37:04 > 0:37:08local area and political experience. So we do want to make sure that we
0:37:08 > 0:37:12have all of that. Now, as you say there are 13 million disabled people
0:37:12 > 0:37:15in this country. So no doubt within that talent pool we have it. But
0:37:15 > 0:37:18there is also a problem with getting people to come forward into politics
0:37:18 > 0:37:25in general. I think they look at the amount of abuse that politicians get
0:37:25 > 0:37:29on social media, the very polarised nature of the political landscape in
0:37:29 > 0:37:34which we live at the moment, at the complexity of it. Sometimes the very
0:37:34 > 0:37:37long working hours. So there are a lot of other barriers to getting
0:37:37 > 0:37:41people into public life. This is an interesting idea.Perhaps you could
0:37:41 > 0:37:46work with the Labour Party, help them do that pilot?I would love to.
0:37:50 > 0:37:52So, just seven sleeps until Christmas and if you're
0:37:52 > 0:37:55exhausted, you can bet Theresa May is after the Advent she's had.
0:37:55 > 0:37:57We know there are boy's jobs and girl's jobs
0:37:57 > 0:38:00in the May household, so while Mr May is making the mince
0:38:00 > 0:38:02pies and wrapping the presents, the Prime Minister has
0:38:02 > 0:38:05the un-enviable task of getting her cabinet to agree on Brexit.
0:38:05 > 0:38:08the un-enviable task of getting her Cabinet to agree on Brexit.
0:38:08 > 0:38:10I expect she'd prefer to be peeling the Brussels sprouts -
0:38:10 > 0:38:17though maybe she's had enough of Brussels....
0:38:17 > 0:38:18This afternoon Theresa May will make a statement
0:38:18 > 0:38:21to the Commons on last week's EU summit in Brussels.
0:38:21 > 0:38:27She'll tell MPs there is a "shared desire" to make rapid progress.
0:38:27 > 0:38:30Tomorrow morning, the Cabinet meets and it's expected they will discuss
0:38:30 > 0:38:33for the first time just what the final deal with the EU
0:38:33 > 0:38:35should look like, and on Wednesday MPs will debate whether the date
0:38:35 > 0:38:39and time should be put on the Brexit bill, it was expected to be a tricky
0:38:39 > 0:38:41moment for the government, however Conservative MPs
0:38:41 > 0:38:43are expected to rally around a compromise amendment
0:38:43 > 0:38:46proposed by Oliver Letwin.
0:38:46 > 0:38:48It's a busy day on Wednesday, because in the afternoon
0:38:48 > 0:38:50Theresa May is in front of the Liaison Committee,
0:38:50 > 0:38:53made up of chairs of each of the select committees,
0:38:53 > 0:38:56it will grill the Prime Minister on a range of issues.
0:38:56 > 0:39:03Finally, as Parliament breaks up for Christmas
0:39:03 > 0:39:06at the end of this week, it's likely that at some point
0:39:06 > 0:39:09we'll finally hear back from the Cabinet Inquiry into Damian
0:39:09 > 0:39:10Green.
0:39:10 > 0:39:12The First Secretary is being investigated over claims he made
0:39:12 > 0:39:14inappropriate advances towards a political activist
0:39:14 > 0:39:16and over allegations that pornography was found on a computer
0:39:16 > 0:39:17in his office.
0:39:17 > 0:39:21And it's wall-to-wall Christmas parties here in Westminster,
0:39:21 > 0:39:26but we've managed to drag away two journalists from the mulled
0:39:26 > 0:39:29wine and warm prosecco - Heather Stewart of the Guardian
0:39:29 > 0:39:32and the Financial Times's Sebastian Payne.
0:39:32 > 0:39:37Welcome. What sort of clarity do you think we will get as a result of
0:39:37 > 0:39:40these meetings with the smaller Cabinet and then the wider Cabinet
0:39:40 > 0:39:44about Britain's end state with Europe?To be honest, I fear not
0:39:44 > 0:39:47very much. Already those around Theresa May are playing down the
0:39:47 > 0:39:52idea that we will get any definite answer. We may be well into the New
0:39:52 > 0:39:56Year before we have anything too specific. We may get some mood
0:39:56 > 0:40:01music. We will hear a constructive discussion and they have bared some
0:40:01 > 0:40:05of their differences. I don't think we will get a clear outline of the
0:40:05 > 0:40:10trade deal they want to end up with. Do you agree? Will it be a case our
0:40:10 > 0:40:15relationship will remain unchanged as Philip Hammond has indicated, not
0:40:15 > 0:40:20just during the implementation but beyond?The key question is this
0:40:20 > 0:40:23issue of regulatory divergence, how much ability does the UK want to
0:40:23 > 0:40:27have to change rules after we leave the EU? The whole of the Cabinet
0:40:27 > 0:40:30wants the ability to change regulations. The question is, where
0:40:30 > 0:40:34do we start from? Do we start from a place of being exactly the same, or
0:40:34 > 0:40:39from day one, we will start to heave regulations out of the window and
0:40:39 > 0:40:45cutting that red tape? It will begin with a constructive discussion, that
0:40:45 > 0:40:51is how they will describe it, really it will not be until mid-or late
0:40:51 > 0:40:54January until we have any idea on where the Cabinet agrees on this
0:40:54 > 0:40:59issue. There are, there is no consensus. They have different
0:40:59 > 0:41:04opinions on this. Some side will have to give way. I think the
0:41:04 > 0:41:07Euro-sceptics have given away so much on the exit deal. They will be
0:41:07 > 0:41:12very firm on not giving away too much on what comes next.We've had a
0:41:12 > 0:41:15Government defeat over the meaningful vote. There is another
0:41:15 > 0:41:19row expected, although it may have been defused over the weekend by
0:41:19 > 0:41:22offers of a compromise over the date and time being written on to the
0:41:22 > 0:41:27face of the bill. Do you think that has meant the Government is safe in
0:41:27 > 0:41:33that vote, Heather?Yes, I think it probably S it is very odd, this was
0:41:33 > 0:41:38an amendment the Government tabled, to declare to make law that we would
0:41:38 > 0:41:45leave in March 2019. That outraged some of the sort of pro-EU MPs who
0:41:45 > 0:41:50felt, hang on, what if we have not done a deal which that date? What if
0:41:50 > 0:41:54the Government needs more days, isn't it crazy to lock us into that
0:41:54 > 0:41:58timetable? They looked like they could face defeat on this. Labour
0:41:58 > 0:42:01were readying themselves to defeat the Government. At the end of last
0:42:01 > 0:42:04week we had an amendment from Oliver Letwin, which looks as though
0:42:04 > 0:42:09probably he was doing that with the say so of Downing Street. He's
0:42:09 > 0:42:21managed to persuade the Brexit rebels in the Tory Party led by
0:42:21 > 0:42:26Dominic Greave. Do we expect the Government to have that amendment
0:42:26 > 0:42:31and hopefully we can go away without another row.Or another amendment.
0:42:31 > 0:42:39We will not have a Christmas amendment. Let's talk about Theresa
0:42:39 > 0:42:42May, Sebastian Payne, because during this year there were those who
0:42:42 > 0:42:45thought she wouldn't make it to Christmas, but she has made it to
0:42:45 > 0:42:49Christmas as Prime Minister. There are now reports saying she could be
0:42:49 > 0:42:53asked to stay on until 2021 by the Conservative Party, what do you
0:42:53 > 0:42:58think of that?It was Jeremy Corbyn who said he would be in Downing
0:42:58 > 0:43:01Street by Christmas. He's not got long to fulfil that prediction after
0:43:01 > 0:43:04the general election. This story does have a lot of sense because the
0:43:04 > 0:43:09Conservative Party really wants to try and get as much of Brexit as
0:43:09 > 0:43:13locked and loaded before the next general election in 2022. If Theresa
0:43:13 > 0:43:17May stays on to secure that comprehensive free trade deal they
0:43:17 > 0:43:21need to have to make Brexit look like a success, then see how it
0:43:21 > 0:43:26goes. The odd thing about Theresa May is we say this situation is
0:43:26 > 0:43:31unsustainable and it proves sustainably. Over and over again she
0:43:31 > 0:43:35hangs on. Will she make it through next year? And it looks like she
0:43:35 > 0:43:40will. If she makes it through next year she will probably make it
0:43:40 > 0:43:44through until the end of Brexit. Then it is where the party is at -
0:43:44 > 0:43:49how confident is it feeling? Conservative donors will not let her
0:43:49 > 0:43:53fight the general election. So I think she could go a year or two
0:43:53 > 0:43:56years in the run-up to that. They will not want to take the risk again
0:43:56 > 0:44:00of putting her in front of the ballot-box because all of those
0:44:00 > 0:44:06problems with her personality and what have you, are still there.
0:44:06 > 0:44:11Thank you very much. Do you think Theresa May should fight the next
0:44:11 > 0:44:15election?I think she should continue as the leader of the
0:44:15 > 0:44:20Conservative Party until she decides she want to step down. She's proving
0:44:20 > 0:44:25all the critics wrong. Everyone predicts gloom and crisis. Actually
0:44:25 > 0:44:29she defies them wrong. We have seen in the last week how she has managed
0:44:29 > 0:44:33to strike this agreement. People said it would be impossible. She's
0:44:33 > 0:44:40managed to bring yun in the party. -- unity in the party. You would
0:44:40 > 0:44:45like to see her there until 2021? For as long as she wants to stay in
0:44:45 > 0:44:50place.
0:44:50 > 0:44:52And there's something exciting coming up this evening -
0:44:52 > 0:44:54and it's happening in this very studio.
0:44:54 > 0:44:57My colleague Chris Mason is here to explain...
0:44:57 > 0:45:03R We are turning a podcast into a live event tonight. I know this
0:45:03 > 0:45:09studio is well known for the nerdometer going north-bound...Only
0:45:09 > 0:45:18occasionally!It goes to the moon and back. We are talking Brexit from
0:45:18 > 0:45:2545 minutes, from 6. 15pm. Going live on Radio 5live and on the News
0:45:25 > 0:45:32Channel later, and globally tomorrow. We have Laura and our
0:45:32 > 0:45:38Europe editor, Tony Connolly from RTE, around the issue of the Irish
0:45:38 > 0:45:43border and a panel of Brexit-casters. The people nerdy
0:45:43 > 0:45:49enough to devote clicking on their phone something which says
0:45:49 > 0:45:49"Brexit-cast."
0:45:54 > 0:46:00Do you listen to this podcast? It is a red letter day!Have you heard of
0:46:00 > 0:46:05it before?I have, but I haven't been invited on!We will rectify it
0:46:05 > 0:46:09in the New Year! That's my Christmas promise to you both!On the record!
0:46:09 > 0:46:13A lot of talk of amendments I am sure!
0:46:13 > 0:46:15Some said he wouldn't survive for more than a few months,
0:46:15 > 0:46:18but Jeremy Corbyn is set to enjoy, or endure, his third
0:46:18 > 0:46:19Christmas as Labour leader.
0:46:19 > 0:46:22Our Guest of the Day Stephen Kinnock was one of his critics.
0:46:22 > 0:46:24And here's the moment British politics went full Borgen,
0:46:24 > 0:46:26as Stephen received some political advice from his wife,
0:46:26 > 0:46:28the ex Prime Minister of Denmark, after the surprise result
0:46:28 > 0:46:30on election night.
0:47:28 > 0:47:31Stephen Kinnock receiving advice there. Wouldn't that have been the
0:47:31 > 0:47:35time to say what a great night that Labour had said and it was as a
0:47:35 > 0:47:38result of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.That is what I went on
0:47:38 > 0:47:42to say in the interview but also the story of the night is that it was
0:47:42 > 0:47:46complete humiliation for Theresa May.Jeremy Corbyn, if he had
0:47:46 > 0:47:49suffered losses at that election rather than Labour gaining seats,
0:47:49 > 0:47:54would he have put himself forward for the leadership? No. You wouldn't
0:47:54 > 0:47:59have considered it?You weren't going to launch a leadership bid?
0:47:59 > 0:48:02No, I've only been an MP for five minutes! I don't think that excludes
0:48:02 > 0:48:06you from standing for leadership! But did you realise at that point
0:48:06 > 0:48:09that everything was different in the way that you imagined before the
0:48:09 > 0:48:14exit poll?We spent a lot of that campaign being many points behind in
0:48:14 > 0:48:18the opinion polls, and even on the last night, there was only one poll
0:48:18 > 0:48:22predicting the result we got. I think that everybody was pretty
0:48:22 > 0:48:26surprised and taken aback by the result. I am the first to say that
0:48:26 > 0:48:32we underestimated Jeromy and overestimated Theresa May. What I
0:48:32 > 0:48:36thought was interesting about the programme was that it shows politics
0:48:36 > 0:48:39in its unvarnished and slightly chaotic, confusing state. Also, some
0:48:39 > 0:48:46comedy as well. With all due respect to you, Joe, sometimes these
0:48:46 > 0:48:49interviews, it is politician comes on and says what they are going to
0:48:49 > 0:48:53say and get their point across and you try and catch us out. What I
0:48:53 > 0:48:56like but Light on the wall documentaries is that it shows the
0:48:56 > 0:49:02reality. And a lot of time in the constituency seeing my brilliant and
0:49:02 > 0:49:06wonderful activists and constituents -- a fly on the wall documentary.
0:49:06 > 0:49:11That is politics.It is about revealing the truth and finding out
0:49:11 > 0:49:14what politicians genuinely think rather than what they present in
0:49:14 > 0:49:20public. Maybe we should come to your constituency and film! Do you think
0:49:20 > 0:49:26Jeremy Corbyn has had a good year?I think so. I think we've pushed the
0:49:26 > 0:49:29government so hard on things like Universal Credit, we've seen the
0:49:29 > 0:49:34government falling to pieces over Brexit. The keys to say, yes, there
0:49:34 > 0:49:38are two jobs for the opposition, hold the government's feet to the
0:49:38 > 0:49:41fire and say look, we are the government in waiting. We are able
0:49:41 > 0:49:46to answer the questions and we have a brilliant manifesto to build on.
0:49:46 > 0:49:50But we need to put more flesh on the bones and we need to take that
0:49:50 > 0:49:57forward.Do you accept Jeremy Corbyn's position is clear?
0:49:57 > 0:50:00Unassailable. He delivered on the campaign fantastically and I believe
0:50:00 > 0:50:05that he is tapping into the anger that people feel after seven wasted
0:50:05 > 0:50:10years of Tory failures and we need to build on that and turn it into a
0:50:10 > 0:50:13positive vision for the country. Yesterday, Michael was interviewing
0:50:13 > 0:50:20Tom Watson. About who would be leader if
0:50:20 > 0:50:25Labour won the next election. How long do you reckon before you are
0:50:25 > 0:50:29bridging's Deputy Prime Minister?I have no idea whether that would come
0:50:29 > 0:50:33to pass... I doubt it but if you are saying...You think that Labour will
0:50:33 > 0:50:37never win or you will never be given the chance?If I'm honest I think
0:50:37 > 0:50:40they will give it to Emily Thornberry!
0:50:40 > 0:50:48It's interesting to hear him said that, would you support Emily
0:50:48 > 0:50:52Thornberry being Deputy Prime Minister?Emily is a very talented
0:50:52 > 0:50:57politician, she's done a great job as Shadow Foreign Secretary. In the
0:50:57 > 0:51:00end, it's a matter for the democracy of our party, something that, I
0:51:00 > 0:51:06believe passionately in. I did not hear that interview, I have to
0:51:06 > 0:51:11admit. I am slightly taken aback hearing it right now, I think that
0:51:11 > 0:51:15Tom is an absolute star of our labour movement. He is doing a
0:51:15 > 0:51:19fantastic job as deputy leader. I hope that was not an indication of
0:51:19 > 0:51:24his own plans or mindset. He is a brilliant deputy leader.Listening
0:51:24 > 0:51:28to that, do you think he feels marginalised?I must admit that
0:51:28 > 0:51:34hearing that for the first time as I'd have done so now, it sounded a
0:51:34 > 0:51:40little like he was a bit resigned, and I find that both surprising and
0:51:40 > 0:51:46disappointing. As I say, he's an absolutely brilliant MP, deputy
0:51:46 > 0:51:49leader of our party and I think that he is the kind of guy that we
0:51:49 > 0:51:54desperately need to be having at the heart of our decision-making process
0:51:54 > 0:51:58as we shake a manifesto and shape the campaign to return a Labour
0:51:58 > 0:52:01government in the next election.But he was also wrong about Jeremy
0:52:01 > 0:52:08Corbyn initially?Well, who really knew? He saw that coming? We all
0:52:08 > 0:52:12made the mistake of believing the opinion polls and we made the
0:52:12 > 0:52:15mistake of thinking that Theresa May is a competent politician, and a
0:52:15 > 0:52:20competent campaign when clearly she is not. She is an absolute
0:52:20 > 0:52:24liability. Nobody really saw that coming until it happened. We had a
0:52:24 > 0:52:29brilliant manifesto full of sensible mainstream party policies and we
0:52:29 > 0:52:33were facing the most inept Conservative campaign in living
0:52:33 > 0:52:39memory.Has the party triumphed in terms of candidate elections? And
0:52:39 > 0:52:42aback actually, there's a very lively debate going on in the party
0:52:42 > 0:52:47but it's a mixed bag in terms of selections, I have seen selections
0:52:47 > 0:52:52for marginal seats where there has been mixed... The secret is, bring
0:52:52 > 0:52:58this together and that is the magic of the Labour Party and the labour
0:52:58 > 0:53:02movement, that's what we've done in the campaign. We have a little more
0:53:02 > 0:53:04magic for you in the show...
0:53:04 > 0:53:07Now - politics has been pure pantomine this year.
0:53:07 > 0:53:08Oh no, it hasn't!
0:53:08 > 0:53:09"Oh yes it has".
0:53:09 > 0:53:10And come to think about it.
0:53:10 > 0:53:11Where's Ellie?
0:53:11 > 0:53:13She's behind you!
0:53:13 > 0:53:21Oh yes, there she is....
0:53:21 > 0:53:27Hello! Hello ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, here I am wanting to
0:53:27 > 0:53:31tell you an interesting fairy tale today. It is a fairy tale about an
0:53:31 > 0:53:36MP who wanted to talk about her local theatre in a far-away,
0:53:36 > 0:53:40mystical and magical land called Enfield North. That MP went all the
0:53:40 > 0:53:44way to Parliament to talk about the pantomime, like all good stories
0:53:44 > 0:53:48things did not go to plan...
0:53:48 > 0:53:53Enfield is very fortunate to benefit from three local theatres. Indeed, I
0:53:53 > 0:53:58will be taking my grandchildren to the Millfield to enjoy Dick
0:53:58 > 0:54:09Whittington over Christmas.Point of order, Jane Ryan. I feel that I have
0:54:09 > 0:54:13inadvertently misled the house, Mr Speaker, during business questions,
0:54:13 > 0:54:17when I suggested that honourable and right honourable member 's could
0:54:17 > 0:54:20enjoy the pantomime of Dick Whittington at the Millfield Theatre
0:54:20 > 0:54:25this Christmas.That was the last pantomime Izod there. If honourable
0:54:25 > 0:54:30members wish to the Millfield Theatre, it would be to enjoy Jack
0:54:30 > 0:54:35and the Beanstalk!I would be very grateful to the honourable lady,
0:54:35 > 0:54:39that is an extremely helpful clarification! Moreover, in the
0:54:39 > 0:54:43process of offering that clarification to the house, the
0:54:43 > 0:54:50right honourable lady has served further to highlight the important
0:54:50 > 0:54:55work done by, and the continued pleasure brought about by the
0:54:55 > 0:55:03theatre which I believe to be in her own constituency.Oh, no, it isn't!
0:55:07 > 0:55:11Joan Ryan is with me, through the magic of television!What happened?
0:55:11 > 0:55:16I wanted to raise a point about funding for the arts, and in
0:55:16 > 0:55:19particular for local theatres, who have suffered a great deal from the
0:55:19 > 0:55:24local authority cuts imposed by the government. I did this in the
0:55:24 > 0:55:27business question, and I thought that I would mention Millfield
0:55:27 > 0:55:31Theatre, this fantastic local theatre, that we have in Enfield and
0:55:31 > 0:55:35the fact that we are having a fantastic pantomime again this year!
0:55:35 > 0:55:42But I got the name of the pantomime wrong! Oh, no, you didn't. Oh, yes,
0:55:42 > 0:55:47I did!Have you seen it yet?Not yet, I have tickets for myself, my
0:55:47 > 0:55:50husband and our grandchildren on the 20th of December and we are so
0:55:50 > 0:55:54looking forward to it. I've been to pantomime is here before and they
0:55:54 > 0:55:58are brilliant.It was pretty funny. Would you take a role if they
0:55:58 > 0:56:04decided to ask you next year?There are those who think that MPs appear
0:56:04 > 0:56:08in pantomime on a daily basis in parliament, but I can assure you
0:56:08 > 0:56:11that we don't, it's a serious business and I do not think that I
0:56:11 > 0:56:18could match the performers that we have here!What are you doing here?
0:56:18 > 0:56:27It is Mr Fleshcreep. We are all forgetful from time to time, you
0:56:27 > 0:56:35should not be held responsible.Do you have any politics?Yes, we have
0:56:35 > 0:56:38important lessons about community spirit and being true to yourself
0:56:38 > 0:56:43and what would happen to you if you are a naughty, naughty man... Nigel
0:56:43 > 0:56:48Farage! Sorry, I have a cold.And it's
0:56:51 > 0:56:59a busy time of year for you?It's optional to go for Matilda, and one
0:56:59 > 0:57:04doesn't like to be typecast when one is naughty and green.It is
0:57:04 > 0:57:08difficult. Food for thought... Nothing left to say, really!You've
0:57:08 > 0:57:15done and the puns, I got the fright of my life!I had the privilege of
0:57:15 > 0:57:22being at the rugby club in my constituency, their Christmas
0:57:22 > 0:57:29pantomime. They did Cinderella.Was it funny?It was absolutely
0:57:29 > 0:57:32hilarious. It was the least politically correct thing I've ever
0:57:32 > 0:57:38seen in my life, refreshingly so! Are in pantomime?I'm not, I do plan
0:57:38 > 0:57:45to go to one, I'm not sure yet, I could go to one in my constituency,
0:57:45 > 0:57:52a great place for pantomime.Thank you to both of you. But before we
0:57:52 > 0:58:00go, back over to you, LE.Take it away, team!
0:58:00 > 0:58:03# Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, it's what you have all been
0:58:03 > 0:58:10waiting for... # Greetings each and everyone
0:58:10 > 0:58:18# Young or old #
0:58:18 > 0:58:27# In the giant's lad... # I'm a simple lad from good stock
0:58:27 > 0:58:33# Saying that we don't have a large # Greetings each and everyone
0:58:33 > 0:58:39# Young or old # Nobody dares...
0:58:39 > 0:58:42# It's the place to be # Living here
0:58:42 > 0:58:51# Is the only time # You can hear the giant roaring...
0:58:51 > 0:58:56#
0:58:57 > 0:58:58MUSIC: Stayin' Alive by Bee Gees
0:58:58 > 0:59:01It was more than just a dance movie.