0:00:38 > 0:00:41Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43Theresa May declares war on plastic, as she wraps
0:00:43 > 0:00:47the Conservative Party in policies that promote conservation.
0:00:47 > 0:00:49But is her new-found environmentalism about
0:00:49 > 0:00:52politics or principle?
0:00:52 > 0:00:54Not such a happy New Year for the Health Secretary,
0:00:54 > 0:01:00as the NHS records its worst performance in more than a decade.
0:01:00 > 0:01:04Is more cash the answer to the health service's woes?
0:01:04 > 0:01:06They may have the most MPs, but the Conservatives are only
0:01:06 > 0:01:10the fourth biggest political party in the UK.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13Does it matter if they've fewer foot-soldiers than their rivals?
0:01:13 > 0:01:16And, leading Brexiteers pay a visit to the EU's chief
0:01:16 > 0:01:20negotiator in Brussels - and they came bearing gifts.
0:01:20 > 0:01:27But how well did the contents of the hamper represent modern Britain?
0:01:30 > 0:01:32All that in the next hour.
0:01:32 > 0:01:35And with us for the whole of the programme today,
0:01:35 > 0:01:38one of the few Conservative MPs who wasn't given a job in
0:01:38 > 0:01:41Conservative headquarters this week.
0:01:41 > 0:01:43But he did get the consolation prize of a Knighthood.
0:01:43 > 0:01:48Sir Graham Brady, welcome to the programme.
0:01:48 > 0:01:50Thank you very much.
0:01:50 > 0:01:52First today - you can't accuse the Government
0:01:52 > 0:01:53of lacking long-term thinking.
0:01:53 > 0:01:55Theresa May has launched a 25-year plan to improve
0:01:55 > 0:01:56the natural environment.
0:01:56 > 0:01:58At the centre of it a commitment to eliminate all avoidable
0:01:58 > 0:02:01plastic waste by 2042.
0:02:01 > 0:02:05She also wants to see plastic-free aisles in supermarkets,
0:02:05 > 0:02:08and today's announcements come on top of an extension
0:02:08 > 0:02:13of the 5p plastic bag charge to include smaller shops,
0:02:13 > 0:02:16and a ban on mirco-beads used in cosmetic products.
0:02:16 > 0:02:22Let's hear what the Prime Minister said this morning.
0:02:22 > 0:02:26In our comprehensive 25 year environment plan, we are setting out
0:02:26 > 0:02:30how we would protect and renew our natural inheritance for the next
0:02:30 > 0:02:35generation. How we will make our air and water cleaner, and our natural
0:02:35 > 0:02:39habitats more diverse and healthy. How we will create a better world
0:02:39 > 0:02:44for ourselves and our children. It's a national plan of action, with
0:02:44 > 0:02:49international ambitions. But what it really speaks to is something much
0:02:49 > 0:02:54more personal for each of us as human beings. That is the impulse to
0:02:54 > 0:02:59care for and nurture our own surroundings.Theresa May. Graham
0:02:59 > 0:03:03Brady, I don't remember the Prime Minister talking with such fervour
0:03:03 > 0:03:08about the environment. Is this really about principle and genuine
0:03:08 > 0:03:12concern, or political expediency? I'm sure it's genuine concern, and I
0:03:12 > 0:03:16think it's something we all feel. We all saw the pictures a few months
0:03:16 > 0:03:26ago of the island of plastic in the oceans. It's a disgrace.
0:03:26 > 0:03:28oceans. It's a disgrace. I saw it myself some years ago visiting Hong
0:03:28 > 0:03:31Kong, I saw a whole tide of plastic coming up on what would otherwise be
0:03:31 > 0:03:33a beautiful beach. It's something that is unacceptable and something
0:03:33 > 0:03:35that could get worse. We must make sure we do something to tackle it.
0:03:35 > 0:03:40Do you Black Mole regulation on companies and on consumers, to a
0:03:40 > 0:03:44certain extent, to deal with this plastics issue?Well, I want to see
0:03:44 > 0:03:48the plastic going, and I'm glad the Government is setting a target, we
0:03:48 > 0:03:52will do it by whatever means business are to achieve it.But do
0:03:52 > 0:03:58you support more regulation and tax -- taxes?It is clearly unacceptable
0:03:58 > 0:04:04to have this plastic building up, we need to tackle it, it's so
0:04:04 > 0:04:06unnecessary, many of us are driven mad when we go to the supermarket
0:04:06 > 0:04:12and we end up buying four apples in a plastic packs, it's crazy.Does it
0:04:12 > 0:04:20need legal backing? If you are driven mad by it and see it as
0:04:20 > 0:04:24unnecessary, it you are prepared to see higher taxes, should there be
0:04:24 > 0:04:27legal batting and sanctions for companies that don't abide?I'm very
0:04:27 > 0:04:33happy to see that if it proves necessary.What proves necessary?I
0:04:33 > 0:04:39want to see progress. If what it takes is legislation, if what it
0:04:39 > 0:04:43takes is taxation, then, yes, we should do something about it. I want
0:04:43 > 0:04:48to see a return to the paper bags at the greengrocer, when he used to do
0:04:48 > 0:04:54the twist...Some of them still do! 25 years, that's not a very speedy
0:04:54 > 0:04:59plan, is it? Nothing is going to happen immediately. When do you want
0:04:59 > 0:05:04to see progress by?
0:05:06 > 0:05:08to see progress by?The evidence of all of these things through history
0:05:08 > 0:05:10is that you set the target, a direction. I think the public is
0:05:10 > 0:05:13really quite engaged with this. I think there's a lot of sympathy with
0:05:13 > 0:05:16action to tackle this. People are encouraged in a direction, steps are
0:05:16 > 0:05:20taken, targets are set, it is quite likely these targets will be
0:05:20 > 0:05:27accelerated.You do think 25 years is too much of a long-term plan?
0:05:27 > 0:05:32Look, it's a start, it's a direction, like the plan to phase
0:05:32 > 0:05:35out the internal combustion engine. The fact the Government has said it
0:05:35 > 0:05:39and the direction is clear is very positive.You obviously feel
0:05:39 > 0:05:43strongly about it. Do you think it is enough to solve the party was my
0:05:43 > 0:05:45collection problem in terms of attracting different kinds of
0:05:45 > 0:05:51voters?-- the party's election problem. I have said before here in
0:05:51 > 0:05:55the studio that pretty much everything that could have gone
0:05:55 > 0:06:00wrong did go wrong in the campaign. But we still attracted 2.3 million
0:06:00 > 0:06:03more voters and got a share of the vote which gave Tony Blair and
0:06:03 > 0:06:07Margaret Thatcher big majorities. But you've lost your majority and
0:06:07 > 0:06:12there were groups of voters...We lost the majority and we had much
0:06:12 > 0:06:15stronger support in some parts of the population than others. Clearly
0:06:15 > 0:06:19we want to use some of these different narratives, we want to
0:06:19 > 0:06:24make clear that we are not only talking about exit from the European
0:06:24 > 0:06:28Union, as important as that is, we want to make it clear that we do
0:06:28 > 0:06:33engage with some other policy areas, and the announcements this morning
0:06:33 > 0:06:38are very important.You feel this is part of an electoral campaign and
0:06:38 > 0:06:41strategy to attract...Governments are there to govern, but it is
0:06:41 > 0:06:47always helpful if we do so in a way that the the public approves of.
0:06:47 > 0:06:48Now it's time for our daily quiz.
0:06:48 > 0:06:51Yesterday, former Ukip MEP Steven Woolfe led a delegation
0:06:51 > 0:06:53of pro-Brexit business figures in a meeting with Michel Barnier.
0:06:53 > 0:06:55And to show off exactly what Britain has to offer
0:06:55 > 0:06:58after leaving the EU, they gave the EU's Chief Brexit
0:06:58 > 0:07:01Negotiator a basket containing some of the best of Britain: The complete
0:07:01 > 0:07:03works of Wiliam Shakespeare, a biography of Winston Churchill,
0:07:03 > 0:07:07and some of this country's tastiest cuisine.
0:07:07 > 0:07:10But our question for today is: What wasn't in the hamper?
0:07:10 > 0:07:11Was it Cheddar cheese?
0:07:11 > 0:07:13PG Tips Eccles cakes?
0:07:13 > 0:07:16Or marmite?
0:07:16 > 0:07:24At the end of the show, Graham will give us the correct answer.
0:07:24 > 0:07:26I'm sure!
0:07:26 > 0:07:29Now, reports last week suggested that it had been a dire week
0:07:29 > 0:07:30for the NHS in England.
0:07:30 > 0:07:32Today we got the figures to prove it.
0:07:32 > 0:07:35A&E waiting times during December in England were the worst since
0:07:35 > 0:07:37the target was introduced in 2004. Official figures show 85.1%
0:07:37 > 0:07:45of patients were seen in four hours, which is below the 95% target.
0:07:48 > 0:07:52Last week, 55,000 non-urgent operations were cancelled,
0:07:52 > 0:07:56as winter pressure puts the NHS system under strain.
0:07:56 > 0:08:01And there is a growing consensus among health care professionals that
0:08:01 > 0:08:03a new long-term funding solution for the health
0:08:03 > 0:08:05service needs to be found, and now some politicians
0:08:05 > 0:08:08are joining the debate.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11Tory MP Nick Boles has called for taxes to be increased
0:08:11 > 0:08:15to pay for NHS funding. And at Prime Minister's Questions
0:08:15 > 0:08:19yesterday, Andrew Murrison called for a Royal Commission
0:08:19 > 0:08:21on its future.
0:08:21 > 0:08:23He proposes re-branding National Insurance as
0:08:23 > 0:08:25National Health Insurance, with funds going
0:08:25 > 0:08:30directly to the NHS. At the same time, the NHS
0:08:30 > 0:08:33Confederation has commissioned a comprehensive study
0:08:33 > 0:08:37into the funding needs of health and social care
0:08:37 > 0:08:42over the next 15 years. And Chris Hopson, the Head of NHS
0:08:42 > 0:08:44Providers, which represents the majority of NHS Trusts
0:08:44 > 0:08:46in England, had some strong words for the Government
0:08:46 > 0:08:51about the future of funding, too.
0:08:51 > 0:08:54We have now reached a watershed moment where it is clear the NHS can
0:08:54 > 0:08:57no longer deliver the standards of care set out in
0:08:57 > 0:09:05the NHS consitution.
0:09:05 > 0:09:10We therefore have a really important decision to make -
0:09:10 > 0:09:14do we abandon those standards,
0:09:14 > 0:09:16which were incredibly hard-fought to gain those standards
0:09:16 > 0:09:19in the 2000s, or do we make the decision on the long-term
0:09:19 > 0:09:23funding of the NHS and social care to ensure the NHS has enough money
0:09:23 > 0:09:24to meet those standards?
0:09:24 > 0:09:26We're joined now by the Shadow Health Minister, Justin Madders.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29I will come to you in just a moment. First of all, Graham Brady, A&E
0:09:29 > 0:09:32waiting times in England in December were the worst on record, is that
0:09:32 > 0:09:36acceptable?Of course not, but the NHS is doing more than it has ever
0:09:36 > 0:09:41done, doing better than it has ever done.How can it be doing things
0:09:41 > 0:09:45better if they are the worst on record?The real story is one of
0:09:45 > 0:09:48growing demand, an ageing population, more expensive health
0:09:48 > 0:09:52care that is now available, it is all marvellous but it creates
0:09:52 > 0:09:56challenges for the NHS. And it is a big, long term challenge that we
0:09:56 > 0:10:00need to work together to try and resolve.It is not a long-term
0:10:00 > 0:10:04challenge, it's a challenge right now. If you listen to NHS bosses,
0:10:04 > 0:10:11they are not just talking about a winter crisis, and we have had these
0:10:11 > 0:10:13crises year-on-year, they are talking about a service that is no
0:10:13 > 0:10:16longer going to be able to keep standards safe for patients. A
0:10:16 > 0:10:20watershed moment, Chris Hopson actually said. I will ask you again,
0:10:20 > 0:10:23we have known about the challenges of an ageing population, is it
0:10:23 > 0:10:27acceptable that the NHS is struggling?And spending continues
0:10:27 > 0:10:32to increase. The core that you are highlighting here this morning are
0:10:32 > 0:10:36absolutely right -- because you are highlighting. People are looking for
0:10:36 > 0:10:39a more sustainable way of dealing with this. I am sympathetic to the
0:10:39 > 0:10:43call that was made for a Royal commission to be established into
0:10:43 > 0:10:48the future funding of the NHS. It is a hugely important thing for us to
0:10:48 > 0:10:52get right for everybody in this country.Right, at the top Oxford
0:10:52 > 0:10:59Cancer Hospital saying they will have to delay or cut life prolonging
0:10:59 > 0:11:02treatment due to a shortage of nurses. Is that acceptable?These
0:11:02 > 0:11:06are things that have to be addressed. The NHS is recruiting
0:11:06 > 0:11:11more doctors and nurses, we have more than we have ever had.But not
0:11:11 > 0:11:14enough to deal with the increase in demand and the number of elderly
0:11:14 > 0:11:19patients, which we have known about. That is about the challenges for the
0:11:19 > 0:11:22health service, and also the challenge in social care, making
0:11:22 > 0:11:26sure that we omit the two things together, something that my area of
0:11:26 > 0:11:30Greater Manchester is at the forefront, making sure that health
0:11:30 > 0:11:35and social care are part of the same picture, something which has been
0:11:35 > 0:11:37established more firmly in the reshuffle with the Department being
0:11:37 > 0:11:41renamed with responsibility for social care.Let's look at the
0:11:41 > 0:11:45solutions. Justin, what is Labour's solution when it comes to funding
0:11:45 > 0:11:49year on year?We have been very clear, we are hearing today quite a
0:11:49 > 0:11:53lot of the people involved in the NHS coming round to our way of
0:11:53 > 0:11:56thinking, including some Conservative MPs, it is about the
0:11:56 > 0:12:00funding, at the core of it, and we pledged at the last election that we
0:12:00 > 0:12:08would put an extra £6 billion per year in.When would that start? I
0:12:08 > 0:12:10have your manifesto here, actually it says £5 billion for health care
0:12:10 > 0:12:14being put into the budget. When? Obviously we would have to get a
0:12:14 > 0:12:22budget passed...But in your plan, when would that £5 billion be spent?
0:12:22 > 0:12:25Well, it would be from the first year of a Labour government. It is
0:12:25 > 0:12:30about actually the long-term funding squeeze that we have seen over the
0:12:30 > 0:12:36last eight years, which has seen an increase in funding by about 1%,
0:12:36 > 0:12:41demand has gone up by about 4% per year. We want to get it back to that
0:12:41 > 0:12:45kind of love and stabilise the situation.£5 billion extra per year
0:12:45 > 0:12:49-- that kind of level. It would have been now if you had won that
0:12:49 > 0:12:53election. The Conservatives have said that they would increase it by
0:12:53 > 0:12:58a minimum of £8 billion by 2021-22. Do you accept that both parties are
0:12:58 > 0:13:07quite close in terms of the extra funding that is being committed?No,
0:13:07 > 0:13:10I don't. Because we would have already be putting measures in place
0:13:10 > 0:13:12now. What we are seeing at the moment, obviously the December the
0:13:12 > 0:13:15districts of the worst on record, this is before that we got to the
0:13:15 > 0:13:17appalling stories we have heard in the last couple of weeks -- the
0:13:17 > 0:13:20December that sticks. We need to stabilise the situation now. Are
0:13:20 > 0:13:26leaving in droves because they are one down by the pressures they are
0:13:26 > 0:13:29facing. We need to give them confidence that there is a future
0:13:29 > 0:13:33and hope for the NHS.£5 billion would have been putting immediately
0:13:33 > 0:13:38by Labour. What other measures?We would have increased the social care
0:13:38 > 0:13:42budgets, this £5 billion would have been every single year.You would
0:13:42 > 0:13:47have increased it every year by 2021-22 by 5 billion pounds.An
0:13:47 > 0:13:56extra 5 billion every year, not on top of that.
0:13:56 > 0:13:58top of that.Just to be clear. The Tories committed £8 billion per
0:13:58 > 0:14:00year, but not until 2021-22, and that is the difference. You wouldn't
0:14:00 > 0:14:03be doing anything and do not doing anything right now.There is more
0:14:03 > 0:14:06money going in now, there will be more money going in next year and
0:14:06 > 0:14:11the year after, and there will be an extra £8 billion by 2021.Do you
0:14:11 > 0:14:16think there should be over and above what has been committed to deal with
0:14:16 > 0:14:20this particular crisis.I think we should do what is necessary to deal
0:14:20 > 0:14:24with this particular situation. It is not for me to manage the National
0:14:24 > 0:14:28Health Service, we need to manage this situation. More money was
0:14:28 > 0:14:32announced in the budget, there is a response. The problem, Justin and I
0:14:32 > 0:14:36can sit here talking about £8 billion or £5 billion whether it is
0:14:36 > 0:14:41this year or next year, it is a much more fundamental question, whether
0:14:41 > 0:14:45there is a more stable way of funding by NHS in the long term. I
0:14:45 > 0:14:49think the public understand that. Let's look at the sustainable
0:14:49 > 0:14:52funding. Nick Bowles, your colleague, has suggested it is time
0:14:52 > 0:14:56for a high poverty to NHS tax that goes directly into the health
0:14:56 > 0:15:02service to page four health care in England, do you agree with that?--
0:15:02 > 0:15:08hypothecated. I thought it was an interesting proposition, it was
0:15:08 > 0:15:11misnamed the international insurance fund and making a National health
0:15:11 > 0:15:14fun, I thought it was an interesting idea and I would be interested to
0:15:14 > 0:15:19look at it.You might support the idea going forward?I might well.
0:15:19 > 0:15:24Taxes might go up.I think Nick's point was that you might find years
0:15:24 > 0:15:27where there is a surplus in the fund and the fund can build that up,
0:15:27 > 0:15:31there might be years when there was more revenue to spend on somewhere
0:15:31 > 0:15:35there might be less. It would make it a predictable pop that the NHS
0:15:35 > 0:15:39could rely on. And we could all see where that money was coming from and
0:15:39 > 0:15:43where it was going to.Do you support the idea of a hypothecated
0:15:43 > 0:15:48tax for health care?
0:15:49 > 0:15:55I am more concerned we get the money in the system. We would reverse
0:15:55 > 0:16:01corporation tax cuts, we would use money to pay for extra funding.
0:16:01 > 0:16:05That is the issue. You say it doesn't matter what it is called but
0:16:05 > 0:16:09the complaint is even if you increase taxation, if the public
0:16:09 > 0:16:15knows that extra money is definitely going to health care, they will feel
0:16:15 > 0:16:20reassured that paying it. That is what we did, you can see the
0:16:20 > 0:16:26results, greater satisfaction levels by the time we left office.
0:16:26 > 0:16:33If it wasn't hypothecated in quite the same way. Do you support an idea
0:16:33 > 0:16:38of a hypothecated tax as a long-term solution?
0:16:38 > 0:16:43The main point is we have to increase spending on the NHS and the
0:16:43 > 0:16:45only way is through increasing taxation.
0:16:45 > 0:16:51That is our position. To get all your money from higher taxpayers and
0:16:51 > 0:16:56corporations? That is what we set out in our
0:16:56 > 0:17:01manifesto. There are a number of reasons why we wanted to have those
0:17:01 > 0:17:07particular groups paying a little more. That is a reasonable position.
0:17:07 > 0:17:12What is wrong with that? You tax higher earners too much and
0:17:12 > 0:17:16companies, you get less revenue and not more, that has been seen.
0:17:16 > 0:17:22If we were to have the tragedy of a Labour Government, the effect would
0:17:22 > 0:17:28be less money available for the NHS. This is the line trotted out every
0:17:28 > 0:17:32time. It suggests we're not doing enough to crack down on tax
0:17:32 > 0:17:35avoidance which is a big issue in itself.
0:17:35 > 0:17:40That is the line trotted out by governments in terms of tax
0:17:40 > 0:17:43avoidance. So long-term funding of the NHS, would you like to see
0:17:43 > 0:17:47spending on health care go up as a proportion of GDP, what proportion?
0:17:47 > 0:17:53Up to the average of similar countries such as Germany.
0:17:53 > 0:18:00About 9.9%.It is closer to 11% in Germany.
0:18:00 > 0:18:04That is an ideal. We need to stabilise the situation and deal
0:18:04 > 0:18:09with the demand we have got. Looking ahead, you would be
0:18:09 > 0:18:12committed to Labour increasing the percentage of health care spending
0:18:12 > 0:18:17up to 11%? I have not made that commitment, we
0:18:17 > 0:18:24have to look long-term at demands. That is a comparison with another
0:18:24 > 0:18:29country. We have to look at this country over 20 years and plan
0:18:29 > 0:18:33accordingly. That is what this Government should have done.
0:18:33 > 0:18:38Some Tories are proposing that now. When we have looked at the figures
0:18:38 > 0:18:42of 5 billion extra spending, the Labour proposals are relatively
0:18:42 > 0:18:50hardest. What I am saying is what a lot of
0:18:50 > 0:18:53people are suggesting. There is nothing unusual about saying we have
0:18:53 > 0:18:56to predict in the longer term what demands will be on the health
0:18:56 > 0:19:00service. Should we increase our health care
0:19:00 > 0:19:08spending as a proportion of GDP? We are at the European average. We
0:19:08 > 0:19:15should do what is appropriate to get the best NHS we all depend on. It is
0:19:15 > 0:19:19inevitable in the future we will be spending a bigger percentage of GDP
0:19:19 > 0:19:25on health, as the population continues to age, more expensive new
0:19:25 > 0:19:31treatments. We all depend on it. Thank you.
0:19:31 > 0:19:34And if you want to find out how your local hospital is performing,
0:19:34 > 0:19:40you can use the BBC's NHS Tracker at bbc.co.uk/nhstracker.
0:19:40 > 0:19:44Now, here's a question that might be of interest to our guest of the day.
0:19:44 > 0:19:48How big is the Conservative Party?
0:19:48 > 0:19:50The answer, no-one seems to know!
0:19:50 > 0:19:52It's been five years since the party has said how many
0:19:52 > 0:19:53paid members it's got.
0:19:53 > 0:19:56But estimates suggest the total may have fallen since then,
0:19:56 > 0:19:57and is now around or below 100,000.
0:19:57 > 0:19:59So, what is the party's future?
0:19:59 > 0:20:00Does it matter?
0:20:00 > 0:20:04Our Ellie has been finding out what members themselves think.
0:20:04 > 0:20:08Can you believe it's six months since the general election?
0:20:08 > 0:20:11Well, even the party that won it have had to spend time
0:20:11 > 0:20:12licking their wounds, drowning their sorrows,
0:20:12 > 0:20:15working out what went wrong.
0:20:15 > 0:20:18So, what might the Tories do differently if and when there
0:20:18 > 0:20:19is another general election?
0:20:19 > 0:20:20Thank you.
0:20:20 > 0:20:22Happily, I've got some people here to find out.
0:20:22 > 0:20:24Hello, chaps.
0:20:24 > 0:20:27Right, whose is the orange juice?
0:20:27 > 0:20:30Ben Howlett lost his seat in Bath in June.
0:20:30 > 0:20:3331 now, he was one of the Tories' youngest MPs.
0:20:33 > 0:20:35He's brought some of his Conservative chums,
0:20:35 > 0:20:38all members, to have a chat.
0:20:38 > 0:20:41OK, so, Ben, why did you lose your seat?
0:20:41 > 0:20:43I think the main reason why I lost the seat
0:20:43 > 0:20:46was because of the Brexit vote.
0:20:46 > 0:20:50It was 70% Remain in the constituency, so putting out
0:20:50 > 0:20:52a message of strengthening our hand in the negotiations
0:20:52 > 0:20:57of the Prime Minister went well in the beginning,
0:20:57 > 0:20:59but then social care changes happened,
0:20:59 > 0:21:01and things fell apart quite quickly after that.
0:21:01 > 0:21:03The Conservatives do suffer with this brand issue, don't they?
0:21:03 > 0:21:07They are just not cool.
0:21:07 > 0:21:10I see more young activists around when we go to party conference,
0:21:10 > 0:21:13in my local area, when I'm attending regional events in
0:21:13 > 0:21:15London or Yorkshire, when we go out campaigning.
0:21:15 > 0:21:18I think it's necessarily we're not shouting about it,
0:21:18 > 0:21:20we're not really concerned about necessarily promoting
0:21:20 > 0:21:25the brand of youth.
0:21:25 > 0:21:29So, do you think the leadership listens to the membership?
0:21:29 > 0:21:31Certainly starting out, I did feel a little bit
0:21:31 > 0:21:37like I was just someone who was just going to knock on doors.
0:21:37 > 0:21:43Even though that's the bread and butter of the party campaign
0:21:43 > 0:21:45machine, I felt like that didn't really matter
0:21:45 > 0:21:46because those were just
0:21:46 > 0:21:47the things you would do.
0:21:47 > 0:21:50You know, even to the point where sometimes there would be meals
0:21:50 > 0:21:53and things at the local association, and I wouldn't be invited
0:21:53 > 0:21:54because I haven't apparently campaigned enough.
0:21:54 > 0:21:56And I thought, well, actually that's not the way
0:21:56 > 0:21:58to get me to campaign more.
0:21:58 > 0:22:01I think one of the things that MPs can do in particular,
0:22:01 > 0:22:03though, is to engage with their members more.
0:22:03 > 0:22:06Because, as an MP, you are stuck in Westminster four days a week,
0:22:06 > 0:22:09and you don't have that toing and froing with your members as much
0:22:09 > 0:22:11as you do when you are a candidate.
0:22:11 > 0:22:14If MPs can do more to listen to their members by thinking
0:22:14 > 0:22:18about some of the new policies, such as I did in Bath,
0:22:18 > 0:22:21that's a really great way to start changing the way that we think
0:22:21 > 0:22:23about different issues.
0:22:23 > 0:22:25And you'll probably get a lot more members in as a result.
0:22:25 > 0:22:27And what do you think, Ben?
0:22:27 > 0:22:30I think there's always more that any political party can do.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33I find our access to ministers, our influence on policy doesn't
0:22:33 > 0:22:36always lead to the results we want.
0:22:36 > 0:22:40But I do feel that we are listened to.
0:22:40 > 0:22:44The new generation are more active, we have figures such
0:22:44 > 0:22:48as James Cleverly, Brandon Lewis, the new chairman, and a few other
0:22:48 > 0:22:52MPs who, because they came up through the grassroots,
0:22:52 > 0:22:55and a lot of them were young at the time - again,
0:22:55 > 0:22:58Ben Howlett was one of them - they listen more to the local
0:22:58 > 0:22:59association and members.
0:22:59 > 0:23:01So we actually have more activities now on a regional
0:23:01 > 0:23:03and local basis than before.
0:23:03 > 0:23:06OK, so you're all painting quite a positive picture.
0:23:06 > 0:23:09How positive are you about the next general election, if and when it is?
0:23:09 > 0:23:11I think we're getting there now.
0:23:11 > 0:23:15Policy-wise, I completely agree with Ben.
0:23:15 > 0:23:18Also not forgetting now Michael Gove has come in, and really,
0:23:18 > 0:23:21really reformed the way we approach animal welfare and environmental
0:23:21 > 0:23:25issues, which was always a bit of a strain for me.
0:23:25 > 0:23:28As someone who is a Tory member and activist,
0:23:28 > 0:23:30it was always the part of me that always struggled every
0:23:30 > 0:23:32time we came to vote.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35I'd always vote Conservative, but there was a bit of a heavy heart
0:23:35 > 0:23:37there because animal welfare and the environment has also always
0:23:37 > 0:23:40been very important to me.
0:23:40 > 0:23:43We can speak now to Professor Tim Bale who has recently published
0:23:43 > 0:23:47research into the state of the Britain's political parties.
0:23:47 > 0:23:52Welcome to the Daily Politics. What is the relative health of the
0:23:52 > 0:23:54Conservative Party compared to other parties?
0:23:54 > 0:23:58It is not growing as others, Labour has undergone a phenomenal growth
0:23:58 > 0:24:04since Jeremy Corbyn took over, the Conservatives have probably shrunk,
0:24:04 > 0:24:09some reports say they are down to 70,000, smaller than the Lib Dems
0:24:09 > 0:24:16and the SNP. I'll wouldn't put them above 100,000, it has been notably
0:24:16 > 0:24:20reluctant to release membership figures for the past three years
0:24:20 > 0:24:26indicating they are in trouble. They have been reluctant. How
0:24:26 > 0:24:30important is a healthy grassroots to winning elections?
0:24:30 > 0:24:34The evidence suggests in a close race in a constituency the effort on
0:24:34 > 0:24:39the ground parties can make makes a difference. Talking about
0:24:39 > 0:24:44canvassing, identifying voters, talking about delivering leaflets,
0:24:44 > 0:24:50and increasingly elections are being fought on line where the
0:24:50 > 0:24:54Conservatives have a particular problem because of the age structure
0:24:54 > 0:24:59of the party, members just don't seem to do anywhere near as much on
0:24:59 > 0:25:06Facebook or Twitter social media than members of other parties.
0:25:06 > 0:25:11Social media is critically important in future elections. How reflective
0:25:11 > 0:25:17of the attitudes of Tory members of voters and the voters they need to
0:25:17 > 0:25:20gain to win? It is important to separate those
0:25:20 > 0:25:25groups. Party members are not that far away from people who are core
0:25:25 > 0:25:29Conservative Party voters. Where they are quite far away from is the
0:25:29 > 0:25:33sort of voter they need to pick up at the next election and elections
0:25:33 > 0:25:41to come. Look at attitudes and they are pretty authoritarian, not very
0:25:41 > 0:25:45liberal, pretty traditional. As Britain becomes more socially
0:25:45 > 0:25:49liberal in part because so many more are going to university, that could
0:25:49 > 0:25:53be a problem. Do Conservative members have less
0:25:53 > 0:25:58say in the direction of their parties and other parties
0:25:58 > 0:26:01particularly now? Absolutely. The only bright is that
0:26:01 > 0:26:05being a party member gives you is the right to select Parliamentary
0:26:05 > 0:26:09candidates in your Krsticic are sick and occasionally if there is a
0:26:09 > 0:26:14leadership contest. You have no say formally in terms of policy, which
0:26:14 > 0:26:21is not the case for the Labour Party and the Lib Dems and SNP and Green
0:26:21 > 0:26:25Party, members that have a significant say. That is something
0:26:25 > 0:26:29to do with the fact that Conservative Party members feel less
0:26:29 > 0:26:37appreciated by their leadership. Graham, how many members does the
0:26:37 > 0:26:40Conservative Party have? I do not know.
0:26:40 > 0:26:47You do not want to know. I would be very happy to know. The fact is we
0:26:47 > 0:26:51don't have a central membership register so it is difficult to have
0:26:51 > 0:26:56an accurate figure. At the time of the leadership election, it was
0:26:56 > 0:27:03something around I think 100,000, 120,000, not nearly as high as it
0:27:03 > 0:27:10should be. There was an interesting question when you said is a healthy
0:27:10 > 0:27:15grassroots important? I think it is but the converse is an unhealthy
0:27:15 > 0:27:19grassroots can be quite damaging as well. One concern looking at the
0:27:19 > 0:27:24Labour Party and the big growth in the momentum membership, this block
0:27:24 > 0:27:28of hard left wing people who make it very difficult...
0:27:28 > 0:27:36But we're not talking about... Except they did much better than was
0:27:36 > 0:27:38expected and got an enormously high share of the vote, admittedly. If
0:27:38 > 0:27:44you don't think the health of the grassroots matters, let the figures
0:27:44 > 0:27:48have dropped below 100,000, is it a worry?
0:27:48 > 0:27:54I want to see much stronger party membership, being more open to the
0:27:54 > 0:27:58membership, the party conference being more of a genuine debate and
0:27:58 > 0:28:08about broadcasts. Yes, I am keen on expending -- expanding the
0:28:08 > 0:28:10membership. And giving them more power?
0:28:10 > 0:28:17Certainly more of a voice, parties must listen to their members.
0:28:17 > 0:28:22Except Tim Bell says they don't really reflect Tory voters.
0:28:22 > 0:28:28He said they would rather reflect Tory voters by the well. He said we
0:28:28 > 0:28:31possibly need to look differently at some of those we need to reach out
0:28:31 > 0:28:37to. It depends where you are. My own membership is pretty strong, the
0:28:37 > 0:28:40same figure it has been for a number of years.
0:28:40 > 0:28:45I would love to see that double.Do you think beefing up of Conservative
0:28:45 > 0:28:51headquarters in the recent reshuffle, the appointment of 13
0:28:51 > 0:28:53vice chairs, will that make a difference?
0:28:53 > 0:28:58I am less concerned about the number and more about the quality. We have
0:28:58 > 0:29:04some fantastic people involved driving some of this process.
0:29:04 > 0:29:08Brandon Lewis, I have a lot of faith in him, James Clay is the deputy
0:29:08 > 0:29:17picked out in the piece you have just shown. So, we have a lot of
0:29:17 > 0:29:24real quality coming in. With a lot of enthusiasm. Would a
0:29:24 > 0:29:29better operation at CC HQ made a difference last year?
0:29:29 > 0:29:34I think pretty much everything did go wrong, part of that was not just
0:29:34 > 0:29:40the period of the election, it was a period where there was lack of
0:29:40 > 0:29:44preparation in advance. No election was anticipated, the point about
0:29:44 > 0:29:50social media and communicating widely, that had been allowed to
0:29:50 > 0:29:56atrophy and now there is a
0:29:57 > 0:30:01What about the reshuffle in general? Could it have been more radical?It
0:30:01 > 0:30:06could have been more radical, I was reflecting on what word I would
0:30:06 > 0:30:12settle on for that.What is it? Oversold is probably the word. If
0:30:12 > 0:30:16this reshuffle had just happened and people were looking at it by its own
0:30:16 > 0:30:20merits, people would say it was a pretty reasonable reshuffle, with
0:30:20 > 0:30:25some very good, strong moves, some new people coming into Government,
0:30:25 > 0:30:28some sensible changes. David Lidington replacing the come
0:30:28 > 0:30:37ordination role that
0:30:38 > 0:30:39ordination role that Damian Green was doing before that, for instance.
0:30:39 > 0:30:42-- become ordination role. It might not have been what the Prime
0:30:42 > 0:30:44Minister had in mind, but my highlight of the reshuffle was
0:30:44 > 0:30:46Jeremy Hunt, so determined to remain at the helm of the National Health
0:30:46 > 0:30:49Service.Did that demonstrate her weakness?It demonstrates something
0:30:49 > 0:30:53really important, which is that Jeremy has been so committed to the
0:30:53 > 0:30:57NHS and getting it right and really cares about that. And his
0:30:57 > 0:31:00determination to stand by it.What does it say about the Prime
0:31:00 > 0:31:04Minister, who wanted to move him? That she was per say so but prepared
0:31:04 > 0:31:10to be persuaded by him and she got that right.Are you pleased that the
0:31:10 > 0:31:14woman who stood in the way of grammar school expansion has gone?I
0:31:14 > 0:31:18like Justine Greening, she is a friend and a colleague. I'm not
0:31:18 > 0:31:22pleased when any of my colleagues find themselves out of office when
0:31:22 > 0:31:27they wanted to be in office. I am also pleased to see Damian Hinds in
0:31:27 > 0:31:32that job. He is a grammar school boy from altering.Are you hoping that
0:31:32 > 0:31:37policy will be reversed? And there will be further expansion?I'm
0:31:37 > 0:31:42hoping to see some steady progress being made on the question of giving
0:31:42 > 0:31:46parents more choice in schools, that should include the ability to choose
0:31:46 > 0:31:51selective schools where they want to.Nick Timothy, former adviser to
0:31:51 > 0:31:55Theresa May who went soon after the election, but it was right for
0:31:55 > 0:31:59Justine Greening to go because she apparently blocked tuition fee cuts.
0:31:59 > 0:32:02Would that be right in terms of getting rid of somebody who was
0:32:02 > 0:32:07blocking reform?I have no idea whether that was the case, I don't
0:32:07 > 0:32:12know what discussions have happened within Government and tuition fees.
0:32:12 > 0:32:16Right, this article in the Telegraph today suggests that Nick Timothy
0:32:16 > 0:32:20still speaks to the Prime Minister and he was, along with Fiona Hill,
0:32:20 > 0:32:24blamed in some part for that election campaign. Is it appropriate
0:32:24 > 0:32:29that the Prime Minister is such close conversation with her former
0:32:29 > 0:32:34advisers?She can talk to as many friends and advisers as she wishes,
0:32:34 > 0:32:38the more people she talks to the better.Are you disappointed that
0:32:38 > 0:32:44there will not be a Minister for no deal attending Cabinet?That is not
0:32:44 > 0:32:47necessary, we have seen a strengthening of the department, and
0:32:47 > 0:32:53other Minister, a very capable and strong new member coming in to the
0:32:53 > 0:32:56Government Luella Fernandes. She will be a real asset.Would you have
0:32:56 > 0:32:59liked to have seen somebody representing that particular option,
0:32:59 > 0:33:05it was felt that it would be explored more fully by Brexiteers.
0:33:05 > 0:33:09I'm not keen on ministers having a particular policy agenda, they are
0:33:09 > 0:33:13responsible for delivering the Goverment's policy, which is strong
0:33:13 > 0:33:17and clear, we are making significant progress towards it. There result of
0:33:17 > 0:33:21optimism that we will move forward with face two in a more constructive
0:33:21 > 0:33:25weight with our new partners. Michael Gove has told Conservative
0:33:25 > 0:33:29home that he fancies Damian Hinds, the new Education Secretary, and
0:33:29 > 0:33:42Gavin Williamson, the Defence Secretary, for next Tory leader.
0:33:42 > 0:33:45Do you agree with him?I am chairman of the 1922 Committee, I would be
0:33:45 > 0:33:48returning officer in any contest that might happen, I could not
0:33:48 > 0:33:50express a preference. They are both very good people. Looking at the
0:33:50 > 0:33:52reshuffle and some of the new members of the Government, I think
0:33:52 > 0:33:55we are in a very strong position for the future. We have got so much
0:33:55 > 0:33:58talent on the Conservative benches in the House of Commons, that is a
0:33:58 > 0:34:00really positive sign for the future of the Conservative Party and the
0:34:00 > 0:34:05country.What about the talent at the top? Last time you in this
0:34:05 > 0:34:09studio you said that Theresa May was safe in post at the moment, is that
0:34:09 > 0:34:14still your view?I probably said at the time, that is all that any Prime
0:34:14 > 0:34:19Minister or leader of anybody is at any time.Do you see her fighting
0:34:19 > 0:34:23the next election as leader of the Conservative Party?My position
0:34:23 > 0:34:27remains the same, it is the view of my colleagues that we do not want to
0:34:27 > 0:34:31see a leadership election, we are making good progress, whilst lots of
0:34:31 > 0:34:35people may say at the moment Theresa May may not lead the Conservative
0:34:35 > 0:34:38Party through the next general election, that isn't a judgment that
0:34:38 > 0:34:43is going to be taken today, it will be taking in two or three years'
0:34:43 > 0:34:47time, the whole landscape might be different then as we are merging
0:34:47 > 0:34:53from the negotiations and the agreements on Brexit.By March 2019,
0:34:53 > 0:34:58there could be a leadership contest? Of course there could be. My view
0:34:58 > 0:35:01that a successful exit from the European Union, Britain continuing
0:35:01 > 0:35:05to see strong economic growth, low unemployment, record levels of
0:35:05 > 0:35:08innovative investment as we are seeing at the moment, it is likely
0:35:08 > 0:35:11people will look at the Prime Minister and say, she has done a
0:35:11 > 0:35:16pretty good job.What about Michael Gove's prospects, could he be a
0:35:16 > 0:35:22future leader of the Conservative Party?I'm not going to, it on that,
0:35:22 > 0:35:26but he is doing a brilliant job at Defra and I'm very pleased to see
0:35:26 > 0:35:32the measures taken to get rid of my group -- micro beads and what he is
0:35:32 > 0:35:34doing about plastic.Thank you.
0:35:34 > 0:35:37The former Lib Dem leader and committed Christian Tim Farron
0:35:37 > 0:35:40has said he regrets saying that gay sex was not a sin during last
0:35:40 > 0:35:41year's general election.
0:35:41 > 0:35:43He told Christian Radio he was "foolish" to allow himself
0:35:43 > 0:35:46to be pressured in saying something which he didn't believe was right.
0:35:46 > 0:35:50During the 2017 general election campaign, when he was Lib Dem
0:35:50 > 0:35:53leader, Tim Farron was asked repeatedly about his religious
0:35:53 > 0:35:57beliefs, and, specifically, about whether he believed gay sex was a
0:35:57 > 0:36:04Saint.Do you think that having -- that having a gay sex was a sin.I'm
0:36:04 > 0:36:10not going to give you an answer that question, and I will tell you why.
0:36:10 > 0:36:14One's personal faith is one's personal faith. What counts is your
0:36:14 > 0:36:17actions and your beliefs in politics.He later said that he
0:36:17 > 0:36:23didn't one people getting the wrong impression about his views.I don't
0:36:23 > 0:36:29believe gay sex is a sin. I take the view as a political leader, my job
0:36:29 > 0:36:35is not to pontificate on the logical matters.Tim Farron step out as Lib
0:36:35 > 0:36:38Dem leader straight after the election, saying in a statement that
0:36:38 > 0:36:42he was torn between living as a faithful Christian and serving as a
0:36:42 > 0:36:48political leader. In an interview with Christian radio yesterday, Mr
0:36:48 > 0:36:53Farron said he regretted not being honest with himself at the time.
0:36:53 > 0:36:57There are things I regret and there was a sense in which I felt, look,
0:36:57 > 0:37:01I've got to get this off my table, what an opportunity for us. All that
0:37:01 > 0:37:05they wanted to do was talk about my Christian beliefs and what it meant
0:37:05 > 0:37:12and all the rest of it. And I would say, foolishly, and strongly,
0:37:12 > 0:37:17attempted to, you know, push it away by giving an answer that frankly was
0:37:17 > 0:37:19not right.Tim Farron.
0:37:19 > 0:37:21Joining me now from Cambridge is the writer
0:37:21 > 0:37:22and commentator Anne Atkins.
0:37:22 > 0:37:26And the Labour MP and former Anglian vicar Chris Bryant.
0:37:26 > 0:37:30Welcome to the studio to you, and welcome to the programme. Shouldn't
0:37:30 > 0:37:34Tim Farron have had the courage of his convictions at the time and said
0:37:34 > 0:37:38that he thought gay sex was a saint? I think that's what he said
0:37:38 > 0:37:45yesterday -- thought they sex was a scene. It is a misleading question
0:37:45 > 0:37:49and an illiberal and homophobic question, as he pointed out
0:37:49 > 0:37:53yesterday, because Christians believe that we all seen it, seeing
0:37:53 > 0:37:57is a theological term which is quite misleading because it communicates
0:37:57 > 0:38:03to people who not quite familiar with that jargon condemnation and
0:38:03 > 0:38:07judgment and looking down on people, which is not what it means at all,
0:38:07 > 0:38:10it is defined by St Paul in the letter the Romans as falling short
0:38:10 > 0:38:14in the glory of God, as Christians, we believe that we all do that. The
0:38:14 > 0:38:18fact that he was asked about a particular minority is a very
0:38:18 > 0:38:22misleading thing. If he had come out and said, yes, I do think it is a
0:38:22 > 0:38:26sin, that would have been more misleading than what he actually did
0:38:26 > 0:38:31say. What I find so disappointing was Vince Cable's tweet after Tim
0:38:31 > 0:38:39Farron step down, which was very illiberal. He distanced himself from
0:38:39 > 0:38:44Tim Farron's views and said the Lib Dems have a long and proud history
0:38:44 > 0:38:49of supporting LGBT rights. Well, so does Tim Farron. He has a long and
0:38:49 > 0:38:53proud history of supporting LGBT rights, which is the important
0:38:53 > 0:38:58thing.In terms of your expectation about what is considered a sin, he
0:38:58 > 0:39:06told a lie, straightforwardly.He said he wishes he had represented
0:39:06 > 0:39:11his views more truthfully.For the viewers, it is just to make it plain
0:39:11 > 0:39:15that he said one thing that he didn't mean, and now he has
0:39:15 > 0:39:18corrected it. He lied at the time about a fairly straightforward
0:39:18 > 0:39:25question.I think lie is an extremely unfair term. He was caught
0:39:25 > 0:39:30off balance, he said something which subsequently...Let me try another
0:39:30 > 0:39:35term with you, he bore false witness. You know, from the Ten
0:39:35 > 0:39:40Commandments, he lied.That is the same thing.Lying is a sin. If I'm
0:39:40 > 0:39:43honest, I feel awfully sorry for him because he tied himself up in knots,
0:39:43 > 0:39:48by the end of yesterday I don't know what he really thinks.He was very
0:39:48 > 0:39:53clear.My anxiety is, I think the Church of England, and a lot of the
0:39:53 > 0:39:56church is conflicted about it as well, on the one hand they want to
0:39:56 > 0:40:05be supportive and caring towards LGBT people. And most people I
0:40:05 > 0:40:07LGBT people. And most people I think now accept that your sexuality is
0:40:07 > 0:40:10not a choice that you have made. That is very different from 100
0:40:10 > 0:40:12years ago or 200 years ago, when everybody thought that you chose to
0:40:12 > 0:40:14become a sexual. Today, the vast majority of Christians would accept
0:40:14 > 0:40:18that it is not a choice. So then the question is whether churches want to
0:40:18 > 0:40:20support people in loving relationships or want to deprive
0:40:20 > 0:40:27them and say that they are sin. Like comeback on that, Anne?You are
0:40:27 > 0:40:30deliberately confusing two things and you know that you. 100 years
0:40:30 > 0:40:35ago, people board of the act rather than the orientation, now people
0:40:35 > 0:40:39think of the orientation.Both, actually.Tim Farron himself has
0:40:39 > 0:40:43made it clear that Christianity does not condemn sexual orientation, he
0:40:43 > 0:40:48himself has said that. You are being far more illiberal than Tim Farron
0:40:48 > 0:40:52was and so is Vince Cable, because you are condemning him for, you
0:40:52 > 0:40:56know, breaking one of the Ten Commandments, he himself made clear
0:40:56 > 0:40:59yesterday, as all Christians believe, that we all break the Ten
0:40:59 > 0:41:07Commandments...Let Chris answer. Anne, can you let me say something?
0:41:07 > 0:41:13I just wanted to finish my sentence. It was quite a long paragraph, but
0:41:13 > 0:41:16anyway, I feel sympathetic towards him because it is perfectly
0:41:16 > 0:41:20legitimate for somebody to hold that view. I disagree with them. I think
0:41:20 > 0:41:25he would have been better off to have stated what his view was.Would
0:41:25 > 0:41:29he? This is the politics of it. He was hounded during the election
0:41:29 > 0:41:33campaign over it. He was asked repeatedly, may be fairly, do you
0:41:33 > 0:41:38think it is right that he should be hounded on this issue?It is a
0:41:38 > 0:41:42legitimate issue for voters to say, what are your views on a variety of
0:41:42 > 0:41:46issues, including there is? And how do you bring your religious belief
0:41:46 > 0:41:51into the policies that you vote for and don't vote for? My memory, and I
0:41:51 > 0:41:57may be wrong on this, but my memory is that Tim did not vote for
0:41:57 > 0:42:01same-sex marriage, third reading, second reading of the bill.His
0:42:01 > 0:42:06voting record is absolutely... If they are a Labour colleague of yours
0:42:06 > 0:42:11in the House of Commons, if they held those same views...Some do. I
0:42:11 > 0:42:16had a big row with Kelly wants about this very issue. And in Labour's
0:42:16 > 0:42:21case, we had said that we were supporting civil partnerships and
0:42:21 > 0:42:24gay adoption, we were supporting that is part of that manifesto, and
0:42:24 > 0:42:28Ruth Kelly was opposed to it. I said to her, in conscience, you shouldn't
0:42:28 > 0:42:33be on the front bench of the Labour Party.Anne, should Tim Farron have
0:42:33 > 0:42:36sorted out in his mind how he should deal with this, bearing in mind he
0:42:36 > 0:42:40was the leader of a British political party of the Liberal
0:42:40 > 0:42:43Democrat party, and would know and expect there to be questions along
0:42:43 > 0:42:47these lines to test those liberal policies? We have had the debate
0:42:47 > 0:42:51about what is liberal and illiberal, but shouldn't he have expected it
0:42:51 > 0:42:54and prepared for it by the Brazil are a far more democratic and
0:42:54 > 0:42:59liberal question would have been, what isyour records, not your
0:42:59 > 0:43:06personal views. The point that he has tried to make but nobody has
0:43:06 > 0:43:09really listen to what he is saying, is his personal views on this are
0:43:09 > 0:43:12not relevant. What is relevant is his public voting record. Because
0:43:12 > 0:43:16his liberalism, you see, what is truly...I think that views do
0:43:16 > 0:43:22matter.Let Anne finish.What is truly liberal, something that has
0:43:22 > 0:43:25been misattributed but his bill a fabulous quote, what is truly
0:43:25 > 0:43:29liberal is to disagree with you and support you anyway. That is Tim
0:43:29 > 0:43:35Farron's record, what his personal views are...You are misquoting, is
0:43:35 > 0:43:39quoted for there! To defend the right...Before we get into this
0:43:39 > 0:43:44slightly dense argument, is it possible, as Anne has said, that you
0:43:44 > 0:43:49can have personal views that you hold there, but actually it doesn't
0:43:49 > 0:43:53affect, necessarily, how you lead a political party. You can still
0:43:53 > 0:43:58support LGBT rights.Absolutely. I think he needed to make that clear.
0:43:58 > 0:44:05Can I make the far bigger point, which is that, actually, gay young
0:44:05 > 0:44:09men and women commit suicide six times more frequently than their
0:44:09 > 0:44:12straight counterparts. Every time somebody adds into this equation a
0:44:12 > 0:44:15little bit more of the kind of critique and criticism of,
0:44:15 > 0:44:20sexuality, whether it is, sexuality itself, in aid, sexuality, or
0:44:20 > 0:44:28whether you engage in sexual acts -- whether it is homosexuality. It adds
0:44:28 > 0:44:32that the sense of guilt and shame. My anxiety for the Church of England
0:44:32 > 0:44:36is, which is my church, in 200 years' time, people will say, you
0:44:36 > 0:44:40got this completely and utterly wrong, you now have a situation
0:44:40 > 0:44:45where, for clergy, you are allowed to be gay, you allowed to be in a
0:44:45 > 0:44:49Sybil partnership as long as you swear to god that it is celibate.
0:44:49 > 0:44:52This is a nonsense they have got themselves tied up in knots in.What
0:44:52 > 0:44:57about the case of the Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg? He is clear
0:44:57 > 0:45:01about his views on gay marriage and abortion, he thinks that same-sex
0:45:01 > 0:45:05marriage is wrong. He tells it as it is, that is the better way to be, is
0:45:05 > 0:45:10it?I think you should be honest and straightforward, yes. I think that
0:45:10 > 0:45:14voters actually respect people's courage. And if you are prepared to
0:45:14 > 0:45:18say, look, I personally think that homosexuality is wrong or however
0:45:18 > 0:45:22you want to frighten it, but I also believe that the law should treat
0:45:22 > 0:45:26everybody equally -- however you want to frame it.These people can't
0:45:26 > 0:45:30hold high office, is that what you are saying?Well, I wouldn't vote
0:45:30 > 0:45:34for them.But can they not hold high office?I am not hounding anybody
0:45:34 > 0:45:42out of office, I am being very liberal. Anne can stand for election
0:45:42 > 0:45:45but I'm not going to vote for her! That's fine, I'm quite happy without
0:45:45 > 0:45:51your vote, thank you very much. There I say it, I think you are
0:45:51 > 0:45:54contradicting yourself. I totally agree with you that of course we
0:45:54 > 0:45:58must support, you know, we must all fight for people who feel suicidal
0:45:58 > 0:46:02and who feel criticised and got at, which is why I think it is the
0:46:02 > 0:46:06question is self that is illiberal and homophobic. I think the person
0:46:06 > 0:46:11who has dealt with it most widely so wisely is Justin Welby, he said he
0:46:11 > 0:46:15is not going to answer it. And quite fried, because if you answer it,
0:46:15 > 0:46:19that contributes to young people feeling judged -- quite right. What
0:46:19 > 0:46:25is really important is that, to come back to Tim Farron, his liberalism
0:46:25 > 0:46:29is, he is saying, is much more important in his political career,
0:46:29 > 0:46:34and that is what he votes for, than his personal view about certain
0:46:34 > 0:46:40things where he may disagree.
0:46:40 > 0:46:44Should he have been cleared the first time he was asked and stood by
0:46:44 > 0:46:49his personal view? I think he should have done. He was
0:46:49 > 0:46:52hounded at the election but because people thought he was hiding
0:46:52 > 0:46:56something. He should not have too. Is it a fair
0:46:56 > 0:47:01question to ask, do you think gay sex is a sin?
0:47:01 > 0:47:08It is a fair question. My answer to it is, no, I don't.
0:47:08 > 0:47:11Can politicians speak freely about their faith?
0:47:11 > 0:47:17This is the underlying thing that concerns me.There is a far more
0:47:17 > 0:47:25intolerant attitude in Britain than there used to be. People are often
0:47:25 > 0:47:27intolerant of faith, religion, political views sometimes. We should
0:47:27 > 0:47:33be more open to listening. I sympathise with that but if you
0:47:33 > 0:47:36were a young person in his constituency and went to his surgery
0:47:36 > 0:47:41and you were gay and wanted to talk about the problems you were having,
0:47:41 > 0:47:46you might worry if you thought he was going to say, sexuality is a
0:47:46 > 0:47:49sin. We will have two stop it here. We
0:47:49 > 0:47:54did ask Tim Farron to come in for an interview, but he turned us down.
0:47:54 > 0:47:57Delighted that you came here instead.
0:47:57 > 0:48:00Now, the Government has a target to bring net migration,
0:48:00 > 0:48:02that's the difference between the number of people coming
0:48:02 > 0:48:05into the the UK and those leaving, to less than 100.000.
0:48:05 > 0:48:06It currently stands at 230,000.
0:48:06 > 0:48:08But should students be included in those figures?
0:48:08 > 0:48:10Currently, they are, but there's a debate
0:48:10 > 0:48:11about whether they should be.
0:48:11 > 0:48:17Let's speak to Nick Hillman of the Higher Education Policy Institute.
0:48:17 > 0:48:20Welcome to the programme, can you explain what you found and how you
0:48:20 > 0:48:25calculated it? We've did a detailed survey of the
0:48:25 > 0:48:30benefits to the whole UK of having international students here, all the
0:48:30 > 0:48:37rent they paid, the food they buy, and we have calculated the costs,
0:48:37 > 0:48:43and we found even after you have taken away the costs, the UK
0:48:43 > 0:48:50benefits to the tune of £20 billion a year from the presence of so many
0:48:50 > 0:48:54international students in the UK. What do you say, should it now be
0:48:54 > 0:48:58the case students are excluded from the net migration figures?
0:48:58 > 0:49:03There was a real problem if you years ago, with bogus colleges, used
0:49:03 > 0:49:08as a means of getting into the country. The Government rightly
0:49:08 > 0:49:13tackle that. It is also the case foreign students in the UK is a huge
0:49:13 > 0:49:17export success for Britain, universities do a brilliant job
0:49:17 > 0:49:23bringing money in. And we forge very good friendships with people who go
0:49:23 > 0:49:29back to their own countries, become great successes in business. A good
0:49:29 > 0:49:33for the country as long as they are genuine degrees.
0:49:33 > 0:49:35Should they be taken out other figures?
0:49:35 > 0:49:41I discussed this with a former Immigration Minister and his answer
0:49:41 > 0:49:47is the problem lies with the statistical authorities which insist
0:49:47 > 0:49:51on categorising this as part of migration. The difficulty for the
0:49:51 > 0:49:56Government is to try to change that and present figures in a different
0:49:56 > 0:50:03way makes them look very shifty. The important thing is we are not
0:50:03 > 0:50:07stopping people coming here to study.
0:50:07 > 0:50:12Is that really the justification because the ONS tells the Government
0:50:12 > 0:50:15it can't? I welcome what Graham says about the
0:50:15 > 0:50:21positive grudge which they make. But I don't agree. What they do in other
0:50:21 > 0:50:25countries is the count all the people coming in including students
0:50:25 > 0:50:30but setting migration targets, they exclude them from the statistics for
0:50:30 > 0:50:34that purpose, that is a Government decision and target.
0:50:34 > 0:50:41Mike understanding is it is a Government decision.
0:50:41 > 0:50:46-- My understanding. The Government is doing nothing to discourage
0:50:46 > 0:50:49people from coming to study in the UK.
0:50:49 > 0:50:54It sounds like you would favour if the Government were to decide to
0:50:54 > 0:50:57exclude those students from the figures, would you support it?
0:50:57 > 0:51:04I would be concerned if it would result in universities and told not
0:51:04 > 0:51:09to recruit qualified students from studying in the UK.
0:51:09 > 0:51:15Briefly, isn't the point anyone coming in and going out should be
0:51:15 > 0:51:19part of immigration statistics? Absolutely. But not in the target. I
0:51:19 > 0:51:25hope Graham will look at the Indian press saying Britain is the least
0:51:25 > 0:51:29welcoming country in the world for international students. Yet we have
0:51:29 > 0:51:33the best universities.
0:51:33 > 0:51:36There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
0:51:36 > 0:51:38The question was, what wasn't in the hamper presented
0:51:38 > 0:51:40by a pro-Brexit delegation to Michel Barnier yesterday
0:51:40 > 0:51:45to advertise British business?
0:51:45 > 0:51:47Was it a) Cheddar cheese?
0:51:47 > 0:51:49b) PG Tips?
0:51:49 > 0:51:51c) Eccles cakes?
0:51:51 > 0:51:53Or d) Marmite?
0:51:53 > 0:52:00So, Graham, what's the correct answer?
0:52:00 > 0:52:07As a Lancastrian by birth, there should be Eccles cakes but I wonder
0:52:07 > 0:52:12if it is Marmite? I had a terrible feeling maybe it is being made
0:52:12 > 0:52:14somewhere else? You were on the right track.
0:52:14 > 0:52:22Eccles cakes is the answer.
0:52:23 > 0:52:27Michel Barnier got an array of British products.
0:52:27 > 0:52:29Let's take a look at the delivery yesterday.
0:52:29 > 0:52:32PG Tips from Manchester, obviously, you can't ignore that.
0:52:32 > 0:52:35We have got some gin from Scotland, by the way, that could of course be
0:52:35 > 0:52:38Scotch whisky in terms of how British it is.
0:52:38 > 0:52:40We've got some wine from England.
0:52:40 > 0:52:42We have got some Marmite, I'm a huge Marmite fan.
0:52:42 > 0:52:46That's Burton on Trent's best.
0:52:46 > 0:52:48Fantastic English cheeses which I am sure they will appreciate
0:52:48 > 0:52:52because we have got a huge market in cheese.
0:52:52 > 0:52:54We are trying to show once we leave the European Union,
0:52:54 > 0:52:57you will have some great products that will be able to be sold
0:52:57 > 0:53:05still in Europe but we will expand.
0:53:08 > 0:53:10Lucky old Michel Barnier.
0:53:10 > 0:53:13Well, Steven Woolfe joins us now from Brussels.
0:53:13 > 0:53:15And here in the studio is the commentator
0:53:15 > 0:53:21Yasmin Alibhai-Brown.
0:53:21 > 0:53:25Welcome. What made you choose those particular products, many of which
0:53:25 > 0:53:34we have in our hamper here. What we had known from Michel
0:53:34 > 0:53:39Barnier come he was a huge fan of Shakespeare and uses quotes from
0:53:39 > 0:53:44Winston Churchill. From my perspective as a Mancunian, I grew
0:53:44 > 0:53:50up with PG tips from my grandmother. And also because it is Unilever, it
0:53:50 > 0:53:56shows a positive way we can trade with an Anglo European business to
0:53:56 > 0:54:00show we would be friendly and working with them in the future. The
0:54:00 > 0:54:05idea of having modern products like gin is to show the expansion of our
0:54:05 > 0:54:12ideas in new areas. Michel Barnier love them, he enjoyed them. I think
0:54:12 > 0:54:15his team will enjoy it over the next few weeks.
0:54:15 > 0:54:19What is your problem with these gifts?
0:54:19 > 0:54:26I have no problem. British values, Shakespeare, he was absolutely
0:54:26 > 0:54:31European. There would be no Shakespeare, Corona, Papua, Rome,
0:54:31 > 0:54:38Greek stories. Let us talk about Eccles cakes, sultanas imported. The
0:54:38 > 0:54:45great thing about Britain is it has always been open, perceptive,
0:54:45 > 0:54:50curious. That is the great strength of this country. I fear at the
0:54:50 > 0:54:55moment we are retreating into a greyness which isn't British at all.
0:54:55 > 0:55:00What do you say, that this was something of a cheap stunt to win
0:55:00 > 0:55:02over Michel Barnier which it probably won't do however generous
0:55:02 > 0:55:09you were. Of course it wasn't a cheap stunt
0:55:09 > 0:55:14and his team did not accepted as that. What he did accept was this
0:55:14 > 0:55:19was an offer of friendship to open up a negotiation and discussion with
0:55:19 > 0:55:26him in an open away, and friendly way, that is exactly what he
0:55:26 > 0:55:29accepted. Anyone who understands European politics and how you talk
0:55:29 > 0:55:34to politicians here understand you have to give them that level of
0:55:34 > 0:55:39respect to have proper discussions. We did discuss what would happen in
0:55:39 > 0:55:44negotiations. We talked about the way we wanted a positive free trade
0:55:44 > 0:55:49arrangement. But to remember you have to comply with the will of
0:55:49 > 0:55:55those who voted in the referendum to leave, and he accepted that, very
0:55:55 > 0:55:59clearly, that there will be Brexit in March 2019, and he is working
0:55:59 > 0:56:04towards that. Even the EU negotiating team are
0:56:04 > 0:56:08working in some parts towards the possibility of a no deal.
0:56:08 > 0:56:13Absolutely. They are civilised people. This is embarrassing to turn
0:56:13 > 0:56:21up, there are messages here. Why would -- How would we feel if they
0:56:21 > 0:56:24turned up with pasta and pesto because they want us to talk to them
0:56:24 > 0:56:31nicely? It is a stunt.
0:56:31 > 0:56:33nicely? It is a stunt. It makes it foolish. Show some respect,
0:56:33 > 0:56:41actually. I do agree that negotiations need to be civilised
0:56:41 > 0:56:46and respectful. This was a stunt and it was making something of Britain
0:56:46 > 0:56:50which Britain isn't. I am quite embarrassed you did this.
0:56:50 > 0:56:55But do you think it will help in terms of avoiding the negotiations?
0:56:55 > 0:57:01No, what will help, and I hope it happens, is when both sides are
0:57:01 > 0:57:07civilised and realise... Listen, for centuries, blood has flown between
0:57:07 > 0:57:13us and them, and we are much more united than we seem to be thinking.
0:57:13 > 0:57:19That will help. One thing pointed out is some other products you
0:57:19 > 0:57:24included are made by firms who are worried they will be hit hard by EU
0:57:24 > 0:57:29withdrawal, Marmite and PG tips made by Unilever, the Anglo Dutch
0:57:29 > 0:57:33company, warning they might have to consolidate their headquarters away
0:57:33 > 0:57:43from here. Was that a gaffe? Of course not. You see in many
0:57:43 > 0:57:48international meetings, from heads of states, the Queen, guests are
0:57:48 > 0:57:53handed over. That is how we approached this. Not as a stunt but
0:57:53 > 0:57:58as an open hand of friendship to Michel Barnier. He was meeting for
0:57:58 > 0:58:06the first time a group of important and well spoken leaders, to express
0:58:06 > 0:58:11a view across the spectrum from the Labour Party, conservatives and
0:58:11 > 0:58:16those in the centre, with Lord Digby Jones, that we have strong support
0:58:16 > 0:58:20to continue Brexit and despite those who had turned up and seen him like
0:58:20 > 0:58:24Nick Clegg and Andrew Adonis, there will be no turning back on Brexit.
0:58:24 > 0:58:34He was clear, he accepted that. We seem to have lost him.
0:58:34 > 0:58:39Philip Hammond is to tell German business leaders in Berlin the EU
0:58:39 > 0:58:44needs to clarify the post Brexit relations it wants. Has the UK would
0:58:44 > 0:58:48further than the EU? I thought before Christmas when we
0:58:48 > 0:58:53got the agreement on phase one, it marked a sea change, it seemed much
0:58:53 > 0:59:02more constructive from the EU 27. That this is something that is
0:59:02 > 0:59:06happening. Has the UK moved too far?No, we're
0:59:06 > 0:59:10making good progress and I hope to see constructive engagement from the
0:59:10 > 0:59:16EU continuing. We will stick this good afterwards!
0:59:16 > 0:59:20Bag you for joining us from Brussels, and here in the studio.
0:59:20 > 0:59:21That's all for today.
0:59:21 > 0:59:22Thanks to our guests.
0:59:22 > 0:59:26The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now.
0:59:26 > 0:59:28And I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big
0:59:28 > 0:59:30political stories of the day.