0:00:38 > 0:00:42Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:42 > 0:00:45Donald Trump says he won't come to Britain for a visit
0:00:45 > 0:00:47next month after all, with claims he isn't
0:00:47 > 0:00:51coming because of fears he won't be made welcome.
0:00:51 > 0:00:55We've been speaking to Momentum founder Jon Lansman
0:00:55 > 0:00:58about elections for Labour's ruling body that could have a big impact
0:00:58 > 0:01:01on the future of the party.
0:01:01 > 0:01:05Nigel Farage says we should have a second EU referendum,
0:01:05 > 0:01:07but also says he doesn't want one.
0:01:07 > 0:01:09We'll speak to the current leader of Ukip and try
0:01:09 > 0:01:15to clear up the confusion.
0:01:15 > 0:01:19And there's speculation it could be Oprah versus The Donald at the next
0:01:19 > 0:01:21US presidential election, so why have celebrities
0:01:21 > 0:01:29here in Britain had less luck at the ballot box?
0:01:29 > 0:01:32All that in the next hour, and with us for the duration it's
0:01:32 > 0:01:33the journalists Rachel Shabi and Tim Montgomerie.
0:01:33 > 0:01:36Welcome to the show.
0:01:36 > 0:01:41So, in the latest twist in the will-he-won't-he saga
0:01:41 > 0:01:44surrounding a visit to the UK by Donald Trump, the US President
0:01:44 > 0:01:47has confirmed he won't be going ahead with at least one trip
0:01:47 > 0:01:49planned for next month.
0:01:49 > 0:01:53The story was broken by the Daily Mail this morning,
0:01:53 > 0:01:58which said that Mr Trump had gone cold on plans to officially open
0:01:58 > 0:02:01the new US embassy in London.
0:02:01 > 0:02:04The paper says he took the decision amid fears he wouldn't be welcome.
0:02:04 > 0:02:07Mr Trump confirmed the story himself this morning on Twitter.
0:02:07 > 0:02:10He said, "The reason I cancelled my trip to London is that
0:02:10 > 0:02:12I am not a big fan of the Obama Administration having sold
0:02:12 > 0:02:15perhaps the best located and finest embassy in London for peanuts,
0:02:15 > 0:02:19only to build a new one in an off location for $1.2 billion.
0:02:19 > 0:02:23Bad deal. Wanted me to cut ribbon - NO!"
0:02:23 > 0:02:31That's a reference to the fact that the US embassy is being moved
0:02:33 > 0:02:34from Mayfair in London to Battersea.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37Well, critics of the president have been welcoming the news, with the
0:02:37 > 0:02:40Labour Mayor of London Sadiq Khan saying, "Many Londoners have made it
0:02:40 > 0:02:43clear that Donald Trump is not welcome here while he is pursuing
0:02:43 > 0:02:44such a divisive agenda.
0:02:44 > 0:02:45It seems he's finally got that message."
0:02:45 > 0:02:48But that response irked the Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson,
0:02:48 > 0:02:49who in turn tweeted,
0:02:49 > 0:02:53"The US is the biggest single investor in the UK -
0:02:53 > 0:02:55yet Khan and Corbyn seem determined to put this crucial
0:02:55 > 0:02:59relationship at risk.
0:02:59 > 0:03:02We will not allow US-UK relations to be endangered by some puffed up
0:03:02 > 0:03:10pompous popinjay in City Hall."
0:03:10 > 0:03:16Donald Trump dividing opinion as always, not just in the US.
0:03:16 > 0:03:20Are you relieved he isn't coming to open the US embassy?Amat for once
0:03:20 > 0:03:24and for once I might be closer to the Labour view on this than to the
0:03:24 > 0:03:29Tory view and the UK have a vital relationship and it is incredibly
0:03:29 > 0:03:33important we invest in that relationship. But there comes a
0:03:33 > 0:03:36time, after so many outrageous remarks by Donald Trump and we must
0:03:36 > 0:03:41draw a line. I think we can make a distinction between having a good
0:03:41 > 0:03:45relationship with the United States and having to honour a president,
0:03:45 > 0:03:49who, contrary to your view about devising opinion, I think he
0:03:49 > 0:03:54actually unites Britain. I think most British people find almost all
0:03:54 > 0:03:59of his views and acceptable.Apart from Boris Johnson, it seems. In
0:03:59 > 0:04:03terms of that relationship with the USA, would you still go as far as to
0:04:03 > 0:04:08say he should not come on any sort of state visit or political visit?
0:04:08 > 0:04:13He is obviously not welcome, isn't he. I think this has shown the power
0:04:13 > 0:04:16of protest on one hand and also it is very heartening that the British
0:04:16 > 0:04:22public will look at someone like this misogynist, racist president,
0:04:22 > 0:04:27and say no, we not having it. I think that shows a real moral
0:04:27 > 0:04:33clarity. I wish our PM could demonstrate even an ounce of the
0:04:33 > 0:04:42same moral clarity over Trump.To be fair,
0:04:42 > 0:04:45fair, when he re-tweeted those remarks from a far right group...
0:04:45 > 0:04:50That went over a line for her.It is difficult for a sitting Prime
0:04:50 > 0:04:56Minister to be difficult with our most important ally. It is easy for
0:04:56 > 0:05:01us as commentators from outside to be morally righteous but for a Prime
0:05:01 > 0:05:08Minister who has to work on a daily basis on trade and security...Other
0:05:08 > 0:05:14world leaders have had to work with Trump as well and they have been...
0:05:14 > 0:05:19They have welcomed him. To France... That they have not welcomed his
0:05:19 > 0:05:22comments and they have been more vocal in criticising his comments
0:05:22 > 0:05:28than she has been.Should the state invitation be withdrawn? That is not
0:05:28 > 0:05:33what Emily Thornberry has said.Do not think he is welcome here.So
0:05:33 > 0:05:36would you stand up and say, the Labour Party would like his
0:05:36 > 0:05:43invitation stopped.If Jeremy Corbyn -- Jeremy Corbyn has said that if
0:05:43 > 0:05:49Trump came here, you'd take to a mosque and show them our brilliant
0:05:49 > 0:05:55diversity.Why don't Labour say the invitation should be withdrawn?I
0:05:55 > 0:05:59don't know, personally...Ceremony double standards. We have leaders
0:05:59 > 0:06:03from the Middle East where women are not just treated badly on Twitter by
0:06:03 > 0:06:09the of state but are treated badly by second-class rights.I don't
0:06:09 > 0:06:16think just women are treated badly on Twitter by Trump!And we had the
0:06:16 > 0:06:19Chinese leadership, who represses his people in multiple ways so there
0:06:19 > 0:06:24are a lot of double standards from people in politics saying that Trump
0:06:24 > 0:06:28is beyond the pale when other leaders are not.That is the case,
0:06:28 > 0:06:32we have had leaders from countries which you and others would also say
0:06:32 > 0:06:36are against human rights, committing all sorts of abuses against their
0:06:36 > 0:06:41own people. Yet they still come here on visits.There's always been a lot
0:06:41 > 0:06:47of hypocrisy in politics, there is no question of it.Underlying
0:06:47 > 0:06:51anti-American is on the left that will always judge America more
0:06:51 > 0:06:58harshly.And must be enthused about judging America more harshly.That's
0:06:58 > 0:07:03not even true. Listen to the way the left talks about Saudi officials and
0:07:03 > 0:07:07the British relationship with Saudi Arabia. That is not true,
0:07:07 > 0:07:11manifestly. Yet it is fine for the British public to have this adverse
0:07:11 > 0:07:17reaction to somebody as divisive and as racist as some unlike Trump.Why
0:07:17 > 0:07:22march against him and not other leaders?I think people do much
0:07:22 > 0:07:30against all sorts of leaders.They don't, really!President Trump last
0:07:30 > 0:07:35night claiming that leaders from Africa and Haiti came from, I won't
0:07:35 > 0:07:39repeat his word, but saying, not very good countries. Has this
0:07:39 > 0:07:42crossed the line of acceptability, should the Prime Minister intervene
0:07:42 > 0:07:47and save this is not acceptable?And is an extraordinary remark from the
0:07:47 > 0:07:51leader of a country made up of immigrants to talk in those terms.
0:07:51 > 0:07:56He said, why can't we have more people from Norway, apparently. As
0:07:56 > 0:08:00somebody wrote on Twitter earlier, Norwegians were among the first
0:08:00 > 0:08:06settlers to America and also faced discrimination. It is as if there is
0:08:06 > 0:08:08no acceptable immigrant in the eyes of Donald Trump about that is why
0:08:08 > 0:08:13London has reacted strongly to him because London is also a city of
0:08:13 > 0:08:17immigrants. And for him to come here did potentially offend many people.
0:08:17 > 0:08:23Would you like Labour to condemn Venezuela and Iran?I just love the
0:08:23 > 0:08:30way that that is crowbared into every discussion!Glad I didn't
0:08:30 > 0:08:36disappoint.You have an Venezuelan leader supported by Jeremy Corbyn
0:08:36 > 0:08:41who is causing massive misery... There is a clarity over the politics
0:08:41 > 0:08:48of Trump that there is not of the politics of Venezuela.And Iran?
0:08:48 > 0:08:52Again Labour was asked to condemn the abuses carried out in Iran and
0:08:52 > 0:08:57they have not been clear on that, certainly not from Jeremy Corbyn.
0:08:57 > 0:09:04Meet him at the abuses over protests?
0:09:04 > 0:09:07protests?-- the abuses over protests? I think that the way that
0:09:07 > 0:09:11the regime has clamped down on the protests in Iran should be
0:09:11 > 0:09:17condemned.But not in Venezuela! Let's leave it there.
0:09:17 > 0:09:20A short while ago voting finished in elections for new members
0:09:20 > 0:09:21of Labour's National Executive Committee.
0:09:21 > 0:09:23That's the party's governing body, which sets its strategic
0:09:23 > 0:09:24direction and oversees the policy-making process.
0:09:24 > 0:09:26So what's at stake in the contest?
0:09:26 > 0:09:30The NEC, as it's known, currently has 39 members mostly composed
0:09:30 > 0:09:30of elected politicians, trade union representatives,
0:09:30 > 0:09:33and members from constituency Labour parties.
0:09:33 > 0:09:36It has been finely balanced between members seen as those
0:09:36 > 0:09:39sympathetic to the Labour leader's plans and those broadly sceptical.
0:09:39 > 0:09:41At the 2017 conference Labour decided to create three
0:09:41 > 0:09:44new positions representing party members,
0:09:44 > 0:09:52in response to the membership rising to more than 600,000
0:09:59 > 0:10:02under Jeremy Corbyn.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05Nine candidates are competing for the three seats -
0:10:05 > 0:10:07and it's expected that the more pro-Corbyn trio will win.
0:10:07 > 0:10:10They're backed by Momentum - whose leader, Jon Lansman,
0:10:10 > 0:10:12is one of the candidates, and a long-time advocate
0:10:12 > 0:10:13for a more left-wing Labour.
0:10:13 > 0:10:16There's concern among some in the party that this will entrench
0:10:16 > 0:10:18the power of those most enthusiastic about Jeremy Corbyn.
0:10:18 > 0:10:22Separately today is also the deadline for Labour members
0:10:22 > 0:10:24to give their views on the first phase of the party's
0:10:24 > 0:10:27Democracy Review, which is carried out by Jeremy Corbyn's close ally
0:10:27 > 0:10:28Katy Clark.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31The proposals will be discussed by the NEC later this month.
0:10:31 > 0:10:33Well, our reporter Elizabeth Glinka sat down with Jon Lansman,
0:10:33 > 0:10:37and asked him what his priority was if he got on the NEC, and why
0:10:37 > 0:10:42the contest was so hard fought.
0:10:42 > 0:10:50My priority is to see that, er, the party becomes
0:10:50 > 0:10:52more of a members-led party.
0:10:52 > 0:10:54With members empowered, trusted, enabled to do what's necessary
0:10:54 > 0:10:59to win the next election.
0:10:59 > 0:11:05And you know, I think they've shown in the recent election
0:11:05 > 0:11:09what 600,000 members can do.
0:11:09 > 0:11:12To have millions of conversations, and turn around an election
0:11:12 > 0:11:15campaign, the biggest turnaround we've had in an election
0:11:15 > 0:11:22campaign in British history.
0:11:22 > 0:11:25So I think more of that is what we need to actually
0:11:25 > 0:11:27win the next election.
0:11:27 > 0:11:31There's a debate, there are independent candidates,
0:11:31 > 0:11:33not all the candidates are on slates, and there should
0:11:33 > 0:11:38be a debate, that's democracy.
0:11:38 > 0:11:40We're a democratic party.
0:11:40 > 0:11:42Thinking about democracy of course we've got the first proposals
0:11:42 > 0:11:44of the democracy review expected this month.
0:11:44 > 0:11:47Is this review about making it easier for your faction to dominate
0:11:47 > 0:11:49and silence the people that you don't agree with?
0:11:49 > 0:11:53Not at all.
0:11:53 > 0:11:56First of all, there have always been differences of view.
0:11:56 > 0:11:59I actually am delighted that the Labour Party,
0:11:59 > 0:12:02after two leadership elections, admittedly, has now recognised that
0:12:02 > 0:12:09Jeremy is going to stay leader until he chooses otherwise.
0:12:09 > 0:12:17So we are now uniting around a real alternative to austerity.
0:12:19 > 0:12:20Is this process about deselections?
0:12:20 > 0:12:23When you talk about democracy and the views of the members,
0:12:23 > 0:12:25the new members being heard, are we talking about deselections?
0:12:25 > 0:12:27We will not campaign to deselect anybody.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30But it's right that the members get to choose who is the best
0:12:30 > 0:12:32person to represent, to stand for election
0:12:32 > 0:12:35and represent them in Parliament.
0:12:35 > 0:12:42And we've got 600,000 members now.
0:12:42 > 0:12:44Who know their communities, and who know the people they work
0:12:44 > 0:12:45with in their workplaces.
0:12:45 > 0:12:48And they are in the best position to make judgments
0:12:48 > 0:12:49about who the right candidates are.
0:12:49 > 0:12:51There are hundreds of thousands of members
0:12:51 > 0:12:53who are enthusiastic about the change to
0:12:53 > 0:12:59the Labour Party, and it's brought them into activity,
0:12:59 > 0:13:01it's tripled the size of the party.
0:13:01 > 0:13:04How can you see that as anything other than a good thing?
0:13:04 > 0:13:07You signed that petition last month calling for the process
0:13:07 > 0:13:12for the selection of councillors in London to be re-run.
0:13:12 > 0:13:16Is that still a position you would take?
0:13:16 > 0:13:19Well, I do think that some of the selections in London
0:13:19 > 0:13:27and around the country have not been properly run.
0:13:28 > 0:13:36There has been confusion between the people overseeing
0:13:36 > 0:13:38elections and council leaders, and it's as if, it's
0:13:38 > 0:13:40about minimising the number of dissidents in a Labour group.
0:13:40 > 0:13:42But we actually need debate amongst our elected representatives,
0:13:42 > 0:13:46wherever we are in government, locally or nationally.
0:13:46 > 0:13:48And there should be a fair and reasonable process.
0:13:48 > 0:13:50That's all I'm after.
0:13:50 > 0:13:53I want to see in all internal selections and elections,
0:13:53 > 0:14:00processes in which all sections of the party feel that they can back
0:14:00 > 0:14:02a candidate that they support.
0:14:02 > 0:14:05And, you know, the person with the most votes ends up winning.
0:14:05 > 0:14:08But at least they can feel they've had a fair process,
0:14:08 > 0:14:10that's what I want to see.
0:14:10 > 0:14:12That was Jon Lansman, and we'll find out if he was successful
0:14:12 > 0:14:17in the elections on Monday.
0:14:17 > 0:14:19We're joined now by Stephanie Lloyd from Progress -
0:14:19 > 0:14:22that's a group within Labour that has backed an alternative slate
0:14:22 > 0:14:23of candidates for the NEC.
0:14:23 > 0:14:26And Rachel Shabi is still here - she's a supporter of
0:14:26 > 0:14:28the group Momentum.
0:14:28 > 0:14:34Welcome, Stephanie. Why are you worried about Jon Lansman and the
0:14:34 > 0:14:38Momentum slate being elected?Our big worry about this is, what is he
0:14:38 > 0:14:43going to do with the power that he will then get. So if you have come
0:14:43 > 0:14:47at the balance of the NEC previously, it's about challenge,
0:14:47 > 0:14:52making sure that of their processes. And what we are going to see is,
0:14:52 > 0:14:54rather than the Labour Party internally spending its time on
0:14:54 > 0:15:00fighting a shambolic Conservative government, it will spend its time,
0:15:00 > 0:15:06rather than trying to elect Labour MPs, electing Momentum MPs and
0:15:06 > 0:15:10deselecting current ones.Isn't he just talking about democracy? The
0:15:10 > 0:15:13party has swelled its ranks with hundreds of thousands of new members
0:15:13 > 0:15:18and they should have their say.They should have their say and that is
0:15:18 > 0:15:21fine. One thing I find slightly hypocritical from Jon Lansman at
0:15:21 > 0:15:25best is the fact that there's been a massive swell in our membership. And
0:15:25 > 0:15:30that is only a good thing. But rather than at the grassroots people
0:15:30 > 0:15:35coming through as candidates it is the leader of that group, Momentum,
0:15:35 > 0:15:39supported, yes, but those people often shuddered with the debate. I
0:15:39 > 0:15:45don't think we can say Momentum is particularly a democratic
0:15:45 > 0:15:48organisation. You can see what they did with their constitution.Do you
0:15:48 > 0:15:54understand the fears by Stephanie?
0:15:57 > 0:16:03I think the party has this historically high membership, over
0:16:03 > 0:16:06half a million, looking at Western Europe, that is a lot of people. To
0:16:06 > 0:16:10some people, what Momentum and the Labour leadership has said they are
0:16:10 > 0:16:16doing and wants to do, through these NEC changes proposed, the Democratic
0:16:16 > 0:16:21review proposed, it is democratising the party. For some people who are
0:16:21 > 0:16:25used to a more polished centralised version of politics, that huge
0:16:25 > 0:16:28number of people getting into politics is going to look unruly. It
0:16:28 > 0:16:32is going to look messy. And I think that is what has
0:16:32 > 0:16:37happened, but I think it would be a mistake and a disservice to people
0:16:37 > 0:16:40who are engaged with politics in such a positive way, for the first
0:16:40 > 0:16:45time, people reconnecting with the Labour Party, and they want to bring
0:16:45 > 0:16:51it to power, and to induce them -- accuse them of behaving in an
0:16:51 > 0:16:56undemocratic way does them a huge disservice.I think there is a huge
0:16:56 > 0:16:59difference between the people who have got engaged in politics,
0:16:59 > 0:17:02particularly a lot of young people, and how I got involved was to the
0:17:02 > 0:17:06youth movement and campaigning, and the leadership of momentum, and they
0:17:06 > 0:17:09are two different things, and I think what we have seen, even if you
0:17:09 > 0:17:14look at the democracy review, the party on the NEC, as soon as it had
0:17:14 > 0:17:18its control over that, rather than the normal process electing the
0:17:18 > 0:17:21Utrecht, rather than any consultation with youth members are
0:17:21 > 0:17:25waiting on the democracy review on how the new NEC would be elected, in
0:17:25 > 0:17:30contradiction to what the current group wanted, it was whitewashed
0:17:30 > 0:17:33over in a way that was purely factional to get their candidates
0:17:33 > 0:17:40and their slate people elected, so my concern is not to get our party
0:17:40 > 0:17:43elected, I was out doorknocking with fantastic young people involved, but
0:17:43 > 0:17:46the other one is constantly shadowed by the leadership when it comes to
0:17:46 > 0:17:51the next stage of this.But it is not what they are saying.But they
0:17:51 > 0:17:55shut down their own youth movement. We saw Momentum shutdown without any
0:17:55 > 0:18:00consultation there on his movement that supported them.Do you think
0:18:00 > 0:18:04there is a risk here that actually Jon Lansman, although he said in
0:18:04 > 0:18:08that interview we don't want to see these elections or reason elections,
0:18:08 > 0:18:11but he did say that with some selection of councillors in London,
0:18:11 > 0:18:16he felt that there had been collusion, and he did want to see
0:18:16 > 0:18:20those rerun and represent the membership at large. In the end
0:18:20 > 0:18:26isn't Jon Lansman on the Momentum wing of the party complaining about
0:18:26 > 0:18:30exactly the same thing as Stephanie. Nobody likes dissent and wants
0:18:30 > 0:18:32people to disagree with their version of what the party should
0:18:32 > 0:18:38look like?This is messy, and a lot of people, trying to claim what is
0:18:38 > 0:18:44going on, you know, the things that have been going on with councillors
0:18:44 > 0:18:47for example in Haringey -- I am trying to explain what is going on.
0:18:47 > 0:18:52A lot of people are really angry with her that council has behaved.
0:18:52 > 0:18:57And therefore they have a right to say they don't want them.Veto,
0:18:57 > 0:19:01but...The apparatus or they don't want those policies that are
0:19:01 > 0:19:04materially affecting their lives, damaging their lives, and that is
0:19:04 > 0:19:09absolutely fine --they do.But it is being portrayed as some sort of
0:19:09 > 0:19:13takeover by a cult, which has not been the case at all.It may not be
0:19:13 > 0:19:17a cold, but is it a takeover, an attempt rightly or wrongly to
0:19:17 > 0:19:23entrench the power of Jeremy Corbyn and Momentum? -- it may not be a
0:19:23 > 0:19:29cult.If people have joined the party because the politics of Jeremy
0:19:29 > 0:19:33Corbyn resonate with them and they feel good with society and they are
0:19:33 > 0:19:35democratically getting engaged and involved in politics, what exactly
0:19:35 > 0:19:40is the problem?Rachel is representing what Labour Party
0:19:40 > 0:19:43members actually want to see, and they support the policies of Jeremy
0:19:43 > 0:19:46Corbyn. You are just not doing it well enough, you are not keeping up
0:19:46 > 0:19:52your side of the Labour Party, just not doing it as well as Momentum?
0:19:52 > 0:19:57That is definitely a part of that, and I think what Jeremy and Momentum
0:19:57 > 0:20:01captured in terms of engagement and hope is not something anybody should
0:20:01 > 0:20:06scoff at and I certainly never would do so. My problem is what you then
0:20:06 > 0:20:10take people's aspirations with, and what they want in terms of the
0:20:10 > 0:20:15future, and make it into pure factionalism, about control and
0:20:15 > 0:20:19controlling the entire party doesn't my worry is, and I was sat at my
0:20:19 > 0:20:22local Labour Party meeting last night in Stratton, one of the most
0:20:22 > 0:20:29deprived areas in London and I would say the whole country -- Streatham.
0:20:29 > 0:20:33And this was almost the best depiction of it. The most upwardly
0:20:33 > 0:20:36mobile and young white university educated woman beats a 16-year-old
0:20:36 > 0:20:39local activist because she didn't have the right kind of politics or
0:20:39 > 0:20:43didn't know the right people and was not introduced onto the slate.
0:20:43 > 0:20:47Doesn't that go against everything you and Momentum and Jeremy Corbyn
0:20:47 > 0:20:51believe?I have no idea because I have no idea of the context of what
0:20:51 > 0:20:55you are describing, but what I do know...We see councillorsup and
0:20:55 > 0:21:00down the country who are representative of their own
0:21:00 > 0:21:04communities being deselected.No, we actually have not seen that. Up and
0:21:04 > 0:21:08down the country we have seen an upsurge of people getting involved
0:21:08 > 0:21:12in politics, whether at constituency level or at a local level, and they
0:21:12 > 0:21:15have every right to do that and they have every right to decide whether
0:21:15 > 0:21:20their candidate represents them or not. As it happens, in most cases
0:21:20 > 0:21:24across the country, the candidates that the... This Labour candidates
0:21:24 > 0:21:27that stood for the general elections are not being kicked out at all. In
0:21:27 > 0:21:33fact, the opposite is true, because they forged nice relationships, the
0:21:33 > 0:21:36constituency and the candidate, they develop good relations during a snap
0:21:36 > 0:21:41election, and they are not being kicked out.What do you say about
0:21:41 > 0:21:46the criticisms and accusations levelled about intimidation, about
0:21:46 > 0:21:51behaviour that has become toxic within the party against different
0:21:51 > 0:21:55factions, that come from Momentum, so the accusations go, on Twitter,
0:21:55 > 0:22:01social media or at meetings?I mean, I am not here to defend people being
0:22:01 > 0:22:05obnoxious. But I am here to say that sometimes some of this is going to
0:22:05 > 0:22:09look angry. People in Haringey for instance have every right to be
0:22:09 > 0:22:15angry at what that council tried to impose on their behalf with that
0:22:15 > 0:22:19sell-off of council housing. That is an entirely legitimate reaction to
0:22:19 > 0:22:24have.Even to have that sort of behaviour as you see being expressed
0:22:24 > 0:22:28in an unruly, messy and intimidating way.I'm not there to support people
0:22:28 > 0:22:31being intimidating or obnoxious but what I am saying is that is not
0:22:31 > 0:22:34representative of what is going on up and down the country, and this
0:22:34 > 0:22:42tactic of horning in on, you know, obnoxious examples to try to make it
0:22:42 > 0:22:44representative of the entire movement, it does that movement at
0:22:44 > 0:22:52the service -- this tactic of honing in.I will bring you in. Looking
0:22:52 > 0:22:55from the outside, the Conservative Party have a lot to be envious
0:22:55 > 0:23:00about, the membership numbers. Talking about how low Conservative
0:23:00 > 0:23:04members are.And you're failing to get answers from your Tory guest...
0:23:04 > 0:23:08LAUGHTER We are talking about 600,000 in
0:23:08 > 0:23:12labour and the Conservatives are the fourth biggest party. A worrying is
0:23:12 > 0:23:15that?I think the Tories have massive problems with the grassroots
0:23:15 > 0:23:20and I am very happy to dissect those, but I do also worried
0:23:20 > 0:23:22about... Before the election there was a huge number of Labour MPs who
0:23:22 > 0:23:26objected to Jeremy Corbyn's leadership on the grounds of
0:23:26 > 0:23:32principle, and their silence since the election has been an
0:23:32 > 0:23:35extraordinary thing, a desertion of duty. I think part of the reason is
0:23:35 > 0:23:38that they are intimidated by too many activists in the Labour Party
0:23:38 > 0:23:40who are unfortunately extreme, and I think it is good to you this
0:23:40 > 0:23:45discussion between these two Labour activists, lifting the lid lately on
0:23:45 > 0:23:50what I'm afraid I'm not just isolated examples of intimidation
0:23:50 > 0:23:52and obnoxious behaviour, but I'm afraid there are too many people
0:23:52 > 0:23:57amongst that 600,000 membership who do seem to be behaving in ways that
0:23:57 > 0:24:02on Twitter, and we see it all the time, are well beyond the limits of
0:24:02 > 0:24:06decent comradely behaviour.What you say in response, Rachel?I see the
0:24:06 > 0:24:10Labour Party has got that many members and Momentum is doing so
0:24:10 > 0:24:13well because it has inspired people to get involved in politics in a way
0:24:13 > 0:24:18that we haven't seen for decades.Do you think MPs have not stood up
0:24:18 > 0:24:23since the election because they feel intimidated about standing against
0:24:23 > 0:24:26Jeremy Corbyn's position?I think they have been silence because they
0:24:26 > 0:24:31have seen that Jeremy Corbyn's politics was successful.It is one
0:24:31 > 0:24:36thing to accept he might be an electoral force...The increased the
0:24:36 > 0:24:41majority in many cases.Sorry I did not give you another say, Stephanie,
0:24:41 > 0:24:46but thank you for coming in. We will have to leave that one there.
0:24:46 > 0:24:49Should there be a second referendum on our membership of the EU?
0:24:49 > 0:24:51Until now that's an idea largely only supported by keen
0:24:51 > 0:24:53Remainers such as Tony Blair, and so yesterday many people
0:24:53 > 0:24:56were surprised to hear former Ukip leader Nigel Farage say this:
0:24:56 > 0:24:59The Cleggs, the Blairs, the Adonises will never ever ever give up.
0:24:59 > 0:25:01They will go on whingeing and whining and moaning,
0:25:01 > 0:25:06all the way through this process.
0:25:06 > 0:25:08So maybe, just maybe, and reaching the point
0:25:08 > 0:25:11of thinking that we should have a second referendum, because...
0:25:11 > 0:25:12On what?
0:25:12 > 0:25:13On EU membership.
0:25:13 > 0:25:14The whole thing?
0:25:14 > 0:25:15Yes, of course, of course.
0:25:15 > 0:25:17Unless you want to have a multiple-choice referendum.
0:25:17 > 0:25:18No, no, no, I'm amazed...
0:25:18 > 0:25:21I think if we had a second referendum on EU membership,
0:25:21 > 0:25:29we'd kill it off for a generation...
0:25:29 > 0:25:31So that's what Mr Farage had to say yesterday,
0:25:31 > 0:25:35but he went on to write an article for the Telegraph in which he said:
0:25:35 > 0:25:37"To be clear, I do not want a second referendum,
0:25:37 > 0:25:40but I fear one may be forced upon the country by Parliament."
0:25:40 > 0:25:42I'm not sure that was clear at all!
0:25:42 > 0:25:44"The best defence of our dramatic referendum victory," he went on,
0:25:44 > 0:25:48"is to be alive to the possibility of having to do it all over again."
0:25:48 > 0:25:50So what are we to make of that?
0:25:50 > 0:25:53Well, I'm joined now by the current leader of Ukip, Henry Bolton.
0:25:53 > 0:25:55Welcome to the product. Have you spoken to Nigel since he made his
0:25:55 > 0:26:02remarks?I have. -- welcome to the programme.What did he say?Nigel's
0:26:02 > 0:26:07point, whilst the party does remain opposed to a second referendum, for
0:26:07 > 0:26:12a range of reasons, we may well be confronted with it in the future.
0:26:12 > 0:26:18And there is a need to mobilise the entire Leave campaign with all the
0:26:18 > 0:26:20different elements to unite and actually ensure we do move this
0:26:20 > 0:26:25whole Brexit thing forward, because otherwise it will not be delivered
0:26:25 > 0:26:27in any meaningful form. That is really what he was talking about.
0:26:27 > 0:26:30What did you think when you heard him say the comments, and reaching
0:26:30 > 0:26:34the point of thinking we should have a second referendum on EU
0:26:34 > 0:26:38mentorship?Yes, to an extent, and what he is saying...What was your
0:26:38 > 0:26:43reaction?That was my reaction. I know Nigel, I know what was behind
0:26:43 > 0:26:50what he was saying, so how it has come across, yes, he was supportive
0:26:50 > 0:26:53potential of a second referendum, but that is not actually what he was
0:26:53 > 0:26:56saying.That is what he was saying! "I am reaching the point of thinking
0:26:56 > 0:27:01we should have a second referendum on EU member ship."But this needs
0:27:01 > 0:27:03to be sorted out because the Government is not delivering on
0:27:03 > 0:27:09Brexit.Patrick O'Flynn, colleagues, says he is as wrong on this as Tony
0:27:09 > 0:27:16Blair. Is he wrong right? -- a colleague of yours.Let's put it
0:27:16 > 0:27:20like this, the question.No, I could elect that.
0:27:20 > 0:27:22LAUGHTER If Nigel believed we should have a
0:27:22 > 0:27:25second referendum, and I agree that is how it came across, but if he
0:27:25 > 0:27:29believed that I would say he was wrong, but the point is we do not
0:27:29 > 0:27:40want a second referendum, absolutely clearly.Is that UK policy?
0:27:40 > 0:27:42clearly.Is that UK policy? Did he miss speak?To an extent, yes. If
0:27:42 > 0:27:47the Government forces one on us it would give us the opportunity to
0:27:47 > 0:27:52decisively put the whole thing to bed and say, you know what, you have
0:27:52 > 0:27:55to deliver a proper exiting of the European Union.That is what he
0:27:55 > 0:27:59meant? You've had a discussion sense and decided that as the line you
0:27:59 > 0:28:05have to put out because he has said something deeply because what
0:28:05 > 0:28:07evidence is there from the Government they are even considering
0:28:07 > 0:28:10one? -- he has said something deeply unhelpful, because what evidence is
0:28:10 > 0:28:17there.There is a debate, as you well know, Jo, about should we have
0:28:17 > 0:28:23another referendum, should we have a vote on a future agreement, or
0:28:23 > 0:28:27should we not?Can I put it to you that actually before it was never
0:28:27 > 0:28:30really being discussed as a viable option apart from the Liberal
0:28:30 > 0:28:35Democrats who actually were not sure about a second referendum and now
0:28:35 > 0:28:37are, until Nigel Farage Paul Thorburn said, I think we should
0:28:37 > 0:28:40have a second referendum. I don't remember any of the other ministers
0:28:40 > 0:28:47-- until Nigel
0:28:47 > 0:28:51-- until Nigel Farage popped up. This is a call to arms for the Leave
0:28:51 > 0:28:54camp. If indeed the Conservative Government was delivering a Brexit,
0:28:54 > 0:28:59moving to appoint where we had a meaningful leaving of the European
0:28:59 > 0:29:02Union and the picture as to how we were all going to emerge from it,
0:29:02 > 0:29:07then indeed this would not be necessary. But what he is saying,
0:29:07 > 0:29:11that the Leave camp as a whole needs to unite, mobilise and needs to make
0:29:11 > 0:29:14sure that Theresa May and the Government deliver Brexit, and they
0:29:14 > 0:29:19are not doing so at the moment.But he has normalised it now, the issue,
0:29:19 > 0:29:33and it will now be debated. He has handed to people
0:29:36 > 0:29:39like Andrew Adonis, Tony Blair, and others within the Labour Party, the
0:29:39 > 0:29:41parliamentary party, the Remainers, he has handed them a gift?I would
0:29:41 > 0:29:44see if we have a second referendum now I would agree with Nigel, we
0:29:44 > 0:29:47would win it, hands down. So we are not worried about that. We have had
0:29:47 > 0:29:49a democratic mandate...But he has actually raised the whole prospect
0:29:49 > 0:29:54of this being debated further. Do you accept that? Big E ago against
0:29:54 > 0:29:58-- did he go against party policy when he said this?Not in that
0:29:58 > 0:30:06sense. If he had said, I want, or our policy is to have one...Are you
0:30:06 > 0:30:11going to take any action against him?No.It is not official UK
0:30:11 > 0:30:15policy. Do you think it has confused the issue for Ukip borders and
0:30:15 > 0:30:19others?I think he has confused a lot of people and Henry is doing a
0:30:19 > 0:30:22valiant job of trying to defend the remarks of his predecessor, which
0:30:22 > 0:30:29seemed to me to be all about Nigel Farage needing to be in the glare of
0:30:29 > 0:30:31publicity. He can't go a few days without getting the attention, but
0:30:31 > 0:30:38David Cameron, Nick Clegg, all sorts of people before the last Brexit
0:30:38 > 0:30:41referendum, they said this is your one chance to decide your future in
0:30:41 > 0:30:45Europe, and whatever you decide, as the British people, we will
0:30:45 > 0:30:50implement the decision. That is what counts. I'm glad to see Henry
0:30:50 > 0:30:55nodding, and I think any attempt to revisit that decision now will upset
0:30:55 > 0:30:58people's faith in democracy, it is not just the wrong thing to do for
0:30:58 > 0:31:04Brexit, I think it is dangerous for public faith in our institutions.
0:31:04 > 0:31:07Should the Labour Party be thinking about making a policy to offer the
0:31:07 > 0:31:17idea ofsecond referendum on the deal?Possibly, yes.
0:31:18 > 0:31:23Possibly yes. This idea of rerunning the referendum is a kind of assault
0:31:23 > 0:31:29on democracy. What is this, Brexit referendum, the final showdown? The
0:31:29 > 0:31:34last battle? How long will it go on? But I think there is a case to be
0:31:34 > 0:31:39made potentially for having a referendum on the deal.Should
0:31:39 > 0:31:48Labour be clear on that?Our concern on a second referendum is, and in a
0:31:48 > 0:31:51broader context, it sets a precedent, we've had a democratic
0:31:51 > 0:31:56exercise, a decision from it and Amanda date has effectively been
0:31:56 > 0:32:00issued -- mandate has been issued. Wait a minute, some people don't
0:32:00 > 0:32:05like it, let's revisit it. Democratic decisions...People will
0:32:05 > 0:32:12never trust the leaders again, they didn't like the decision, don't...
0:32:12 > 0:32:16Nigel Farage, in the referendum, said if the result was closer to be
0:32:16 > 0:32:20unfinished business. He implied at the time that there would and should
0:32:20 > 0:32:25be another referendum if it was close, although the other way.I
0:32:25 > 0:32:30think we could quote Nigel Farage to find support for most eventualities.
0:32:30 > 0:32:34Your private life has caused headlines recently and Nigel Farage
0:32:34 > 0:32:40says it is good for Ukip publicity. Do you agree?This week has been
0:32:40 > 0:32:46quite quiet, so I've had a lot of time to think about that subject.
0:32:46 > 0:32:50Tell us your thoughts.Quite honestly I would not have wanted in
0:32:50 > 0:32:55any way the publicity this has attracted. I would like it to die
0:32:55 > 0:32:59down. I've got things to sort out in my private life. I want to do it and
0:32:59 > 0:33:02focus on the job in hand which is the sort of stuff we've been talking
0:33:02 > 0:33:09about.Does it affect your job as leader of Ukip? Some have called for
0:33:09 > 0:33:13you to quit.Somehow but and receiving a huge amount of support
0:33:13 > 0:33:18as well saying this is his private life, let's get on with his agenda
0:33:18 > 0:33:21in turning around the internal workings of the party so that we
0:33:21 > 0:33:26have a firm solid base for exactly the sort of mobilisation we have
0:33:26 > 0:33:31been discussing.Henry Bolton, thank you.Thank you very much.
0:33:31 > 0:33:34Social media is having a big impact in lots of areas of society,
0:33:34 > 0:33:36and politics is no exception.
0:33:36 > 0:33:42But how are the parties adapting what they do in that traditional
0:33:42 > 0:33:44forum, the House of Commons, to this new electoral battlefield?
0:33:44 > 0:33:45Here's Emma Vardy.
0:33:45 > 0:33:48These days the parties just love delivering short sound bites to your
0:33:48 > 0:33:56social media feed.
0:33:56 > 0:33:59Each Wednesday after PMQs it doesn't take long for what's happening
0:33:59 > 0:34:02in there to pop up on here.
0:34:02 > 0:34:04The Prime Minister needs to understand that it's her policies...
0:34:04 > 0:34:07And they're getting rather adept at it.
0:34:07 > 0:34:15Mr Speaker...
0:34:16 > 0:34:19Almost every week, Jeremy Corbyn asks a question which to those
0:34:19 > 0:34:22watching PMQs might not sound much like a question at all.
0:34:22 > 0:34:24They have one eye on what soundbite's going on Facebook,
0:34:24 > 0:34:27and, packaged in the right way, it has the potential to get hundreds
0:34:27 > 0:34:33and thousands of views.
0:34:33 > 0:34:34Add some bold subtitles, a punchy headline graphic...
0:34:34 > 0:34:35And share.
0:34:35 > 0:34:39They're hoping their leader's big moment will go viral.
0:34:39 > 0:34:41Isn't that an admission that under his captaincy this
0:34:41 > 0:34:46ship is indeed sinking?
0:34:46 > 0:34:48Could they even be pre-scripting the perfect 30-second
0:34:48 > 0:34:54social media rant?
0:34:54 > 0:35:02I'll leave you to decide, but just look how far we've come.
0:35:05 > 0:35:07Parliament was once reluctant to even make debates public -
0:35:07 > 0:35:10before the first radio broadcast of the House of Commons
0:35:10 > 0:35:11began in 1975.
0:35:11 > 0:35:13I refer the honourable gentleman to the reply
0:35:13 > 0:35:14I gave some moments ago.
0:35:14 > 0:35:16Fast forward to the mid-90s, and most newspapers contain
0:35:16 > 0:35:24straightforward reports of political debates, until that died out.
0:35:24 > 0:35:26Now this, it seems, is political communication evolving once again.
0:35:26 > 0:35:29So I think that they have desperately tried to change the way
0:35:29 > 0:35:31they actually try to communicate, especially trying to reach young
0:35:31 > 0:35:34people, and trying to make it more sensationalist and more adversarial,
0:35:34 > 0:35:36and really a very very simple single message.
0:35:36 > 0:35:37Twenty-three thousand...
0:35:37 > 0:35:39APPLAUSE
0:35:39 > 0:35:42The Conservatives successfully targeted voters using Facebook
0:35:42 > 0:35:44in the 2015 election campaign, helping them to an
0:35:44 > 0:35:47unexpected victory.
0:35:47 > 0:35:49But last year Labour appear to have done far better online.
0:35:49 > 0:35:52Well, I think politicians are trying to reach people on social media
0:35:52 > 0:35:55who are exactly the opposite, frankly, of those who watch
0:35:55 > 0:35:56Daily Politics on a Sunday.
0:35:56 > 0:35:58They're younger, they've got a changed media diet -
0:35:58 > 0:36:01they're not actually necessarily watching much television,
0:36:01 > 0:36:03and certainly not necessarily consuming much political content.
0:36:03 > 0:36:05Sound bites are nothing new.
0:36:05 > 0:36:07I think now what we are simply seeing is sound bites
0:36:07 > 0:36:10being weaponised for social media as much as they've been used
0:36:10 > 0:36:13in mainstream media up until now.
0:36:13 > 0:36:19Is it really even worth anything for the electorate in terms
0:36:19 > 0:36:21of understanding the party or what their real
0:36:21 > 0:36:22intentions and messages are?
0:36:22 > 0:36:26I mean, I think there is a fear that, you know,
0:36:26 > 0:36:29having to fight above all these algorithms, fight above all the
0:36:29 > 0:36:31unbelievable noise of social media, is actually simplifying a message
0:36:31 > 0:36:34down to something that isn't even a message at all.
0:36:34 > 0:36:37You know, it is simply a wham-bam, really reducing politics even more
0:36:37 > 0:36:40than PMQs itself down to a kind of Punch and Judy show.
0:36:40 > 0:36:42But, you know, the digital world is an amazing
0:36:42 > 0:36:43new form of engagement.
0:36:43 > 0:36:46It's where plenty of people go to to learn about politics,
0:36:46 > 0:36:50and where some people only learn about politics, and of course
0:36:50 > 0:36:51if we are actually going to get successive generations to actually
0:36:51 > 0:36:54care about politics and have something to do with it,
0:36:54 > 0:36:57politics needs to transfer onto the digital world.
0:36:57 > 0:37:03We are putting record funding into the NHS and record funding...
0:37:03 > 0:37:06So next time you spot a certain kind of rant over the dispatch box,
0:37:06 > 0:37:09you'll know they're speaking to the people who might just come
0:37:09 > 0:37:14across it later on Facebook.
0:37:14 > 0:37:18Have you noticed the strategic change in Prime Minister's
0:37:18 > 0:37:20Questions, in the Commons in particular that the messages to go
0:37:20 > 0:37:25out on social media, no longer the TV bulletins, no longer a message
0:37:25 > 0:37:30beyond the chamber, it is to the core support.Definitely there has
0:37:30 > 0:37:35been a change. People have clocked that very few people watch PMQs live
0:37:35 > 0:37:42except through your show. Our hundreds and thousands of viewers!
0:37:42 > 0:37:46Apart from those. I think Labour has been working quite closely with its
0:37:46 > 0:37:52social media team said they have figured out that a bit of Jeremy
0:37:52 > 0:37:58Corbyn's PMQs can be shared, and it will be something quite generic,
0:37:58 > 0:38:02something that is not time specific. And they do very well on social
0:38:02 > 0:38:08media. As we have seen during the last election. Also it has been
0:38:08 > 0:38:12shown, I think the BBC survey showed that people who consume venues of
0:38:12 > 0:38:17the Internet are more likely to vote Labour and Labour voters are more
0:38:17 > 0:38:21likely to share social media content, so they are obviously
0:38:21 > 0:38:26taking advantage of those things as well.A conscious decision there,
0:38:26 > 0:38:31the Tories playing catch-up. Definitely getting better but a long
0:38:31 > 0:38:36way behind. I think you can exaggerate this. There's always been
0:38:36 > 0:38:41a sound bite element to PMQs. The six o'clock news can only give 20 or
0:38:41 > 0:38:4530 seconds. The difference is now, sometimes the clips on social media
0:38:45 > 0:38:50are longer than the TV gave to them. And of course it's not Laura
0:38:50 > 0:38:54Kuenssberg or the director of the producer of the news deciding what
0:38:54 > 0:38:58clips go out there, it's the political parties. So we are seeing
0:38:58 > 0:39:03a transfer of power, the old gatekeepers to the media no longer
0:39:03 > 0:39:07have the control that they used to. Not a bad thing.Let's leave it
0:39:07 > 0:39:09there.
0:39:09 > 0:39:11The Government had a big-ish reshuffle at the beginning
0:39:11 > 0:39:14of the week, and Labour will now have to have a smaller reshuffle
0:39:14 > 0:39:17of its own after the departure yesterday of the Shadow Fire
0:39:17 > 0:39:18Minister Chris Williamson.
0:39:18 > 0:39:20Mr Williamson's resignation was reportedly a mutual decision
0:39:20 > 0:39:27reached with leader Jeremy Corbyn, and came the day after he suggested
0:39:27 > 0:39:29council tax bills for the highest value homes in England
0:39:29 > 0:39:30should be doubled.
0:39:30 > 0:39:32Well, Chris Williamson himself can tell us more -
0:39:32 > 0:39:36he joins us now from Derby.
0:39:36 > 0:39:43Chris, did you resign or were you sacked?No, I stepped down because I
0:39:43 > 0:39:47wanted to spend a greater amount of my time campaigning and to give
0:39:47 > 0:39:53advice ordinary party members. Labour is now a mass movement. You
0:39:53 > 0:39:59probably saw Jeremy launch the Community Action Units the party has
0:39:59 > 0:40:03established. He's also been clear he wants to give party members a
0:40:03 > 0:40:07greater opportunity to influence party policy. I want to be a
0:40:07 > 0:40:19conduit, to be the members champion so that their views can be
0:40:20 > 0:40:22aired. And being on the front bench constrains what you can say. And
0:40:22 > 0:40:25given the varied ideas that are sure to come up from the grassroots it
0:40:25 > 0:40:27would have been more difficult, I think, to give voice to those...
0:40:27 > 0:40:31Clearly because you have had to go as a result of it. So clearly it was
0:40:31 > 0:40:33proving difficult. Quite a few of your colleagues have suggested that
0:40:33 > 0:40:39you were sacked. Wes streeting said doubling the council tax which is
0:40:39 > 0:40:42what you proposed will never be Labour policy, swift action by
0:40:42 > 0:40:48Jeremy Corbyn. And Clive Lewis said your fate and that of Toby Young
0:40:48 > 0:40:51demonstrates that with both parties neck and neck and in further
0:40:51 > 0:40:55parliamentary long haul, the war of attrition will see each side picking
0:40:55 > 0:40:58of those around their two respective generals. They obviously thought
0:40:58 > 0:41:03that you were sacked.
0:41:03 > 0:41:06that you were sacked.Wes has misunderstood the idea of looted.
0:41:06 > 0:41:10Its Tory party legislation introduced in 2012 that provides the
0:41:10 > 0:41:17opportunity for local authorities to offer variable discounts to council
0:41:17 > 0:41:22taxpayers in their local area, and also give them the ability to raise
0:41:22 > 0:41:27the council tax above the threshold which is specified by the Secretary
0:41:27 > 0:41:30of State at any given time. Of course this whole idea would have to
0:41:30 > 0:41:35be agreed by the electorate in local areas. So it's not a question of any
0:41:35 > 0:41:38local authority deciding unilaterally to double council tax
0:41:38 > 0:41:42and it isn't about doubling council tax, there's a range of
0:41:42 > 0:41:46permutations. In actual fact what this would do if any local authority
0:41:46 > 0:41:50to get forward would be to protect the vast majority of householders,
0:41:50 > 0:41:53certainly those on the lowest incomes would have their council tax
0:41:53 > 0:41:58frozen, possibly reduced, and the burden would therefore be carried by
0:41:58 > 0:42:04those with the broadest shoulders. A budget for the many not the few.Yet
0:42:04 > 0:42:08you haven't convinced those in your party and at the top of your party.
0:42:08 > 0:42:13Andrew Quinn, let me just ask you, he says it isn't the party policy
0:42:13 > 0:42:18and it conflicted with the party manifesto pledge not to raise taxes
0:42:18 > 0:42:25on 95% of the public and you are freelancing. What do you say to him?
0:42:25 > 0:42:29People probably haven't fully understood the idea I have floated,
0:42:29 > 0:42:37initially, the six months ago.He should know... He is Shadow...The
0:42:37 > 0:42:40point I am making is that I'm not suggesting it should be party
0:42:40 > 0:42:47policy, it's already the law of the land.So what were you suggesting?I
0:42:47 > 0:42:51am simply suggesting that local authorities can, if they wish, seize
0:42:51 > 0:42:55back the initiative. After eight years of relentless austerity and
0:42:55 > 0:43:04cuts, which has put people in a position where they are struggling
0:43:04 > 0:43:12to meet their basic obligations,... How many Labour Party members
0:43:12 > 0:43:16support this idea?Any local authority could take it forward if
0:43:16 > 0:43:20they wanted to stop the cuts which have been relentless over the last
0:43:20 > 0:43:24eight years. It is an opportunity for local authorities to do it if
0:43:24 > 0:43:29they wish.Is that they haven't supported it. Is it correct that
0:43:29 > 0:43:36people on the front bench should not contradict party policy?Jo, you are
0:43:36 > 0:43:41getting confused. It is not about party policy, this is already a
0:43:41 > 0:43:46Labour policy...I am asking, do you think members of the front bench
0:43:46 > 0:43:51should stick to party policy and not hand ammunition to the opposition?I
0:43:51 > 0:43:54don't think it's about handing admonition to the opposition, that's
0:43:54 > 0:44:01the last thing I'd wish to do.But you have done it.Hold on, any local
0:44:01 > 0:44:05authority, if they were to take this on board, would come I think,
0:44:05 > 0:44:11potentially find this to be something which is very...Let's
0:44:11 > 0:44:14show our viewers what the Tories have done with what they see as the
0:44:14 > 0:44:18ammunition. It has now been put up on screen. Chris Williamson of
0:44:18 > 0:44:22Labour has put forward plans that could see council tax doubled. I
0:44:22 > 0:44:30know that you say this should is not what you said, but this is what they
0:44:30 > 0:44:35have said, and has not helped Labour's campaign ahead of the local
0:44:35 > 0:44:38elections this year?You don't expect the Tories to tell the truth
0:44:38 > 0:44:42and clearly they are misrepresenting me. It is interesting that it is
0:44:42 > 0:44:46worth reinforcing the point that this has only been made possible
0:44:46 > 0:44:50because of legislation that the Tories are brought in. It was the
0:44:50 > 0:44:54Conservatives that introduced the local government Finance act in
0:44:54 > 0:44:572012, allowing local authorities this flexibility. Let's also
0:44:57 > 0:45:03remember the Tories have imposed huge swingeing funding cuts on local
0:45:03 > 0:45:09authorities. They're in an impossible position now.Apparently
0:45:09 > 0:45:15you have a new role. What is it? Jeremy's asked me, I've been
0:45:15 > 0:45:19conflicted about this for some time because I wanted to speak on a range
0:45:19 > 0:45:22of issues and push the envelope as far as possible although it has been
0:45:22 > 0:45:27constraining to some extent being on the front bench because you are
0:45:27 > 0:45:30constrained by collective responsibility, is not to say that I
0:45:30 > 0:45:34was seeking to move away from the Fire and Rescue Service because it
0:45:34 > 0:45:40is something I feel passionate about and I will still be a active member
0:45:40 > 0:45:47of the group, the Jeremy asked me to think through some of our future
0:45:47 > 0:45:52policy agenda on that regard and in addition to draw up a policy
0:45:52 > 0:45:54programme for consideration in relation to animal rights. That's
0:45:54 > 0:46:00something I've been passionate about all my life, I've been of Cregan for
0:46:00 > 0:46:0440 years and I am a hunt saboteur. It is something I'm keen to do to
0:46:04 > 0:46:09support the party in taking that Ford -- I have been a vegan for 40
0:46:09 > 0:46:14years.So you are still on good terms with Jeremy Corbyn even though
0:46:14 > 0:46:20you've parted company on this.He's a close friend of mine, a good
0:46:20 > 0:46:23comrade and in my view the best leader this party has ever had. And
0:46:23 > 0:46:28I include in that Clement Attlee. And he will be the best Prime
0:46:28 > 0:46:31Minister, not just the best Labour has ever produced but the best this
0:46:31 > 0:46:34country has ever produced if we win the election because he will
0:46:34 > 0:46:38transform the country and change the balance of power for ever. I
0:46:38 > 0:46:41genuinely hope he gets that opportunity and I am sure he will
0:46:41 > 0:46:46with the policies we are developing out.You couldn't be more clear with
0:46:46 > 0:46:53that. No hard feelings, then, thank you, Chris Williamson.
0:46:53 > 0:46:55Not at all!
0:46:55 > 0:46:57Theresa May's position on Brexit may have won her plenty of admirers
0:46:57 > 0:46:59among Conservative supporters, but those don't include
0:46:59 > 0:47:00the nightclub owner Peter Stringfellow.
0:47:00 > 0:47:04He's been a donor to the party - here he is pictured last year
0:47:04 > 0:47:05with the Prime Minister.
0:47:05 > 0:47:07But now he says he's ready to ditch the Tories
0:47:07 > 0:47:08over their support for Brexit.
0:47:08 > 0:47:11And Peter Stringfellow joins us now.
0:47:11 > 0:47:14Why are you prepared now to ditch the Tories? I don't like the word
0:47:14 > 0:47:20pitch.OK, say quitting.I don't like what is happening. I don't
0:47:20 > 0:47:28believe that Theresa May is a Brexiteer. In her heart, and I
0:47:28 > 0:47:34believe that the hard-core conservatives are all Remainers. The
0:47:34 > 0:47:39only chap you have had on who is a real Brexiteer, nice chap, you just
0:47:39 > 0:47:45had him on, Henry...Bolton.This is something people simply do not want.
0:47:45 > 0:47:50I am a European, British European, and that is where I see our future.
0:47:50 > 0:47:54Right, secure quitting the party. You will no longer be a member or
0:47:54 > 0:47:58donate money to the party?Not unless they change. You spoke about
0:47:58 > 0:48:02the referendum, all this stuff about democracy come a forget about that.
0:48:02 > 0:48:05Let's just have another general election, Labour parties be honest.
0:48:05 > 0:48:10You seem to be honest. I have been speaking to you. Let's be honest,
0:48:10 > 0:48:13totally, and let's have a general election when all parties see where
0:48:13 > 0:48:18they stand.We have had that already. You didn't get the answer
0:48:18 > 0:48:25you wanted.No, it was a sham, a total sham. £360 million going every
0:48:25 > 0:48:30week to the National... Of course it was a sham! Immigration is another
0:48:30 > 0:48:34one.But when did you have this moment, in your mind, that said,
0:48:34 > 0:48:37that's it, I've had it with the Tories. Because we have a picture of
0:48:37 > 0:48:42you with the Prime Minister, and you were certainly supporting the Tories
0:48:42 > 0:48:47at the election, weren't you?I was, yes.Before that, you supported
0:48:47 > 0:48:55Ukip, and you get as far as I know...No, no. I just supported a
0:48:55 > 0:48:59counsellor, in Westminster, and I would do that again tomorrow,
0:48:59 > 0:49:03against the...But they are the party wanted out of Europe?Not in
0:49:03 > 0:49:10Westminster council they didn't! Forget that bit. I am and have been
0:49:10 > 0:49:14longer than the majority of politicians now a conservative, from
0:49:14 > 0:49:19the early 60s. When I was in Sheffield I was probably the only
0:49:19 > 0:49:21guy who voted Conservative.And you still supported them in the
0:49:21 > 0:49:27election? But in the general election she made it clear...I woke
0:49:27 > 0:49:31up and you're right, wait a minute, this is all wrong, it's not going to
0:49:31 > 0:49:35change. It's not going to change unless people like me stand up and
0:49:35 > 0:49:40say, it's got to change. And we need more change now. Let's have a
0:49:40 > 0:49:43general election referendum, whatever you want to call it, and
0:49:43 > 0:49:48let's get it straight.You want to persuade Peter Stringfellow to stay
0:49:48 > 0:49:54within the Conservative Party?Not particularly.That is honest, I
0:49:54 > 0:49:56suppose.We will all cope and you are concerned with your businesses.
0:49:56 > 0:50:00I think what we are seeing post-Brexit is a huge re-juggling of
0:50:00 > 0:50:04the British political landscape. With the last election year at the
0:50:04 > 0:50:06extraordinary thing where Theresa May was basically winning as many
0:50:06 > 0:50:12working-class voters as Labour was, and a lot of more middle-class
0:50:12 > 0:50:15people were voting for Jeremy Corbyn. Something is changing.
0:50:15 > 0:50:18People like Peter Stringfellow, perhaps more metropolitan, moving
0:50:18 > 0:50:23away from the Tories, and lots of people who are the victims of
0:50:23 > 0:50:26Europe's immigration policies, there are cultural policies, they are
0:50:26 > 0:50:33saying enough is enough.People don't care about agricultural
0:50:33 > 0:50:38policies...They might not get in London. Answer me this. As a staunch
0:50:38 > 0:50:42conservative like I have been, do you honestly believe that Theresa
0:50:42 > 0:50:45May is a Brexiteer? I think she has docked the question when she has
0:50:45 > 0:50:51been asked! I think she is someone who is seizing the opportunities of
0:50:51 > 0:50:56Brexit.Who are you going to vote for now? Peter Stringfellow, if the
0:50:56 > 0:51:02party...Vince Cableright now and I don't know much about the Lib Dems.
0:51:02 > 0:51:07They always held a slight interest. In the old days, David Steel, had a
0:51:07 > 0:51:12great respect for him. Vince Cable is the man who is totally honest at
0:51:12 > 0:51:15the moment and for me...You are supporting the idea of a second
0:51:15 > 0:51:19referendum and a general election? Right, so you are going to support
0:51:19 > 0:51:24the Liberal Democrats? Will you give money to them?Why not? I'll give
0:51:24 > 0:51:30them a few pound.Are you aware whetherthey want your support,
0:51:30 > 0:51:36Peter? LAUGHTER
0:51:36 > 0:51:41'S Heiton go I love everybody, and a nightclub owner! You walk into my
0:51:41 > 0:51:46club, I love you --well, I love everybody.Do you think Labour will
0:51:46 > 0:51:50have to be clever very soon about the Brexit it once, whether we stay
0:51:50 > 0:51:55in the Single Market or the customs union?You know, I am looking
0:51:55 > 0:51:59forward to Peter joining the idea of creating a society for the many and
0:51:59 > 0:52:04not the few, and then maybe we can welcome, read Stringfellow to the
0:52:04 > 0:52:10project!Is labour-saving will stay in the Single Market and the customs
0:52:10 > 0:52:15union would you support the Labour Party? -- if the Labour Party say
0:52:15 > 0:52:19they will stay in the supermarket. Possibly! The country is divided on
0:52:19 > 0:52:24the medal. My answer, stay with the EC, the British EC, whatever you
0:52:24 > 0:52:39want a to see or call it.PU.
0:52:39 > 0:52:40--The EU.
0:52:40 > 0:52:42The burning question in American politics this week has
0:52:42 > 0:52:44been will Oprah Winfrey run for president?
0:52:44 > 0:52:46The talk show host gave a well-received speech at an awards
0:52:46 > 0:52:50ceremony in Hollywood at the start of the week and, perhaps in a sign
0:52:50 > 0:52:52of the impact of that other TV celebrity-turned politician
0:52:52 > 0:52:54Donald Trump, her appearance was followed by a flurry
0:52:54 > 0:52:56of speculation that she could run as a Democrat against
0:52:56 > 0:52:58Donald Trump in 2020.
0:52:58 > 0:53:00In a country that's elected Ronald Reagan
0:53:00 > 0:53:02and Arnold Schwarzenegger, the idea of celebrities running
0:53:02 > 0:53:03for office isn't that unusual.
0:53:03 > 0:53:05But here in Britain, why have famous names largely failed
0:53:05 > 0:53:07to break through at the ballot box?
0:53:07 > 0:53:09The pub landlord stood against the Ukip leader Nigel Farage
0:53:09 > 0:53:11at the 2015 general election in South Thanet.
0:53:11 > 0:53:12Not everyone was impressed.
0:53:12 > 0:53:14You're making a mockery of Thanet.
0:53:14 > 0:53:15Why are you doing it?
0:53:15 > 0:53:19Well, Farage lost, and so did Al Murray.
0:53:19 > 0:53:22International drug smuggler to MP - it's not the usual career
0:53:22 > 0:53:24trajectory, but that's what 'Mr Nice' Howard Marks
0:53:24 > 0:53:26tried to do in 1997.
0:53:26 > 0:53:28He stood for the Legalise Cannabis Party in four different seats,
0:53:28 > 0:53:33and didn't win any.
0:53:33 > 0:53:36Also in 97 former glamour model Katie Price, then known as Jordan,
0:53:36 > 0:53:40ran for election as an independent - she lost her deposit.
0:53:40 > 0:53:44It's been a great experience, and it's been a memory I won't forget.
0:53:44 > 0:53:46Celebrities in politics are not a new thing.
0:53:46 > 0:53:54In 1963 health scare to Prime Minister Harold Macmillan resigning.
0:53:54 > 0:53:56With Mr Alec Douglas-Home taking over the reins.
0:53:56 > 0:53:59The problem was he needed to resign his seat in the Lords
0:53:59 > 0:54:03and find a safe Commons seat.
0:54:03 > 0:54:05Actor and Private Eye founder Willie Rushton was so disgusted
0:54:05 > 0:54:08at the Conservative machinations that he stood against the PM.
0:54:08 > 0:54:13He polled just 45 votes.
0:54:13 > 0:54:15And, as you know, here at the Daily Politics
0:54:15 > 0:54:21we take our public service obligations very seriously,
0:54:21 > 0:54:24so when Bez from the Happy Mondays stood as an anti-fracking candidate
0:54:24 > 0:54:27in Salford and Eccles, we made sure to hold them to account.
0:54:27 > 0:54:29in Salford and Eccles, we made sure to hold himm to account.
0:54:29 > 0:54:32in Salford and Eccles, we made sure to hold him to account.
0:54:32 > 0:54:36On this platform of free food, free energy, free anything.If we don't
0:54:36 > 0:54:46move away from that, then the consequences are dire for us
0:54:47 > 0:54:50consequences are dire for us poor. There have been some success
0:54:50 > 0:55:01stories. The MP for Clacton in 2017. I have stood on many stages across
0:55:01 > 0:55:0445 countries in the world, but this has to be the finest.
0:55:04 > 0:55:06And we're joined now by the entertainment
0:55:06 > 0:55:09reporter Emma Bullimore.
0:55:09 > 0:55:12Welcome to the programme. What do you think about Oprah for President?
0:55:12 > 0:55:15I think it would be really exciting but I have to say I think it is
0:55:15 > 0:55:22wishful thinking at the moment. I think everybody got excited when
0:55:22 > 0:55:27Obama left the White House, Michelle 2020, and then she made this great
0:55:27 > 0:55:31speech at the Golden Globes, and people thought, just maybe, a great
0:55:31 > 0:55:34speech, the way she presented it, but I think at the moment it is a
0:55:34 > 0:55:39bit early.It may be early, but there is a history, is not a
0:55:39 > 0:55:43tradition, certainly a history of liberties succeeding in politics in
0:55:43 > 0:55:49America in a way that they do not here. Why?If you go into a ballot
0:55:49 > 0:55:52box in America you have those presidential names, but here you're
0:55:52 > 0:55:56supposed to be voting for the party. Theresa May, whatever your opinions
0:55:56 > 0:56:00on her, she is not dripping impersonality, it is about her
0:56:00 > 0:56:03policies, whereas there is a bit more about who you are as a person,
0:56:03 > 0:56:06and if you are having this big campaign that lasts for a long time
0:56:06 > 0:56:09and requires financial backing, why not pick someone who manages their
0:56:09 > 0:56:14image, is good at social media, and has a following already?Is it just
0:56:14 > 0:56:18about the system and the money here that we don't have the celebrities,
0:56:18 > 0:56:21the likes of Oprah Winfrey and Donald Trump succeeding in getting
0:56:21 > 0:56:27to the top of politics here?I don't know. Maybe we prefer actual
0:56:27 > 0:56:31political expertise...I thought experts were out at the moment!I
0:56:31 > 0:56:35don't think they should be out. It is a very disposable approach as
0:56:35 > 0:56:39well, not just celebrity culture but disposable culture, rather than
0:56:39 > 0:56:42looking at why politics has gone wrong and why it is alienating so
0:56:42 > 0:56:45many people, we have just gone, just get rid of it, let's bring
0:56:45 > 0:56:49celebrities in instead, which seems a very shallow approach.Do you
0:56:49 > 0:56:56agree?It is not possible to have no political experience and become
0:56:56 > 0:57:00elected, you would need to be elected locally and so on and so you
0:57:00 > 0:57:03comment not as a celebrity but a politician but in America it is
0:57:03 > 0:57:08different.Would you like to see more celebrity input? Glenda Jackson
0:57:08 > 0:57:12became an MP, did go through the system and did that in the Comments
0:57:12 > 0:57:15and left relatively recently and she was probably quite well known before
0:57:15 > 0:57:27that as an actress.-- the Commons. Yes, she was, and I think this might
0:57:27 > 0:57:30involve Oprah Winfrey, however good they are, because Donald Trump
0:57:30 > 0:57:33promise to make an impact of the working class people of America but
0:57:33 > 0:57:36all the things he passed, the massive tax cuts, they have really
0:57:36 > 0:57:41benefited exactly the same kind of people
0:57:41 > 0:57:42benefited exactly the same kind of people, the better off, that the
0:57:42 > 0:57:45Republican Party has always benefited. My hope in America is
0:57:45 > 0:57:48that there will be a swing back to more conventional politics where
0:57:48 > 0:57:52people are judged on their policy agenda rather than their
0:57:52 > 0:57:54personality. Perhaps we have learned, and the American people
0:57:54 > 0:57:58have led to this episode, that personality isn't necessarily the
0:57:58 > 0:58:01answer.We have at the cult of personality with Jeremy Corbyn, even
0:58:01 > 0:58:06if he did not start out as celebrity, Rachel Shabi. He has
0:58:06 > 0:58:10become a bit of a cult personality at things like Glastonbury?That was
0:58:10 > 0:58:14not really a cult of personality but it was people engaging with what at
0:58:14 > 0:58:18Labour leader had to say for the first time in a long time. There was
0:58:18 > 0:58:25a lot of playfulness there, a lot of irony. It's not really the same as
0:58:25 > 0:58:28progress is saying Oprah for president, that is an entirely
0:58:28 > 0:58:32different proposition.We turned politicians into celebrity, look at
0:58:32 > 0:58:40Boris on Have I Got News For You? Yes, but it is very different view
0:58:40 > 0:58:44in other ways, although perhaps not such a dissimilar place. Thank you
0:58:44 > 0:58:48for coming in. Thank you both for being our guests of the day, on a
0:58:48 > 0:58:52very lively programme.No quiz of the day?I can't believe you brought
0:58:52 > 0:58:55that up! We will do an especially big one for you next time.
0:58:55 > 0:58:56That's all for today.
0:58:56 > 0:58:57Thanks to my guests.
0:58:57 > 0:59:01The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.