0:00:38 > 0:00:42Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:42 > 0:00:47Its employees clean our hospitals and maintain our railways.
0:00:47 > 0:00:50Construction and outsourcing firm Carillion goes bust -
0:00:50 > 0:00:53where does that leave the people whose wages they pay and the public
0:00:53 > 0:00:55services they provide?
0:00:55 > 0:00:58Ukip leader Henry Bolton ditches his girlfriend as he tries
0:00:58 > 0:01:01to cling on to the leadership of his party.
0:01:01 > 0:01:06Should her racist messages cost him his job?
0:01:06 > 0:01:08Jeremy Corbyn's grip on the Labour Party tightens
0:01:08 > 0:01:10as allies win key positions on the party's governing body.
0:01:10 > 0:01:16What does it mean for the direction of the Labour party?
0:01:16 > 0:01:23And could anything really be more important for Europe than Brexit?
0:01:23 > 0:01:28Not everything is about you, Great Britain. Europe isn't out to get
0:01:28 > 0:01:30you, we have other things to think about on the continent, not just
0:01:30 > 0:01:33Brexit.
0:01:33 > 0:01:38All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole
0:01:38 > 0:01:39of the programme today are the Conservative MP
0:01:39 > 0:01:42and Brexiteer Ann-Marie Trevelyan, and Labour's Emma Reynolds
0:01:42 > 0:01:48who was a firm Remainer.
0:01:48 > 0:01:50First this morning, the construction giant Carillion has announced
0:01:50 > 0:01:56it is going into liquidation.
0:01:56 > 0:01:58It comes after talks between the firm, its lenders,
0:01:58 > 0:02:01and the Government failed to reach a deal to save the company.
0:02:01 > 0:02:05But what next for the almost 20,000 employees the firm has in the UK,
0:02:05 > 0:02:08and for all the services they're currently providing?
0:02:08 > 0:02:12Carillion is a construction and facilities contractor,
0:02:12 > 0:02:15which the Government pays around £1.7 billion a year for a wide
0:02:15 > 0:02:20range of provisions.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23For example, the firm is the second biggest supplier of maintenance
0:02:23 > 0:02:25services for Network Rail.
0:02:25 > 0:02:27It maintains 50,000 homes for the Ministry of Defence.
0:02:27 > 0:02:31And it manages part of the contract for HS2.
0:02:31 > 0:02:37The firm's debt pile of roughly £900 million -
0:02:37 > 0:02:42and that excludes hundreds of millions of a pension deficit -
0:02:42 > 0:02:43stems partly from three major public-private projects,
0:02:43 > 0:02:45building the Midland Metropolitan Hospital in Birmingham,
0:02:45 > 0:02:48the Royal Liverpool University Hospital, and the new
0:02:48 > 0:02:54Aberdeen bypass.
0:02:54 > 0:02:58The Government's facing questions about why it contracted Carillion
0:02:58 > 0:03:01for more services after the firm posted the first of several
0:03:01 > 0:03:03profit warnings last July.
0:03:03 > 0:03:05Even after the share price plummeted, the Government awarded
0:03:05 > 0:03:07Carillion part of a contract with two other companies
0:03:07 > 0:03:13to work on HS2 - a contract worth £1.4 billion.
0:03:13 > 0:03:16The Government also granted the firm further contracts to work
0:03:16 > 0:03:18on military sites and railway lines, collectively worth hundreds
0:03:18 > 0:03:23of millions of pounds.
0:03:23 > 0:03:25Despite crunch talks to save Carillion from going under,
0:03:25 > 0:03:28it announced today it didn't have the financial backing
0:03:28 > 0:03:31to continue operations.
0:03:31 > 0:03:35Cabinet Office minister David Lidington said the firm's
0:03:35 > 0:03:38staff would continue to be paid, and that services would continue
0:03:38 > 0:03:44to be provided either "in-house" or by alternative contractors.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47Well, earlier, David Lidington was asked why the Government had
0:03:47 > 0:03:49continued to award contracts to Carillion even after the company
0:03:49 > 0:03:51issued profit warnings.
0:03:51 > 0:03:56Each department operated on the basis of the publicly known
0:03:56 > 0:04:04legal rules that govern the award of Government contracts,
0:04:08 > 0:04:10and, in the way that I've just described,
0:04:10 > 0:04:12if you look at those central Government contracts that
0:04:12 > 0:04:15were agreed which involve Carillion post-July 2017 you will see
0:04:15 > 0:04:19that they had joint-venture partners who are there to take up the slack,
0:04:19 > 0:04:20and so that risk was covered.
0:04:20 > 0:04:22To get the latest on this, we're joined by our business
0:04:22 > 0:04:27correspondent Jamie Robertson.
0:04:27 > 0:04:34Jamie, you heard David Lidington there, he said Karelian's debts came
0:04:34 > 0:04:38primarily from the non-public side, is that correct?It seems to be at
0:04:38 > 0:04:45the moment. A lot of the debt was involved in a lot of the public
0:04:45 > 0:04:48projects but where the problem comes, beside the company having
0:04:48 > 0:04:53debt, but a lot of the problems come from the fact that they were not
0:04:53 > 0:04:56getting payments, payments were being delayed on many foreign
0:04:56 > 0:05:00contracts, particularly in the Middle East, it appears. So they
0:05:00 > 0:05:04have a cash probe problem weather cannot finance their debt, then the
0:05:04 > 0:05:08bank, they asked for an extra £300 million, the banks have basically
0:05:08 > 0:05:12said no, and that is how we find ourselves in the situation we are in
0:05:12 > 0:05:16at the moment. If the Government had refused
0:05:16 > 0:05:19further contract back in July when the profit warnings were posted,
0:05:19 > 0:05:23what would have been the outcome?I think the crisis would have happened
0:05:23 > 0:05:27even earlier. One of the problems you are faced with when you have a
0:05:27 > 0:05:31profit warning, how do you get out of it? One of the best ways is to
0:05:31 > 0:05:34have new profitable contracts to give you better cash flow and some
0:05:34 > 0:05:37way of financing your debt, if you don't get those contract you will
0:05:37 > 0:05:43not be able to, it will become more difficult to finance that debt. So
0:05:43 > 0:05:46in a way the fact that they were getting new contracts with the way
0:05:46 > 0:05:51of helping them but it simply wasn't enough, the black hole, as it were,
0:05:51 > 0:05:56in terms of financing the debt, was too big.The Number Ten spokesperson
0:05:56 > 0:06:00this morning has said that contingency measures were put in
0:06:00 > 0:06:03place once that first profit warning was released and I take your point
0:06:03 > 0:06:08saying that what they needed were new contracts to keep afloat but
0:06:08 > 0:06:11clearly the contingency measures that the Government said were in
0:06:11 > 0:06:15place failed?Yes, it is not so much the contingency measures in terms of
0:06:15 > 0:06:20keeping the project going, we will have do see now how effective they
0:06:20 > 0:06:26are at picking up the slack, picking up the collapsed contracts, how the
0:06:26 > 0:06:29Government can pick them up and how the private sector can pick them up.
0:06:29 > 0:06:35The real danger, I think we will find, is the hiatus that occurs
0:06:35 > 0:06:40between these contracts ceasing, as it were, and being taken over either
0:06:40 > 0:06:45by the public sector or private sector, and what happens to those
0:06:45 > 0:06:48subcontractors who were contracted to do much of this work? Will they
0:06:48 > 0:06:54get paid on time, will they get paid at all? I think that is where the
0:06:54 > 0:06:57problems, we simply don't know how big a problem it is giving to be,
0:06:57 > 0:07:01but we are talking about here supply chain with something like £3 billion
0:07:01 > 0:07:07a year in terms of contracts both here in the UK and abroad, and for
0:07:07 > 0:07:12of these companies who are providing services to Carillion, being paid on
0:07:12 > 0:07:15time becomes extremely important and if you have a hiatus, a delay which
0:07:15 > 0:07:18goes on for several months, you will see some of these companies getting
0:07:18 > 0:07:21into real problems.Thank you very much.
0:07:21 > 0:07:23We're joined to discuss this by the leader of
0:07:23 > 0:07:24the Liberal Democrats, Sir Vince Cable.
0:07:24 > 0:07:30On that one point, before I go to Ann-Marie Trevelyan, £3 billion in
0:07:30 > 0:07:34the supply chain, what will happen to those companies while they wait
0:07:34 > 0:07:38to see what happens?Well, the optimistic outcome is the Government
0:07:38 > 0:07:42takes some of these contracts in-house, Reid tenders, the
0:07:42 > 0:07:46workforce is kept together, I think a lot of the highly skilled people
0:07:46 > 0:07:50will be saved but there is potentially massive disruption. I
0:07:50 > 0:07:52think one of the things we ought to be looking at, the Government ought
0:07:52 > 0:07:57to be looking at, we have the British bank, it is there to provide
0:07:57 > 0:08:02flows of credit for small business and trying to put in place supply
0:08:02 > 0:08:05chain finances, something the Government could and should be
0:08:05 > 0:08:08doing.Is there going to be a significant cost to the taxpayer
0:08:08 > 0:08:13well this process is going on?There is going to be a significant cost to
0:08:13 > 0:08:16the taxpayer not least because the taxpayer has taken on the pension
0:08:16 > 0:08:21protection fund liabilities which are massive, 600, 800 billion, the
0:08:21 > 0:08:26pensioners themselves will take a cut from that, the Government is on
0:08:26 > 0:08:31the hook. What will anger people so much is the taxpayer is going to
0:08:31 > 0:08:34finish up paying a substantial bill for this collapse while at the same
0:08:34 > 0:08:40time I think the hedge funds have pocketed 300 million effectively
0:08:40 > 0:08:42gambling against Government decisions. The chief executive of
0:08:42 > 0:08:47the company whose misjudgements caused all of this pocketed 6
0:08:47 > 0:08:51million in bonuses, still being paid a full salary. That is the kind of
0:08:51 > 0:08:56injustice that does get people very angry about the way that these
0:08:56 > 0:08:59public sector contracts are run. Anne-Marie Trevelyan, are you angry
0:08:59 > 0:09:02about the fact that the taxpayer will shoulder the burden for what
0:09:02 > 0:09:08has gone wrong?We have the pension protection scheme to ensure that
0:09:08 > 0:09:11when a private company does for Labour we can protect pensions, that
0:09:11 > 0:09:15is really important. The challenge we have got and what concerns me,
0:09:15 > 0:09:20and I have had constituents who run subcontracting firms over the
0:09:20 > 0:09:24weekend, is that we make sure that the cash flow does not mean that
0:09:24 > 0:09:27those working for Carillion directly, those jobs will be secure,
0:09:27 > 0:09:30and we must make sure and the Government is working incredibly
0:09:30 > 0:09:33hard to look at that bigger picture and understand what the official
0:09:33 > 0:09:37receiver will need in terms of practical support to ensure those
0:09:37 > 0:09:41contracts can be rolled out and that jobs are not at risk further down
0:09:41 > 0:09:44the scale.So you will be looking for guarantees from Government on
0:09:44 > 0:09:50that?The Government has
0:10:00 > 0:10:03said this morning they will do everything to support the official
0:10:03 > 0:10:04receiver with the official Government contract in place, so
0:10:04 > 0:10:07there will be disruption, I'm sure, but those projects are still needed
0:10:07 > 0:10:09and those jobs will be supported and financed accordingly and we will be
0:10:09 > 0:10:12paying, as we were paying Carillion before, the official receiver will
0:10:12 > 0:10:14now be the person the Government is dealing with.What do you say to
0:10:14 > 0:10:17those employees whose pensions are going to be cut?That is one of the
0:10:17 > 0:10:19great frustrations when a private sector company does fail, but the
0:10:19 > 0:10:22fact there is the pension protection scheme means 85% of the pension is
0:10:22 > 0:10:24protected, it is one of the great frustration and something the Prime
0:10:24 > 0:10:27Minister has talked about so much, she wants to make sure that business
0:10:27 > 0:10:40works well and shareholders are allowed to stand up to
0:10:40 > 0:10:43directors when they are making poor decisions for their employees and
0:10:43 > 0:10:45shareholders.So should the Government have continued to Brad
0:10:45 > 0:10:47contracts, quite a significant number of contracts, to Carillion
0:10:47 > 0:10:49after its first profit warning in July?As your business correspondent
0:10:49 > 0:10:54said, the challenge for business, it is an enormous business where cash
0:10:54 > 0:10:57flow becomes a problem for some reason and some of the Middle East
0:10:57 > 0:11:00and contracts seem to be the cause of it, continuing to work your way
0:11:00 > 0:11:04through that can often work when you bring in new contracts, providing
0:11:04 > 0:11:07good service, so I think the Government did make sure the
0:11:07 > 0:11:10contingency framework was in place because contracts brought up since
0:11:10 > 0:11:14that point last summer have been in joint venture arrangements at the
0:11:14 > 0:11:18risk is mitigated.That is the Government's justification and we
0:11:18 > 0:11:21heard our business correspondent saying that by providing more
0:11:21 > 0:11:24contracts to Carillion lustre like it did actually keep the company
0:11:24 > 0:11:29going, it would have just collapsed earlier?I don't really buy that,
0:11:29 > 0:11:34you asked whether Ann-Marie was angry, I am angry on behalf of the
0:11:34 > 0:11:36taxpayer and the 20,000 people up and down the country whose jobs are
0:11:36 > 0:11:43at risk, including 400 in Wolverhampton at the HQ and as you
0:11:43 > 0:11:46know I am a Wolverhampton MP. I think there are serious questions
0:11:46 > 0:11:50that need answers about why they were grunting more contracts when,
0:11:50 > 0:11:55in July, there was a profit warning, but also the Government has a right
0:11:55 > 0:11:58to appoint a crown representative to monitor what is going on in
0:11:58 > 0:12:03companies such as these, this is a company that has over 450 Government
0:12:03 > 0:12:10project, it is a huge company and we are now seeing the result,
0:12:10 > 0:12:13unfortunately, not only of incompetence of the company itself
0:12:13 > 0:12:16but incompetence of the Government in the way they have handled these
0:12:16 > 0:12:19contracts.Do you accept some of these employees could have lost
0:12:19 > 0:12:25their jobs earlier if in fact Carillion had collapsed back in July
0:12:25 > 0:12:29after that first and second profit warning?Who is to know exactly what
0:12:29 > 0:12:32could have happened, but why didn't the Government have a better grip of
0:12:32 > 0:12:36what was happening within the company after the profit warning?
0:12:36 > 0:12:40They could have appointed this crown representative that they have every
0:12:40 > 0:12:44right to do, as far as I am aware they did not, so they should have
0:12:44 > 0:12:47known more than they did, or they did no more and they are not telling
0:12:47 > 0:12:57us,
0:12:59 > 0:13:02so we need an investigation into what they did know.Should those
0:13:02 > 0:13:04contingency measures, as they asked Vince Cable, should they have been
0:13:04 > 0:13:06more robust because it was clear that the company was struggling, and
0:13:06 > 0:13:09was it corrected to award the large number of contract after the profit
0:13:09 > 0:13:11warning?The Government has been clear, David Lidington and Chris
0:13:11 > 0:13:13Grayling have set up of the contract were joint venture arrangement after
0:13:13 > 0:13:16the profit warning to the risk was mitigated in that framework and that
0:13:16 > 0:13:18is something that I have no doubt the Government and official receiver
0:13:18 > 0:13:21will move forward is to make sure those contracts can roll out in a
0:13:21 > 0:13:26new format but there will be frustration which is frustrating for
0:13:26 > 0:13:29everyone, particularly for those for whom there is a lack of certainty in
0:13:29 > 0:13:35the week that.Let's look at the broad philosophy of these contracts,
0:13:35 > 0:13:39is it correct now, should the Government continued to award these
0:13:39 > 0:13:44sorts of contracts to companies like Carillion?Well, they can do a
0:13:44 > 0:13:49certain amount in house, and probably should do, I suspect that
0:13:49 > 0:13:53the outsourcing revolution has gone too far and as a result we are
0:13:53 > 0:13:57getting in situations of this kind. But when the Government cannot seem
0:13:57 > 0:14:00to do its tendering properly it is difficult to imagine it can run
0:14:00 > 0:14:04these companies properly so we are going to have to have a relationship
0:14:04 > 0:14:07with the private sector, many very good private companies that did not
0:14:07 > 0:14:11have that kind of extreme leveraged that Carillion had, and the
0:14:11 > 0:14:22Government is going
0:14:34 > 0:14:37to have to work out how to work with them but the basic principles have
0:14:37 > 0:14:40got to be that we cannot have a situation where companies make
0:14:40 > 0:14:42profit in good time and off-load losses when they fail, we cannot
0:14:42 > 0:14:44have companies that are too big to fail, those are the basic
0:14:44 > 0:14:46principles. Tendering should probably operate more on the
0:14:46 > 0:14:49principle of allowing in directly a lot of the smaller subcontractors so
0:14:49 > 0:14:51we are not overdependent on big tier one companies of this kind.Although
0:14:51 > 0:14:53that was the case during the coalition Government as well. You
0:14:53 > 0:14:56think it now should be reduced. Do you agree? Jeremy Corbyn says it is
0:14:56 > 0:14:58unsustainable that there should not be big private companies like
0:14:58 > 0:15:00Carillion awarded these contracts, should they all be brought in house
0:15:00 > 0:15:03and publicly run?I think it is a question as to whether they should
0:15:03 > 0:15:06all be publicly run but we should view quite how many are tendered out
0:15:06 > 0:15:12and we have to look at how this is done. I have reservations about, for
0:15:12 > 0:15:15example, Vince was talking earlier about the level of remuneration that
0:15:15 > 0:15:20was granted to the upper echelons of this company at a time when it was
0:15:20 > 0:15:24in dire straits, and it is the lower paid people down the chain who will
0:15:24 > 0:15:31suffer, and yet the former chief executive who provided over this
0:15:31 > 0:15:34mismanagement was given a 1.5 million pay-out and then there was
0:15:34 > 0:15:39even more on top of that, so there are big questions to answer as to
0:15:39 > 0:15:43what exactly is taxpayers' money going to, is it going into
0:15:43 > 0:15:46remuneration for the chief executives but then we are not
0:15:46 > 0:15:53seeing services provided?Should some of that salary package be
0:15:53 > 0:15:59clawed from Carillion? £660,000 salary paid over 12 months, £28,000
0:15:59 > 0:16:05of benefits, and even more money into his pension?
0:16:05 > 0:16:07The Prime Minister has raised the question of those huge salaries.
0:16:07 > 0:16:13Should he have been paid it though? If the shareholders are agreeing,
0:16:13 > 0:16:17within the private sector framework we have and the laws that exist at
0:16:17 > 0:16:21the moment, that is an acceptable thing for a company to do. I think
0:16:21 > 0:16:24the question of whether it is enough and whether shareholders feel they
0:16:24 > 0:16:29have enough to stand up and disagree with that, if they feel... Someone
0:16:29 > 0:16:34doing a great job for a huge organisation, running a complex set
0:16:34 > 0:16:40of projects, well remunerated, I have no...Can you justify it to
0:16:40 > 0:16:43your efficients that he continues to get that -- constituents that he
0:16:43 > 0:16:48continues to get that money now the firm has gone bust?He won't now it
0:16:48 > 0:16:54has gone bust. The official receiver...He's receiving 12
0:16:54 > 0:16:57months' pay, should he get all that money inIt is a question for the
0:16:57 > 0:17:02receiver to identify.What do you think?Honestly, I don't think
0:17:02 > 0:17:06people should be rewarded for failure. The contact he set up is
0:17:06 > 0:17:12one they have to honour at the time. The question is whether the
0:17:12 > 0:17:15shareholder empowerment is strong enough.Should the bonuses will be
0:17:15 > 0:17:22clawed back?I should think so. In principal it is an absolute outrage
0:17:22 > 0:17:32that that you have rewards for failure.It is taxpayers' money.
0:17:32 > 0:17:35Let's go back to whether whether all private-public contracts should be
0:17:35 > 0:17:40brought back in house. You said some. You disagree with your party's
0:17:40 > 0:17:45leadership that they should come to an end.I don't know whether the
0:17:45 > 0:17:48Government has capacity to provide all of the services that are, you
0:17:48 > 0:17:52know, currently contracted out. But I agree with Jeremy Corbyn. At the
0:17:52 > 0:17:55moment, what we are doing, is we are taking the risk from the public
0:17:55 > 0:17:58sector and we're putting it into the private sector and there are some of
0:17:58 > 0:18:02these companies who are taking on this risk and see what happens in
0:18:02 > 0:18:06the case of Carillion. That is not the case for every company that's
0:18:06 > 0:18:11taken on cob contracts from the Government. Yes yes, I think this
0:18:11 > 0:18:14needs looking at. I do think that the taxpayer should be rightly angry
0:18:14 > 0:18:20about what has happened in this case.
0:18:22 > 0:18:25case.OfIt is how you reward these contracts and who you reward them
0:18:25 > 0:18:30to.Do you think it should be reviewed and many of these contracts
0:18:30 > 0:18:36should be brought back in house?The Government needs to be robust. There
0:18:36 > 0:18:39are these huge complex contracts. The Government has proven itself
0:18:39 > 0:18:42over decades never to be the best organisation to run these things.
0:18:42 > 0:18:47What is your solution?Having the private sector lead on those, you
0:18:47 > 0:18:50know, is a good relationship where it works. The question here of
0:18:50 > 0:18:56whether the risk management within the company and the directorship
0:18:56 > 0:19:00failed to what was needed, it is one we need to think about as Government
0:19:00 > 0:19:03and make sure that the Government's arrangements and the directors are
0:19:03 > 0:19:07held to account early on, so that these sort of risk failures can not
0:19:07 > 0:19:12happen. That is a cash flow question and it is one that we see. In this
0:19:12 > 0:19:16instance it is a company that has collected over a number of years an
0:19:16 > 0:19:20enormous amount of Government contracts.Thank you.
0:19:20 > 0:19:22Now it's time for our daily quiz.
0:19:22 > 0:19:24The question for today is which political dining
0:19:24 > 0:19:25establishment is attempting to win a michelin star?
0:19:25 > 0:19:26Is it...
0:19:26 > 0:19:34A - Granita in Islington, scene of the Blair-Brown pact.
0:19:34 > 0:19:38B- Maidenhead Spice, a curry house in Theresa May's constituency?
0:19:38 > 0:19:43C - The House of Commons restaurant?
0:19:43 > 0:19:46Or D - Archway Kebab, Jeremy Corbyn's favourite falafel joint?
0:19:46 > 0:19:49At the end of the show Emma and Anne-Marie will give us
0:19:49 > 0:19:51the correct answer.
0:19:51 > 0:19:54It is an easy one!
0:19:54 > 0:19:57Now, can you name all the people who have led Ukip
0:19:57 > 0:19:58since the referendum?
0:19:58 > 0:20:05No, it's not just another quiz, because we may be about to see
0:20:05 > 0:20:07its fifth or is it seventh leader since the EU referendum.
0:20:07 > 0:20:10Henry Bolton, the current incumbent, is hanging on for now,
0:20:10 > 0:20:12but calls for the 54-year-old to resign have grown louder
0:20:12 > 0:20:14since racist messages sent by his 25-year-old girlfriend,
0:20:14 > 0:20:18Jo Marney, were published in yesterday's Mail On Sunday.
0:20:18 > 0:20:20Mr Bolton has said that the "romantic side"
0:20:20 > 0:20:24of his relationship with Ms Marney has now ended, and he defended his
0:20:24 > 0:20:29position on the Today programme this morning.
0:20:29 > 0:20:33I have been accused of poor judgment when four days into a relationship I
0:20:33 > 0:20:38didn't know what she was putting out on direct Facebook messages and on
0:20:38 > 0:20:46her twitter.Maybe the poor judgment was taking up with her in the way
0:20:46 > 0:20:52you did as publicly as you did and as quickly as you did.Yes. It
0:20:52 > 0:20:59happened the way that it did. There was no intent to deceive anybody.
0:20:59 > 0:21:04Indeed, the day that we realised that we'd been photographed together
0:21:04 > 0:21:08we immediately made a statement because I had no wish to deceive
0:21:08 > 0:21:12anybody or hide anything.
0:21:12 > 0:21:14And we're joined now from Shropshrie by the former
0:21:14 > 0:21:18deputy chair of Ukip, Suzanne Evans.
0:21:18 > 0:21:24Welcome. Should Henry Bolton go? Unfortunately, I think he should. I
0:21:24 > 0:21:28say that with a very heavy heart because the last thing we need is
0:21:28 > 0:21:33another leadership election. We had great hopes for Henry Bolton. He
0:21:33 > 0:21:37promised us he'd be the safe pair of hands after a very rough journey
0:21:37 > 0:21:41over the last couple of years with so many different leaders.
0:21:41 > 0:21:45Unfortunately, he wasn't, was he? I don't think he has much choice. I
0:21:45 > 0:21:50think it would be better for him if he were to resign. If he doesn't, I
0:21:50 > 0:21:55fear that the special meeting that's been called on Sunday of our
0:21:55 > 0:22:00National Executive Committee, where I gather there'll be a voice of no
0:22:00 > 0:22:04confidence tabled, I suspect that vote will be won.You say he should
0:22:04 > 0:22:09go because he's not been sensible either. What has he actually done
0:22:09 > 0:22:14wrong in your mind?I think he's brought the party into disrepute.
0:22:14 > 0:22:17Certainly people have been kicked out of the party for that in the
0:22:17 > 0:22:23past. I think he's shown, as was questioned on the Today Programme
0:22:23 > 0:22:27this morning, I think he's shown an astonishing lack of judgment. I
0:22:27 > 0:22:30understand when he was involved in the leadership campaign he portrayed
0:22:30 > 0:22:34himself as a family man, a capable man, a man who would do the right
0:22:34 > 0:22:38thing. And I think many of us are questioning, notwithstanding the
0:22:38 > 0:22:41fact that politicians have the right to a private life. I think if you
0:22:41 > 0:22:45put yourself in the public eye, you are held up to higher standards. I
0:22:45 > 0:22:50think he has left his wife, apparently, for a woman who is
0:22:50 > 0:22:55younger than his youngest daughter, who has turned out to hold some very
0:22:55 > 0:23:00reprehensible views. I wonder what he means by saying he's ended the
0:23:00 > 0:23:04romantic side of their relationship. Does this mean he will carry on
0:23:04 > 0:23:08taking her counsel on matters? The mind rather boggles. I think it is
0:23:08 > 0:23:12all rather embarrassing. It has once again brought the party into
0:23:12 > 0:23:18disrepute. It is deeply upsetting. What will it achieve having another
0:23:18 > 0:23:22leadership contest? If he goes as well, that will be four leaders
0:23:22 > 0:23:26since the referendum, not counting the interims. Does it just show that
0:23:26 > 0:23:31you cannot get a sensible person to run the party, to use your words?I
0:23:31 > 0:23:36absolutely dispute that. I am sure we can. I think the problem has
0:23:36 > 0:23:41actually been that Nigel Farage has had too much influence in choosing
0:23:41 > 0:23:47successive leaders of Ukip. He was a great leader. He never really had a
0:23:47 > 0:23:51successor, he's backed several candidates. In fact he's backed all
0:23:51 > 0:23:56the candidates in the last four leadership elections we've had,
0:23:56 > 0:24:00candidates who have failed. That is a shame. His influence has meant the
0:24:00 > 0:24:04wrong have been selected. We had Diane James, who lasted 18 days and
0:24:04 > 0:24:09it got worse. That.Do you think if he didn't have as much influence you
0:24:09 > 0:24:13might be the leader of Ukip now?I think I might have been, yes. I
0:24:13 > 0:24:19think that's right. But you know, Nigel Farage decreed that I should
0:24:19 > 0:24:23never be leader of Ukip.So, you will not stand if there is another
0:24:23 > 0:24:28leadership election?No. Absolutely no point. Absolutely no point. For
0:24:28 > 0:24:34the reasons I have just outlined. I think it cost £5,000 to stand in an
0:24:34 > 0:24:38election leadership for Ukip. I have lost it once. I am not prepared to
0:24:38 > 0:24:42lose it again. I have better ways to spend my money. I think it is a
0:24:42 > 0:24:46disagree for a party of the people, so called party of the people to
0:24:46 > 0:24:50charge so much for somebody to stand in a leadership election.Do you
0:24:50 > 0:24:55remember that Nigel Farage might do another U-turn and stand again?He
0:24:55 > 0:25:00might well. If there were a vacancy. I gather he's ruled it out at the
0:25:00 > 0:25:08moment. He'd have to weigh up his own pros and cons. He's losing his
0:25:08 > 0:25:14job as an MEP shortly. On the down side he'd have to give up the media
0:25:14 > 0:25:19career he's tried to forge for himself.Why are you still in the
0:25:19 > 0:25:23party?Well, you know, Jo, I don't quit just when the going gets tough.
0:25:23 > 0:25:27I still think there is a need for Ukip in British politics. I want to
0:25:27 > 0:25:31make sure we get out of the European Union properly. Not just in name
0:25:31 > 0:25:37only. That we actually do fully take back control and lead properly. I
0:25:37 > 0:25:42think we need a party like Ukip to keep snapping at the heels of the
0:25:42 > 0:25:46Government who don't always seem to grasp the nettle and capitulate to
0:25:46 > 0:25:52the EU for mine and most Ukipers liking. It is important to keep
0:25:52 > 0:25:59fighting that fight.Thank you very much.
0:25:59 > 0:26:02Now, we've had an election result within the last hour -
0:26:02 > 0:26:04three candidates have been elected to sit on Labour's National
0:26:04 > 0:26:06Executive Committee, which is the party's ruling body.
0:26:06 > 0:26:09The three winning candidates were all backed by the pro-Jeremy
0:26:09 > 0:26:12Corbyn group Momentum - and it's thought could change
0:26:12 > 0:26:17the balance of power on the NEC in favour of left of the party...
0:26:17 > 0:26:19There were a total of nine candidates running for three
0:26:19 > 0:26:23new places on the National Executive Committee.
0:26:23 > 0:26:25The three winning candidates were Jon Lansman, the founder
0:26:25 > 0:26:27of Momentum, and two other candidates backed
0:26:27 > 0:26:31by the organisation - Yasmine Dar and Rachel Garnham.
0:26:31 > 0:26:35It's thought that the balance of power on the NEC has now been
0:26:35 > 0:26:37shifted decisvely in favour of Jeremy Corbyn and
0:26:37 > 0:26:39the left of the party.
0:26:39 > 0:26:44Separately, there is also an ongoing review into the internal democracy
0:26:44 > 0:26:45of the Labour Party, which is being carried
0:26:45 > 0:26:48out by Jeremy Corbyn's close ally Katy Clark.
0:26:48 > 0:26:51The first set of proposals from the democracy review will be
0:26:51 > 0:26:56discussed by the NEC next week.
0:26:56 > 0:27:08I am joined Do you think this will shift the party further to the left?
0:27:08 > 0:27:13I don't think it will do anything other than reflect what the party is
0:27:13 > 0:27:18doing. The results are reflective of what the people think already.It
0:27:18 > 0:27:22has taken up a lot of time and money.With such a huge membership
0:27:22 > 0:27:27now. 600,000, it was necessary to have more representation of Labour
0:27:27 > 0:27:33members on the nek. That is something -- on the NEC. That is
0:27:33 > 0:27:37something important to all in the party.Do you accept that?
0:27:37 > 0:27:41Absolutely. The Labour Party has always been a Broadchurch. We have
0:27:41 > 0:27:45more unity of purpose, getting this Government out of office, than we
0:27:45 > 0:27:49have for some time. I had people helping me in Wolverhampton from
0:27:49 > 0:27:52across the spectrum of the Labour Party. We all get on extremely well
0:27:52 > 0:27:56and we all have a single mission and that is to have a Labour Government
0:27:56 > 0:28:00in this country rather than a Tory Government.You are happy it is
0:28:00 > 0:28:04reflecting the membership at large? There was an election. There were
0:28:04 > 0:28:08three new members, as Michael explained because of the extent of
0:28:08 > 0:28:14the membership, we've had more members join than ever before. I
0:28:14 > 0:28:19accept that. These people have won places on the NEC. Three out of 39
0:28:19 > 0:28:23places, by the way. Let's not over-egg the pudding. I know the
0:28:23 > 0:28:27media likes to always shine a light on the Labour Party and its
0:28:27 > 0:28:31elections.So you don't think it will have a significant impact?It
0:28:31 > 0:28:35remains to be seen. We have a unity of purpose that perhaps we didn't a
0:28:35 > 0:28:38year ago. I think that is only a good thing.Is it something to cheer
0:28:38 > 0:28:43about in your mind that there are more people who are very much behind
0:28:43 > 0:28:48Jeremy Corbyn's view and vision for the Labour Party?Well Jeremy Corbyn
0:28:48 > 0:28:51has done better at the election than many thought. We didn't win the
0:28:51 > 0:28:55election. Obviously we lost the election. We ran the Conservatives
0:28:55 > 0:28:59very close. Now they have to rule with the DUP. So, as I have said, I
0:28:59 > 0:29:02think the election brought us together as a party and a political
0:29:02 > 0:29:08movement and I think that can only be a good thing.Jon Lansman, the
0:29:08 > 0:29:12founder of Momentum said there's no reason for any hard-working MP who
0:29:12 > 0:29:15campaigns hard with their constituents and the members of
0:29:15 > 0:29:19their local party to feel nervous about anything. That implies that
0:29:19 > 0:29:26there will be a judgment made about some MPs on mandatory reselection.
0:29:26 > 0:29:32Jon has made it clear he's not in favour of that across the board. We
0:29:32 > 0:29:37should take about how we hold MPs accountable. As Jon made clear, if
0:29:37 > 0:29:40MPs engage with their constituents and have the support of the people
0:29:40 > 0:29:44they represent, which is vital in a functioning democracy then they have
0:29:44 > 0:29:49nothing to worry about.If they don't reflect the views of Labour
0:29:49 > 0:29:52Party members perhaps from Momentum, do they still have a right to stay
0:29:52 > 0:29:57as an MP?As far as I am concerned, it is up to constituents in each
0:29:57 > 0:30:01constituency to decide who represents them and how.Should
0:30:01 > 0:30:05there be a debate about mandatory reselection? Although Jon Lansman
0:30:05 > 0:30:10may not want a broad based reselection, is calling for it in
0:30:10 > 0:30:21parts of London. He thinks parts should be re-run?
0:30:21 > 0:30:24I disagree with anyone who is calling for mandatory reselection of
0:30:24 > 0:30:28MPs. We have always been a broad church and the bitterness that we
0:30:28 > 0:30:32have seen over the last couple of years and some of the rows we have
0:30:32 > 0:30:37had, we need to put that behind us and we need for the parliamentary
0:30:37 > 0:30:40party, the membership and leadership to work together, because actually
0:30:40 > 0:30:44this Government is on the ropes and that is what we should be focused
0:30:44 > 0:30:49on, taking the fight to the Tories, rather than obsessing about internal
0:30:49 > 0:30:52procedures and introducing things which will only create a division
0:30:52 > 0:30:58and bitterness, so I don't think there should be mandatory
0:30:58 > 0:31:03reselection.I can't say it either! We did have progress from another
0:31:03 > 0:31:06wing of the party who feel that this is an attempt to take over the
0:31:06 > 0:31:11Labour Party...I hope that it isn't, and I hope that the review
0:31:11 > 0:31:14that is going on will not conclude that we need mandatory reselection
0:31:14 > 0:31:18because I think that will be very, very bad for the sense of unity of
0:31:18 > 0:31:23purpose I have talked about that has been created during the election
0:31:23 > 0:31:26campaign and since.Jon Lansman also wants the threshold for the next
0:31:26 > 0:31:32leadership contest nominations to be lowered, do you agree?I think that
0:31:32 > 0:31:36the current threshold is about right. I do think that the leader of
0:31:36 > 0:31:40the Labour Party needs to have the confidence of his or her MPs, that
0:31:40 > 0:31:43is important.Do you think that or do you agree with Jon Lansman that
0:31:43 > 0:31:48it should be lowered below the 15% to 10%, 5% or in his case scrapped
0:31:48 > 0:31:52altogether?As far as I'm concerned, Labour MPs are there to reflect
0:31:52 > 0:31:57their constituents, I would like to see a threshold in place which means
0:31:57 > 0:32:04no wing of the party is kept out... They haven't been, have they?It was
0:32:04 > 0:32:08close with Jeremy Corbyn the first time round. If it is left as it is,
0:32:08 > 0:32:18in the future MPs on either side of the party are left out, to me that
0:32:18 > 0:32:24is important, they are there to represent their constituents. I
0:32:24 > 0:32:28think the democracy is in three stages, we have only just had the
0:32:28 > 0:32:31first, which looked a women's membership, BME and Young Labour,
0:32:31 > 0:32:35areas where we can agree more work needs to be done, and I don't know
0:32:35 > 0:32:39what is to be senior, as far as I am concerned the 600,000 members Labour
0:32:39 > 0:32:42have need to have more of a say in the way the party functions whether
0:32:42 > 0:32:46that be policy or selection of MPs, whether it be community engagement
0:32:46 > 0:32:54around the country, the more of that the better, and I think that is what
0:32:54 > 0:32:57the review will see, but whatever happens in the review it will not be
0:32:57 > 0:33:00signed off by Jeremy Corbyn, it will go to the Labour Conference next
0:33:00 > 0:33:02year and the membership at the Conference will decide what happens
0:33:02 > 0:33:06next.The Tories have a lot to learn about swelling the ranks of their
0:33:06 > 0:33:09membership, bearing in mind, although we cannot get a clear
0:33:09 > 0:33:15figure, the Tories are probably fallen well below 100,000 members?
0:33:15 > 0:33:19With Brandon Lewis committed party chairman, his focus is to grow that
0:33:19 > 0:33:22base but also something we have seen with Labour is that you have brought
0:33:22 > 0:33:26in people who have been activists into the membership, is something,
0:33:26 > 0:33:30certainly I have hundreds of people who are activists with me in
0:33:30 > 0:33:34Northumberland but probably only 100 of them are party members, it is not
0:33:34 > 0:33:37perhaps something if you support Conservative causes you feel the
0:33:37 > 0:33:41need to be part of the party to support it in different ways, but
0:33:41 > 0:33:44what is interesting in the north-east, personally I'm not a
0:33:44 > 0:33:49great fan of the hard left of Labour and I would support a balance in the
0:33:49 > 0:33:52Labour Party, I have many, many hundreds of thousands of people
0:33:52 > 0:33:55voting for me in the north-east, Labour voters who are really not
0:33:55 > 0:33:59supporting the Jeremy Corbyn project, and that tells me something
0:33:59 > 0:34:04about how you need to carry on if you are serious about taking us on
0:34:04 > 0:34:08but the reality is that voters are frightened by that hard left
0:34:08 > 0:34:11position that Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell are driving forwards.What
0:34:11 > 0:34:16do you say to that?Well, we took Canterbury from the Tories, nobody
0:34:16 > 0:34:20saw that coming, we took many seats that were not predicted so I think
0:34:20 > 0:34:22the Tories need to reflect on that. Thank you very much.
0:34:22 > 0:34:25Now, the Government has a target to reduce net migration -
0:34:25 > 0:34:27that's the difference between the number of people leaving
0:34:27 > 0:34:30and the number arriving in the UK - to less than 100,000 a year.
0:34:30 > 0:34:32The figure currently stands at 230,000, and yesterday
0:34:32 > 0:34:34on the Sunday Politics the new Immigration Minister
0:34:34 > 0:34:36Caroline Nokes was asked whether the Government
0:34:36 > 0:34:38was still committed to that target.
0:34:38 > 0:34:46Why have this target of reducing net migration to under 100,000?
0:34:48 > 0:34:51There are lots of Cabinet ministers who'd like to get rid of it.
0:34:51 > 0:34:54You could have left it out of the 2017 manifesto and got rid
0:34:54 > 0:34:59of quite a headache.
0:34:59 > 0:35:02You know, we had a referendum in 2016 which sent us
0:35:02 > 0:35:04a very clear message, that people want to see
0:35:04 > 0:35:05that target remain.
0:35:05 > 0:35:07They want to see us reducing immigration to sustainable
0:35:07 > 0:35:09levels and we're doing exactly that.
0:35:09 > 0:35:10You're right.
0:35:10 > 0:35:11It was there in the manifesto.
0:35:11 > 0:35:13So that is the direction of travel.
0:35:13 > 0:35:19We're joined in the studio now by Sunder Katwala whose think
0:35:19 > 0:35:21tank British Future has been involved in conducting a series
0:35:21 > 0:35:24of focus groups around the country on public attitudes to immigration.
0:35:24 > 0:35:28Welcome to the Daily Politics, what did you find?We have been to 60
0:35:28 > 0:35:31places around the country, the largest exercise in public
0:35:31 > 0:35:35engagement, we went to Wolverhampton last year, going to Berwick in the
0:35:35 > 0:35:37spring, we want to get all the different kinds of places and while
0:35:37 > 0:35:41we know some people are very pro-or anti-immigration, we hear that
0:35:41 > 0:35:47online and in the media, most people are balanced, most people think of
0:35:47 > 0:35:50the pressures on public services, think there are games for the
0:35:50 > 0:35:53economy, we have big decisions to make now, how do you strike the
0:35:53 > 0:35:57balance between what the economy need and what the public are
0:35:57 > 0:35:59confident about how what it is managed to have a system in the
0:35:59 > 0:36:03future?When you spoke to people across the country in the focus
0:36:03 > 0:36:06groups you were doing, was the impression that they want
0:36:06 > 0:36:10immigration to come down significantly?The biggest issues
0:36:10 > 0:36:17for people are a lack of confidence in
0:36:26 > 0:36:28control and management about immigration and integration and a
0:36:28 > 0:36:31lack of public voice in how you have your say about that and who listened
0:36:31 > 0:36:33and how it is heard. Some people would strongly reduce immigration,
0:36:33 > 0:36:36most people would say, I might reduce some things but not other
0:36:36 > 0:36:38things. Almost no people would reduce the number of students, very
0:36:38 > 0:36:40few would reduce the number of people doing highly skilled jobs, it
0:36:40 > 0:36:42is moreover division politically about controlling low skilled
0:36:42 > 0:36:46immigration and not reducing other work. People think they want to
0:36:46 > 0:36:48protect refugees but they are not sure how well it works in practice,
0:36:48 > 0:36:53what the system is like, what integration is like, it is not one
0:36:53 > 0:36:56size fits all.Do you think the characterisation of millions of
0:36:56 > 0:37:01people voting Leave that their sole reason behind it was to bring down
0:37:01 > 0:37:05immigration, that it was wrong? Immigration was definitely important
0:37:05 > 0:37:09for a lot of people, of issues like sovereignty were important, but
0:37:09 > 0:37:14those people for whom immigration was an issue, only a minority are
0:37:14 > 0:37:17saying shut the Borders, still less send them all back, everyone agrees
0:37:17 > 0:37:21that the people here should stay. Then there is a debate about what
0:37:21 > 0:37:24control looks like. The current target has always been missed, it
0:37:24 > 0:37:29has not worked well, but can we involve the public in what kind of
0:37:29 > 0:37:32target are clear and accessible, give them the kind of controls they
0:37:32 > 0:37:37want, and can we deal with the local impacts, which are different
0:37:37 > 0:37:41everywhere about the pace of immigration and whether it has been
0:37:41 > 0:37:46handled well?Ann-Marie Trevelyan, listening to that, is there any
0:37:46 > 0:37:50point in having the target that has been repeatedly missed going forward
0:37:50 > 0:37:53again?The point of having a target is having something to focus on and
0:37:53 > 0:37:58Caroline Nokes made that clear... She did, but do you agree, bearing
0:37:58 > 0:38:02in mind you missed it time and time again to bring it down to tens of
0:38:02 > 0:38:08thousands...Vicky, as a Brexiteer who spent a very lot of time last
0:38:08 > 0:38:12year campaigning for Brexit, absolutely the message was a level
0:38:12 > 0:38:15of control about immigration so we can talk to people directly about
0:38:15 > 0:38:20how it is exactly right, that lived experience in our communities, the
0:38:20 > 0:38:24need for highly skilled specialists who are global, that is not in
0:38:24 > 0:38:29question, it is understanding how we can support, and key is to meet the
0:38:29 > 0:38:33skills gap, there is a skills gap in the UK, we must not be afraid to say
0:38:33 > 0:38:38so, we must work hard investing in that, this year the year of the
0:38:38 > 0:38:48engineer, fantastic
0:38:49 > 0:38:51initiative...How do you explain, if it is about bringing back control,
0:38:51 > 0:38:53the Government missing the target from non-EU immigration, they have
0:38:53 > 0:38:56not even been able to bring that down to the levels that would have
0:38:56 > 0:38:58fitted the target?That fits with the skills gap question, but really
0:38:58 > 0:39:01by having this focus and making sure that if a key part...You have had
0:39:01 > 0:39:06this focus for years.But whilst we were still in the EU it was less
0:39:06 > 0:39:10focused on Bennett needed to be, that maybe one of the reason why so
0:39:10 > 0:39:14many people chose to vote Leave, having the question of who is here
0:39:14 > 0:39:19is important to the British people. Do you accept that the public, as
0:39:19 > 0:39:22Sunder says, do not want to replace something for nothing, they want a
0:39:22 > 0:39:26target in terms of bringing back control, if you write?I think
0:39:26 > 0:39:39Sunder is right that people have gotten much more nuanced view
0:39:40 > 0:39:43than is often explained, that there may be two groups of people, one
0:39:43 > 0:39:45very pro-immigration and one very anti-immigration but the bigger
0:39:45 > 0:39:47group of people are somewhere in the middle. I think the Government is
0:39:47 > 0:39:50wrong to focus on the number, and I tell you why, because the more that
0:39:50 > 0:39:53they missed the target, and people do care about it, they will create
0:39:53 > 0:39:56even more mistrust about whether they can manage immigration when
0:39:56 > 0:39:58they could not even hit the target for Don EU migrants, as you pointed
0:39:58 > 0:40:02out, so I think this should be a much more nuanced conversation with
0:40:02 > 0:40:06the British public than a number, and the problem with a number is
0:40:06 > 0:40:10that it creates mistrust if you don't get that.So he would not have
0:40:10 > 0:40:16a number? You would not have a target?I would not have a number
0:40:16 > 0:40:20and a target and I would say to people that we have to manage the
0:40:20 > 0:40:22local impacts, made sure there are families comedian whose children
0:40:22 > 0:40:26don't have English as their first language that we need to give
0:40:26 > 0:40:31schools more money to cope with that, I would say that, actually,
0:40:31 > 0:40:36and I think Sunder has done some work on this, that when it comes to
0:40:36 > 0:40:40low skilled, even with the approach and attitude to low skilled workers,
0:40:40 > 0:40:43there are nuances.Is that white Leave won the recommend, because
0:40:43 > 0:40:46people like you are promising to stay in the single market where
0:40:46 > 0:40:50there would be no control over immigration and you would not
0:40:50 > 0:40:54control it at all?I do not remember saying any of that.You said you
0:40:54 > 0:40:58don't want a target.That is different saying I think the
0:40:58 > 0:41:03Government should manage the system. Would you have a level for net
0:41:03 > 0:41:06migration?I would not have a target that I would miss year on year for
0:41:06 > 0:41:10seven years in a row that people do not have confidence in, no, because
0:41:10 > 0:41:14it is a record of failure, setting yourself up for failure and for even
0:41:14 > 0:41:20more distrust within the public.Do you think that will lose more trust
0:41:20 > 0:41:25from people, not having a target?I think you have to involve the public
0:41:25 > 0:41:29now in the approach we set. Arguing about this target now, we have to
0:41:29 > 0:41:33design the system, that is what matters. People felt this was very
0:41:33 > 0:41:36important that they got to have their say, they felt it was overdue,
0:41:36 > 0:41:41they felt it was cathartic. When he said the referendum is the end and
0:41:41 > 0:41:45the Government will sort it out, one of the important things is let's do
0:41:45 > 0:41:48this every year, let's have an annual immigration report like the
0:41:48 > 0:41:54budget, that is a structure, conversation around the country,
0:41:54 > 0:41:57refer to NHS trusts and businesses who want immigration, we have heard
0:41:57 > 0:42:01about people worried about the change, here is how we are striking
0:42:01 > 0:42:05the balance, so the referendum must not be the end of the public
0:42:05 > 0:42:08involvement, we must involve the public in the new targets.Would you
0:42:08 > 0:42:12involve the public in setting the target?It is an interesting
0:42:12 > 0:42:17question of having an annual report because that is what people choose
0:42:17 > 0:42:20to make sure they have a way to be heard and clearly if Government can
0:42:20 > 0:42:23find a system that works and there is a balance it would be
0:42:23 > 0:42:29reflected...If they said, we would like 150,000, for example, like Andy
0:42:29 > 0:42:34Street, in fact, who was your conservative would you take that on
0:42:34 > 0:42:40board?We are going to take control of all of our immigration policy and
0:42:40 > 0:42:45how we manage this...So how haven't you managed non-EU migration when
0:42:45 > 0:42:49you do have control?It is a question of getting the framework in
0:42:49 > 0:42:53place, I like the idea of that annual stamping of where Government
0:42:53 > 0:42:58is that going forward is because it will be ours to determine without
0:42:58 > 0:43:01external influences and to set that out very clearly so that the public
0:43:01 > 0:43:05can understand how Government is thinking and how business and public
0:43:05 > 0:43:08sector is feeding into the system. Sunder Katwala, thank you for coming
0:43:08 > 0:43:14in.
0:43:14 > 0:43:16Now, perfidious, petulant perhaps - but has Brexit also revealed
0:43:16 > 0:43:18the British to be pompous?
0:43:18 > 0:43:19Surely not...
0:43:19 > 0:43:27Here's German journalist John Junclaussen's Soapbox.
0:43:40 > 0:43:41Rule Britannia.
0:43:41 > 0:43:44Hear the British lion roar.
0:43:44 > 0:43:47And of course when you're not as dignified as the Queen
0:43:47 > 0:43:50or as funky as Meghan and Harry, rest assured the rest
0:43:50 > 0:43:52of the world is listening.
0:43:52 > 0:43:55But when it comes to politics, and more specifically to Brexit,
0:43:55 > 0:43:58I think it's quite clear it's the British lion who has
0:43:58 > 0:44:02to do some listening.
0:44:02 > 0:44:05I spend half of my life in this country, but Brexit has brought out
0:44:05 > 0:44:08something in the Brits that I hadn't encountered before, a kind
0:44:08 > 0:44:11of national egotism and a vanity.
0:44:11 > 0:44:14Everywhere there's talk about the EU wanting to punish Britain.
0:44:14 > 0:44:15What's that all about?
0:44:15 > 0:44:16You leave the club.
0:44:16 > 0:44:18That's fine.
0:44:18 > 0:44:21But if the rest of the member-states then want to decide among
0:44:21 > 0:44:24themselves what to do next, you think they're out to get you.
0:44:24 > 0:44:30Really?
0:44:30 > 0:44:37You talk about 'no deal' until the cows come home.
0:44:37 > 0:44:41But if the EU only mentions 'no deal' the Brexit Minister gets all
0:44:41 > 0:44:41flustered and writes angry letters.
0:44:41 > 0:44:43This is not just about you, Britain.
0:44:43 > 0:44:45This is about the future of Europe, too.
0:44:45 > 0:44:53In the last 18 months, endless line-ups of pompous
0:44:54 > 0:44:56Brexiteers have warned German car manufacturers that 'no deal'
0:44:56 > 0:44:58would mean armies of newly unemployed workers in Stuttgart
0:44:58 > 0:44:59and Wolfsburg, as UK sales plummet.
0:44:59 > 0:45:01What a load of nonsense.
0:45:01 > 0:45:03You know what, these markets are far more complicated than such black
0:45:03 > 0:45:05and white scenarios imply.
0:45:05 > 0:45:06Not everything is about you, Great Britain.
0:45:06 > 0:45:08Europe isn't out to get you.
0:45:08 > 0:45:10They have other things to think about on the continent,
0:45:10 > 0:45:11not just Brexit.
0:45:11 > 0:45:19So you should just get over yourself and stop being so self-obsessed.
0:45:19 > 0:45:23And John Jungclaussen joins us now in the studio.
0:45:23 > 0:45:31Protecting himself on my left. Are you a pompous Brexiteer. I am half
0:45:31 > 0:45:37French. I am a great lover of all things European. For me it is about
0:45:37 > 0:45:39trading relationships and a different relationship with our
0:45:39 > 0:45:43European neighbours. But I will continue to love them all, as I
0:45:43 > 0:45:48always have done. Has it been self-obsessed the argument going
0:45:48 > 0:45:51forward and totally miss characterises the rest of Europe is
0:45:51 > 0:45:57feeling?I don't know. When I am in European countries I talk very
0:45:57 > 0:46:01honestly about the view I would like my country no long tore be in the
0:46:01 > 0:46:07EU. That does not negate the other relationships.Aren't you being rude
0:46:07 > 0:46:14- pompous, you are saying we are self-obsessed...In a charming way.
0:46:14 > 0:46:21Last summer, when after the Paris bombings, the EU introduced new
0:46:21 > 0:46:25security measures. Every single newspaper and media article,
0:46:25 > 0:46:30including the BBC were convinced that the Europeans were doing this
0:46:30 > 0:46:33that thousands of Europeans were happily standing in queues at
0:46:33 > 0:46:39airports to punish the Brits. That is a self-obsession.I wouldn't say
0:46:39 > 0:46:43anyone would... No-one ever wrote to me complaining about that.How did
0:46:43 > 0:46:48you feel? It was an issue, deliberately punishing Britain
0:46:48 > 0:46:52because of Brexit. Do you think the EU is, through these negotiations,
0:46:52 > 0:46:57punishing Britain?That is a very strange perspective. It is the...It
0:46:57 > 0:47:01is not just the media. Politicians lined up, too.I wouldn't have done.
0:47:01 > 0:47:07I think the reality is everyone understands the security threat...
0:47:07 > 0:47:10What's the problem, the agreement made it difficult for European
0:47:10 > 0:47:13countries to manage their security. Certain politicians made the point
0:47:13 > 0:47:18that you are making now.II think it is very sad. As someone who
0:47:18 > 0:47:27travels a lot, I have noticed the fluidity between borders. I I think
0:47:27 > 0:47:32it is sad if that use of those changing, particularly when it is
0:47:32 > 0:47:35security environments, have caused those aggressive commentary, when
0:47:35 > 0:47:39that is not what it should be about. There are people who would say, why
0:47:39 > 0:47:45shouldn't... You have an apology here on air. Some may say why
0:47:45 > 0:47:49shouldn't the EU punish Britain. If Britain wants to leave, these are
0:47:49 > 0:47:53negotiations. Shouldn't they be making it difficult?Think I the
0:47:53 > 0:47:56EU's starting point is if you no longer want to be a member of the
0:47:56 > 0:48:01club, you will no longer enjoy all of its benefits. I think that is a
0:48:01 > 0:48:05rational starting point. If you are a member of a golf club or a
0:48:05 > 0:48:08political party you have certain benefits derived from that
0:48:08 > 0:48:13membership. I certainly think they want to discourage other
0:48:13 > 0:48:17member-states from going down that particular track. But I also agree
0:48:17 > 0:48:21with John that there are different things in Europe. For example, in
0:48:21 > 0:48:24Italy, where there is a general election coming up, there is big
0:48:24 > 0:48:29talk about the refugee crisis and how it has affected Italy. In
0:48:29 > 0:48:32Germany, the discussion has obviously been, how do they form a
0:48:32 > 0:48:36Government, which has been the number one priority.So they have
0:48:36 > 0:48:39other things to think about.Brexit is a priority here because there is
0:48:39 > 0:48:42a lot of uncertainty for business and there are risks to our economy
0:48:42 > 0:48:47if we get the wrong deal and if we cast ourselves adrift from our
0:48:47 > 0:48:51closest trading partners.Why is Labour pursuing a let's have our
0:48:51 > 0:48:56cake and eat it policy, so that is the policy they are trying to pursue
0:48:56 > 0:49:00by not being clear about membership of the single market or the Customs
0:49:00 > 0:49:05Union?My view is that the economy has to come first and we are more
0:49:05 > 0:49:09deeply integrated with the rest of the European economy than any other
0:49:09 > 0:49:12economy around the world. For example, Airbus make planes. The
0:49:12 > 0:49:17wings are made here in the UK. They are taken over to France, where they
0:49:17 > 0:49:21are put together with parts from Germany. We have integrated supply
0:49:21 > 0:49:27chains. If there is disruption to those supply chains that could cause
0:49:27 > 0:49:32us great difficulties for jobs, investment and the wider economy.
0:49:32 > 0:49:35This is not scaremongering. These are issues that companies have been
0:49:35 > 0:49:39raising, with the Government and others for some time now. It is
0:49:39 > 0:49:43something we need to get a handle on.What did you think when Jeremy
0:49:43 > 0:49:50Corbyn said, leaving the EU means you leave the single market?Well
0:49:50 > 0:49:53not necessarily, factually I don't agree with me.Because you would
0:49:53 > 0:50:03cite Norway, for example?Yes.He's rejected Nicola Sturgeon's plea,
0:50:03 > 0:50:08which is saying this is the way to go forward for a least damaging
0:50:08 > 0:50:13Brexit. Should he be in talks with the SNP?I think the SNP are
0:50:13 > 0:50:18ploughing their own Pharaoh to be honest, frankly.It is one you agree
0:50:18 > 0:50:26with.Yes, but one of the things that the SNP want to do is to have a
0:50:26 > 0:50:28different agreement for Scotland than for the rest of the UK.
0:50:28 > 0:50:31Scotland, thankfully, is still part of the UK. Therefore, they will be
0:50:31 > 0:50:37part of the UK deal, because that is the case.Should he have rejected
0:50:37 > 0:50:41those meetings out of hand, Jeremy Corbyn?That is up to our party
0:50:41 > 0:50:44leader and I respect his decision if he has other things that are
0:50:44 > 0:50:48pressing. As I say, I do think the SNP have their own priorities. And
0:50:48 > 0:50:52they are different to ours, with regards to trying to create a
0:50:52 > 0:50:57situation whereby they have their own arrangements, which I think is
0:50:57 > 0:50:59untenable, given they are part of the UK.They are clear about what
0:50:59 > 0:51:04they want?Yes. She has been clear. She's always clear about what she
0:51:04 > 0:51:08wants.Has Jeremy Corbyn been totally clear about Labour's policy?
0:51:08 > 0:51:12I would like to see a different approach, but I respect the approach
0:51:12 > 0:51:16he's taking. I think there is some discussion, I mean, in the Labour
0:51:16 > 0:51:19Party right now, as to exactly what our approach should be. I don't
0:51:19 > 0:51:22think we should take thing things off the table. That is my position.
0:51:22 > 0:51:26What do you think about the idea of a second referendum n the way that
0:51:26 > 0:51:32Nigel Farage entertained?No thank you.Not ever?We had a referendum.
0:51:32 > 0:51:38It was in our manifesto. The British people gave a resounding vote. 14.4
0:51:38 > 0:51:42million people voted to leave. The Government has taken that message
0:51:42 > 0:51:46very clearly and is driving forwards, leaving the EU, which is
0:51:46 > 0:51:50what we're doing. Members, you know, of Parliament are speaking, I think
0:51:50 > 0:51:55one of the interesting things about having a much more balanced House of
0:51:55 > 0:52:00Commons than perhaps was expected, following the June election, is that
0:52:00 > 0:52:03voices are genuinely being heard from across the House and the deal
0:52:03 > 0:52:07will reflect the British people in a way that we actually should be
0:52:07 > 0:52:11really proud of. I am very comfortable. We do not need to do
0:52:11 > 0:52:15anything. We are driving forwards what was asked for last year.Do you
0:52:15 > 0:52:19think Brexit will actually happen? Yes. I do.In term oss the second
0:52:19 > 0:52:24referendum.
0:52:24 > 0:52:27referendum. Emily Thornberry said 90% would have to swing behind a
0:52:27 > 0:52:31second referendum. Is that too high for you?I agree with her that I
0:52:31 > 0:52:36don't think there is a public appetite for a second referendum. It
0:52:36 > 0:52:40was quite a scaring experience. It was quite a divisive thing. And I
0:52:40 > 0:52:43certainly don't want to see more of Nigel Farage on telly.
0:52:43 > 0:52:50Right. That is fairly clear. What do you make of the sort of spectacle,
0:52:50 > 0:52:59if you like, of different British politicians all lining up
0:52:59 > 0:53:03politicians all lining up Barnier, and some way to influence him in
0:53:03 > 0:53:08future negotiations?That is part of the British, the aim was to divide
0:53:08 > 0:53:15and conquer, I guess. There are 27 member-states. 27 Parliaments have
0:53:15 > 0:53:23to ratify whatever agreement they reach in the end.
0:53:23 > 0:53:32reach in the end. And of course Barnie...Are you telling me off for
0:53:32 > 0:53:36my pronunciation?He's not got perhaps the strongest set of
0:53:36 > 0:53:42characters facing him
0:53:48 > 0:53:53across the table from the set out wider is sensible.There were impact
0:53:53 > 0:54:01assessments and then minister.Yes. Let me break this up. Would you like
0:54:01 > 0:54:08to be a fly on the fall when your colleagues go to see Michel Barnier?
0:54:08 > 0:54:18I am sure he will be thrilled to hear their perspective.
0:54:18 > 0:54:21Now, it's already shaping up to be a busy week in Westminster -
0:54:21 > 0:54:22and it's only Monday.
0:54:22 > 0:54:24Here's our guide to what's happening in The Week Ahead.
0:54:24 > 0:54:27This afternoon, Cabinet Office Minister David Lidington will make
0:54:27 > 0:54:29a statement on the liquidation of construction company Carillion.
0:54:29 > 0:54:33Tomorrow, the EU Withdrawal Bill returns to the Commons
0:54:33 > 0:54:36for its third reading, where a number of amendments
0:54:36 > 0:54:40on the so-called Henry VIII powers will be debated.
0:54:40 > 0:54:43On Wednesday, Theresa May will face questions from Opposition leader
0:54:43 > 0:54:47Jeremy Corbyn and other MPs in Prime Minister's Questions.
0:54:47 > 0:54:49On Thursday, Theresa May will host the 35th UK-French Summit
0:54:49 > 0:54:53when President Macron arrives in the UK.
0:54:53 > 0:54:57It's his first visit to British shores since being elected.
0:54:57 > 0:55:01And, also on Thursday, the latest NHS England figures
0:55:01 > 0:55:04are released showing A&E waiting times and bed availability.
0:55:04 > 0:55:07We're joined now from College Green by Emily Ashton from Buzzfeed
0:55:07 > 0:55:11and Chris Hope from the Telegraph.
0:55:11 > 0:55:15Sheltering there under that large umbrella. Thank you for waiting.
0:55:15 > 0:55:19It looks likely that the Justice Secretary will order a judicial
0:55:19 > 0:55:25review into the Parole Board's decision to release John Warboys.
0:55:25 > 0:55:30How usual is it for him to challenge his own department in this way?You
0:55:30 > 0:55:36don't normally hear these things so loudly. He's throwing himself into
0:55:36 > 0:55:41it. There's been a lot of political pressure over this. It is such a
0:55:41 > 0:55:45political case. The main problem is he was prosecuted over a number of
0:55:45 > 0:55:49cases that was far below the actual number of cases that are thought to
0:55:49 > 0:55:54exist. So, we don't know what the Parole Board decision, what was
0:55:54 > 0:55:59behind it and perhaps a judicial review is the way forward.As Emily
0:55:59 > 0:56:03said we don't know the evidence that was presented to the Parole Board.
0:56:03 > 0:56:08One of the big problems is that they didn't inform, it seems many of the
0:56:08 > 0:56:13victims. Is that also going to be a key factor, Chris?Yes, it will be.
0:56:13 > 0:56:19In terms of politics, it will be. It will not be a key factor whether he
0:56:19 > 0:56:24is retried or goes back to prison. We are blind to whatever the reasons
0:56:24 > 0:56:28were the Parole Board came to. We have no idea what they are. The
0:56:28 > 0:56:35politics here is there's been increased disclosure for the reasons
0:56:35 > 0:56:38letting these criminals out of jail and the victims are not told they
0:56:38 > 0:56:41are being let out.Let's move on to the EU Withdrawal Bill. What is
0:56:41 > 0:56:46happening this week?It seems to rumble on forever. I feel half my
0:56:46 > 0:56:50life is taken up with it. Tomorrow we have the report stage. Then the
0:56:50 > 0:56:53end of the report stage and the third reading. After that it will
0:56:53 > 0:57:00pass to the Lord's at the end of the month. I don't think we will see big
0:57:00 > 0:57:06rebellions like we saw Christmas. You will see pressure from Labour
0:57:06 > 0:57:10and pressure from Scottish MPs about devolution. The third reading is
0:57:10 > 0:57:14likely to pass without the rebellions we saw before Christmas.
0:57:14 > 0:57:21We have more Tory MPs going over to see Michel Barnier?Quite what they
0:57:21 > 0:57:26say when they meet, don't forget he met with Nigel Farage last week. It
0:57:26 > 0:57:31looks like he's reaching out to parties. What David Davis thinks
0:57:31 > 0:57:42about this, I don't know. We will hear later what is said.Emily, on
0:57:42 > 0:57:45the NEC, the Labour elections, what do you make of the win by Jon
0:57:45 > 0:57:50Lansman and two of his colleagues? The NEC is not a household name in
0:57:50 > 0:57:55many households. It does matter to how Labour is run and managed and
0:57:55 > 0:57:59decisions going forward with selection of candidates. So we
0:57:59 > 0:58:02expected with three new places on this board, that they would go to
0:58:02 > 0:58:08the left of the party. Corbyn supporters. Jon Lansman, the founder
0:58:08 > 0:58:13of Momentum is thrilled to have got a place. And you will see that
0:58:13 > 0:58:16perhaps taking shape...It all depends on how he uses that power.
0:58:16 > 0:58:20So the clear left were in control of the NEC for the first time in a
0:58:20 > 0:58:24while.Thank you very much. Go and shelter from the rain. There is time
0:58:24 > 0:58:30to find out the answer from the quiz:
0:58:30 > 0:58:33There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
0:58:33 > 0:58:36The question was for today is which political dining
0:58:36 > 0:58:38establishment is attempting to win a michelin star?
0:58:38 > 0:58:40Was it...
0:58:40 > 0:58:44Parliament. It is good enough. Thank you to all of our guests.
0:58:44 > 0:58:56Thank you for being our guests of the day. I will be back morning with
0:58:56 > 0:59:02all the political stories. Join me then. Goodbye.