0:00:39 > 0:00:42Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:42 > 0:00:45The collapse of the firm Carillion has sent a shockwave
0:00:45 > 0:00:46through Westminster.
0:00:46 > 0:00:49The Government is under pressure over the pay and jobs of workers
0:00:49 > 0:00:52and the cost to the taxpayer, while Jeremy Corbyn claims
0:00:52 > 0:00:56it's a watershed moment in British politics.
0:00:56 > 0:00:58Boris Johnson doubles down on the infamous claim the UK pays
0:00:58 > 0:01:03£350 million a week to the EU.
0:01:03 > 0:01:06He says it's actually a gross underestimate and we're
0:01:06 > 0:01:08handing over even more.
0:01:08 > 0:01:14Germany hasn't had one since September.
0:01:14 > 0:01:17The Belgians managed without one for more than 18 months.
0:01:17 > 0:01:19As Northern Ireland marks a year without an elected government,
0:01:19 > 0:01:27we'll be asking what people are missing out on.
0:01:28 > 0:01:30If you feel you haven't heard enough from Jacob
0:01:30 > 0:01:31Rees-Mogg, then good news.
0:01:31 > 0:01:34There's now a new podcast devoted entirely to his musings.
0:01:34 > 0:01:38We'll discuss this latest stage of Moggmania.
0:01:38 > 0:01:41All that in the next hour.
0:01:41 > 0:01:43And with us for the whole of the programme today
0:01:43 > 0:01:46is the Conservative MP, former minister and ardent
0:01:46 > 0:01:48pro-European, Anna Soubry.
0:01:48 > 0:01:53No word yet on whether she's planning to launch her own podcast.
0:01:53 > 0:01:58You've given me a very good idea. Something to think about.
0:01:58 > 0:02:00Let's start today by talking about Boris Johnson.
0:02:00 > 0:02:02The Foreign Secretary has been speaking to the Guardian about one
0:02:02 > 0:02:04of the most high-profile, and most contentious,
0:02:04 > 0:02:07claims made by the Leave campaign during the 2016 EU referendum.
0:02:07 > 0:02:12Mr Johnson tells the paper that the original statement
0:02:12 > 0:02:16on the Vote Leave battle bus, that Britain sends £350 million
0:02:16 > 0:02:20a week to the EU was wrong - the real figure is actually higher.
0:02:20 > 0:02:24He says the UK's weekly gross contribution would rise
0:02:24 > 0:02:26to £438 million by the end of the transition period
0:02:26 > 0:02:32after Brexit, which is expected to be in 2020.
0:02:32 > 0:02:37He acknowledges that the figure doesn't include the money
0:02:37 > 0:02:40we get back from the EU but says, "We grossly underestimated
0:02:40 > 0:02:44the sum over which we would be able to take back control."
0:02:44 > 0:02:51Now, I am sure this, returning to the figure on the side of the bus...
0:02:51 > 0:02:59I was so excited you said he had admitted finally it was inaccurate.
0:02:59 > 0:03:04Do you accept that the figure, whatever it is, there have been
0:03:04 > 0:03:08arguments about net and gross figures, it is still a substantial
0:03:08 > 0:03:14amount of money that Britain would have control over?No, people have
0:03:14 > 0:03:17been conned. Surprised and disappointed in Boris he is
0:03:17 > 0:03:24perpetuating these nonsenses. I know the figure of 350 million a week was
0:03:24 > 0:03:29inaccurate because of the point you quite rightly make of gross and net.
0:03:29 > 0:03:34It does not take into account the amount we get back. It is more
0:03:34 > 0:03:39important than that. It is not extra money going to the NHS, people were
0:03:39 > 0:03:43conned about that and I'm very disappointed that given where we
0:03:43 > 0:03:47are, our Foreign Secretary, who holds one of the great offices of
0:03:47 > 0:03:50state, he is not squaring up and being honest with the British people
0:03:50 > 0:03:56and they deserve honesty.Let us look at the figures. You say he is
0:03:56 > 0:04:01not being honest and there have been arguments about it, as we know, but
0:04:01 > 0:04:05if you look at the Office for Budget Responsibility, it had a set of
0:04:05 > 0:04:10figures and it said by 2021, the figures in pounds per week that the
0:04:10 > 0:04:15Government would have control over would be £269 million. That may not
0:04:15 > 0:04:19go to the NHS but do you accept the British Government will have control
0:04:19 > 0:04:25over a sizeable amount of money?I don't know, I have not looked at
0:04:25 > 0:04:29these things. What you see is what you get from me. What I do know is
0:04:29 > 0:04:32that this is not going to be additional funds going to the NHS
0:04:32 > 0:04:37and that was an important part of the trick that was played upon the
0:04:37 > 0:04:40British people, that they believed that they would somehow get this
0:04:40 > 0:04:45money for the NHS and that is not going to happen.Why is it not going
0:04:45 > 0:04:51to happen? After transition, let us say, the Government says, actually,
0:04:51 > 0:04:55we will put a lot more extra money and we will take some of it out of
0:04:55 > 0:05:00the money...That is a different matter. If the Government decides to
0:05:00 > 0:05:04put even more, over and above the additional billions of pounds we
0:05:04 > 0:05:08have put in, health spending is at record levels in our country.If
0:05:08 > 0:05:12they use some of the money we would have control over...If I can just
0:05:12 > 0:05:17finished, it is really important, one of the things people are
0:05:17 > 0:05:22understanding, the reality of Brexit is, if we do not get a great deal,
0:05:22 > 0:05:25and I greatly fear we will not get the sort of deal we are being told
0:05:25 > 0:05:30we will get, in that event, our economy is going to suffer and we
0:05:30 > 0:05:34know that we only get great public services when we have a great
0:05:34 > 0:05:38economy, one of the strengths of the Conservative government is that we
0:05:38 > 0:05:42improve the economy, meaning we have more to spend on public services.
0:05:42 > 0:05:47Brexit
0:05:47 > 0:05:49Brexit will hit us hard. It is really important we do not give
0:05:49 > 0:05:51people false hopes and phoney promises, as Cabinet leave did to
0:05:51 > 0:05:59win the referendum.That was in the campaign. -- as Leave it. Do you
0:05:59 > 0:06:02accept there will be this pot of money the Government would have
0:06:02 > 0:06:08control over and it would have the option, it may choose not to do so,
0:06:08 > 0:06:10of those contributions coming back under government control and putting
0:06:10 > 0:06:16it back into the NHS?It is not as straightforward as that. Remember,
0:06:16 > 0:06:20already Brexit has cost us billions of pounds because the Government has
0:06:20 > 0:06:26had to put money aside to spend it to effectively deliver Brexit. The
0:06:26 > 0:06:31reality of all of this, I believe, is dawning on people and Boris is
0:06:31 > 0:06:36being irresponsible to continue to con people in this way. He should be
0:06:36 > 0:06:43honest about the challenges Brexit poses to our country.Do you think
0:06:43 > 0:06:48it is likely, that he will stop talking about these things?Sadly, I
0:06:48 > 0:06:53feel that will not happen. I wish he would. He is our Foreign Secretary.
0:06:53 > 0:06:58This is grown-up drop stuff.He has to man up to the position he holds.
0:06:58 > 0:07:02We will come back to Brexit in a few minutes, surprise surprise.
0:07:02 > 0:07:05Let's turn now to the story which is dominating the news today,
0:07:05 > 0:07:07that's the collapse of Britain's second largest construction
0:07:07 > 0:07:08firm Carillion.
0:07:08 > 0:07:11The company employs 20,000 people in the UK, and its work stretched
0:07:11 > 0:07:14from the HS2 rail project and military contracts
0:07:14 > 0:07:19to maintaining hospitals, schools, and prisons.
0:07:19 > 0:07:21There are plenty of questions being asked about the collapse,
0:07:21 > 0:07:25from the hefty pay packets given to the company's bosses,
0:07:25 > 0:07:28to what support the Government is giving to the firm's employees
0:07:28 > 0:07:32and contractors, not to mention the eventual cost to the taxpayer.
0:07:32 > 0:07:37Our correspondent, Chris Mason, has been following it all closely.
0:07:37 > 0:07:42The Government is no doubt starting to count the cost in more ways than
0:07:42 > 0:07:46one of Carillion going under. It said there would be no taxpayer
0:07:46 > 0:07:51bailout, but what is it committed to paying in terms of people's jobs and
0:07:51 > 0:07:55wages?A huge challenge. The Government has said in the short
0:07:55 > 0:07:59term it's focus is on ensuring the services that Carillion is meant to
0:07:59 > 0:08:04deliver can be delivered, whether that be the provision of school
0:08:04 > 0:08:09meals or cleaning hospitals. As you say, there is the vast consequences
0:08:09 > 0:08:14in the medium and long term. What about the giant pension deficit?
0:08:14 > 0:08:19What about all of the smaller firms who were subcontractors of
0:08:19 > 0:08:27Carillion, around 30,000 are effectively customers of Carillion,
0:08:27 > 0:08:33huge question marks about how they will be paid for work they have
0:08:33 > 0:08:38done. The Government has set up the Cobra committee which met last
0:08:38 > 0:08:44night, whole wave of ministers into the Cabinet Office last night, all
0:08:44 > 0:08:47over Whitehall, painting a picture of the extent to which the tentacles
0:08:47 > 0:08:51of Carillion run into all aspects of the public sector. Cabinet has been
0:08:51 > 0:08:54meeting this morning and there is a briefing for Westminster journalists
0:08:54 > 0:08:59happening right now on the Cabinet discussions. Carillion is no doubt a
0:08:59 > 0:09:03big topic. The bigger question that has been seized upon by Jeremy
0:09:03 > 0:09:08Corbyn in Labour, the question has not been a staple of mainstream
0:09:08 > 0:09:12politics for quite awhile, to what extent should private sector firms
0:09:12 > 0:09:16have a big involvement in the delivery of public sector work? The
0:09:16 > 0:09:19Tony Blair and Gordon Brown government and Labour were
0:09:19 > 0:09:22comfortable with the likes of Carillion and others being involved
0:09:22 > 0:09:26in the delivery of public services. The coalition and the Conservatives
0:09:26 > 0:09:30have been keen on that as well. Jeremy Corbyn is very keen to say
0:09:30 > 0:09:33they should be a shift away from what he sees as that outsource first
0:09:33 > 0:09:39dogma. That will be the coming political battle, given the gap
0:09:39 > 0:09:42there is between Labour and the Conservatives on the instinct on how
0:09:42 > 0:09:47it is delivered.The other side which will anger the public is the
0:09:47 > 0:09:52issue of salaries and bonuses that have been paid and to some extent
0:09:52 > 0:09:59are still continuing to be paid to the senior staff, executives, at
0:09:59 > 0:10:02Carillion. The Department of Business has put out the following
0:10:02 > 0:10:05release asking the investigation into directors to be fast tracked.
0:10:05 > 0:10:09Do you think that will be enough to assuage the anger of people looking
0:10:09 > 0:10:14at what has been called in some papers fat cat bonuses?A keen
0:10:14 > 0:10:20awareness in government about how toxic it is. You have the 30,000
0:10:20 > 0:10:24firms, small and medium-sized businesses, the kind of people and
0:10:24 > 0:10:27entrepreneurs every political party but particularly the Conservatives
0:10:27 > 0:10:32are keen to appeal to worried about getting paid. On the other hand,
0:10:32 > 0:10:36talk of the vast amounts of money being paid out that senior
0:10:36 > 0:10:41executives. There is a real awareness yesterday, it will be
0:10:41 > 0:10:44reflected again today, within government, there should not be a
0:10:44 > 0:10:48sense of rewards for failure, they should not be a sense of socialising
0:10:48 > 0:10:53losses while privatising huge gains and profits. There will be an acute
0:10:53 > 0:10:57awareness about how that is handled. The Government has said it is in the
0:10:57 > 0:11:01hands of the official receiver, but you can expect the rhetoric from the
0:11:01 > 0:11:06very top on this to continue to be pretty sharp.Thank you.
0:11:06 > 0:11:08words on the subject of Carillion.
0:11:08 > 0:11:13Here he is in a message posted online last night.
0:11:13 > 0:11:18In the wake of the collapse of the contractor Carillion,
0:11:18 > 0:11:20it's time to put an end to the rip-off
0:11:20 > 0:11:21privatisation policies that
0:11:21 > 0:11:23have done serious damage to our public services,
0:11:23 > 0:11:25and fleeced the public of billions of pounds.
0:11:25 > 0:11:29This is a watershed moment.
0:11:29 > 0:11:33That was the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, in a message online.
0:11:33 > 0:11:35So, is this a watershed moment, as he claims,
0:11:35 > 0:11:37and do the public agree?
0:11:37 > 0:11:40Ellie Price has been out with the entirely unscientific
0:11:40 > 0:11:46Daily Politics moodbox to find out.
0:11:46 > 0:11:49It has become a fact of life, private companies are involved in
0:11:49 > 0:11:53everything from our schools to our prisons, railways, hospitals. Some
0:11:53 > 0:11:58say when it comes to efficiency, business knows best. Others say it
0:11:58 > 0:12:03is an experiment that has run its course. Is public ownership back in
0:12:03 > 0:12:08fashion? That is what we are asking today. Who do you want to see run
0:12:08 > 0:12:14the book services, the private or public sector?-- the public
0:12:14 > 0:12:17services. It depends on which public services you are talking about and
0:12:17 > 0:12:22how well they will be funded if it is the public sector and how the
0:12:22 > 0:12:27deal will be broken in the private sector.We want money to be spent
0:12:27 > 0:12:31well and for the taxpayer to get good value, go in that pocket.The
0:12:31 > 0:12:37private sector, it does not really work and the profit motive is
0:12:37 > 0:12:46overwhelming.I think it is a massive question, what is the role
0:12:46 > 0:12:51of the public sector? How much can be delegated to individual people to
0:12:51 > 0:13:01make their own economic decisions in life?Thank you. Is it more
0:13:01 > 0:13:05efficient if you are private company?It is, but efficiency comes
0:13:05 > 0:13:08at a cost, that is the problem. Prisons should revert back to
0:13:08 > 0:13:21public. Trains, probably public. The private companies seem to be greedy.
0:13:26 > 0:13:40Oh, it is the rainbow! A combination is optimal. But public.
0:13:40 > 0:13:45is optimal. But public.Oh, it is running away!I am in an anarchist.
0:13:45 > 0:13:50How do you have a way away if you do not have a private or public sector?
0:13:50 > 0:13:55Everyone will join together as people and we will create our own
0:13:55 > 0:13:59little unions that will manage it. There are lessons to take from the
0:13:59 > 0:14:02private sector in terms of efficiencies and that kind of thing
0:14:02 > 0:14:06but on the whole, you need that kind of thing being looked after by
0:14:06 > 0:14:11someone who is not trying to make a profit out of it.It should be the
0:14:11 > 0:14:14public sector but probably at the moment the private sector is looking
0:14:14 > 0:14:19after it better.The day is drawn to the close and so too is the mood
0:14:19 > 0:14:22box. A number set a healthy combination is a good idea but
0:14:22 > 0:14:27overall the winner here is pretty clear. The public sector should look
0:14:27 > 0:14:31after the public services.
0:14:31 > 0:14:32A fairly decisive result in the decidedly
0:14:32 > 0:14:33non-scientific moodbox there.
0:14:33 > 0:14:35To discuss Carillion and the public-private debate more
0:14:35 > 0:14:38generally we're joined by Mick Cash, General Secretary of the RMT union,
0:14:38 > 0:14:41and my guest of the day, Anna Soubry, is a former Business
0:14:41 > 0:14:43Minister.
0:14:43 > 0:14:48Before I come to you Mick Cash, just on some of the fundamentals Anna
0:14:48 > 0:14:55Soubry in terms of what is going to happen to the staff make up part of
0:14:55 > 0:14:58Carillion's workforce, 62% of the work is in the private sector and
0:14:58 > 0:15:03that could be thousands of thousands of employees on private contract,
0:15:03 > 0:15:07should the Government also guarantee their salaries?My first port of
0:15:07 > 0:15:12call on this is the workforce, and for a lot of those people they will
0:15:12 > 0:15:15be very worried are about whether they are going to get paid this week
0:15:15 > 0:15:19or this month.Only to tomorrow they have been told.Having been involved
0:15:19 > 0:15:23in the closure remember of a steelworks up in red car, there are
0:15:23 > 0:15:27ways that Government can get involved in things, to make sure
0:15:27 > 0:15:34that months are made available so workers are paid. These, there are
0:15:34 > 0:15:38discreet methods often, we made sure people were paid in the face of
0:15:38 > 0:15:41those men not being, mainly men not being paid.You think as well as
0:15:41 > 0:15:47guaranteeing the wages of the public sector worker, those with public
0:15:47 > 0:15:52sector worker,s, the Government should extend that?No, I am not
0:15:52 > 0:15:55getting into that detail, what I am saying is there will be ways that
0:15:55 > 0:15:59the Government can make sure that they do everything they can, to
0:15:59 > 0:16:05ensure that those men and women, are paid for the work they have done,
0:16:05 > 0:16:10and they should use whatever levers they have got do that. Trust me
0:16:10 > 0:16:18there are ways that it can be done. Why should employees employed by
0:16:18 > 0:16:23private sector companies be bailed out of or paid by the Government?
0:16:23 > 0:16:27Depends what you mean by private sector contracts. Carillion do a lot
0:16:27 > 0:16:31of work on the railway, are they private or public? It would be
0:16:31 > 0:16:36interesting to see what you mean by that, they have blurred the line
0:16:36 > 0:16:39completely, since they have outsourced the previous Governments
0:16:39 > 0:16:42into the private and public arena, I would ask that first question, what
0:16:42 > 0:16:47do you mean by that? Ultimately, a lot of the work actually is
0:16:47 > 0:16:51guarantee by the taxpayer. It is publicly funded. We should be
0:16:51 > 0:16:54looking after those workers because if we don't the economy is going to
0:16:54 > 0:16:59suffer. Equally...How long should they be looked after?We are in that
0:16:59 > 0:17:04situation we we have done it before. Banks got bailed out. We have seen
0:17:04 > 0:17:08bail outs of southern and East Coast Trains by the Government, they are
0:17:08 > 0:17:12prepared to give them money, and in fact you will find a lot of the
0:17:12 > 0:17:16workers they have contracts they are working to, the issue is the company
0:17:16 > 0:17:19is no trading but there are contracts and there is work.There
0:17:19 > 0:17:23are contracts, they are not public sector contract in the that sense,
0:17:23 > 0:17:30but if they are provided services on the railways, do you still pay...
0:17:30 > 0:17:34You will continue public sector clear things like the delivery of
0:17:34 > 0:17:39school meals, the cleaning of hospital, things like that, for
0:17:39 > 0:17:44example, in something, I have some knowledge of, the MoD, the delivery
0:17:44 > 0:17:47of the service accommodation contracts, these contracts can be
0:17:47 > 0:17:50delivered upon, because somebody else can be found to do that work,
0:17:50 > 0:17:55because that work can't and won't stop.Does that reassure you?To the
0:17:55 > 0:17:58point you rightly make, I think we are in agreement about this, about
0:17:58 > 0:18:05when do other sorts of contracts cross over, into a new way that was
0:18:05 > 0:18:10introduced by the last Government. They have done wok for Network Rail
0:18:10 > 0:18:16over Christmas, they work for a private sector operators, they are
0:18:16 > 0:18:20plant operator, are they going to get paid? We don't know. One of the
0:18:20 > 0:18:25aspects of this and Anna is certain about this, I am not, I have spoken
0:18:25 > 0:18:29to the chief executive of Network Rail, to to the special manager
0:18:29 > 0:18:32appointed by the administrators to find out who is public, private and
0:18:32 > 0:18:36we don't know. The lack of repairedness by the government is
0:18:36 > 0:18:42shocking.Let us talk about that. Do you think the Government
0:18:42 > 0:18:44fundamentally dropped the ball in its dealing with this firm over the
0:18:44 > 0:18:48last six to nine months?I don't know, what I do know because I used
0:18:48 > 0:18:55to be a Business Minister, you are kept alert, always. We were all
0:18:55 > 0:18:58alert publicly because they had a profits warning back in junk July.
0:18:58 > 0:19:05July.So it was clear this was a company in deep trouble.Should they
0:19:05 > 0:19:08have had more Government contracts awarded?That is the very difficult
0:19:08 > 0:19:11question, I am not able to answer it because I don't know enough about
0:19:11 > 0:19:16it. But it would seem that this is a very difficult one, as Government,
0:19:16 > 0:19:22do you help somebody, or do you, are you cognisant of the fact they could
0:19:22 > 0:19:27be in deep trouble, in which event it could be argued it is not a good
0:19:27 > 0:19:33thing to do. I what I am confident has happened is the Secretary of
0:19:33 > 0:19:36State for Transport will have received advice on that, if he
0:19:36 > 0:19:43didn't I would be surprised.Do you share... You seem to be relaxed this
0:19:43 > 0:19:50what happens, firms succeed and fail. Is that the case. Is that
0:19:50 > 0:19:55water shed moment? Is this different in the way Jeremy Corbyn has
0:19:55 > 0:20:00characterised it, than a major company failing, and all of the
0:20:00 > 0:20:06problems that brings.It shows that jous sourcing has failed. We need to
0:20:06 > 0:20:11bring more back in to public hand, if you are in the private sector,
0:20:11 > 0:20:15you get wads of money, and then the company goes bust it is the
0:20:15 > 0:20:19creditor, a lot of them workers at the sharp end who pay the price.You
0:20:19 > 0:20:24miss the point.Have we reached the end of the road with outsourcing? Is
0:20:24 > 0:20:28it time for a review, David Lidington seemed to imply there
0:20:28 > 0:20:32should be a review.This is my take on thing, one of the big problems we
0:20:32 > 0:20:38have, is that when we are putting out these big contracts, they
0:20:38 > 0:20:42invariably go to very big companies and the medium and small businesses
0:20:42 > 0:20:46are not included in the way they should be. So big companies like
0:20:46 > 0:20:51Carillion which had an incredible spread of work, which I find rather
0:20:51 > 0:20:55odd in any event, they get these contracts because Government has a
0:20:55 > 0:20:58responsibility to get the cheapest price, to get value for the
0:20:58 > 0:21:03taxpayer. Then what happens is they can't deliver it -- deliver it.
0:21:03 > 0:21:09Whose fault is that?Let me explain. I think we have a problem in the
0:21:09 > 0:21:12procurement and tendering at national and local level. It is too
0:21:12 > 0:21:16much for the big company, you tend to get what you pay for, I have some
0:21:16 > 0:21:20experience from MoD. And my concern was, because this may help you, it
0:21:20 > 0:21:24will help you as well Mick, my concern, we have to be honest...Why
0:21:24 > 0:21:29not take them back in house, if the taxpayer is having to bail out...
0:21:29 > 0:21:32What would happen is a very big company would say we can deliver
0:21:32 > 0:21:36this contract for this amount of money. People would say we have to
0:21:36 > 0:21:39go for the lowest bid, without drilling down, remembering you get
0:21:39 > 0:21:44what you pay for and then they sub contract and sub contract so you
0:21:44 > 0:21:47ended up almost in a position where to deliver that contract
0:21:47 > 0:21:52successfully was almost impossible. I understand.Unless you didn't pay
0:21:52 > 0:21:55people decent money and you didn't...Making the point for
0:21:55 > 0:22:05bringing it into the public sector. It is for profit margin, they want
0:22:05 > 0:22:09to make money out of of this. They will use taxpayer money, when things
0:22:09 > 0:22:14fail the taxpayer picks up the tab. I am old enough to remember when all
0:22:14 > 0:22:18of these things were in the public sector, it didn't deliver value for
0:22:18 > 0:22:25money. The Labour Party row introduced this huge outsourcing and
0:22:25 > 0:22:28rightly so, the watershed moment this shows the drift in the Labour
0:22:28 > 0:22:33Party. Back to a mashist way of doing things about state control.
0:22:33 > 0:22:38Let the market properly control... Let him respond.I am old enough to
0:22:38 > 0:22:41remember when it was in the public sector and I used to be employed by
0:22:41 > 0:22:45Carillion Rail when they were doing the maintenance contract for Network
0:22:45 > 0:22:51Rail who brought it in house and saved almost 400 million by bringing
0:22:51 > 0:22:56maintenance in house back in 2004. We are in that situation where we
0:22:56 > 0:22:59doe that the private sector, cost money because they have the profit
0:22:59 > 0:23:03motive, they have to deal with the shareholders, the public sector
0:23:03 > 0:23:07saves money for and every bit of money that gets spent or is earned
0:23:07 > 0:23:14goes back into the service.We are running out of time.I don't, I
0:23:14 > 0:23:18want, if it is right to do it inhousely do it inhouse.Is it right
0:23:18 > 0:23:25in this case to take it in house? The private sector is out and it is
0:23:25 > 0:23:29all ant state control.Should the private sector be involved in
0:23:29 > 0:23:34delivering public services in the way they have here, because it seems
0:23:34 > 0:23:37that privatisation means profits are privatised and losses are
0:23:37 > 0:23:41nationalised.It is about delivering the best value for the taxpayer, the
0:23:41 > 0:23:46point I was making which I thought...You are not. How are you?
0:23:46 > 0:23:50Talk one at a time.There is a real role for the private sector to play,
0:23:50 > 0:23:56but it has to be done in a better way...Moo would the private sector
0:23:56 > 0:24:02want to do public sector work? To make profit.That is what pays your
0:24:02 > 0:24:07workers' wages. That is what keeps the economy going so we get the
0:24:07 > 0:24:11great public service, that says more about the Labour Party and the state
0:24:11 > 0:24:17it is in. Back to Marxism.So it is Labour's fault what has happened to
0:24:17 > 0:24:23Carillion. That is what has caused it?One question, is it your view
0:24:23 > 0:24:27that everything private is bad and public is good?You are in that
0:24:27 > 0:24:31situation where the profit motive drives, takes Monday out of the
0:24:31 > 0:24:34public sector.Do you think the chief executives should have his
0:24:34 > 0:24:40bonus clawed back. £660,000 a year. That is the ex-chief executive. He
0:24:40 > 0:24:45has a conscience.Should it be clawed back.That is up to him. He
0:24:45 > 0:24:56should do the right thing, he should know. It is absolutely, because...
0:24:56 > 0:25:00Do you think he should be deprived of that massive amount of moneyYou
0:25:00 > 0:25:05have already paid him. I am very pleased to see the Government is
0:25:05 > 0:25:10excel rating those very strict rule about directorers, it is important
0:25:10 > 0:25:13stuff, if you are found to have done something wrong the consequences are
0:25:13 > 0:25:17huge for you as a director and rightly so.Thank you for coming in.
0:25:17 > 0:25:18Thank you for coming in.
0:25:18 > 0:25:21MPs are back debating the EU withdrawal bill today -
0:25:21 > 0:25:24that's the bill which aims to ensure European law will no longer apply
0:25:24 > 0:25:32in the UK after Brexit.
0:25:33 > 0:25:36But of course what happens in Parliament is only one part
0:25:36 > 0:25:38of the Brexit process, which is set to dominate
0:25:38 > 0:25:39politics in 2018.
0:25:39 > 0:25:41The Brexit negotiations are ongoing, although at
0:25:41 > 0:25:43the moment the discussions are between officials.
0:25:43 > 0:25:45A date hasn't yet been set for the next face-to-face meeting
0:25:45 > 0:25:48between the Brexit Secretary David Davis and the EU Chief
0:25:48 > 0:25:49Negotiator Michel Barnier.
0:25:49 > 0:25:52Top of the agenda will be agreeing the terms of a transition
0:25:52 > 0:25:54agreement, to cover a period of around two years.
0:25:54 > 0:25:56Theresa May is also expected to host further cabinet discussions
0:25:56 > 0:25:59to hammer out what the UK's final relationship with the EU
0:25:59 > 0:26:00should look like.
0:26:00 > 0:26:04And Theresa May is hoping to be in a position to set out her vision
0:26:04 > 0:26:07of that relationship in her third major Brexit speech in February.
0:26:07 > 0:26:09A meeting of the European Council - that's the heads of government
0:26:09 > 0:26:12from across the EU - will get under way in March.
0:26:12 > 0:26:15Could this be the moment when the terms of the transition
0:26:15 > 0:26:16deal will be agreed?
0:26:16 > 0:26:19And both the UK Government and the EU are hoping to reach final
0:26:19 > 0:26:21agreement on separation issues by October 2018.
0:26:21 > 0:26:23It's unclear whether the future trading relationship will be covered
0:26:23 > 0:26:25by a broad political declaration or a more detailed agreement.
0:26:25 > 0:26:28And after any deal is agreed, it will to be voted
0:26:28 > 0:26:31on in the UK parliament - and there will also be ratification
0:26:31 > 0:26:37in the EU parliament and the remaining EU countries.
0:26:37 > 0:26:39On 29th March 2019, the UK will leave the EU, and,
0:26:39 > 0:26:41in theory, enter a transition or implementation period.
0:26:41 > 0:26:44The EU have said they think that the transition deal should
0:26:44 > 0:26:52end by December 2020.
0:26:53 > 0:26:55Well, MEPs in Strasbourg have this morning been debating the deal
0:26:55 > 0:26:58struck at the end of last year, concluding the first part
0:26:58 > 0:26:59of the negotiations.
0:26:59 > 0:27:01Our correspondent Adam Fleming is there as usual.
0:27:01 > 0:27:02S, it is important stuff,
0:27:04 > 0:27:12Adam, tell us what was discussed?
0:27:12 > 0:27:16The big thing today was Donald Tusk, the President of the European
0:27:16 > 0:27:20Council who chairs the summit says the door was open for the UK to stay
0:27:20 > 0:27:24in the EU, if British voters decide to change their minds. He has said
0:27:24 > 0:27:29something like this before, do you remember last summer when he
0:27:29 > 0:27:32channelled John Lennon and said a imagine a world where there's no
0:27:32 > 0:27:35Brexit. He has never said it so strongly as this. This is what he
0:27:35 > 0:27:43had to say a couple of hours ago. If the UK Government sticks to its
0:27:43 > 0:27:49decision to leave, Brexit will become a reality, with all its
0:27:49 > 0:27:55negative consequences, in March next year. Unless there is a change of
0:27:55 > 0:28:05heart among our British friends. Wasn't it David Davis himself who
0:28:05 > 0:28:10said if democracy cannot change its mind it ceases to be a democracy, we
0:28:10 > 0:28:13here on the Continent haven't had a change of heart. Our hearts are
0:28:13 > 0:28:20still open to you. And that sentiment was enco-ed by
0:28:20 > 0:28:23Jean-Claude Juncker, the Presidents of the European Commission, who said
0:28:23 > 0:28:27he hopes that message was heard loud and clear in London. Now, what both
0:28:27 > 0:28:32men said though, was that what they really want now is for the UK
0:28:32 > 0:28:35Government to provide more clarity about what sort of relationship they
0:28:35 > 0:28:40want with the EU, ahead of the negotiations about phase two, trade,
0:28:40 > 0:28:44cooperation on security and defence and all sorts of stuff like that
0:28:44 > 0:28:47which will start after another EU summit in March.
0:28:47 > 0:28:58Thank you very much. We are joined by Nigel Evans.
0:28:59 > 0:29:04Michael, what do you make of that?I heard it all. We have changed our
0:29:04 > 0:29:08mind we decided in 1975 to vote to stay in the European Union, and we
0:29:08 > 0:29:12have changed our mind, we have decided to come out. If in 40 odd
0:29:12 > 0:29:15years the British people want to have another say maybe we will
0:29:15 > 0:29:19change our minds again. Maybe the European Union are going to change
0:29:19 > 0:29:22their minds about their approach to how the European Union is going to
0:29:22 > 0:29:27develop over the coming year, they have problems with Poland, problems
0:29:27 > 0:29:31with Hungary, economic disaster in countries like Greece who are going
0:29:31 > 0:29:37for another £5 billion bail out with more austerity measure, they have a
0:29:37 > 0:29:42huge number of problems on their plate. I will focus on that, I know
0:29:42 > 0:29:45the European Union are used to countries voting in treaty
0:29:45 > 0:29:49referendums, and when they get it wrong being asked to vote again,
0:29:49 > 0:29:52well, nobody's asking for us to vote again other than those who want us
0:29:52 > 0:29:56to stay in the European Union.As you say there are some, although
0:29:56 > 0:30:00Nigel Farage did raise the spectre of a second referendum even if he
0:30:00 > 0:30:08was slapped down for it after. Several MPs who supported Remain
0:30:08 > 0:30:12including Anna Soubry met Michel Barnier in Brussels. Do you think
0:30:12 > 0:30:18that is a helpful contributionI don't know what Anna said to Michel
0:30:18 > 0:30:22Barnier, whether she and Dominic Grieve and a few others spelled out
0:30:22 > 0:30:28the real issue, we voted to leave by a clear margin, 57% of my own
0:30:28 > 0:30:33constituency voted to leave. Every one in Lancashire voted to leave.
0:30:33 > 0:30:38Anna Soubry's own constituency voted to leave and so I think it is quite
0:30:38 > 0:30:42a clear message, 1.4 million difference in the largest
0:30:42 > 0:30:49participatory referendum this country has ever seen.
0:30:50 > 0:30:53All we want to do now is Levon really good terms. I am hoping that
0:30:53 > 0:31:01is what Anna was talking to Michel Barnier about. We still want to buy
0:31:01 > 0:31:07champagne from France. We still want to trade with them.Let us talk
0:31:07 > 0:31:11about the deal. The transition needs to be agreed before you get to the
0:31:11 > 0:31:16end point of the deal. What do you say to reports today the EU will
0:31:16 > 0:31:20insist on the transition being virtually exactly the same as the
0:31:20 > 0:31:24status quo, including freedom of movement continuing?We will have to
0:31:24 > 0:31:28see about that. It seems as if the argument is being reopened now when
0:31:28 > 0:31:32we thought the issue as far as EU citizens in Britain and British
0:31:32 > 0:31:43citizens in the EU had
0:31:47 > 0:31:50been properly settled and either stand the Polish are saying they are
0:31:50 > 0:31:52unhappy with that and would rather liked to continue in the transition
0:31:52 > 0:31:54period.You thought freedom of movement would finish in March,
0:31:54 > 0:31:572019, and that is what you would like Theresa May to secure?That is
0:31:57 > 0:32:00what I would like. If they want to come and settle and have the same
0:32:00 > 0:32:03rights as other EU citizens in the UK, they can do that until then, and
0:32:03 > 0:32:06the other way around.Would you accept those terms continuing in
0:32:06 > 0:32:09transition, single market membership, part of the customs
0:32:09 > 0:32:14union, taking and accepting some rules from the ECJ and allowing any
0:32:14 > 0:32:19EU citizens coming here up until 2020 2/2-full residency rights, like
0:32:19 > 0:32:24British citizens in the EU countries, would you those terms?
0:32:24 > 0:32:28I'm a pragmatist. I know the Prime Minister and David Davis will be
0:32:28 > 0:32:33negotiating up until October this year. My own view on that is I am
0:32:33 > 0:32:38not going to tie the hands of the Prime Minister. If she is able to
0:32:38 > 0:32:41negotiate a sensible deal and a trade-off in other areas by
0:32:41 > 0:32:46accepting that, I will leave it to her, I will back the Prime Minister
0:32:46 > 0:32:50in the negotiation she is currently doing, I will not tie her hands.
0:32:50 > 0:32:55What about the EU withdrawal bill? The flagship piece of Brexit
0:32:55 > 0:32:59legislation.Another two days.I am sure you are looking forward to it.
0:32:59 > 0:33:04The Government was defeated by Tory rebels last month, including Anna
0:33:04 > 0:33:09Soubry. Are you expecting more trouble?Only in the House of Lords.
0:33:09 > 0:33:14Anna will let us know about what the approach is from those who are more
0:33:14 > 0:33:20pro-European than I am, but I understand that when it gets to the
0:33:20 > 0:33:24House of Lords, clearly people like Lord Adonis and Michael Heseltine,
0:33:24 > 0:33:28still fighting the last war, as far as the referendum is concerned, they
0:33:28 > 0:33:33are going to do what they can to thwart Britain leaving the EU. It
0:33:33 > 0:33:40will be an interesting battle. The people versus the peers, the
0:33:40 > 0:33:43unelected members of the House of Lords against the sovereignty of the
0:33:43 > 0:33:47British people who voted in a referendum and we all remember that
0:33:47 > 0:33:51David Cameron sent a pamphlet to every household in the country,
0:33:51 > 0:33:58costing 9 million quid, and on the back, it said, we will respect the
0:33:58 > 0:34:01will of the British people. It will take a very brave House of Lords to
0:34:01 > 0:34:07go against that.Thank you. You went to see Michel Barnier with others
0:34:07 > 0:34:13yesterday.We actually saw some other people as well.Michel Barnier
0:34:13 > 0:34:18was one of the people you saw. What did you say?A private conversation.
0:34:18 > 0:34:23The details of which I am not going to go into. I can tell you we made
0:34:23 > 0:34:27the case and we made it very clear we want the best deal we can
0:34:27 > 0:34:31possibly get but in all of our discussions yesterday, it was very
0:34:31 > 0:34:37interesting, the messages we were getting back. There is obviously
0:34:37 > 0:34:40very grave concern about whether or not we are being realistic and
0:34:40 > 0:34:44indeed whether or not people are being properly informed as to the
0:34:44 > 0:34:49reality of what is likely to be offered. We have put ourselves in a
0:34:49 > 0:34:54difficult position. We are leaving the EU but we have tied our hands
0:34:54 > 0:34:58unfortunately by the red line is the Government set down before the
0:34:58 > 0:35:02general election in June.Except, of course, Nigel Evans has just said,
0:35:02 > 0:35:07he will not tie the Government's hands, the status quo will remain.
0:35:07 > 0:35:10The transition period is a whole load of other stuff as well, I am
0:35:10 > 0:35:14talking about the red lines the Prime Minister laid down in the
0:35:14 > 0:35:18Lancaster gate speech, no single market, customs union, ECJ.You
0:35:18 > 0:35:23think that is a possibility, we would remain in the single market
0:35:23 > 0:35:27estimate we can't.Sorry, by putting down the red lines, before the
0:35:27 > 0:35:32general election, which clearly we lost our majority in, rejection of
0:35:32 > 0:35:35the British people of the hard Brexit which I think the Prime
0:35:35 > 0:35:40Minister, I do not think she wanted it, but those behind her did, they
0:35:40 > 0:35:43were preparing for that, that is what the EU withdrawal bill is
0:35:43 > 0:35:47about, delivering a hard Brexit. Things changed. But we have not
0:35:47 > 0:35:51changed our red lines. What the EU can offer us is limited because we
0:35:51 > 0:36:00behind the red lines, we will not begin to blur...If that limits the
0:36:00 > 0:36:05options available, heading towards a hard Brexit, in your mind, the EU
0:36:05 > 0:36:08withdrawal bill, will you oppose the Government?I did not say that,
0:36:08 > 0:36:13forgive me. I am hoping that is not what will happen and I do not
0:36:13 > 0:36:17believe our Prime Minister wants that for one moment. The difficulty
0:36:17 > 0:36:23is as far as the EU is concerned, everything is on the table, single
0:36:23 > 0:36:27market, customs union, ECJ. All the things that flow from that. Our
0:36:27 > 0:36:31problem as a country is we have reduced the options and we have not
0:36:31 > 0:36:37revisited them in the wake... My own very strong belief is that we should
0:36:37 > 0:36:42put all the options back on the table to enable decent negotiations
0:36:42 > 0:36:48to carry on. In the transition period, we really have to be honest
0:36:48 > 0:36:53with people and realistic, the EU hold the cards.Right, of course,
0:36:53 > 0:37:00the Government says that is not the case. One commentator, Tim
0:37:00 > 0:37:03Montgomerie, on Twitter, quoted Margaret Thatcher when he saw your
0:37:03 > 0:37:10picture of you and others, treachery with a smile on its face, what do
0:37:10 > 0:37:14you say to him?I am not interested. We were having a very good
0:37:14 > 0:37:19discussion which is what the British people want to hear.Are you
0:37:19 > 0:37:22betraying people who voted in?I am not interested in playing that game
0:37:22 > 0:37:27of politics.You said the Government has tied its hand with the red lines
0:37:27 > 0:37:32and you disagree, but are they not just representing the 17.4 million
0:37:32 > 0:37:35people who voted leave?They voted to leave the EU, we will leave the
0:37:35 > 0:37:41EU, but we did not put on the ballot paper, it was not part... What does
0:37:41 > 0:37:48leave mean? One of the big problems EU has is that our government still
0:37:48 > 0:37:52has not decided what leave means. Come on, when you go into
0:37:52 > 0:37:55negotiations, how can the EU deal with the government that has not
0:37:55 > 0:37:59itself worked out what it wants?It is going to, and later this month,
0:37:59 > 0:38:04the EU withdrawal bill will go to the Lords. Do you agree with Nigel
0:38:04 > 0:38:07Evans the Lords could perhaps overturned some of what has been
0:38:07 > 0:38:11achieved in the Commons?The Lords will do whatever they wish to do,
0:38:11 > 0:38:19put down all sorts of amendments no doubt.Do you cheer them on? Michael
0:38:19 > 0:38:23Heseltine, what are you hoping the Lords will achieve?What I want the
0:38:23 > 0:38:27Lords to do is to do its job which is to scrutinise legislation, that
0:38:27 > 0:38:32is their job and I hope they will do that. What I think is more important
0:38:32 > 0:38:36than all of this is that in my opinion the British people are fed
0:38:36 > 0:38:41up to the back teeth with Brexit. What evidence have you got for that?
0:38:41 > 0:38:47I am a constituency MP, I know what my constituents tell me. I know... I
0:38:47 > 0:38:51have just been elected only six months ago, people are fed up with
0:38:51 > 0:38:55Brexit.They would not want a referendum on the deal or a second
0:38:55 > 0:38:58referendum?Can I just finished my sentence? They are fed up with
0:38:58 > 0:39:04Brexit and they want somebody to get on and deliver on Brexit and they
0:39:04 > 0:39:09also want and they are increasingly concerned, as they understand the
0:39:09 > 0:39:15arguments, learn more about the reality of Brexit, they are worried,
0:39:15 > 0:39:18ordinary, good people are worried... Would they like to see a vote on the
0:39:18 > 0:39:23terms of the deal? Would you support that?That is for the people of this
0:39:23 > 0:39:29country, they are in charge, they have to be.A second public vote,
0:39:29 > 0:39:34that would have to be parliament? No, it comes from the people. All of
0:39:34 > 0:39:38these things must come from the people. Politicians can have their
0:39:38 > 0:39:42point of view, Mr Farage has a point of view, but it must come from the
0:39:42 > 0:39:46people and they must be in charge of the whole of the Brexit process.
0:39:46 > 0:39:50They are an easy and at the moment they have two political parties that
0:39:50 > 0:39:54they do not believe represents them. There are millions of people in the
0:39:54 > 0:40:00country... 82% of them voted for both of them in the election.We
0:40:00 > 0:40:05have to get onto other items. I am not allowed to respond.You have
0:40:05 > 0:40:08responded quite fully.
0:40:08 > 0:40:10Inflation dropped slightly in December from 3.1% to 3%,
0:40:10 > 0:40:13according to figures published this morning, the first fall since June.
0:40:13 > 0:40:15The Office for National Statistics says it's too early to say
0:40:15 > 0:40:18whether this is the start of a longer-term reduction
0:40:18 > 0:40:20in the rate of inflation, although the Bank of England has
0:40:20 > 0:40:24said it expected it to return to the target of 2% later this year.
0:40:24 > 0:40:26There was, however, little good news for households in research published
0:40:26 > 0:40:29this morning by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which found that
0:40:29 > 0:40:32a third of the the lowest-income households have loans and credit
0:40:32 > 0:40:33card debts that outstrip the assets they hold.
0:40:33 > 0:40:39We're joined now by Andrew Hood from the IFS.
0:40:39 > 0:40:44Should the Government be worried?It is clearly important when thinking
0:40:44 > 0:40:47about household living standards and something government is concerned
0:40:47 > 0:40:51about not just to think about their incomes households have but also
0:40:51 > 0:40:55where the income is going and in particular, if a large chunk is
0:40:55 > 0:40:58going on servicing existing debt repayments rather than buying goods
0:40:58 > 0:41:02and services, that could be a concern.What do you think should be
0:41:02 > 0:41:08done to help those low income households or individuals who are
0:41:08 > 0:41:12taking loans to service debt? How could the Government help them?One
0:41:12 > 0:41:16of the key the report brings to light is that it is quite
0:41:16 > 0:41:20challenging to work out exactly why households take out debt. As you
0:41:20 > 0:41:25mentioned, we look both at debt but also that things like savings. It
0:41:25 > 0:41:31turns out even though households have assets, in a number of cases,
0:41:31 > 0:41:34they still take on debt. It might be encouraging households to for
0:41:34 > 0:41:39example save more, that would not be a panacea for the issue of problem
0:41:39 > 0:41:42that among low-income households. Thank you very much.
0:41:42 > 0:41:44We're joined now by the Shadow Treasury Minister,
0:41:44 > 0:41:45Jonathan Reynolds.
0:41:45 > 0:41:50What do you want the Government to do, having looked at the report?
0:41:50 > 0:41:54There are two things, stop pursuing policies making the situation worse
0:41:54 > 0:41:59for families.Which? The freeze on benefits, public sector pay freeze.
0:41:59 > 0:42:04A long wait before you get support, pushing people to credit or
0:42:04 > 0:42:09foodbank. We also believe there are some interventions were more
0:42:09 > 0:42:13government action is required, for instance, we set out a policy on
0:42:13 > 0:42:16credit card charges. Credit cards are useful but if you manage
0:42:16 > 0:42:20long-term debt with them, clearly a problem, there are a big group of
0:42:20 > 0:42:23people who will never pay off the principal amount of money they
0:42:23 > 0:42:27borrowed. Some of that should be capped. A big space on the market
0:42:27 > 0:42:31here for the Government to do more, as well as pursuing wider government
0:42:31 > 0:42:36policies to not make the situation worse.On the issue of credit card
0:42:36 > 0:42:41charges, do you agree with Jonathan Reynolds there should be a cap on
0:42:41 > 0:42:44the interest charge?Not particularly. I think the previous
0:42:44 > 0:42:48government did a lot of good work with payday loans which I was always
0:42:48 > 0:42:52far more concerned about because they were usually the company is
0:42:52 > 0:42:55targeting the people with the least amount of money.One of the biggest
0:42:55 > 0:42:59contributors to the high levels of debt by low-income households,
0:42:59 > 0:43:03people using credit cards and being charged very high interest rates to
0:43:03 > 0:43:07service the debt, for instance, because they have not got high
0:43:07 > 0:43:12enough salaries. To make ends meet. I would like everybody to frankly
0:43:12 > 0:43:16live more within their means and I think it is really important. I
0:43:16 > 0:43:22understand in difficult times, it is a good point, people on Universal
0:43:22 > 0:43:26Credit, going on to it, but I think it is difficult, on the one hand,
0:43:26 > 0:43:31you want an economy where people buy more, you have a society which has
0:43:31 > 0:43:37led to people, you can have today what you want tomorrow. And
0:43:37 > 0:43:41encouragement of credit. It is difficult getting the balance right.
0:43:41 > 0:43:45The problem is when people cannot service the debt but it is
0:43:45 > 0:43:48ultimately the responsibility of all of us individually.In the end, at
0:43:48 > 0:43:53the to live within their means?We have to face the fact a lot of
0:43:53 > 0:43:56people are not in a position to be able to make those decisions because
0:43:56 > 0:44:01they cannot make ends meet, an important point to stress is if you
0:44:01 > 0:44:06look at the Government's economic plans from the Office for Budget
0:44:06 > 0:44:09Responsibility, the rate of growth, it is predicated on household debt
0:44:09 > 0:44:14is going up. Quite frankly, for some people, Anna is right, the
0:44:14 > 0:44:18Government needs to do more on it, people end up going from one lender
0:44:18 > 0:44:22to another, a payday lender to a credit card, they end up in a
0:44:22 > 0:44:26terrible... The impact is huge.That is where we want government to do
0:44:26 > 0:44:31more. You do not want the Government to do anything about capping?I do
0:44:31 > 0:44:36not think it helps those people. One of the things we talked a lot about
0:44:36 > 0:44:40in the 2010-15 Parliament, good cross-party work, the encouragement
0:44:40 > 0:44:43of credit unions, they work in communities with people who do not
0:44:43 > 0:44:49have access to the information that other people have and I have always
0:44:49 > 0:44:52thought it was unfortunate, we never made the progress on things like
0:44:52 > 0:44:56that that I think we should have done. A good example of good
0:44:56 > 0:44:59cross-party working.Let us look at the broader policies, you say people
0:44:59 > 0:45:02should live within their means, but with the Universal Credit policy
0:45:02 > 0:45:06being rolled out, people were expected to suddenly work on a
0:45:06 > 0:45:10monthly or six weekly basis and that was very difficult for people being
0:45:10 > 0:45:23paid weekly. In that sense, the Government has
0:45:28 > 0:45:30made it difficult for people to live within their means.We have changed
0:45:30 > 0:45:33some of that.Not all. What about the quote the Government always
0:45:33 > 0:45:35refers to, record levels of employment, but wages not high
0:45:35 > 0:45:37enough to meet the levels of inflation. What should be done about
0:45:37 > 0:45:40that?That is different. We now have a living wage.Not keeping pace with
0:45:40 > 0:45:44inflation.Dropped.Marginally.That is news to be welcomed. We have
0:45:44 > 0:45:48lifted the pay cut when it comes to the health service and we have said
0:45:48 > 0:45:52we are open to the review bodies and I accept that there is a problem
0:45:52 > 0:45:56with people who are on low wages in our country.Should they be paid
0:45:56 > 0:46:07more? Should the living wage go up? Of course I want people to be paid
0:46:07 > 0:46:11more, the way we do that is to make sure we have a society where people
0:46:11 > 0:46:16have the skills they need, to get those better paid jobs, as our
0:46:16 > 0:46:19society develops we are going to see more automation, and that concerns
0:46:19 > 0:46:23all of us, because then you could see an impact on lower paid people,
0:46:23 > 0:46:27because they won't have job, so we need to upskill, that is really
0:46:27 > 0:46:31important.You are obviously welcoming the fact there is record
0:46:31 > 0:46:35levels of employment, but in your mind, what could be done to make it
0:46:35 > 0:46:39easier for people still on low incomes?Of course I welcome record
0:46:39 > 0:46:44levels of employment. I want people to have work, but we can't deny the
0:46:44 > 0:46:49very valid point you made which is for a lot of people it is low paid,
0:46:49 > 0:46:56low skilled. That has led people to have difficult lives. To raise
0:46:56 > 0:46:59wages, but you have to increase productivity, that requires
0:46:59 > 0:47:04investment. It is hard to get investment when you have the
0:47:04 > 0:47:07uncertainty round something very wig like Brexit going on, we have said
0:47:07 > 0:47:11clearly there is a bigger role for public investment, through being
0:47:11 > 0:47:14clear about separating out day-to-day borrowing from the
0:47:14 > 0:47:18Government, from long-term investment spending, that is what we
0:47:18 > 0:47:21are attacked for from the Government. There has to be a plan
0:47:21 > 0:47:26to raise. If we have a Corbyn Government God help the economyThat
0:47:26 > 0:47:30is the harsh reality I agree about investment, that is why I am
0:47:30 > 0:47:34ploughed of the fact our investment in infrastructure is at record
0:47:34 > 0:47:39level, I think we are getting the balance right.It is not what this
0:47:39 > 0:47:44country needs to...We will have to leave it there.
0:47:44 > 0:47:46It's now been a year since the devolved government
0:47:46 > 0:47:48in Northern Ireland collapsed, after Sinn Fein walked out
0:47:48 > 0:47:51after a row about the failure of a renewable heating scheme blamed
0:47:51 > 0:47:53on the Democratic Unionist Party.
0:47:53 > 0:47:54Since then, it's been without the assembly
0:47:54 > 0:47:56Since then, it's been without the Assembly
0:47:56 > 0:47:59and the executive, and most of its functions have been carried
0:47:59 > 0:48:01out by civil servants under the supervision of Westminster.
0:48:01 > 0:48:03But it's not the only example of countries functioning
0:48:03 > 0:48:04without an elected government.
0:48:04 > 0:48:09Have a look at this.
0:48:09 > 0:48:13It seems that size doesn't matter when it comes to managing without a
0:48:13 > 0:48:17government. Germany still doesn't have one, after its inconclusive
0:48:17 > 0:48:25federal election in September. A blueprint for norm formal
0:48:25 > 0:48:28negotiations has been agree. But it could be months before new ministers
0:48:28 > 0:48:33are in place. The record for the longst period
0:48:33 > 0:48:40without an elected Government in a democracy was set in Belgian in
0:48:40 > 0:48:442010/11 after wrangling between politicians led to a 589 day
0:48:44 > 0:48:51stalemate. The previous record holder was Iraq. Rip aid part by
0:48:51 > 0:48:56warring clan, pirates and extremists it is not surprising that Somalia
0:48:56 > 0:49:01had no functioning Government for almost 15 yores from the early 90s.
0:49:01 > 0:49:06A the other end of spectrum the US Government has shut down with
0:49:06 > 0:49:08surprising regularly, when Presidents have failed to agree on
0:49:08 > 0:49:12funding with Congress, it means Government workers at everything
0:49:12 > 0:49:17from museums to National Parkings and passport offices are sent home.
0:49:17 > 0:49:23And Antarctica is one of the few places on effort that permanently
0:49:23 > 0:49:28lacks anything resembling a government. It has no permanent
0:49:28 > 0:49:31population or indigenous people, apart from these little guys.
0:49:31 > 0:49:33apart from these little guys.
0:49:33 > 0:49:34We're joined now by Ed Turner.
0:49:34 > 0:49:37He's a lecturer in politics from Aston University.
0:49:37 > 0:49:42Welcome. Do we need Government at all?Absolutely we do, things can be
0:49:42 > 0:49:48kept ticking over for a while, so, the trains still goes, people get
0:49:48 > 0:49:51paid although that doesn't happen in America if there is a proper shut
0:49:51 > 0:49:55down. If you want to confront big challenges you face as a country you
0:49:55 > 0:50:01do need a government.What about in Germany, it is a big powerful
0:50:01 > 0:50:04country, it hasn't got a government since September.That is is right.
0:50:04 > 0:50:08The economy is doing well. As I say, the regional Governments are going
0:50:08 > 0:50:12strong, services are happening but the country isn't confronting the
0:50:12 > 0:50:16big challenge, a week ago I was stalking to a senior civil servant
0:50:16 > 0:50:20who said in practise no being decisions are being taken, the
0:50:20 > 0:50:25country is punching below its weight.No big decisions are being
0:50:25 > 0:50:30taken, things are postponed, in terms of day-to-day operating, the
0:50:30 > 0:50:34systems sort of step into place, there isn't the instability and
0:50:34 > 0:50:38chaos people predict.That is right. In the case of Northern Ireland you
0:50:38 > 0:50:44have the British Government able to step in the the case of Germany or
0:50:44 > 0:50:48Spain, Belgian you have regional Governments, if you have fundamental
0:50:48 > 0:50:50challenges you need to address you do need to give political direction
0:50:50 > 0:50:53to the Civil Service, and that doesn't happen in you have no
0:50:53 > 0:50:57established Government.Is is there really as much pressure to restore
0:50:57 > 0:51:01this executive in terms of a time frame, when actually it is
0:51:01 > 0:51:08functioning all right without it for the moment?You always want
0:51:08 > 0:51:10democratically elected governance, it is fascinating. I am listening to
0:51:10 > 0:51:15him. I am learning a lot. Keep asking him.What about the future,
0:51:15 > 0:51:20would you like to see the executive reestored as soon as possible.Of
0:51:20 > 0:51:24course, as I say do you want democratically elected Government?
0:51:24 > 0:51:29We do this thing called Purdah, we have, ministers, everybody steps
0:51:29 > 0:51:34back and it is a mark of a great Civil Service, that things carry on,
0:51:34 > 0:51:37that you want democratic Government. What are the negative consequences
0:51:37 > 0:51:41of being without a government? You said the decisions are postponed,
0:51:41 > 0:51:45important decision, is there anything else?Well, there is the
0:51:45 > 0:51:50important point an ma made about the legitimacy of decision, there is
0:51:50 > 0:51:54something about things might get slipped through, there was a mini
0:51:54 > 0:51:58crisis in Germany, where in the Council of Ministers, in the
0:51:58 > 0:52:03European Union one acting minister went rogue, cast Germany's vote in
0:52:03 > 0:52:08favour of reviewing the vote for a controversial pesticide. You might
0:52:08 > 0:52:11see things slipped through untiler the radar, we need politicians to
0:52:11 > 0:52:14hold the Civil Service to account. What about the example of Belgian,
0:52:14 > 0:52:19not as much in the news as Germany, but I think they hold the record in
0:52:19 > 0:52:23living without a government for a period of time. What happened there?
0:52:23 > 0:52:27Well, there was a long running disagreement about constitutional
0:52:27 > 0:52:31arrangements. It looked like the country would split, and they
0:52:31 > 0:52:36managed to keep the show on the road. At the same time there were
0:52:36 > 0:52:39fundamental domestic questions about fiscal policy they couldn't resolve
0:52:39 > 0:52:43until a new Government was formed. So they kept things going, they
0:52:43 > 0:52:47managed to hold the presidency of the European Council for some of
0:52:47 > 0:52:51that time. They couldn't address fundamental prisons because they
0:52:51 > 0:52:55didn't have a government in place, you need political cover, an
0:52:55 > 0:53:00effected Government to do that.When politics as chaotic as it is in
0:53:00 > 0:53:06Italy is it's a good idea to have technocrats taking over?It is a
0:53:06 > 0:53:10question, but of course technocrats imply you can take the politicsous
0:53:10 > 0:53:15of decisions, but in Italy they were taking profoundly political decision
0:53:15 > 0:53:19without a democratic mandate. For those 06 us who believe in free and
0:53:19 > 0:53:20fair elections that is a problem.
0:53:20 > 0:53:21fair elections that is a problem.
0:53:21 > 0:53:23Jacob Rees-Mogg has become perhaps the unlikeliest star
0:53:23 > 0:53:26of the current Parliament - the darling of the Conservative Party
0:53:26 > 0:53:28conference, the subject of an online fan movement known as Moggmentum,
0:53:28 > 0:53:31and currently bookies' favourite to succeed Theresa May as next
0:53:31 > 0:53:34leader of the party.
0:53:34 > 0:53:37If you're one of those who feels they're just not hearing enough
0:53:37 > 0:53:40from the MP for North East Somerset, then I have good news.
0:53:40 > 0:53:42He's agreed to take part in a fortnightly podcast
0:53:42 > 0:53:44for the website Conservative Home called, perhaps
0:53:44 > 0:53:45inevitably, the Moggcast.
0:53:45 > 0:53:47Let's have a listen to him discussing one of the biggest
0:53:47 > 0:53:52domestic challenges facing the government.
0:53:52 > 0:53:53Out of decisions, but in
0:53:56 > 0:54:00The other obvious area is the Health Service, which is clearly under
0:54:00 > 0:54:06strain during the winner flu outbreak, but in reality, austerity
0:54:06 > 0:54:12in the NHS for seven years of 1% real increases is against what has
0:54:12 > 0:54:16happened in its previous history, and it is going to be very hard to
0:54:16 > 0:54:19continue with moufr there are limited resources.
0:54:19 > 0:54:22continue with moufr there are limited resources.
0:54:22 > 0:54:25And Paul Goodman from the website Conservative Home joins us now.
0:54:25 > 0:54:29Is this Moggcast just him speaking, is there any debate, you know, what
0:54:29 > 0:54:35happens?I do talk to him. There is conversation, him and I or Mark
0:54:35 > 0:54:40Wallace and I, he is my other co-worker on Conservative Home. We
0:54:40 > 0:54:45thought of offering him a column. We have to cover the whole Tory
0:54:45 > 0:54:48landscape, is one of the most distinctive figures on the
0:54:48 > 0:54:53landscape. We could have done that, Nicky Morgan has a column, and we
0:54:53 > 0:54:57could have offered one to him. I thought what he is best known for,
0:54:57 > 0:55:01is his speaking, so I will sit down with him once a fortnight and
0:55:01 > 0:55:06discuss the NHS, he wants a bit more money for it, housing, he's all in
0:55:06 > 0:55:11favour of more building on green belt if necessary, which might
0:55:11 > 0:55:13surprise, and Brexit, where he thinks the House of Lords shouldn't
0:55:13 > 0:55:17hold up with the withdrawal bill. Is. What the most revealing thick he
0:55:17 > 0:55:23has said? The most revealing thing so far, and it came as a slight
0:55:23 > 0:55:28surprise to the audience, is he said it is going to be hard to sustain
0:55:28 > 0:55:32NHS spending at this level rather than increase it, given the
0:55:32 > 0:55:37pressures on the service, that will surprise some because he is seen as
0:55:37 > 0:55:42a figure very much on the right of the party. He dropped add broad hint
0:55:42 > 0:55:48on that, so we have gone with that. Have we reached peak Mogg in your
0:55:48 > 0:55:55mind?I have no idea. He doesn't represent Conservative members in my
0:55:55 > 0:56:01constituency or Conservative voter, he has obviously, he is an important
0:56:01 > 0:56:06player, he is a delightful man, but I don't think that I would like
0:56:06 > 0:56:11people to think Jacob represents the modern day Conservative Party.Why
0:56:11 > 0:56:15is he so popular with so many?I don't know where the evidence is for
0:56:15 > 0:56:24that.According to our survey we have a 1300 monthly panel. 70% of
0:56:24 > 0:56:29them last month lined up behind the Prime Minister's EU deal, so it is
0:56:29 > 0:56:34not a bunch of...Anybody,But your website is open to everybody, and if
0:56:34 > 0:56:37you look at the comments on it, there are a large number of poo who
0:56:37 > 0:56:41are not members of the Conservative Party who put comments, so to do
0:56:41 > 0:56:51polls.That is the classic mistake, if I may say so, of, mistaken for
0:56:51 > 0:56:55the thousands who read it each day. They are not necessarily members of
0:56:55 > 0:57:02the Conservative Party.Look at the results, if it was Ukipers or very
0:57:02 > 0:57:09hard line Brexiteers you would have 7% of those who respond... In fact
0:57:09 > 0:57:1370% of them, seven in ten I am sure it's the same sort of view in your
0:57:13 > 0:57:19association, you will tell me were lined up behind the PM's deal.He
0:57:19 > 0:57:23was the darling of the party conference?What do you say that,
0:57:23 > 0:57:29because a lot of people went to a fringe meeting.It was packed.Most
0:57:29 > 0:57:33Conservative Party members do not go to conference, because in my
0:57:33 > 0:57:40association most of them are at work.Graham Brady who would oversee
0:57:40 > 0:57:45a leadership contest says he doesn't think Jacob Rees-Mogg is a viable
0:57:45 > 0:57:51candidate.He said that himself, you can't come from the backbench to be
0:57:51 > 0:57:55Prime Minister. I find it hard to imagine Jacob as Prime Minister, you
0:57:55 > 0:58:00never know, Anna is right in once seven, if we had the ebb website
0:58:00 > 0:58:04seven days a week and all we had was Jacob Rees-Mogg, this would be
0:58:04 > 0:58:07unrepresentative of what members think, that you have to have a mix,
0:58:07 > 0:58:14that is why we have Nicky Morgan I think works closely with Anna,
0:58:14 > 0:58:20Garvin Walsh, a big critic of Brexit.Has he been given a big
0:58:20 > 0:58:29platform?Yes, he does not represent the majority of Conservative voters
0:58:29 > 0:58:34for sure, his view on abortion are deeply upsetting and troubling to
0:58:34 > 0:58:39many of us, both women, Conservative women and men and they don't
0:58:39 > 0:58:41represent Conservative voters or Conservative members, and that is
0:58:41 > 0:58:48very important.Has he been given too much of a platform?It depends,
0:58:48 > 0:58:52if you are trying to get readers you will have Nicky Morgan to get up
0:58:52 > 0:58:56your ratings.On that, on that note we have to end the show and say
0:58:56 > 0:58:59goodbye, thank do you Anna Soubry for beings my guest of the day.
0:58:59 > 0:59:03Goodbye.