0:00:38 > 0:00:40Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43President Macron is hopping over the Channel to pay a visit
0:00:43 > 0:00:46to Theresa May with the promise of a loan of the Bayer Tapestry
0:00:46 > 0:00:48and a call for greater military cooperation.
0:00:48 > 0:00:56We'll assess the strength of the Entente Cordiale.
0:00:57 > 0:00:59Taxpayers are paying billions of pounds more for PFI
0:00:59 > 0:01:02projects than they would if they were in the private
0:01:02 > 0:01:03sector, according to the National Audit Office,
0:01:03 > 0:01:07so are they a waste of money?
0:01:07 > 0:01:11A deal has been made for hundreds of thousands of Rohingya refugees
0:01:11 > 0:01:19to start returning to Myanmar, but with many voicing concerns
0:01:21 > 0:01:24concerns over their safety, we'll speak to one MP who's visited
0:01:24 > 0:01:25the refugee camps in Bangladesh.
0:01:25 > 0:01:26And fancy becoming an MP?
0:01:26 > 0:01:28As new research shows that, surprise surprise, not
0:01:28 > 0:01:31many of us fancy it, we'll look at what can be done
0:01:31 > 0:01:34to encourage more people to say 'vote for me'!
0:01:37 > 0:01:40All that in the next hour and with us for the whole
0:01:40 > 0:01:42of the programme today is the journalist and broadcaster,
0:01:42 > 0:01:43Jonathan Freedland.
0:01:43 > 0:01:45Welcome to the show.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47Good to be here.
0:01:47 > 0:01:48Good to be here.
0:01:48 > 0:01:54First this morning, tax payers will have to pay nearly £200 billion
0:01:54 > 0:02:02more for schemes set up under Private Finance Initiatives
0:02:03 > 0:02:06than in the public sector according to the National Audit Office.
0:02:06 > 0:02:08Under the schemes, private companies build facilities like schools,
0:02:08 > 0:02:12hospitals and roads, in return for regular payments over
0:02:12 > 0:02:13many years.
0:02:13 > 0:02:15Let's get more on this with Graham Atkins from
0:02:15 > 0:02:17the Institute for Government.
0:02:17 > 0:02:22Graham, when you look at that figure from the National Audit Office, £200
0:02:22 > 0:02:26billion more than we would have had to pay for these things than if they
0:02:26 > 0:02:31were in the public sector, doesn't that prove that PFIs are a waste of
0:02:31 > 0:02:36money?I think that figure comes from payments that are set to be
0:02:36 > 0:02:39made but the thing is that we don't know how much they would have cost
0:02:39 > 0:02:43in the public sector and the key point is that under a private
0:02:43 > 0:02:47finance contract, a private finance company will be set up and that will
0:02:47 > 0:02:51be responsible for the financing, building and the maintenance and if
0:02:51 > 0:02:54anything goes wrong, they absorb those losses. They can't absorb
0:02:54 > 0:02:59those losses all of the time, as we have seen in the case of Carillion.
0:02:59 > 0:03:04Sometimes too much loss -- risk can be transferred. But what we can't
0:03:04 > 0:03:10see is how much we would have had to pay if we had taken on those risks.
0:03:10 > 0:03:15So you don't think that PFIs which started under John Major and were
0:03:15 > 0:03:17really turbo-charged under successive Labour governments have
0:03:17 > 0:03:23had their day?I think the government will continue to use PFIs
0:03:23 > 0:03:27as it does look attractive if you think the private sector can handle
0:03:27 > 0:03:32the risks better. There is also an accounting issue in private finance
0:03:32 > 0:03:35and this really important issue is that when you use private finance,
0:03:35 > 0:03:39as these companies are using the revenue themselves, these figures
0:03:39 > 0:03:47don't show up in public sector debt and these figures are used to mark
0:03:47 > 0:03:50targets.Isn't that a problem? Gordon Brown was the one who
0:03:50 > 0:03:55famously liked to support these initiatives because it wouldn't be
0:03:55 > 0:03:58on the government balance sheet, but is that really a justification for
0:03:58 > 0:04:03carrying on with these sorts of initiatives?I don't think it is a
0:04:03 > 0:04:06justification, no. We should only carry on with Private Finance
0:04:06 > 0:04:11Initiatives better value when spending on these issues but there
0:04:11 > 0:04:16are measures the government can take. It can be more transparent
0:04:16 > 0:04:19about comparisons between different finance options and it is worth
0:04:19 > 0:04:22noting that depending on the measure of government debt you use, if you
0:04:22 > 0:04:28use the whole of government finances, for example, some of it is
0:04:28 > 0:04:33on Alan Sheets.One point wasted should it really be the point that
0:04:33 > 0:04:37private companies who are essentially trying to make profits
0:04:37 > 0:04:42are
0:04:42 > 0:04:48are responsible for essential public sector projects.I think sometimes
0:04:48 > 0:04:53the profit motive can be helpful in delivering these projects, in that
0:04:53 > 0:04:58they are incentivised to deliver them at the lowest possible cost.
0:04:58 > 0:05:03Obviously there is a quality issue, but I don't think the profit motive
0:05:03 > 0:05:09in itself is enough for us to say private finance is never worthwhile.
0:05:09 > 0:05:13Jonathan Freedland, the point is, with these projects have been built
0:05:13 > 0:05:19without PFIs?As a matter of politics, they might not have been.
0:05:19 > 0:05:24As you say, this was turbo-charged in the Tony Blair, Gordon Brown here
0:05:24 > 0:05:30and at the time you had a government who were so fearful at the politics
0:05:30 > 0:05:37of borrowing, so we would have had to no longer be allergic to
0:05:37 > 0:05:41borrowing to invest, as Gordon Brown and John Major work. They were in
0:05:41 > 0:05:46the corset of public spending limits and didn't feel they could raid to
0:05:46 > 0:05:50invest in schools and hospitals. I think perhaps the politics of this
0:05:50 > 0:05:53now would feel different.How effective would government be at
0:05:53 > 0:05:57running on its own hospitals and schools? Are we really saying it
0:05:57 > 0:06:01would be efficient in every regard compared to private companies?There
0:06:01 > 0:06:04are definitely some really big projects where the government's
0:06:04 > 0:06:10record is not good, so the NHS IT scheme, where £12 billion went down
0:06:10 > 0:06:16the drain that. When it comes to running your local schools, we all
0:06:16 > 0:06:19feel that we remember a time when that was done and you school dinner
0:06:19 > 0:06:25ladies instead of outside catering, but they seem to have vanished fine.
0:06:25 > 0:06:30This is an idea which seems to have expanded almost beyond its reach.
0:06:30 > 0:06:34There is also a fiction in this article that they are making things
0:06:34 > 0:06:37private which are not actually private, and Carillion has revealed
0:06:37 > 0:06:42that in the end, the big risk comes back to the government, in which
0:06:42 > 0:06:49case, why pretend that it doesn't? If that is the case, the profits are
0:06:49 > 0:06:52privatised and the losses are nationalised, is it not the case
0:06:52 > 0:06:56that they are not taking on risk, the private companies?There are a
0:06:56 > 0:06:59couple of different issues here and the first is that the risk of
0:06:59 > 0:07:03delivering these projects will always remain with the government,
0:07:03 > 0:07:12as far as if a company is building a school array hospital, the
0:07:12 > 0:07:15government will not allow that to not be delivered. But what happens
0:07:15 > 0:07:18when a company goes bust, it is important to note that Carillion
0:07:18 > 0:07:22have not been bailed out, it has been allowed to fail and there may
0:07:22 > 0:07:27be a cost to the taxpayer of finding any provider or finding somebody to
0:07:27 > 0:07:31run these things, but you cannot say the losses have been nationalised.
0:07:31 > 0:07:34Isn't it the case that it has been allowed to fail and is this really
0:07:34 > 0:07:41the watershed moment Jeremy Corbyn has talked about in terms of
0:07:41 > 0:07:43public-private partnership?That we won't know until time has passed a
0:07:43 > 0:07:48bit but the notion is that in the end we are on the hook for these
0:07:48 > 0:07:51things in that you can't get schools and hospitals fail. Starbucks goes
0:07:51 > 0:07:56bust, the government will not step in. But in this situation, where
0:07:56 > 0:07:59they are providing public goods, you know that in the end the risk is the
0:07:59 > 0:08:06taxpayer, in which case why let the games be privatised but the losses
0:08:06 > 0:08:09be socialised?Thank you for coming in.
0:08:09 > 0:08:11Now it's time for our daily quiz.
0:08:11 > 0:08:13The question for today is which politician booked to speak
0:08:13 > 0:08:16at a university event was billed at a student event at UCL as 'like
0:08:16 > 0:08:18hearing Barack Obama in 2003'?
0:08:18 > 0:08:19Was it:
0:08:19 > 0:08:21a) Green Party co-leader Jonathan Bartley
0:08:21 > 0:08:23b) Lib Dem MP Jo Swinson
0:08:23 > 0:08:25c) UKIP Leader Henry Bolton
0:08:25 > 0:08:29or d) Tory backbencher Jacob Rees-Mogg.
0:08:29 > 0:08:32At the end of the show, Jonathan will give us
0:08:32 > 0:08:35the correct answer.
0:08:35 > 0:08:38So the red carpet will be rolled out for President Macron later this
0:08:38 > 0:08:42afternoon and there's lots to talk about.
0:08:42 > 0:08:49Not least his offer of a loan of the bio tapestry. -- Bayeux tapestry.
0:08:49 > 0:08:52Emmanuel Macron and Theresa May are meeting for an Anglo-French Summit
0:08:52 > 0:08:53at Sandhurst military academy.
0:08:53 > 0:08:55They are expected to focus on defence and security matters,
0:08:55 > 0:08:58with Theresa May slated to announce that Britain will send military
0:08:58 > 0:09:00helicopters to join a French campaign against extremists in north
0:09:00 > 0:09:06Africa.
0:09:06 > 0:09:07-- west Africa.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10And the French President may try and push the UK to join
0:09:10 > 0:09:13a new European defence initiative - the European Intervention Initiative
0:09:13 > 0:09:15- aimed at closer integration of Europe's armed forces.
0:09:15 > 0:09:18The two leaders will also talk about the migrant crisis in Calais.
0:09:18 > 0:09:21During his presidential election campaign last year,
0:09:21 > 0:09:30Macron said he wanted to renegotiate or scrap the 2003 Le Touquet
0:09:30 > 0:09:32agreement which established the UK's border controls in Calais rather
0:09:32 > 0:09:33than on British soil.
0:09:33 > 0:09:36And the Home Office has confirmed that Theresa May has
0:09:36 > 0:09:39revised the agreement - by agreeing to pay the French
0:09:39 > 0:09:44£44.5 million to help with border security,
0:09:44 > 0:09:46and to take more unaccompanied children migrants with
0:09:46 > 0:09:48family ties to Britain.
0:09:48 > 0:09:51The French President has been unashamed in his attempts to lure
0:09:51 > 0:09:57London's financial services across the Channel and he could
0:09:57 > 0:10:00possibly make a similar pitch to British business today.
0:10:00 > 0:10:04Let's get more on this with our Paris Correspondent, Hugh Schofield.
0:10:04 > 0:10:08Has the French president got the upper hand in this meeting, is he
0:10:08 > 0:10:15riding high? Ah, we seem to have you frozen at that key moment. We will
0:10:15 > 0:10:18try to go back to him later.
0:10:18 > 0:10:21With me now is the Conservative MP Crispin Blunt, who was Chair of
0:10:21 > 0:10:23the Foreign Affairs Select Committee until the last election,
0:10:23 > 0:10:25and Eric Albert, London Correspondent for Le Monde.
0:10:25 > 0:10:29Welcome to both of you. Delighted you were here in the studio when
0:10:29 > 0:10:35that happened. Crispin Blunt, has he played a blinder against the British
0:10:35 > 0:10:40government, Emmanuel Macron? He has got 44 point £5 million and we get
0:10:40 > 0:10:46the Bayeux tapestry?I think we also get the continuation of the border
0:10:46 > 0:10:49under the Le Touquet agreement at Calais which is very important to us
0:10:49 > 0:10:53and clearly that has created big challenges for the French and it is
0:10:53 > 0:10:59right that we assist them with those challenges which protect our
0:10:59 > 0:11:07interests. The bilateral agreement between France and Britain is going
0:11:07 > 0:11:09to get more important and we will have to invest in those
0:11:09 > 0:11:14relationships with all-out European partners in a bilateral way more
0:11:14 > 0:11:21than we did as members. In exit negotiations, the French will try to
0:11:21 > 0:11:24negotiate to be hard element of their position through those
0:11:24 > 0:11:27negotiations with the attempt to undermine the position of the City
0:11:27 > 0:11:31of London.But should the British government have given that much
0:11:31 > 0:11:35money? That is a lot of money, 45 million pounds, and your colleagues,
0:11:35 > 0:11:42some of them, are calling it a stitch up.Since the Le Touquet
0:11:42 > 0:11:48agreement in 2003 its £150 million and that shows the size of the
0:11:48 > 0:11:54British interest here in maintaining the interest that it is. It's a
0:11:54 > 0:11:57sensible subsidy in maintaining the bilateral arrangement where we have
0:11:57 > 0:12:03a very clear interest in helping the French manage the challenge they
0:12:03 > 0:12:09have on that side of the channel.DD French see this as a win for France?
0:12:09 > 0:12:15It's in the middle, because the alternative to Britain giving money
0:12:15 > 0:12:20is the border changing side and the refugees going to go back and
0:12:20 > 0:12:25letting whatever take place in Dover, which is what President
0:12:25 > 0:12:31Macron said in the election two years ago. The other part of the
0:12:31 > 0:12:33equation is supposedly Britain accepting some refugees, which is
0:12:33 > 0:12:37something that has not been very forthcoming for the last 15 years.
0:12:37 > 0:12:45The government does accept some refugees but you mean more?Yes, a
0:12:45 > 0:12:48bit over a year ago, Britain said they would take at least 3000
0:12:48 > 0:12:54children under 18 with links to Britain. They have taken 200, less
0:12:54 > 0:13:00than one tenth.Does Britain have a responsibility to take certainly the
0:13:00 > 0:13:04number they said they would take, unaccompanied child migrants from
0:13:04 > 0:13:12the UK? -- into the UK?What we have to remember in taking child migrants
0:13:12 > 0:13:15altogether, if you set up the incentives for unaccompanied
0:13:15 > 0:13:19children to try to make the journey right across Europe to the United
0:13:19 > 0:13:24Kingdom from the areas they are in and out of the safe places and the
0:13:24 > 0:13:27states around the conflict area in Syria, you are inviting a huge
0:13:27 > 0:13:33amount of trouble and you are creating a situation where the
0:13:33 > 0:13:36amount of money we've got to look after these children can look after
0:13:36 > 0:13:41ten times as many safely in the nation is immediately adjacent to
0:13:41 > 0:13:44the conflict zone, keep them safe, get them ready and educated then to
0:13:44 > 0:13:50go back into Syria. Every child we accommodate here, that's ten
0:13:50 > 0:13:55children we are not looking after suitably there.But should the
0:13:55 > 0:14:00government take in more unaccompanied children from Calais?
0:14:00 > 0:14:08My view is that we shouldn't. This money should go towards managing the
0:14:08 > 0:14:12Calais problem. This is a European Union problem about the management
0:14:12 > 0:14:17of migration across the European Union.Isn't that true, that this is
0:14:17 > 0:14:21about the European Union and that actually Angela Merkel with her open
0:14:21 > 0:14:26door policy provided one of the incentives, rather than the British
0:14:26 > 0:14:30government taking more?There is no doubt that there is some truth in
0:14:30 > 0:14:35here but because of the issue is that Syria is in trouble, Libya is
0:14:35 > 0:14:38in chaos and Calais has been a magnet for years and years and years
0:14:38 > 0:14:41for people who want to come to Britain. To put things in
0:14:41 > 0:14:49perspective, the EU has 700,000 migrant refugees last year, 40,000
0:14:49 > 0:14:55here in Britain. 5%. So although Calais is impressive because that's
0:14:55 > 0:15:00one place where you can cross, so you see it, the truth is it's a tiny
0:15:00 > 0:15:05number compared to the overall thing. So some sharing of
0:15:05 > 0:15:07responsibility by Britain would be welcome, having said that, I think
0:15:07 > 0:15:15it's a sensible agreement to keep the border on that side.No, of
0:15:15 > 0:15:20course, but is Britain shirking its responsibility?We can be very proud
0:15:20 > 0:15:23of the contribution we are making to the support of the rescuing of these
0:15:23 > 0:15:27families and children coming out of these areas with the massive amount
0:15:27 > 0:15:30of support we are putting into countries like Jordan and Lebanon
0:15:30 > 0:15:34immediately around the conflict zone. And that's where the support
0:15:34 > 0:15:38ought to go. Frankly, stealing the best and brightest of these people
0:15:38 > 0:15:45out of these countries, an element of which German policy was based on
0:15:45 > 0:15:49meeting their demographic challenge, doesn't actually do the future of
0:15:49 > 0:15:55Syria and those countries any favours whatsoever.
0:15:55 > 0:16:01How much of a bone of contention is between France and Britain? Crispin
0:16:01 > 0:16:07Blunt says the responsibility is to provide a haven outside but close to
0:16:07 > 0:16:11the countries they fled in Jordan and Lebanon.President Macron wants
0:16:11 > 0:16:14a solution to this problem and he does not want Calais returning to
0:16:14 > 0:16:18the Jungle situation and he thinks has the stronger hand because
0:16:18 > 0:16:22Britain is in the situation where it is needed because of the Brexit
0:16:22 > 0:16:27context. So he has the stronger hands to play.Is this a microcosm
0:16:27 > 0:16:31of what will happen in the Brexit negotiations? Britain pays a bit of
0:16:31 > 0:16:38money to get access of favourable terms.We need to look at the
0:16:38 > 0:16:41British relationship and the Brexit negotiations. Within the context of
0:16:41 > 0:16:46the future and what is going to come through this. The bilateral
0:16:46 > 0:16:49relationship between France and Britain will get more important to
0:16:49 > 0:16:53both countries posed Brexit and we need to invest in that, as France
0:16:53 > 0:16:58needs to.You would not pay more money to keep their relationship?So
0:16:58 > 0:17:06the Calais issue, reinforcing the treaty and making sure we understand
0:17:06 > 0:17:12the difficulties, that is a sensible part of the relationship between
0:17:12 > 0:17:18France and the UK. We have to get through the Brexit process and Paris
0:17:18 > 0:17:22and other European cities will compete for businesses in London and
0:17:22 > 0:17:26we must expect that. Already, there is an understanding that they are
0:17:26 > 0:17:31not going to deprive London of being Europe's pre-eminent financial
0:17:31 > 0:17:37centre. And reality will strike home. About exactly where the
0:17:37 > 0:17:41balance of this relationship will sit posed Brexit.Should more money
0:17:41 > 0:17:46be paid to France to repair the port of Calais and the economy that has
0:17:46 > 0:17:52been damaged as a result of the Jungle?What I can save the deal
0:17:52 > 0:17:57that may be announced today, which appears to be about the £44 million
0:17:57 > 0:18:01going towards more investment in the immigration infrastructure around
0:18:01 > 0:18:07Calais, that seems the right mark as far as I'm concerned. The UK
0:18:07 > 0:18:11Government has got that right. M on -- and taking on the responsibility
0:18:11 > 0:18:17for the Calais economy has to be a matter for the French government,
0:18:17 > 0:18:22but that is significantly supported by British tourism going into Calais
0:18:22 > 0:18:25and the more secure the relationship around Calais, the more confident
0:18:25 > 0:18:29people will have in going and enjoying time in Calais.But the
0:18:29 > 0:18:34upper hand hand in the Brexit negotiations? If you see Emmanuel
0:18:34 > 0:18:41Macron is the centre while Germany is getting its government together.
0:18:41 > 0:18:44He will not negotiate it bilaterally. I agree, it will go
0:18:44 > 0:18:51through Europe. So far, it has helped the EU to have the upper hand
0:18:51 > 0:18:56and I think it will keep going that way. France is pretty tough on the
0:18:56 > 0:19:01EU negotiations, but Germany is as well. The two might be slightly
0:19:01 > 0:19:05different, but really, the lines are exactly the same.Let's talk about
0:19:05 > 0:19:10the military collaboration. The Prime Minister is sending chin-ups
0:19:10 > 0:19:14to Western Africa indicating that she is warming to this idea of
0:19:14 > 0:19:17joining with Emmanuel Macron to clamp down on terrorism and
0:19:17 > 0:19:22fundamentalism that. Do you support greater military coordination?Yes,
0:19:22 > 0:19:27the UK and France similar powers globally and increasingly, we will
0:19:27 > 0:19:31find we are unable to provide the capabilities across all of the
0:19:31 > 0:19:34military spectrums and the French plane may have a shortage in
0:19:34 > 0:19:39strategic lift and helicopter capacity we are offering them will
0:19:39 > 0:19:43be immensely helpful.It might allay fears British defence companies who
0:19:43 > 0:19:47fear they may be left out after Brexit.Yes, they want to know we
0:19:47 > 0:19:52continue to be a military power and power is what we have in common with
0:19:52 > 0:19:59France. And the other thing, this is one close relationship Brexiteers
0:19:59 > 0:20:02will not mind and if anything, they're glad Britain is not part of
0:20:02 > 0:20:07any European army. That is something the motion of a bilateral defence
0:20:07 > 0:20:11relationship, I think they can live with that, even if the rest of the
0:20:11 > 0:20:15headlines this morning will make them recoil, the motion of Britain
0:20:15 > 0:20:18after Brexit handing over 45 million to the French and still under
0:20:18 > 0:20:23pressure to receive migrants. I just want to challenge Crispin, we have a
0:20:23 > 0:20:27good record and we should be proud of it. Many of these child migrants
0:20:27 > 0:20:32are refugees from Syria and war zones. We did not even fulfil our
0:20:32 > 0:20:37obligation to take 3,000, which was really a tiny number and in the end
0:20:37 > 0:20:43it was 300. That does not make me feel it is a huge factor to be proud
0:20:43 > 0:20:48of.That is 30,000 more than they are looking after in Jordan and
0:20:48 > 0:20:53Lebanon.If you decide there is a finite...If you think we have
0:20:53 > 0:20:59infinite resources.You could do more for those 3,000 children.We're
0:20:59 > 0:21:03not in the same place. We always give substantial help and sustaining
0:21:03 > 0:21:08support for the international develop and budget is the challenge.
0:21:08 > 0:21:12The comment at the time said council said they could not take any more
0:21:12 > 0:21:15child migrants and that was proven not to be the case -- the
0:21:15 > 0:21:20Government. A number of councils were still prepared to take more
0:21:20 > 0:21:24child migrants unaccompanied across Europe.Presumably, that is
0:21:24 > 0:21:27predicated on the fact they were going to get central government
0:21:27 > 0:21:33support. Taking children into care is very expensive.Migrants is not
0:21:33 > 0:21:37the right word here. You have to do it properly and look after them
0:21:37 > 0:21:45properly.Finally, the A&E, is this an example of the largest -- the
0:21:45 > 0:21:50largesse of the French President in a charm offensive?A reminder we had
0:21:50 > 0:21:55been fighting each other for a long time!We have not forgotten!It is
0:21:55 > 0:22:00good if transporting the tapestry is possible and I'm sure it will be and
0:22:00 > 0:22:03it is great to see it coming years. It is very good and we have to
0:22:03 > 0:22:08remember there is a quid pro quo as we have now got the French committed
0:22:08 > 0:22:13very much to a Nato operation and Hodge troops in support of the work
0:22:13 > 0:22:16we are doing in Estonia and that is all to the good.Thank you.
0:22:16 > 0:22:19Later in the programme, I'll be speaking to Alexandre Holroyd who's
0:22:19 > 0:22:20an MP in President Macron's En Marche!
0:22:20 > 0:22:21party.
0:22:21 > 0:22:23And for more reporting and analysis of Brexit,
0:22:23 > 0:22:25check out the BBC News website.
0:22:25 > 0:22:29That's bbc.co.uk/brexit.
0:22:29 > 0:22:31Donald Trump's decision to hold back half of a $125 million aid
0:22:31 > 0:22:38instalment to Palestine has angered many in the Middle East
0:22:38 > 0:22:41and at the United Nations, with one former UN Humanitarian Chief
0:22:41 > 0:22:42claiming the move will have, "devastating consequences
0:22:42 > 0:22:48for vulnerable Palestinian refugees across the Middle East".
0:22:48 > 0:22:50So why has he done it?
0:22:50 > 0:22:52Well, at the beginning of the month, President Trump took
0:22:52 > 0:22:56to Twitter to complain...
0:22:56 > 0:22:59"We pay the Palestinians hundreds of millions of dollars a year
0:22:59 > 0:23:06and get no appreciation or respect."
0:23:06 > 0:23:11Mr Trump went on to say: "With the Palestinians no longer
0:23:11 > 0:23:13willing to talk peace, why should we make any of these
0:23:13 > 0:23:14massive future payments to them?"
0:23:14 > 0:23:16Speaking earlier this week, US State Department spokesman
0:23:16 > 0:23:18Heather Nauert called for more countries to give
0:23:18 > 0:23:23money to Palestine.
0:23:23 > 0:23:29This is not aimed at punishing anyone. The United States government
0:23:29 > 0:23:32and the Trump administration believed that there should be more
0:23:32 > 0:23:36so-called burden sharing to go around. United States has been in
0:23:36 > 0:23:42the past largest single donor. We would like other countries, other
0:23:42 > 0:23:45countries that criticise the United States for what they believe to be
0:23:45 > 0:23:48our position regarding the Palestinians, other countries that
0:23:48 > 0:23:52have criticised us to step forward and actually help to do more.
0:23:52 > 0:23:54I'm joined by James Sorene, who's the Chief Executive
0:23:54 > 0:24:01of the Israeli campaign group Bicom.
0:24:01 > 0:24:05James, it is not considered a punishment by the White House and
0:24:05 > 0:24:09Donald Trump, but what else can it be if they are restricting $65
0:24:09 > 0:24:13million that would have gone to Palestinian relief?This week, they
0:24:13 > 0:24:19said they wanted to see reforms of the way it operates and this has
0:24:19 > 0:24:24been kicked around US politics for a long time, the US is the largest
0:24:24 > 0:24:32donor. And it is a puzzling organisation. The United Nations
0:24:32 > 0:24:38relief and Works agency. It is the only agency in the world exclusively
0:24:38 > 0:24:43for one group of refugees whereas UN agency deals with refugees around
0:24:43 > 0:24:51the world and trying to resettle and rehabilitate. The prime sole purpose
0:24:51 > 0:24:56of UNRA is to perpetuate a refugee problem, it is the only refugee
0:24:56 > 0:24:58organisation that allows you to inherit refugee status as a
0:24:58 > 0:25:05hereditary title.Is that what it is set up to do, to perpetuate a
0:25:05 > 0:25:12refugee problem in the Palestinian territories?No, it is true it it is
0:25:12 > 0:25:15this specifically for Palestinians and it has gone on for 70 years, but
0:25:15 > 0:25:19is not its fault as an agency, it is because the problem has not been
0:25:19 > 0:25:23addressed. In the years and those problems -- those people still are
0:25:23 > 0:25:27refugees wherever they are. The persistence of the problem is the
0:25:27 > 0:25:30issue rather than this persistence of the agency which hopes to
0:25:30 > 0:25:34alleviate the Palestinian issue, well, at least deal with those
0:25:34 > 0:25:40people.$65 million is a lot of money and it does seem when you read
0:25:40 > 0:25:43the messages from Donald Trump that it is because he is not appreciated
0:25:43 > 0:25:47enough, is that a big enough justification to withholding this
0:25:47 > 0:25:52money?They have given $60 million and they will freeze the other 65
0:25:52 > 0:25:57until they see changes. It is either that Trump wants to punish the
0:25:57 > 0:26:00Palestinian Authority, or he wants reform, or he wants his America
0:26:00 > 0:26:05first bit and say, why should we be the biggest donors when a lot of
0:26:05 > 0:26:09very Richmond list countries are giving very little, almost nothing?
0:26:09 > 0:26:13And there is a real issue that you should be giving the money to those
0:26:13 > 0:26:15with the greatest need. You were talking about Syrian refugees, we
0:26:15 > 0:26:19need to make sure British taxpayers' money goes to those refugees and
0:26:19 > 0:26:25there are questions about why a Jordanian citizen who is a great
0:26:25 > 0:26:29grandson of a Palestinian refugee, who is a Jordanian citizen receiving
0:26:29 > 0:26:34Jordanian services, why should the British taxpayer pay for the health
0:26:34 > 0:26:37and education?Very real questions. Let's talk about the money Donald
0:26:37 > 0:26:41Trump has withheld. It is true they are the biggest donor to the
0:26:41 > 0:26:44Palestinians and in 2016, they gave more than double what the EU
0:26:44 > 0:26:48contributed so why should the US carried out financial burden?I
0:26:48 > 0:26:52would have no problem with other people giving to this agency,
0:26:52 > 0:26:55especially the rich Gulf states but the United States is often the
0:26:55 > 0:27:00largest single donor to a range of UN bodies and if you have an issue
0:27:00 > 0:27:03with that, reform it and deal with those agencies, do not make victims
0:27:03 > 0:27:06of the poorest people in this situation have nothing to do with
0:27:06 > 0:27:10it. If there is a lack of progress in the peace process, that is not
0:27:10 > 0:27:14the fault of a child who needs a school and Doctor in Gaza, you're
0:27:14 > 0:27:19making the suffering of those people much worse. Even if you do not have
0:27:19 > 0:27:21a moral problem with that, I don't own some politically is obviously
0:27:21 > 0:27:25the risk is it will radicalise opinion in those camps, the same
0:27:25 > 0:27:34places where the first and second problems issued from. You are
0:27:34 > 0:27:38guaranteeing more hardship and more suffering.To accept that might be
0:27:38 > 0:27:43the risk?Those are real issues, but it is very bloated as an
0:27:43 > 0:27:46organisation with over 30,000 staff, more than a billion in its budget
0:27:46 > 0:27:51and it does not just provide health and education. It supports
0:27:51 > 0:27:53micro-finance and other training which there are real issues, why
0:27:53 > 0:27:58does it still do them? You need to put the money at those with the
0:27:58 > 0:28:02greatest need. Jonathan Wright erases those points, though.Do you
0:28:02 > 0:28:06agree Palestinians will suffer as a result of this money being held?At
0:28:06 > 0:28:10the money -- at the moment, they have given the 60 million and other
0:28:10 > 0:28:12countries potentially will step up to the plate and that is what the US
0:28:12 > 0:28:18once, it is not in their interest to see suffering and the Israelis would
0:28:18 > 0:28:23be concerned if there was to be radicalisation and suffering.The
0:28:23 > 0:28:27Israelis understood she needed this agency. From their self-interest,
0:28:27 > 0:28:30just as you need the Palestinian Authority. To maintain life in those
0:28:30 > 0:28:35places.Although Benjamin Netanyahu has said it needs reform. What sort
0:28:35 > 0:28:41of reforms are they talking about? You could make structural reforms, I
0:28:41 > 0:28:44did not know the figure of 30,000 and there is overstepping, you do
0:28:44 > 0:28:50not deal with that by choking off funding a stroke. Donald Trump's
0:28:50 > 0:28:54peak that he issued his Jerusalem Director of recognising Jerusalem as
0:28:54 > 0:29:01the capital of Israel, which had no previous -- which in no US
0:29:01 > 0:29:04government in 70 years they had ever done, and he is hurting. Outside the
0:29:04 > 0:29:09Middle East, he uses for an assistance as a political if he is
0:29:09 > 0:29:12increasing the pressure like he would have done in Manhattan
0:29:12 > 0:29:15negotiating real estate deals. He wants to squeeze his opponent, but
0:29:15 > 0:29:19real people suffer and it is no way to conduct international policy.Is
0:29:19 > 0:29:23it going to make it more difficult for the US to be any kind of
0:29:23 > 0:29:27independent arbitrator if there were peace talks to be revived?Trump is
0:29:27 > 0:29:31clearly making clear his strategy. He is trying to rattle the cage and
0:29:31 > 0:29:40he is trying to shake up these kind of decades long firmament in the
0:29:40 > 0:29:43Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Shake them around. There is not a peace
0:29:43 > 0:29:45process at the moment, the Palestinians are not talking to the
0:29:45 > 0:29:50US. But from the US perspective, they had been taking this can down
0:29:50 > 0:29:57the road for decades. UNRRA and the Palestinian refugees, Jerusalem, and
0:29:57 > 0:30:01for those who are pro-Islam and for those who want to face reality, it
0:30:01 > 0:30:05is part of letting Trump be Trump and shake things up which they
0:30:05 > 0:30:08believe might force for instance the Palestinian Authority "There is a
0:30:08 > 0:30:12big question, the Americans have been pushing the Palestinian
0:30:12 > 0:30:16Authority to stop giving support to terrorists in prisons and their
0:30:16 > 0:30:18families, Dreamweaver and $50 million the Palestinian Authority
0:30:18 > 0:30:22gives to them, maybe he is saying, show your priorities. If you're
0:30:22 > 0:30:25worried about children and vaccinations and schools, redirect
0:30:25 > 0:30:32that money.Thank you for coming in.
0:30:32 > 0:30:34When Labour attack the Government over the current winter
0:30:34 > 0:30:36crisis affecting the NHS, Theresa May fires back
0:30:36 > 0:30:39that the situations is, she claims, a lot worse in Wales under Labour.
0:30:39 > 0:30:40But is this fair?
0:30:40 > 0:30:43This morning, the latest Welsh A&E figures came out and they show that
0:30:43 > 0:30:45just under 85% of patients spent less than four hours
0:30:45 > 0:30:50in emergency care.
0:30:50 > 0:30:51The target is 95%.
0:30:51 > 0:30:54What's more, in a letter to First Minister Carwyn Jones,
0:30:54 > 0:30:56emergency hospital consultants have claimed safety is being compromised
0:30:56 > 0:30:57"to an unacceptable degree".
0:30:57 > 0:30:59Let's get more from this with Tomos Morgan, who's
0:30:59 > 0:31:07in Morriston Hospital, in Swansea.
0:31:10 > 0:31:13Welcome to the programme. What are the latest statistics tell us about
0:31:13 > 0:31:20A&E in Wales?Well, they tell us that the situation in December just
0:31:20 > 0:31:27gone is the worst winter holiday period on record since records began
0:31:27 > 0:31:33in 2009. Just under 80% of patients being seen within the four-hour time
0:31:33 > 0:31:40frame. Many more patients not being seen within 12 hours. The worst
0:31:40 > 0:31:44government target for 12 hours -- the Welsh government target for 12
0:31:44 > 0:31:48hours is actually that nobody should wait that long to be seen but as I
0:31:48 > 0:31:54say, more people are having to wait for that period. Where I am now,
0:31:54 > 0:31:58Morriston is the worst performing hospital in A&E for the four-hour
0:31:58 > 0:32:02period. 60% of patients being seen within that time frame and I spoke
0:32:02 > 0:32:06to the medical director earlier run and one of the big issues that has
0:32:06 > 0:32:12been over this winter period, pressure period, has been the influx
0:32:12 > 0:32:15of people coming in with blue related symptoms and a possible
0:32:15 > 0:32:20suggestion that the situation could worsen before it gets better.And
0:32:20 > 0:32:23doctors so concerned they have written an open letter to the First
0:32:23 > 0:32:30Minister today. What have they said? I have expressed that their view is
0:32:30 > 0:32:35that the situation in Wales is that a critical point. One of the
0:32:35 > 0:32:40signatories in particular said it was at a crisis in Wales,
0:32:40 > 0:32:46chronically under resourced and underfunded, repairing to Welsh NHS
0:32:46 > 0:32:50and social care in Wales. The letter calls for an increase in social care
0:32:50 > 0:32:57funding, a review of acute have -- acute-care hospital beds, a change
0:32:57 > 0:33:01in the way Beevor ours is measured and prioritisation to recruitment
0:33:01 > 0:33:06and retention of staff. The doctors who have signed that latter have
0:33:06 > 0:33:11felt strongly enough to apologise themselves for being able to provide
0:33:11 > 0:33:13a safe and efficient emergency service that they would like to
0:33:13 > 0:33:17provide. The Welsh government have said in response to the figures
0:33:17 > 0:33:21today and to the letter that they have increased funding over the
0:33:21 > 0:33:25winter period to 60 million to help deal with the winter pressures and
0:33:25 > 0:33:30have also said that plans have been in place but the expectation demand
0:33:30 > 0:33:36has been higher than expected. Listening to that was born Gethin,
0:33:36 > 0:33:39the health and social services Secretary in the Welsh government.
0:33:39 > 0:33:43Welcome to the daily politics. That letter from those consultants said
0:33:43 > 0:33:48that health was compromised to an unacceptable degree in Wales, the
0:33:48 > 0:33:52worst it's ever been. How does it feel to be the worst health Minister
0:33:52 > 0:33:57in the UK running the worst national health service, according to your
0:33:57 > 0:34:00own consultants?I don't think that's what they are saying at all,
0:34:00 > 0:34:04with respect. They are talking about the pressures they face, the
0:34:04 > 0:34:09pressures our patients face, going through the health system. There is
0:34:09 > 0:34:13no cause for celebration that we are under so much pressure. This has
0:34:13 > 0:34:17been a record December in the sense that we have never had so many
0:34:17 > 0:34:20people come to our emergency departments before, we have never
0:34:20 > 0:34:25seen so many people aged 85 and over. We have also never seen,
0:34:25 > 0:34:30treated and discharged so many people before within four hours. It
0:34:30 > 0:34:33shows the number of people coming through the system. What is
0:34:33 > 0:34:36interesting in the letter from the emergency department consultant is
0:34:36 > 0:34:40that they recognise that you have to see health and social care together,
0:34:40 > 0:34:45which is why their best callers for more money into social care.Will
0:34:45 > 0:34:50you give more money in social care spending?We have increased social
0:34:50 > 0:34:56care spending by 5:4%...But they have said it is not enough. They say
0:34:56 > 0:35:01care is being compromised and they need more resources.We have
0:35:01 > 0:35:05invested even more in the budget passed this week. At the government,
0:35:05 > 0:35:10we spent over half our resources on health and social care, a rate of
0:35:10 > 0:35:14spending rising faster than any other UK nation. This isn't a lack
0:35:14 > 0:35:18of commitment from the Welsh government, it is a lack of overall
0:35:18 > 0:35:22resource and that the challenge that we all face in the United Kingdom.
0:35:22 > 0:35:28But consultants in Wales have taken this unprecedented step of writing
0:35:28 > 0:35:32this letter and they say that patient safety is being compromised.
0:35:32 > 0:35:39What do you say to the 3740 patients he waited more than 12 hours in A&E
0:35:39 > 0:35:44before they were admitted or discharged when the target time is
0:35:44 > 0:35:48four hours? You are catastrophically missing your target.There is a real
0:35:48 > 0:35:53challenge about the number of people in our system and I don't celebrate
0:35:53 > 0:35:56the fact some people are waiting far too long. The openness about what
0:35:56 > 0:36:00we're doing as we have recognised the pressure, planned for winter, we
0:36:00 > 0:36:11have extra beds in our system, -- 400 extra beds in our system, and we
0:36:11 > 0:36:15have put £400 million upfront and then we realised we must do more, so
0:36:15 > 0:36:22put £10 million extra in in January. We also pressure on GPs as well,
0:36:22 > 0:36:27there -- we also released pressure on GPs as well, their part in the
0:36:27 > 0:36:33system.How bad does the crisis had to be...I am more than happy to
0:36:33 > 0:36:38meet them and discuss the details in their letter and discuss honestly
0:36:38 > 0:36:45what we can do.But you haven't successfully managed the health
0:36:45 > 0:36:49service, have you, taking into account that you have, as you said,
0:36:49 > 0:36:53experienced a high number of patients coming through the doors
0:36:53 > 0:36:57Costa how bad does the crisis have to be in the Welsh NHS before
0:36:57 > 0:37:00ministers like yourself actually take response ability and say, it's
0:37:00 > 0:37:07our fault?I don't shy away from my responsibility for the health and
0:37:07 > 0:37:14social care system at all. It's also a recognition of the unprecedented
0:37:14 > 0:37:17pressures. We planned for more activity in the winter but when you
0:37:17 > 0:37:24have more than 50% increase in New Year's Eve in a life-threatening
0:37:24 > 0:37:29calls, with respect, you can't plan for those spikes in demand. Despite
0:37:29 > 0:37:33that, we continue to meet our target for red ambulance calls, which shows
0:37:33 > 0:37:38that some parts of our system are holding up. The overall pressure is
0:37:38 > 0:37:42significant. If we want to be able to deal with what the consultants
0:37:42 > 0:37:45called for, with more capacity in our health and social care system,
0:37:45 > 0:37:50that requires more resources. If we stick with the same budget and the
0:37:50 > 0:37:56same austerity coming down from Westminster, that means significant
0:37:56 > 0:37:59cuts in other public services which will load more pressure into our
0:37:59 > 0:38:01social care and health system.You have been running the health service
0:38:01 > 0:38:06for a number of years. Is it time for you to apologise to patients in
0:38:06 > 0:38:10Wales for failing to meet these critical targets for A&E.I
0:38:10 > 0:38:14recognise that we need to do better and I have never shied away from
0:38:14 > 0:38:19saying that. I apologise to patients who have had their care affected and
0:38:19 > 0:38:25to those who don't have the dignity in care that we would all like to
0:38:25 > 0:38:29see. These problems are not unique to Wales. What we have to day within
0:38:29 > 0:38:32Wales is take response ability for our part of the system, the choices
0:38:32 > 0:38:37we make about money with the put into the system, the decisions we
0:38:37 > 0:38:43have made about trying to keep people out of hospital and helping
0:38:43 > 0:38:50more people to get out. We need to do more to get people out of
0:38:50 > 0:38:55hospital to wear the right place for their care and treatment is no
0:38:55 > 0:38:58longer a hospital bed. That is a focus for us here in Wales.Thank
0:38:58 > 0:39:02you very much.
0:39:02 > 0:39:05Earlier this week, a deal was struck between the Bangladesh and Myanmar
0:39:05 > 0:39:07governments to repatriate hundreds of thousands of Rohingya
0:39:07 > 0:39:09who fled Myanmar following a crackdown by the military.
0:39:09 > 0:39:12Whilst both countries have pledged the return will be voluntary,
0:39:12 > 0:39:14aid agencies have expressed fears for the safety of those
0:39:14 > 0:39:15who leave the camps.
0:39:15 > 0:39:17Here's Elizabeth Glinka, with more.
0:39:17 > 0:39:24The Rohingya are a Muslim minority in a country defined by its Buddhist
0:39:24 > 0:39:29faith. Until last year, there were 1.3 million Muslims living in
0:39:29 > 0:39:32wrecking state, a coastal region in the west of mayhem. The Rohingya
0:39:32 > 0:39:44have their own language and culture, many of them descendants from what
0:39:44 > 0:39:50was then British run India to work on their land in the 19th century.
0:39:50 > 0:39:58That led to growing tensions with local Buddhists in the 20th century,
0:39:58 > 0:40:04fearing their country was under threat. When the military jumps to
0:40:04 > 0:40:10control, the rights of the Muslim population were eroded. They are not
0:40:10 > 0:40:17recognised as citizens of man Mark and I habitually framed as outsiders
0:40:17 > 0:40:27and... In 2012, more than 100,000 Rohingya Muslims were rounded up and
0:40:27 > 0:40:31putting to internment camps. The latest exodus began in August last
0:40:31 > 0:40:36year when they were attacked by police. The government retaliated
0:40:36 > 0:40:47with what they called... Medecins Sans Frontieres said that in the
0:40:47 > 0:40:52months after the clearances, nearly 7000 people including children were
0:40:52 > 0:40:55killed. Amnesty International reported widespread sexual violence
0:40:55 > 0:40:59by the military against Rohingya women and girls, while the military
0:40:59 > 0:41:06-- Irma government claimed the campaign was at the end, refugees
0:41:06 > 0:41:10continued to flee over the border into Bangladesh where 700,000
0:41:10 > 0:41:15Rohingya now live in the world's largest refugee camp. The United
0:41:15 > 0:41:17Nations describes the military campaign as a textbook example of
0:41:17 > 0:41:28ethnic cleansing. With me now is Labour MP
0:41:28 > 0:41:32With me now is Labour MP
0:41:32 > 0:41:33MP Rosina Alin Khan,
0:41:33 > 0:41:35who's visited the refugee camps in Bangladesh.
0:41:35 > 0:41:43I went there as a medical doctor, in that capacity, and so that I could
0:41:43 > 0:41:49speak about it when I came back.I was shocked. I met people who had
0:41:49 > 0:41:55seen their husbands mutilated, who themselves had been gang raped, who
0:41:55 > 0:41:59had had their own babies thrown onto fires and who had had to choose
0:41:59 > 0:42:04whether they try to save their babies or escape with the children
0:42:04 > 0:42:11they had.Is this ethnic cleansing in your mind?No, I am calling this
0:42:11 > 0:42:16a genocide. Ethnic cleansing isn't even a crime under humanitarian law
0:42:16 > 0:42:20and quite frankly what I have seen is an atrocity and it is genocide.
0:42:20 > 0:42:26How long were you there for?I was there for a total of five days. It
0:42:26 > 0:42:33was a fact -- a packed trip. I slept for about two hours in total, I
0:42:33 > 0:42:35worked in the clinics, I went throughout the camps with Christian
0:42:35 > 0:42:39Aid to see what they were doing and I met people fleeing over the
0:42:39 > 0:42:45border.The pictures are shocking when you look at them fleeing over
0:42:45 > 0:42:51into Bangladesh, but when you spoke to survivors, were they expressing
0:42:51 > 0:42:56any interest in returning to Myanmar?They were saying they would
0:42:56 > 0:43:00only be willing to return to their homeland if they could be guaranteed
0:43:00 > 0:43:05security. They fled with the clothes on their back. They left everything
0:43:05 > 0:43:09and they are frightened to death of going back because they know, as I
0:43:09 > 0:43:14do, that if they were to be forcibly repatriated, they would be going
0:43:14 > 0:43:18back to their deaths.What do you think of the plans to repatriate
0:43:18 > 0:43:25Rohingya into Myanmar?What we are hearing that is that if you tell
0:43:25 > 0:43:28people who have been pushed out that the solution is to go back and face
0:43:28 > 0:43:31their killers and torturers and tormentors, that doesn't feel like
0:43:31 > 0:43:35any kind of solution at all. There would have to be some kind of
0:43:35 > 0:43:39radical change in that country for them to feel safe to go back to the
0:43:39 > 0:43:45very place where we have been hearing families were burned to
0:43:45 > 0:43:48death, raped and brutalised. This is being put out a some kind of
0:43:48 > 0:43:52solution and I'm sure to the people concerned it doesn't feel like that
0:43:52 > 0:43:55at all.But is it sustainable for them to stand Bangladesh which is
0:43:55 > 0:44:01already struggling?Bangladesh has opened its borders and it's hard but
0:44:01 > 0:44:0522% about a day she's already live below the poverty line. Our
0:44:05 > 0:44:09government are doing a great job of supporting the Bangladeshis with
0:44:09 > 0:44:15financial resources, but actually we need to make sure that we target
0:44:15 > 0:44:19Myanmar and we call it out and that people who have been responsible for
0:44:19 > 0:44:24these heinous crimes are taken to the International Criminal Court. I
0:44:24 > 0:44:27have met with Foreign Office officials who have explained to me
0:44:27 > 0:44:33how deeply complex it is on the ground. Look, Bangladesh do need
0:44:33 > 0:44:37support, that is given. But we cannot, absolutely cannot send
0:44:37 > 0:44:41people back to their deaths.What has been the reception from the
0:44:41 > 0:44:44Foreign Office about this mounting pressure you feel should be put on
0:44:44 > 0:44:50Myanmar?I have been met with a variety of responses. I was very
0:44:50 > 0:44:54disappointed that openly in a debate I asked Boris Johnson to meet with
0:44:54 > 0:44:58me and he said he was too busy and I should write him a letter. I wrote
0:44:58 > 0:45:02him a letter which he didn't even respond to. I have met with Minister
0:45:02 > 0:45:06Field who was helpful, but the Foreign Office officials I have
0:45:06 > 0:45:08spoken to are working incredibly hard but do explain how complex it
0:45:08 > 0:45:17is on the ground. Quite frankly, our government are not doing enough at
0:45:17 > 0:45:19this point.What could they do? Isn't this an international
0:45:19 > 0:45:24response, not the UK Government on their own?
0:45:24 > 0:45:28Aung San Suu Kyi does have an affinity with Britain and the
0:45:28 > 0:45:31condemnation you are looking for from the British Government for
0:45:31 > 0:45:34Herbie the de facto leader of this country who has not done anything,
0:45:34 > 0:45:38it seems, to stop this when it was happening and to put pressure on
0:45:38 > 0:45:42her, I think Britain does have leverage here. In most places, it
0:45:42 > 0:45:47has to be admitted a voice from Britain does not cut but not eyes,
0:45:47 > 0:45:50but in this particular case, because of her links to this country, it
0:45:50 > 0:45:54would mean something.But I hear what you say. You going to go back?
0:45:54 > 0:46:01Yes.When? I am working out where to go because I want an objective to
0:46:01 > 0:46:04meet. So I am working out the correct time, but I want to go back
0:46:04 > 0:46:08in the next couple of months because I think it is really important we
0:46:08 > 0:46:13keep the pressure up. And the British public have a track record
0:46:13 > 0:46:17of being kind, generous, compassionate and brave. And we need
0:46:17 > 0:46:20to stand collectively, cross-party on this. I'd call this out for what
0:46:20 > 0:46:26it is. If we are allowing this to happen, were next in the world? We
0:46:26 > 0:46:30need to stand up and proudly say, as the British community, that this is
0:46:30 > 0:46:34wrong.Q.Thank you.
0:46:34 > 0:46:35Who would be an MP?
0:46:35 > 0:46:37Not many of us, it seems.
0:46:37 > 0:46:39New research - from the University of Bath -
0:46:39 > 0:46:41has found that just one in ten people would ever think
0:46:41 > 0:46:44about becoming an MP, and those who do are more likely
0:46:44 > 0:46:48to be male, highly educated and live in the South of England.
0:46:48 > 0:46:51They found that: Just over 14% of men have considered standing.
0:46:51 > 0:46:54Which is more than double the 6.5% of women who have thought about it.
0:46:54 > 0:46:56Roughly 14% of people classed as highly educated think
0:46:56 > 0:47:02of putting themselves forward.
0:47:02 > 0:47:07Compared to just under 5% with a low level of education.
0:47:07 > 0:47:09And the disparity in political ambition also shows up as one looks
0:47:09 > 0:47:13up and down the income ladder, with 23% of those who earn over
0:47:13 > 0:47:15£100,000 having thought about it, compared to only 9%
0:47:15 > 0:47:22who earn below £10,000.
0:47:22 > 0:47:25So, does it really matter who harbours dreams of elected office?
0:47:25 > 0:47:28I'm joined by Layla Moran and Gillian Keegan,
0:47:28 > 0:47:34both new MPs from 2017.
0:47:35 > 0:47:38Welcome to the programme. You were brave and decided you would put
0:47:38 > 0:47:42yourself forward, why?For me, it was about education. I am a teacher
0:47:42 > 0:47:46and my background and I got passionate about trying to change
0:47:46 > 0:47:50the education system. I realised to do that it is better to be in
0:47:50 > 0:47:54government and make that pays. And I chose a party, so I decided I wanted
0:47:54 > 0:47:58to be an MP and then compared policy to what would work and joined the
0:47:58 > 0:48:00Liberal Democrats.So you did not have a political affinity
0:48:00 > 0:48:08beforehand?Absolutely not. I had voted, and considered voting mainly
0:48:08 > 0:48:13Labour, my dad would kill me if I voted Tory! But I have not really
0:48:13 > 0:48:18had a strong party affiliations, it came later.That is interesting
0:48:18 > 0:48:21because there is usually a party affinity, have you always been a
0:48:21 > 0:48:26Conservative?Yes, unusually, I'd grew up in Knowsley in Merseyside
0:48:26 > 0:48:29and there were not many Conservatives so I really had to
0:48:29 > 0:48:33think about it. I would not describe myself as political, but come out
0:48:33 > 0:48:37with a different answer to those around you, you have had to think
0:48:37 > 0:48:40about it. I always voted Conservative and I never considered
0:48:40 > 0:48:45becoming an MP, I did it because somebody asked me to. Baroness Anne
0:48:45 > 0:48:49Jenkin, and I met her in the theatre in London in the interval. So
0:48:49 > 0:48:53beware, these people are everywhere! She did well in a short space of
0:48:53 > 0:48:57time to persuade you!She goes out looking for, the Conservative Party
0:48:57 > 0:49:00recognise they want to be more diverse and they deliberately look
0:49:00 > 0:49:05for people. For me, I have a working class background, I am from
0:49:05 > 0:49:08Liverpool comprehensive school and did an apparent ship at 16, normal
0:49:08 > 0:49:15jobs. And a Conservative. And she just randomly said, there is a
0:49:15 > 0:49:21campaign which is quite affected because quite often, women do need
0:49:21 > 0:49:27an extra push.What was the reaction from people around you?They cannot
0:49:27 > 0:49:31believe it's because I had gone on to have a successful business career
0:49:31 > 0:49:36and I think my parents are still shocked I have taken a successive --
0:49:36 > 0:49:39successful business career where everybody respected me to something
0:49:39 > 0:49:43where people think I am the enemy who is coming into it for self
0:49:43 > 0:49:47serving purposes and I am earning way times more than I ever could in
0:49:47 > 0:49:52any other profession. You do not get that well regarded. And that is
0:49:52 > 0:49:56possibly part of what puts people off.I was not that surprised by the
0:49:56 > 0:50:01figures. One in ten. Did it surprise you, did you think there were so
0:50:01 > 0:50:05many more people?No, I thought one in ten was a lot of people, where
0:50:05 > 0:50:11are they? And I would encourage them to consider it. Now I am in, and I
0:50:11 > 0:50:15still pinch myself, I really do. But I do believe that a lot of people
0:50:15 > 0:50:19will have the skills to do a really great job and it is very clear that
0:50:19 > 0:50:23when I look across the house, and I am sorry, it is older men who are
0:50:23 > 0:50:27white, still predominately, we need the other voices, it really makes a
0:50:27 > 0:50:31huge difference. To all those people thinking about doing it, do it,
0:50:31 > 0:50:35don't just think about it!So it is key to broaden further and much more
0:50:35 > 0:50:39swiftly the make-up of the house? Absolutely and every political party
0:50:39 > 0:50:44can do better, needs to do better. They celebrate that this is the most
0:50:44 > 0:50:47diverse Parliament ever, it is still nowhere near good enough. We need to
0:50:47 > 0:50:52go out and we need to ask people to do it. They need encouragement to
0:50:52 > 0:50:55realise, yes, you can. You have the skills, you will be great, come
0:50:55 > 0:51:00along and do it.What put you off? You said you were persuaded by Anne
0:51:00 > 0:51:05Jenkin, what might have put you off going for it?You have to put
0:51:05 > 0:51:09yourself through the ropes to get there. I stood in Merseyside where I
0:51:09 > 0:51:13am from, so going round the streets of Saint Helens with a blue rosette,
0:51:13 > 0:51:18you know whether you want to do it afterwards! It really does allow you
0:51:18 > 0:51:25to test... Resilience! Yes, and whether you are used to that,
0:51:25 > 0:51:28because people are quite abusive sometimes. But the majority are not,
0:51:28 > 0:51:35most people are apolitical and not that political. I would not know if
0:51:35 > 0:51:39they are floating voters in that area, but they certainly, they are
0:51:39 > 0:51:45not really, politics is not at the front of their minds.Has it been
0:51:45 > 0:51:47what you have expected?Interesting question. My seat was so marginal
0:51:47 > 0:51:54and so far of being one at the last election, Oxford West and Abingdon,
0:51:54 > 0:52:01we were 9,500 behind and I won by around 800, so very close. It has
0:52:01 > 0:52:05been extraordinary and it is so worth being here. You can raise big
0:52:05 > 0:52:09issues, you often saying things nobody else is saying and it can
0:52:09 > 0:52:12slowly move things in the right direction. So cynics who say there
0:52:12 > 0:52:17is no point in being here, I completely disagree, it is worth
0:52:17 > 0:52:22being here.2017 was a surprise election, and it has heralded in a
0:52:22 > 0:52:26different House of Commons which different elections do, but even
0:52:26 > 0:52:30more so because people rushed into standing for office.Yes, and not
0:52:30 > 0:52:34always with a happy outcome, we have two success stories here but
0:52:34 > 0:52:42candidates came in whom had not been vetted correctly like Jared O'Mara.
0:52:42 > 0:52:45Remarks also about vasectomy is which perhaps if he had gone round a
0:52:45 > 0:52:50couple of states like you did, he would not have done that! Your
0:52:50 > 0:52:53experience as a teacher is interesting, and we heard earlier
0:52:53 > 0:52:57from a former doctor and it is often people who feel frustrated and
0:52:57 > 0:53:03they've feel they need to get their weavers onto some big change and go
0:53:03 > 0:53:08into government.The Parliament. Finally, political heroes?Winston
0:53:08 > 0:53:14Churchill is mine.Mine is Shirley Williams, partly because as a woman,
0:53:14 > 0:53:17she had the steely determination and she was also kind and compassionate
0:53:17 > 0:53:21and she was able to marry the two and that is extraordinary.Thank you
0:53:21 > 0:53:24both.Thank you.
0:53:24 > 0:53:27Let's get more now on President Macron's visit to the UK.
0:53:27 > 0:53:30Speaking in Downing Street a year ago, before he became President,
0:53:30 > 0:53:31Mr Macron was very open about encouraging people
0:53:31 > 0:53:34to move to France.
0:53:34 > 0:53:40I reaffirm my willingness best to have direct execution of the Brexit.
0:53:40 > 0:53:45To defend French and European interests in that, in such an
0:53:45 > 0:53:49execution. In my programme, you will have a series of initiatives to get
0:53:49 > 0:53:53talented people in research in a lot of fields working here and coming to
0:53:53 > 0:53:57France. I was very happy to see that some academics and researchers
0:53:57 > 0:54:04because of the Brexit would consider the Konta France to work, and it
0:54:04 > 0:54:08will be part of my programme to be attractive for this type of people.
0:54:08 > 0:54:10President Macron one.
0:54:10 > 0:54:12Let's speak to Alexandre Holroyde, who's an MP
0:54:12 > 0:54:14for President Macron's En Marche! party.
0:54:14 > 0:54:19Welcome back, how successful has France been in attracting these
0:54:19 > 0:54:24businesses and people from London to Paris?It is not a question of
0:54:24 > 0:54:28attracting people from London to Paris. That is what he said. It is
0:54:28 > 0:54:32just attracting people to Paris. In the last eight months since the 18th
0:54:32 > 0:54:35of June when the majority came to power is profoundly reform our
0:54:35 > 0:54:42Labour markets, our tax system, the training programmes in France so
0:54:42 > 0:54:48that we can make France incredibly attends -- attractive to end -- when
0:54:48 > 0:54:54it anybody, investors in Hong Kong or the UK. I am sure President
0:54:54 > 0:54:59Macron would have said the same thing about New York.This is
0:54:59 > 0:55:01trained to your financial services, rightly or wrongly, from London,
0:55:01 > 0:55:07which has been seen as the main financial centre, while you been shy
0:55:07 > 0:55:12about it?I am not being shy, I am very open that we are trying to
0:55:12 > 0:55:15attract financial services and also companies and investments and
0:55:15 > 0:55:21research and students.As Brexit the opportunity for you to mount that
0:55:21 > 0:55:25campaign further, to take advantage of the situation with the
0:55:25 > 0:55:29negotiations with Britain?The real challenge is unrelated to Brexit, it
0:55:29 > 0:55:32is reforming and conducting through a really ambitious transformation
0:55:32 > 0:55:35programme in France. Who has a number of problems which have not
0:55:35 > 0:55:38been addressed in the last three decades and we are addressing one by
0:55:38 > 0:55:44one to make it as attractive as possible.Call me a cynic, many
0:55:44 > 0:55:47people do, but the A&E and generous offer from Emmanuel Macron, what
0:55:47 > 0:55:54does he want in return?It is not a question of return. We have an
0:55:54 > 0:55:58incredibly close relationship between France and the UK which is
0:55:58 > 0:56:02independent from the EU. It is an incredibly close relationship in
0:56:02 > 0:56:06defence and also in cultural exchanges. We have a great programme
0:56:06 > 0:56:10for future leaders which has been launched last year, we have an
0:56:10 > 0:56:13amazing amount of twinning between cities in France and the UK and
0:56:13 > 0:56:16these initiatives, we think they should be pushed further, so that is
0:56:16 > 0:56:19what we are doing and Bayeux Tapestry is part of cultural
0:56:19 > 0:56:25exchange because it is shared history.It is also part of Macron's
0:56:25 > 0:56:29method and he is very effective, to be tough with one hand, so with
0:56:29 > 0:56:33Trump, he gave him a hard handshake with one and with the other, he
0:56:33 > 0:56:38invites him for Bastille Day and has a visit in the way that Theresa May
0:56:38 > 0:56:41has not been able to and he does that effectively. He has been tough
0:56:41 > 0:56:44with Theresa May about Calais and getting wonderful headlines for this
0:56:44 > 0:56:50gift of the Bayeux Tapestry.It seems Macron is rather good at
0:56:50 > 0:56:54statehood, and he is rather young, but he is proving he knows how to
0:56:54 > 0:56:59get this good cup and bad cup game going and he has done it again with
0:56:59 > 0:57:02us and the Bayeux Tapestry.Why should Britain bond or pay for
0:57:02 > 0:57:07improvements to the economy in Calais which President Acra one
0:57:07 > 0:57:11thing is has been damaged by the migrant issue?The agreement which
0:57:11 > 0:57:18oversees the board it in Calais and the French border in Dover, it has
0:57:18 > 0:57:20been discussed and adapted over the years because the challenges have
0:57:20 > 0:57:26changed.But this is over and above the agreement, this was to go
0:57:26 > 0:57:31towards funding.This is a shared challenge, a shared problem that we
0:57:31 > 0:57:36have together that we have a border on sides. If you think of networks
0:57:36 > 0:57:42of criminals who are using this crisis the traffic people over the
0:57:42 > 0:57:46Channel, we need both countries to work hand-in-hand. That involves
0:57:46 > 0:57:49commitment from both countries security wise and on both sides of
0:57:49 > 0:57:52the Channel.What would you like Stallone to you as a gift in return
0:57:52 > 0:57:57for the Bayeux Tapestry, at a cultural level # -- what would you
0:57:57 > 0:58:01like to be loaned to you.I don't know, we will wait for a gesture. I
0:58:01 > 0:58:05am sure we would be delighted to have anything sharing the fantastic
0:58:05 > 0:58:09new Xeon is all over.That is a mean question! Sorry.
0:58:09 > 0:58:13There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
0:58:13 > 0:58:15The question was:
0:58:15 > 0:58:17Which politician, booked to speak at a student event at UCL,
0:58:17 > 0:58:20was billed as 'like hearing Barack Obama in 2003'?
0:58:20 > 0:58:21Was it:
0:58:21 > 0:58:22A) Green Party co-leader Jonathan Bartley?
0:58:22 > 0:58:24B) Lib Dem MP Jo Swinson?
0:58:24 > 0:58:27C) Ukip Leader Henry Bolton?
0:58:27 > 0:58:29Or, D) Tory backbencher Jacob Rees-Mogg?
0:58:29 > 0:58:35So, Jonathan, what's the correct answer?
0:58:35 > 0:58:38By process of illumination, I am going to guess and the only one who
0:58:38 > 0:58:43seems to have a future ahead of her is Jo Swinson.Well done, your
0:58:43 > 0:58:46powers of deduction have worked well, it is in fact Jo Swinson.
0:58:46 > 0:58:51Despite that ambitious billing to be like Barack Obama!
0:58:51 > 0:58:52That's all for today.
0:58:52 > 0:58:55Thanks to our guests.
0:58:55 > 0:58:59Andrew will be on BBC One tonight.
0:58:59 > 0:59:02And I'll be here again at noon tomorrow.
0:59:02 > 0:59:03Bye-bye.