0:00:39 > 0:00:45Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:45 > 0:00:48The Justice Secretary David Gauke drops his proposed legal
0:00:48 > 0:00:51challenge to the decision to free the serial sex attacker Jon Worboys.
0:00:51 > 0:00:54We'll have the latest on this breaking story.
0:00:54 > 0:00:58Theresa May and Emmanuel Macron agree to speed up
0:00:58 > 0:01:01the processing of refugees and migrants in Calais.
0:01:01 > 0:01:04So will this mean more unaccompanied minors coming to Britain?
0:01:04 > 0:01:06Senior figures in the EU
0:01:06 > 0:01:08say Britain can always
0:01:08 > 0:01:13change its mind about Brexit.
0:01:13 > 0:01:15The UK Government say that isn't going to happen.
0:01:15 > 0:01:18We speak to a senior EU politician involved in the Brexit talks.
0:01:18 > 0:01:19And, the EU declares war...
0:01:19 > 0:01:21on plastic.
0:01:21 > 0:01:23But it shies away from a plastics tax.
0:01:23 > 0:01:30So will its strategy work?
0:01:33 > 0:01:36All that in the next hour, and with me for the whole programme
0:01:36 > 0:01:38today are Kate Andrews from the Institute of
0:01:38 > 0:01:40Economic Affairs and Alex Barker, Brussels Bureau Chief
0:01:40 > 0:01:42for the Financial Times.
0:01:42 > 0:01:44Welcome to you both.
0:01:44 > 0:01:51The breaking news today is that the Justice Secretary David
0:01:51 > 0:01:54Gauke has announced he is not going to pursue a legal challenge
0:01:54 > 0:02:01to the decision to release the rapist John Worboys on licence.
0:02:02 > 0:02:04The Parole board announced in December that the former black
0:02:04 > 0:02:07cab driver would be released at the end of this month
0:02:07 > 0:02:09as its panel was "confident" he would not reoffend.
0:02:09 > 0:02:11Let's listen to what Mr Gauke said in the Commons this
0:02:11 > 0:02:13morning.
0:02:13 > 0:02:16Having taken considered and expert legal advice, I have decided it
0:02:16 > 0:02:20would not be appropriate for me as the Secretary of State to proceed on
0:02:20 > 0:02:26such a case. Honourable members will appreciate I cannot expose the legal
0:02:26 > 0:02:29advice I have been given. I know this will disappoint the victims in
0:02:29 > 0:02:35this case and members of this House. Given the crimes for which he has
0:02:35 > 0:02:41been convicted, on a personal level, I share those concerns.
0:02:41 > 0:02:43Our home affairs correspondent Daniel Sandford
0:02:43 > 0:02:48joins me now.
0:02:49 > 0:02:53Victims will be disappointed, as will others. Was he right to raise a
0:02:53 > 0:02:59judicial review in the first place? His decision raised some eyebrows T
0:02:59 > 0:03:03idea of the Justice Secretary reviewing his own Parole Board is
0:03:03 > 0:03:09something which is highly unusual. We don't know the nature of the
0:03:09 > 0:03:16legal advice that David Gauke was given. It does not prevent any of
0:03:16 > 0:03:19Jon Worboys's victims pursuing a judicial review. We know two of them
0:03:19 > 0:03:23will certainly do that. They have already gone through the process of
0:03:23 > 0:03:27exchanging letter with the patrol board, warning of their intention to
0:03:27 > 0:03:31launch a judicial review. Papers will be launched on Monday for that
0:03:31 > 0:03:35review. There's been assurances given that Jon Worboys will not be
0:03:35 > 0:03:40released until that judicial review decision has been considered. In the
0:03:40 > 0:03:44short-term, despite David Gauke's decision today, there's no prospect
0:03:44 > 0:03:48of Jon Worboys being released imminently. Not least of all because
0:03:48 > 0:03:53David Gauke has made it clear in the Commons that he will consult with
0:03:53 > 0:03:57Jon Worboys's victims about the conditions under which he would be
0:03:57 > 0:04:04released into the community. His license conditions. He wants to have
0:04:04 > 0:04:09meetings with victims about that. If he is released, then at least the
0:04:09 > 0:04:13licence conditions meet some of the victims' expectations about where he
0:04:13 > 0:04:18may be allowed to live, go and what he may not be allowed to do while on
0:04:18 > 0:04:23licence.We don't know the reasons behind the decision that they took,
0:04:23 > 0:04:30and the head of that board said that he regarded the independence of the
0:04:30 > 0:04:34Parole Board as being extremely important. What do you make of the
0:04:34 > 0:04:37announcement to review the transparency of the Parole Board?
0:04:37 > 0:04:43That sounds as if it will be warmly welcomed on all sides, not least he
0:04:43 > 0:04:47who leads the Parole Board. He said he would like more transparency. He
0:04:47 > 0:05:02would like to be able to give some reasons. What Gauke has padded out,
0:05:02 > 0:05:05not reasons for the decisions but whether there should be more
0:05:05 > 0:05:09transparency around the process and that key bid about making sure that
0:05:09 > 0:05:13victims were informed about decisions, which wasn't the case in
0:05:13 > 0:05:19this case for some of the victims of Jon Worboys. One of the
0:05:19 > 0:05:23controversial things about him is he's managed to change his name to
0:05:23 > 0:05:31Jon Radford. He's lived in closed conditions in Wakefield Prison and
0:05:31 > 0:05:35not been in open conditions prior to this decision to release him out
0:05:35 > 0:05:37into the community.
0:05:37 > 0:05:39I'm joined now by the Chairman of the Justice Select
0:05:39 > 0:05:43committee, Conservative MP Bob Neill.
0:05:43 > 0:05:48So David Gauke is not seeking a judicial review into the decision to
0:05:48 > 0:05:52release Jon Worboys. Should he have floated the idea in the first place?
0:05:52 > 0:05:57Think think he should have to. I was in the Commons before the statement.
0:05:57 > 0:06:01Handled with great care and precision. Because of this, the
0:06:01 > 0:06:04public concern about the matter, it was legitimate for him as Justice
0:06:04 > 0:06:08Secretary to say I will explore every possible avenue to see if
0:06:08 > 0:06:12there is a legitimate grounds for review. That is perfectly normal in
0:06:12 > 0:06:16many cases.It is unusual for the Justice Secretary to take their own
0:06:16 > 0:06:21Parole Board or look at the idea of reviewing the Parole Board's
0:06:21 > 0:06:25decision and to say he'll not go ahead because he's been told there
0:06:25 > 0:06:28is not a high chance of success, has raised a lot of people's
0:06:28 > 0:06:32expectations.He's applied the correct test, as any proper lawyer
0:06:32 > 0:06:38should. That is to consider if there is such an option, then get proper
0:06:38 > 0:06:43legal advice and act upon it.Has Jon Worboys, in your mind, served
0:06:43 > 0:06:46long enough in prison for his crimes?My personal view would be
0:06:46 > 0:06:50probably not. I don't have the material that the Parole Board had,
0:06:50 > 0:06:54neither do I have the reasoning for their decision. What is important is
0:06:54 > 0:06:58that David Gauke is widening that review, specifically to include the
0:06:58 > 0:07:03opportunity to change the rules, so that decisions are given. As your
0:07:03 > 0:07:08piece rightly said, Nick Hardwicke is on record saying he would welcome
0:07:08 > 0:07:15that. That is an area we should push for.Would it not expose the Parole
0:07:15 > 0:07:19Board and its members to pressure into making a different decision?
0:07:19 > 0:07:23Well, there is always that tradeoff, isn't there, between the public
0:07:23 > 0:07:28interest and that turning in to proper, to an improper measure
0:07:28 > 0:07:32degree of pressure. That is why Jon Worboys is right to say he wants
0:07:32 > 0:07:35more transparency. He will welcome the opportunity to explain decisions
0:07:35 > 0:07:40more while welcoming independence. Other jurisdictions domain tan that
0:07:40 > 0:07:44balance. Do you welcome the decision not to push for a judicial review of
0:07:44 > 0:07:51a man who has been a serial sex attacker and will be released after
0:07:51 > 0:07:54serving less than ten years?I fear it would heighten the expectations
0:07:54 > 0:07:57of the victims if they don't think they have evidence or cause to do
0:07:57 > 0:08:02this, then they really shouldn't. We are so used to trial by media and
0:08:02 > 0:08:06trial by twitter we forget there is a justice system and we don't have
0:08:06 > 0:08:10all the information available. My biggest concern is it has been
0:08:10 > 0:08:15spread to people that he has allegedly raped hundreds of women.
0:08:15 > 0:08:19There were only 12 accusations put against him in court. We have not
0:08:19 > 0:08:23managed expectations as to what the result will be. We need to believe
0:08:23 > 0:08:27women more when they come forward. We need the evidence to lock people
0:08:27 > 0:08:33up for longer N this particular case we cannot play the justice system as
0:08:33 > 0:08:39individuals.How much blame needs to be pushed at the door of the Crown
0:08:39 > 0:08:42Prosecution Service - it was their decision not to take more cases than
0:08:42 > 0:08:46the 14 that ended up in court?That is a legitimate question. That
0:08:46 > 0:08:49should be asked. What I am uncomfortable with is politicians
0:08:49 > 0:08:57getting a bit too close to these kind of criminal processes. And in
0:08:57 > 0:09:00terms of the review, it is certainly the case it should have been looked
0:09:00 > 0:09:05at. You have to question whether it should have been flagged up as
0:09:05 > 0:09:09clearly beforehand. It would have been perhaps more sensible to make a
0:09:09 > 0:09:12statement, having seen the legal advice and said, I have looked at
0:09:12 > 0:09:17these options and taken it. But there are different ways to handle
0:09:17 > 0:09:22something as sensitive as this.Do you think Jon Worboys is safe to be
0:09:22 > 0:09:27released?I don't think any of us are able to say that. We don't have
0:09:27 > 0:09:32the material before us that the Parole Board had. Most would say it
0:09:32 > 0:09:36has been a surprising decision given he was in closed conditions until
0:09:36 > 0:09:41now. The important point is the Parole Board can only deal with him
0:09:41 > 0:09:44for the matters he's been convicted, as could the original judge. That is
0:09:44 > 0:09:48an issue which has to be considered. Equally, when those prosecution
0:09:48 > 0:09:51decisions are taken that has to be done independently of political
0:09:51 > 0:09:55pressure. And it has to meet both what is called an eve den shall
0:09:55 > 0:10:00test. Is there enough evidence to prove the offence and a public
0:10:00 > 0:10:04interest test. Now we don't know what was decided and why at those
0:10:04 > 0:10:07circumstances. But it is always possible, of course, that if further
0:10:07 > 0:10:11victims were to come forward and the evidence was credible and compelling
0:10:11 > 0:10:17and met the eve den shall test, then there is no time limit on bringing
0:10:17 > 0:10:20prosecutions of this kind. You are right, we have to be very calm about
0:10:20 > 0:10:25it. I think David Gauke was right to say, look we will look at all
0:10:25 > 0:10:28avenues, but equally having the advice, no doubt informed to buy
0:10:28 > 0:10:33that and by the fact of the material he had to expand his enquiry. The
0:10:33 > 0:10:36position of the evidence relating to other individuals depends on each
0:10:36 > 0:10:43individual case.Thank you.
0:10:43 > 0:10:45After President Macron's visit to the UK, the British Government
0:10:45 > 0:10:48has made a renewed pledge to allow more child refugees
0:10:48 > 0:10:49to come to Britain.
0:10:49 > 0:10:51It's one of the key parts of the agreement
0:10:51 > 0:10:53between France and the UK to strengthen co-operation.
0:10:53 > 0:10:56But the scheme to bring children to the UK under what was called
0:10:56 > 0:10:58the 'dubs amendment' ran into problems last year,
0:10:58 > 0:11:01and some councils say they're already struggling to look
0:11:01 > 0:11:03after the number of child refugees who arrive here.
0:11:03 > 0:11:10Here's Emma Vardy.
0:11:12 > 0:11:16Despite the dismantles of the camp in Calais, charities say there are
0:11:16 > 0:11:19hundreds of child refugees stranded in France, making dangerous attempts
0:11:19 > 0:11:24to travel to the UK.We have seen a big increase in the numbers either
0:11:24 > 0:11:29making their own way here, both across the channel and on planes
0:11:29 > 0:11:32flying into Heathrow, which is in my own borough and those who have come
0:11:32 > 0:11:36to the UK, where they have a family connection but it turns out that
0:11:36 > 0:11:40family member is not able to look after them, and that means they
0:11:40 > 0:11:44become the responsibility of the local council.
0:11:44 > 0:11:46Refugee children with family connections in Britain have a legal
0:11:46 > 0:11:53right to come here. And now Theresa May has agreed with President Macron
0:11:53 > 0:11:57that more unaccompanied children in France will be accepted into the UK.
0:11:57 > 0:12:00Local councils tasked with looking after child refugees when they reach
0:12:00 > 0:12:04Britain say they are facing a shortfall.The funding that's
0:12:04 > 0:12:09available from Government in the UK is around half the cost to councils
0:12:09 > 0:12:13of looking after refugee children. If there is going to be a big
0:12:13 > 0:12:16increase for services that already are under significant pressure then
0:12:16 > 0:12:22there needs to be the money to pay for the foster carers and the
0:12:22 > 0:12:27children homes required.Since 2016, 200 children have been brought to
0:12:27 > 0:12:31the UK under the Dubs amen meant, which allowed those without family
0:12:31 > 0:12:36connections to come. The initiative stalled. Many children who were
0:12:36 > 0:12:42eligible seemingliless behind.The problem is the hasn't committed to
0:12:42 > 0:12:48what it did 18 months ago and what Parliament voted for with the Dubs
0:12:48 > 0:13:00Amendment. We know there are 200 local authority
0:13:00 > 0:13:04local authority places for lone child refugees. It may be this is
0:13:04 > 0:13:09the Government agreeing to do what it promised to do some time ago.The
0:13:09 > 0:13:11amendment faced significant criticism in some newspapers, with
0:13:11 > 0:13:15questions over the age of the children who came and the legitimacy
0:13:15 > 0:13:20of their claims. Despite the war in Syria being believed to be one of
0:13:20 > 0:13:27the key factors behind the refugee crisis emerged many of the children
0:13:27 > 0:13:31came from African countries. Do the public feel generous enough
0:13:31 > 0:13:35in these economic times to feel like we are supporting more child
0:13:35 > 0:13:41migrants?There has always been a strong tradition in Britain of
0:13:41 > 0:13:45helping those fleeing persecution, from the kin der transport, from
0:13:45 > 0:13:48generations ago and there's been strong support across the country in
0:13:48 > 0:13:52making sure we carry on doing that, particularly for those who are the
0:13:52 > 0:13:56most vulnerable. There have to be proper checks in place. It has to be
0:13:56 > 0:14:01effective in the system. We've seen local authorities coming forward to
0:14:01 > 0:14:07offer places, but instead they have stood empty.
0:14:07 > 0:14:10The British Government says it also wants to provide more opportunities
0:14:10 > 0:14:15in people's countries of origin to try and prevent so many making the
0:14:15 > 0:14:19dangerous journey to France and the UK in the first place.
0:14:19 > 0:14:20I'm joined now
0:14:20 > 0:14:24We're joined now from Nottingham by the Conservative
0:14:24 > 0:14:32MP Andrew Bridgen.
0:14:34 > 0:14:39I am very concerned. We've had a policy of helping refugees in the
0:14:39 > 0:14:44region. We have given more aid to the Syrian crisis refugees in the
0:14:44 > 0:14:48region than the rest of the European Union added together. And also that
0:14:48 > 0:14:52we use our efforts to take the most vulnerable people who cannot make a
0:14:52 > 0:14:56journey across Europe from those camps. And bring them to the UK.
0:14:56 > 0:15:05I do feel that if we announce we are going to take more lone child
0:15:05 > 0:15:08refugees in, we are merely chucking petrol on to the fire and we'll have
0:15:08 > 0:15:13more people taking the risk of that very dangerous journey, placing
0:15:13 > 0:15:16themselves potentially in the hands of unscrupulous people traffickers
0:15:16 > 0:15:21who care nothing of their welfare. I feel we'll be doing the wrong thing
0:15:21 > 0:15:25for all the right reasons.When the amendment was first agreed and then
0:15:25 > 0:15:30in fact was dropped, the number of 3,000 unaccompanied minors was the
0:15:30 > 0:15:35figure that was talked about. Britain has only so far taken around
0:15:35 > 0:15:40220. Do you really think that Britain's done its bit in taking,
0:15:40 > 0:15:45you have talked about vulnerable people who have fled their
0:15:45 > 0:15:48countries, surely unaccompanied children and child refugees are the
0:15:48 > 0:15:49most vulnerable?
0:15:54 > 0:15:57We shouldn't be encouraging them to make the journey. The most
0:15:57 > 0:16:01vulnerable people are the ones who are too unwell to make the long
0:16:01 > 0:16:04journey across Europe, and they are the people we should be helping and
0:16:04 > 0:16:08that has been the government position. Let's say again, we have
0:16:08 > 0:16:14put more aid into the Syrian refugee crisis in the region than any other
0:16:14 > 0:16:18humanitarian project in the history of the country and we have put more
0:16:18 > 0:16:22money in than every country in the European Union added together.But
0:16:22 > 0:16:25if there are countries willing to take unaccompanied children who have
0:16:25 > 0:16:29fled war zones like Syria and they are already on the continent, why
0:16:29 > 0:16:34should Britain not do its bit?It has said it would take more. Because
0:16:34 > 0:16:37we will be exacerbated -- exacerbating the problem and we will
0:16:37 > 0:16:41have more vulnerable young people who will make the journey in the
0:16:41 > 0:16:46hope they will be settled in the UK and have a new life here.So you are
0:16:46 > 0:16:49against the government policy on this?I am for common sense and
0:16:49 > 0:16:52looking at human nature and doing the right thing not only for the
0:16:52 > 0:16:57people of the UK but also the those vulnerable refugees. It would be
0:16:57 > 0:17:03doing the wrong thing for the right reasons.Do you accept Britain has
0:17:03 > 0:17:06to do its bit because it has to be the price of Brexit and getting the
0:17:06 > 0:17:11sort of deal that the government would like to see, taking in Maud
0:17:11 > 0:17:15refugees and paying for the privilege of having customs
0:17:15 > 0:17:19officials in France is the price Britain has to play in getting the
0:17:19 > 0:17:24deal -- has to pay.That is the price we are all paying for the
0:17:24 > 0:17:28irresponsible decision from Angela Merkel to basically advice -- invite
0:17:28 > 0:17:33the world into a borderless Europe. It was in the world, it was Syrian
0:17:33 > 0:17:38refugees.It was axing mostly from North Africa as your report pointed
0:17:38 > 0:17:43out, it was economic migrants -- it was actually. The blame lies with
0:17:43 > 0:17:47Angela Merkel and she is paying the political cost because she is too
0:17:47 > 0:17:50toxic for anyone who wants to form a coalition government with her in
0:17:50 > 0:17:54Germany.That wasn't the question I asked, but is this the price the
0:17:54 > 0:17:58British government will have to pay after the meeting between Emmanuel
0:17:58 > 0:18:03Macron and Theresa May, that by paying a bit of money to keep our
0:18:03 > 0:18:07border guards over in France and by taking more unaccompanied child
0:18:07 > 0:18:12refugees we will get a better deal. I am all for a good bilateral
0:18:12 > 0:18:17relationship between us and our neighbours. We have do stick to the
0:18:17 > 0:18:21agreement, that is not an EU agreement, its an agreement we made
0:18:21 > 0:18:24with the French government that suits both parties and there will
0:18:24 > 0:18:28have to be some give and take but I wouldn't want to publicise the fact
0:18:28 > 0:18:33that by people making that dangerous journey across Europe and placing
0:18:33 > 0:18:35themselves in extreme danger that they will enhance their
0:18:35 > 0:18:41opportunities of getting into the UK.So you would like to close the
0:18:41 > 0:18:44borders to unaccompanied child refugees?I think it would be the
0:18:44 > 0:18:47most humanitarian thing to do for them in particular. If you look at
0:18:47 > 0:18:55all of the grievances, and you claim shelter in the first safe country
0:18:55 > 0:18:59you get to, are we alleging that France is not a safe country?It's
0:18:59 > 0:19:04not normally the first country that the refugees have got to.But France
0:19:04 > 0:19:08have taken the decision to join the Schengen area so they have no
0:19:08 > 0:19:13borders.Let's move on to the decision by your government's
0:19:13 > 0:19:16Justice Secretary David Gauke not to seek a judicial review into the
0:19:16 > 0:19:21decision to release John Worboys, the Black cab rapist. Do you agree
0:19:21 > 0:19:27with the decision?I can understand the frustration. I can understand
0:19:27 > 0:19:30David Gauke has taken legal advice and it's probably not correct for
0:19:30 > 0:19:35the government to take this action. Whether he is representative of his
0:19:35 > 0:19:42many victims, that is a different matter. I can absolutely understand
0:19:42 > 0:19:46the frustration of his many victims as they will feel that relatively
0:19:46 > 0:19:50justice has not been done and he has not served longer enough, but as one
0:19:50 > 0:19:55of your contributors said, the main problem was that he was only
0:19:55 > 0:19:59prosecuted for 14 cases at the time when it could have been many more
0:19:59 > 0:20:03than that. So the parole board have treated him and the courts have
0:20:03 > 0:20:06treated him giving him a sentence related to the crimes for which he
0:20:06 > 0:20:11was prosecuted. That will not feel like justice to the tens and tens of
0:20:11 > 0:20:16his victims.Do you think he should have raised the idea at all before
0:20:16 > 0:20:21he had the legal advice?He may have raised expectations for the victims
0:20:21 > 0:20:25but at the end of the day if there is a judicial review and I think the
0:20:25 > 0:20:28crowd funding will deliver that for the victims then the objective can
0:20:28 > 0:20:35be achieved and as Bob Neill said not long ago, there is an
0:20:35 > 0:20:38opportunity for other cases where there is compelling evidence where
0:20:38 > 0:20:43he could be retried for cases for which he was not originally
0:20:43 > 0:20:49indicted.Thank you for joining us. I am joined by the shadow home
0:20:49 > 0:20:53secretary Diane Abbott. Your response to the decision from David
0:20:53 > 0:20:57Gauke?I haven't seen the legal advice that David Gauke has
0:20:57 > 0:21:04received. What I do say is that I support the victims's wish to
0:21:04 > 0:21:10procure a judicial review and I think it is just a shame that they
0:21:10 > 0:21:15are having to crowd fund to pay for it. Surely they should have the
0:21:15 > 0:21:19support anyway. But I wouldn't want to comment on the decision from
0:21:19 > 0:21:23David Gauke because I don't know the advice he received. What we are
0:21:23 > 0:21:29calling for is an end to end review of the whole process and more
0:21:29 > 0:21:32transparency with parole board decision-making.So you support his
0:21:32 > 0:21:36extension to have a look at the parole board decisions and how they
0:21:36 > 0:21:41made? But much has been made of the fact that the prosecution at the
0:21:41 > 0:21:45time was bungled. How much blame do you put on the prosecution service
0:21:45 > 0:21:50at the time for only bringing 14 cases to court, one for rape, when
0:21:50 > 0:21:55102 women made allegations against John Worboys and many victims were
0:21:55 > 0:22:00told he would be inside for life, so don't worry.I think we have to look
0:22:00 > 0:22:06forward. We have two understand how wrong it is that the victims have
0:22:06 > 0:22:14two crowd fund to pursue a judicial review and we have to do have more
0:22:14 > 0:22:17transparency about parole board decision-making.Do you also think
0:22:17 > 0:22:20the police and prosecution service have to listen to victims more
0:22:20 > 0:22:23because then more cases would have been brought forward and then the
0:22:23 > 0:22:27judge would have given a longer sentence, perhaps, and the parole
0:22:27 > 0:22:30board would not have had the discussion to release him in under
0:22:30 > 0:22:36ten years?We don't know the detail of what happened when the decision
0:22:36 > 0:22:42was taken to prosecute John Worboys for what was a relatively small
0:22:42 > 0:22:49number of offences. So it would be unwise to make statements about
0:22:49 > 0:22:56that. But more generally, it seems to me that the police and the
0:22:56 > 0:23:03prosecution authorities need more resources to enable them to take a
0:23:03 > 0:23:06really thorough approach to cases like this.But isn't it that
0:23:06 > 0:23:11decision that has actually landed the parole board and the government
0:23:11 > 0:23:16in the situation it is in today?I would say that they need the police
0:23:16 > 0:23:21and prosecuting authorities to have the resources to have a really
0:23:21 > 0:23:26thorough look at cases like these in the future.We wanted to talk to
0:23:26 > 0:23:29also about child refugees and migrants. We have seen the footage
0:23:29 > 0:23:33of the camps in Calais, but why should Britain taking more
0:23:33 > 0:23:40unaccompanied minors? Isn't it just fuelling an incentive for more
0:23:40 > 0:23:44children to make a dangerous journey?You have seen the footage
0:23:44 > 0:23:47but I have actually visited the camps in Calais and I cannot
0:23:47 > 0:23:53overstate the horror of the conditions. The so-called Jungle was
0:23:53 > 0:23:57cleared but now hundreds more have come back and are in horrific
0:23:57 > 0:24:03conditions. And we have a moral responsibility to child refugees.
0:24:03 > 0:24:07And this disagreement between Emmanuel Macron and Theresa May
0:24:07 > 0:24:11means both sides are stepping up to their responsibilities to refugees
0:24:11 > 0:24:17and that is obviously a good thing. The British Red Cross save 220 child
0:24:17 > 0:24:22migrants have arrived in the UK so far because of the amendment, and
0:24:22 > 0:24:28the government amended -- ended that last year and set a limit of 480
0:24:28 > 0:24:31children. In your mind, is that an arbitrary figure and should the CAP
0:24:31 > 0:24:36be lifted?It's a completely arbitrary figure. The number of
0:24:36 > 0:24:41child refugees we take should be determined by need, not by an
0:24:41 > 0:24:44arbitrary figure. Thereau local authorities who are willing to take
0:24:44 > 0:24:47these children. It seems extraordinary to me that people
0:24:47 > 0:24:54should be arguing the toss about saving children from the awful
0:24:54 > 0:24:58conditions in Calais at the present time.So you think there should not
0:24:58 > 0:25:02be a limit at all? We could take thousands if that is the need?I
0:25:02 > 0:25:07believe it's about need. We cannot have an arbitrary cap but both sides
0:25:07 > 0:25:11have to step up to their responsibilities. One of the
0:25:11 > 0:25:14problems on the French side is that it takes an inordinately long amount
0:25:14 > 0:25:20of time to apply for refugee status if you are in France. Under
0:25:20 > 0:25:25voluntary organisations dealing with the issue believe that the French
0:25:25 > 0:25:29themselves could do more but I would not set an arbitrary amount on the
0:25:29 > 0:25:32number of desperate children we welcome to this country.Just stay
0:25:32 > 0:25:36with us for a moment while I turned to my guests. Kate Andrews, do you
0:25:36 > 0:25:41think it should be as Diane described, a case of taking in
0:25:41 > 0:25:45unaccompanied child refugees on the basis of need with no limit?We have
0:25:45 > 0:25:49to be realistic about what we have the resources for. If you bring in
0:25:49 > 0:25:58thousands and thousands of
0:25:58 > 0:25:59thousands and thousands of people and you cannot help them because you
0:25:59 > 0:26:01don't have the resources it's hard to see how that would benefit them
0:26:01 > 0:26:04but I agree with Diane Abbott that the number we are taking currently
0:26:04 > 0:26:06is too low. We are talking about children, not economic migrants.
0:26:06 > 0:26:09Andrew's point about being more transparent is well taken and it has
0:26:09 > 0:26:13to be made clear, but especially after Brexit, if Britain wants to
0:26:13 > 0:26:17maintain its status in the world it needs to step up to the moral duty
0:26:17 > 0:26:21of helping those who need it most. Do you think when it came to the
0:26:21 > 0:26:26meeting yesterday that Emmanuel Macron somehow has the whip hand in
0:26:26 > 0:26:29dictating terms on things like paying for officials in France and
0:26:29 > 0:26:34also Britain, in his mind, doing more to take in unaccompanied
0:26:34 > 0:26:39children?The interesting thing is he retreated a bit from his hard
0:26:39 > 0:26:42position before the election campaign in France where he wanted
0:26:42 > 0:26:48to rip up the agreement entirely and he has taken stick in France for not
0:26:48 > 0:26:51getting enough money from the UK and enough commitment on the refugee
0:26:51 > 0:26:57side. I think it will be interesting on the UK side to ensure that level
0:26:57 > 0:27:03of engagement in taking on the responsibility is there to protect
0:27:03 > 0:27:10disagreement, because the debate starts in France about why the
0:27:10 > 0:27:14border different to the UK, that might be difficult to content.Do
0:27:14 > 0:27:17you believe that freedom of movement needs to continue even after we
0:27:17 > 0:27:21leave the EU and what checks, if any, should there be on those coming
0:27:21 > 0:27:26in?The government has agreed with our position that there has to be a
0:27:26 > 0:27:31transitional period when we leave the EU and as part of that
0:27:31 > 0:27:35transition period we will stay within the single market and the
0:27:35 > 0:27:41customs union. If we are in the single market, there will be a
0:27:41 > 0:27:45measure of freedom of movement but I return to the argument that we
0:27:45 > 0:27:50should be taking more of these child refugees and there can't be
0:27:50 > 0:27:53thousands of them because the wrong thousands of people around Calais,
0:27:53 > 0:27:57and I think that is a way of ducking our moral responsibilities.Thank
0:27:57 > 0:28:00you very much.
0:28:00 > 0:28:03Much of the focus so far in the progress of Brexit has
0:28:03 > 0:28:05focussed on Westminster where MPs have voted to trigger Article 50,
0:28:05 > 0:28:08and where Parliament continues to discuss and amend the EU
0:28:08 > 0:28:16Withdrawal Bill.
0:28:18 > 0:28:21We have also seen action in Brussels, with seemingly endless
0:28:21 > 0:28:22negotiations and press conferences featuring Michel Barnier
0:28:22 > 0:28:23and David Davis.
0:28:23 > 0:28:25But at some point, the action will move
0:28:25 > 0:28:27decisively to Strasbourg, where MEPs will, according
0:28:27 > 0:28:30to to the Article 50 process, have a say over the final deal,
0:28:30 > 0:28:31including any transitional arrangements.
0:28:31 > 0:28:35So we may want to pay heed to what MEPs are saying on Brexit,
0:28:35 > 0:28:37and especially the largest group, the European People's Party.
0:28:37 > 0:28:39This centre-right grouping used to include Britain's Conservatives,
0:28:39 > 0:28:41but relations have been frosty since David Cameron pulled his party
0:28:41 > 0:28:42out of the grouping.
0:28:42 > 0:28:46Joining me now is the Polish MEP Danuta Hubner.
0:28:46 > 0:28:50She chairs the European Parliament's Constitutional Affairs Committee
0:28:50 > 0:28:56and is also on the Parliament's Brexit steering committee.
0:28:56 > 0:29:02A busy lady then with all of those committees to look out for.Brexit
0:29:02 > 0:29:07did generate a lot of work for me.I am sure. What is the European
0:29:07 > 0:29:11Parliament's role in Brexit?It is important because at the end of the
0:29:11 > 0:29:17process with the transition, and when October or November comes on
0:29:17 > 0:29:23the deal is finalised, we will have do proceed through something where
0:29:23 > 0:29:31we have do approve and say yes or no, accept or reject.So you have a
0:29:31 > 0:29:37power of veto over the deal agreed between the EU and the UK?It is
0:29:37 > 0:29:42interesting you are using the words veto because we never think of it as
0:29:42 > 0:29:48that. We can look and say no and say there is no deal and then the cliff
0:29:48 > 0:29:53edge comes.Do you think that really is a possibility? If Michel Barnier
0:29:53 > 0:29:56and the other EU countries and the UK government have said yes to a
0:29:56 > 0:30:02deal then Parliament would say no? Just to avoid that situation we have
0:30:02 > 0:30:05organised herself in parliament in such a way that we make everybody
0:30:05 > 0:30:09feel we are part of it and we have access to information and we have
0:30:09 > 0:30:14the Brexit weekly meetings and all of the big groups of more than 500
0:30:14 > 0:30:18people voted yes to the last resolution so we are doing
0:30:18 > 0:30:23everything to avoid such an unexpected final outcome.So it
0:30:23 > 0:30:30would be unexpected but possible?
0:30:33 > 0:30:42Our feeling of responsibility to our our citizens.What are the red lines
0:30:42 > 0:30:45for you and your fellow parliamentarians, particularly in
0:30:45 > 0:30:49this EPP when it comes to the the goshations?Well, we -- the
0:30:49 > 0:30:54negotiations? Well we resented our red lines with regards to it is
0:30:54 > 0:30:58Seines. We see it is meeting the criteria and the necessities we
0:30:58 > 0:31:06have. Then I think also for us, what is important really is that the
0:31:06 > 0:31:10integrity remains in tact. So we all be become smaller after the Brexit,
0:31:10 > 0:31:14but we want to keep the European Union not undermined by this
0:31:14 > 0:31:19process.How powerful is the European Parliament in this?The
0:31:19 > 0:31:27Parliament's power over the years has been growing a lot. It is canny
0:31:27 > 0:31:31at looking at procedures like this and ensuring the voice is heard
0:31:31 > 0:31:35throughout the process. That is what is happening. There is another ow
0:31:35 > 0:31:43their the Parliament has, which is interesting, which is bringing, ask
0:31:43 > 0:31:47the courts to look at what deal there is. Is that possible?We can
0:31:47 > 0:31:51do it. If you remember last year we had the discussion on the deal with
0:31:51 > 0:31:56Canada. We have voted whether we'll go to the court or not. That's why
0:31:56 > 0:32:02we are avoiding a situation which might emerge at the end. This lack
0:32:02 > 0:32:05of feeling that this is something we want to say yes to. That we are
0:32:05 > 0:32:09involved throughout the process. We are contributing to the European
0:32:09 > 0:32:15positions, but we are helping Michel Barnier every week to discuss
0:32:15 > 0:32:21Brexit. We feel we are having control over the whole process.On
0:32:21 > 0:32:24the citizens' rights you mentioned just a moment ago, do you agree with
0:32:24 > 0:32:28others in the EU that any citizens from the European Union that come to
0:32:28 > 0:32:31Britain right up until the end of the transition period should have
0:32:31 > 0:32:36leave to remain indefinitely?Well, that is our position that we
0:32:36 > 0:32:40understand - the transition period is just a prolongation of what we
0:32:40 > 0:32:45have, so we would continue with the rights for the Brits on the
0:32:45 > 0:32:49continent and for us continentals here and then the transition means
0:32:49 > 0:32:53if, that the rights are maintained. Right. Obviously that Britain would
0:32:53 > 0:32:58accept rules from the European Court of Justice under those terms. Do you
0:32:58 > 0:33:02think the European Parliament could stymie a deal that is brought?It is
0:33:02 > 0:33:07possible. I am hearing optimistic stuff here which is great. A no deal
0:33:07 > 0:33:10scenario, we often talk about it in the context of the UK. Of course it
0:33:10 > 0:33:13would be very bad for all countries involved. At the moment the question
0:33:13 > 0:33:20is, where is the give and take going to be? Is the UK going to be willing
0:33:20 > 0:33:22to compromise to allow people to come and stay indefinitely if it
0:33:22 > 0:33:29means they can export more services more freely than we have the
0:33:29 > 0:33:32Canadian-EU deal. These questions will be asked. If everyone is trying
0:33:32 > 0:33:37to get to a deal, hopefully we can get to something both parties can
0:33:37 > 0:33:42live with at the end of the day.We have to clearly admit which don't
0:33:42 > 0:33:48have to make a besprok agreement for the transition. We have to continue
0:33:48 > 0:33:52the same obligations that the UK has a member-state and the same rights.
0:33:52 > 0:33:56There is a small difference you will not participate in the institutional
0:33:56 > 0:34:01functioning of the European Union. So no bespoke deal for the
0:34:01 > 0:34:05implementation period because there's no time. What about a
0:34:05 > 0:34:10bespoke trade deal for the UK. Is that possible?This have l be at two
0:34:10 > 0:34:14same times, the stages - one we will need between now and October, more
0:34:14 > 0:34:19or less the decision of the UK, what type of future framework the UK
0:34:19 > 0:34:23would be in favour of. And see that we are also happy with this type of
0:34:23 > 0:34:27proposal.So you could see a bespoke deal?For the future, we can, yes,
0:34:27 > 0:34:32we have to accept that we... We know very well what the UK does not want
0:34:32 > 0:34:37to have. But we don't have yet a clear idea of what the UK would like
0:34:37 > 0:34:44to have after the transition.Thank you very much.
0:34:44 > 0:34:47For the next half an hour we're going to be focusing on all matters
0:34:47 > 0:34:50EU-related as MEPs have been meeting in Strasbourg this week
0:34:50 > 0:34:51for their latest plenary session.
0:34:51 > 0:34:53So here's our guide to the latest from Europe -
0:34:53 > 0:35:01in just sixty seconds.
0:35:01 > 0:35:08The EU declared war on plastic. The commission's new strategy aims to
0:35:08 > 0:35:13unlaw single use plastics by 2030. No mention of a move to tax. The
0:35:13 > 0:35:16Bulgarian President has ended the country's plans to MEPs in
0:35:16 > 0:35:22Strasbourg. The first time Bulgaria has taken charge of the rotating
0:35:22 > 0:35:28post. The EU council President got all weepy about Brexit. Tweeting,
0:35:28 > 0:35:33our hearts are still open for you. We all send texts like that late at
0:35:33 > 0:35:39night. Jean-Claude Juncker wondered if it
0:35:39 > 0:35:43could be reversed using Article 49. Romania has a new President. The
0:35:43 > 0:35:53third in seven months. She will be the first country's PM if approved.
0:35:53 > 0:35:57The breakthrough in German negotiations, the initial deal is
0:35:57 > 0:36:01called an excellent result. We will see.
0:36:11 > 0:36:19Does Jean-Claude Juncker think it is reversible - Brexit?
0:36:21 > 0:36:25He says it is important it could happen.What is he actually getting
0:36:25 > 0:36:36at?Their ideal outcome of
0:36:37 > 0:36:42at?Their ideal outcome of this is, well for Donald Tusk what has been
0:36:42 > 0:36:47built up.Between now and October? Yes.What about Jean-Claude Juncker?
0:36:47 > 0:36:51Is he talking more about the UK changing its mind once it has left
0:36:51 > 0:36:59and then rejoining?He mentioned Article 49. That's the process that
0:36:59 > 0:37:06Moldova would be... And it is a pretty rough road. You're looking at
0:37:06 > 0:37:09accepting the Euro, accepting things like not having a rebate. I don't
0:37:09 > 0:37:13think that is necessarily the path that the British public would want
0:37:13 > 0:37:18to go down.What is your reaction hearing these two important people
0:37:18 > 0:37:23within the EU, the commission President, saying, yes, our hearts
0:37:23 > 0:37:26are still open and council President, you can come back or not
0:37:26 > 0:37:30leave at all.There are a few things going on here. Alex is completely
0:37:30 > 0:37:34right it is not in their interest to see the system they have built and
0:37:34 > 0:37:38invested in, so very much, to lose one of their most important members.
0:37:38 > 0:37:42And so there is still the sense they don't want to give other countries
0:37:42 > 0:37:45the assumption it is an easy process, that it is something they
0:37:45 > 0:37:50could do. To the sweeter talk, I think this is getting closer to when
0:37:50 > 0:37:53the negotiations are going to get nitty-gritty. Both sides want to be
0:37:53 > 0:37:57seen playing nice. There was that hard-ball gameplayed in the
0:37:57 > 0:38:02beginning. Now you want to paint yourself open as getting a deal. If
0:38:02 > 0:38:06you don't, it will be catastrophic for many, many countries involved.
0:38:06 > 0:38:09Does it sound like they are not accepting the decision though that
0:38:09 > 0:38:13Britain made with the referendum? No. I don't think so. Certainly
0:38:13 > 0:38:17there's some people you could talk to in Brussels who think the idea of
0:38:17 > 0:38:24reversing shouldn't happen and hope it doesn't. But if it came to it,
0:38:24 > 0:38:29and the UK, for whatever kind of circumstances ended up changing its
0:38:29 > 0:38:33mind, the 27 would think what better valuation for our project than a
0:38:33 > 0:38:38country trying to leave and then deciding it can't. I think the road
0:38:38 > 0:38:41back would probably be quite smooth. And also the person saying this and
0:38:41 > 0:38:45where you are saying it from matters very much. We talk about a second
0:38:45 > 0:38:49referendum in the UK, that has much more political weight. Politicians
0:38:49 > 0:38:52in Westminster have been instructed by their people and their public to
0:38:52 > 0:38:56carry forward something. When people do it from other countries it has a
0:38:56 > 0:39:01slightly different ang. You would say -- angle. You could say they are
0:39:01 > 0:39:05not respecting the referendum. They are being generous. They are saying,
0:39:05 > 0:39:11let's keep the conversation going.
0:39:11 > 0:39:13Irish Taoiseach Leo Varadkar led a debate on the 'future
0:39:13 > 0:39:15of Europe' with MEPs in Strasbourg this week.
0:39:15 > 0:39:17That's a future, of course, without the UK.
0:39:17 > 0:39:20So were there any shots across the bows regarding Brexit?
0:39:20 > 0:39:25Adam Fleming gives us his hot take on the Irish Pm's speech....
0:39:25 > 0:39:29The New Year means new thinking. And the European Parliament is holding
0:39:29 > 0:39:37big debates about the few xur of the EU, with EU leaders. First up is the
0:39:37 > 0:39:45Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar. He wooed the Parliament with references to
0:39:45 > 0:39:49big figures past and present. European-wide candidates for the
0:39:49 > 0:39:52parliamentary elections.I suppose a Europe-wide list for the European
0:39:52 > 0:39:58Parliament. I'd like to get people in cafes and Naples and restaurants
0:39:58 > 0:40:03in Galway, talking about the same election choices. Perhaps that's an
0:40:03 > 0:40:10ambitious idea, but it is one we should strive for.The EU needed to
0:40:10 > 0:40:13be ambitious too about skurt tu, cutting the cost of medicines,
0:40:13 > 0:40:17helping the rest of the world, but there were limits to integration.
0:40:17 > 0:40:20Whatever our future holds, Europe needs to be competitive
0:40:20 > 0:40:26economically. And one of the ways to ensure this is by allowing
0:40:26 > 0:40:31competition among member-states. I think this is particularly important
0:40:31 > 0:40:35for peripheral and less developed countries, whose domestic markets
0:40:35 > 0:40:40are small and need inward investment. My strong view is that
0:40:40 > 0:40:44national taxes that fund national budgets should be determined by
0:40:44 > 0:40:49national Parliaments and Governments.That led to raised
0:40:49 > 0:40:52eyebrows because Ireland is notorious for low rates of
0:40:52 > 0:40:56corporation tax and it has been taken to court over a deal with
0:40:56 > 0:41:02Apple.You would say that Ireland should be able to find ways to make
0:41:02 > 0:41:08up for geographic disadvantage. The alternative cannot be between a
0:41:08 > 0:41:13one-size fits all taxation system that would work for the central core
0:41:13 > 0:41:17European countries to the detriment of everyone else and a no-holds
0:41:17 > 0:41:21barred tax competition we have right now.Of course there was an enormous
0:41:21 > 0:41:27elephant in the room - Brexit.As the negotiations move forward into
0:41:27 > 0:41:30phase two, we will continue to rely on your support and solidarity, as
0:41:30 > 0:41:34we work to ensure that what has been promised in theory is delivered in
0:41:34 > 0:41:39practise. And there can be no backsliding on this.
0:41:39 > 0:41:43So, it is important that these commitments are fully reflected in
0:41:43 > 0:41:47the legal text of the withdrawal agreement and firmly embedded in the
0:41:47 > 0:41:51UK's future relationship with the European Union. Whatever shape that
0:41:51 > 0:41:55ultimately takes place. And for my part, I hope that the new
0:41:55 > 0:41:59relationship that exists between the United Kingdom and the European
0:41:59 > 0:42:03Union is as close and as deep as is possible.But how close are
0:42:03 > 0:42:09relationships with the UK?When you think that nearly 50% of exports
0:42:09 > 0:42:13from Irish-owned companies go to the United Kingdom and agriculture in
0:42:13 > 0:42:19some sectors, it is as high as 90%, you potentially have quite a lot to
0:42:19 > 0:42:27lose. And yet, and yet, despite the fact that no-one should be fighting
0:42:27 > 0:42:31harder for a genuine rounded trade deal than you, that doesn't appear
0:42:31 > 0:42:38to be the case. His name in the visitor's book - Leo
0:42:38 > 0:42:42Varadkar's Eurovision on the records. The other leaders who have
0:42:42 > 0:42:46signed up to give Is include the Prime Ministers of Portugal and
0:42:46 > 0:42:50Croatia and the big one - Emmanuel Macron, of France, due here in
0:42:50 > 0:42:53April.
0:42:53 > 0:42:55I'm joined now from Dublin by the Irish MEP Mairead McGuinness
0:42:55 > 0:43:01who was by her Prime Minister's side on Wednesday.
0:43:01 > 0:43:07Welcome to The Daily Politics. Sam mi Wilson said Leo Varadkar was
0:43:07 > 0:43:11naive, arrogant and inexperienced for siding with the EU over the UK
0:43:11 > 0:43:15in the Brexit negotiations. What do you say to him?Indeed and he used
0:43:15 > 0:43:19another term for which he later apologised for. I disagree with all
0:43:19 > 0:43:24of that. I think on the performance of the Taoiseach's speech, about the
0:43:24 > 0:43:29future of Europe, he was anything but. He was very clear, very
0:43:29 > 0:43:33focussed on the issues and he didn't dodge the hard questions. You played
0:43:33 > 0:43:37that piece around taxation, he was able to respond by saying there were
0:43:37 > 0:43:43other member-states who have a higher rate of tax. When it comes to
0:43:43 > 0:43:47exemptions, etc, they collect less tax, and the rates are lower. He
0:43:47 > 0:43:52dealt comprehensively with the range of issues. I am not sure how Mr
0:43:52 > 0:43:55Wilson came to that viewpoint. Perhaps he had it anyway and felt he
0:43:55 > 0:43:59had to reflect it. The world has moved on from that type of politics,
0:43:59 > 0:44:04I would hope. What happened this week in Strasbourg was very
0:44:04 > 0:44:08significant and hugely important for Europe. Leo Varadkar was the first
0:44:08 > 0:44:13leader of the country, of the EU 27 to put his case forward and he had a
0:44:13 > 0:44:19set-piece of his speech which was well received. I thought more
0:44:19 > 0:44:24importantly the responses and the humanity of his responses and how he
0:44:24 > 0:44:28articulated the special relationship between the UK and Ireland, where he
0:44:28 > 0:44:33said his mother and father met in the UK, fell in love, got Mary and
0:44:33 > 0:44:38one of his sisters lives there and they are UK it is Seines but Irish
0:44:38 > 0:44:45as well. -- UK citizens but Irish as well. The reaction has been very
0:44:45 > 0:44:50positive.Sam hi Wilson was pointing to the -- Sammy Wilson was pointing
0:44:50 > 0:44:56to the fact that Ireland was used as a stick to beat the UK in phase one.
0:44:56 > 0:45:01The issue of the Irish border was a red line during that first phrase
0:45:01 > 0:45:07and for a moment looked like the UK would play hard ball on it. Once the
0:45:07 > 0:45:10offer was upped by the UK Government it seemed the EU settled the matter
0:45:10 > 0:45:16very quickly. So, were you really used in that first phase?Gosh, I
0:45:16 > 0:45:20think that is a very cynical and incorrect interpretation of the work
0:45:20 > 0:45:26we all did going up to the end of last year.But it wasn't resolved.
0:45:26 > 0:45:29The Irish border issue wasn't resolved. That was the point. They
0:45:29 > 0:45:38said it had to be resolved before phase one and it wasn't.
0:45:38 > 0:45:42I think you are wrong in that. It was clear there would be no return
0:45:42 > 0:45:47to a hard border. I spent hours last night with the Irish medical
0:45:47 > 0:45:50Organisation talking about cross-border collaboration after
0:45:50 > 0:45:54Brexit and that is a serious issue not just the politics but for people
0:45:54 > 0:45:57on the ground. When we look at the future it's around issues like
0:45:57 > 0:46:02health care and access to medicines and medical devices which UK
0:46:02 > 0:46:07citizens should be really concerned about because it has been quite
0:46:07 > 0:46:09astonishing number of pharmaceutical companies that have been in my
0:46:09 > 0:46:14office in Brussels pleading with me to understand their situation and
0:46:14 > 0:46:19they are worried about being able to continue if there is a clean, or
0:46:19 > 0:46:23clean is not the right word, but a severe deal and no good relationship
0:46:23 > 0:46:28at the end of all of this process. And if we bear in mind of the
0:46:28 > 0:46:32consequences of that then the politics has to work, so I disagree
0:46:32 > 0:46:37with your interpretation. I must finish this point. Anybody who would
0:46:37 > 0:46:42use the border in Ireland politically and incorrectly would
0:46:42 > 0:46:46certainly be no friend of Ireland and we have enormous support in the
0:46:46 > 0:46:51European Parliament and elsewhere around the border question because
0:46:51 > 0:46:55Europe's is a peace project.And I said there was a lot of support from
0:46:55 > 0:46:59the EU but that seems to dissolve in terms with an issue and so in what
0:46:59 > 0:47:04way has the Irish border issue been resolved as there is a guarantee of
0:47:04 > 0:47:08a hard border, but the question is about what will happen in terms of
0:47:08 > 0:47:13the trade deal and in terms of how regulations and customers will be
0:47:13 > 0:47:18looked at in the future because the draft agreement it said the UK would
0:47:18 > 0:47:24propose specific solutions to look at the situation of Ireland. It was
0:47:24 > 0:47:30not resolved. It was kicked down the road.I would interpret it
0:47:30 > 0:47:33differently and I would disagreed vigourously with your interpretation
0:47:33 > 0:47:37that once the money was sorted then the Irish question was practically
0:47:37 > 0:47:41dismissed. I think that's an appalling interpretation of what
0:47:41 > 0:47:46happened and the text of what is agreed, the bottom line in this text
0:47:46 > 0:47:51this was referred to as well, we would not to wait hard border on the
0:47:51 > 0:47:54island of Ireland and arrangements would have to be made, and we don't
0:47:54 > 0:47:59know how the talks will develop and we have not got a transition
0:47:59 > 0:48:02agreement reached yet in order that there is none of that difficulty
0:48:02 > 0:48:09around the border. And of course, if the United Kingdom continues on the
0:48:09 > 0:48:12path of wanting divergences in the United Kingdom has a problem in
0:48:12 > 0:48:16meeting its commitments, which are made in the withdrawal agreement
0:48:16 > 0:48:23which has to be written into legal text. My finish.But I must go to my
0:48:23 > 0:48:31other guests.Very briefly, you are right in saying that it is not
0:48:31 > 0:48:33absolutely written and sealed, but the context and the support and
0:48:33 > 0:48:39commitment is there.A lot of people would disagree with the idea that it
0:48:39 > 0:48:44has been completely resolved. Do you think this issue has been resolved?
0:48:44 > 0:48:50The draft agreement puts the UK and Ireland on a collision course as it
0:48:50 > 0:48:56it -- respects of the customs union and Ireland's -- place in those two
0:48:56 > 0:49:00institutions while maintaining there is a soft border. Can that happen?
0:49:00 > 0:49:03There are all sorts of contradictions in that paper. But it
0:49:03 > 0:49:07has to be read very carefully. There is no solution at the moment but
0:49:07 > 0:49:11they have set out a framework of the steps one has to go to in trying to
0:49:11 > 0:49:17find the solution and all of the parts that are contradictory
0:49:17 > 0:49:20promises that the UK were making to itself about the integrity of the UK
0:49:20 > 0:49:26and the parts that Ireland is interested in were bilateral
0:49:26 > 0:49:29promises about what happens in the circumstances where you cannot find
0:49:29 > 0:49:33a solution and there we have alignment and it will be an almighty
0:49:33 > 0:49:39fight.That is where the battle line will be drawn is of the solution is
0:49:39 > 0:49:42written into the agreement, and even the raid McGuinness says we have not
0:49:42 > 0:49:48got to the final endpoint, then the UK will have to maintain full
0:49:48 > 0:49:52alignment, which of course is what it says it does not want to do. The
0:49:52 > 0:49:57UK government is looking at managed divergences. Would that work for the
0:49:57 > 0:50:02party?It might be what ends up happening but no one has agreed on
0:50:02 > 0:50:06the definition of the alignment so it's impossible to know if it's been
0:50:06 > 0:50:09agreed or, in many peoples minds, that wasn't what the term was
0:50:09 > 0:50:13supposed to be used for. I think idea that there would be no hard
0:50:13 > 0:50:18border means it has been solved is not the case. Neither side wanted a
0:50:18 > 0:50:23hard border so that's not a new piece of information. And I think it
0:50:23 > 0:50:27was used as a scaremongering tactic. But it was always ridiculous to
0:50:27 > 0:50:30think the issue could be sold before we knew what the trade agreements
0:50:30 > 0:50:34would be. It's nearly impossible.If everything relating to the Irish
0:50:34 > 0:50:38border when it comes to the future trade agreement was in full
0:50:38 > 0:50:45alignment, would you agree to the UK diverging in other areas?It depends
0:50:45 > 0:50:49on what you mean by divergences. There is dispute about that and what
0:50:49 > 0:50:54other areas are talking about. Example in health, and this has not
0:50:54 > 0:50:57been discussed in the UK because there's a lack of around
0:50:57 > 0:51:03pharmaceuticals and the fact that the European success story about
0:51:03 > 0:51:07registration and control the supply of these things, if the United
0:51:07 > 0:51:11Kingdom were to divert John those sorts of issues there would be real
0:51:11 > 0:51:16problems, so if the UK, when it looks at certain sectors and perhaps
0:51:16 > 0:51:19all sectors will understand better that divergences not mean something
0:51:19 > 0:51:24is improved and in fact means it's much more difficult for us to
0:51:24 > 0:51:29continue, and remember we are close neighbours. We don't want a
0:51:29 > 0:51:32divergences of the relationship. We want that to be strong but we are in
0:51:32 > 0:51:40the difficult position that the UK decision is being respected and the
0:51:40 > 0:51:44leader did say that the support of the colleagues would be required as
0:51:44 > 0:51:48we moved into these next and more difficult phases.So is there much
0:51:48 > 0:51:54work to do?An enormous amount of work. The work we did last year is
0:51:54 > 0:52:00not, if you like, the toughest part. The hardest part is yet to come. For
0:52:00 > 0:52:05example, the transition arrangement this might be problematic. After
0:52:05 > 0:52:11March 2019, as I see it, the UK will leave but remain until 2020 when, at
0:52:11 > 0:52:14that point, there will be the shape of a new relationship summit we
0:52:14 > 0:52:19thought last year was tough, because you better bat and pad down the
0:52:19 > 0:52:24hatches because this will be more difficult.Thank you for that happy
0:52:24 > 0:52:26New Year message we'll have to look forward to.It's not something I
0:52:26 > 0:52:36want to say but sometimes you have to speak the truth.
0:52:36 > 0:52:38Now, this week the European Commission declared
0:52:38 > 0:52:41itself a leader in the war on plastics - by launching a drive
0:52:41 > 0:52:43to clean up the plastic choking oceans and filling landfills.
0:52:43 > 0:52:45But what's in their self-described 'holistic' Plastics Strategy?
0:52:45 > 0:52:47The European Union wants to ensure every piece
0:52:47 > 0:52:50of packaging on the continent is reusable or recyclable by 2030.
0:52:50 > 0:52:522030 is also the target for their aim of recycling half
0:52:52 > 0:52:54of all plastics waste generated in Europe.
0:52:54 > 0:52:57To do this £881,000 will be invested every year until 2020
0:52:57 > 0:52:59in research to modernise plastics production and making recycling
0:52:59 > 0:53:05processes more efficient.
0:53:05 > 0:53:07Frans Timmerman, the Commission Vice-President,
0:53:07 > 0:53:09said the strategy hopes to eliminate non-degradable single-use items such
0:53:09 > 0:53:17as coffee cups, stirrers, cutlery and drinking straws.
0:53:17 > 0:53:20And one Commissioner, Guenther Oettinger,
0:53:20 > 0:53:23last week floated the idea of a tax on single-use plastics to fill
0:53:23 > 0:53:29Brexit-shaped holes in the EU budget after 2020 last week.
0:53:29 > 0:53:30And while the Plastics Strategy doestn't commit
0:53:30 > 0:53:33to a plastics tax, it says it will "explore
0:53:33 > 0:53:35the feasibility of introducing measures of a fiscal nature
0:53:35 > 0:53:42at the EU level"
0:53:42 > 0:53:44I'm joined now by Apolline Roger from the environmental law
0:53:44 > 0:53:46firm Client Earth.
0:53:46 > 0:53:52Do you welcome this strategy?We do. I think it is a landmark commitment
0:53:52 > 0:53:56to tackle plastic pollution which is very good news, of course. What we
0:53:56 > 0:54:01also think is that maybe the last strategy did not go far enough to
0:54:01 > 0:54:05recognise that plastic is a pollutant. It is a pollutant for the
0:54:05 > 0:54:09environment but also for health. I think a lot of people understood the
0:54:09 > 0:54:16seriousness of the pollution that plastic causes for the environment.
0:54:16 > 0:54:20Everybody has watched the blue planet.But as a visible aspect of
0:54:20 > 0:54:25plastic pollution.How far should they have gone with their strategy?
0:54:25 > 0:54:30What would you have liked to have seen?They did very well in that
0:54:30 > 0:54:34understanding the action is needed today and not tomorrow and they did
0:54:34 > 0:54:38promise that some single use plastic or some very dangerous plastic might
0:54:38 > 0:54:43have to be banned and the commission promised that micro-plastic will be
0:54:43 > 0:54:49banned and also that degradable plastic will be banned, so that is
0:54:49 > 0:54:53good news and we are for that very closely but we think may be more
0:54:53 > 0:54:58could be done to phase out single use plastic. We all have to take
0:54:58 > 0:55:04responsibility for single use plastic.Less than £1 million per
0:55:04 > 0:55:07year, all round about that, for improving the recyclability of
0:55:07 > 0:55:12plastics. In the whole scheme of things, it's not that big a figure.
0:55:12 > 0:55:15Do you think this is a virtue signalling or will achieve
0:55:15 > 0:55:19something?I think there can be virtue signalling in this given the
0:55:19 > 0:55:23fact that the comprehensive strategy is to tackle recycling and to make
0:55:23 > 0:55:27it easier and plastic more easy to recycle I think this is actually
0:55:27 > 0:55:31quite a good step and I'm happy they haven't gone straight in for a tax
0:55:31 > 0:55:39because once you go for a big brunt of that but what they are doing is
0:55:39 > 0:55:43being quite practical note think likely in the near future plastic
0:55:43 > 0:55:47will be phased out anyway. We are living in an age of tech and
0:55:47 > 0:55:50innovation but to tackle it now and make it more easily recyclable is a
0:55:50 > 0:55:53good thing.Do you think there should be a Europewide plastic tax
0:55:53 > 0:55:59on single use items?Tax has an advantage and we saw that with a
0:55:59 > 0:56:03plastic bag tax which had a positive impact, so that is quite good. But
0:56:03 > 0:56:07what you have to understand with tax is that they focus on the consumer
0:56:07 > 0:56:11and we all have to take responsibility for plastic
0:56:11 > 0:56:15pollution. Think about it. If you want to make courgette soup and you
0:56:15 > 0:56:18are going to the supermarket and you want to buy several courgettes you
0:56:18 > 0:56:23will have to buy them three by three and wrapped in plastic. Why is that
0:56:23 > 0:56:29the case? Supermarkets here have a responsibility and a tax would be
0:56:29 > 0:56:33interesting in that.So you're not really promoting the idea of attacks
0:56:33 > 0:56:37at this stage?I think it can be useful but I think it would be
0:56:37 > 0:56:41better to get action from the market first.It could fill the hole, the
0:56:41 > 0:56:45money raised from a plastic tax across Europe, that Britain is going
0:56:45 > 0:56:51to leave when it leaves the EU.That is quite a big plastics tax.There
0:56:51 > 0:56:58is a lot of plastic.Well, yes. They are just endlessly creative about
0:56:58 > 0:57:02trying to find new ways of raising money and they are normally knocked
0:57:02 > 0:57:08back by the member states. You pick on things that are not popular.
0:57:08 > 0:57:14Plastics, pollution, bankers, foreigners, but ultimately something
0:57:14 > 0:57:18like plastics taxation, you have to do it as a national level. It's
0:57:18 > 0:57:22politically sensitive and aware it works in some countries, fine, but
0:57:22 > 0:57:28some others will never agree.Across the 27 or 28 while the UK are still
0:57:28 > 0:57:33part of it. Just briefly on the target you mentioned, is it
0:57:33 > 0:57:37achievable by 2030 with all plastic to be recyclable? Is it achievable?
0:57:37 > 0:57:44I'm not sure it's achievable and I'm not aware of in the industry. If you
0:57:44 > 0:57:46go to supermarkets and you force them to use something that will be
0:57:46 > 0:57:50more expensive than plastic, again that will be pushed onto the
0:57:50 > 0:57:53consumer so doing this at the national level is more helpful
0:57:53 > 0:57:57because they can gauge what their response will be. A lot is going to
0:57:57 > 0:58:02happen in the next ten years and decade or more, and who knows?Let's
0:58:02 > 0:58:09hope. Do you think it is achievable? The first thing would be to ban
0:58:09 > 0:58:14dangerous plastics. The plastic has to be recyclable but you cannot have
0:58:14 > 0:58:17dangerous substances in it because if not you will find them in other
0:58:17 > 0:58:21products. That is a first step. The commission is aware of it and the
0:58:21 > 0:58:26strategy does show it but quick action is needed.Now, at this
0:58:26 > 0:58:32point, will the EU dropped the idea of an EU wide tax?Sometimes
0:58:32 > 0:58:36policymakers are leading the public in an area, but I think they have
0:58:36 > 0:58:40seen a gap open public opinion and they have to fill it, and China, we
0:58:40 > 0:58:43talked about this, but they made an important decision about not buying
0:58:43 > 0:58:49in foreign plastic and taking a kind of plastic we were sending for
0:58:49 > 0:58:54recycling. That will change things and they will have to move quickly.
0:58:54 > 0:58:57Thank you for coming in. I don't think there's any plastic on the
0:58:57 > 0:58:59table.
0:58:59 > 0:59:02That's all for now, thanks to all my guests.