0:00:40 > 0:00:43Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:43 > 0:00:46Pressure mounts on the defence budget with the head of the army now
0:00:46 > 0:00:49warning the UK's ability to defend itself "will be eroded if we don't
0:00:49 > 0:00:52keep up with our adversaries".
0:00:52 > 0:00:56We'll assess if Britain's security is at risk.
0:00:56 > 0:00:59Ukip leader Henry Bolton is refusing to resign despite the party's
0:00:59 > 0:01:01governing body calling for him to do so.
0:01:01 > 0:01:04So what next for the party?
0:01:04 > 0:01:08Could the NHS receive a funding boost once we leave the EU?
0:01:08 > 0:01:10We'll look at whether calls for increased health spending
0:01:10 > 0:01:14following Brexit are realistic.
0:01:14 > 0:01:17And we'll speak to one woman who claims the Me Too
0:01:17 > 0:01:24movement has gone too far.
0:01:24 > 0:01:31The quest to right the wrongs of the past, the Me Too movement has become
0:01:31 > 0:01:36overwhelming and dangerous. It has developed a McCarthyite edge.
0:01:36 > 0:01:38All that coming up.
0:01:38 > 0:01:41And if any of the crew or myself fall ill in the next hour
0:01:41 > 0:01:44we're in very good hands, because I'm pleased to say we have
0:01:44 > 0:01:48two highly experienced medical practitioners in the studio.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51Registered nurse and now Conservative MP Maria Caulfield
0:01:51 > 0:01:54and Labour's Paul Williams, who still practises as a GP.
0:01:54 > 0:01:57Welcome to the programme.
0:01:57 > 0:02:01Well, what better way to start today than look at the NHS.
0:02:01 > 0:02:04According to reports over the weekend, Boris Johnson
0:02:04 > 0:02:08is amongst a number of senior ministers calling for the government
0:02:08 > 0:02:11to pledge an extra 100 million a week to the NHS once we've
0:02:11 > 0:02:12left the EU.
0:02:12 > 0:02:19So, is this feasible?
0:02:19 > 0:02:24Do you support that?I would welcome any additional funding to the NHS.
0:02:24 > 0:02:29This government has put in extra money and we have seen £437 million
0:02:29 > 0:02:34going to cope with the winter crisis. In my two local hospitals
0:02:34 > 0:02:39they got under £2 million each to deal with this pressure so extra
0:02:39 > 0:02:44money is always welcome.He is saying £100 million. Are you
0:02:44 > 0:02:48disappointed it is not more. The implication in the vote to leave
0:02:48 > 0:02:54campaign it would be £350 million a week.There are competing priorities
0:02:54 > 0:02:57for spending. We will hear today about defence budgets and the
0:02:57 > 0:03:01argument for why we should be spending more on that. But for me,
0:03:01 > 0:03:12my experience of working in the NHS, it is not only how much money
0:03:12 > 0:03:13it is not only how much money you are putting in the system, it is how
0:03:13 > 0:03:16the system works. We are starting to see help and social care coming
0:03:16 > 0:03:19together now. In my local area, that has transformed the experience.But
0:03:19 > 0:03:29you accept there have been certain cases, a crisis?Some parts of the
0:03:29 > 0:03:34country have definitely coped better than others. In my area social care
0:03:34 > 0:03:38and health care came together and reduced delayed discharges so that
0:03:38 > 0:03:43freed up beds. The hospital could cope with an 11% spike in the
0:03:43 > 0:03:48admissions. In my view, until health and social care comes together, it
0:03:48 > 0:03:53does not matter how much money you put into the system, it is about the
0:03:53 > 0:04:04system itself.Paul, you work in the NHS. If it as bad
0:04:04 > 0:04:06NHS. If it as bad as the headline suggests?I was thinking about this
0:04:06 > 0:04:09question last night when I was working in the local urgent care
0:04:09 > 0:04:11centre in Stockton on Tees. At the moment we do not have fully
0:04:11 > 0:04:15integrated health and social care. I was one of a group of MPs who wrote
0:04:15 > 0:04:18to the Prime Minister offering to take some of this away from the
0:04:18 > 0:04:23bashing you get in front line politics but it is not just about
0:04:23 > 0:04:27health and social care. It is about competition. We still have a problem
0:04:27 > 0:04:33where we are trying to integrate services and reduce some of these
0:04:33 > 0:04:35organisational boundaries between hospitals and community services,
0:04:35 > 0:04:39and we still have mandatory competition in the NHS. We also not
0:04:39 > 0:04:44doing enough in terms of prevention. We need to move the services out
0:04:44 > 0:04:47into the community but we have seen in the last eight years and massive
0:04:47 > 0:04:52reduction in the number of district nurses and community nurses.Paul
0:04:52 > 0:04:57mentions this letter which was signed by 90 cross-party MPs. Why
0:04:57 > 0:05:02did you not sign it?I don't think a cross-party commission is the way
0:05:02 > 0:05:07forward. We know what needs to be done. I welcome the move in a
0:05:07 > 0:05:11reshuffle where Theresa May has brought health and social care into
0:05:11 > 0:05:15one department. The question I want to ask is will the money followed
0:05:15 > 0:05:18that? Will we still use local authorities as the provider for
0:05:18 > 0:05:23social care. The fundamental shift for health and social care coming
0:05:23 > 0:05:28together is starting to happen.She has written that in the title but it
0:05:28 > 0:05:32could just be symbolic. Would you like to see someone like Maria
0:05:32 > 0:05:37signed the letter for cross-party work?I think it would be helpful.
0:05:37 > 0:05:41We have this problem where we fund the NHS nationally, but social care
0:05:41 > 0:05:49is organised locally, and also, we need social care and we need to find
0:05:49 > 0:05:53a way, as our population gets older, as we build our out of hospital
0:05:53 > 0:05:56services, we need to find a sustainable way of funding it, and
0:05:56 > 0:06:00we need to find a way that is not just attacking each other's policies
0:06:00 > 0:06:06all the time and we need a Mitchell conversation with the public.Do you
0:06:06 > 0:06:09agree that housing, environment and education are the three most
0:06:09 > 0:06:14important issues for this government, is that right?No, there
0:06:14 > 0:06:23are discussions around policy areas, and the NHS is one of those.
0:06:34 > 0:06:37Of course, housing is an important area, and so was environment, but
0:06:37 > 0:06:39there is no question that the NHS won't be a top agenda item.
0:06:39 > 0:06:41Apparently Gavin Barwell has said the Conservatives should not bother
0:06:41 > 0:06:44with the NHS, Labour always wins. A focus group says it is a lost
0:06:44 > 0:06:47electoral cause. Do you think that is the case?That is not something I
0:06:47 > 0:06:50have heard. You can see the government is making huge inroads
0:06:50 > 0:06:55into outcomes. If you look at cancer survival rates, they are improving
0:06:55 > 0:06:59greatly. If you look at MRSA, that is not the big problem it was a few
0:06:59 > 0:07:06years ago. We have got rid of mixed sex wards. Often we focus on the
0:07:06 > 0:07:11negatives that some of the health outcomes are drastically improving.
0:07:11 > 0:07:15Do you accept that and that actually the NHS was better prepared which is
0:07:15 > 0:07:18what the Prime Minister has said, even though this winter has been
0:07:18 > 0:07:23very tough.This winter was no surprise and I don't think the NHS
0:07:23 > 0:07:26has been adequately prepared. If you ask many of the children who are
0:07:26 > 0:07:29struggling with mental health problems, whether you think our
0:07:29 > 0:07:40health service is doing a good enough job, when the
0:07:40 > 0:07:42enough job, when the government's ambition is only a third of them get
0:07:42 > 0:07:44treatment instead of the 25% who currently get treatment, I think
0:07:44 > 0:07:47they will say that there is a lot more that could be done in the NHS.
0:07:47 > 0:07:53How much money would solve the NHS funding crisis?It has got to be
0:07:53 > 0:07:58about health and social care together.How much?The Labour Party
0:07:58 > 0:08:06pledged that £37 billion extra into the NHS.Would that be enough?It is
0:08:06 > 0:08:09never enough! There is an insatiable appetite in this country for health
0:08:09 > 0:08:14care. What is clear is in the first 62 years of the NHS was Mac
0:08:14 > 0:08:21existence, on average the growth was 4% but in real terms it has only
0:08:21 > 0:08:25been 1%. This is a deliberate political decision to restrain the
0:08:25 > 0:08:31amount of money for the NHS.What you say to that? Jeremy Hunt has
0:08:31 > 0:08:36called for a long-term funding settlement.I would agree that a
0:08:36 > 0:08:3910-year settlement is much more suitable. We need to take politics
0:08:39 > 0:08:44and the political cycle out of the NHS so NHS managers can make
0:08:44 > 0:08:48long-term plans. It is not just about the money. If you look in
0:08:48 > 0:08:52Wales where labour are in charge, there is an 8% greater amount of
0:08:52 > 0:08:56money spent per head of population, and yet they are still having the
0:08:56 > 0:09:00problems of ambulances queueing around the blocks and patients being
0:09:00 > 0:09:07treated in corridors. It is the money that is
0:09:10 > 0:09:12money that is being spent.And they had a letter written to the Labour
0:09:12 > 0:09:15run government complaining about a lack of funding in Wales. So the
0:09:15 > 0:09:18money is still not enough. If it ever enough?We have got to get the
0:09:18 > 0:09:21right strategy and that has got to involve prevention. It has got to
0:09:21 > 0:09:25involve taking services away from hospitals and building really good
0:09:25 > 0:09:29community and health care services. It has got to be done in an
0:09:29 > 0:09:32environment where we are not encouraging organisations to compete
0:09:32 > 0:09:36with each other. We are not worrying about private sector involvement and
0:09:36 > 0:09:42the things we have learned from the Carillion scandal. We need to have
0:09:42 > 0:09:45collaboration and that will involve us taking competition out of the
0:09:45 > 0:09:52NHS.Do you think it was helpful to say it was disappointing not to get
0:09:52 > 0:09:59a positive response to cross-party work and warned his party would get
0:09:59 > 0:10:02a reality check. Heidi Allen said the response was not good enough and
0:10:02 > 0:10:08Sarah will list and called on the Prime Minister to reconsider. --
0:10:08 > 0:10:11Sarah Wollaston.Colleagues are entitled to write to the Prime
0:10:11 > 0:10:15Minister and give their views. My opinion is a cross-party commission
0:10:15 > 0:10:19will only tell us what we already know and we need to get on with the
0:10:19 > 0:10:25job. That is what Jeremy Hunt is doing. We have a health and social
0:10:25 > 0:10:30care Department. In my local area we have opened up new community beds in
0:10:30 > 0:10:34New Haven and that has stopped people who do not need to go into
0:10:34 > 0:10:40hospital but are not ready to be at home to stay in community beds, and
0:10:40 > 0:10:44to enable delayed discharges to get out and free up beds for acute
0:10:44 > 0:10:47admissions and that works. We don't need to talk about it, we need to
0:10:47 > 0:10:51get on and deliver it.Lets leave it there.
0:10:51 > 0:10:53Now it's time for our daily quiz.
0:10:53 > 0:10:55The question for today is Cabinet Office Minister David Lidington has
0:10:55 > 0:10:58confirmed what will NOT happen to mark the moment the UK
0:10:58 > 0:10:59leave the EU next year?
0:10:59 > 0:11:00Was it...
0:11:00 > 0:11:02The White Cliffs of Dover will be lit up...
0:11:02 > 0:11:04Big Ben will chime...
0:11:04 > 0:11:05Street parties...
0:11:05 > 0:11:08Or the pub licensing hours will be extended?
0:11:08 > 0:11:11At the end of the show Maria and Paul will give us
0:11:11 > 0:11:16the correct answer.
0:11:16 > 0:11:18The crisis in Ukip is deepening.
0:11:18 > 0:11:20Today three more key figures in the party have resigned,
0:11:20 > 0:11:22over their leader, Henry Bolton's refusal to resign.
0:11:22 > 0:11:24Yesterday the party's NEC backed a motion of no
0:11:24 > 0:11:26confidence in Mr Bolton, but he is hanging on,
0:11:26 > 0:11:30and so party members will now vote on his future.
0:11:30 > 0:11:34Mr Bolton has been under immense pressure after it was revealed
0:11:34 > 0:11:37that his now former girlfriend made racist comments
0:11:37 > 0:11:41about Prince Harry's fiancee Meghan Markle.
0:11:41 > 0:11:44She's apologised and said they were taken of context.
0:11:44 > 0:11:46Yesterday on the Sunday Politics, Henry Bolton was asked
0:11:46 > 0:11:52by Sarah Smith why he's refusing to go.
0:11:52 > 0:11:57It's going to disrupt us. It will take three to five months of a
0:11:57 > 0:12:03refocusing on that election, it will take us off the battlefield for the
0:12:03 > 0:12:08Brexit debate. We cannot afford to do that politically. At the same
0:12:08 > 0:12:11time, the infighting that will result will give our political
0:12:11 > 0:12:15enemies more than enough ammunition to pull the party apart. In fact, if
0:12:15 > 0:12:20the NEC makes the wrong decision today, the party will start doing
0:12:20 > 0:12:24that itself. Politically, this party cannot afford to have a leadership
0:12:24 > 0:12:30election now.Just to be clear, regardless of whether the NEC vote
0:12:30 > 0:12:35no confidence, you will stay on as party leader and you will have some
0:12:35 > 0:12:43contact with Jo Marney?I will have some contact.
0:12:43 > 0:12:45We can speak to Ukip MEP Gerard Batten who was
0:12:45 > 0:12:48the party's Brexit Spokesman but who resigned yesterday.
0:12:48 > 0:12:53They are dropping like flies. The party is collapsing.The party is
0:12:53 > 0:12:56not collapsing because they are staying with Ukip. They say Henry
0:12:56 > 0:13:01should go. Mrs Thatcher, even when she had far more support in the Tory
0:13:01 > 0:13:06party and then he has got, she decided the game was up and decided
0:13:06 > 0:13:11to resign. I am afraid he is not facing reality. We have been very
0:13:11 > 0:13:14generous to Henry. We are not getting into discussions about his
0:13:14 > 0:13:22private life. The whole thing has got worse
0:13:22 > 0:13:24got worse with the revelations you are talking about, tweets and
0:13:24 > 0:13:27e-mails, and he has not been able to shut this down and control it. That
0:13:27 > 0:13:31is why he has got to go because he is not managing the situation.It is
0:13:31 > 0:13:35all the resignations which has kept this story in the headlines. Jo
0:13:35 > 0:13:39Marney has apologised. Henry Bolton said they are no longer romantically
0:13:39 > 0:13:43linked but they are still in contact, and yet this crisis rumbles
0:13:43 > 0:13:49on.These people did not resign until yesterday with the unanimous
0:13:49 > 0:13:53vote by the NEC that they could not support him. I thought he might have
0:13:53 > 0:13:57some support among the NEC but once they listened to him, and points of
0:13:57 > 0:14:02view were exchanged, and the meeting went on for three hours, they
0:14:02 > 0:14:05decided to vote unanimously. He does not have the support of key people
0:14:05 > 0:14:11in the party and he has got to go. But he is hanging on.Does he want
0:14:11 > 0:14:15to be the man who goes down in history as the man who destroyed
0:14:15 > 0:14:22Ukip?
0:14:22 > 0:14:24Ukip? If we don't resolve this, our activists, candidates, donors, or
0:14:24 > 0:14:27the key people who make the party run will be disillusioned and walk
0:14:27 > 0:14:31away.You think this could mark the end of Ukip if Henry Bolton refuses
0:14:31 > 0:14:37to step down?If this is attracted. We have 28 days and to the EGM. If
0:14:37 > 0:14:40the EGM endorses the National executive committee and he still
0:14:40 > 0:14:44refuses to go, we have to have a leadership election. Indeed if he
0:14:44 > 0:14:47goes, we have to have a leadership election but we could put in an
0:14:47 > 0:14:54interim leader to steady the party through the local election period. I
0:14:54 > 0:14:58offered my services as did Mike Hookem. Neither of us have ambitions
0:14:58 > 0:15:02to be leader but we are prepared to step in and guide the party through
0:15:02 > 0:15:07the difficult period.You say this is a crisis which could end with the
0:15:07 > 0:15:10collapsing of the party if Henry Bolton doesn't take the action you
0:15:10 > 0:15:18think you need to do, but there have been seven leaders. Surely Ukip have
0:15:18 > 0:15:22already -- are already in crisis?We have been written off more times
0:15:22 > 0:15:26than Count Dracula. The people who make up this party are motivated by
0:15:26 > 0:15:30genuine belief in making our country and independent sovereign nation
0:15:30 > 0:15:35again and we are the only people who fulfil that market segment, if you
0:15:35 > 0:15:38like. The Conservative Party doesn't really want to leave, the Labour
0:15:38 > 0:15:42Party doesn't seem to know what its policy of anyway and we are the only
0:15:42 > 0:15:46people who have been consistent over 25 years about leaving the European
0:15:46 > 0:15:51Union and restoring our country as an independent democratic nation
0:15:51 > 0:15:55state.
0:15:55 > 0:16:00What about the membership? We had 29%. Let us say gets all of his
0:16:00 > 0:16:03support turning out and they vote for him to stay, will you accept
0:16:03 > 0:16:07that? Well, yes, if they vote to keep him, but I don't see that
0:16:07 > 0:16:11happening. What I hear from our head office is about, and this was before
0:16:11 > 0:16:15the meeting on Sunday, 90% of the communications were against Henry,
0:16:15 > 0:16:21with about 10 for, I have had literally dozens and hundreds of
0:16:21 > 0:16:24e-mail, text, phone calls from people asking me, you know, is he
0:16:24 > 0:16:28going to go is this we need to move on and he needs to resign. I don't
0:16:28 > 0:16:34think he has much support among the ordinary members. You don't think he
0:16:34 > 0:16:39will win that vote. You say you don't have ambitions to be leader.
0:16:39 > 0:16:42Henry Bolton said it will end the party if there is another leadership
0:16:42 > 0:16:47contest. It will end the party if he stay, he
0:16:47 > 0:16:51is not Ukip. It is made up of activists who devote their own time
0:16:51 > 0:16:56and effort for this. He is not Ukip. They are Ukip, and they have said
0:16:56 > 0:16:59through the National Executive committee, you can bet your life
0:16:59 > 0:17:03they are taken soundings from local members about what they should do
0:17:03 > 0:17:07before reaching that decision, they have made that decision. How much
0:17:07 > 0:17:11will it cost to run a leadership electionI don't know. We will have
0:17:11 > 0:17:16to hire a venue, I have been told the backers of the party who are not
0:17:16 > 0:17:22donating money while we are in this party will put money forward to have
0:17:22 > 0:17:27a meeting to get rid of him.Which donors are you talking about? I am
0:17:27 > 0:17:31not going to name them. That may fund what you are planning to do, is
0:17:31 > 0:17:37the party in a very poor financial situation? I wouldn't say it in a
0:17:37 > 0:17:42great one but every political party has had financial crisis, this is
0:17:42 > 0:17:46because politics is a black hole into which you pour money. That is
0:17:46 > 0:17:51the case, our weakness is we can't sell people knighthoods and
0:17:51 > 0:17:56Lordships, and we don't have the big trade unions behind us. Can you
0:17:56 > 0:18:03afford to run a leadership contest? We will fine -- find way. Are you
0:18:03 > 0:18:06down to your last few pence? I am not the treasurer, I know we
0:18:06 > 0:18:10are in a difficult position but we still have a party and it is
0:18:10 > 0:18:14maintaining itself. Would you join Nigel Farage's party if he starts a
0:18:14 > 0:18:20new one. No. Is he starting one? I don't know. He said he was aren't
0:18:20 > 0:18:24then he wasn't so I have to take his last statement as being true. I only
0:18:24 > 0:18:28know what I read in The Papers, I believe he was reported as saying
0:18:28 > 0:18:33that and denied it. Do you think it is a good idea for him to start a
0:18:33 > 0:18:34new party, bearing in mind the chaos?
0:18:34 > 0:18:39It wouldn't be a party, it would be the Nigel Farage fan club, I have
0:18:39 > 0:18:43had a tremendous admiration for what he does well, he was the best
0:18:43 > 0:18:47representative of the Leave side in the whole campaign, he won that from
0:18:47 > 0:18:52the media point of view, he is fantastic at that kind of thing. Why
0:18:52 > 0:18:58would you want to start a new one when he could come back, if he put
0:18:58 > 0:19:02his hat any am sure he would be elected. How many have you got still
0:19:02 > 0:19:09in position? Five or six have gone, I can't see many are going to stay.
0:19:09 > 0:19:15You could have nobody in position. Yes, but I resigned as the Brexit
0:19:15 > 0:19:19spokesman for Henry but I am happening to -- happy to talk about
0:19:19 > 0:19:31it at the drop of a hat.
0:19:40 > 0:19:44Now, on Europe,'s doorstep. General Carter will point out that the
0:19:44 > 0:19:47Russian army demonstrated its capability, by carrying out massive
0:19:47 > 0:19:53drills near the border with Europe, last September. And he will say that
0:19:53 > 0:20:00Russia used long range missiles in Syria which were deployed from a
0:20:00 > 0:20:04rage of 1500 kilometre, he will warn cyber ware fare can be used on the
0:20:04 > 0:20:07battlefield and to disrupt normal people's lives.
0:20:07 > 0:20:11It is thought that the general's intervention has been sanctioned by
0:20:11 > 0:20:15the Defence Secretary who is trying to make the case for defence
0:20:15 > 0:20:21spending in cabinet. This comes as the Ministry of Defence is
0:20:21 > 0:20:24reportedly trying to make 20 billion of efficiency savings to fund new
0:20:24 > 0:20:29military equipment. And there is also an ongoing review of the UK's
0:20:29 > 0:20:33security capabilities which is being carried out by the Government's
0:20:33 > 0:20:35national security adviser Mark said
0:20:35 > 0:20:37by the Government's national
0:20:37 > 0:20:39I can now speak to the Times' Defence Editor Deborah Haynes.
0:20:39 > 0:20:43well. Welcome. General Sir nick Carter says we are struggling to
0:20:43 > 0:20:48keep up with the likes of Russia in terms of signer ware fare and
0:20:48 > 0:20:50conventional capability, does that sound plausible to you?
0:20:50 > 0:20:54Very much so. It is what people are been saying behind the scenes for a
0:20:54 > 0:21:01long time. I think the important fact is that Sir Nick has been
0:21:01 > 0:21:04sanctioned to talk about this publicly, which underlines the
0:21:04 > 0:21:10seriousness of the challenge. How unusual is that, that he does seem
0:21:10 > 0:21:15to have been given permission by the Defence Secretary? It is incredibly
0:21:15 > 0:21:20unusual. It contrasts with what the chiefs were allowed to say under the
0:21:20 > 0:21:24previous Defence Secretary Sir Michael Fallon. The Government says
0:21:24 > 0:21:27they are spending more on defence, why is there so much pressure on
0:21:27 > 0:21:31this MoD budget? That is a good question, so the
0:21:31 > 0:21:35defence budget is rising in real terms year on year. It is a
0:21:35 > 0:21:39protected budget so lots of other departments look at defence with
0:21:39 > 0:21:47envy, the equip it they have to buy, such as nuclear armed submarine,
0:21:47 > 0:21:50fighter jet, warships, that is affected by what is called defence
0:21:50 > 0:21:54inflation and the rate of defence inflation, so that the amount of
0:21:54 > 0:22:02money you spend on a widget, last year compared to next year, is much
0:22:02 > 0:22:06higher than the 0.5 in the defence budget. The other factor is a lot of
0:22:06 > 0:22:10the spending that the Government's committed to, for defence, is
0:22:10 > 0:22:16contingent on the MoD making rather challenging efficiency savings, the
0:22:16 > 0:22:20permanent secretary put them at about 20 billion over the next ten
0:22:20 > 0:22:23year, and they are not achieving that at the moment. And therefore,
0:22:23 > 0:22:29in order to keep going, in order to keep, to stand still they are having
0:22:29 > 0:22:34to cut training, ammunition stores, spare parts, so the Armed Forces are
0:22:34 > 0:22:37being hollowed out at a time when adversaries are increasing their
0:22:37 > 0:22:47capability. How is the battle between the two
0:22:47 > 0:22:51going? Gavin Williamson came into the MoD at the beginning of
0:22:51 > 0:22:56November, and at that time, he was presented with a series of options,
0:22:56 > 0:23:02that the Armed Forces had been forced to draw up as part of this
0:23:02 > 0:23:06capability review, which proposed rather stark cuts to the armed
0:23:06 > 0:23:11force, cuts in manpower, up to 14,000 personnel, cuts in warship,
0:23:11 > 0:23:16helicopters, a whole range of different capabilities, which would
0:23:16 > 0:23:19not have been acceptable politically, to many backbench Tory
0:23:19 > 0:23:24MPs, and also, would not be acceptable for the country at a time
0:23:24 > 0:23:28of intensifying threats, so there is a battle to try and wake the public
0:23:28 > 0:23:33up to this, wake them up to the fact that the security we enjoy, is not
0:23:33 > 0:23:39ours by right, it is not guaranteed. Even in the US they have released a
0:23:39 > 0:23:43national defence strategy on Friday, in which it is very stark that they
0:23:43 > 0:23:49talk about countries such as China, and Russian, -- Russia being the
0:23:49 > 0:23:52primary focus, they talk about interstate competition as opposed to
0:23:52 > 0:23:58terrorism, which has been the focus, and so there is a shift in awareness
0:23:58 > 0:24:03about how the west's kind of military edge is eroding and the
0:24:03 > 0:24:09need to do something about that. Thank you.
0:24:09 > 0:24:11Listening to that was former First Sea Lord
0:24:11 > 0:24:12and Security Minister Lord West.
0:24:12 > 0:24:16Welcome. Do you agree with the general, that the Armed Forces need
0:24:16 > 0:24:22more money in order particularly as he says to counter threats from the
0:24:22 > 0:24:28likes of Russia?
0:24:28 > 0:24:33likes of Russia? They are an threat to the nation. It is not tan
0:24:33 > 0:24:37existential threat. There is no doubt, rather than by design, error
0:24:37 > 0:24:41if you look at how Putin is behaving such a thing could happen. Not very
0:24:41 > 0:24:45far away, in that sense, but Deborah talked about the need to spend more
0:24:45 > 0:24:49money, lots of money on new equipment. Is that where the
0:24:49 > 0:24:55pressure lies, that it is actually, the desire of the MoD, to spend
0:24:55 > 0:25:02money on impressive new equipment and savings need to be found? You
0:25:02 > 0:25:06are buying equipment that makes it capable for you to fight in a war.
0:25:06 > 0:25:09So for example if you are buying a ship it is difficult to swim to
0:25:09 > 0:25:14where you are getting to, so you need these thing, and, I think the
0:25:14 > 0:25:20problem stems back further. When you look back to 2010, Hammond was the
0:25:20 > 0:25:24Secretary of State for Defence, he talked of the black hole. I found
0:25:24 > 0:25:30that extraordinary, 34 billion black hole. He said I've solved: Now we
0:25:30 > 0:25:35have a 25 billion black hole because there is always a list of orders
0:25:35 > 0:25:39coming up that don't have money. If you don't allow for the defence
0:25:39 > 0:25:43inflation, that Deborah was talking about, you start getting into real
0:25:43 > 0:25:48problemsen, and add to that the cost of exchange rate, that is a real
0:25:48 > 0:25:54pressure. How would you characterise Britain'sable to immediate meet a
0:25:54 > 0:26:01threat from the likes ofRussia?We would fight as par of Nato, we have
0:26:01 > 0:26:06been an important part of Nato. 25% of all military defence spending has
0:26:06 > 0:26:12been UK's, that has been mittled away since 2010. -- whittled. Our
0:26:12 > 0:26:16capability has reduced by a third since 2010, if the cuts they are
0:26:16 > 0:26:19talking about now, the Government says they are not going to take
0:26:19 > 0:26:23those, if they were taken it would be a 50% cut since 2010, can you
0:26:23 > 0:26:27imagine if we cut half our hospitals in this country suddenly. What do
0:26:27 > 0:26:32you say to that? You said earlier that there is a call of course on
0:26:32 > 0:26:35all budgets, where would you put defence spending?
0:26:35 > 0:26:40Every department is going to be calling o the Chancellor. Where
0:26:40 > 0:26:46would would you put defence? It should be the number one priority
0:26:46 > 0:26:50and Gavin Williamson is making the case for why that should be there,
0:26:50 > 0:26:56we are committed to 2% of GDP spending and we are the second
0:26:56 > 0:27:02biggest spender in Nato on defence. Interestingly, we spend just over
0:27:02 > 0:27:06£50 billion a year on debt interest payments which would cover the whole
0:27:06 > 0:27:10budget and that is the tough choice the Chancellor has to make. While he
0:27:10 > 0:27:13is having to pay the payments on debt, money that could be going into
0:27:13 > 0:27:18public services, whether it is the NHS or defence... Which choice would
0:27:18 > 0:27:23you make? It is not mine to make. It has to be number one or two in
0:27:23 > 0:27:29priority. You have said we would fight as part of a Nato force, the
0:27:29 > 0:27:36fact we wouldn't be contributing in the way we have in the past, does it
0:27:36 > 0:27:40matter? Nato won't be able to do what it is meant to do and when you
0:27:40 > 0:27:44say it is not affordable. Having been a minister myself, Governments
0:27:44 > 0:27:49can afford things when they feel it is necessary to afford them.
0:27:49 > 0:27:52Admittedly you have to squeeze other areas but if they believe defence
0:27:52 > 0:27:56and security of the nation is the highest priority of any Government,
0:27:56 > 0:28:00and I can't believe any Government, no Prime Minister, no senior
0:28:00 > 0:28:02minister has ever said other than that, they have to put their Monday
0:28:02 > 0:28:07where their mouth is. At the moment, we are definitely, we are standing
0:28:07 > 0:28:13into danger, we are at real risk. Does Jeremy Corbyn feel that way? I
0:28:13 > 0:28:18think so, yes, Labour has committed in the election, to the 2% national
0:28:18 > 0:28:21spend on defence, and it is absolutely right that we listen to
0:28:21 > 0:28:25the experts on this, if we are putting our people potentially at
0:28:25 > 0:28:28harms way, they need to be given exactly the right equipment and
0:28:28 > 0:28:32another issue as well is they need to be paid properly. I think our
0:28:32 > 0:28:36Armed Forces have seen a real terms reduction in pay, as well as in
0:28:36 > 0:28:40numbers but a real terms reduction in pay since 2010. It is time to
0:28:40 > 0:28:46lift the pay cap as well. Would you be one support porting the idea of
0:28:46 > 0:28:48boosting funding for Britain's defences to stand up to any threat
0:28:48 > 0:28:52from Russia? And do you think Jeremy Corbyn would back that too? I do,
0:28:52 > 0:28:58yes, and I would, yes. What ability Gavin Williamson the new Defence
0:28:58 > 0:29:03Secretary, is he a good thing? He strikes me as a good thing, I wrote
0:29:03 > 0:29:06a letter when he took over saying he will be judged by the military and
0:29:06 > 0:29:09the nation as to whether he has managed to get the resources needed
0:29:09 > 0:29:13to ensure the defence of our nation,ing it seems he is trying to
0:29:13 > 0:29:17do that. This is highly unusual for a serving is chief, it is unusual
0:29:17 > 0:29:21for a serving chief to be allowed to talk about the real threats and say
0:29:21 > 0:29:26this is a risk, to say we need more money, I have never in my 52 years
0:29:26 > 0:29:29in the Navy I have never come across that, that is really a different
0:29:29 > 0:29:33thing. So there is a lot of pressure, building up, isn't there
0:29:33 > 0:29:37and there is going to be some sort of battle. It has started between
0:29:37 > 0:29:41the Defence Secretary and Treasury, what do you make of what could be a
0:29:41 > 0:29:46showdown between the two? You have said all department battle for
0:29:46 > 0:29:49Monday, if this is European what would you say to the Chancellor?
0:29:49 > 0:29:54There is is a lot of support on the backbenches for the defence and for
0:29:54 > 0:29:58defence spending and when there was talk of reducing the 2%,
0:29:58 > 0:30:03backbenchers came out in support of maintaining that spending. Every
0:30:03 > 0:30:07department has to make its case in terms of fighting for the small pot
0:30:07 > 0:30:11of Michelle Obama there is. You said it was led by Jonny Mercer who is a
0:30:11 > 0:30:15former soldier, he was on this programme saying he wanted to hold
0:30:15 > 0:30:18the Government's feet to fire on defence spending. Do you think the
0:30:18 > 0:30:20Government will have to find more money?
0:30:20 > 0:30:23We have to summoned to changing threats and that is part of the
0:30:23 > 0:30:26problem in terms of why there needs to be more spending on defence, the
0:30:26 > 0:30:32nature of the threat is changing, and you have to invest in the
0:30:32 > 0:30:38equipment in order to ensure security is up to that threat.
0:30:38 > 0:30:44Where could savings be found?In defence? It is a problem because we
0:30:44 > 0:30:50have taken so many savings out of defence. I think it would be a rash
0:30:50 > 0:30:54thing to say that nothing, but we have taken saving after saving after
0:30:54 > 0:31:00saving. The latest thing with these efficiencies, we have taken so many
0:31:00 > 0:31:03for so many years, they stopped being efficiencies. They start being
0:31:03 > 0:31:08cuts. That does not mean we cannot find little bit here and there, but
0:31:08 > 0:31:13effectively, the cupboard is bare. We have taken a real hit. The size
0:31:13 > 0:31:18of our forces, the capability, the hollowing out is really extremely
0:31:18 > 0:31:27worrying.
0:31:27 > 0:31:29worrying. There is a huge groundswell on the backbenches and
0:31:29 > 0:31:31in the House of Lords. I have monitored this. There is a huge
0:31:31 > 0:31:34groundswell thing we cannot go on like this.How serious is this?I
0:31:34 > 0:31:40think it is very serious. In the Commons there are 40 or so Tory MPs
0:31:40 > 0:31:45who say we cannot go on like this. But what can we do? If Philip
0:31:45 > 0:31:49Hammond says that is it and the £20 billion worth of spending cuts or
0:31:49 > 0:31:54savings will have them, what will they do?The first secretary of the
0:31:54 > 0:31:57Treasury is always the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister has
0:31:57 > 0:32:01got to think about the nation and sometimes you have to do things that
0:32:01 > 0:32:05might not seem expedient politically in the short term but it is for the
0:32:05 > 0:32:10good of the nation. She will have to look at this very closely.Can use
0:32:10 > 0:32:14the revolt on the backbenches because of this?I certainly could
0:32:14 > 0:32:17if they implement the savings they have talked about. The government
0:32:17 > 0:32:21say they have not been presented to us but they do not pop up from
0:32:21 > 0:32:27nowhere. I think there would.Just finally, the review that has been
0:32:27 > 0:32:31carried out by the government's National Security adviser Mark
0:32:31 > 0:32:37Sedwill, there are reports that he has been trying to refocus the Army
0:32:37 > 0:32:40away from conventional forces towards cyber terrorism, would that
0:32:40 > 0:32:49concern you?Side is very important and we have got to focus on it. --
0:32:49 > 0:32:53cyber is important. You still need that capability. I would rather
0:32:53 > 0:32:56somebody through a computer at me than hit me with a shell. You have
0:32:56 > 0:33:07got to be a bit careful and wary of how the balances.I will not throw
0:33:07 > 0:33:09anything at you. Thank you.
0:33:09 > 0:33:10Is politics getting too nasty?
0:33:10 > 0:33:13Many are expressing concern that the language being used by some
0:33:13 > 0:33:14politicians is poisoning the debate.
0:33:14 > 0:33:17Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell has again been forced to defend comments
0:33:17 > 0:33:20he made in 2014 where he quoted campaigners calling for Conservative
0:33:20 > 0:33:21MP Esther McVey to be lynched.
0:33:21 > 0:33:22Yesterday Andrew Marr asked John McDonnell
0:33:22 > 0:33:25whether he would apologise for them.
0:33:25 > 0:33:30I said then I did not support what was happening, of course I did not
0:33:30 > 0:33:34support that. It is for those people who made that statement to make that
0:33:34 > 0:33:39apology. Let me just say this. I made a statement impala and then of
0:33:39 > 0:33:44course I don't support this. I wish harm to nobody. But what I do want
0:33:44 > 0:33:48people to think about was the government's policies they were
0:33:48 > 0:33:55pursuing against disabled people who were suffering -- I made a statement
0:33:55 > 0:34:01in Parliament.Should he apologise for those comments? There were
0:34:01 > 0:34:06comments calling for Esther McVey to be lynched.They were totally
0:34:06 > 0:34:11inappropriate comments. I think everybody in public life has a real
0:34:11 > 0:34:14responsibility with the language used to make sure we keep standards
0:34:14 > 0:34:19really high and to make sure we have to remember that when we are
0:34:19 > 0:34:23criticising each other, we have criticised each other today, we are
0:34:23 > 0:34:27political opponents but we are not enemies and we should keep
0:34:27 > 0:34:31standards- and anybody who steps outside of those standards should be
0:34:31 > 0:34:36prepared to say sorry if they get it wrong.Do think he has stepped
0:34:36 > 0:34:41outside those standards and should say sorry?Other Labour MPs have
0:34:41 > 0:34:48suggested that as well. The comments he made yesterday made clear that he
0:34:48 > 0:34:54was quoting, he did not support what was said. The comments around
0:34:54 > 0:35:01lynching were totally inappropriate. Let's turn to Labour's Sheffield MP
0:35:01 > 0:35:04Jared O'Mara. He is still suspended because of derogatory comments he
0:35:04 > 0:35:09made online. Some of which we cannot repeat on the programme. Are you
0:35:09 > 0:35:14frustrated there has not been a conclusion into that enquiry?It has
0:35:14 > 0:35:19been months. It is bad for his health as well but this has not come
0:35:19 > 0:35:23to any conclusion. I think if anybody, if there were any
0:35:23 > 0:35:27allegations made against anybody, they should be thoroughly
0:35:27 > 0:35:35investigated. People have a right to reply, innocent until proven guilty.
0:35:35 > 0:35:38But any decisions should be swift. It does seem that both of those
0:35:38 > 0:35:41comments have been ones where women have been the victims as well. I
0:35:41 > 0:35:45think it is particularly tough for women in politics that there is a
0:35:45 > 0:35:50lot of potentially misogynist abuse as well.UI knew because you were
0:35:50 > 0:35:56elected in the snap election, what is your view? Do you think standards
0:35:56 > 0:36:01are being maintained in the Labour Party? -- you are new.I think the
0:36:01 > 0:36:05Labour Party needs to hear disciplinary cases and in other
0:36:05 > 0:36:09parties as well. This is not particularly a party political
0:36:09 > 0:36:13issue. But I have also seen the nature of abuse that is coming from
0:36:13 > 0:36:18the public as well. When leaders are not setting the tone it is reflected
0:36:18 > 0:36:24in public comments.Let's talk about the Conservative MP Ben Bradley. He
0:36:24 > 0:36:28has written blogs which were revealed by Buzzfeed and then
0:36:28 > 0:36:33deleted where he called people claiming benefits of vast sea of
0:36:33 > 0:36:39unemployed wasters.He has apologised and there is a big
0:36:39 > 0:36:46difference between a man writing a blog before he becomes an MP to John
0:36:46 > 0:36:51McDonnell not apologising for comments about lynching a female MP.
0:36:51 > 0:36:55He's still a vice-chair of the Conservative Party. Is it acceptable
0:36:55 > 0:37:00that someone of that position of influence wrote in tweets saying he
0:37:00 > 0:37:08had watched the police play
0:37:08 > 0:37:12had watched the police play splat the chav during the London riots. Is
0:37:12 > 0:37:17that acceptable language from an MP even though he was not elected them?
0:37:17 > 0:37:22If we want people to come from a variety of backgrounds who are not
0:37:22 > 0:37:26professional politicians, they will make mistakes. This is not something
0:37:26 > 0:37:31he wrote in the last year, it was several years ago. He has
0:37:31 > 0:37:35apologised. If he did something like that while he was elected as an MP,
0:37:35 > 0:37:40that would be different.What about comparing it to Jared O'Mara because
0:37:40 > 0:37:46he also wrote his comments several years before he became an MP and yet
0:37:46 > 0:37:49the Conservatives were extremely quick to condemn him and said Jeremy
0:37:49 > 0:37:55Corbyn had turned a blind eye to this behaviour.I have not heard
0:37:55 > 0:37:59that he has apologised for his comments. His comments are quite
0:37:59 > 0:38:07violent in nature and quite abusive. How would you describe the comments
0:38:07 > 0:38:13by Ben Bradley?I don't think they should be acceptable.He said
0:38:13 > 0:38:17unemployed people should have vasectomy is. That was not long ago.
0:38:17 > 0:38:22It was several years ago and it was long before he was up for election
0:38:22 > 0:38:27and he has apologised. The difference between him and John
0:38:27 > 0:38:31McDonnell...You keep referring to John McDonnell. He said he was
0:38:31 > 0:38:35quoting somebody else and the audience can take the view about
0:38:35 > 0:38:39whether that is enough of John McDonnell. In terms of equal
0:38:39 > 0:38:43behaviour between the Labour MP Jared O'Mara who has been suspended,
0:38:43 > 0:38:48why has Ben Bradley not been suspended?That is not my call to
0:38:48 > 0:38:54make.Should he be?I accept his apology. He said that is not the
0:38:54 > 0:39:01sort of comment he will make in the future. If we do want ordinary
0:39:01 > 0:39:03people and not professional politicians, people are crying out
0:39:03 > 0:39:06for ordinary people to come into politics and they will make
0:39:06 > 0:39:10mistakes. I think they have apologised and seen the error of
0:39:10 > 0:39:15their ways, that should be accepted. What you think it says about them
0:39:15 > 0:39:22Bradley's attitude to those on benefits and low incomes?I cannot
0:39:22 > 0:39:28speak for Ben. You need to speak to him. What I am feeling as a female
0:39:28 > 0:39:32MP is this issue around violence and threats is something that four new
0:39:32 > 0:39:36MPs is very real. I have had several death threats and lots of abuse.
0:39:36 > 0:39:40They does not help when politicians in the position of the Shadow
0:39:40 > 0:39:44Chancellor are encouraging that sort of behaviour. It is really putting
0:39:44 > 0:39:49off women coming into politics. One of the key findings we found in this
0:39:49 > 0:39:52centenary of suffrage who are not coming into politics, it is because
0:39:52 > 0:39:58of the abuse and threats they get online.Do you think Ben Bradley
0:39:58 > 0:40:03should keep his position?I think that is a matter for the
0:40:03 > 0:40:06Conservative Party. I want to echo the comments that we want people who
0:40:06 > 0:40:10are real people to come into politics. A friend of mine Alex
0:40:10 > 0:40:14Sobel gave a speech on Thursday about his family's experience of the
0:40:14 > 0:40:19Holocaust. It was very emotional. It was posted online and he has been
0:40:19 > 0:40:25subjected to the most horrible, vile anti-Semitic abuse. Not by
0:40:25 > 0:40:29politicians and political activists but by members of the public and
0:40:29 > 0:40:35right-wing
0:40:35 > 0:40:37right-wing extremists. I think the effect of sometimes politicians
0:40:37 > 0:40:40using really bad language about the public might mean the public start
0:40:40 > 0:40:42using other bad language and none of that is acceptable. We need to have
0:40:42 > 0:40:46a really high standard and keep the ten really high.I do think we need
0:40:46 > 0:40:51to lead by example and share mutual respect. We may argue about policy
0:40:51 > 0:40:57and political differences but we should have mutual respect for it
0:40:57 > 0:41:00other.All right.
0:41:00 > 0:41:02Today, America's Secretary of State Rex Tillerson
0:41:02 > 0:41:04will be in London to meet Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson.
0:41:04 > 0:41:07Then tomorrow, the Foreign Secretary may raise his calls for an extra
0:41:07 > 0:41:12£100 million a week for the NHS at the Cabinet meeting.
0:41:12 > 0:41:16On Wednesday, new Northern Ireland Secretary Karen Bradley will host
0:41:16 > 0:41:21a fresh round of political talks aimed at restoring power-sharing.
0:41:21 > 0:41:24And Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn will meet over
0:41:24 > 0:41:28the dispatch box for PMQs.
0:41:28 > 0:41:34The Prime Minister will then travel to Switzerland on Thursday
0:41:34 > 0:41:37for the World Economic Forum in Davos where she is expected
0:41:37 > 0:41:39to meet US President Donald Trump.
0:41:39 > 0:41:47Labour's John McDonnell is also going to attend.
0:41:52 > 0:41:56We are joined by Lynn Davidson from the Sun and the Guardian's Jessica
0:41:56 > 0:42:04Elgot. One comment said we have a government of boiled rabbits and
0:42:04 > 0:42:08accused Theresa May of timidity and other ministers have joined in. How
0:42:08 > 0:42:16serious is this from MPs?Nick Boyle is a popular backbencher. He is
0:42:16 > 0:42:24someone that Nick Timothy said he thoughts should have a Cabinet post
0:42:24 > 0:42:27this time around. What he is saying here with the boiled rabbit phrase
0:42:27 > 0:42:33which I think was borrowed from George Orwell, is that May is not
0:42:33 > 0:42:37allowing ministers who might have big bold reform and agendas for
0:42:37 > 0:42:40their parliament, to do anything. She is really good at putting the
0:42:40 > 0:42:49brakes on ideas but not that good at giving the wind to sail in. One of
0:42:49 > 0:42:54the people he is perhaps thinking of is Michael Gove, a close friend of
0:42:54 > 0:43:00his and Sajid Javid is at housing. If you look at May's reshuffle, that
0:43:00 > 0:43:06kind of people she promoted were a very safe pair of hands people,
0:43:06 > 0:43:09people like David Gauke, the new Secretary of State for Justice. I
0:43:09 > 0:43:12think some MPs and Conservative backbenchers are frustrated that
0:43:12 > 0:43:17some of the bold things that May said at the beginning of her
0:43:17 > 0:43:24Premiership have sunk without a trace.Lynn Davidson, has Boris
0:43:24 > 0:43:28Johnson is a commitment from Cabinet colleagues for a commitment to spend
0:43:28 > 0:43:39an extra 100 million a week on the NHS?He has support from some like
0:43:39 > 0:43:43Chris Grayling and Penny Mordaunt. What see later on is what will
0:43:43 > 0:43:48happen in the week. Boris has decided to own this. His name is all
0:43:48 > 0:43:52over the £350 billion pledge. He wants to take it forward. Jeremy
0:43:52 > 0:43:57Hunt has signalled his support as well.Do think the pressure will
0:43:57 > 0:44:01build up on Theresa May to do more when it comes to the NHS, bearing in
0:44:01 > 0:44:05mind even Jeremy Hunt has talked about the 10-year long-term spending
0:44:05 > 0:44:11plan?I
0:44:18 > 0:44:21think there is a bit of tension around the Cabinet table. May's new
0:44:21 > 0:44:23chief of staff Gavin Barwell has been gently suggesting that if you
0:44:23 > 0:44:26look at the polls, Labour is well ahead on the NHS and if you're going
0:44:26 > 0:44:28to be really cynical about it, the Conservatives should put their
0:44:28 > 0:44:30energies on places where they can take on the Conservatives like
0:44:30 > 0:44:33housing, schools and he will be making the argument that this was a
0:44:33 > 0:44:36referendum pledge and it is really Boris' own reputation that he wants
0:44:36 > 0:44:41to protect by pushing this 100 million for the NHS, as much as we
0:44:41 > 0:44:45have seen in the headlines over the winter that the NHS does need extra
0:44:45 > 0:44:50funding, he will say is this really a priority for the Conservative
0:44:50 > 0:44:54Party?What about the World Economic Forum in Davos this week? We hear
0:44:54 > 0:44:58that Theresa May has secured a bilateral with Donald Trump if he
0:44:58 > 0:45:03goes himself, and also, in terms of the British economy, the former
0:45:03 > 0:45:07Treasury Minister Jim O'Neill said the economy is doing better than he
0:45:07 > 0:45:11expected and better generally than he expected. What do you make of it?
0:45:11 > 0:45:16That was great news from Jim O'Neill this morning, a real turnaround from
0:45:16 > 0:45:20what he said previously. We have Theresa May going on Thursday,
0:45:20 > 0:45:31Emmanuel Macron gives his address
0:45:31 > 0:45:33Emmanuel Macron gives his address on Wednesday which is his vision of how
0:45:33 > 0:45:36the EU will go ahead in the future and then we will have Theresa May
0:45:36 > 0:45:38the next day. What will be interesting this year is that we
0:45:38 > 0:45:41have John McDonnell going as well which is assigned people are taking
0:45:41 > 0:45:43Labour seriously and we look forward to what he has to say about things.
0:45:43 > 0:45:50Thank you.
0:45:50 > 0:45:54He is encouraged by British prospects.I read something
0:45:54 > 0:45:59different, he said the world is growing but Britain's growth isn't
0:45:59 > 0:46:04as freighted. If you look at what the projections were for economic
0:46:04 > 0:46:11growth, compared to the reality, then we are £350 million a week
0:46:11 > 0:46:16worse off, since the referendum result, compared to the predictions,
0:46:16 > 0:46:20and The Irony is that that is the exact amount that the Leave campaign
0:46:20 > 0:46:25were saying was going to be promised as extra, it is big threat to our
0:46:25 > 0:46:28NHS, the lack of economic growth, as well as the threat to our staff and
0:46:28 > 0:46:33to drugs.The lack of economic growth but the Armageddon didn't
0:46:33 > 0:46:37happen, British economy didn't collapse in the immediate aftermath
0:46:37 > 0:46:42as was warned by so many remainors, no doubt yourself.We haven't left.
0:46:42 > 0:46:47They said in the immediate aftermath of that vote.We would be lucky
0:46:47 > 0:46:50several things have happened, there has been great global economic
0:46:50 > 0:46:54growth and I think the fall in the value of the pound has been a boost
0:46:54 > 0:47:00to exports as well. .So that was wrong that claim made at the time?
0:47:00 > 0:47:04There were lots of predictions that are were flying round, the 350
0:47:04 > 0:47:09million a week for the NHS was wrong.Jim O'Neill said that weaker
0:47:09 > 0:47:12British growth in the economy was going to be buoyed by the world
0:47:12 > 0:47:15economy, so is that what we are looking at, as someone who voted
0:47:15 > 0:47:21leave, we will have to rely on stronger growth not only globally
0:47:21 > 0:47:27but in the EUIt shows you can't listen to ex %s, it was more than
0:47:27 > 0:47:31saying the economy was going to fall flat. We were talking about
0:47:31 > 0:47:35emergency budgets because it was going to be such a big disaster, we
0:47:35 > 0:47:39have proved the experts wrong.But the growth has been forecast down
0:47:39 > 0:47:43slightly for this year.Yes, but the economy of the country is doing
0:47:43 > 0:47:46well, we have more people in employment, more people in full-time
0:47:46 > 0:47:52employment. We are starting to see wages rise, so...Where are we
0:47:52 > 0:47:58starting to see wages rise? Where, theyThey are just under inflation.
0:47:58 > 0:48:04Inflation is at 3%. We are seeing employment rising. We have people in
0:48:04 > 0:48:07full-time jobs more than ever before, and people are starting to
0:48:07 > 0:48:13see the benefit of that and compared to the predictions made.That is one
0:48:13 > 0:48:19thing but in terms of wages compared to rate of inflation, there has been
0:48:19 > 0:48:23static wage growth or in fact it is really cut, in most instances.
0:48:23 > 0:48:29Compare that to most of the other countries in the...But there has
0:48:29 > 0:48:34been lots of employment.That is unstable work.If you look at the
0:48:34 > 0:48:38lowest paid they are seeing an increase, so for the lowest paid
0:48:38 > 0:48:41they are seeing more money in their pockets and they are seeing more
0:48:41 > 0:48:46security in their job, if you compare to countries like Spain and
0:48:46 > 0:48:50Italy where there is 40% youth unemployment. This country has done
0:48:50 > 0:48:54very well to make sure that didn't happen here.It doesn't feel like
0:48:54 > 0:49:01that to many people in the party of the country, in the North East who
0:49:01 > 0:49:06are on zero hours contracts who haven't seen any real rise in the
0:49:06 > 0:49:11money coming in, and they have seen costs going up.With the tax
0:49:11 > 0:49:13threshold going up that is significant. If you look at what
0:49:13 > 0:49:19Labour want to do, they want to do £176 billion of borrowing, that will
0:49:19 > 0:49:25cost every household in this country £6500 a year, that will make a
0:49:25 > 0:49:30significant dent.I am not sure about that amount of borrowing. Let
0:49:30 > 0:49:37me go back to your the comments made by your colleague who said Theresa
0:49:37 > 0:49:41May's Government was timid and lacking big ideas, is that helpful?
0:49:41 > 0:49:45That is his opinion.Are they helpful to the Government is thisI
0:49:45 > 0:49:47don't think they are. Brexit is going to play a major role this
0:49:47 > 0:49:53year, we are leaving in March 2019. We have to prepare for that. There
0:49:53 > 0:49:58is significant domestic policies. What are theyHousing, we are
0:49:58 > 0:50:02introducing a ban on letting agents fee, that will make a difference for
0:50:02 > 0:50:09they have been charged anything from 200 to £1,000.What about 5,000
0:50:09 > 0:50:15extra homes a year, is that radical. Oliver Letwin is conducting a
0:50:15 > 0:50:26review.A review.Not on is he reviewing he will look at powers for
0:50:26 > 0:50:28compulsory purchase order, for developers who are not building, we
0:50:28 > 0:50:34will tackle that. There is big domestic policies coming through.
0:50:34 > 0:50:37Yesterday thousands of women took to the streets in London to call
0:50:37 > 0:50:39for gender equality and to demand "time's up" on sexual harassment.
0:50:39 > 0:50:42There were similar marches in the United States over the weekend.
0:50:42 > 0:50:45The papers are full of stories of male public figures being accused
0:50:56 > 0:50:59Yesterday thousands of women took to the streets in London to call
0:50:59 > 0:51:02for gender equality and to demand "time's up" on sexual harassment.
0:51:02 > 0:51:04There were similar marches in the United States over the weekend.
0:51:04 > 0:51:07The papers are full of stories of male public figures being accused
0:51:07 > 0:51:08of inappropriate behaviour.
0:51:08 > 0:51:11Some, however, claim things have gone too far and the movement has
0:51:11 > 0:51:13become an attack on a whole gender.
0:51:13 > 0:51:15Here's the journalist Charlotte Gill with her soapbox.
0:51:15 > 0:51:18Feminism has turned into more of a cult than a social movement. It
0:51:18 > 0:51:22demands that women think and read the same way and worship the same
0:51:22 > 0:51:27idols. We non-believers are made to feel we are waiting to be saved or
0:51:27 > 0:51:33in denial. The #metoo movement started off with honourable aim,
0:51:33 > 0:51:36after Harvey Weinstein's behaviour was first brought to light. Women
0:51:36 > 0:51:42had been keen to make sure that no such instances happened again.
0:51:42 > 0:51:46Victims of sexual assault feel aggrieved. Terrible things have
0:51:46 > 0:51:50happened to them and guilty men have no always been brought to justice.
0:51:50 > 0:51:56Twitter gave power back to many. But in the quest to right the wrongs
0:51:56 > 0:52:03of the past the #metoo movement has become overwhelming an dangerous. It
0:52:03 > 0:52:10has developed many kashty edge, it has morphed into a suspicion against
0:52:10 > 0:52:16an entire gender. It is similar to the 1950s witch hunt against
0:52:16 > 0:52:20supposed Communists but now numerous men in Hollywood and others in
0:52:20 > 0:52:26lesser known industries have found their lives ruined, off the back of
0:52:26 > 0:52:29unscrutinised accusation, almost every day a new accusation is spread
0:52:29 > 0:52:36on the internet. Often men have no chance to defend themselves. We need
0:52:36 > 0:52:41to separate serious assault from poor attempts at flirtation, we need
0:52:41 > 0:52:45to make distinctions between the intentions of men, a man who wants
0:52:45 > 0:52:50to harm women, is surely different from one who misread red the signals
0:52:50 > 0:52:55but most importantly we must treatment sexual assault and sexual
0:52:55 > 0:52:58relations with a more balanced an proich. These are complicated
0:52:58 > 0:53:03issues, not ones to be bandied about on Twitter while the crowds watch
0:53:03 > 0:53:07on, those who question the legitimacy of #metoo are not looking
0:53:07 > 0:53:10for no response but it is time for a proportionate one.
0:53:10 > 0:53:15-- approach.
0:53:17 > 0:53:20And Charlotte is here in the studio with us. Do you understand why women
0:53:20 > 0:53:24marched yesterday?Yes, what, I can understand, what happened in terms
0:53:24 > 0:53:29of Weinstein, which started this movement, was a terrible incident,
0:53:29 > 0:53:32there have been, there is no doubt that terrible things have happened
0:53:32 > 0:53:37to women but what has been allowed to happen is it has escalated into
0:53:37 > 0:53:41justice by the mob, so it is not so much that I don't understand, I
0:53:41 > 0:53:45understand the anger and what has happened but I think it's spiralled
0:53:45 > 0:53:50slightly out of proportion.Has it spiralled to use your words because
0:53:50 > 0:53:54the scale of the problem is that big? And what it did was give women
0:53:54 > 0:54:00the confidence to come forward and reveal what had happened to them,
0:54:00 > 0:54:04which is deemed inappropriate and unacceptable. ?I think it is a
0:54:04 > 0:54:08mixture, there are things that needed to be sorted out but I think
0:54:08 > 0:54:11there were other channels they could have used than Twitter which has
0:54:11 > 0:54:16been harnessed at the moment. Think that humans have a natural propence
0:54:16 > 0:54:20the I to gravitate toward crowds and mob, and I think that is something
0:54:20 > 0:54:24that has repeated itself throughout history, so in the quest to set
0:54:24 > 0:54:28justice right we have followed that pattern.Do you agree there have
0:54:28 > 0:54:32been a lot of injustices that need to be corrected?I think it has been
0:54:32 > 0:54:37conflated. There is the Harvey Weinstein, what happened there was
0:54:37 > 0:54:44bad but you have instances of hand on knees and bad dates, the excuse
0:54:44 > 0:54:50that has been given the reasoning is that's a assault happens on a
0:54:50 > 0:54:54spectrum, but punishment hasn't been on a spectrum. It hasn't been the
0:54:54 > 0:55:01case a hand on the knee gets the same repercussion.Do you say it has
0:55:01 > 0:55:09spiralled out of control or it has liberated women?It has been
0:55:09 > 0:55:12inspirational, a one years on from suffragettes, there is is a lot left
0:55:12 > 0:55:17in terms of getting gender equality, with a massive pay gap. We see that
0:55:17 > 0:55:22power different shall that still operates, particularly within a
0:55:22 > 0:55:26workplace, and, I think we need to see much more power equality, there
0:55:26 > 0:55:32is nothing wrong, I am in a relationship that began at work, and
0:55:32 > 0:55:36when you negotiate the beginnings of a relationship, sometimes it is
0:55:36 > 0:55:41complicated, sometimes it is clumsy. It should be a risk at your own
0:55:41 > 0:55:49expense.Do you think it has gone too far, has it been trialled by
0:55:49 > 0:55:54TwitterThat is an element of that. What we have seen in this and the
0:55:54 > 0:55:57Westminster scandal as well, there haven't been proper processes in
0:55:57 > 0:56:01place for women who have been victims of assault to be able to
0:56:01 > 0:56:04make the claim, I know Andrea led some is doing that cross-party in
0:56:04 > 0:56:08Parliament so if people have been victims they can come for wartment
0:56:08 > 0:56:12we have seen rape cases where young men have been you know, been
0:56:12 > 0:56:15allegations made against them and evidence not being brought forward
0:56:15 > 0:56:18which has cleared their name, so we need to get the balance right. If
0:56:18 > 0:56:24the process is wrong, it does no favours to women.Was that down to
0:56:24 > 0:56:27poor prosecution rather than whether women should come forward with
0:56:27 > 0:56:32complaints?We need to have a system. If a woman has got a
0:56:32 > 0:56:36complaint she has a safe mechanism and she is confident justice will be
0:56:36 > 0:56:40done. I am not sure we are there yet.Isn't that the problem, you say
0:56:40 > 0:56:45people have resorted to Twitter, and there has been a mob campaign, but
0:56:45 > 0:56:48isn't that because they haven't been believed, women have complained
0:56:48 > 0:56:53about it and been told to hush it up, or they haven't been given any
0:56:53 > 0:56:57way of actually pursuing their complaint?I do think women feel
0:56:57 > 0:57:00they have been let down by the system, but two wrongs don't make a
0:57:00 > 0:57:04right. You don't create your own vigilante system because you don't
0:57:04 > 0:57:11like the current one, I think that is very dangerous. I think you know,
0:57:11 > 0:57:15like Twitter, men have, if we believe in true equality as
0:57:15 > 0:57:20feminists we should give men the right to argue back as women put
0:57:20 > 0:57:23forward allegation, that hasn't been done. Men haven't been given a
0:57:23 > 0:57:27chance to respond. We need to follow the proper democratic systems
0:57:27 > 0:57:35otherwise it is know quality.Do you it is a witch hunt? Cab mountain
0:57:35 > 0:57:40ministers have lost their job, do they have the right to reply?There
0:57:40 > 0:57:44was an element where there was hype and people were coming forward with
0:57:44 > 0:57:48things they, you know, that when there wasn't evidence, and so, if
0:57:48 > 0:57:53you are going to make complaints we need to have a proper process, if
0:57:53 > 0:57:57you have an accusation about a serious sexual assault you need to
0:57:57 > 0:58:01to go to the police not the media. It is not fair on women who are put
0:58:01 > 0:58:05out there as victims and they are not able to follow the proper
0:58:05 > 0:58:08justice process, and also, for the men where the accusations are made.
0:58:08 > 0:58:12We have a justice system in this country, and there should be a way
0:58:12 > 0:58:18of making an allegation and that to be investigated.
0:58:18 > 0:58:21We will have to leave it there.
0:58:21 > 0:58:24There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
0:58:24 > 0:58:26The question was Cabinet Office Minister David Lidington has
0:58:26 > 0:58:29confirmed what will NOT happen to mark the moment the UK
0:58:29 > 0:58:30leave the EU next year?
0:58:30 > 0:58:31Was it...
0:58:31 > 0:58:33The White Cliffs of Dover will be lit up?
0:58:33 > 0:58:34Big Ben will chime?
0:58:34 > 0:58:35Street parties?
0:58:35 > 0:58:37Or the pub licensing hours will be extended?
0:58:37 > 0:58:39So, Maria and Paul, what's the correct answer?
0:58:39 > 0:58:43I hope it is not pub licensing. I think that is probably safe. Any
0:58:43 > 0:58:49other ideas.Probably the white cliffs.Big Ben won't chime. That is
0:58:49 > 0:58:51the big news and some are unhappy about it.
0:58:51 > 0:58:52about it.
0:58:52 > 0:58:53That's all for today.
0:58:53 > 0:58:54Thanks to our guests.
0:58:54 > 0:58:57The One O'Clock news is starting over on BBC One now.
0:58:57 > 0:58:58I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big political stories