0:01:12 > 0:01:19Henry Bolton says he won't stand down, promising to fight
0:01:19 > 0:01:20on and "drain the party swamp".
0:01:20 > 0:01:23We put one of his supporters up against one of his critics.
0:01:23 > 0:01:26And we speak to the controversial left-wing activist Jackie Walker,
0:01:26 > 0:01:27who says her suspension from the Labour party
0:01:27 > 0:01:29is a witchhunt.
0:01:29 > 0:01:30She's calling on the party's newly constituted ruling
0:01:30 > 0:01:32body to let her back in.
0:01:32 > 0:01:35All of that in the next hour - and with us for the whole
0:01:35 > 0:01:37of the programme today is the Conservative
0:01:37 > 0:01:39MP George Freeman - a former minister and,
0:01:39 > 0:01:41until November, the chair of the Prime Minister's policy board.
0:01:41 > 0:01:43Welcome back to the programme.
0:01:43 > 0:01:46First today, the BBC understands that Boris Johnson is using today's
0:01:46 > 0:01:49meeting of the cabinet to push for an extra £100 million a week
0:01:49 > 0:01:51for the NHS in England after Brexit.
0:01:51 > 0:01:53Here is the Foreign Secretary arriving for that
0:01:53 > 0:01:57meeting this morning.
0:01:57 > 0:01:58He was unusually tight-lipped when challenged by reporters
0:01:58 > 0:01:59in Downing Street.
0:01:59 > 0:02:06Our political correspondent Norman Smith is in Downing Street.
0:02:06 > 0:02:11Do you want to be the Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, or perhaps Health
0:02:11 > 0:02:21Secretary?
0:02:21 > 0:02:23Secretary?That £350 million on the side of the bus of the Leave
0:02:23 > 0:02:28campaign! Is this about Boris Johnson trying to save his
0:02:28 > 0:02:33reputation, Norman Smith?I think a part of it is Boris Johnson seeking
0:02:33 > 0:02:37vindication, justification, for that hugely contentious claim during the
0:02:37 > 0:02:43referendum campaign about the extra £350 million of. Although you will
0:02:43 > 0:02:47be saying, hang on, he is now promising only 100 million,
0:02:47 > 0:02:53nevertheless that is roughly the net figure once you subtract from a £350
0:02:53 > 0:02:56million all the cash we get back from the EU. My understanding is
0:02:56 > 0:03:03that Johnson is deal the £350 million offer to become government
0:03:03 > 0:03:10policy Jeff Heath thinks it can inject a bit more positive energy to
0:03:10 > 0:03:16the rather dour Brexit process. More than that, I'm told that he visited
0:03:16 > 0:03:20his local Oxbridge hospital, along with the Health Secretary, Jeremy
0:03:20 > 0:03:25Hunt, not so long ago and was very concerned about what he saw in terms
0:03:25 > 0:03:29of the pressures on staff and the state of morale. And he thinks there
0:03:29 > 0:03:34is now a pressing case to get extra funds for the NHS. But you have to
0:03:34 > 0:03:40say, it is all very odd. Sometimes we get Cabinet ministers briefing
0:03:40 > 0:03:44what they've said in a cabinet meeting, we don't really get cabinet
0:03:44 > 0:03:49ministers
0:04:07 > 0:04:10briefing what they're going to say, and on a subject area which is
0:04:10 > 0:04:12nothing to do with their particular area, Boris Johnson being the
0:04:12 > 0:04:14Foreign Secretary, not the Health Secretary. And that prompted this
0:04:14 > 0:04:17rather tart puts down from the Chancellor as he arrived in Brussels
0:04:17 > 0:04:19this morning.Mr Johnson is the Foreign Secretary. Mr Johnson is the
0:04:19 > 0:04:21Foreign Secretary.I gave the Health Secretary an extra six William
0:04:21 > 0:04:24pounds in the budget. More details will be in the spending review, when
0:04:24 > 0:04:26that takes place.And the timing of this could scarcely be more awkward
0:04:26 > 0:04:29for Theresa May, because it chimes with a whole load of backbenchers
0:04:29 > 0:04:32sniping that has been directed at Mrs May for her lack of radicalism,
0:04:32 > 0:04:39lack of big ideas, lack of really new thinking and, I suppose, Boris
0:04:39 > 0:04:46Johnson will argue, here's a big idea, an extra £100 million for the
0:04:46 > 0:04:51NHS every week. It fuels the narrative that Mrs May is far too
0:04:51 > 0:04:59cautious.George Freeman, do you support Boris Johnson's call for
0:04:59 > 0:05:04£100 million extra per week to be spent on the NHS?I think we all
0:05:04 > 0:05:08want more money to be spent on the NHS, and Philip Hammond is right,
0:05:08 > 0:05:13that is why we put a lot more in just a few weeks ago. The real
0:05:13 > 0:05:17challenge is, can we make Brexit a moment where we increase our rate of
0:05:17 > 0:05:20growth so that business generates more money for the public sector,
0:05:20 > 0:05:25and secondly, the integration with care. I think the Prime Minister has
0:05:25 > 0:05:30signalled a real commitment on this issue to make sure that we really
0:05:30 > 0:05:34build care and health together.But she has not actually moved the funds
0:05:34 > 0:05:40to the health department, so its cosmetic?It is only one week in at
0:05:40 > 0:05:44yes, we need to see some really big thinking about the NHS in the 21st
0:05:44 > 0:05:48century. That is the real challenge. So, you support Boris Johnson making
0:05:48 > 0:05:53this public school - should he have done it through the newspapers when
0:05:53 > 0:05:58he is the Foreign Secretary, not the Health Secretary?I was quite
0:05:58 > 0:06:02surprised to read it in the papers. It is really important that the
0:06:02 > 0:06:05Cabinet works behind closed doors, it is the highest council in the
0:06:05 > 0:06:09land. It is really important that the public have faith that the
0:06:09 > 0:06:14Cabinet is able to do its job behind closed doors, not in the newspapers.
0:06:14 > 0:06:18Everyone is deal to make sure that their issues are being heard. But I
0:06:18 > 0:06:23think it is important that Cabinet collective responsibility holds.Has
0:06:23 > 0:06:27he overstepped the mark?I was quite surprised to read in advance of the
0:06:27 > 0:06:30meeting what was going to be said. So he has breached Cabinet
0:06:30 > 0:06:35collective responsibility?No. Cabinet collective responsibility is
0:06:35 > 0:06:39about sticking to policy decisions that have been made. But the point
0:06:39 > 0:06:44is, I think it is really important that people can see that Cabinet is
0:06:44 > 0:06:47working behind closed doors.Because if everybody did that in the Cabinet
0:06:47 > 0:06:50it would be mayhem, if everybody spoke right across their briefs.
0:06:50 > 0:06:56What should Theresa May do to rein in Boris Johnson but big yearning it
0:06:56 > 0:07:00is quite difficult to rein in Boris Johnson because he is Boris Johnson,
0:07:00 > 0:07:03here's something of a loose cannon, that is his whole political
0:07:03 > 0:07:08character. I think what the Prime Minister has to do is to show that
0:07:08 > 0:07:12she and her team are absolutely serious about integration with care.
0:07:12 > 0:07:16Yes, more money but also old thinking about the NHS in the 21st
0:07:16 > 0:07:19century.I have called for some really long-term, cross-party
0:07:19 > 0:07:23thinking. Jeremy Hunt has done a brilliant job taking politics out of
0:07:23 > 0:07:31the NHS. I think we should go further and
0:07:31 > 0:07:33further and signal a commitment to make it a National Health Service,
0:07:33 > 0:07:36not a hearty health service.So, was the Prime Minister wrong to dismiss
0:07:36 > 0:07:39this cross-party commission on the NHS, then?It is not that she has
0:07:39 > 0:07:44dismissed it out of hand.She said thanks, no thanks, really.Well, it
0:07:44 > 0:07:47is a discussion which is ongoing. There are many people who are
0:07:47 > 0:07:51strongly supporting it. A royal commission would take a decade or
0:07:51 > 0:07:57more. I think a lot of us feel that if you take someone like, say,
0:07:57 > 0:08:01Norman Lamb, Conservatives like myself, people on the Labour benches
0:08:01 > 0:08:05who agree about much of this, we can take out a lot of the politics and
0:08:05 > 0:08:08then identify the big question is where we have to have a big debate,
0:08:08 > 0:08:13and I think that will do as a service.Do you understand the
0:08:13 > 0:08:15frustration of people like Sarah Wollaston, who is calling for
0:08:15 > 0:08:19Theresa May to be bolder, and others, saying that she needs to be
0:08:19 > 0:08:24bolder on this issue?I said similar things. The challenge is that she
0:08:24 > 0:08:28leads a government which is almost totally preoccupied, inevitably,
0:08:28 > 0:08:33with Brexit. The challenge is to find the bandwidth and the capacity
0:08:33 > 0:08:38to do the big thinking. That's why I have called for her to set up a
0:08:38 > 0:08:42commission, like Churchill did in the war, beyond Brexit, how to make
0:08:42 > 0:08:47this a moment of inspiring national renewal to to make the imagination
0:08:47 > 0:08:51of people who largely did not vote for it.Do you accept the idea that
0:08:51 > 0:08:55Labour has won on the issue of the NHS and as a result the Tories
0:08:55 > 0:08:59should just focus on other issues?I absolutely don't. I think Jeremy
0:08:59 > 0:09:02Hunt has done an amazing job taking the Labour Party's claim to be the
0:09:02 > 0:09:07only hearty of the NHS out. Everybody knows it needs more
0:09:07 > 0:09:11funding and better integration with care. The challenge is, are we going
0:09:11 > 0:09:17to be bold in really owning a vision of the NHS in the 21st century? More
0:09:17 > 0:09:21local, more integrative, letting local leaders run it. We have to be
0:09:21 > 0:09:26bold.
0:09:26 > 0:09:28Now it's time for our daily quiz.
0:09:28 > 0:09:30The question for today is? Which former politician
0:09:30 > 0:09:32was photographed at Disneyland Paris while his wife was attending
0:09:32 > 0:09:35meetings in the French capital?
0:09:35 > 0:09:36Was it...
0:09:36 > 0:09:37a) David Cameron?
0:09:37 > 0:09:38B) Ed Balls?
0:09:38 > 0:09:39C) Nick Clegg?
0:09:39 > 0:09:40Or d) Barack Obama?
0:09:40 > 0:09:43At the end of the show, George will give us the correct answer.
0:09:43 > 0:09:46Now, what do the business lobby group the CBI,
0:09:46 > 0:09:47the Labour frontbench, pro-Remain Tory backbenchers
0:09:47 > 0:09:49and reportedly some cabinet ministers all have in common?
0:09:49 > 0:09:51They think we should at least consider staying
0:09:51 > 0:09:54in the EU's customs union, or, as some people prefer,
0:09:54 > 0:09:55in A customs union with the EU.
0:09:55 > 0:09:56Let's take a look...
0:09:56 > 0:09:59All 28 EU member states are formally members of the custom union.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02And the EU also has custom union agreements with other
0:10:02 > 0:10:03countries, like Turkey, Andorra and San Marino.
0:10:03 > 0:10:06The customs union means that no tariffs or duties are charged
0:10:06 > 0:10:12on goods being traded inside the union.
0:10:12 > 0:10:15And members of the customs union are required to place the same
0:10:15 > 0:10:17tariffs on goods coming into the bloc from
0:10:17 > 0:10:18outside countries.
0:10:18 > 0:10:22And the EU also negotiates trade deals on behalf of all members.
0:10:22 > 0:10:27Countries inside the customs union are not allowed
0:10:27 > 0:10:32to strike their own bilateral trade deals with other countries.
0:10:32 > 0:10:35At her Florence speech in September, Theresa May said...
0:10:38 > 0:10:40But last month, the Chancellor, Philip Hammond, wrote that Britain
0:10:40 > 0:10:46woud "seek a new customs arrangement" with the EU.
0:10:46 > 0:10:48It's unclear how similar such an arrangement would
0:10:48 > 0:10:51be to the status quo.
0:10:51 > 0:10:56Meanwhile, Labour's Shadow Brexit Secretary, Keir Starmer,
0:10:56 > 0:10:59says that the UK entering into "a customs union" with the EU
0:10:59 > 0:11:06should be an option on the table in the negotiations.
0:11:06 > 0:11:08And yesterday, the lobby group the Confederation
0:11:08 > 0:11:11of British Industry said that staying in a customs union
0:11:11 > 0:11:14with the EU is "part of a practical, real-world answer" to the problems
0:11:14 > 0:11:15thrown up by Brexit.
0:11:15 > 0:11:17But the Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, wasn't
0:11:17 > 0:11:18impressed by that suggestion.
0:11:18 > 0:11:21He tweeted...
0:11:29 > 0:11:31I'm joined now by the Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg,
0:11:31 > 0:11:34who was recently elected as chairman of the influential European
0:11:34 > 0:11:42Research Group, made up of Brexit-backing Conservative MPs.
0:11:42 > 0:11:46Welcome to The Daily Politics. Just before I come to you, Jacob
0:11:46 > 0:11:51Rees-Mogg, George Freeman, should the government now listen to the
0:11:51 > 0:11:55CBI's calls to stay inside a customs union after we leave the EU?I think
0:11:55 > 0:11:59the key is that we have a business friendly Brexit. Most of my
0:11:59 > 0:12:03constituents when they voted for Brexit wanted as out of the
0:12:03 > 0:12:07political union at actively trading as a part of what they were sold in
0:12:07 > 0:12:11the 1970s.So, remaining in the customs union?The problem with the
0:12:11 > 0:12:15customs union is that it prevents us ultimately from signing trade deals.
0:12:15 > 0:12:20In the short-term industry in this country would like to remain in as
0:12:20 > 0:12:23predictable than the arrangement in terms of trading in Europe as they
0:12:23 > 0:12:28can. If Liam Fox came back and said, I've got a huge trade deal ready to
0:12:28 > 0:12:31sign with Africa with America, then I think the balance of proper
0:12:31 > 0:12:35dinners teak wood swing and people would say, let's go for it.But in
0:12:35 > 0:12:40the absence of that, do you think at the moment all things being equal
0:12:40 > 0:12:43that Britain should heed those calls and remain in a customs union with
0:12:43 > 0:12:47the EU?Some of those calls I think are designed to stop us implementing
0:12:47 > 0:12:52Brexit at all, and I don't agree with that.But should Britain remain
0:12:52 > 0:12:56in a customs union?I would like us to negotiate a heap trade agreement
0:12:56 > 0:13:00with the European Union in which we have that free customs union, so
0:13:00 > 0:13:03that the Northern Ireland border works, so that we can sell our
0:13:03 > 0:13:07goods. I think the only point of difference with Jacob is that he is
0:13:07 > 0:13:11a sovereignty hawk would prefer us to be out at the end of March next
0:13:11 > 0:13:15year even if we don't have a customs agreement. I would like us to have a
0:13:15 > 0:13:19customs agreement, and if we didn't, paying the price of another year or
0:13:19 > 0:13:23two while we negotiate those trade deals for me would be a small price
0:13:23 > 0:13:27to pay. But we agree ultimately that we want to be able to do those local
0:13:27 > 0:13:30trade deals, and that means coming out of the current customs union.
0:13:30 > 0:13:34But at the moment if the price is to stay in the customs union until in
0:13:34 > 0:13:38the future trade deals are struck, or could be struck, you would be
0:13:38 > 0:13:45happy for that and you support that? The keyword is THE customs union. A
0:13:45 > 0:13:52customs union, yes. But I think we negotiate a customs agreement which
0:13:52 > 0:13:55means we can sell across the European market. That is what my
0:13:55 > 0:13:59constituents voted for.That is pretty well what is currently the
0:13:59 > 0:14:03arrangement of staying in the customs union, that actually all of
0:14:03 > 0:14:05the regulations would remain the same and the status quo would
0:14:05 > 0:14:11continue - do you agree with George Freeman on that?CBI and received
0:14:11 > 0:14:17many millions of pounds in the European Union between nine and 15,
0:14:17 > 0:14:21not the independent body, it is backing inefficiency, a lack of
0:14:21 > 0:14:25competitiveness and wants to remain in the European Union. Campaign for
0:14:25 > 0:14:29the euro, the change rate mechanism and against Brexit, it is not
0:14:29 > 0:14:32representing small business all the consumer, it is the consumer wants
0:14:32 > 0:14:36to help and I want to get out of the customs union as soon as possible.
0:14:36 > 0:14:40Specific example: 11.8% tariff on clothing coming into this country
0:14:40 > 0:14:47from outside the EU, but where is 11.4%. That hits and humid in the UK
0:14:47 > 0:14:50to very little benefit of UK manufacturers because we do not make
0:14:50 > 0:14:56many textiles or shoes anymore. Counterexample, aerospace industry,
0:14:56 > 0:15:02we are a major player.There is no tariffs on that.There are other
0:15:02 > 0:15:07industries, life sciences, 60 billion, I don't want to in have two
0:15:07 > 0:15:14arrange individual deals. I agree with Jacob here, we need to access
0:15:14 > 0:15:17the market.Michel Barnier, and president Emmanuel Macron have both
0:15:17 > 0:15:23said we can have a free-trade deal with the European based on Canada,
0:15:23 > 0:15:28that is...Would you agree with that, would you accept that, Canada,
0:15:28 > 0:15:34the Canada deal, on goods?
0:15:34 > 0:15:36the Canada deal, on goods?Enhanced Canada...That is on the table, does
0:15:36 > 0:15:40not need for us to stay in the customs union, and this is where I
0:15:40 > 0:15:43do disagree, we will not be able to get the other trade deals because
0:15:43 > 0:15:49the other countries will not think it is worthwhile doing deals with an
0:15:49 > 0:15:53EU satellite.I understand that, our only difference, is avoiding the
0:15:53 > 0:15:56cliff edge, I want the businesses that I know are raising the money
0:15:56 > 0:16:01that will pay for the NHS to have confidence that there is no cliff
0:16:01 > 0:16:05edge in 15 months' time. I'm not surprised they want to know. For me,
0:16:05 > 0:16:09continual membership of a customs union while we get the trade
0:16:09 > 0:16:13agreements in base is a price worth paying.I want because people to
0:16:13 > 0:16:16have cheaper food, clothing and footwear the day that we leave the
0:16:16 > 0:16:21EU, it will affect the standard of living for the poorest in our
0:16:21 > 0:16:23society the most erratically, the customs union is about protecting
0:16:23 > 0:16:29inefficient European businesses,
0:16:31 > 0:16:33inefficient European businesses, not for anything else.There is a
0:16:33 > 0:16:36discussion about Britain remaining in a customs union, something
0:16:36 > 0:16:39similar to what we have now, because the evidence has not been produced
0:16:39 > 0:16:43by Whitehall that new bilateral trade deals will outweigh the lost
0:16:43 > 0:16:49trade from the EU.I think the trade seal issue is a bit of a red
0:16:49 > 0:16:51herring, the biggest individual national trading partner is the
0:16:51 > 0:16:56United States with whom we have no trade deal. Our biggest earner, net
0:16:56 > 0:17:01earner, is financial services. By and large, they do not have trade
0:17:01 > 0:17:06deals, are not subject to the trade deals you get with manufactured
0:17:06 > 0:17:12goods. What we want is to open up the market to lower prices and make
0:17:12 > 0:17:15the UK more competitive and efficient and use that as a lever.
0:17:15 > 0:17:21Would you see it as a betrayal if Britain remains in the customs union
0:17:21 > 0:17:25or in a customs union?If we stay in the customs union, we have not left
0:17:25 > 0:17:27the European Union, it would be a failure on behalf of the government
0:17:27 > 0:17:32if that happened.And on, he just said, actually, the main reason to
0:17:32 > 0:17:37come out of the customs union is to be able to do trade deals. That is a
0:17:37 > 0:17:42red herring.You cannot do them unless you are out.They are much
0:17:42 > 0:17:45overstated, they are a useful thing to have, but the biggest single
0:17:45 > 0:17:49training can ease the United States, with whom we have no formal trade
0:17:49 > 0:17:53deal. Arrangements but not a deal. How is it you know better than the
0:17:53 > 0:17:57CBI, about what is best for the British economy?The CBI has a
0:17:57 > 0:18:04history of getting things wrong.And you don't...?Take it as a
0:18:04 > 0:18:07commentator, it got the art am wrong, the euro wrong, it backed
0:18:07 > 0:18:13remain and it is funded by the European Union. -- it got the RM
0:18:13 > 0:18:19wrong. Though it is representing is not the consumer, I am arguing for
0:18:19 > 0:18:22my constituents, I want them to have lower prices and better quality,
0:18:22 > 0:18:28that can be brought in from outside the European Union. The CBI is a
0:18:28 > 0:18:32spokesman for vested interest.Do you agree? Do you think it is a
0:18:32 > 0:18:35spokesman for vested interest and the government should not listen to
0:18:35 > 0:18:39them?Jacob is right in that it is the corporate end of the ladder,
0:18:39 > 0:18:45representing bigger companies, but he's wrong...Not just me, a lot of
0:18:45 > 0:18:49people agree with me.Does he know better? He's wrong to dismiss this
0:18:49 > 0:18:53soap casually, I am reconciled to "Brexit", it has to be pro-business,
0:18:53 > 0:18:56I want us to be not just pro-business as a government but
0:18:56 > 0:19:00more businesslike, on the board of Great Britain plc I would say, I
0:19:00 > 0:19:04understand the customs union prevents us from doing a trade deal,
0:19:04 > 0:19:09have we got anything lined up?If not, I would say, right now, that is
0:19:09 > 0:19:14a step too far. If we can get the trade deals then I see the argument.
0:19:14 > 0:19:18You are not convinced that you will be able to get the trade deals or
0:19:18 > 0:19:20that it might replace...He just said trade deals are a distraction.
0:19:20 > 0:19:24We will come onto that, because I thought...I thought that was the
0:19:24 > 0:19:29whole point of Liam Fox's job.You spoke with people at the time, you
0:19:29 > 0:19:33were chairman of the policy ball before Christmas, in cabinet,
0:19:33 > 0:19:36ministers, Tory MPs, is this being actively considered, Britain
0:19:36 > 0:19:39remaining in the customs union arrangement with the EU?I don't
0:19:39 > 0:19:45think at that level of detail, most colleagues, and most constituents,
0:19:45 > 0:19:49reconciled to Brexit, want us to make a success of it, wanted to be
0:19:49 > 0:19:53pro-business, on the doorsteps they said, we voted to join a Common
0:19:53 > 0:19:57Market, not a political union, we have come out of the political
0:19:57 > 0:20:02union, and stayed in a trading brock -- trading block.Is there the
0:20:02 > 0:20:06possibility the government will consider it?We make the go shaded,
0:20:06 > 0:20:09we may get a full trade deal with Europe, full movement of goods and
0:20:09 > 0:20:14ability.This is not about the customs union, they may be listening
0:20:14 > 0:20:17to some pro-remain Tory backbenchers, like Ed Vaizey, at the
0:20:17 > 0:20:23weekend he said, free-trade deals will make as the out of Brexit
0:20:23 > 0:20:28unscathed, that is the birds, he said, they take years and years,
0:20:28 > 0:20:31they and the domestic audiences. They don't always take years and
0:20:31 > 0:20:35years, the US and Australia did one in ten or 11 months, it has been
0:20:35 > 0:20:38very powerful. Trade deals, a distraction, this is important goal
0:20:38 > 0:20:41on the real benefit we get is from lifting tariffs on goods that come
0:20:41 > 0:20:46into the country, nontariff barriers. That makes the UK more
0:20:46 > 0:20:50competitive, makes good for consumers cheaper. Unilateral free
0:20:50 > 0:20:53trade has worked in every country that has tried it historically.
0:20:53 > 0:20:58Trade deals are an ad benefit, if you open up your market, and go to
0:20:58 > 0:21:02people and say, we have opened up the market, do you want to open up
0:21:02 > 0:21:06yours, that helps trade even further. The benefits you get by
0:21:06 > 0:21:10reducing your input costs and the costs of consumption for voters
0:21:10 > 0:21:14across the country is very economically powerful.Why, then,
0:21:14 > 0:21:20has Liam Fox being put in this position to seek out and scope
0:21:20 > 0:21:24free-trade deals which has been sold to the British public as a core part
0:21:24 > 0:21:30of the "Brexit" operation, part of being ace swashbuckling free-trade
0:21:30 > 0:21:34negotiation, it is striking out on our own.Singapore is completely
0:21:34 > 0:21:39open but does trade deals on top because it wants to be as
0:21:39 > 0:21:42encouraging to people to be as open as it is. It is in the interests of
0:21:42 > 0:21:46the world to have as much free-trade as possible and if we can be a
0:21:46 > 0:21:50catalyst, that is very exciting, if deals can lead to that, that will be
0:21:50 > 0:21:54of benefit. The key benefit is lifting tariffs and making goods in
0:21:54 > 0:22:00this country cheaper, both manufactured inputs for industry but
0:22:00 > 0:22:03also, making goods cheaper for consumers.The big challenges
0:22:03 > 0:22:08transition, we are geared towards a European market, we cannot do that
0:22:08 > 0:22:14overnight, at the end of March next year, we need some transition.
0:22:14 > 0:22:16And for more reporting and analysis of Brexit,
0:22:16 > 0:22:24check out the BBC News website, that's bbc.co.uk/brexit.
0:22:29 > 0:22:32Has the Prime Minister been too cautious in setting out her big
0:22:32 > 0:22:33vision for government?
0:22:33 > 0:22:35Earlier we heard that Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson has
0:22:35 > 0:22:37demanded more money for the NHS, and he's not only
0:22:37 > 0:22:39one voicing concern.
0:22:39 > 0:22:41Let's have a look at some of the calls to action coming
0:22:41 > 0:22:42from the backbenches.
0:22:42 > 0:22:44Last Friday, former business minister Nick Boles tweeted
0:22:44 > 0:22:47that there was a "timidity and lack of ambition about Mrs May's
0:22:47 > 0:22:52Government, which means it constantly disappoints".
0:22:52 > 0:22:55Ed Vaizey, the former culture minister, joined in the criticism,
0:22:55 > 0:22:57calling for "big, bold and radical ideas" to attract votes,
0:22:57 > 0:22:59warning against what he called a "safety first approach"
0:22:59 > 0:23:01when he appeared on Peston On Sunday.
0:23:01 > 0:23:03Speaking on The Westminster Hour on Sunday night,
0:23:03 > 0:23:10former Tory Party chairman Grant Shapps said:
0:23:11 > 0:23:19Veteran Tory MP Nicholas Soames tweeted yesterday morning:
0:23:24 > 0:23:26He added the hashtag,
0:23:26 > 0:23:34#wheres the bold and brave so far its dull dull dull
0:23:36 > 0:23:44What do you say that it is dullthe mechanics are a little bit dull,
0:23:44 > 0:23:47and...He is talking about all the other things.He is talking about
0:23:47 > 0:23:51the overall government message, the challenge we face, that the PM
0:23:51 > 0:23:54faces, for the next 15 months, the government will be largely
0:23:54 > 0:23:59preoccupied with negotiating this very important deal. How then do we
0:23:59 > 0:24:03set out the bold ideas to make Brexit a moment of national renewal
0:24:03 > 0:24:06that it needs to be to succeed, not least to capture the imagination of
0:24:06 > 0:24:10the young who did not vote for it? That is why I have called for a
0:24:10 > 0:24:16commission outside the government, like Clement Attlee and Winston
0:24:16 > 0:24:19Churchill appointed beverage at the end of the war, to look at bold
0:24:19 > 0:24:22ideas.You were chairman of the policy board until November, what
0:24:22 > 0:24:28are the ideas?A lot of us have big ideas, I will give you a view.What
0:24:28 > 0:24:32are you taking on, the flagship policy, apart from Brexit?The first
0:24:32 > 0:24:38is NHS and care, big commitment to that commitment that has been done
0:24:38 > 0:24:44for decades.How? Jeremy Hunt is... You have already conceded that will
0:24:44 > 0:24:48not include money, it sticks with the CLT and he has it as a title,
0:24:48 > 0:24:52how has he going to get to grips with it? -- DCLG. I have not said
0:24:52 > 0:24:56that at all, it is the beginning of a bold process of commitment to real
0:24:56 > 0:25:01integration. What is it in practical terms, what is the government
0:25:01 > 0:25:04pledging to do.Well, firstly tackle the problem that has bedevilled it
0:25:04 > 0:25:09for decades, social care has been funded through local government and
0:25:09 > 0:25:14underfunded, and health has been solely the preserve of NHS England
0:25:14 > 0:25:17and the Department of Health.Labour says it will spend money now, the
0:25:17 > 0:25:22Conservative government says it will do it by 2021.We put in 6 billion
0:25:22 > 0:25:26in the autumn, we put in more money every year, we put in 6 billion in
0:25:26 > 0:25:29the Autumn Statement, but the challenge is what is the NHS looked
0:25:29 > 0:25:34like, designed in 1947, not fit for purpose in the 21st-century. I have
0:25:34 > 0:25:37worked in the NHS and I have been the health Minister, it is how we
0:25:37 > 0:25:42support it with digital technology to give them power over their own
0:25:42 > 0:25:45health, go from being a provider organisation to an empowering
0:25:45 > 0:25:50organisation.Isi Gabsa the leadership of the party to do this?
0:25:50 > 0:25:54Both, -- is it down to the leadership or the party?I think the
0:25:54 > 0:26:00party needs a role in shaping abroad big agenda beyond the mechanics so
0:26:00 > 0:26:04that people can be inspired, quite difficult to do that in a government
0:26:04 > 0:26:07where every department is looking through its new relationship with
0:26:07 > 0:26:13Europe.Has she indicated she will do that, give it to the party to
0:26:13 > 0:26:16shape the ideas?We will have do wait and see, I have not heard that,
0:26:16 > 0:26:20that is part of what Nicholas Soames and Ed Vaizey are signalling.Is
0:26:20 > 0:26:23that because she lacks the leadership and vision to do it
0:26:23 > 0:26:27herself?I think it is more because, she takes her duties as Prime
0:26:27 > 0:26:32Minister of a country negotiating "Brexit" very seriously, and I think
0:26:32 > 0:26:38she and the team do not see the need to have a more inspiring vision.
0:26:38 > 0:26:42They believe that competence, administration, delivering Brexit,
0:26:42 > 0:26:45will be enough, that is where we disagree, a whole lot of voters out
0:26:45 > 0:26:49there take that for granted, they want to see why the Conservatives
0:26:49 > 0:26:53should carry on and govern, do we have the vision.How frustrating is
0:26:53 > 0:26:58it to work in that environment, when Ewart share of the policy board?It
0:26:58 > 0:27:02is politics under Theresa May. It has been true of all leaders,
0:27:02 > 0:27:06Parliament is full of ideas, and backbenchers driven with ideas to
0:27:06 > 0:27:12make the world a better place and the Prime Minister must pick a team.
0:27:12 > 0:27:15The frustration is, under David Cameron's leadership, under the last
0:27:15 > 0:27:19ten and 15 years, and Theresa May, as party chairman, the party has
0:27:19 > 0:27:22modernised and come to term with modern Britain, it has led in
0:27:22 > 0:27:26showing it has a vision. The danger of Brexit if we don't tackle it is
0:27:26 > 0:27:31that it may look to a generation under 40 like backward step, we have
0:27:31 > 0:27:35to make sure we have a vision for making Brexit a moment of looking
0:27:35 > 0:27:41forward, with Europe.Is it time to abandon austerity altogether?I have
0:27:41 > 0:27:44called for a new approach, first seven years of belt tightening, from
0:27:44 > 0:27:49the top, in London, I think, morale and confidence in public services is
0:27:49 > 0:27:54now quite low. I think we have do single that we have a bold vision
0:27:54 > 0:27:58for public services, support public services, that is why I have called
0:27:58 > 0:28:03for and the Chancellor is enacting a leadership Academy and a new set of
0:28:03 > 0:28:05funding, those heroes who have turned around schools and hospitals.
0:28:05 > 0:28:10You have admitted morale is low in the public services and the
0:28:10 > 0:28:13Conservatives have been in government since 2010, should they
0:28:13 > 0:28:21accept responsibility?Morale is a difficulty post crash. It was a big
0:28:21 > 0:28:24crash and people were saying this will take ten or 20 years to pay off
0:28:24 > 0:28:29these debts. No surprise that seven years in, people are weary, and I
0:28:29 > 0:28:33think the challenge for us, on big ideas is, do we have a vision of
0:28:33 > 0:28:38public services in the 21st-century, more locally rooted, more locally
0:28:38 > 0:28:41led, ending command and control from Whitehall and giving incentives back
0:28:41 > 0:28:48to places to tackle health in their localities? To run a more integrated
0:28:48 > 0:28:53model of public services, that is a big idea.Among 18 to 29-year-old,
0:28:53 > 0:28:58the vote shares slumped, with one pollster finding only 8% of them
0:28:58 > 0:29:02voted Conservative, 69% voted Labour, you yourself have said that
0:29:02 > 0:29:06the crisis is intergenerational, have you lost the youth vote for
0:29:06 > 0:29:14ever?Not for ever, but it is serious, there is a massive question
0:29:14 > 0:29:16over this administration and this government and this Conservative
0:29:16 > 0:29:22Party, that is why have spoken with the urgency I have, there is a whole
0:29:22 > 0:29:26generation, under 40, actually, under 45, who have picked up a lot
0:29:26 > 0:29:29of personal debt through the crash and the crisis, come into a new
0:29:29 > 0:29:34chair workplace of huge job insecurity, cannot afford to buy
0:29:34 > 0:29:37houses, and they worry that Brexit may be the final insult, turning our
0:29:37 > 0:29:41back on the world they are excited by, unless we set out a vision for
0:29:41 > 0:29:46how we make Brexit the opposite, a moment of inspiring renewal, where
0:29:46 > 0:29:48we embrace global opportunity and gives them a chance to go from
0:29:48 > 0:29:53wherever they are in Britain into the world, then I fear we may well
0:29:53 > 0:29:55lose their generation.Give me free policies that will get young people
0:29:55 > 0:30:02voting for the Tories.My ideas, and...Have the government take an
0:30:02 > 0:30:06on-board?Not yet, but number one, every school or college leave and
0:30:06 > 0:30:10not going into a job or higher education, work experience on the
0:30:10 > 0:30:13front line of international do, so they get out around the world and
0:30:13 > 0:30:19see emerging markets. Number two, a lifelong learning digital skills
0:30:19 > 0:30:22passport, so that everyone in this country recognises that we have two
0:30:22 > 0:30:26keep reskilling all the time. And number three, give all mayors the
0:30:26 > 0:30:31ability to raise it local infrastructure bonds. Asset backed
0:30:31 > 0:30:36by local economies, three big ideas that would drive out working for
0:30:36 > 0:30:38every.Let's see if they get accepted and taken on by the
0:30:38 > 0:30:40government.
0:30:43 > 0:30:46If you like a fizzy drink, you'll soon be paying more to enjoy it,
0:30:46 > 0:30:49because the sugar tax comes into force in April this year.
0:30:49 > 0:30:51The government will be taxing producers and importers of sweet
0:30:51 > 0:30:53drinks to help cut obesity, especially in children.
0:30:53 > 0:30:55But how should we spend the money that's raised?
0:30:55 > 0:30:58And will it really do anything to change our habits?
0:30:58 > 0:31:01Here's Emma Vardy.
0:31:01 > 0:31:05In the 2016 budget, the former Chancellor George Osborne introduced
0:31:05 > 0:31:09plans for attacks on sugary soft drinks to get those of us with a
0:31:09 > 0:31:17sweet tooth to cut back on these and make healthier choices.
0:31:18 > 0:31:19make healthier choices. The tax applies to drinks containing more
0:31:19 > 0:31:24than five grams of sugar per 100 millilitres. It means you will see
0:31:24 > 0:31:29the price of some drinks on the shelf go up by around 20p. It has
0:31:29 > 0:31:32been welcome by health professionals, but for those in the
0:31:32 > 0:31:37industry it has left a rather so, a taste.We have always felt that the
0:31:37 > 0:31:41softs drinks industry levy was an inappropriate way to address an
0:31:41 > 0:31:45issue which stems frankly from overall diet and levels of exercise,
0:31:45 > 0:31:49so picking on one particular product and one particular tax of this sort
0:31:49 > 0:31:54is the wrong way to address the challenge that we all face, and
0:31:54 > 0:31:56admittedly there is a serious challenge in relation to childhood
0:31:56 > 0:32:02obesity.So, what are we going to do with all these extra taxes raised
0:32:02 > 0:32:08from sweet drink lovers hammered the MP Frank Field has a private
0:32:08 > 0:32:11members' bill with cross-party support calling for the money raised
0:32:11 > 0:32:15to go to school holiday breakfast clubs.When George Osborne finally
0:32:15 > 0:32:20gave in to having a sugar tax, he had resisted on the basis that it
0:32:20 > 0:32:24was regressive, in other words poorer people would pay more. Now,
0:32:24 > 0:32:31if you use some of this revenue to feed poorer children and have fun in
0:32:31 > 0:32:34the holiday and maintain their educational improvements recorded
0:32:34 > 0:32:39during term time, it seems to us a really good way by which the
0:32:39 > 0:32:44government could make sure that the sugar tax was not regressive but
0:32:44 > 0:32:48progressive.Drink manufacturers are adapting to the new tax in different
0:32:48 > 0:32:52ways. Coca-Cola said it will cut the size of its bottles while also
0:32:52 > 0:32:56putting up the price. Other manufacturers like Ribena have been
0:32:56 > 0:33:00taking on the tricky challenge of reducing sugar in their products
0:33:00 > 0:33:04while trying to maintain a flavour that will satisfy customers.Our
0:33:04 > 0:33:08consumers have told us they want this sugary product...That is
0:33:08 > 0:33:13probably harder than it sounds. Considerably! The Treasury had
0:33:13 > 0:33:17originally estimated the tax would raise more than £500 million a year.
0:33:17 > 0:33:23But now it is thought it bring in much less. The forecast revenue has
0:33:23 > 0:33:25diminished substantially. Originally this was going to raise more than
0:33:25 > 0:33:31£500 million. They are now saying that it is going to raise £275
0:33:31 > 0:33:37million. And we still think that is an overestimate. But I simply say
0:33:37 > 0:33:41again, this is not the best way to tackle obesity.It is expected that
0:33:41 > 0:33:45the true impact on the businesses that make these ducts will not
0:33:45 > 0:33:49become clear for some time. Experts believe it will take even longer to
0:33:49 > 0:33:52really see whether it delivers the health benefits the government is
0:33:52 > 0:33:54hoping for.
0:33:54 > 0:33:57We're joined now by Kawther Hashem - a nutritionist and spokeswoman
0:33:57 > 0:34:02for the campaign group Action on Sugar.
0:34:02 > 0:34:08Look into the programme. Tax is aimed specifically at high sugar
0:34:08 > 0:34:11fizzy drinks, excluding things like milkshakes and other fruit juices,
0:34:11 > 0:34:15so doesn't go far enough in your mind?I think it does in terms of
0:34:15 > 0:34:19trying to get the manufacturers to reduce levels of sugar. It is kind
0:34:19 > 0:34:23of different to what other countries have done. It is basically trying to
0:34:23 > 0:34:27encourage the companies to reformulate their products.Many of
0:34:27 > 0:34:30your colleagues, George, will say that this tax is bad for consumers
0:34:30 > 0:34:34and bad for the economy - are they wrong?I think they are. I called
0:34:34 > 0:34:39for the sugar tax, another big idea! Was it taken non-public when did you
0:34:39 > 0:34:46first suggest it?2014. But I think the truth is, two things. We don't
0:34:46 > 0:34:50want to punish people for having drinks. We have got to incentivise
0:34:50 > 0:34:54the industry so that these things taste the same but they don't make
0:34:54 > 0:35:01UOB said that is perfectly doable. I would
0:35:22 > 0:35:22would like
0:35:22 > 0:35:26exercise, it is about schools... Not to me it isn't. It is about an
0:35:26 > 0:35:29enlightened state taking its responsibility is to its citizens
0:35:29 > 0:35:33are seriously, and particularly the most vulnerable. Childhood obesity
0:35:33 > 0:35:37is a really big problem, it is a time bomb in our society along with
0:35:37 > 0:35:41diabetes and dementia. The two are linked, and diet is really
0:35:41 > 0:35:46important. It will bankrupt the NHS if we don't tackle it on behalf of
0:35:46 > 0:35:50our most vulnerable young citizens. But it is a huge problem, we know
0:35:50 > 0:35:55that, we have politicians like George Freeman telling us. So why
0:35:55 > 0:35:59does a tax on just fizzy drinks go far enough, it is not go to solve
0:35:59 > 0:36:03the problem of childhood obesity?It is part of a solution. There are
0:36:03 > 0:36:07many other things that government should look at doing, for example,
0:36:07 > 0:36:10the promotions on this type of products, which is constantly
0:36:10 > 0:36:14happening all the time. We can incentivise the industry to reduce
0:36:14 > 0:36:17the levels of sugar but then there are other products which are heavily
0:36:17 > 0:36:23promoted, on discount all the time, advertising during family TV time,
0:36:23 > 0:36:28we need to look at these other areas.Would you be happy for that?
0:36:28 > 0:36:32Yeah, and I think we need to look at much more sport in schools. I don't
0:36:32 > 0:36:36mean the tyranny of the few of us who were not very athletic civil
0:36:36 > 0:36:40everybody doing exercise built into the school day. I would like our
0:36:40 > 0:36:43planning system to build exercise into the community. We are still
0:36:43 > 0:36:47building housing estates designed for three cars. Building exercise
0:36:47 > 0:36:51into the fabric of our society.What about the evidence that the tax will
0:36:51 > 0:36:55actually work in terms of changing habits and reducing obesity?For the
0:36:55 > 0:37:00countries who have already had an increase in tax and in price, it has
0:37:00 > 0:37:05had an impact in reducing levels of drink Spearing consumed.Where?
0:37:05 > 0:37:08Mexico, for example, and particularly in the socially
0:37:08 > 0:37:12deprived areas, because they ended up having less of those. And they
0:37:12 > 0:37:16kind of incentivised those consumers to go for the lowest sugar options,
0:37:16 > 0:37:21water and the others.But was the evidence conclusive in Mexico? I
0:37:21 > 0:37:25understand that after a year or so the levels at it to go up again in
0:37:25 > 0:37:29terms of consumption of fizzy drinks?No, I think the first stage
0:37:29 > 0:37:34of evidence suggests there is a 12% reduction in intake.Coca-Cola have
0:37:34 > 0:37:38decreased their sizes of bottles and increased their pricing?So, this is
0:37:38 > 0:37:43one of the reasons, one of the ways that those companies are going to
0:37:43 > 0:37:46try and retrieve the cost of the levy, by increasing prices.
0:37:46 > 0:37:50Initially, when this lovely was going to come into play, it was
0:37:50 > 0:37:54actually not necessarily going to be price hikes. And it is not
0:37:54 > 0:37:58necessarily a negative thing that sugary drink Speaker more expensive,
0:37:58 > 0:38:01because they are having a huge cost on society.The Treasury downgraded
0:38:01 > 0:38:06their forecast of the money that would be raised from more than £500
0:38:06 > 0:38:12million to £380 million, you think that is good news, but it is less
0:38:12 > 0:38:16money to be spent on for instance promoting sport?It tells you the
0:38:16 > 0:38:20industry is adapting very fast. One worry is the government taxing
0:38:20 > 0:38:23things and getting keen on the revenue. I did not want the
0:38:23 > 0:38:27government dependent on a sugar tax. Even if it is going to promote more
0:38:27 > 0:38:31sport in schools, which is what you said should be part of the holistic
0:38:31 > 0:38:35approach?It is part of the next. But I think the fact that revenues
0:38:35 > 0:38:38from the sugar tax are dropping is a sign that the industry is very
0:38:38 > 0:38:43quickly adapting. The British drink industry is highly adaptable, it is
0:38:43 > 0:38:46one of the jewels in our crown. Lets use the text to incentivise sugar
0:38:46 > 0:38:50substitution but also recognise that it is only one to.Where would you
0:38:50 > 0:38:55like the government to use the revenues raised?It could be used on
0:38:55 > 0:39:01the NHS, on school sports. The aim of it is not necessarily revenue
0:39:01 > 0:39:03raising, it is to incentivise the industry to reduce levels of sugar.
0:39:03 > 0:39:08The emphasis has been on drinks, on fizzy drinks, but confectionery
0:39:08 > 0:39:12accounts for quite a substantial amount of young people consuming
0:39:12 > 0:39:17sugar. If you wanted to solve the obesity crisis, would you, George,
0:39:17 > 0:39:21be in support of extending the tax to sweets and chocolates?I would
0:39:21 > 0:39:26want to look at the evidence. I think potentially. But it is
0:39:26 > 0:39:30absolutely crucial that we're not denying people a bar of chocolate.
0:39:30 > 0:39:34People like chocolate. It is part of human nature.But you want to
0:39:34 > 0:39:39deprive them of fizzy drinks?No, I want them to buy something which is
0:39:39 > 0:39:43not putting pounds on them. Something which is a pleasure. We
0:39:43 > 0:39:46mustn't become puritans taking pleasure out of life. But if we took
0:39:46 > 0:39:50the calories out so that you get the pleasure without the fat and the
0:39:50 > 0:39:53obesity, that's surely a good thing. Well, when you find a solution to
0:39:53 > 0:40:02that, do let me know, because I am partial to a bar of chocolate!
0:40:02 > 0:40:05The Ukip leader Henry Bolton has said he will not stand down,
0:40:05 > 0:40:07despite facing a wave of party resignations in protest
0:40:07 > 0:40:09at his leadership.
0:40:09 > 0:40:11On Sunday, Ukip's National Executive Committee declared that it had lost
0:40:11 > 0:40:13confidence in Mr Bolton after allegations
0:40:13 > 0:40:14about his private life.
0:40:14 > 0:40:16But Mr Bolton has hit back saying he in turn has lost
0:40:16 > 0:40:18confidence in the NEC.
0:40:18 > 0:40:23Here he is speaking to reporters yesterday.
0:40:23 > 0:40:27I shall respect the next steps in the constitutional process, and will
0:40:27 > 0:40:31therefore not be resigning as party leader. I shall repeat, I will not
0:40:31 > 0:40:37be resigning as party leader. Instep, during the next four weeks,
0:40:37 > 0:40:41I shall be calling for the coordination and mobilisation of all
0:40:41 > 0:40:45Leave campaigns to ensure that the government delivers full
0:40:45 > 0:40:48independence from the European Union in all areas of government at the
0:40:48 > 0:40:51administration. And I shall be calling for the party itself to
0:40:51 > 0:40:58mobilise in order to support that effort. This is the most pressing
0:40:58 > 0:41:03matter facing our nation. And I am determined not to allow the NEC to
0:41:03 > 0:41:05distract the party away from participating forcefully in the
0:41:05 > 0:41:11independence debate.Henry Boldon giving that press statement
0:41:11 > 0:41:13yesterday.
0:41:13 > 0:41:15David Allen is Ukip's spokesman on electoral reform
0:41:15 > 0:41:17and is a supporter of Henry Bolton.
0:41:17 > 0:41:19Peter Whittle is the former deputy leader of Ukip,
0:41:19 > 0:41:24and has called for Mr Bolton to stand down.
0:41:24 > 0:41:26What was your reaction when you heard he was going to fight on?
0:41:26 > 0:41:31Depressed, actually. Because the fact is that basically one man's
0:41:31 > 0:41:38vanity is basically spooling this thing out over and over, the party
0:41:38 > 0:41:44is being made to look ridiculous. If in fact he had been supported by the
0:41:44 > 0:41:48NEC, we would not be hearing about all of this stuff about electoral
0:41:48 > 0:41:52reform in the party and the NEC. It is a massive distraction to get away
0:41:52 > 0:41:57from what is the real problem, and that is that Henry Bolton should go.
0:41:57 > 0:41:59I've just come from actually talking somebody back from leaving the
0:41:59 > 0:42:06party. This is what one is dealing with everyday now.David Allen,
0:42:06 > 0:42:10you're a supporter of Henry Bolton, the party is imploding, more than 15
0:42:10 > 0:42:15people have stood down, surely he has to go?Certainly there is a bit
0:42:15 > 0:42:19of a herd mentality about it. I tend to think they're following the wrong
0:42:19 > 0:42:22scent of. The reason why I am supporting Henry Bolton is exactly
0:42:22 > 0:42:26the same reason that I supported him in the leadership campaign. I stood
0:42:26 > 0:42:29in the leadership campaign, as repeater, and I stood down to
0:42:29 > 0:42:34support Henry Bolton because firstly, his agenda for reforming
0:42:34 > 0:42:38the party was something that I strongly believe in. And secondly I
0:42:38 > 0:42:42thought he would win. Now, you have to recognise that for a long time
0:42:42 > 0:42:45there has been a huge disconnect between the leadership of the party
0:42:45 > 0:42:51and the mothership at the grassroots.Peter Whittle, even
0:42:51 > 0:42:55Nigel Farage says that the party is run by a bunch of amateurs, and that
0:42:55 > 0:42:59it is hardly surprising that there has been this massive fallout?
0:42:59 > 0:43:04Because Nigel has got a thing about the NEC, fair enough. He is entitled
0:43:04 > 0:43:09to that. The point is, Henry has been in since September. He stood on
0:43:09 > 0:43:13reform and all the rest of it - nothing has happened. There has been
0:43:13 > 0:43:17no communication, there has been no reform, virtually no media presence,
0:43:17 > 0:43:21until we get this kind of media presence, which of course makes us a
0:43:21 > 0:43:26laughing stock. It is simply unsustainable.Before this all blew
0:43:26 > 0:43:30up, what great political direction was Henry Bolton taking the party in
0:43:30 > 0:43:36the 11 of the things that Henry Bolton wants to do is to introduce
0:43:36 > 0:43:39an inclusivity agenda so that we would involve membership in policy
0:43:39 > 0:43:43making. Because there's been a huge gap between the leadership and the
0:43:43 > 0:43:46membership in the party. Peter says that's not happening - it is,
0:43:46 > 0:43:50because I have already put my group together and we had our first
0:43:50 > 0:43:53meeting last Friday. Have already drafted a manifesto commitment for
0:43:53 > 0:43:57Ukip in the area of electoral reform. Are the things which are
0:43:57 > 0:44:01changing our work to repair the IT system. We have an e-mail system,
0:44:01 > 0:44:03for example, which arbitrarily leaves out a third of the members
0:44:03 > 0:44:08every time we send an e-mail. Are these things going to save Ukip?The
0:44:08 > 0:44:12fact is at the moment, we are going through an amazingly important time
0:44:12 > 0:44:17with Brexit. It is an open goal for us. It's all very well going on
0:44:17 > 0:44:20about e-mail systems and the rest of it, which basically will mean
0:44:20 > 0:44:25nothing to anyone outside. We should be making the argument, we have been
0:44:25 > 0:44:29absolutely absent for the past four months, and as I say again, the
0:44:29 > 0:44:32first time people actually hear of our new leader is because he has
0:44:32 > 0:44:36just left his wife and kids just before Christmas to go off with some
0:44:36 > 0:44:39woman who has basically texted things which are almost beyond
0:44:39 > 0:44:45racist.What do you think about that? That is what has caused this
0:44:45 > 0:44:51latest row - has Henry Boldon cut off all relations with the person
0:44:51 > 0:44:54responsible for these tweets?I am not privy to that, you will have to
0:44:54 > 0:44:59ask Henry. My understanding is that she has resigned from the party,
0:44:59 > 0:45:03which is right. Also that Henry was unaware of these tweets, which were
0:45:03 > 0:45:06made before they met. Be fair if it were marital breakdown is always to
0:45:06 > 0:45:14stressing. It is often acrimonious. And if you enter a new relationship,
0:45:14 > 0:45:19your first conversation is not going to be, hello, darling, two years ago
0:45:19 > 0:45:23I think I sent a tweet which might be offensive. So, Henry didn't know
0:45:23 > 0:45:26about that. Henry Bolton hasn't done anything wrong. But what he has been
0:45:26 > 0:45:30doing is travelling the country speaking to members, introducing
0:45:30 > 0:45:35reform produced as prettily needed. Why is his private life of so much
0:45:35 > 0:45:39concerned?It is not a question of morality. I think that the racism,
0:45:39 > 0:45:44yes, is important, actually. This party, particularly, and I have been
0:45:44 > 0:45:48on this show talking about it, fights these kind of accusations all
0:45:48 > 0:45:51the time, we're always trying to show people that we are not racist
0:45:51 > 0:45:55and then along comes something like this. And since it has happened it
0:45:55 > 0:45:59has been the sheer ineptitude with which Henry Bolton has gone on the
0:45:59 > 0:46:02media, seemingly wanting to dig a bigger hole for himself every single
0:46:02 > 0:46:07day. What worries me is that this party is a great party which has
0:46:07 > 0:46:11moved political mountains. I do not like to see it being made to look
0:46:11 > 0:46:14silly and at the moment it is being. Do you think it is in the death
0:46:14 > 0:46:19throes? But is it? At the moment things are looking grave, I what
0:46:19 > 0:46:24does not help at all, is that we have to go through something through
0:46:24 > 0:46:27an AGM.A huge amount of money, all the rest of it, at the very time we
0:46:27 > 0:46:33should be fighting what is happening with this government and the inept
0:46:33 > 0:46:37handling of Brexit.Extraordinary general meeting happening, Willis
0:46:37 > 0:46:41before the members to decide? Can you win it?This is interesting,
0:46:41 > 0:46:45because of a quirk in the constitution, what the NEC has done
0:46:45 > 0:46:50is the equivalent of pistols at dawn! It is either Henry Bolton
0:46:50 > 0:46:59those, or, the NEC goes.With that be the end of the party? Executive
0:46:59 > 0:47:02collapses?Know, the NEC is a consistent obstacle to reform the
0:47:02 > 0:47:08party for as long as I have been in it, we talk about Nigel, but then
0:47:08 > 0:47:12there is Diane James, then there is Paul Nuttall, all these battles with
0:47:12 > 0:47:17the NIC -- NEC, we are on the fourth leader, third leadership contest,
0:47:17 > 0:47:22and apparently Peter wants a fourth leadership contest...I do not.We
0:47:22 > 0:47:26might as well pencil in the fifth, for next year.No, no. What if he
0:47:26 > 0:47:31stands down, there will be another leadership contest. The last thing
0:47:31 > 0:47:35we need, yes, we need an interim leader, I have said for a long time,
0:47:35 > 0:47:39get us through the May elections, should be talking about the May
0:47:39 > 0:47:42elections, talking that Brexit, instead of talking that tinkering
0:47:42 > 0:47:47around with an e-mail system and the rest of it. If Henry Bolton had a
0:47:47 > 0:47:51shred of personal pride, he would have gone after the NEC...Isn't
0:47:51 > 0:47:56this the case, that this is a vanity project, the face of everything
0:47:56 > 0:48:00collapsing around him, in terms of all his team designing, all this
0:48:00 > 0:48:04publicity, bad publicity, getting there, pretty well, 15 or so, that
0:48:04 > 0:48:10he should do the decent thing and go?One of the things that a
0:48:10 > 0:48:17political party leader needs is resilience. Now, in Ukip, you
0:48:17 > 0:48:21probably need resilience doubled. Henry Bolton certainly has that.
0:48:21 > 0:48:26What is happening now, is we have just under 4000 people are letting
0:48:26 > 0:48:32him as leader, only 3.5 months ago, that cannot be overturned. By 13
0:48:32 > 0:48:35people. It will go to a next ordinary general meeting and what is
0:48:35 > 0:48:41that Henry Bolton will win this, the NEC will resign, a new NEC will be
0:48:41 > 0:48:44put in place, we can then move forward to change the constitution
0:48:44 > 0:48:51and the structure.Will you accept the result, if Henry Bolton is
0:48:51 > 0:48:55elected if the EGM supports the leadership, will you accept it?Yes,
0:48:55 > 0:48:59but it will not happen, I don't know what world you are living in that
0:48:59 > 0:49:04every single day is getting resignations, whole branches are
0:49:04 > 0:49:08going, over the past four months, people do not even know what Henry
0:49:08 > 0:49:12even thinks about certain political issues, they have no idea where the
0:49:12 > 0:49:16party is going. They are quite right to be frustrated and they are faced
0:49:16 > 0:49:21with all of this.I have a feeling it will continue for a few days and
0:49:21 > 0:49:30weeks at least. Thank you for coming in.
0:49:30 > 0:49:34Now, Labour's ruling body,
0:49:34 > 0:49:35the National Executive committee or NEC,
0:49:35 > 0:49:36meets today.
0:49:36 > 0:49:39Not normally a major news event I grant you.
0:49:39 > 0:49:41But it's the first meeting of the NEC since the election
0:49:41 > 0:49:43of three new members, most notably the Momentum
0:49:43 > 0:49:44founder Jon Lansman.
0:49:44 > 0:49:46So what does it all mean?
0:49:46 > 0:49:48Our correspondentIain Watson is outside Labour HQ.
0:49:48 > 0:49:50What is being discussed?Various things that are on the agenda, what
0:49:50 > 0:49:54is not being discussed, this demonstration behind me, people
0:49:54 > 0:49:57against expulsion from the Labour Party, we can talk about that in a
0:49:57 > 0:50:02moment. What is on the agenda, Labour officials are stressing,
0:50:02 > 0:50:06mainstream political issues like the state of the NHS, the collapse of
0:50:06 > 0:50:10Carillion, other issues on the agenda as well, report back from the
0:50:10 > 0:50:14first phase of Labour's democracy review. It is a long-term review
0:50:14 > 0:50:20looking into how the party organises at a level, reports from the Labour
0:50:20 > 0:50:24Party conference. Some speculation about it being used as a vehicle to
0:50:24 > 0:50:29deselect sitting Labour MPs. That is not officially part of the remit.
0:50:29 > 0:50:33Any discussion that takes place would be outside of the official
0:50:33 > 0:50:37democracy review. That may well change to magically. What the Labour
0:50:37 > 0:50:41Party does in terms of organising at grassroots level in due course. --
0:50:41 > 0:50:47that may well change dramatically. Also, talk about whether there can
0:50:47 > 0:50:52be transgender candidates on all women short lists, this is being
0:50:52 > 0:50:55discussed in subcommittees, it is controversial because some people in
0:50:55 > 0:51:00the party believe men should not be allowed to self define as women and
0:51:00 > 0:51:05get onto all women short lists, and in their view should have two
0:51:05 > 0:51:08produce gender recognition certificate. Others say that is
0:51:08 > 0:51:10dissemination and we expect a statement from the Labour ruling
0:51:10 > 0:51:15body later on this afternoon. The first sign that the political
0:51:15 > 0:51:20balance has shifted to the left, cannot think of any more evidence
0:51:20 > 0:51:24from the official agenda.Tell us about this campaign, Labour against
0:51:24 > 0:51:30the witchhunt which has been launched.The campaign which has
0:51:30 > 0:51:34been launched a few months ago, they are lobbying the NEC to try to stop
0:51:34 > 0:51:37the expulsions of people they say are being thrown out of the party
0:51:37 > 0:51:41for having effectively left-wing views. People to the left of Labour
0:51:41 > 0:51:47in the past, then wanted to come into the Labour Party, generally
0:51:47 > 0:51:50would say to support Jeremy Corbyn and are now being chucked out
0:51:50 > 0:51:54because of views they have expressed in the past. Under mental do this is
0:51:54 > 0:51:58the question of anti-Zionism against anti-Semitism, the items they make
0:51:58 > 0:52:03is that the issues have been conflated and some people accused of
0:52:03 > 0:52:08anti-Semitism in order to get them expelled from the Labour Party. I
0:52:08 > 0:52:12will be speaking with one of them very soon, it is coming up at the
0:52:12 > 0:52:20national constitution committee. They will be deciding whether there
0:52:20 > 0:52:26will be any expulsions.
0:52:26 > 0:52:29will be any expulsions.Lobbying today's NEC meeting to demand an end
0:52:29 > 0:52:32to what they call a witchhunt against the pro-Corbyn left in the
0:52:32 > 0:52:40Labour Party, the group is called Labour Against the Witchhunt. Jackie
0:52:40 > 0:52:43Walker is among them - she was suspended by the party in September
0:52:43 > 0:52:452016 following allegations of anti-semitism. She joins me now. One
0:52:45 > 0:52:47of the things that resulted in your current suspension of your Labour
0:52:47 > 0:52:50Party membership, he said, I still haven't heard a definition of
0:52:50 > 0:52:55anti-Semitism that I can work with. The Labour Party has adopted the
0:52:55 > 0:52:58International Holocaust Rembrandts Alliance definition of
0:52:58 > 0:53:01anti-Semitism, do you accept that as a definition you can work with?It
0:53:01 > 0:53:07is not clear what it has accepted. -- remembrance Alliance. It has
0:53:07 > 0:53:12accepted a headline definition, we have been told. Anti-Semitism as a
0:53:12 > 0:53:16certain perception of jurors people that could be seen as hatred against
0:53:16 > 0:53:19US people.Of course we would accept that but not the following
0:53:19 > 0:53:24definitions which as far as we are concerned linked to much criticism
0:53:24 > 0:53:29of Israel, with racism, with anti-Semitism.-- Jewish. Rhetorical
0:53:29 > 0:53:41and physical ... The accept what has been said by this body?As far as
0:53:41 > 0:53:47I'm concerned, and I'm saying this as an anti-racist train of some
0:53:47 > 0:53:51years, as somebody who has been on the barricades against fascists, I
0:53:51 > 0:53:57like to stick to the nice simple definition of anti-Semitism, used
0:53:57 > 0:54:05hatred against you
0:54:05 > 0:54:07hatred against you is -- hatred against Jewish people because they
0:54:07 > 0:54:11are Jewish. We are going into cloudy waters. We have had counsel opinion
0:54:11 > 0:54:14which says that those following definitions will not hold up in
0:54:14 > 0:54:20court.Shouldn't parties be able to set their own definitions and rules,
0:54:20 > 0:54:24they may be a broad church, as the Labour Party always says, but they
0:54:24 > 0:54:27have the right to suspend people who do not sign up to broad principles
0:54:27 > 0:54:32and aims, including you. Absolutely. That is what they have done, so what
0:54:32 > 0:54:37is the problem?They have the right to do that but of course, what I'm
0:54:37 > 0:54:42saying is they have not accepted the full definition...That is what the
0:54:42 > 0:54:45Labour Party has said, they have accepted that as the definition, if
0:54:45 > 0:54:51you don't sign up to that, do you accept...I do not access that what
0:54:51 > 0:54:56you are saying is correct. As a member of Jewish voice for Labour
0:54:56 > 0:55:03and other jewel Jewish Labour organisations. We have been told
0:55:03 > 0:55:07something very different.That maybe something you need to take up the
0:55:07 > 0:55:10Labour Party.The reason having this conversation, under the leadership
0:55:10 > 0:55:16of Jeremy Corbyn, we have seen a rise of a nasty, violent, outrageous
0:55:16 > 0:55:18language on social media, campaigning in the last election
0:55:18 > 0:55:24against conservatives and others, anti-Semitic language, racist
0:55:24 > 0:55:27language, Clive Lewis Sein gets down on your needs at the conference...
0:55:27 > 0:55:37Don't use that word...-- Clive Lewis saying.A once great party...
0:55:37 > 0:55:42I think what you have said is outrageous... Coming from a party
0:55:42 > 0:55:48who has a Foreign Secretary who has made racist statements about the
0:55:48 > 0:55:50former President of the United States, Barack Obama, and called
0:55:50 > 0:55:59people of African descent picking anys with water well and
0:56:05 > 0:56:14smiles -- "pickannines with watermelon smiles".That is not
0:56:14 > 0:56:20racist. We are seeing the research and is of nasty, vitriolic politics.
0:56:20 > 0:56:24Women who were targeted because they are women, horrible things written
0:56:24 > 0:56:29on houses and windows.Do you know what has been said about me?Answer
0:56:29 > 0:56:35the claims that have been made, they are not just me by George, they are
0:56:35 > 0:56:39games made by elements within momentum and within the hard left,
0:56:39 > 0:56:46do you accept that it exists?What I accept exists at the moment is a
0:56:46 > 0:56:50very dangerous atmosphere and culture on social media, if I could
0:56:50 > 0:56:55tell you how many threats and abuse I have had, including from people
0:56:55 > 0:57:00who claim to be Tory members, and these have been threats to have me
0:57:00 > 0:57:06hanged, to have me burned alive, to have me rape...If they are Tory
0:57:06 > 0:57:10members, they should be dealt with, but they are not.Will you send them
0:57:10 > 0:57:17to him?I will, this is happening to women and black women. Diane Abbott,
0:57:17 > 0:57:22if you remember, has had more abuse than anybody...And we know, and we
0:57:22 > 0:57:26have talked about that but talking about your suspension, you have
0:57:26 > 0:57:29called this a witchhunt, all of this has happened while Jeremy Corbyn has
0:57:29 > 0:57:35been leader.Exactly.The momentum steering committee removed you as
0:57:35 > 0:57:40vice-chair, calling your behaviour irresponsible and remarks offensive,
0:57:40 > 0:57:43cannot be a politically motivated witchhunt, these are the people you
0:57:43 > 0:57:47support.Can I say one thing about this, I must be careful what I
0:57:47 > 0:57:51say...Will you answer the question? My case is just about to go through
0:57:51 > 0:57:58a hearing, I am not allowed to answer particularly on headbutt...
0:57:58 > 0:58:02You are calling a witchhunt. It is not coincidence that it happened as
0:58:02 > 0:58:08Jeremy Corbyn became a leader of the Labour Party, because, of course, he
0:58:08 > 0:58:11is the only national figure that has risen to that prominence it has been
0:58:11 > 0:58:21a supporter of the Palestinians.Of his
0:58:23 > 0:58:27the Labour Party is not one set dictated peace of organisation.--
0:58:27 > 0:58:30his brother.
0:58:36 > 0:58:40We have run out of time. The answer to the quiz, who was photographed at
0:58:40 > 0:58:42Disneyland Paris while his wife was having meetings in the French
0:58:42 > 0:58:47capital.
0:58:49 > 0:58:52"Yes," Cameron confirms in a message to Politico.
0:58:52 > 0:58:59He was wearing a flat cap, not easy to recognise him.
0:58:59 > 0:59:01"It rained a lot so I bought a hat!
0:59:01 > 0:59:04I haven't joined the Peaky Blinders, or become Bob Crow,
0:59:04 > 0:59:09just trying to stay warm and dry."