0:00:39 > 0:00:43Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:43 > 0:00:47Theresa May is told to 'get a grip' by her own MPs -
0:00:47 > 0:00:49so is the Prime Minister's future at risk, and what exactly
0:00:49 > 0:00:53are her critics asking for?
0:00:53 > 0:00:56While all of that's going on here, the EU is meeting to agree
0:00:56 > 0:00:59its opening gambit for the next stage of the Brexit negotiations -
0:00:59 > 0:01:04we'll have all the details.
0:01:04 > 0:01:07Labour's councils say the party's ruling body has no right
0:01:07 > 0:01:09to intervene in local decisions like those in Haringey,
0:01:09 > 0:01:11north London, and says it's set a "dangerous and
0:01:11 > 0:01:14alarming" precedent.
0:01:14 > 0:01:17And we know the corridors of power have seen better days -
0:01:17 > 0:01:20so will MPs this week finally agree to move out to let
0:01:20 > 0:01:28the builders in to Parliament?
0:01:30 > 0:01:37All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole
0:01:37 > 0:01:40of the programme today two MPs who have temporarily located
0:01:40 > 0:01:42to the slightly less delapidated surroundings of the Daily Politics
0:01:42 > 0:01:45studio - it's Cat Smith from Labour and Bim Afolami
0:01:45 > 0:01:46from the Conservatives.
0:01:46 > 0:01:47Welcome to the programme.
0:01:47 > 0:01:49First today, the former Education Secretary Justine Greening,
0:01:49 > 0:01:51who left the Cabinet in January, has been setting out some
0:01:51 > 0:01:53of her criticisms of the current student finance model.
0:01:53 > 0:01:58Here she is talking to the Today programme earlier...
0:01:58 > 0:02:01The fact that there's a maintenance loan that's now replaced the grant,
0:02:01 > 0:02:05and that means, I think wrongly, to be perfectly frank,
0:02:05 > 0:02:09that young people from more disadvantaged,
0:02:09 > 0:02:12poorer backgrounds are coming out, like for like, on the same course,
0:02:12 > 0:02:14with more debt than their better-off peers.
0:02:14 > 0:02:17So you think, replace the maintenance grant, go back to the
0:02:17 > 0:02:19maintenance grant, which is about a 2 billion...
0:02:19 > 0:02:20it's not a small cost, it's
0:02:20 > 0:02:23about a 2 billion annual cost, a it's significant thing to do.
0:02:23 > 0:02:25I think we have to have a student finance system
0:02:25 > 0:02:29that's progressive.
0:02:29 > 0:02:33Justine Greening, the former Education Secretary. Do you agree
0:02:33 > 0:02:38with her that they should be a return to the maintenance grant,
0:02:38 > 0:02:43Bim?I have sympathy with that view but we need to look at tuition fees
0:02:43 > 0:02:49in the round. I've heard that from my constituencies, that issue, but
0:02:49 > 0:02:54the level of the fees, and the whole system has to be looked at together.
0:02:54 > 0:03:00And when you say look at it in the round, do you have a sympathy for a
0:03:00 > 0:03:03return to the maintenance grant? Do you believe students from poorer
0:03:03 > 0:03:10backgrounds have suffered due to changes to that loan?If you look at
0:03:10 > 0:03:14participation of those students, it is higher than it was since before
0:03:14 > 0:03:17the Conservative government came into office in 2010. I don't agree
0:03:17 > 0:03:20are seeing that in the evidence, in terms of poorer students believing
0:03:20 > 0:03:24that they do want to go to university more and more.If you
0:03:24 > 0:03:28think it has been a success, why do you want to change it back to a
0:03:28 > 0:03:31maintenance grant?I said I have sympathy with the idea, it needs to
0:03:31 > 0:03:35be looked at in the round but we need to look at improving the
0:03:35 > 0:03:39system, there is no point in looking at something statically, we can look
0:03:39 > 0:03:44at how the system has been improved in the future.One way is bringing
0:03:44 > 0:03:50down a relatively high interest rate on loans. Do you support that? And,
0:03:50 > 0:03:54personally, I do. It seems odd speaking to constituents that we do
0:03:54 > 0:03:58have this interest rate that is very high. I do have a lot of sympathy
0:03:58 > 0:04:03that but it needs to be looked at in the round alongside the maintenance
0:04:03 > 0:04:07grant, the level of tuition fees and the system as a whole. How low
0:04:07 > 0:04:11should interest rates be?I don't know, that needs to be looked at and
0:04:11 > 0:04:17calculate it in accordance with the review.Cat, is it Labour's policy
0:04:17 > 0:04:21to abolish or tuition fees? Absolutely, the manifesto we went
0:04:21 > 0:04:25into the general election on is as it stands. We do not know when the
0:04:25 > 0:04:29next election will be an policy will continue to develop. It's
0:04:29 > 0:04:33interesting, those comments on maintenance grants. I was at the
0:04:33 > 0:04:38Lancaster University meeting of the court, the senior management at the
0:04:38 > 0:04:41university plus representatives and students. What really came across
0:04:41 > 0:04:44from the students union in terms of their presentation is students
0:04:44 > 0:04:52facing a cost of living crisis.Do you accept numbers of students from
0:04:52 > 0:04:56poorer backgrounds has not tailed off in terms of going to university?
0:04:56 > 0:05:00The facts are there but it is clear that students who come from less
0:05:00 > 0:05:04well-off backgrounds are graduating with more debt. I do not think
0:05:04 > 0:05:10anyone can argue that that is a fair outcome from the system currently in
0:05:10 > 0:05:14place.What is the solution and Labour's policy to historic debt
0:05:14 > 0:05:21now?During the election, we did not have a pledge or commitment on that.
0:05:21 > 0:05:25In an interview widely promoted by certain conservatives about what
0:05:25 > 0:05:28Jeremy Corbyn said, he acknowledged it is a problem.He said he would
0:05:28 > 0:05:35deal with it, do Labour cabbie solution on how to -- have a
0:05:35 > 0:05:38solution?We have an intergenerational fairness issue
0:05:38 > 0:05:42going on here. We have young people going into higher education and that
0:05:42 > 0:05:46is great but they are graduating with huge amounts of debt and going
0:05:46 > 0:05:50into a life where house prices have increased but wages are kept low.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53There is a real sense of unfairness and that that holds people back.
0:05:53 > 0:05:58Where would you like to see the policy announced? It is a big issue,
0:05:58 > 0:06:04as you say, and there are claims of intergenerational unfairness. When
0:06:04 > 0:06:09will Labour publicise its
0:06:10 > 0:06:12will Labour publicise its policy on how to deal with historic debt? The
0:06:12 > 0:06:15next scheduled general election is not for 4.5 years... We had to wait
0:06:15 > 0:06:18that long?I hope the next general election is sooner and that then
0:06:18 > 0:06:21they will be able to present a policy.All right, then.
0:06:21 > 0:06:23The Prime Minister is chairing a meeting of her cabinet
0:06:23 > 0:06:25sub-committee on Brexit this morning, where ministers
0:06:25 > 0:06:27will discuss the UK's future relationship with the EU.
0:06:27 > 0:06:29But over in Brussels, the foreign ministers
0:06:29 > 0:06:32of the remaining 27 EU countries are meeting to mark an important
0:06:32 > 0:06:34point in the Brexit process, as they finalise their negotiating
0:06:34 > 0:06:38stance on the transition period immediately after Brexit.
0:06:38 > 0:06:42Also referred to as the implementation phase,
0:06:42 > 0:06:46it's the period of a few years after we leave in March next year.
0:06:46 > 0:06:49So let's look at the key issues that will be up for negotiation.
0:06:49 > 0:06:57How long will the transition last?
0:06:58 > 0:07:02The UK has said about two years while the EU has
0:07:02 > 0:07:04suggested December 2020...
0:07:04 > 0:07:06The EU wants the UK to continue honouring all treaties,
0:07:06 > 0:07:08free-trade agreements and other arrangements between the EU
0:07:08 > 0:07:10and other countries.
0:07:10 > 0:07:15It doesn't want the UK to sign any deals of its own, although the UK
0:07:15 > 0:07:18says it can negotiate and even signed deals to come into effect
0:07:18 > 0:07:21after transition.
0:07:21 > 0:07:23The EU wants freedom of movement to continue as before,
0:07:23 > 0:07:26but the government is planning to introduce a registration system
0:07:26 > 0:07:28for EU citizens coming to live in the UK during the transition
0:07:28 > 0:07:29period.
0:07:29 > 0:07:34The EU wants the UK to comply with all EU laws and regulations
0:07:34 > 0:07:42during transition, including any changes made without UK approval...
0:07:45 > 0:07:48But the government has said it wants a new mechanism to vet any
0:07:48 > 0:07:50disagreements over new rules brought in during the transition.
0:07:50 > 0:07:52Our man in Brussels Adam Fleming joins us now...
0:07:52 > 0:07:58Welcome back to the programme. What should we expect?What we should
0:07:58 > 0:08:02expect in the next few minutes is the European affairs ministers from
0:08:02 > 0:08:08the remaining 27 EU countries arriving on the red carpet.
0:08:08 > 0:08:10I've seen the Austrian representative, the Danish and the
0:08:10 > 0:08:14Barbarian. They will stop, it's an opportunity for us to ask them
0:08:14 > 0:08:20questions about the Brexit process and shenanigans there. They will sit
0:08:20 > 0:08:25down for a meeting at 3:30pm, then they will publish their negotiation
0:08:25 > 0:08:28directives, a document setting out their positions on this transition
0:08:28 > 0:08:33period, which the artist government prefers to call an implementation
0:08:33 > 0:08:40phase. Michel Barnier, the chief negotiator, we haven't heard from
0:08:40 > 0:08:43him in a little while, then he has the green light to talk formerly
0:08:43 > 0:08:47with the British government about getting details of this
0:08:47 > 0:08:51implementation phase nailed down. The British government would like
0:08:51 > 0:08:54this to be a big political agreement about transition terms, by the time
0:08:54 > 0:08:59of the neck summit of EU leaders, which will be on the 23rd of March.
0:08:59 > 0:09:02Are there any signs of agreement between the two sides broadly on
0:09:02 > 0:09:08transition?Well, the British government's view and the view of
0:09:08 > 0:09:10British officials is these transition guidelines have been
0:09:10 > 0:09:15drawn up as a result of a request from the UK and a speech the Prime
0:09:15 > 0:09:19Minister made in Florence, she said that she wants access to other
0:09:19 > 0:09:24markets to continue on current terms. The UK Spain, if you like, is
0:09:24 > 0:09:29that these are directives drawn up with the UK in mind. The EU say that
0:09:29 > 0:09:33this is what we are offering you and is the only way it can be done, with
0:09:33 > 0:09:37UK sticking to all of the rules and obligations that basically come with
0:09:37 > 0:09:41EU membership, without being a member of the EU. The big thing that
0:09:41 > 0:09:45will have to be agreed between the two sides in the next few weeks is
0:09:45 > 0:09:51this process for dealing with issues of mutual interest. So, for example,
0:09:51 > 0:09:55fishing quotas, which will have to be set for the year 2020 at a
0:09:55 > 0:10:01meeting of fisheries ministers here in Brussels, in December 20 19. The
0:10:01 > 0:10:05UK will be bound by those fishing quotas. But they will not have a
0:10:05 > 0:10:09seat at the table, technically. A way will have to be found to have
0:10:09 > 0:10:14them nearer to the door, or a stand at the table, rather than a seat at
0:10:14 > 0:10:17the table, whatever metaphor you want to use, so that issue of
0:10:17 > 0:10:22interest can be sorted by the two sides.
0:10:22 > 0:10:23Thank you.
0:10:23 > 0:10:25Let's speak now to the Belgian MEP Philippe Lamberts,
0:10:25 > 0:10:27he's a member of the European Parliament's Brexit Steering Group
0:10:27 > 0:10:28and he's in Brussels...
0:10:28 > 0:10:33In your mind, how long do you think the transition period, or the
0:10:33 > 0:10:40implementation phase, will be?Well, I know that both UK and the European
0:10:40 > 0:10:45Union want this to be short. About two years but frankly speaking, I
0:10:45 > 0:10:49would not bet too much money on this. Looking at the number of
0:10:49 > 0:10:52things that have to be negotiated during the transition period for a
0:10:52 > 0:11:00deal to be finalised, in that period, he would need a long time --
0:11:00 > 0:11:06you would need a lot more time than the two years. You cannot be too
0:11:06 > 0:11:10ideological. Some resent the only way for the UK to keep file access
0:11:10 > 0:11:15to the European single market, in the meantime, means abiding by
0:11:15 > 0:11:20regulation. It is true, it means a number of obligations for the UK but
0:11:20 > 0:11:25also a number of rights. During the transition period. Basically, the
0:11:25 > 0:11:29United Kingdom would be in a quasi-membership status during this
0:11:29 > 0:11:32transition period. It would not set at the table where decisions are
0:11:32 > 0:11:39made. I understand that it is an uncomfortable position but you need
0:11:39 > 0:11:43time to finalise the future relationship.Does that
0:11:43 > 0:11:48quasi-status, as you say, does it mean in terms of membership, would
0:11:48 > 0:11:52you expect the UK to still contribute to the budget, if it were
0:11:52 > 0:11:57to be longer than two years, the transition period?It is part of the
0:11:57 > 0:12:02equation. In her Florence speech, Theresa May conceded that during the
0:12:02 > 0:12:05transition, the UK would contribute in order to secure access to the
0:12:05 > 0:12:16single market. My honest assessment of the commitment made in December,
0:12:16 > 0:12:25not made any bolder in the Irish Sea, -- no border in Ireland. Of
0:12:25 > 0:12:30course, that is what negotiations will tell us.In that negotiation,
0:12:30 > 0:12:33would you accept the fact that a freedom of movement would change,
0:12:33 > 0:12:38even during the transition period, if the UK is developing its own
0:12:38 > 0:12:40registration system, that that would be negotiated as part of
0:12:40 > 0:12:48implementation phases?I don't believe so, there is a large degree
0:12:48 > 0:12:54of unity on the EU 27 side, that while the UK remains fully in the
0:12:54 > 0:12:58customs union, all of the obligations that come with it,
0:12:58 > 0:13:03including free circulation of people, that stance. There isn't
0:13:03 > 0:13:07really any wiggle room there. There is a lot of wiggle room afterwards
0:13:07 > 0:13:11for a future relationship but not during transition.And in terms of
0:13:11 > 0:13:15the rules that you say that Britain would be under the jurisdiction of
0:13:15 > 0:13:19the rules made, any new roles in terms of a transition period, with
0:13:19 > 0:13:23the UK, in your mind, should it be allowed to have an input, still, in
0:13:23 > 0:13:30those roles that would then over Britain?
0:13:30 > 0:13:33Britain?Well, certainly, if Brexit has happened at the end of March
0:13:33 > 0:13:382019, no Brits would sit in the European Parliament in the European
0:13:38 > 0:13:45Commission college, and at European Council yet. I think it would make
0:13:45 > 0:13:49sense, that we receive nonbinding opinions by the British government.
0:13:49 > 0:13:53Also, sometimes there are very good ideas coming out of London and we
0:13:53 > 0:13:56should heed them if they make sense. I have rejoiced at the contributions
0:13:56 > 0:14:00the British governance has been making and I will not change my mind
0:14:00 > 0:14:05afterwards. The key point is that it can be advised and requested that
0:14:05 > 0:14:11they cannot be binding on the 27th. You speak for Parliament, obviously,
0:14:11 > 0:14:15as an MEP. Your view is that you have reflected, on a number of
0:14:15 > 0:14:25issues, do you think that the view of the leaders of the country are
0:14:25 > 0:14:29represented by the council?May be, but on transition I am less adamant
0:14:29 > 0:14:33than some on this. Some say we cannot have a longer transition
0:14:33 > 0:14:38because of the current multi-annual budget framework expires in 2020 and
0:14:38 > 0:14:44it would be cumbersome to draw the next multi-annual budget without the
0:14:44 > 0:14:52UK, but with it taking into account a British contribution but to me, it
0:14:52 > 0:14:56is a nonissue. If the transition has to be longer, it has to be longer. A
0:14:56 > 0:15:00cliff edge would be bad for the EU 27 and the UK. Therefore if we need
0:15:00 > 0:15:06a longer transition period, fine by me. But I know some have been more
0:15:06 > 0:15:12ideological issue on that.Let me bring in a Tory MP guest in the
0:15:12 > 0:15:16studio, Bim, I will come back to you in a moment. What is your reaction
0:15:16 > 0:15:20to a longer transition period, if necessary. He says he thinks it will
0:15:20 > 0:15:25be, no alternative immigration registration system during the
0:15:25 > 0:15:29transition and yes, we would have to take all new rules that come into
0:15:29 > 0:15:34play while we are still in this quasi-should roll?
0:15:34 > 0:15:38I think the most interesting thing that the gentlemen said was that he
0:15:38 > 0:15:44was quite flexible and he thought other EU states would be flexible...
0:15:44 > 0:15:47Not on all of those issues.Around Britain having a say on certain
0:15:47 > 0:15:53rules which would apply to us during the transition period. I think that
0:15:53 > 0:15:57is important. But we shouldn't be too ideological about this. We need
0:15:57 > 0:16:00to make sure that as we leave the European Union we get it right. If
0:16:00 > 0:16:03that means that in the process of those previous, we have to accept
0:16:03 > 0:16:06things that we otherwise won't accept after that period, then we
0:16:06 > 0:16:10have to do so, because I think it's important that when we leave we do
0:16:10 > 0:16:13so on the right terms in the right way.You would be happy to see
0:16:13 > 0:16:21transition go beyond March 2021?I think that when you agree a time
0:16:21 > 0:16:27period, we have got to stick to that, is very important.Why? Going
0:16:27 > 0:16:34to says it will not be achievable?A lot of people have said a lot of
0:16:34 > 0:16:36things are not achievable in this process and they have been achieved.
0:16:36 > 0:16:41We have got to work towards a date and get it done by then.Philippe
0:16:41 > 0:16:46Lamberts, it is now evident that the UK would not be the only country to
0:16:46 > 0:16:52vote to leave the EU in a referendum, you have no doubt heard
0:16:52 > 0:16:55the French president revealing that he believes voters in France would
0:16:55 > 0:17:00do the same if given the choice - hardly a vote of confidence in the
0:17:00 > 0:17:02European Union, is it?I do not share that view. What I witnessed on
0:17:02 > 0:17:05the ground, and not just in my home country, is that yes, there is
0:17:05 > 0:17:13resentment about many policies carried out at European level. But
0:17:13 > 0:17:17that's resentment does not translate into a will to leave. I think the
0:17:17 > 0:17:21vast majority of our citizens want to change the set of policies that
0:17:21 > 0:17:25are carried out at European level, look at the level of inequality that
0:17:25 > 0:17:33we have, for instance, people resent asp and the EU is often seen as a
0:17:33 > 0:17:36vehicle of those inequality policies - well, we need to change that. But
0:17:36 > 0:17:40it is not by chance that Marine Le Pen lost in the French campaign, it
0:17:40 > 0:17:49is not by chance that the populists across Europe are toning down there
0:17:49 > 0:17:50Eurosceptical rhetoric.Emmanuel Macron thought that even despite
0:17:50 > 0:17:55that that French voters would vote to leave if given a referendum?His
0:17:55 > 0:18:00opinion is the same as anyone else's but I do not share that opinion.Is
0:18:00 > 0:18:03it the case in your mind that the EU does have to show it is being very
0:18:03 > 0:18:07tough on Britain, to deter any other member states deciding to hold an
0:18:07 > 0:18:14in-out referendum?No. I think that is bad policy.
0:18:14 > 0:18:15is bad policy. Keeping people together by scaremongering is not a
0:18:15 > 0:18:25good policy. So, we should be fair in our dealings with the UK and
0:18:25 > 0:18:27indeed with obligations. Lack of membership comes with benefits and
0:18:27 > 0:18:36with negatives as well. So, we do not have to make the situation worse
0:18:36 > 0:18:41than it is, because I do believe that for the UK, being out of the
0:18:41 > 0:18:47single market and customs union and being out of many co-operations with
0:18:47 > 0:18:55the European Union is not a good place to be in any think people will
0:18:55 > 0:18:59realise that, without us being forced to darken the picture. I
0:18:59 > 0:19:02think it is not good policy. We should keep an open hand, an
0:19:02 > 0:19:05extended hand, and again, on the issue of the UK having a say, I want
0:19:05 > 0:19:08to be very precise, that the UK can contribute opinions, fine, but it
0:19:08 > 0:19:11cannot have a voice in the decision. The decision is for the 27 to make.
0:19:11 > 0:19:17Philippe Lamberts, thank you very much. So, they could have a voice at
0:19:17 > 0:19:21the table but it wouldn't be binding, they would not have a
0:19:21 > 0:19:23decisive say on rules from the European Court of Justice - would
0:19:23 > 0:19:29you accept that?I think we have got to wait and see what the negotiation
0:19:29 > 0:19:32turns up. He is making the point from the EU's perspective. The
0:19:32 > 0:19:34British Government's view will be different and we will see where we
0:19:34 > 0:19:41get to.Do you agree with the Eurosceptics in the Conservative
0:19:41 > 0:19:44Party that Philip Hammond is a block to Brexit and should be sacked?I
0:19:44 > 0:19:46don't agree with that, I think that's wrong. I think Philip Hammond
0:19:46 > 0:19:48along with the other Cabinet ministers who have spoken to about,
0:19:48 > 0:19:51other issues are working very hard with the Prime Minister to get the
0:19:51 > 0:19:56best deal they can.Cat, on the idea of a second referendum, Jeremy
0:19:56 > 0:20:04Corbyn has said that isn't going to happen. Do you agree with him when
0:20:04 > 0:20:06the vast majority of Labour Party members would like to see a second
0:20:06 > 0:20:11referendum?I do agree with Jeremy Paxman. I campaigned to remain but I
0:20:11 > 0:20:14was clear when I was campaigning that it was the referendum which
0:20:14 > 0:20:18would decide and unfortunately for me I was on the losing side but I
0:20:18 > 0:20:25respect the outcome. And now we have to deliver. But there should be
0:20:25 > 0:20:27binding vote in parliament on the final deal, and that was something
0:20:27 > 0:20:32which the Labour called for.And what sort of customs union does
0:20:32 > 0:20:36Labour want to see with the EU?It is obvious that the EU 27 are some
0:20:36 > 0:20:40of our closest neighbours geographically and we will want to
0:20:40 > 0:20:45continue trading with them. It makes sense to be in A customs union.How
0:20:45 > 0:20:49would that work?This is a long way off now and negotiations are to be
0:20:49 > 0:20:54had on that. But it is important that business in Britain can trade
0:20:54 > 0:20:59with the EU 27 countries.So, you've got the same position, then, with
0:20:59 > 0:21:04the Conservative Party on that?No, I think the direction of travel that
0:21:04 > 0:21:09we are seeing from David Davis and Theresa May is chaotic. Given that
0:21:09 > 0:21:14it is now nearly two years since we had this referendum, to have only
0:21:14 > 0:21:17got this far, I think, is quite irresponsible on the part of the
0:21:17 > 0:21:20government.But we do not know your position at the moment. You say it
0:21:20 > 0:21:25is chaotic, and that might be but in terms of what you're offering, to
0:21:25 > 0:21:28voters, in terms of where you would be with the Brexit negotiations,
0:21:28 > 0:21:32what is the difference in terms of the close alignment with the EU that
0:21:32 > 0:21:36some are saying within the government and what you're offering?
0:21:36 > 0:21:40Well, we don't want to see a Brexit deal that will damage jobs in the
0:21:40 > 0:21:43British economy or reduce environmental and is workers'
0:21:43 > 0:21:46rights. I think the difference between the two parties probably
0:21:46 > 0:21:52rests mostly on that there a lot of Tory Brexiteers who want to rip up
0:21:52 > 0:21:56employment rights and shred environmental protection.Bim, is
0:21:56 > 0:22:00there any risk of that happening? That just rubbish and wrong. In
0:22:00 > 0:22:08relation to the Labour Party, their position is chaotic. You have had
0:22:08 > 0:22:09frontbenchers saying they're definitely going to leave the
0:22:09 > 0:22:12customs union, you've had Diane Abbott saying they want a second
0:22:12 > 0:22:17referendum, you have had others staying that they should stay in the
0:22:17 > 0:22:20customs union, we have had Cat now saying that there should be A
0:22:20 > 0:22:27customs union.But they are not the government at the moment, so can you
0:22:27 > 0:22:29reassure viewers that there would not be any ripping up of workers'
0:22:29 > 0:22:33rights or employment rights, that jobs would not be under threat?No,
0:22:33 > 0:22:36the government has never said, not once, that we want to get rid of
0:22:36 > 0:22:40employment rights or get rid of environmental and, this is just
0:22:40 > 0:22:44completely wrong and frankly it is scaremongering from the Labour Party
0:22:44 > 0:22:46for political reasons, and I don't think that is helping this country
0:22:46 > 0:22:51or anybody get the best deal with the European Union.I think it's
0:22:51 > 0:22:55really clear that there are Tory backbenchers who do want to see that
0:22:55 > 0:23:02kind of Brexit, and what we're seeing, and I hope we're not going
0:23:02 > 0:23:04into another story here, but with Theresa May as weak as she is as
0:23:04 > 0:23:07Prime Minister, she is under immense pressure from the backbenchers to do
0:23:07 > 0:23:11these things like ripping up employment rights and environmental
0:23:11 > 0:23:17edge is.Do you see that Britain is at risk of becoming a vassal state,
0:23:17 > 0:23:22that this idea of remaining in the European Union in all but name is
0:23:22 > 0:23:24now a real prospect, suddenly during the transition and possibly beyond?
0:23:24 > 0:23:29We have talked about the transition, I accept that we will have to accept
0:23:29 > 0:23:36certain European rules that we will not have to afterwards. But more
0:23:36 > 0:23:39generally, the government has been clear from the beginning that we're
0:23:39 > 0:23:42going to leave the single market and leave CUSTOMS union. I don't quite
0:23:42 > 0:23:49know how that makes us a vassal state.In terms of the modest
0:23:49 > 0:23:54changes which Philip Hammond talked about, were you worried about that?
0:23:54 > 0:23:57I have to be honest I haven't seen his speech so I should probably go
0:23:57 > 0:24:02and check out what he said.Theresa May is not short on advice...
0:24:02 > 0:24:05Theresa May isn't short on advice from members of her own party over
0:24:05 > 0:24:08how to handle Brexit, not to mention just about every
0:24:08 > 0:24:09other major area of domestic policy.
0:24:09 > 0:24:11Not all of it is exactly helpful.
0:24:11 > 0:24:13Brexit continues to be the big source of public disagreement.
0:24:13 > 0:24:15The chair of the European Research Group, Jacob Rees-Mogg,
0:24:15 > 0:24:18said that he was "biting his tongue" over Philip Hammond's future,
0:24:18 > 0:24:20whom he accused of disagreeing with government policy.
0:24:20 > 0:24:26While former Northern Ireland Secretary Theresa Villiers said
0:24:26 > 0:24:29the government's policy on Brexit was is in danger of "selling out
0:24:29 > 0:24:33all the people who voted to leave".
0:24:33 > 0:24:38But that's not the view of everyone in the party -
0:24:38 > 0:24:41Anna Soubry tweeted...
0:24:41 > 0:24:44And climate change minister Claire Perry is revealed to have
0:24:44 > 0:24:46sent a message calling critics of the government over the EU
0:24:46 > 0:24:50divorce bill "swivel-eyed men".
0:24:50 > 0:24:52And it's not just Brexit that's been providing her
0:24:52 > 0:24:56critics with ammunition.
0:24:56 > 0:25:04Former minister Robert Halfon told the BBC...
0:25:05 > 0:25:11And Heidi Allen accused the "old guard" of failing
0:25:11 > 0:25:14to understand "why we need to change", adding...
0:25:14 > 0:25:18To help us make sense of all of this we're joined now by Kate McCann
0:25:18 > 0:25:22of the Telegraph and Tom McTague of the website Politico...
0:25:22 > 0:25:28Welcome to both of you. Kate McCann, how dangerous is this moment for
0:25:28 > 0:25:33Theresa May - is she any more likely to confront a leadership challenge
0:25:33 > 0:25:36now that she was a few months ago?I think that is the biggest question,
0:25:36 > 0:25:40and the longer this goes on, the longer Theresa May lurches in some
0:25:40 > 0:25:44people's eyes from one crisis to another, actually that becomes more
0:25:44 > 0:25:48likely. At the heart of this is the number of MPs who were willing to
0:25:48 > 0:25:52write to Graham Bailey to ask for a vote of no confidence in her. At the
0:25:52 > 0:25:57end of last week there was talk that that number was around 40 and the
0:25:57 > 0:26:01Magic number is 48.I believe a couple of other letters went in at
0:26:01 > 0:26:05the weekend.At the question really is, even if that vote happens, are
0:26:05 > 0:26:07there enough MPs in the House of Commons who would vote against
0:26:07 > 0:26:10Theresa May as the Prime Minister? And actually I don't believe that's
0:26:10 > 0:26:15the case. I think what is going on here is that MPs want to send a
0:26:15 > 0:26:18message to the Prime Minister to say, you really need to grasp this
0:26:18 > 0:26:22issue, and this vote of confidence is a good way of threatening her
0:26:22 > 0:26:26without actually really doing very much.It seems to me that there has
0:26:26 > 0:26:30been a change in terms of the amount of pressure being put on Theresa
0:26:30 > 0:26:35May, because some of the Brexiteers, some of the arch Eurosceptics, are
0:26:35 > 0:26:40becoming increasingly nervous that their vision of Brexit is now not
0:26:40 > 0:26:44going to be delivered - how do you see it?It is exactly like that, it
0:26:44 > 0:26:48is like a game of ping-pong, when she veers slightly too far to the
0:26:48 > 0:26:53Remain side then the Brexiteers get up in arms and say, we need to drag
0:26:53 > 0:26:55her back. And then when she goes too far towards Boris Johnson or Jacobs
0:26:55 > 0:27:03reads Mogg -- or Jacob Rees-Mogg, then you see Anna Soubry as we have
0:27:03 > 0:27:07just seen it on the TV.But that makes it difficult to make a big
0:27:07 > 0:27:10speech following on from Lancaster House and Florence because you're
0:27:10 > 0:27:15damned if you do and damned if you don't?It does and this morning it
0:27:15 > 0:27:18appears that big speech might be off. We were expecting it to happen
0:27:18 > 0:27:24in February and it sounds now like it might be about security issues
0:27:24 > 0:27:27and not about the future of Brexit and the limitation period, which is
0:27:27 > 0:27:32what a lot of Tory MPs wanted to see and feel like a party needs to do in
0:27:32 > 0:27:36order to set out the direction of travel in order to settle those
0:27:36 > 0:27:39Brexiteers on the backbenches who are chomping at the bit to see what
0:27:39 > 0:27:42happens next.It is also rather ominous when you have to send out
0:27:42 > 0:27:47senior people in the party, ministers like Matt Hancock and
0:27:47 > 0:27:50David Lidington, to call for the Tory family to come together?
0:27:50 > 0:27:53Whenever you have to go for something to come together, you know
0:27:53 > 0:27:57it is not together in the first place. This is fundamentally Theresa
0:27:57 > 0:28:01May's problem and it stems back to the election - she doesn't have a
0:28:01 > 0:28:06majority in parliament to force the issue. She can't be radical because
0:28:06 > 0:28:10she has no mandate, so she has to sit in the middle and try and
0:28:10 > 0:28:15balance the two sides, and that's how job.Who should she fear most,
0:28:15 > 0:28:20Kate?I think at the moment the group of Jacob Rees-Mogg is in
0:28:20 > 0:28:23control of the Brexiteers on the backbenches. We have seen from last
0:28:23 > 0:28:28week how much of the agenda he is driving at the moment. Tom is right,
0:28:28 > 0:28:30there have been interventions from Cabinet ministers and, but actually
0:28:30 > 0:28:35there is a sense in the Cabinet that although people are frustrated they
0:28:35 > 0:28:39want to try and keep a lid on this. This week we have seen the bill
0:28:39 > 0:28:42coming back in the Lords and the question is whether Tory
0:28:42 > 0:28:45backbenchers are more concerned about their party or more concerned
0:28:45 > 0:28:49about Brexit. I think for people like Jacob Rees-Mogg Brexit has
0:28:49 > 0:28:52become more important than the future of the Conservative Party,
0:28:52 > 0:28:57and when that becomes the case it is problematic for a Prime Minister who
0:28:57 > 0:29:01is relying on the fact that nobody really is due to see a leadership
0:29:01 > 0:29:03contest because of the confusion it would cause.
0:29:03 > 0:29:09Let's have a listen now to the Conservative backbencher,
0:29:09 > 0:29:11speaking this morning at an event discussing the future
0:29:11 > 0:29:12of the Conservative Party.
0:29:12 > 0:29:15I'm of the view that any sort of change of leadership is not
0:29:15 > 0:29:18helpful at the moment and I don't support that.
0:29:18 > 0:29:21But I do think the window is closing, because politics can be
0:29:21 > 0:29:22quite a brutal game.
0:29:22 > 0:29:24The prime minister talked about things that are brilliant,
0:29:24 > 0:29:26you know, about inter-generational unfairness, we've touched on,
0:29:26 > 0:29:28as we've said, housing and so on.
0:29:28 > 0:29:30But we have to deliver them, you can't just always talk
0:29:30 > 0:29:33about the speech outside number 10 Downing Street, which
0:29:33 > 0:29:38was very, very good.
0:29:38 > 0:29:43Well, that was Johnny Mercer as best do you agree with him that their
0:29:43 > 0:29:47window is closing on Theresa May to get a grip of her leadership?No, I
0:29:47 > 0:29:52don't. Look, it is obvious that the lack of a strong Parliamentary
0:29:52 > 0:29:56majority is making things difficult for the Conservative Party at the
0:29:56 > 0:30:01moment. That is true. But the way to deal with that is not to lurch and
0:30:01 > 0:30:07do something ill thought out. The way to deal with it is to continue
0:30:07 > 0:30:10delivering on what we have been delivering. I was looking at some of
0:30:10 > 0:30:15the economic statistics. Unemployment down, inflation coming
0:30:15 > 0:30:21down, we're actually doing a lot of things. Good So what do you say to
0:30:21 > 0:30:26your colleagues, there are reams of them who have been either briefing
0:30:26 > 0:30:30the newspapers or tweeting out on all sides, saying that she hasn't
0:30:30 > 0:30:33got a grip of the leadership and that she needs to do something about
0:30:33 > 0:30:38it, what do you say to them?
0:30:38 > 0:30:42I say to them what I'm about to say to you, that we work together to
0:30:42 > 0:30:46deliver the things that Johnny was talking about. I accept his point
0:30:46 > 0:30:49that delivery is more important than just saying something but are we
0:30:49 > 0:30:53actually doing those things? Work with the cabinet ministers and
0:30:53 > 0:30:56departments and show the country that we can deliver the changes this
0:30:56 > 0:31:00country needs.Why are so many of your colleagues are not convinced by
0:31:00 > 0:31:04Theresa May's leadership?You would have to ask them.Is there something
0:31:04 > 0:31:09that you are missing or that they are?I think sometimes in politics,
0:31:09 > 0:31:14I've only been an MP for seven months but I've watched politics for
0:31:14 > 0:31:25a long time, MPs will brief on Arran -- will brief on an unobtrusive
0:31:25 > 0:31:29nature the Sunday newspapers. If vast majority of the Conservative
0:31:29 > 0:31:31Party is still behind the Prime Minister. That has not changed
0:31:31 > 0:31:37today.We have both sides here briefing. You have everybody from
0:31:37 > 0:31:44Nicholas Soames, to Johnny Mercer, to Heidi Alexander Jacob Rees-Mogg,
0:31:44 > 0:31:49I could go on and on. They are from across the spectrum, within the Tory
0:31:49 > 0:31:55party. They are not afraid to put their names to the criticisms that
0:31:55 > 0:31:58they have. Robert Halfon has said that she needs to go from being
0:31:58 > 0:32:04eight orders to a lion. Are all wrong?When you are a Conservative
0:32:04 > 0:32:08member of Parliament, you have a duty to talk about where you think
0:32:08 > 0:32:11the party could improve and where you think the government is going.
0:32:11 > 0:32:14If I recall correctly, I do not think any of those people have said
0:32:14 > 0:32:18they are sending Graham Brady a letter or any of that stuff...But
0:32:18 > 0:32:23we don't know.we don't, and that was by Kate was saying there have
0:32:23 > 0:32:28been 40 letters... Nobody knows. I would treat that with a large bit of
0:32:28 > 0:32:33salt. What I can say is that very few colleagues have said that they
0:32:33 > 0:32:37have sent in a letter or even intimated that that is what they are
0:32:37 > 0:32:41going to do. What they seem to be saying is that they have said look,
0:32:41 > 0:32:45the government has laudable aims, let's deliver on those and work
0:32:45 > 0:32:50together as a family to deliver.Do you despair, at the moment? As you
0:32:50 > 0:32:54say, you only came in six or seven months ago?It isn't what I expected
0:32:54 > 0:33:00once I was selected before the election, like many people, I
0:33:00 > 0:33:02suspect like you, felt we would have a lodgement Georgie and that isn't
0:33:02 > 0:33:08the case. It's harder than I would have thought that I worked with is
0:33:08 > 0:33:14an immensely talented people and throughout the party. I look forward
0:33:14 > 0:33:20to doing that every single day.And Grant Shapps...He is a very nice
0:33:20 > 0:33:24guy, he is a neighbour of mine in the constituency.What do you think
0:33:24 > 0:33:28of his suggestion that reason they should set an exit date, that she
0:33:28 > 0:33:34will not fight a general election whatever? Would that help?No, I do
0:33:34 > 0:33:38not think a Prime Minister should ever do that, even if they want to
0:33:38 > 0:33:45set 115 years in the future. I do not think it works. She should do
0:33:45 > 0:33:48what she is currently doing and deliver the change the country
0:33:48 > 0:33:52needs.Should she deliver a big speech in the next few weeks on
0:33:52 > 0:33:56Brexit?What I do think is important is the government sets out more
0:33:56 > 0:33:59clearly what its position is for the trade talks, they will start after
0:33:59 > 0:34:05the transition period.Cat, listening to all of that, and having
0:34:05 > 0:34:11no doubt read The Papers and the numerous tweets about Theresa May's
0:34:11 > 0:34:13leadership, why isn't the Labour Party further ahead in the polls,
0:34:13 > 0:34:18they are still neck and neck?Is an interesting conversation that you
0:34:18 > 0:34:23just add there, it strikes me the problem that Theresa May has is she
0:34:23 > 0:34:26just had a parliamentary majority at the general election but never had a
0:34:26 > 0:34:29mandate within the Conservative Party because there was never a
0:34:29 > 0:34:33leadership election.Why has Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party, why
0:34:33 > 0:34:37aren't they are miles ahead in the polls? I think they are quite
0:34:37 > 0:34:41good... It is neck and neck with the Conservatives... Would you expect
0:34:41 > 0:34:47them to be further ahead?It wasn't long ago that I remember Diane
0:34:47 > 0:34:50Abbott and the programme saying that she had closed the gap with the
0:34:50 > 0:34:53Conservatives within the year, and we did. It was laughed at at the
0:34:53 > 0:34:58time but we have come forward in leaps and bounds but the only poll
0:34:58 > 0:35:02that really matters is a general election.Let's leave it there.
0:35:02 > 0:35:05Labour leader of 70 councils have signed a joint letter criticising
0:35:05 > 0:35:07the actions of the party's ruling body, the National Executive
0:35:07 > 0:35:09Committee, after it intervened in a controversial housing scheme
0:35:09 > 0:35:17in North London.
0:35:19 > 0:35:21On Thursday, the NEC, as it is known, advised Haringey council
0:35:21 > 0:35:23to pause the project, which has split the party
0:35:23 > 0:35:26in the area and is opposed locally by the pro-Corbyn group Momentum.
0:35:26 > 0:35:29The letter published yesterday described the actions of the NEC
0:35:29 > 0:35:31as "dangerous and alarming", and "an affront to the basic
0:35:31 > 0:35:32principles of democracy".
0:35:32 > 0:35:35Well earlier I spoke to the Labour leader of Newcastle Nick Forbes,
0:35:35 > 0:35:37one of the signatories, and asked him what the
0:35:37 > 0:35:39problem is with the NEC intervening in this case.
0:35:39 > 0:35:43My concern is that this would have set, if the NEC decided to
0:35:43 > 0:35:46intervene, it would have set a dangerous precedent, that in all who
0:35:46 > 0:35:51did not like what a labour council did, we have Labour councils having
0:35:51 > 0:35:54to make difficult decisions on the basis of Tory cuts at the moment.
0:35:54 > 0:35:59That would mean that that brokered escalate straight up to the NEC and
0:35:59 > 0:36:03effect take the matter out of local hands. It's entirely appropriate
0:36:03 > 0:36:06that Labour groups are allowed within the confines of the party,
0:36:06 > 0:36:11the rules and the law, to get on and do what is in the best interests of
0:36:11 > 0:36:14their local constituents.Jon Trickett, a leading member of the
0:36:14 > 0:36:18Labour Party and close to the leadership said on the BBC Sunday
0:36:18 > 0:36:24politics yesterday that the row was a storm in a teacup. Is this all an
0:36:24 > 0:36:27overreaction?I think quite a lot of this has become a little out of
0:36:27 > 0:36:34hand. I think anyone at the NEC would recognise, and the letter that
0:36:34 > 0:36:41was signed by more than 120 group leaders was designed to reinforce,
0:36:41 > 0:36:44that local Labour groups are accountable to their local
0:36:44 > 0:36:47communities in the NEC has no business in interfering in the
0:36:47 > 0:36:51running of those Labour groups. It was a helpful reminder, I think, on
0:36:51 > 0:36:55those rules at a time when fevers are running a little high in some
0:36:55 > 0:36:59parts of the country but it is really important that some of the
0:36:59 > 0:37:02North London politics that we see happening do not get played out in
0:37:02 > 0:37:10the rest of the party, and do not become a totem for interference in
0:37:10 > 0:37:14wider Labour group policies. Because ultimately, it's important that
0:37:14 > 0:37:18local Labour groups have the sovereignty to do what is right for
0:37:18 > 0:37:21the locals constituents.Did you ever play your hand when you said in
0:37:21 > 0:37:25the letter that it was dangerous and alarming, and a front to democracy
0:37:25 > 0:37:31and not very comradely?That would have been the situation if the NEC
0:37:31 > 0:37:34decided to instruct Haringey Labour group but they did not decide to do
0:37:34 > 0:37:40that. They voted unanimously to enter a period of mediation and
0:37:40 > 0:37:44Andrew Quinn and myself were asked to lead on that process. There has
0:37:44 > 0:37:47been quite a lot of misreporting of the situation. I do think, this is
0:37:47 > 0:37:52where I agree with Jon Trickett, it has become a storm in a teacup and
0:37:52 > 0:37:56what we need to do is get on and do what is in the interests of our
0:37:56 > 0:38:00communities. When we have a Tory government it will always be more
0:38:00 > 0:38:02difficult and that means Labour councils will be faced with
0:38:02 > 0:38:06difficult and in some cases unpopular things to do. That's what
0:38:06 > 0:38:10we have to do in order to comply with the law. That's what we have to
0:38:10 > 0:38:15do in order to deliver the best possible housing jobs, education and
0:38:15 > 0:38:19so on.You started this interview saying that it set a dangerous
0:38:19 > 0:38:23precedent, that Labour councils have to take unpopular decisions and it
0:38:23 > 0:38:26should not open the door to the ruling executive overriding or
0:38:26 > 0:38:31interfering with politics. If you feel so strongly about it that you
0:38:31 > 0:38:35wrote a letter stating that, why are you now saying that yes, you also
0:38:35 > 0:38:39agreed it was a storm in a teacup and the development is being paused
0:38:39 > 0:38:45and everything is OK. Which is it? It is a helpful reminder to members
0:38:45 > 0:38:49of the committee about the executive of Labour groups and it's an
0:38:49 > 0:38:52important reminder of how these things can quickly get out of hand
0:38:52 > 0:38:58if we are not careful. Therefore, it is really important that we all
0:38:58 > 0:39:02remember that we are one party and working together, working to achieve
0:39:02 > 0:39:06good things in difficult circumstances and the Labour local
0:39:06 > 0:39:11government, I speak on behalf of them from around the country, they
0:39:11 > 0:39:14are very concerned that any kind of decision that they face at a local
0:39:14 > 0:39:18level which is perceived as unpopular may be escalated right at
0:39:18 > 0:39:22the top of the party very quickly. It is no way to run the party and
0:39:22 > 0:39:28will log jam the NEC with all sorts of local issues.
0:39:28 > 0:39:32That was Nick Forbes in Newcastle. Cap Smith, in the letter that he and
0:39:32 > 0:39:4169 other leaders wrote, that the ruling executive has no right to
0:39:41 > 0:39:46legitimise the actions of locally elected representatives, do you
0:39:46 > 0:39:51agree?They wouldn't have the power to override a decision made by local
0:39:51 > 0:39:55councillors, that's my understanding of the situation. I do not live in
0:39:55 > 0:39:59Haringey, I'm a Lancashire lass but my understanding is that they were
0:39:59 > 0:40:02Haringey councillors who asked the NEC and ask for support on the
0:40:02 > 0:40:07matter. There was discussion being had within the Labour group and the
0:40:07 > 0:40:11NEC obviously took the boat that it took that it instructed the council
0:40:11 > 0:40:16to do that...
0:40:17 > 0:40:20to do that...It's said to the council in Haringey that it should
0:40:20 > 0:40:24pause developing plans and that they had to go through a mediation
0:40:24 > 0:40:29process. I say to you again, has the NEC, the ruling executive,
0:40:29 > 0:40:33overstepped the mark an affront to democracy, said Nick Forbes and
0:40:33 > 0:40:36others, by interfering in local politics in this way.He also said
0:40:36 > 0:40:41it was turning into a storm in a teacup and I would be inclined to
0:40:41 > 0:40:46agree with him...You've not answer the question, should they interfere
0:40:46 > 0:40:51in any local issue or decision. As he said, it sets a dangerous and
0:40:51 > 0:40:55alarming precedent and they want assurances that such circumstances
0:40:55 > 0:40:59will not arise again.I think the NEC is entitled to express an
0:40:59 > 0:41:03opinion if it should wish to. I would not like it to be a habit in
0:41:03 > 0:41:07doing that but this local development will be made by
0:41:07 > 0:41:13councillors in Haringey.But the number of people who have signed
0:41:13 > 0:41:19this letter, it is the vast majority, if not pretty much all, of
0:41:19 > 0:41:23Labour's council leaders. I hope with the shadows a coterie of State
0:41:23 > 0:41:29for local government, that the NEC and group counsel leaders can get
0:41:29 > 0:41:33together -- Secretary of State for local government.I think he wants
0:41:33 > 0:41:38to put this behind...He did not say that he wants to put it behind him,
0:41:38 > 0:41:43he said it was a useful reminder that the ruling executive in the
0:41:43 > 0:41:47Labour Party should not impose itself on decisions made by local
0:41:47 > 0:41:53councils. Do you think local Labour councils should be able to determine
0:41:53 > 0:41:57their own policies?Absolutely, I do not think the NEC were imposing
0:41:57 > 0:42:03it...They did, they asked for a pause... It has, they have called
0:42:03 > 0:42:07for a pause in the mediation process as if they do not bring about a
0:42:07 > 0:42:13resolution. Would you not see that as interference?You can call for
0:42:13 > 0:42:15anything. There are many organisations that call for a
0:42:15 > 0:42:18government to do things. The government really does them. They
0:42:18 > 0:42:22could call for Haringey to post the development but that is a decision
0:42:22 > 0:42:27for Haringey Council.So council should ignore what the NEC does or
0:42:27 > 0:42:31advisers? Let's say they were to start interfering and involving
0:42:31 > 0:42:35themselves in local decisions up and down the country, would you support
0:42:35 > 0:42:39that?The council can ignore what the NEC has said, of course they
0:42:39 > 0:42:44can. But I don't think it is helpful too. It is always helpful if you can
0:42:44 > 0:42:48have a conversation. Clearly there are two schools of opinion here...
0:42:48 > 0:42:55Which do you believe in? We are talking about a principle here.I do
0:42:55 > 0:43:00not seek to have an opinion on this. I will busy myself with representing
0:43:00 > 0:43:06the constituents I have in Fleetwood and Lancaster...But if they were to
0:43:06 > 0:43:10interfere with a decision in your area or a neighbouring area, would
0:43:10 > 0:43:14you support that?Is important to have a conversation, I hope we can
0:43:14 > 0:43:20come out of that with one. Some members of the Labour grip on
0:43:20 > 0:43:23Haringey have an opinion, some leaders sending in this letter as
0:43:23 > 0:43:26well but I hope that we can come out of this having had a healthy
0:43:26 > 0:43:30discussion.In future would you like Nick Forbes and other signatories to
0:43:30 > 0:43:35the letter, would you like the NEC to step back from this sort of level
0:43:35 > 0:43:40of involvement in local councils?I do not think the NEC has previously
0:43:40 > 0:43:44made a habit of commenting on decisions by local councils, I'm not
0:43:44 > 0:43:49familiar with it, if they have. I think the NEC should really be there
0:43:49 > 0:43:52to manage the Labour Party, we are a growing party with an increasing
0:43:52 > 0:43:56membership and there's a lot of work to be done to ensure that we are
0:43:56 > 0:44:01ready to fight the next general election.And yesterday, when the
0:44:01 > 0:44:04Labour leader was asked about capitalism and its benefits, let's
0:44:04 > 0:44:10listen to what he had to say... Capitalism is a system that has
0:44:10 > 0:44:16evolved, it is a system that is there and can provide regulatory
0:44:16 > 0:44:21control.It is there but does it have anything right?It invests
0:44:21 > 0:44:26mainly for its own benefit but of course they get challenged. Isn't
0:44:26 > 0:44:31that what social movement is about and trade unions are about? Isn't
0:44:31 > 0:44:36that what our democracy is about. Jeremy Corbyn there.Do you have
0:44:36 > 0:44:40anything nice to say on capitalism or has it only benefited themselves
0:44:40 > 0:44:45or those at the top?I've lived by 32 years so far under capitalism and
0:44:45 > 0:44:52it hasn't all been bad! As a student of politics come I never studied
0:44:52 > 0:44:55academically, that was the kind of question being thrown at Jeremy
0:44:55 > 0:45:02there. But it is clear that capitalism, if not controlled, it
0:45:02 > 0:45:05can create a widening gap between rich and poor and that is obviously
0:45:05 > 0:45:09unhelpful.In terms of what it has done for society, is it a good thing
0:45:09 > 0:45:15or a bad thing in your mind?I would say neither, it is what it is.What
0:45:15 > 0:45:20does that mean?It is a system I've lived under, and my parents
0:45:20 > 0:45:25generation have. There's that unhealthy relationship, as Jeremy
0:45:25 > 0:45:29was saying in that interview, between how civil society, trade
0:45:29 > 0:45:32unions and people can challenge it but that's not to say that I'm
0:45:32 > 0:45:37particularly
0:45:37 > 0:45:42wedded to those terms in general. You get on based on your abilities
0:45:42 > 0:45:47rather than the finance that you are born into. That is the sort of side
0:45:47 > 0:45:52of capitalism...You cannot do that under capitalism?It is increasingly
0:45:52 > 0:45:55difficult to. Social mobility has grown to a halt in this country and
0:45:55 > 0:45:59that is a concern.Has capitalism failed in this generation, this
0:45:59 > 0:46:03decade?
0:46:03 > 0:46:09No, it hasn't failed. Across the world more and more people are being
0:46:09 > 0:46:13brought out of poverty.Are they being brought just a little bit out
0:46:13 > 0:46:16of poverty, may be a few inches above the bottom line, as Jeremy
0:46:16 > 0:46:21Corbyn said?No. My parents come from Nigeria and if you go to a
0:46:21 > 0:46:24country like Nigeria today, it is much better off than it was 30 years
0:46:24 > 0:46:30ago, and I think a lot of that is because of the capitalist system. At
0:46:30 > 0:46:32the broader point is, is it working as well now for everybody in this
0:46:32 > 0:46:37country as it has always? And I think that's part of what we need to
0:46:37 > 0:46:40do as a government, which is dealing with the problems around housing,
0:46:40 > 0:46:43which the government has talked about a lot, education and social
0:46:43 > 0:46:47mobility and other issues, to make sure that for this next generation,
0:46:47 > 0:46:52the generation of which we are part, we can make sure that the system we
0:46:52 > 0:46:58have works for everybody, and every part of our society.
0:46:58 > 0:47:00On Friday, David Davis visited Teesport, one
0:47:00 > 0:47:03of the UK's busiest ports.
0:47:03 > 0:47:05He was there to talk about the UK government's
0:47:05 > 0:47:07plan for the transition, or implementation period, after
0:47:07 > 0:47:08Brexit, as we've been discussing.
0:47:08 > 0:47:11And while he was the there he was asked to support a local
0:47:11 > 0:47:13campaign for the port to be designated as something called
0:47:13 > 0:47:15a "free port" once we leave the EU.
0:47:15 > 0:47:17Here's the Conservative mayor of Tees Valley,
0:47:17 > 0:47:18Ben Houchen, with his soapbox.
0:47:35 > 0:47:38There's grit, and there's a real optimism in my area.
0:47:38 > 0:47:41Teesside powered the first industrial
0:47:41 > 0:47:43revolution, and it has aspirations to do it again.
0:47:43 > 0:47:46We created and we export of the very best, including
0:47:46 > 0:47:48the fabrication of the Sydney Harbour Bridge, and in places like
0:47:48 > 0:47:50Middlesbrough and Hartlepool, we want to embrace the opportunities
0:47:50 > 0:47:53of the future to make sure that we can
0:47:53 > 0:47:55make the most of them.
0:47:55 > 0:47:58So I've written to the Chancellor with
0:47:58 > 0:48:01support of more than 50 major businesses to call on the government
0:48:01 > 0:48:04to pilot a free port in Teesside, and that has the support of
0:48:04 > 0:48:06businesses like Hitachi Rail, Sirius Minerals, Liberty Steel and
0:48:06 > 0:48:08Quorn Foods.
0:48:08 > 0:48:16I'm calling on the powers that be to support this plan.
0:48:33 > 0:48:36Free ports are inside of the geographical boundary of the
0:48:36 > 0:48:38country, but they are considered outside the country for customs
0:48:38 > 0:48:39purposes.
0:48:39 > 0:48:41That means for a car manufacturer, they could import
0:48:41 > 0:48:42products, assemble and manufacture them,
0:48:42 > 0:48:44and then export them without
0:48:44 > 0:48:48having to go through customs.
0:48:48 > 0:48:50Today, the EU customs union and the EU
0:48:50 > 0:48:53state aid laws make this almost impossible.
0:48:53 > 0:48:55Brexit means Britain can capitalise on free port
0:48:55 > 0:48:56opportunities.
0:48:56 > 0:48:57That means jobs, investments and domestic
0:48:57 > 0:48:59manufacturing.
0:48:59 > 0:49:01It would enable great maritime centres like Teesport to
0:49:01 > 0:49:08flourish again.
0:49:08 > 0:49:10I represent almost 700,000 people in the Tees Valley
0:49:10 > 0:49:13and there are areas here that voted leave
0:49:13 > 0:49:17almost as much as anywhere in the country.
0:49:17 > 0:49:20This is an area that felt left behind by the Blair and
0:49:20 > 0:49:23Brown years, and it felt left behind by the economic boom of London and
0:49:23 > 0:49:24the south-east.
0:49:24 > 0:49:26It's time we rebalance the economy in
0:49:26 > 0:49:34their favour.
0:49:40 > 0:49:44And Ben Houchen is here in the studio. You say the EU makes it
0:49:44 > 0:49:48impossible for us to have three ports, but there are several free
0:49:48 > 0:49:52ports, or free zones, as they are referred to, dotted around the EU.
0:49:52 > 0:49:56So what is stopping the government from doing the same and setting up
0:49:56 > 0:49:59free zones?What we are trying to get is something much more
0:49:59 > 0:50:05fundamental. Free ports in the European Union I believe our free
0:50:05 > 0:50:10zones in name only. You've got three different programmes, you've got the
0:50:10 > 0:50:12inward processing relief, Alco processing relief and customs
0:50:12 > 0:50:18warehouse relief. So it is just a glorified customs warehouse.But the
0:50:18 > 0:50:22government could go ahead and pursue free zones, whether you think they
0:50:22 > 0:50:26are in name only, they could do it? There have been these pseudo- free
0:50:26 > 0:50:30zones in the UK but a lot of the decided in 2012 because we decided
0:50:30 > 0:50:34not to renew the licenses on the basis that they were too complex.So
0:50:34 > 0:50:39it is the government's decision - what would be the real benefit to
0:50:39 > 0:50:43people in these areas?A proper Freeport is not the Freeport status
0:50:43 > 0:50:47that you can get in the European Union. It is about tax relief and
0:50:47 > 0:50:51tax incentives for things like research and development, things
0:50:51 > 0:50:54like process manufacturing, so we can get proper manufacturing jobs
0:50:54 > 0:50:58back to the UK, rather than a pseudo- customs warehouse.We said
0:50:58 > 0:51:02David Davis visited Devoy on Friday and he said he was open-minded about
0:51:02 > 0:51:07the idea but he fell short of backing it - why do you think
0:51:07 > 0:51:10they're not supporting your plan?I don't think they're not supporting
0:51:10 > 0:51:15it us look we have been speaking about a draft deal for the Tees
0:51:15 > 0:51:20Valley and in that is a pilot for a Freeport at Teesport.We have been
0:51:20 > 0:51:24negotiating, and ultimately because it requires money, or at least some
0:51:24 > 0:51:27tax relief in that geographical area, it has to go to the Treasury.
0:51:27 > 0:51:33And also there is the political dimension, if the EU doesn't want
0:51:33 > 0:51:38the UK to have free zones now, or free ports, why would they want us
0:51:38 > 0:51:43to have them in any trade relationship when we leave?The
0:51:43 > 0:51:46reason I am here today is that we need to get ahead of that game. It
0:51:46 > 0:51:51might be that in the trade discussions, we give up that right
0:51:51 > 0:51:55or we align ourselves with EU to such an extent that we can't do
0:51:55 > 0:51:57this, but actually I think we should prepare now because whenever we
0:51:57 > 0:52:02leave, we will be able to activate this on day one.Do you think there
0:52:02 > 0:52:06should be preparations made for options like this, same as the
0:52:06 > 0:52:11infrastructure at ports, for example, depending on what is agreed
0:52:11 > 0:52:15about the customs union - should the government be investing in some of
0:52:15 > 0:52:19these if a structure projects now in preparation?I think we should,
0:52:19 > 0:52:23actually, and not just because of leaving the EU, I just think it's a
0:52:23 > 0:52:26very, very good idea. And we should be doing everything radical and
0:52:26 > 0:52:30innovative to bring the sort of jobs and investment that you've been
0:52:30 > 0:52:33talking about this country.Money has been set aside, of course,
0:52:33 > 0:52:37planning for Brexit, have you spoken to the Chancellor about some of that
0:52:37 > 0:52:41money being used in this way?The campaign has only just been
0:52:41 > 0:52:44launched, we've been working behind-the-scenes for many months
0:52:44 > 0:52:48and we have now got 50 major businesses, UK and international,
0:52:48 > 0:52:51supporting the campaign, and there is now a meeting to be set up in the
0:52:51 > 0:52:56near future with the Treasury to talk about that second devolution
0:52:56 > 0:53:00deal, which has Freeport status within it.On jobs, you cited 86,000
0:53:00 > 0:53:03- where did you get the figure from? There are those who are campaigning
0:53:03 > 0:53:07for the UK to stay within the customs union and single market who
0:53:07 > 0:53:12cast doubt on that figure?We are working on the position that we
0:53:12 > 0:53:14leave the single market and the customs union, because you cannot do
0:53:14 > 0:53:24this otherwise just the figure of 86,000 comes from the report...That
0:53:24 > 0:53:31is a Tory MP?That is a total across the board so in Teesport it would
0:53:31 > 0:53:36not be that number but it would be many thousands of jobs.Are you
0:53:36 > 0:53:41convinced, Cat Smith, by the idea, the local Labour MP for Redcar
0:53:41 > 0:53:45supports the free port model?What is interesting is that this is one
0:53:45 > 0:53:48of the outcomes of devolution. If you allow local people to start
0:53:48 > 0:53:52coming up with ideas for their own area, I find that very exciting. I
0:53:52 > 0:53:56would like to see more powers given to local communities to make
0:53:56 > 0:54:00decisions, it is something I would like to see in my area as well. Just
0:54:00 > 0:54:04the idea that actually we do have the answers outside of London, and
0:54:04 > 0:54:09we should be given that opportunity. But if Jeremy Corbyn, as he is,
0:54:09 > 0:54:13suggests that Labour could form a customs union with the European
0:54:13 > 0:54:17Union, would there be a need for free ports?I think that is
0:54:17 > 0:54:20something which would be thrashed out in the negotiations. In terms of
0:54:20 > 0:54:26what we get out of Brexit in the end, I would like to see a fairer,
0:54:26 > 0:54:30more equal country, where wealth is shared outside of the 25 as well as
0:54:30 > 0:54:34inside.Isn't there a problem with competition, isn't that one of the
0:54:34 > 0:54:37reasons that you haven't yet had political support in any major way,
0:54:37 > 0:54:42does actually we would have competing areas, free ports across
0:54:42 > 0:54:48the country?I think Teesport has a unique opportunity. We have got the
0:54:48 > 0:54:51development corporation, the first male role developing corporation
0:54:51 > 0:54:56outside of London. It was launched in August and we got more than £100
0:54:56 > 0:55:01million from the Chancellor in the budget. It is actually government
0:55:01 > 0:55:03policy now to support that development corporation around
0:55:03 > 0:55:08Teesport.And what about funding? We have had discussions about farming
0:55:08 > 0:55:11subsidies, and the government would give a certain amount of money that
0:55:11 > 0:55:14would be lost from some of the European Union funds - should it be
0:55:14 > 0:55:18in the same here, Ben Houchen wants the government to guarantee the
0:55:18 > 0:55:23replacement of funds to the team Valley after Brexit - should it?I
0:55:23 > 0:55:28don't know, it is very complex. We will see where the chips fall down.
0:55:28 > 0:55:31What I think is important is that we make sure we invest property in
0:55:31 > 0:55:35areas like the Tees Valley. I don't know about the exact numbers but I
0:55:35 > 0:55:40do think that what Ben Houchen has been saying is very powerful.
0:55:40 > 0:55:44MPs including my two guests of the day will this week
0:55:44 > 0:55:46have the chance to vote on whether they should
0:55:46 > 0:55:48move out of Parliament, after warnings that the building
0:55:48 > 0:55:50is at risk of a serious fire if restoration works
0:55:50 > 0:55:51are not carried out.
0:55:51 > 0:55:53Here's Elizabeth Glinka with as a reminder about
0:55:53 > 0:55:54where they might end up.
0:56:04 > 0:56:08We all know how stressful moving can be, but when it involves 650 MPs,
0:56:08 > 0:56:10800 peers and thousands of support staff, it's even more complicated.
0:56:10 > 0:56:12Keeping everybody happy - well, that's nigh-on impossible,
0:56:12 > 0:56:17but let's take a look at some of the options.
0:56:17 > 0:56:19First up sort of not really moving at all, well,
0:56:19 > 0:56:21just into another room in the same house.
0:56:21 > 0:56:23In this case one of the oldest parts of the palace,
0:56:23 > 0:56:25the 900-year-old Westminster Hall.
0:56:25 > 0:56:28Less upheaval, certainly, but period properties can be
0:56:28 > 0:56:33a drain on resources.
0:56:33 > 0:56:35Or if you fancy something a little more modern and open-plan,
0:56:35 > 0:56:39then how about Portcullis House?
0:56:39 > 0:56:41It's the big black building opposite Big Ben.
0:56:41 > 0:56:44Completed in 2001, it houses the offices of around 200 MPs,
0:56:44 > 0:56:47and has a nice big atrium, which might fit the bill.
0:56:47 > 0:56:51Then there's the moving in with friends option.
0:56:51 > 0:56:54There are suggestions that the Commons could sleep
0:56:54 > 0:56:57on the sofa at the Department of Health, while the Lords might be
0:56:57 > 0:57:02able to borrow the spare room at the Queen Elizabeth
0:57:02 > 0:57:03Conference Centre.
0:57:03 > 0:57:06Some of the more imaginative options, including this design
0:57:06 > 0:57:09for a temporary floating parliament, by the architects Gensler,
0:57:09 > 0:57:14have already been ruled out.
0:57:14 > 0:57:16But there are still many calls, including from the SNP,
0:57:16 > 0:57:19for Parliament to relocate to another part of the country.
0:57:19 > 0:57:20Suggestions include Glasgow, Birmingham Manchester.
0:57:20 > 0:57:28Decisions, decisions.
0:57:35 > 0:57:39Cat Smith, what would you go for, the floating parliament or moving
0:57:39 > 0:57:42out permanently or what?We need to remember that the Houses of
0:57:42 > 0:57:46Parliament is a UNESCO World Heritage Site, it is a popular
0:57:46 > 0:57:49tourist attraction and right now it's falling apart, and it would be
0:57:49 > 0:57:52irresponsible to delay this any longer. We need to go for the most
0:57:52 > 0:57:56value for money option edit that is going to be moving out of
0:57:56 > 0:58:01Parliament, relocating, and letting the work people move in and restore
0:58:01 > 0:58:03the Houses of Parliament to the glory that they once had.That's
0:58:03 > 0:58:07what you're going to vote for this week - what about you, you've only
0:58:07 > 0:58:11just arrived, and you're going to be voting to kick yourself out?
0:58:11 > 0:58:14Actually I've got an open mind on this, I will be sitting in the
0:58:14 > 0:58:17debate and listening to the arguments. I can see both sides of
0:58:17 > 0:58:21it. Some of my colleagues don't want to leave because they feel that
0:58:21 > 0:58:24somehow, a future government may prevent us from coming back. There
0:58:24 > 0:58:29are colleagues like Andrea Leadsom, the Secretary of State who has been
0:58:29 > 0:58:34leading this, who are very keen that we go for a full decant option but I
0:58:34 > 0:58:38will be listening to the arguments. Because actually, can you delay any
0:58:38 > 0:58:41decision any more?No, I think we do need to get on with it.Thank you
0:58:41 > 0:58:46Paris Match!
0:58:46 > 0:58:47-- thank you very much.
0:58:47 > 0:58:48That's all for today.
0:58:48 > 0:58:49Thanks to our guests.
0:58:49 > 0:58:52The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.
0:58:52 > 0:58:55I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big political stories
0:58:55 > 0:58:56of the day.
0:58:56 > 0:58:57Do join me then.
0:58:57 > 0:59:00Bye-bye.