0:00:38 > 0:00:43Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:43 > 0:00:45The Prime Minister, speaking on her official trip to China,
0:00:45 > 0:00:49says she will oppose a move to give EU citizens coming to the UK full
0:00:49 > 0:00:51residency rights after we've left the European Union.
0:00:51 > 0:00:53So will she win the latest battle?
0:00:53 > 0:00:56MPs vote to move out of Parliament to allow a multi-billion pound
0:00:56 > 0:00:59refurbishment to take place.
0:00:59 > 0:01:01But it won't happen until at least 2025!
0:01:01 > 0:01:04Will that be too late?
0:01:04 > 0:01:06Should MPs with newborn babies be able to vote
0:01:06 > 0:01:09in Parliamentary debates by proxy?
0:01:09 > 0:01:17We speak to one Labour MP who's just returned from maternity leave.
0:01:17 > 0:01:20And he was the man in charge of making Ukip look good...
0:01:20 > 0:01:22Not always entirely successfully!
0:01:22 > 0:01:24We speak to one of Westminster's most flamboyant characters, Ukip's
0:01:24 > 0:01:32outgoing press man Gawain Towler.
0:01:33 > 0:01:36All that in the next hour and with us for the whole
0:01:36 > 0:01:38of the programme today is the former Polish Foreign
0:01:38 > 0:01:39Minister Radek Sikorski.
0:01:39 > 0:01:42Welcome back to the Daily Politics.
0:01:42 > 0:01:43Hello.
0:01:43 > 0:01:46The former Chancellor, George Osborne, has added his weight
0:01:46 > 0:01:48to calls for Britain to remain inside the European Customs
0:01:48 > 0:01:49Union after Brexit.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52In her Florence speech last year, the Prime Minister made it clear
0:01:52 > 0:01:55that the Government wanted to come out of the customs union in order
0:01:55 > 0:01:59to be able to pursue an independent trade policy.
0:01:59 > 0:02:01But speaking to the Today programme this morning,
0:02:01 > 0:02:02Mr Osborne said it was a risk.
0:02:02 > 0:02:05I do think we now face a series of choices
0:02:05 > 0:02:07about the kind of Brexit we
0:02:07 > 0:02:11want and we have a much clearer idea of the consequences of, for example,
0:02:11 > 0:02:15leaving with no deal with the European Union or leaving the
0:02:15 > 0:02:17customs union.
0:02:17 > 0:02:20These are the choices that the country, but above all,
0:02:20 > 0:02:21Parliament now face.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24And I think we should look very, very
0:02:24 > 0:02:27carefully at the advantages of, for example, leaving the customs union
0:02:27 > 0:02:29and potentially doing a trade deal...
0:02:29 > 0:02:31In the Evening Standard, where you wrote an editorial...
0:02:31 > 0:02:32Let me just finish my point.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35We should look clearly at the costs and benefits
0:02:35 > 0:02:39of, for example, leaving the customs union and doing less trade with
0:02:39 > 0:02:41Europe, versus what we might gain from doing a trade deal with America
0:02:41 > 0:02:48and at the moment, the sums don't stack up for that kind of decision.
0:02:49 > 0:02:53George Osborne there. Do you agree with him?
0:02:53 > 0:02:56Yes, I think is entirely right and he's also vindicated in his warnings
0:02:56 > 0:03:01when he was Chancellor about the long-term economic effects of
0:03:01 > 0:03:07Brexit. It's going to be negative. In what way? Because of the legal
0:03:07 > 0:03:12analysis papers? Ryder because of the government doing Brexit so there
0:03:12 > 0:03:15is Ane Brun or economic effect will this country that will be negative.
0:03:15 > 0:03:19The government has said one of the scenarios that was not included was
0:03:19 > 0:03:23a bespoke deal.It doesn't exist. Not at the moment but you don't
0:03:23 > 0:03:28think it's a possibility from the European Union?Britain has to
0:03:28 > 0:03:31choose from the available models of relationships. Customs union is the
0:03:31 > 0:03:36turkey model, full single market membership is the Norway model, free
0:03:36 > 0:03:40trade agreement is the Canada model and it will be one of these.He says
0:03:40 > 0:03:44the sums don't add up but the international trade secretary Liam
0:03:44 > 0:03:48Fox, who is tasked with scoping out these free trade agreements, says
0:03:48 > 0:03:52over time, although it can't be done immediately, those free trade
0:03:52 > 0:03:57agreements could replace much of any trade that might be lost with the
0:03:57 > 0:04:01EU.His own department said that over 15 years, it will be bad, what
0:04:01 > 0:04:06will happen
0:04:06 > 0:04:09will happen in 50 years is anybody's guess.But these were drafts, as the
0:04:09 > 0:04:11government said, and forecasts have been wrong, as you know, including
0:04:11 > 0:04:14the ones that George Osborne and David Cameron put out any immediate
0:04:14 > 0:04:17aftermath of the referendum that the economy would struggle.But you are
0:04:17 > 0:04:20leaving the largest free trade area in the world so it doesn't quite
0:04:20 > 0:04:25make sense.Do you think the government will change course?I so
0:04:25 > 0:04:29because any relationship short of full membership is worse for this
0:04:29 > 0:04:37country. Membership is a privileged relationship. Britain aspired to
0:04:37 > 0:04:39join, was rejected, applied again, was then admitted and has done
0:04:39 > 0:04:45extremely well. I mean, in the 1970s, Britain was not exactly a
0:04:45 > 0:04:50success story. It is a shame but I think there is still room for some
0:04:50 > 0:04:53damage control. The customs union makes sense not only for economic
0:04:53 > 0:04:57reasons but also because it then limit the number of checks that you
0:04:57 > 0:05:04have to do across the island of Ireland. So both politically and
0:05:04 > 0:05:09economically, I think it is a sensible solution.How are EU
0:05:09 > 0:05:13leaders, you no doubt keep in touch with some of the senior politicians
0:05:13 > 0:05:16across the European Union, how do they view it from their perspective,
0:05:16 > 0:05:21the pace of negotiations and the substance of the British position so
0:05:21 > 0:05:27far?They don't. Brexit is on the continent seen as a nuisance and a
0:05:27 > 0:05:31side issue. Europe has more important issues, like the Eurozone
0:05:31 > 0:05:36providing growth in Europe -- reviving growth. The issue for
0:05:36 > 0:05:43member states on the continent has been delegated to the commission, as
0:05:43 > 0:05:47far as they are concerned. The negotiating mandate has been granted
0:05:47 > 0:05:53to the chief negotiator. So far, Britain is adjusting to that
0:05:53 > 0:05:56negotiating mandate.Although there are noises for the Italians, for
0:05:56 > 0:05:59example, who say there should be flexible deal and we need to get on
0:05:59 > 0:06:06with the trade deal so is it true to say it is a nuisance?It is the EU
0:06:06 > 0:06:08system and successive British governments have fallen prey the
0:06:08 > 0:06:12fact that they go to capitals and everyone is very nice and polite and
0:06:12 > 0:06:17everybody likes Britain and then just these ambassadors in Brussels,
0:06:17 > 0:06:21who take instructions from their national capitals, takes a pricing
0:06:21 > 0:06:25decisions.Do you think the government will take any notice of
0:06:25 > 0:06:28what George Osborne says, bearing in mind he's been a thorn in the side
0:06:28 > 0:06:32of the government, he's been very critical of Theresa May, of course.
0:06:32 > 0:06:37Should we listen to what he had to say?I'm detecting a bit of a wobble
0:06:37 > 0:06:41in the Cabinet. Wasn't it a minister who said not everything can be
0:06:41 > 0:06:47achieved as far as Brexit purists are concerned? So perhaps as the
0:06:47 > 0:06:50politicians are learning what the EU is actually about and what the
0:06:50 > 0:06:54consequences will be, hopefully realism is beginning to prevail.
0:06:54 > 0:06:56Now it's time for our daily quiz.
0:06:56 > 0:06:59Matt Hancock, the new Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Secretary
0:06:59 > 0:07:02is, as you would expect, embracing the digital
0:07:02 > 0:07:05age, so our question for today is, what's he done?
0:07:05 > 0:07:10Has he A, started a podcast, B, created his own app,
0:07:10 > 0:07:16C, become a YouTube star or D, become an Instagram influencer?
0:07:16 > 0:07:22At the end of the show, Radek will give us the correct answer.
0:07:22 > 0:07:25He is up-to-the-minute of these things!
0:07:25 > 0:07:28So, the first battle in the second stage of the Brexit negotiations
0:07:28 > 0:07:31with the EU became clear this week, over the rights of EU
0:07:31 > 0:07:33citizens arriving in the UK during any transition period.
0:07:33 > 0:07:37The remaining 27 EU member states set out their negotiating position
0:07:37 > 0:07:40on Monday, prompting a response from the Prime Minister,
0:07:40 > 0:07:43who is on a trade visit to China.
0:07:43 > 0:07:48The latest immigration figures show that the number of EU migrants
0:07:48 > 0:07:52coming to the UK fell 19% to 230,000 in the 12 months since
0:07:52 > 0:07:55the Brexit referendum.
0:07:55 > 0:07:59And at the same time, there was also a marked increase
0:07:59 > 0:08:04in the number of EU citizens leaving the UK, totalling 123,000.
0:08:04 > 0:08:08The UK will leave the EU in March 2019,
0:08:08 > 0:08:11but there is then expected to be a transition period
0:08:11 > 0:08:12of up to two years.
0:08:12 > 0:08:14As part of the Phase 1 Brexit negotiations,
0:08:14 > 0:08:18which concluded in December, the government agreed that all EU
0:08:18 > 0:08:22nationals who have been in the UK for more than five years will be
0:08:22 > 0:08:24granted settled status, giving them indefinite leave
0:08:24 > 0:08:29to remain with the same access to public services as now.
0:08:29 > 0:08:33On Monday, the EU said it expects existing rules on freedom
0:08:33 > 0:08:36of movement for EU citizens to apply in full until the end
0:08:36 > 0:08:41of the transition phase.
0:08:41 > 0:08:45But speaking during her trade trip to China, Theresa May
0:08:45 > 0:08:49said that she was "clear there is a difference" between those
0:08:49 > 0:08:52people who arrive prior to the UK leaving the EU in March 2019
0:08:52 > 0:08:54and those who arrive after that date.
0:08:54 > 0:08:58The government is due to bring an Immigration Bill before
0:08:58 > 0:09:01Parliament at an unspecified date later this year.
0:09:01 > 0:09:05And they have commissioned the Migration Advisory Committee
0:09:05 > 0:09:08to examine how EU migration affects the labour market, but that is not
0:09:08 > 0:09:12due to report until September.
0:09:12 > 0:09:14Well, earlier, Brexit Secretary David Davis
0:09:14 > 0:09:16was answering questions from MPs.
0:09:16 > 0:09:18Here's a flavour of what happened.
0:09:18 > 0:09:24Can he make it clear if EU citizens
0:09:24 > 0:09:27coming to the UK during the transition period should be
0:09:27 > 0:09:28eligible for settled status?
0:09:28 > 0:09:30The Prime Minister says they will not be eligible.
0:09:30 > 0:09:32Is that a red line or is the government willing to
0:09:32 > 0:09:33compromise on that?
0:09:33 > 0:09:35I thought that nothing was agreed until everything
0:09:35 > 0:09:36was agreed.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38Secretary of State.
0:09:38 > 0:09:40Well, he's right, nothing is agreed until everything
0:09:40 > 0:09:43is agreed but the point, what I would point out to him
0:09:43 > 0:09:46is that in the joint report, which we concluded and got
0:09:46 > 0:09:48agreement on in December, the European Union agreed
0:09:48 > 0:09:53that the transition date, the end date for ongoing permanent residence
0:09:53 > 0:10:01rights, not possibilities, rights will be March 2019.
0:10:05 > 0:10:08Our Europe reporter Adam Fleming joins us now.
0:10:08 > 0:10:12A clear difference between the EU and Britain in terms of what happens
0:10:12 > 0:10:18to EU citizens and their rights during transition.Yeah, so it boils
0:10:18 > 0:10:22down to something quite technical which is what was actually agreed by
0:10:22 > 0:10:26both sides in their joint report that they wrote up that was signed
0:10:26 > 0:10:29by Theresa May and Jean-Claude Juncker at that dramatic week in
0:10:29 > 0:10:35December. The UK points to paragraph eight, I think it is, which says all
0:10:35 > 0:10:39this kicks in, the stuff about citizens rights, settled status,
0:10:39 > 0:10:43applying for that, having to register, that kicks in the day
0:10:43 > 0:10:48after Brexit day, March the 29th, 2019. That was what David Davis was
0:10:48 > 0:10:52referring to and that is what the Brits said, "That is what we signed
0:10:52 > 0:10:57up to". But the EU said if you read paragraph five carefully, everything
0:10:57 > 0:11:04can be adapted and changed and renegotiated if it is required
0:11:04 > 0:11:06during the talks about the transition period. The EU says, yes,
0:11:06 > 0:11:09you signed up to that date at that point but things are different now
0:11:09 > 0:11:12because we are negotiating a transition period and the EU is very
0:11:12 > 0:11:16clear that will be citizens rights stuff does not kick in until the end
0:11:16 > 0:11:23of the transition period, December 31, 2020 and that is the crux of the
0:11:23 > 0:11:26disagreement which will have to be hammered out by both sides in next
0:11:26 > 0:11:30few weeks when they finally sit down and start settling the terms of the
0:11:30 > 0:11:33transition period. The EU is very clear up what they are offering.If
0:11:33 > 0:11:37that is what they are saying, they are not going to move but it is a
0:11:37 > 0:11:40negotiation, as you said so do you think there will have to be, reminds
0:11:40 > 0:11:47over this on both sides?So there there will have to be compromised.
0:11:47 > 0:11:51There's a difference of opinion in Brussels when you ask people about
0:11:51 > 0:11:55this. Some people think that was put in a negotiating directives by
0:11:55 > 0:12:00Michel Barnier at the EU and it's an impossible ask for the UK so it is
0:12:00 > 0:12:04designed to be negotiated away so the UK can claim a win. That is the
0:12:04 > 0:12:08cynical theory about what is going on. Then you get the idealist theory
0:12:08 > 0:12:12which is certainly amongst people like MEPs in the European
0:12:12 > 0:12:19Parliament, which is that free movement is such an part of EU law,
0:12:19 > 0:12:21such a fundamental thing about what the EU is about, and that the
0:12:21 > 0:12:25transition period is about the UK signing up to lock, stock and barrel
0:12:25 > 0:12:28EU law that this is absolutely something that cannot be compromised
0:12:28 > 0:12:32on so the tension between those two ideas will be resolved in the next
0:12:32 > 0:12:37few weeks and remember there is a tension from the UK as well, yes, on
0:12:37 > 0:12:41the one hand, they want to negotiate a transition period that is good for
0:12:41 > 0:12:45them and is politically palatable back home on things like free
0:12:45 > 0:12:49movement. But the longer it takes to actually agree that transition
0:12:49 > 0:12:53period, the less useful it is because businesses want certainty
0:12:53 > 0:12:57about it as soon as possible so there is a tension within the UK
0:12:57 > 0:12:59position as well.Adam, thank you.
0:12:59 > 0:13:03We're joined now by the Conservative MP Daniel Kawczynski.
0:13:03 > 0:13:07Thank you for joining us. If the UK space in the single market and the
0:13:07 > 0:13:10customs union during a transition period, do you accept that we have
0:13:10 > 0:13:14two observe the rules of the club which includes freedom of movement?
0:13:14 > 0:13:18No, not at all and it is absolutely essential that when we pull out of
0:13:18 > 0:13:21the European Union in March next year, the free movement of people
0:13:21 > 0:13:26stops. This was a very important issue for the British people when we
0:13:26 > 0:13:32voted in a referendum. They expected us to take back control of the
0:13:32 > 0:13:34borders and our immigration policy from the moment we leave the
0:13:34 > 0:13:38European Union and that is what has to happen.So we are going for a
0:13:38 > 0:13:42sort of have your cake and eat it which is what we want the benefits
0:13:42 > 0:13:44of staying in a single market and Customs union during the transition
0:13:44 > 0:13:48period but without freedom of movement, which, as you say, many
0:13:48 > 0:13:52people voted on in a referendum? This is part of the negotiating
0:13:52 > 0:13:56process and we don't yet know the final deal but I would say we are a
0:13:56 > 0:13:58very important country, a permanent member of the UN security council
0:13:58 > 0:14:02and we have the right to negotiate hard on behalf of the country. I was
0:14:02 > 0:14:07disappointed what Radek said before when in my view, he was being rather
0:14:07 > 0:14:10disrespectful to the UK in the sense that 95% of the world's growth is
0:14:10 > 0:14:18going to come... 95% of gross is going to come from outside the
0:14:18 > 0:14:21European Union, not the European Union and we have every right to
0:14:21 > 0:14:24negotiate our own trade agreements rather than being hamstrung by these
0:14:24 > 0:14:31people.Britain is being hamstrung by you and colleagues in the EU, do
0:14:31 > 0:14:35you understand why it is so important?I'm very surprised that
0:14:35 > 0:14:38someone who claims to represent the Polish community in this country
0:14:38 > 0:14:42wants to limit its rights and the rights of EU citizens and the Polish
0:14:42 > 0:14:46people are the largest group in this country to continue to live in this
0:14:46 > 0:14:50country. That is a peculiar position to take but it is the outcome of
0:14:50 > 0:14:55Brexit.Right but Britain leaves in March next year. Surely there are
0:14:55 > 0:15:00changes to the relationship that Britain has with the EU, including
0:15:00 > 0:15:05changes to the automatic right to stay or settled status of people?
0:15:05 > 0:15:10There is no automatic right to stay. I'm EU citizen in this country and I
0:15:10 > 0:15:15don't have the right of abode in Britain. It is conditional, it is
0:15:15 > 0:15:18movement of labour. I can stay here if I have a job. If I don't have a
0:15:18 > 0:15:22job and I start claiming benefits, I can be deported from this country
0:15:22 > 0:15:27after three months. If you want to deport EU citizens who are a drain
0:15:27 > 0:15:31on the public exchequer, you can do it. You don't have to leave the
0:15:31 > 0:15:37European Union.What is your response to changes to that during
0:15:37 > 0:15:40the transition period?It looks like the automatic right of abode is
0:15:40 > 0:15:44actually an enhancement of the rights of some immigrants. But look,
0:15:44 > 0:15:50it looks like an attempt to claim victory where there isn't one.
0:15:54 > 0:16:00What do you mean?If you claim EU citizens lose the right of abode....
0:16:00 > 0:16:03If they haven't got the right to have settled status, which EU
0:16:03 > 0:16:07citizens have the right to claim or apply for, will that be a red line
0:16:07 > 0:16:14for the EU?The transition period will hopefully be quite short, two
0:16:14 > 0:16:18years, then a big stumbling block, but there are big -- bigger issues.
0:16:18 > 0:16:23Is it a red line for you, if Michel Barnier says as they've set out in
0:16:23 > 0:16:28the document for the transition that this is a must, that EU citizens
0:16:28 > 0:16:33should have the right to apply for settled status and, during the
0:16:33 > 0:16:38transition period and bring family members, will that be a red lines
0:16:38 > 0:16:44are you?It is a red line squared, and absolutely unacceptable. You are
0:16:44 > 0:16:51playing a populist card. Of course we want to speak -- of course we
0:16:51 > 0:16:54want to celebrate the contributions of the 1 million Polish people
0:16:54 > 0:16:57contributing to the society.But you want to diminish the rights of
0:16:57 > 0:17:01anyone who comes from Poland during the transition period?Those people
0:17:01 > 0:17:05in the UK before the referendum, the Prime Minister has stated they have
0:17:05 > 0:17:12every right to remain.And the ones before March 2019.They came to the
0:17:12 > 0:17:15UK under the premise they thought we were part of the European Union. Of
0:17:15 > 0:17:20course there will be changes as we pull out of the European Union and
0:17:20 > 0:17:24regain sovereignty and control.So people who came here when Britain
0:17:24 > 0:17:28were not a member of a European Union will be able to stay?It was a
0:17:28 > 0:17:33member in 1978 when my family came. Lucky you.In terms of a transitory
0:17:33 > 0:17:38-- transition, it is a transition, and Britain is supposed to be moving
0:17:38 > 0:17:41to full departure from the EU in terms of single market and customs
0:17:41 > 0:17:47union if the government goes through with what it has said, so why can
0:17:47 > 0:17:51the UK not set up its own rules with regard to free mint -- freedom of
0:17:51 > 0:17:54movement?It can, but look at the figures more carefully. You are
0:17:54 > 0:18:02counting foreign students in those net migration figures. I attended
0:18:02 > 0:18:05one of these wonderful universities, and this is your success story but
0:18:05 > 0:18:11you are portraying this as a defeat. On that issue, should they still be
0:18:11 > 0:18:17included in those figures?This is currently being debated within the
0:18:17 > 0:18:21Conservative party.But what do you think? Should shoot and figures be
0:18:21 > 0:18:27included?I think they should, yes. -- student figures.Why? There are
0:18:27 > 0:18:31many people who come here to study who ultimately end up staying after
0:18:31 > 0:18:36their studies finish. Those people need to be taken into consideration.
0:18:36 > 0:18:41We have let the people down so many times with the figures about people
0:18:41 > 0:18:44coming into the UK, and we need to get a grip and demonstrate we have
0:18:44 > 0:18:49control over our borders. As always, Mister Sikorski is trying to have
0:18:49 > 0:18:54his cake and eat it. The UK has handed over £400 billion to the
0:18:54 > 0:18:58European Union since we joined that have been an extremely generous
0:18:58 > 0:19:03country to the European junior -- European Union. We have done all
0:19:03 > 0:19:07sorts of things. We have protected Poland by sending soldiers to
0:19:07 > 0:19:10Poland, and we want a NATO base there and a strong relationship with
0:19:10 > 0:19:14bilateral partners but he still wants to give as a hard time. That
0:19:14 > 0:19:17is not the way to enter a constructive debate about the post
0:19:17 > 0:19:22Brexit world.Is this about punishing Britain? Michel Barnier
0:19:22 > 0:19:27and Jean Claude Juncker say it is not. But it is a decision that
0:19:27 > 0:19:34Britain made, so is very punitive element?I think this fantasy should
0:19:34 > 0:19:41be realised in full, to the extent that the radicals wanted it, so the
0:19:41 > 0:19:47outcome of the experiment is no.We have heard the EU negotiating
0:19:47 > 0:19:51opinion on the transition period. Is there a problem that the Prime
0:19:51 > 0:19:55Minister is reacting to the EU time and again rather than setting out
0:19:55 > 0:19:59her own negotiating position first? I'm very honoured and delighted to
0:19:59 > 0:20:05have joined the European research group which Jacob Rees Mogg chairs,
0:20:05 > 0:20:10and I think that group is really instilling backbone into the entire
0:20:10 > 0:20:13Conservative Parliamentary party and we are pushing for a very clear
0:20:13 > 0:20:17message to be given to us by the government as to what sort of post
0:20:17 > 0:20:21Brexit relationship they want to have. The uncertainty at the moment
0:20:21 > 0:20:26has gone on for too long, and we need to get down to the nub of the
0:20:26 > 0:20:30relationship we want. We have talked about the Canada model which Michel
0:20:30 > 0:20:34Barnier has offered us, a Canada plus model, and that could be one of
0:20:34 > 0:20:39the best solutions for us.You said a vacuum has been created. Do you
0:20:39 > 0:20:42think Theresa May should have set out more clearly what the end state
0:20:42 > 0:20:47should be in terms of the relationship between Britain and the
0:20:47 > 0:20:51EU?The person to blame and all of this is David Cameron who did no
0:20:51 > 0:20:55preparatory work whatsoever in the run-up to the referendum and all of
0:20:55 > 0:21:00that work should have taken place at that time and, unfortunately, Mister
0:21:00 > 0:21:04Cameron decided in his determination to convince people to stay in the
0:21:04 > 0:21:07European Union that no preparatory work was done which is why the Prime
0:21:07 > 0:21:12Minister is having to work that hard.He is the former prime
0:21:12 > 0:21:17ministers. But do you think these negotiations can effectively be
0:21:17 > 0:21:19delivered by Theresa May?Absolutely and we must stand by the Prime
0:21:19 > 0:21:25Minister.Only with support from your group rather than interference?
0:21:25 > 0:21:28The group is only saying what Theresa May outlined in the
0:21:28 > 0:21:34Lancaster house speech and Florent 's speech. We are absolutely lists
0:21:34 > 0:21:39because we are peddling what she outlined very clearly in those two
0:21:39 > 0:21:42speeches.Are you worried about drift and that Britain could still
0:21:42 > 0:21:47end up being a customs union in the EU?Of course I am worried. But I
0:21:47 > 0:21:51have every confidence in this country 's ability to negotiate a
0:21:51 > 0:21:53fair settlement with the European Union and unfortunately there are
0:21:53 > 0:21:58many people, and it seems as if Mister Sikorski is one of them, who
0:21:58 > 0:22:03wants to punish the UK for daring to pull out of this thing which is
0:22:03 > 0:22:09going to be a supranational state. I know that in my lifetime Poland will
0:22:09 > 0:22:14also potentially pull out of the European Union.Let's talk about
0:22:14 > 0:22:18Poland, because do you support the EU measures, the sanctions against
0:22:18 > 0:22:25the governing party in Poland whom the EU have accused of threatening
0:22:25 > 0:22:28to dismantle democracy and threats to the rule of law?It is a tough
0:22:28 > 0:22:34one. We are a club of democratic nations and we freely trying --
0:22:34 > 0:22:37signed up to the treaties which say that the rule of law should prevail
0:22:37 > 0:22:44and it is also a fundamental principle of the European Union that
0:22:44 > 0:22:51institutions in member states should trust one another. If we could not
0:22:51 > 0:22:55trust the courts in another member state, the security of legal
0:22:55 > 0:22:59interchanges between member states become difficult.Do you trust the
0:22:59 > 0:23:05law and Justice party to do the right thing?They have subjugated
0:23:05 > 0:23:07the Constitutional Tribunal. Poland has no effective review of
0:23:07 > 0:23:14legislation any more and politicians have now gained influence over the
0:23:14 > 0:23:19appointment of judges. Whether the EU can usefully affect that from
0:23:19 > 0:23:25outside, I have my doubts. It is a very difficult issue.Let's leave it
0:23:25 > 0:23:26there. Thank you both for coming in.
0:23:26 > 0:23:28And for more reporting and analysis of Brexit,
0:23:28 > 0:23:35check out the BBC News website, that's bbc.co.uk/Brexit.
0:23:35 > 0:23:37Today, the Commons could pass a motion that would allow MPs
0:23:37 > 0:23:41who become parents to nominate a colleague to cast
0:23:41 > 0:23:45their vote for them when they are on parental leave.
0:23:45 > 0:23:47Previously, new mums and dads could only ask
0:23:47 > 0:23:49the whips for a "pair", where an MP from the opposing party
0:23:49 > 0:23:51would also miss a vote.
0:23:51 > 0:23:53One of those MPs supporting the change is Emma Reynolds,
0:23:53 > 0:23:55who has just returned from maternity leave.
0:23:55 > 0:23:56She joins us now from Central Lobby.
0:23:56 > 0:24:03And I'm delighted to say she's also brought along her baby boy, Theo!
0:24:03 > 0:24:07Hello, Emma. I am sure Theo is an avid viewer of the Daily Politics.
0:24:07 > 0:24:13He is, he's one of the only -- it is one of the only things we want.
0:24:13 > 0:24:17Hello, Theo. Well done for bringing him here. Tell us a little bit about
0:24:17 > 0:24:22what would happen and how it would change for parents like you.The
0:24:22 > 0:24:26point of today's debate is that in our chamber we have extended rights
0:24:26 > 0:24:30to mums and dads or shared parental leave and improve maternity rights
0:24:30 > 0:24:35but we have not extended those rights to MPs. At the moment it is a
0:24:35 > 0:24:38gentleman 's agreement between the whips, and they have been generous,
0:24:38 > 0:24:42but what if they stopped being generous and what about dads as well
0:24:42 > 0:24:47as mums? Today is about allowing a new mum or dad to ask a colleague to
0:24:47 > 0:24:52cash their vote as a proxy instead of voting in that time that you take
0:24:52 > 0:24:57maternity leave or parental leave -- cast their vote.How would that
0:24:57 > 0:25:01transform your life in terms of being a mum and an MP? A lot of MPs
0:25:01 > 0:25:05would be deemed to have missed votes while they were on maternity leave
0:25:05 > 0:25:08and constituents might not have known.Many of my colleagues who
0:25:08 > 0:25:12went before me and gave birth while they were MPs have been criticised,
0:25:12 > 0:25:19and so was I, although I managed to get them to remove it from the
0:25:19 > 0:25:23website, because the reason I have a low voting record is because I have
0:25:23 > 0:25:28been maternity leave. Baby Theo was born four days the Prime Minister
0:25:28 > 0:25:32called the snap election.Great timing.Yes, great timing. We were
0:25:32 > 0:25:38hoping it would be late April. The idea is you have a more formal
0:25:38 > 0:25:42system for MPs so MPs who do take maternity leave, or dad to take
0:25:42 > 0:25:46parental leave are able to represent their constituents by voting in
0:25:46 > 0:25:50Parliament through one of their colleagues.So is it going to be
0:25:50 > 0:25:54passed today, do you think?You know the House of Commons and the weird
0:25:54 > 0:25:57and wonderful ways in which it works. Today is just the motion and
0:25:57 > 0:26:01then it has to be put forward formally for consideration, as I
0:26:01 > 0:26:06understand it.It seems a fairly sensible idea and will, in some
0:26:06 > 0:26:11ways, bring Parliament up to the 21st century.Indeed.Are there
0:26:11 > 0:26:15other things that could be done though?Of course, we could start
0:26:15 > 0:26:20having votes at -- stop having votes at 10:30pm at night, although
0:26:20 > 0:26:23Parliament is a lot more friendly than it used to be but it is still
0:26:23 > 0:26:28very long hours and lots of travelling.You are holding on
0:26:28 > 0:26:33valiantly to Theo looks like he is trying to escape. What is it like in
0:26:33 > 0:26:39Poland in Parliament there?We have these issues too, and I think we
0:26:39 > 0:26:43should be as helpful as possible and it does not just concerned members,
0:26:43 > 0:26:48I think for voters we should be helpful in order to include as many
0:26:48 > 0:26:52people as possible so, for example, in Poland we have the possibility of
0:26:52 > 0:26:58voting by post for disabled people, for example.Those are other things,
0:26:58 > 0:27:05and there she is whether baby, and I see he is desperate to have a run
0:27:05 > 0:27:10around in the Central Lobby. -- with her baby. How well attended Will the
0:27:10 > 0:27:13debate be to date?Very well attended. There are lots of people
0:27:13 > 0:27:19who have given birth in office and one of our colleagues is pregnant,
0:27:19 > 0:27:22so I just want to say that if young women are sitting at home and
0:27:22 > 0:27:26thinking about pursuing a career in politics, don't be put off by the
0:27:26 > 0:27:30long hours and lack of a formal system for maternity leave because
0:27:30 > 0:27:33we want as many talented women in politics as possible.Are you going
0:27:33 > 0:27:38to be speaking in this debate?I hope to be. Somebody will be looking
0:27:38 > 0:27:43after Theo.You can't take him into the chamber? Do you think that will
0:27:43 > 0:27:48ever change?I think he would be be fair. He's a bit of a distraction
0:27:48 > 0:27:54now.I think you are doing extremely well.I think we see a future
0:27:54 > 0:27:59member.What makes you say that?He seems to be enjoying the place.I
0:27:59 > 0:28:04wonder what it is on the other side distracting him.A lot of lovely
0:28:04 > 0:28:07people trying to entertain him. We are allowed to take him into the
0:28:07 > 0:28:11voting lobby, so that is progress. And as you say, because the numbers
0:28:11 > 0:28:15have changed, there are more women, but younger women and younger women
0:28:15 > 0:28:20who are still having children.Yes, and also the New Zealand Prime
0:28:20 > 0:28:26Minister who is blazing a trail. A glass ceiling that has only been
0:28:26 > 0:28:31broken by Benazir Bhutto in the 1990s. She will be the second Prime
0:28:31 > 0:28:35Minister to give birth while in office, and I think she will be an
0:28:35 > 0:28:39inspiration to women across the world, hopefully.How these things
0:28:39 > 0:28:44are becoming normalised. Thank you, and thank you to you, Theo.
0:28:44 > 0:28:47With just over a year to go until Brexit, the outlook for EU
0:28:47 > 0:28:49citizens living here in the UK is still somewhat uncertain.
0:28:49 > 0:28:52It's expected those who've been here for more than five years
0:28:52 > 0:28:55will be able to apply for permanent residency, while newcomers will have
0:28:55 > 0:28:57to register under a new scheme.
0:28:57 > 0:29:00But will the UK still be a desirable place to move to once
0:29:00 > 0:29:01we're out of the EU?
0:29:01 > 0:29:03And will those already here, want to stay?
0:29:03 > 0:29:06Emma Vardy's been hearing from Polish ex-pats in Reading.
0:29:08 > 0:29:10Many people from Poland have made Reading their home,
0:29:10 > 0:29:14and with all the Polish shops and businesses that have developed
0:29:14 > 0:29:17here along the Oxford Road, in one sense, the community is well
0:29:17 > 0:29:18established and well catered for.
0:29:18 > 0:29:20But with Brexit around the corner, could a lot
0:29:20 > 0:29:22of this be about to change?
0:29:22 > 0:29:25Let's go and find out.
0:29:28 > 0:29:30Action!
0:29:30 > 0:29:31Action!
0:29:31 > 0:29:33Hi, my name is Greg.
0:29:33 > 0:29:36When I came to England, about ten years ago, I started
0:29:36 > 0:29:39working in the hospitality industry.
0:29:39 > 0:29:42And further on, I just became, like, a supervisor in a Polish shop.
0:29:42 > 0:29:45And when I found out about the Brexit, the value of the pound
0:29:45 > 0:29:46just dropped drastically.
0:29:46 > 0:29:49We had to raise the prices but I don't know what to expect
0:29:49 > 0:29:52in the future, after March 2019.
0:29:53 > 0:29:56The newcomers, they are not going to get those privilege
0:29:56 > 0:30:01that we get when we came here, ten years, 15 years ago.
0:30:01 > 0:30:03One strawberry.
0:30:03 > 0:30:07Polish doughnuts!
0:30:07 > 0:30:09Hello, my name is Anthony and this is my wife Dinutha.
0:30:09 > 0:30:14How are you feeling about Brexit?
0:30:14 > 0:30:17Not very well because every food, every price about the food
0:30:17 > 0:30:20is going slowly up.
0:30:20 > 0:30:23One year ago, you spend 70 quid, now you spend 100, 120,
0:30:23 > 0:30:24exactly the same products.
0:30:24 > 0:30:28Do you think you will stay beyond Brexit?
0:30:28 > 0:30:30No, after the Brexit, I am thinking everything is expensive.
0:30:30 > 0:30:32If I'm not saving the money, how living?
0:30:32 > 0:30:35Where's my holiday?
0:30:35 > 0:30:35Where is my...
0:30:35 > 0:30:37You understand me, yeah?
0:30:37 > 0:30:39Hi, my name is Anjelica.
0:30:39 > 0:30:42I've been living here for ten years.
0:30:42 > 0:30:44I'm a little bit worried.
0:30:44 > 0:30:46We have a mortgage here.
0:30:46 > 0:30:49We have one daughter.
0:30:49 > 0:30:51She feels most English than Polish!
0:30:51 > 0:30:55But we are still waiting, what's happening next.
0:30:55 > 0:30:58I think a lot of people still want to come here.
0:30:58 > 0:31:06But also, a lot of our clients back to Poland.
0:31:07 > 0:31:08Lots of your customers are going back?
0:31:08 > 0:31:09Yeah, yeah.
0:31:09 > 0:31:12In Poland, it's much better than, like, ten years ago.
0:31:12 > 0:31:15The youngest people want back, you know, I think to start again.
0:31:15 > 0:31:20But people like me, I think they stay here.
0:31:20 > 0:31:23Many people we spoke to said they don't think Brexit
0:31:23 > 0:31:26is going to affect their right to stay, but it's the other things,
0:31:26 > 0:31:29like prices or the availability of jobs that could make life
0:31:29 > 0:31:35here less attractive in future.
0:31:36 > 0:31:40Emma Vardy, there. Radek Sikorski, the young woman in the film said
0:31:40 > 0:31:43that many young people are going back to Poland or they are staying
0:31:43 > 0:31:49in Poland and not coming here. Do you welcome that?We have said all
0:31:49 > 0:31:53along as the Polish government, successive ones, that we want our
0:31:53 > 0:31:56people back. The Polish economy is doing extremely well. We have
0:31:56 > 0:32:01shortages of labour and we are glad that people have come here, learned
0:32:01 > 0:32:06English, you know, enjoyed living in this country but yes, we support
0:32:06 > 0:32:11Polish people returning home.How damaging was it when new member
0:32:11 > 0:32:15states, you know, the borders were opened up and workers were welcomed
0:32:15 > 0:32:22here, they came in large numbers? How damaging was the brain drain to
0:32:22 > 0:32:25Poland's prospects?It was an act of friendship by the Tony Blair
0:32:25 > 0:32:29government but what happened was that Britain alone in the entire
0:32:29 > 0:32:32European Union opened its labour market unconditionally which meant
0:32:32 > 0:32:36that everybody and his brother in Central Europe who wanted to try
0:32:36 > 0:32:40their luck abroad came to Britain. That is why you got the wave of over
0:32:40 > 0:32:451 million people. If you had exercised your seven-year derogation
0:32:45 > 0:32:50period, that way, you would have spread it...Do you think Britain
0:32:50 > 0:32:54should have done that?It was good for us, and good for the British
0:32:54 > 0:32:58economy, we refurbished London for you.Although many people that was
0:32:58 > 0:33:03part of the reason people voted Leave in the referendum.In smaller
0:33:03 > 0:33:08towns, the cultural change might have been unsettling for people.But
0:33:08 > 0:33:13my question was, how bad was the brain drain for Poland, the people
0:33:13 > 0:33:16leaving?We were doing well at that time and now the economy is doing
0:33:16 > 0:33:20even better. Wages are higher now in Norway or Germany which are now open
0:33:20 > 0:33:26to Polish labour so it was useful at the time.Do you accept that some
0:33:26 > 0:33:31Polish citizens who may be thinking about what to do post Brexit are
0:33:31 > 0:33:35actually making those decisions not because of the referendum vote but
0:33:35 > 0:33:40because the prospects are looking brighter elsewhere?It is that but
0:33:40 > 0:33:44also, remember, some people were coming here not just for the money
0:33:44 > 0:33:47but for the open-minded atmosphere, the friendliness, for learning
0:33:47 > 0:33:53English and some of that friendliness seems to be less
0:33:53 > 0:33:58because they are beginning to feel less welcome.Right, but is that a
0:33:58 > 0:34:02perception because of the vote to leave? Is there as much a driver
0:34:02 > 0:34:06behind the decisions being made by communities like the Polish
0:34:06 > 0:34:09community in Britain that actually it is time to go back to Poland and
0:34:09 > 0:34:12although you say it wasn't always about economic reasons, that would
0:34:12 > 0:34:18be a big motivation to going home? Yes, the figures reflect it. I think
0:34:18 > 0:34:27Britain has benefited from the wave and I hope we will benefit from the
0:34:28 > 0:34:31wave back now.What was the impact on Poland when people left? You say
0:34:31 > 0:34:33there was high unemployment but what was the impact on the country?The
0:34:33 > 0:34:35remittance payments from Polish people living in the European Union
0:34:35 > 0:34:39and working were comparable to the EU transfer payments so about 1
0:34:39 > 0:34:44billion euros per month, quite a tidy sum.What do you say to people
0:34:44 > 0:34:48like Boris Johnson who towards the end of last year unilaterally said
0:34:48 > 0:34:52that the rights of EU citizens, including Polish citizens, will be
0:34:52 > 0:34:57guaranteed whatever afterwards?I doubt that it will be a big issue
0:34:57 > 0:35:02because we have a couple of million British people on the continent. We
0:35:02 > 0:35:05are both civilised communities. We will treat one another in a
0:35:05 > 0:35:10civilised way and on the principle of reciprocity.All right.
0:35:10 > 0:35:12In the second historic Leave vote of the last two years,
0:35:12 > 0:35:15MPs yesterday made the decision to move out of parliament
0:35:15 > 0:35:17to make way for extensive repairs to be carried out.
0:35:17 > 0:35:19The renovation work is part of a multi-billion-pound
0:35:19 > 0:35:22modernisation project, but won't see MPs move out
0:35:22 > 0:35:25until at least 2025.
0:35:25 > 0:35:29But not everyone is convinced the move is necessary.
0:35:29 > 0:35:31Mr Speaker, this debate arguably should have taken
0:35:31 > 0:35:33place about 40 years ago.
0:35:33 > 0:35:36The likelihood of a major failure grows the longer the systems
0:35:36 > 0:35:40are left unaddressed.
0:35:40 > 0:35:43We hear the armageddon scenario, that we are either going to be
0:35:43 > 0:35:45washed away in slurry, burned to death or electrocuted
0:35:45 > 0:35:46or something else.
0:35:46 > 0:35:49And yet we have thousands of visitors from the public
0:35:49 > 0:35:51in this place every day.
0:35:51 > 0:35:55I see no signs to say, "Welcome to the death trap".
0:35:55 > 0:35:58We are not only asking ourselves and our staff but also thousands
0:35:58 > 0:36:03of visitors to come to a building which is not safe.
0:36:03 > 0:36:08It might be an exaggeration to say that Parliament is a death trap
0:36:08 > 0:36:11but it is not a wild exaggeration.
0:36:11 > 0:36:16Do we really want to take this enormous political decision that
0:36:16 > 0:36:20at this very difficult time for our nation, we should move,
0:36:20 > 0:36:24lock, stock and barrel, from the iconic centre
0:36:24 > 0:36:25of the nation?
0:36:25 > 0:36:28This is the place where democracy lives.
0:36:28 > 0:36:32It is so easy to say we could move elsewhere and it would still be
0:36:32 > 0:36:36a parliament but it wouldn't be the Palace of Westminster.
0:36:36 > 0:36:40If you look at many of the major houses over the last 100 years that
0:36:40 > 0:36:42have fallen into disrepair, it is nearly always because there
0:36:42 > 0:36:43has been a massive fire.
0:36:43 > 0:36:46I think we should take a lesson from that,
0:36:46 > 0:36:51which is that we have to be very, very cautious in this building.
0:36:51 > 0:36:55And I wouldn't want to be a member who had voted against taking direct
0:36:55 > 0:36:59and clear action now when that fire comes.
0:36:59 > 0:37:05I truly wouldn't.
0:37:05 > 0:37:09That was Chris Bryant there, and he joins us here. He backed the
0:37:09 > 0:37:11amendment.
0:37:11 > 0:37:14He also sat on a joint committee tasked with investigating
0:37:14 > 0:37:15the various options for repairing the Palace of Westminster.
0:37:15 > 0:37:18And the Conservative MP John Hayes, who doesn't think parliamentarians
0:37:18 > 0:37:21should be vacating the building.
0:37:21 > 0:37:25Why not, John Hayes, when you just heard Damian green, your colleagues
0:37:25 > 0:37:30saying a death trap is not a wild exaggeration?It is so
0:37:30 > 0:37:36self-indulgent, isn't it?Is it?We are saying we're going to build an
0:37:36 > 0:37:38alternative edifice stones to from where we were, a replica chamber at
0:37:38 > 0:37:41a cost of billions and our constituents will say to us, and I
0:37:41 > 0:37:46think they would say to themselves in that situation, put up with the
0:37:46 > 0:37:49inconvenience, be with a mess, get on with the work, do it but for
0:37:49 > 0:37:53heaven sake don't ask us to find an alternative in the meanwhile.You
0:37:53 > 0:37:55are being self-indulgent, Chris Bryant, and there's a big issue on
0:37:55 > 0:38:01the cost the taxpayer in Times of austerity, is it really necessary?
0:38:01 > 0:38:04It is necessary, it's a UNESCO listed building, one of the most
0:38:04 > 0:38:08iconic buildings in the world. Most other countries would look at us and
0:38:08 > 0:38:12say, "You're going to let it fall into the Thames? That's
0:38:12 > 0:38:16disgraceful!" To be fair, it's not falling into the Thames but when
0:38:16 > 0:38:19politicians in the early 19th century didn't take seriously the
0:38:19 > 0:38:23concerns about fire and so on, we had a massive fire in 1834 which
0:38:23 > 0:38:26lost nearly all of the medieval buildings and the truth of the
0:38:26 > 0:38:30matter is now go if you go down to the basement or into the roof, it is
0:38:30 > 0:38:35a death trap. It is a place that every year, the risk gets higher and
0:38:35 > 0:38:39higher. We can't meet all the standards we would impose on every
0:38:39 > 0:38:42other building in the land in terms of health and safety and disabled
0:38:42 > 0:38:46access.How responsible is your position, John Hayes, when you
0:38:46 > 0:38:51listen to that from Chris Bryant and others and all the tales that we
0:38:51 > 0:38:55hear about the sewage works, about the building crumbling on the
0:38:55 > 0:38:58outside? We see the endless scaffolding on the outside. It is
0:38:58 > 0:39:03more responsible to take a position to stay?I don't share the
0:39:03 > 0:39:06preoccupation some of my colleagues have with the sewers but the real
0:39:06 > 0:39:10point is this, that if it is a death trap as Chris describes, why aren't
0:39:10 > 0:39:14we taking a decision that will have an effect urgently? Why don't we get
0:39:14 > 0:39:17on with the what? The way we are talking now, we have to build
0:39:17 > 0:39:23somewhere else and get -- don't move until 2025.There's an element of
0:39:23 > 0:39:26truth to that but one of the big problems if you've got the picture
0:39:26 > 0:39:30there now, I was up in front of the clock face yesterday morning...
0:39:30 > 0:39:35You're brave.It is cold and very difficult work, we've got 20 major
0:39:35 > 0:39:39projects including security projects on the estate already. What I would
0:39:39 > 0:39:42say to those that think we should stay in the building while the work
0:39:42 > 0:39:49is being done, it will be ten times the amount of work that is being
0:39:49 > 0:39:52done now and I know exactly what every MP will do, they will say," I
0:39:52 > 0:39:55can't hear myself think! They can't work while they are here! They can
0:39:55 > 0:39:59only work at night!" That will quadruple the cost if we don't move
0:39:59 > 0:40:03out.If you think it is a death trap, why aren't you moving out
0:40:03 > 0:40:08immediately? If it's not until 2025, it can't be that they dress.We are
0:40:08 > 0:40:11doing all we possibly can now to mitigate the risk but we can't
0:40:11 > 0:40:14install the full sprinter system in the basement or the tactics and we
0:40:14 > 0:40:18can't access the 98 different columns through the building that
0:40:18 > 0:40:22would carry fire very fast through the building. We haven't even
0:40:22 > 0:40:25managed to do what every other royal palace has done since the Windsor
0:40:25 > 0:40:29fire which is compartmentalise the building. We are the only well Paris
0:40:29 > 0:40:33that isn't. Firewood spread through that building so vast, John would
0:40:33 > 0:40:37not be able to run fast enough to get away.I think you underestimate
0:40:37 > 0:40:43my speed! The truth is, Chris is right, the work needs to be done, if
0:40:43 > 0:40:47you go to any historic building, cathedrals, large stately homes, the
0:40:47 > 0:40:51Tower of London...But they are not full of people sitting in
0:40:51 > 0:40:54Parliament.But they are visited by millions of people each year and
0:40:54 > 0:40:57those people, and by the way, we will be looking at the school
0:40:57 > 0:41:02children who visit Parliament, they will be locked up.It sounds like it
0:41:02 > 0:41:05be too dangerous for these people do come and look.The biggest danger,
0:41:05 > 0:41:08the most likely way of losing the building for generations of children
0:41:08 > 0:41:14is if we have a massive fire or other catastrophic failure such as
0:41:14 > 0:41:17related to asbestos.Let's talk about the costs because what about
0:41:17 > 0:41:21the point that if you stay while the work goes on, it will cost more
0:41:21 > 0:41:26because it will take longer?I think the point about that is, the report
0:41:26 > 0:41:29that was brought out by the leader of the house made two things very
0:41:29 > 0:41:32clear and they were affirmed in the cause of our considerations. The
0:41:32 > 0:41:35first is the building is structurally sound, this is the
0:41:35 > 0:41:39point that Chris, with absolute honesty, made himself. The building
0:41:39 > 0:41:42is structurally sound. The second point was that the replacement
0:41:42 > 0:41:46building will did necessitate the demolition, not the adaptation, the
0:41:46 > 0:41:52demolition of Richmond house.Which you hate! You told me you hate it!
0:41:52 > 0:41:57Tell the viewers what it is.It's the Department of Health, just
0:41:57 > 0:42:01across the road.It is an empty building.It is now, the former
0:42:01 > 0:42:05Department of Health.What is wrong with demolishing it?The cost will
0:42:05 > 0:42:10be immense.How much?The argument in the paper is more than £3
0:42:10 > 0:42:14billion.We've got to do that work anyway because there are problems in
0:42:14 > 0:42:19other parts of the parliamentary estate, in Norman Shaw North and
0:42:19 > 0:42:22South for instance, staff had to be given inoculations against hepatitis
0:42:22 > 0:42:28because they suddenly had effluent pouring down on top of them from
0:42:28 > 0:42:33drains that had broken in the roof above. We had somebody's...It all
0:42:33 > 0:42:38sounds like a health hazard to me! We had a car written off because a
0:42:38 > 0:42:45large dog of masonry fell off -- chunk of masonry fell off onto it.
0:42:45 > 0:42:48We have had years and years of packed and meant but we've got to be
0:42:48 > 0:42:51resolute now and we've made the decision in principle yesterday.
0:42:51 > 0:42:56Riazor though there was not a massive difference, about 16 votes.
0:42:56 > 0:43:01In my experience as an MP, if you win by one vote, you win.That is
0:43:01 > 0:43:05also true but in terms of moving out, how will it work?The most
0:43:05 > 0:43:10important thing is we in the Palace of Westminster don't have the
0:43:10 > 0:43:17capability and capacity to manage this massive infrastructure
0:43:21 > 0:43:23this massive infrastructure project. We need to set up, as we did for the
0:43:23 > 0:43:26X, a sponsor body and a delivery authority.The pics?Yes, it was
0:43:26 > 0:43:28delivered on time and on budget, and I know people say it will always
0:43:28 > 0:43:31overrun and all the rest of it but in recent years, we've got better at
0:43:31 > 0:43:34delivering major projects like Crossrail on-time and on budget, I
0:43:34 > 0:43:37think we can do it on time and on budget if we make sure we have
0:43:37 > 0:43:40proper, professional people doing work.The scale of the management of
0:43:40 > 0:43:43running the programme that Chris describes, the demolition of
0:43:43 > 0:43:47Richmond house, the creation of this alternative chamber, the edifice
0:43:47 > 0:43:50that is going to be a stone's throw from the Palace of Westminster, at
0:43:50 > 0:43:55the same time, to restore the whole of the Palace of Westminster, will
0:43:55 > 0:43:59be a mammoth task.But you have said it's got to be done.Yes, but it
0:43:59 > 0:44:02should be done in a way that is manageable and the way you do it
0:44:02 > 0:44:08manageably is bit by bit, part by part.Oh, Tosh! Honestly...But
0:44:08 > 0:44:14hasn't that been going on?It has and look at the building.The thing
0:44:14 > 0:44:17is, we don't have any more space than the workforce needed in the
0:44:17 > 0:44:23building.What about the people that will be made redundant when we move?
0:44:23 > 0:44:26Honestly, you said this yesterday in the chamber and it was misleading
0:44:26 > 0:44:29and wrong, but one of the things we do need to do is because we won't
0:44:29 > 0:44:33have so many Polish builders in the UK, we need to make sure we have
0:44:33 > 0:44:37trained young people in every constituency in the land, proper
0:44:37 > 0:44:39apprenticeship programmes, in the high-tech and engineering skills we
0:44:39 > 0:44:47will need and in the craft trades... Interesting but that is slightly off
0:44:47 > 0:44:51the point. In terms of how Parliament will be run, how will it
0:44:51 > 0:44:55function in this sort of new edifice, the replacement?We'll
0:44:55 > 0:44:58probably have debates and shout at each other and probably do exactly
0:44:58 > 0:45:03the same as we await have. It will be no different. Parliament is in
0:45:03 > 0:45:07the building, it's the debate.If that is the case, why don't you just
0:45:07 > 0:45:12move some else?That is probably what will happen. The truth of the
0:45:12 > 0:45:15matter is that those who want to move out, not Chris, actually, it is
0:45:15 > 0:45:20very honourable about this, but somewhat without, we heard from the
0:45:20 > 0:45:23Scottish Nationalists and others yesterday, some of them want to move
0:45:23 > 0:45:27out.And they lost.But the key point is this and this is the
0:45:27 > 0:45:30difference between us which is a pricing because Chris is a aesthete
0:45:30 > 0:45:36and it is surprising that this difference should arrive.Was that a
0:45:36 > 0:45:41condiment?Take it for what it is and let John Bennett. -- a
0:45:41 > 0:45:45compliment. Take it for what it is and let John Bennett.Can't separate
0:45:45 > 0:45:50a place from it function, the institution from its reality. It is
0:45:50 > 0:45:53not pompous, it is what people who come to the house, who want to come
0:45:53 > 0:45:57to the house, in my constituency yesterday, feel when they get there.
0:45:57 > 0:46:03I said yesterday we tread in the footsteps of giants. We do and our
0:46:03 > 0:46:10responsibility is for all those to come and all those who came before.
0:46:10 > 0:46:14Radek, what would you do? Would you have forced a decision through on
0:46:14 > 0:46:21moving out?You are lucky to have such a beautiful and attractive and
0:46:21 > 0:46:24popular house of parliament.Which is falling down, it seems.The whole
0:46:24 > 0:46:29world comes to see it that these are always decisions that inspired
0:46:29 > 0:46:36tabloid fury because people feel that democracy should be cheap.It's
0:46:36 > 0:46:42not cheap, it's £3.9 billion, which is very expensive.But the building
0:46:42 > 0:46:48has to be maintained whatever its function. And if you do not pay for
0:46:48 > 0:46:51your democracy you will get lower quality.But do you think they
0:46:51 > 0:46:55should move out while it is done even if they are prepared to pay for
0:46:55 > 0:47:00it?Well, I can pledge if you have a shortage of Polish workers we can
0:47:00 > 0:47:04rally round and send your brigade. One of the things that upsets me is
0:47:04 > 0:47:08when kids come from the Rhondda Valley or other constituents, the
0:47:08 > 0:47:12disabled access in the building is shocking. We passed laws in
0:47:12 > 0:47:15Parliament to tell every other public building in the world you had
0:47:15 > 0:47:18to have full disabled access but we don't have it in Parliament and
0:47:18 > 0:47:21that's one of the things we can put right.Back and be done while we are
0:47:21 > 0:47:27there.It can't. There is a lot of agreement between us.There is and
0:47:27 > 0:47:31because you don't want to move out. The fundamental thing we agree on is
0:47:31 > 0:47:34that the building must be maintained and restored and improved. The issue
0:47:34 > 0:47:40is, do you say to mine and his constituents that we will be so
0:47:40 > 0:47:43self-indulgent we don't put up with it while we are working and I think
0:47:43 > 0:47:48we should.On that I will move you both out of here. At no cost at all.
0:47:48 > 0:47:58I am a remainder. I will be until my dying day.On this, you are leaving.
0:47:58 > 0:48:01We are in the topsy-turvy world we live in at the moment.
0:48:01 > 0:48:04Now, behind every political party is a faithful press officer,
0:48:04 > 0:48:06there to keep things smooth during the good times and the bad.
0:48:06 > 0:48:10Last night, UKIP's long-serving press spokesperson Gawain Towler
0:48:10 > 0:48:14announced that he was "consciously uncoupling" from the party,
0:48:14 > 0:48:18which he has been with for 13 years.
0:48:18 > 0:48:24During that time, the party has had six different leaders.
0:48:24 > 0:48:26Actually, eight, we think.
0:48:26 > 0:48:29I'll be speaking to him in a moment, but first, let's take a look
0:48:29 > 0:48:30at Gawain in action.
0:48:30 > 0:48:32# And they called it puppy love
0:48:32 > 0:48:40# Oh, I guess they'll never know....#
0:48:40 > 0:48:43The number of people we've had getting in touch, saying, "I'm
0:48:43 > 0:48:44really sorry, I made a mess".
0:48:44 > 0:48:46That they voted for the wrong party?
0:48:46 > 0:48:49That they voted for the wrong party.
0:48:49 > 0:48:51But as I say, them's the breaks, that's
0:48:51 > 0:48:55politics.
0:48:55 > 0:48:59Will you still be leader if you're not an MP?
0:48:59 > 0:49:01Some Ukip leaders have done quite well not
0:49:01 > 0:49:04being in Parliament, haven't they?
0:49:10 > 0:49:14# Tell them all, please tell them it isn't fair
0:49:14 > 0:49:21# To take away my only dream #.
0:49:25 > 0:49:30The glamorous life of the press officer. What was happening?I was
0:49:30 > 0:49:33pulling summary out from the drink. They looked like they were pulling
0:49:33 > 0:49:38you win.He had been scribbling I love Nigel on the beach and then
0:49:38 > 0:49:46realised that there was a problem. The tide was coming in, vast....Why
0:49:46 > 0:49:50are you leaving Ukip after 13 years? I was going to leave after the
0:49:50 > 0:49:54referendum that I felt some level of stability was required with the new
0:49:54 > 0:49:58leader and then the new leader, and then the new leader, and then a new
0:49:58 > 0:50:02leader and then the general election. And in the end I've got
0:50:02 > 0:50:07other things I'd like to do.You are not leaving because the party seems
0:50:07 > 0:50:10to be on the wane?I'm still a member and that is not a problem.
0:50:10 > 0:50:14I'm just leaving from my position. But are you leaving your position
0:50:14 > 0:50:18because you think the party is beyond help now?No, if I was doing
0:50:18 > 0:50:21that, I'd be leaving the party. I'm not leaving the party and I will
0:50:21 > 0:50:26stay a member of the party but I think it is about time I really got
0:50:26 > 0:50:31on with something else. 13 years as a long time, and most of it I've
0:50:31 > 0:50:34forgotten already, fortunately. Highlights?Pulling Sam out of the
0:50:34 > 0:50:41drink. Last week there was an event to raise money for a cancer charity
0:50:41 > 0:50:46because Sam died last year, and he was one of the best of men, from
0:50:46 > 0:50:49carefully, but that was a highlight, but there have been dozens of
0:50:49 > 0:50:55highlights. Fortunately, it being Ukip, I've forgotten them.Nigel
0:50:55 > 0:50:59Farage tweeted that you always loyal and there. Did you give your life to
0:50:59 > 0:51:03the job?Certainly a chunk of it. It's not so much the job. I joined
0:51:03 > 0:51:08because I believed in the cause and I still believe in the cause. And
0:51:08 > 0:51:13the entertainments,
0:51:15 > 0:51:17the entertainments, such as floods, have provided their moment.Some of
0:51:17 > 0:51:24the more challenging moments.Always good to have a porn star as one of
0:51:24 > 0:51:28your candidates.He blamed this on the legalisation of gay marriage and
0:51:28 > 0:51:39God Reeve -- God -- Godfrey Bloom left after his sluts comment. Did
0:51:39 > 0:51:44you put your head in your hands when you heard these things?Often, yes,
0:51:44 > 0:51:48and then I had a drink and I ploughed on.Is that the way you got
0:51:48 > 0:51:55through it?It is the Ukip way. Henry Bolton's girlfriend racist
0:51:55 > 0:51:58messages?This has been another interesting period. Henry is a very
0:51:58 > 0:52:05good man. The situation is as it is. One was not expecting that and I
0:52:05 > 0:52:10don't think he was. That isn't in itself the reason I was going. I
0:52:10 > 0:52:14have been planning to go for awhile, really I have, but it has been
0:52:14 > 0:52:17sticky and sticky and then I have to make a clean break.You simply
0:52:17 > 0:52:23haven't just had enough?This weekend I will have the weekend off.
0:52:23 > 0:52:33That will be the first in 34 weekends. It's been quite forlorn.
0:52:34 > 0:52:41Henry Bolton said he would not quit despite the pressure -- it has been
0:52:41 > 0:52:45quite full on. Do you think you should, now, sitting here?He has
0:52:45 > 0:52:49made his decision and I will not miss the EGM for the world and I
0:52:49 > 0:52:53will be working up until that point and I will be doing that. I am
0:52:53 > 0:52:56considering having a drone and may be doing pay-per-view visit would
0:52:56 > 0:53:07keep you lot out of the meeting itself. But I think the NEC opposed
0:53:07 > 0:53:10him, but remember the NEC and the party, he came from outside an
0:53:10 > 0:53:14appeal to the membership rather than the people like me.And you came
0:53:14 > 0:53:20from the Conservative party originally.Yes, I'm still in
0:53:20 > 0:53:24Glasgow Maryhill and I've been through tough times before.You have
0:53:24 > 0:53:28been on a journey, no doubt about it. But on Henry Bolton, do you not
0:53:28 > 0:53:33think his decision to stay and continue to challenge the NEC's
0:53:33 > 0:53:38decision is, in the end, going to do for the party?Not necessarily and I
0:53:38 > 0:53:44don't think that is the case. I think Henry's strongest suit is the
0:53:44 > 0:53:47cost to the party, not the financial cost as other people suggest. The
0:53:47 > 0:53:52cost to the party is having a leadership election during a period
0:53:52 > 0:53:55where if Ukip is anything it is about prosecuting Brexit and holding
0:53:55 > 0:53:59the government to account. If we spent five months shooting ourselves
0:53:59 > 0:54:02in the foot rather than holding the government and the opposition to
0:54:02 > 0:54:05account at a time when I don't think anybody in the country knows what
0:54:05 > 0:54:08either the government or the opposition stance is on Brexit, we
0:54:08 > 0:54:13at least have a clear message if we go out and give it. We need to spend
0:54:13 > 0:54:19our time having a lover leadership election during that period --
0:54:19 > 0:54:22another leadership election seems to be the strongest alderman.Who has
0:54:22 > 0:54:28been the best Ukip leader? -- strongest argument.What, of the
0:54:28 > 0:54:35ten?Who has been your favourite? Obviously Nigel made the difference.
0:54:35 > 0:54:39It was Nigel's Drive, charisma and sheer work across the country over
0:54:39 > 0:54:45time.And European and Russian money helps, of course.Russia?Through
0:54:45 > 0:54:53sponsorship.Prove it. That is a serious allegation. That is a
0:54:53 > 0:54:56serious allegation.Prove it. It is a serious allegation, Cooper-Woolley
0:54:56 > 0:55:02do need to prove it. Where is your evidence? -- you do need to prove
0:55:02 > 0:55:06it.I read it in the newspaper, so it must be true.Well on that, do
0:55:06 > 0:55:11you think Ukip is making a mark on the European scene?Yes, a huge
0:55:11 > 0:55:18success. A party composed of fruitcakes, in the words of David
0:55:18 > 0:55:25Cameron, it has transferred its ideology to the ruling party and the
0:55:25 > 0:55:28Conservative party has now taken over Ukip's position on English
0:55:28 > 0:55:34nationalism.I would say on the European level, and yes to a certain
0:55:34 > 0:55:40extent, we have been an inspiration behind the Finns party and others
0:55:40 > 0:55:45across Europe where you see a rising tide of Euro scepticism across the
0:55:45 > 0:55:48continent.But today you have resigned from your position. Thank
0:55:48 > 0:55:51you for coming onto the programme.
0:55:51 > 0:55:55There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
0:55:55 > 0:55:58The question was what has culture secretary Matt Hancock done to show
0:55:58 > 0:55:59he's ahead of the digital game.
0:55:59 > 0:56:00Is it:
0:56:00 > 0:56:01a) Started a podcast?
0:56:01 > 0:56:02b) Created his own app?
0:56:02 > 0:56:03c) Become a Youtube star?
0:56:03 > 0:56:05or d) Become an instagram influencer?
0:56:05 > 0:56:07So what's the correct answer?
0:56:07 > 0:56:12You have got to have a guess. Otherwise Gawain will have a guess.
0:56:12 > 0:56:20Answer B.It is. It is an app.
0:56:20 > 0:56:22Well to discuss this exciting political foray
0:56:22 > 0:56:24in to the digital scene, we're joined by a genuine
0:56:24 > 0:56:27digital native, the journalist Marie le Conte.
0:56:27 > 0:56:32What do you think? Is he keeping up to the moment?I do actually think,
0:56:32 > 0:56:38in fairness, that it is quite a good idea because he can speak to his
0:56:38 > 0:56:40constituents, which can be useful and from a party political point of
0:56:40 > 0:56:45view as well the Conservatives have had problems in keeping up with the
0:56:45 > 0:56:48Labour Party in using social media and reaching people. I do think it
0:56:48 > 0:56:54is a good idea. I wouldn't have called it Matt Hancock. It's a weird
0:56:54 > 0:57:00name for an app.What would you have called it?Anything but his name.
0:57:00 > 0:57:04Because the issue is now you can get notifications on your phone saying
0:57:04 > 0:57:08Matt Hancock wants to see your pictures or Matt Hancock has stopped
0:57:08 > 0:57:12working, which is not ideal.Not catchy. There is a problem, the
0:57:12 > 0:57:18privacy flaw.There is. The app can still access your pictures even if
0:57:18 > 0:57:24you have said you do not want it to do that. And also the Department for
0:57:24 > 0:57:27culture, media and sport said it had nothing to do with them so this is
0:57:27 > 0:57:31Matt Hancock as a private citizen effectively having access to your
0:57:31 > 0:57:35pictures.What does that say about 1's confidence in the digital
0:57:35 > 0:57:43minister making that error?It is an area of policy that he is in charge
0:57:43 > 0:57:48of, so not the best thing. But I think he outsourced the making of
0:57:48 > 0:57:53the app to a start-up and he probably should have named it and
0:57:53 > 0:57:57somebody could have noticed that before it came out.Are you going to
0:57:57 > 0:58:03have your own app?No, but I have a million followers on Twitter.Well
0:58:03 > 0:58:07there you go, some self publicity. Do you think it is a good idea for
0:58:07 > 0:58:12politics to do?It is necessary these days.You cannot not do it. In
0:58:12 > 0:58:17terms of having your own app?One step enemy.Who will be the audience
0:58:17 > 0:58:22for Matt Hancock's app?He wanted to be people in the constituency but it
0:58:22 > 0:58:25has been journalist mainly making fun of it. But the journalists will
0:58:25 > 0:58:29get bored eventually and then he might get genuine constituents to
0:58:29 > 0:58:31use it.Thank you very much joining us.
0:58:31 > 0:58:32That's all for today.
0:58:32 > 0:58:38Thanks to our guests.
0:58:38 > 0:58:41The One o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.
0:58:41 > 0:58:43Andrew will be on This Week tonight with Michael Portillo,
0:58:43 > 0:58:45Liz Kendall, John Simpson, Kevin Maguire and Ralf Little
0:58:45 > 0:58:47from 11:45pm.
0:58:47 > 0:58:50And I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big
0:58:50 > 0:58:51political stories of the day.
0:58:51 > 0:58:53Bye bye.