0:00:39 > 0:00:43Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:43 > 0:00:46Theresa May hails £9 billion worth of trade deals as her three-day trip
0:00:46 > 0:00:49to China comes to a close - but has she done enough
0:00:49 > 0:00:52to persuade her fractious party that she has a vision
0:00:52 > 0:00:55for Britain and Brexit?
0:00:55 > 0:00:57Carillion collapsed - now other private firms that deliver
0:00:57 > 0:00:59public services could be in trouble.
0:00:59 > 0:01:04Is the outsourcing model broken?
0:01:04 > 0:01:07Labour councillors quit, saying they've been bullied or intimidated
0:01:07 > 0:01:09by pro-Corbyn activists.
0:01:09 > 0:01:14Is Labour the new nasty party?
0:01:14 > 0:01:17And one of the youngest Tory Leaders chooses the youngest ever prime
0:01:17 > 0:01:21minister as his political hero.
0:01:21 > 0:01:29I first came across him from Margaret Thatcher, can you believe?
0:01:34 > 0:01:37All that in the next hour and with us for the duration,
0:01:37 > 0:01:40two political heroes of mine - Harry Cole of the Sun
0:01:40 > 0:01:42and Zoe Williams of the Guardian.
0:01:42 > 0:01:46Welcome to the programme.
0:01:46 > 0:01:48So, Theresa May is returning to Britain with a fistful of trade
0:01:48 > 0:01:54deals and talking up the UK's prospects outside
0:01:54 > 0:02:01the European Union.
0:02:01 > 0:02:04But her trade tour of China has been overshadowed by noises off
0:02:04 > 0:02:07from her own MPs here in Westminster and demands that she provides more
0:02:07 > 0:02:10clarity on the UK's negotiating position as the second stage
0:02:10 > 0:02:17of Brexit talks begin.
0:02:17 > 0:02:19Just before she boarded a plane in Shanghai she spoke
0:02:19 > 0:02:22to the BBC's political editor, Laura Kuenssberg, who asked her
0:02:22 > 0:02:25whether it was time to fill in the blanks on what she really
0:02:25 > 0:02:26wanted from Brexit.
0:02:26 > 0:02:28We're now starting to negotiate that free trade agreement
0:02:28 > 0:02:29with the European Union.
0:02:29 > 0:02:32We want that to enable trade to take place on as frictionless
0:02:32 > 0:02:34and tariff-free a basis as possible across our borders.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37But, of course, we also want to be signing trade deals around
0:02:37 > 0:02:40the rest of the world, like here in China.
0:02:40 > 0:02:41Prime Minister, there's a fundamental choice,
0:02:41 > 0:02:42though, here, isn't there?
0:02:42 > 0:02:45Your Chancellor has said he believes the changes might be very modest.
0:02:45 > 0:02:48One of your former Brexit ministers, who is on your side,
0:02:48 > 0:02:51has said the Government is yet to make clear choices and you're
0:02:51 > 0:02:53risking ending up with something that looks like meaningless waffle.
0:02:53 > 0:02:55There are big choices here that you haven't yet made,
0:02:55 > 0:02:57or you're not willing to tell us.
0:02:57 > 0:03:00The negotiations with the European Union are in two phases.
0:03:00 > 0:03:01We completed the first phase...
0:03:01 > 0:03:03And we are in the second phase now.
0:03:03 > 0:03:04Time is running out.
0:03:04 > 0:03:06We've just entered the second phase.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09If you look back to what happened in the first phase, many people said
0:03:09 > 0:03:12we wouldn't get a deal, many people said we wouldn't be able
0:03:12 > 0:03:15to come to an agreement with the EU and many people said we wouldn't get
0:03:15 > 0:03:17what we wanted.
0:03:17 > 0:03:20That's been done and now we move on and what people want to know...
0:03:20 > 0:03:21Yes, but this is...
0:03:21 > 0:03:22Laura...
0:03:22 > 0:03:23But the point is...
0:03:23 > 0:03:24It is fundamentally...
0:03:24 > 0:03:27The point is that that deal, which many people said
0:03:27 > 0:03:28would not be done, was done.
0:03:28 > 0:03:29We got what we wanted.
0:03:29 > 0:03:32We ensured that we dealt with those issues in that first phase.
0:03:32 > 0:03:34Now we start the negotiations for the second phase.
0:03:34 > 0:03:37We want that free trade agreement, we negotiate a free trade agreement
0:03:37 > 0:03:39with the European Union.
0:03:39 > 0:03:41We want that to be on as tariff-free and frictionless
0:03:41 > 0:03:42a basis as possible.
0:03:42 > 0:03:44That will be good for jobs in the UK.
0:03:44 > 0:03:48But that also gives us the freedom to be able to negotiate and to sign
0:03:48 > 0:03:50up trade deals around the rest of the world.
0:03:50 > 0:03:53That's good for prosperity and jobs and people in Britain, too.
0:03:53 > 0:03:55Prime Minister, you know very well, though, that the decision time
0:03:55 > 0:03:57is fast approaching.
0:03:57 > 0:03:59Now, our viewers can hear when you are reluctant
0:03:59 > 0:04:03to give any more detail.
0:04:03 > 0:04:06I ask you again, which is more important to you -
0:04:06 > 0:04:08less disruption to the economy or more control for our parliament
0:04:08 > 0:04:12and our politicians?
0:04:12 > 0:04:14Because the EU, many people in business, many
0:04:14 > 0:04:17members of the public, many people in your party believe
0:04:17 > 0:04:20you simply can't have both, and you must now come clean
0:04:20 > 0:04:23on what you really want or it risks you looking
0:04:23 > 0:04:25like you don't know what you want.
0:04:25 > 0:04:27You see, I don't believe that those are alternatives.
0:04:27 > 0:04:31What the British people voted for is for us to take back
0:04:31 > 0:04:33control of our money, our borders and our laws and that's
0:04:33 > 0:04:37exactly what we are going to do.
0:04:37 > 0:04:44And we're joined now by the veteran Conservative Brexiteer Bill Cash.
0:04:44 > 0:04:50Welcome to the programme. Does Theresa May need to set out her
0:04:50 > 0:04:55ambition for Brexit more clearly now?Brexit, she said, means Brexit.
0:04:55 > 0:05:01We've got the Article 50 act through by 499 in the House of Commons.
0:05:01 > 0:05:04We've also got the withdrawal bill through the House of commons by a
0:05:04 > 0:05:10bigger majority on second reading. The negotiations are running
0:05:10 > 0:05:14parallel to this. It is bound to be difficult. There is no question
0:05:14 > 0:05:17about that. The European scrutiny committee is looking into the ins
0:05:17 > 0:05:21and outs of it. In terms of her and the way it is all being conducted,
0:05:21 > 0:05:28the fact is... I said recently we need to have what I call a grown-up
0:05:28 > 0:05:31discussion, knowing that there are serious differences about the
0:05:31 > 0:05:38endgame but, actually, if you look what the EU wants, they want
0:05:38 > 0:05:43political union. There was no way we could stay in that EU.So does
0:05:43 > 0:05:47Theresa May need to set up what she wants more clearly?I would like to
0:05:47 > 0:05:50see more emphasis on what the objectives of the EU are entered as
0:05:50 > 0:05:54a political union, the fact that they run a system of making laws
0:05:54 > 0:05:59which we couldn't possibly live with behind closed doors, the democracy
0:05:59 > 0:06:03that we represent, the terrific opportunities that we have in the
0:06:03 > 0:06:07global market, of which this China deal is an example.Are you
0:06:07 > 0:06:10disappointed that she hasn't said those things?I'm saying at the
0:06:10 > 0:06:14moment we are waiting for her to make a big speech, which I think is
0:06:14 > 0:06:18coming.It is not, actually. She's going to deliver a speech on
0:06:18 > 0:06:22security but not a big speech in the way you have characterisedI think
0:06:22 > 0:06:25the moment is going to come when we need to get that big vision out
0:06:25 > 0:06:28there because I think a lot of people are squabbling amongst one
0:06:28 > 0:06:32another about what they want, where is that the ultimate objectives in
0:06:32 > 0:06:35the national interests are clearly to repeal the 72 act, get the bill
0:06:35 > 0:06:39through the House of Lords with possibly some amendments, and the
0:06:39 > 0:06:42bottom-line is that the really big vision is about stopping our being
0:06:42 > 0:06:49part of a union. We can't reverse, we can't remain. We actually have to
0:06:49 > 0:06:54get into the serious business of having our own lawmaking, our own
0:06:54 > 0:06:57borders, our own money.You said the party are squabbling. Has Theresa
0:06:57 > 0:07:02May got a grip of the Conservative Party?I think there are too many
0:07:02 > 0:07:07people who are running around at the moment giving an impression, which
0:07:07 > 0:07:10are really differences of opinion, we hear it in the tea room and
0:07:10 > 0:07:13elsewhere, but the reality is that actually, when it comes to the
0:07:13 > 0:07:18votes, rather than the arguments, the votes are going through.Use a
0:07:18 > 0:07:22differences of opinion, it is more than differences of opinion. Tempers
0:07:22 > 0:07:30are flying left, right and centre. There is a daily outpouring of Tory
0:07:30 > 0:07:33MPs basically criticising the opposite side when it comes to
0:07:33 > 0:07:37Brexit and not just on Brexit. Even your colleagues Jacob Rees-Mogg is
0:07:37 > 0:07:44basically accusing the civil service of not actually... Or betraying what
0:07:44 > 0:07:47Brexit was all about, even though the Government has tasked the civil
0:07:47 > 0:07:51service with finding out what they should be doing. Is that correct?If
0:07:51 > 0:07:55you look at what has happened over Project Fear, I distinctly remember
0:07:55 > 0:07:59how the information process was begun and it is this... It was
0:07:59 > 0:08:04agreed that it would be a completely impartial process and it was not.
0:08:04 > 0:08:08There is a kind of status quo, institutionalised attitude within
0:08:08 > 0:08:14parts of the civil service and, in a way, you can hardly blame them, for
0:08:14 > 0:08:18this reason. Actually, they have grown up with this. When you heard
0:08:18 > 0:08:22the secretary of the Cabinet saying that the repeal of the 1972 act was
0:08:22 > 0:08:27a dagger in his soul, that is the kind of thing... Lyubov Waite, civil
0:08:27 > 0:08:31servants, if they had a clear steer, would be prosecuting that steered.
0:08:31 > 0:08:36The problem is, nobody will tell them what to do. You seem to have
0:08:36 > 0:08:40missed something. They have got a clear steer.They don't even know if
0:08:40 > 0:08:45you want to stay in the customs union or not.We're not going to be
0:08:45 > 0:08:52a customs union or the single.Don't talk over each
0:08:53 > 0:08:54talk over each other, and let Zoe respondedWhen the council decision
0:08:54 > 0:08:59was announced two or three days ago, the fact is that in that document it
0:08:59 > 0:09:04actually prescribes that we would be in the customs union and in the
0:09:04 > 0:09:08single market, that we would be subject to the court of justice.
0:09:08 > 0:09:10These are the really big questions of the fact is that the Government
0:09:10 > 0:09:14is saying we will not be the customs union or the single market for one
0:09:14 > 0:09:17reason, and that is if you repeal the 1972 act, you change the whole
0:09:17 > 0:09:23nature of the relationship.The problem is, and it is perfectly
0:09:23 > 0:09:26demonstrated here, people are going to project on the Prime Minister
0:09:26 > 0:09:29what they want because there is a vacuum. The problem for the Prime
0:09:29 > 0:09:34Minister is that she's in a Catch-22 situation. Because of her gamble
0:09:34 > 0:09:37last year, she has ended up in a situation where there are 15 people
0:09:37 > 0:09:42on the Remain side of the party, the pro-EU wing, who wonders of Brexit,
0:09:42 > 0:09:47and there are maybe 40 or even 50 on the hard Brexit side who want a
0:09:47 > 0:09:53pure, clean break with Brussels. At this point, she has got upset one of
0:09:53 > 0:09:57those wings. And she is trying to juggle all these plates for so long,
0:09:57 > 0:10:02eventually she has got to break. This makes literally no sense. You
0:10:02 > 0:10:04are both sitting here saying we are completely resolved and leaving the
0:10:04 > 0:10:09single market and the customs union. If that were clear, there wouldn't
0:10:09 > 0:10:14be a vacuum.The vacuum is what replaces it. The decision has been
0:10:14 > 0:10:20made.Let me ask your question. Is Theresa May still the best person in
0:10:20 > 0:10:25your mind to deliver Brexit?I believe so, because actually we've
0:10:25 > 0:10:29got a programme, she is following it through, you got the Lancaster House
0:10:29 > 0:10:33speech. We are the transitional period. There are a number of
0:10:33 > 0:10:38questions... We are in the middle of the associated what that is going to
0:10:38 > 0:10:44mean.Harry has just said, in a political vacuum various wings of
0:10:44 > 0:10:49the party are projecting out to the party what they think Brexit should
0:10:49 > 0:10:53be. Would Brexit be better delivered by somebody who voted to leave the
0:10:53 > 0:10:58EU in the referendum?She has made an even bigger transition in a
0:10:58 > 0:11:02sense, from going for Remain to a situation where she is pursuing a
0:11:02 > 0:11:06policy, getting the bills and we have already gone through.Would
0:11:06 > 0:11:11Brexit be better delivered by her or somebody who voted to leave?My view
0:11:11 > 0:11:14is that she is doing a very good job in making sure that we deliver the
0:11:14 > 0:11:19votes in the House of Commons, and that is what matters. IsSo why the
0:11:19 > 0:11:25squabbling? Why this daily browing? You tell me.I am not a member of
0:11:25 > 0:11:30the Tory body or an MP.I am saying that their arguments are the
0:11:30 > 0:11:35inevitable. Would you be surprised if they weren't going to argue?We
0:11:35 > 0:11:39have talked a bit about the civil service. Brexit colleagues like
0:11:39 > 0:11:42Jacob Rees-Mogg have been denigrating civil servants who work
0:11:42 > 0:11:49for your Government, and then we had the unedifying spectacle of Steve
0:11:49 > 0:11:51Baker, a government minister, accusing civil servants of skewing
0:11:51 > 0:11:54the data to undermine the case for leaving the EU and then having to
0:11:54 > 0:11:58apologise to the House because he got it wrong. Let's have a listen to
0:11:58 > 0:12:01Steve Baker.
0:12:01 > 0:12:06Yesterday, I answer the question based on my honest recollection of a
0:12:06 > 0:12:08conversation. As I explained yesterday, I considered what I
0:12:08 > 0:12:13understood the question being put to me as implausible because of a
0:12:13 > 0:12:16long-standing and well-regarded impartiality of the civil service.
0:12:16 > 0:12:20The audio of that conversation is now available and I am glad the
0:12:20 > 0:12:23record stand corrected. In the context of that audio, I accept that
0:12:23 > 0:12:29I should have corrected or dismissed the premise of my honourable
0:12:29 > 0:12:33friend's question. I have apologised to Mr Charles Grant, an honest and
0:12:33 > 0:12:37trustworthy man. As I have put on record many times, I have the
0:12:37 > 0:12:41highest regard for our hard-working civil servants. I am grateful for
0:12:41 > 0:12:46this early opportunity to correct the record, Mr Depp is bigger, and I
0:12:46 > 0:12:49apologise to the House.Which bit did he get right? You said some of
0:12:49 > 0:12:55it was true.I'm saying that impact when he may be apology, that, as far
0:12:55 > 0:13:00as I'm concerned, draws line under it. It appears from what I saw, and
0:13:00 > 0:13:04I wasn't in the House at the time, but my understanding of it is that
0:13:04 > 0:13:09he was presented with a question which was based on a degree of
0:13:09 > 0:13:12hearsay and I think you misunderstood the nature of the
0:13:12 > 0:13:16question.Do you have any comment to make about the fact that he only
0:13:16 > 0:13:20apologised once the audio was released?I haven't the audio.Is it
0:13:20 > 0:13:25right to deliberately accuse... Sorry, accuse the civil service of
0:13:25 > 0:13:30deliberately drawing up negative assessments of Brexit?During
0:13:30 > 0:13:37Project Fear...You do think it is true so why did he apologise?I'm
0:13:37 > 0:13:40not saying that, I'm talking about the past.In these recent
0:13:40 > 0:13:44assessments that were leaked to... Steve Baker basically said, until
0:13:44 > 0:13:48the audio was actually released which proved to be wrong, he said
0:13:48 > 0:13:51the civil service had deliberately... How can an minister
0:13:51 > 0:13:55get it wrong, accusing his own civil servants of deliberately doing
0:13:55 > 0:13:59something that they didn't do?I think you're putting a bit too much
0:13:59 > 0:14:01emphasis on the word to deliberately. I don't think from
0:14:01 > 0:14:07what I saw that he had done it to liberally. I think there was a
0:14:07 > 0:14:09misunderstanding and I think it's quite right for him to apologise but
0:14:09 > 0:14:14leave it at that.People are now saying openly what they have been
0:14:14 > 0:14:18saying privately since the referendum, the wounds are still raw
0:14:18 > 0:14:21among people like Steve Baker, an arch Brexiteer and a very respected
0:14:21 > 0:14:26person on that side of the debate. They are still fighting the battles
0:14:26 > 0:14:31of the referendum, where they work actually pretty much against the
0:14:31 > 0:14:35entire British establishment who wanted Britain to stay in and that
0:14:35 > 0:14:38haven't healed. Located in the context of this week. The Brexit
0:14:38 > 0:14:43department were blindsided by this leak Monday, and Steve evidently
0:14:43 > 0:14:47didn't know that his own boss and the Prime Minister had commissioned
0:14:47 > 0:14:53this work, so you can start to see that sort of conspiracy appearing.
0:14:53 > 0:14:56It is so maddening. What is so maddening about this is that every
0:14:56 > 0:15:01single time it is like, oh, well, the Remainers are doing this again,
0:15:01 > 0:15:04the civil service Remainers are doing that, exactly what they did in
0:15:04 > 0:15:10the referendum. Weighted.Isn't a legitimate, given there is a track
0:15:10 > 0:15:14record?A won the referendum. And they had a project, they could get
0:15:14 > 0:15:18on and do it. What is derailing them is not having a project and when
0:15:18 > 0:15:23they are derailed by their own lack of budget, they turn round and say,
0:15:23 > 0:15:27the Remainers...Hang on. There is a legitimate claim to be made about
0:15:27 > 0:15:32the civil service?
0:15:34 > 0:15:36the civil service?No, I am simply saying if you look at the pass,
0:15:36 > 0:15:40there is a book written by Michael Charlton for the BBC, that is no
0:15:40 > 0:15:45doubt when you we'd the recorded interviews of people like Conor
0:15:45 > 0:15:51O'Neill and others, you will see they had an attitude of mind. They
0:15:51 > 0:15:54wanted a certain objective.Your college was on the programme a few
0:15:54 > 0:15:58days ago at the end of last week and said that if, in the end, there is
0:15:58 > 0:16:02drift towards a softer Brexit and the Government does contemplate an
0:16:02 > 0:16:06go ahead with remaining in the customs union of some sort, with the
0:16:06 > 0:16:10European Union, that there would be ructions, he said, in the country
0:16:10 > 0:16:13and it would be an existential question for the Tory party. Do you
0:16:13 > 0:16:17agree?I think there are serious questions inherent in the
0:16:17 > 0:16:21distinction, as I would put it, between as I said in the debate on
0:16:21 > 0:16:27this the other day, between being in the custom union and eight custom
0:16:27 > 0:16:35union.What he is saying is...If we were to stay in indefinitely, of
0:16:35 > 0:16:39course there would be a massive row, but that is not what is happening.
0:16:39 > 0:16:43It looks very like the suggestion on the table is really all of these
0:16:43 > 0:16:46unions and then we create something as much like them as possible and
0:16:46 > 0:16:52then we joined those, at gargantuan expense and a huge waste of time.We
0:16:52 > 0:16:53will leave it there.
0:16:53 > 0:16:55Now it's time for our daily quiz.
0:16:55 > 0:16:56The question for today is...
0:16:56 > 0:16:58What nickname have the Chinese given Theresa May?
0:16:58 > 0:16:59Is it...
0:16:59 > 0:17:00A - Mummy May?
0:17:00 > 0:17:01B - Granny May?
0:17:01 > 0:17:02C - Auntie May?
0:17:02 > 0:17:03Or D - Sister May?
0:17:03 > 0:17:08At the end of the show, Zoe and Harry will give
0:17:08 > 0:17:09us the correct answer.
0:17:09 > 0:17:13377 job losses have been announced this morning at the construction
0:17:13 > 0:17:15and outsourcing firm Carillion that went in receivership last mont.
0:17:15 > 0:17:18That firm's failure has been followed by profit warnings
0:17:18 > 0:17:21and share price falls from other companies in the sector.
0:17:21 > 0:17:24So is the outsourcing model that's been encouraged
0:17:24 > 0:17:29by successive governments broken?
0:17:29 > 0:17:31Last month, the construction giant Carillion collapsed,
0:17:31 > 0:17:33after it was unable to secure financial support
0:17:33 > 0:17:34to continue trading.
0:17:34 > 0:17:37On Wednesday, more than £1 billion was wiped off the stock
0:17:37 > 0:17:39market value of Capita, which also handles
0:17:39 > 0:17:47government contracts.
0:17:47 > 0:17:49Other firms - Interserve, Mitie and Serco - have also
0:17:49 > 0:17:52seen their shares slide as investor concerns mount about the state
0:17:52 > 0:17:53of the wider outsourcing sector.
0:17:53 > 0:17:56Labour have called for an end to what they call
0:17:56 > 0:17:57the outsourcing racket.
0:17:57 > 0:17:59Under their plans, the public sector would be the default choice
0:17:59 > 0:18:01for providing government services.
0:18:01 > 0:18:04Jeremy Corbyn has also pledged a wage cap on bosses
0:18:04 > 0:18:07running the firms.
0:18:07 > 0:18:09Companies bidding for public-sector work would have to stop executives
0:18:09 > 0:18:17earning more than 20 times the wage of their lowest paid worker.
0:18:20 > 0:18:22In the Commons yesterday, Labour's Rachel Reeves put down
0:18:22 > 0:18:23an urgent question on Capita.
0:18:23 > 0:18:25Oliver Dowden, Minister for the Cabinet Office, responded.
0:18:25 > 0:18:27The issues that led to the insolvency of Carillion
0:18:27 > 0:18:30will come out in due course but our current assessment
0:18:30 > 0:18:32is that they primarily flowed from difficulties in construction
0:18:32 > 0:18:33contracts, including overseas.
0:18:33 > 0:18:36By contrast, Capita is primarily a services business and 92%
0:18:36 > 0:18:44of Capita's revenues come from within the United Kingdom.
0:18:47 > 0:18:53Now, as members would expect, we regularly monitor the financial
0:18:53 > 0:18:56stability of all our strategic suppliers, including Capita,
0:18:56 > 0:18:59and as I've said, we do not believe any of them are in a comparable
0:18:59 > 0:19:00position to Carillion.
0:19:00 > 0:19:02And joining us now from Derby is the Labour MP Chris Williamson.
0:19:02 > 0:19:05And we're joined here in the studio by the former Conservative
0:19:05 > 0:19:06minister Francis Maude.
0:19:06 > 0:19:10Welcome to both of you. Chris Williamson, Oliver Dowden said the
0:19:10 > 0:19:15Government does not believe Capita is in anyway in a common position to
0:19:15 > 0:19:19Carillion. They are not the same, are they? They would say that,
0:19:19 > 0:19:24wouldn't they? Clearly, there is a concern because Capita has issued a
0:19:24 > 0:19:27profit warning and they are in some difficulties, it seems to me. This
0:19:27 > 0:19:30is the same pattern that was followed by Carillion. I frankly
0:19:30 > 0:19:35think that the outsourcing model is broken. It is one that has been used
0:19:35 > 0:19:41for the past four decades and I think we
0:19:53 > 0:19:56need to move away from it to a system which is more trustworthy and
0:19:56 > 0:19:58better value for money.And that means bringing everything into the
0:19:58 > 0:20:01public sector, then, in your mind? That should be the default position.
0:20:01 > 0:20:03That is the Labour Party's position, as you said in the opening package
0:20:03 > 0:20:05there. I think it is more cost-effective, accountable, and
0:20:05 > 0:20:06transparent. These companies are exempt from the Freedom of
0:20:06 > 0:20:09Information Act provision. So these people are getting away potentially
0:20:09 > 0:20:12with murder, really. And we need to call a halt to it and get better
0:20:12 > 0:20:18value for money for the taxpayer, and better democratic oversight of
0:20:18 > 0:20:21these activities. We can't allow these companies to continue going
0:20:21 > 0:20:26bust and ripping off the public purse.Should more alarm bells be
0:20:26 > 0:20:30ringing? Are you worried about the state of Capita, bearing in mind
0:20:30 > 0:20:34what happened to Carillion? Capita has even more public sector
0:20:34 > 0:20:40contracts than Carillion. It is the system broken?Noel. But it has to
0:20:40 > 0:20:44be managed in a very active and effective way. I don't know what is
0:20:44 > 0:20:49going on in Capita. They are obliged to be open about what is going on.
0:20:49 > 0:20:54They have issued a profit warning and all of flats is there on the
0:20:54 > 0:21:00face of it. But outsourcing is not a panacea for every ill. Chris is a
0:21:00 > 0:21:04hardline ideologues who thinks private sector bad, public sector
0:21:04 > 0:21:08automatically good. I'm not someone who thinks the reverse. I think it
0:21:08 > 0:21:12is horses for courses. But if you do outsource, you need to do it well.
0:21:12 > 0:21:17Right. But it wasn't done well under Carillion, was it? Because the
0:21:17 > 0:21:22Government had the ball literally pulled over its eyes.One of the
0:21:22 > 0:21:24things I discovered when I had responsibility for that area in 2010
0:21:24 > 0:21:28was the way that public procurement was being done almost double the
0:21:28 > 0:21:33Ripley froze out small, newer, more dynamic and innovative suppliers,
0:21:33 > 0:21:39and we change that. There were rules that you have two short three years
0:21:39 > 0:21:42accounts, turnover threshold, things that made it almost impossible for
0:21:42 > 0:21:46smaller businesses to bid for and winning Government business, and so
0:21:46 > 0:21:50the big ones, the Giants, had far too much of it their own way, and
0:21:50 > 0:21:57actually too many of them became that their principal competency was
0:21:57 > 0:22:01not doing the work, it was winning the business. That is not a healthy
0:22:01 > 0:22:06position. We did reform that and one of the things we put in place was
0:22:06 > 0:22:08senior, private-sector crown representatives, we called them, you
0:22:08 > 0:22:14had a part-time role, but whose job it was to be the kind of gatekeeper
0:22:14 > 0:22:18with the big strategic suppliers to Government to ensure this doesn't
0:22:18 > 0:22:24happen.Let me go back to Chris Williamson on the question of
0:22:24 > 0:22:29ideology. Is it, in your mind, Chris Williamson, always the case that
0:22:29 > 0:22:33public is good and Private Bag, that all outsourcing should be stopped
0:22:33 > 0:22:37because you are ideological is so committed to the public sector,
0:22:37 > 0:22:41whether or not one is better than the other?I'm afraid it is a
0:22:41 > 0:22:45neoliberal ideology that has been holding sway over the country for
0:22:45 > 0:22:49probably since 1979. And if you actually talk to most people out in
0:22:49 > 0:22:53the country, they agree with us. Most people don't like the fact that
0:22:53 > 0:22:59the private sector is essentially ripping off the public purse. Let's
0:22:59 > 0:23:03remember that the first priority for these companies is to make a profit.
0:23:03 > 0:23:06And they are making billions and billions of pounds in profit.
0:23:06 > 0:23:09Surely, wouldn't it be better to have these things delivered in-house
0:23:09 > 0:23:16and then the dividends which are dished out to the shareholders would
0:23:16 > 0:23:20not be necessary, and that money could then be reinvested and
0:23:20 > 0:23:27improving the services? These services that we all need.Let me
0:23:27 > 0:23:31put that to Francis. If in the end, the companies are going to go bust
0:23:31 > 0:23:35because of the system you have just described, and they have made
0:23:35 > 0:23:38billions in the process stop
0:23:38 > 0:23:45described, and they have made billions in the process stop.
0:23:45 > 0:23:49billions in the process stop.It must be obvious what the problem is.
0:23:49 > 0:23:52But they did pay themselves money, even when the finances were looking
0:23:52 > 0:23:57precarious and that is what has been revealed.They were not making
0:23:57 > 0:24:00billions and billions of profit. This has to be done right. You have
0:24:00 > 0:24:03to manage the contract in the right way and you have to open it up to
0:24:03 > 0:24:08smaller companies and that is the way to do it. But this idea that
0:24:08 > 0:24:12somehow the public sector, because it doesn't make a profit, is always
0:24:12 > 0:24:16better, there is in the public sector too much aversion to
0:24:16 > 0:24:21innovation. There is a bias to inertia rather than the buyers to
0:24:21 > 0:24:28innovation. You do not get progress. Chris Williamson, what do you say?
0:24:28 > 0:24:32Well, Francis is just burying his head in the sand. And is a stranger
0:24:32 > 0:24:36to reality, it seems to me. Of course, the public sector is
0:24:36 > 0:24:39perfectly capable of innovation, but what he is ignoring is the fact that
0:24:39 > 0:24:43billions of pounds and the public record shows that, having paid out
0:24:43 > 0:24:48in dividends to shareholders. That is a fact. Furthermore, the fat cat
0:24:48 > 0:24:52executives at the top of these organisations are paying themselves
0:24:52 > 0:24:54colossal sums, and really conservatives often wailing the
0:24:54 > 0:25:00level of remuneration for local authority Chief executives, and they
0:25:00 > 0:25:05pale into insignificance against the multi-million pound salary packages
0:25:05 > 0:25:09packages that these objectives in these private outsourcing companies
0:25:09 > 0:25:13are receiving. The chief executive of Capita, for example, the outgoing
0:25:13 > 0:25:16chief executive, I think his remuneration package was just under
0:25:16 > 0:25:20£3 million. These are colossal figures and it is being subsidised
0:25:20 > 0:25:26by the public purse.What evidence have you got that the public sector
0:25:26 > 0:25:32would run all of these services and build all of the constructions that
0:25:32 > 0:25:34having undertaken by private companies in the meantime if there
0:25:34 > 0:25:43hadn't outsourcing?... Well, of course.
0:25:43 > 0:25:48course.The model that existed right to this was exactly that, and we
0:25:48 > 0:25:52seem to manage perfectly well, if not better. Indeed, the economic
0:25:52 > 0:25:55performance of the country... I can hear France's scoffing, but the
0:25:55 > 0:26:01economic performance of the country was at least as good if not better.
0:26:01 > 0:26:04We are just talking about whether or not these buildings would have been
0:26:04 > 0:26:10made if there hadn't been outsourcing.It was this idea that
0:26:10 > 0:26:14everything was fine before there was outsourcing is complete nonsense.
0:26:14 > 0:26:17Governments have struggled with this and as the size of the state has
0:26:17 > 0:26:21grown and the scope of state activity has grown, it is essential
0:26:21 > 0:26:26to find different ways of doing things. Otherwise, you find
0:26:26 > 0:26:29absolutely no innovation.At the beginning of the coalition, there
0:26:29 > 0:26:36was a huge amount of noise around small companies and contracts had to
0:26:36 > 0:26:42be given where companies would bring social value to the community. It
0:26:42 > 0:26:45didn't make any difference. If you look at something like the work
0:26:45 > 0:26:50programme, all of the contracts were taken off social value companies.
0:26:50 > 0:26:56What are the facts, then?I will give you one example. When I took
0:26:56 > 0:27:02over in 2010, 80% of the Government spent was on national suppliers and
0:27:02 > 0:27:07weak in sourced some of that. The previous Labour Government had done
0:27:07 > 0:27:12mass outsourcing. But we also opened up procurement to smaller social
0:27:12 > 0:27:18enterprises, smaller developers and start ups, though actually by 2015,
0:27:18 > 0:27:25you look at the map of suppliers to the Government and there were lots
0:27:25 > 0:27:31literally all over the UK.I wanted you to counterexamples. One of them
0:27:31 > 0:27:34is the work programme. No, they weren't just opened up. They were
0:27:34 > 0:27:41divvied out to seven or eight and this has had a massive impact.The
0:27:41 > 0:27:46problem that the Government has is that people will be making these
0:27:46 > 0:27:51arguments regardless of whether it is going well and working or not.
0:27:51 > 0:27:55The easiest way to talk down a public company is to go on
0:27:55 > 0:28:04television and attack it. The problem was... Chris, for example,
0:28:04 > 0:28:07was making these arguments even in the good times. It is an ideological
0:28:07 > 0:28:10thing for him. But the problem is the Government need to start making
0:28:10 > 0:28:14elegant defences of this, like Francis has, because voters are
0:28:14 > 0:28:22listening to people like Chris.
0:28:22 > 0:28:25listening to people like Chris.If you talk over each other, nobody can
0:28:25 > 0:28:33hear. So I will live on is likely to talk about Theresa May. Can she stay
0:28:33 > 0:28:40on as leader, with all of this going on?Clearly, she can stay on.How
0:28:40 > 0:28:45close is a vote of confidence?I have no idea. You would have to ask
0:28:45 > 0:28:50Graham Brady, and he certainly won't tell you.At the moment, viewing it
0:28:50 > 0:28:54from the outside, as you are, on her leadership, does you need to be
0:28:54 > 0:28:58bolder about what she says on Brexit?Actually, I think she's
0:28:58 > 0:29:01getting a bad rap on the sprigs of thing. This idea that the Government
0:29:01 > 0:29:05hasn't said what it wants. That seems to me to be nonsense. It has
0:29:05 > 0:29:11said what it once. It wants the maximum frictionless trading and
0:29:11 > 0:29:15maximum access to the single market, particularly for financial services,
0:29:15 > 0:29:19and it doesn't want to have to pay for it. Doesn't want to have to
0:29:19 > 0:29:25accept free movement. It does want to have its cake, perfectly
0:29:25 > 0:29:33reasonably.So why the in the party? What is going on is a very public
0:29:33 > 0:29:37negotiation and what is going on in the Conservative Party, completely
0:29:37 > 0:29:41understandably, is a bit of the same thing. People staking positions in
0:29:41 > 0:29:45order to try to influence where this quite corrugated negotiation ends
0:29:45 > 0:29:50up.Has she got a grip of the party in negotiation?I shouldn't think
0:29:50 > 0:29:53anyone could have a grip of the party at the moment because this is
0:29:53 > 0:29:57a very intense time. Whoever was leading the party at the moment
0:29:57 > 0:30:02would have a really difficult time. I did think it is necessarily -- I
0:30:02 > 0:30:06don't think it is necessarily a problem. What the direct will have
0:30:06 > 0:30:12to do is engage very seriously with the EU negotiators and work out what
0:30:12 > 0:30:19are the gives, what is the settling point, and it won't be a linear
0:30:19 > 0:30:22spectrum between hard Brexit and soft Brexit. There are lots of
0:30:22 > 0:30:30different strands, some of them will be met and the settling point...
0:30:30 > 0:30:33Should a Government minister be accusing the civil service of
0:30:33 > 0:30:43obstructing Brexit?I do what was going on here I barely noticed it
0:30:43 > 0:30:45was happening.Should government minister be criticising the civil
0:30:45 > 0:30:50service in the way Steve Baker do in the dispatch box?I frequently got
0:30:50 > 0:30:54called up for criticising the civil service because it is ridiculous to
0:30:54 > 0:30:58have this idea that ministers can never be critical of the civil
0:30:58 > 0:31:03service. Of course they can. I don't know what was going on there. I
0:31:03 > 0:31:07think the point Bill Cashmore is making, that there is in much of the
0:31:07 > 0:31:12political and governmental establishment a deep seated comfort
0:31:12 > 0:31:15with us being in the EU and discomfort with us leaving it, and
0:31:15 > 0:31:20that in the sub conscious and unconscious, possibly makes a
0:31:20 > 0:31:26difference.Do you think Theresa May would be advised to set a departure
0:31:26 > 0:31:31date now, saying she was going to go?That will be totally out of her.
0:31:31 > 0:31:35Of course it is but do you think it would be wise?I think you could
0:31:35 > 0:31:38argue it both ways and it would probably be an inconclusive
0:31:38 > 0:31:43argument.And on that, Francis Maude, thank you.
0:31:43 > 0:31:46Now, this weekend Jeremy Corbyn will be speaking at a conference
0:31:46 > 0:31:47of Labour local councillors.
0:31:47 > 0:31:49But it has been a turbulent few weeks for the party
0:31:49 > 0:31:52in local government, with a battle over the reselection
0:31:52 > 0:31:53between existing councillors and Momentum-backed candidates.
0:31:53 > 0:31:56And that tension came to a head in one local council -
0:31:56 > 0:31:57Haringey - this week.
0:31:57 > 0:32:00On Tuesday, the Labour leader of Haringey Council in North London,
0:32:00 > 0:32:02Claire Kober, announced she will be stepping down in May,
0:32:02 > 0:32:05citing "sexism, bullying" and "undemocratic behaviour"
0:32:05 > 0:32:08in personal attacks on her.
0:32:08 > 0:32:11She had been embroiled in a public row with Momentum members
0:32:11 > 0:32:15in Haringey over a £2 billion deal with a private property developer
0:32:15 > 0:32:20to build 6,500 new homes.
0:32:20 > 0:32:22Labour's National Executive Committee - which is now controlled
0:32:22 > 0:32:25by allies of Jeremy Corbyn - intervened to put a stop
0:32:25 > 0:32:27to the development.
0:32:27 > 0:32:30This decision by the ruling body was met with criticism from several
0:32:30 > 0:32:32Labour council leaders across the country,
0:32:32 > 0:32:35who publicly backed Ms Kober.
0:32:35 > 0:32:38Now the former Labour leader of Harlow Council, Jon Clempner,
0:32:38 > 0:32:40who resigned last month, has blamed his decision to stand
0:32:40 > 0:32:44down on an active campaign against his leadership by a Momentum
0:32:44 > 0:32:48organiser - he also claimed he was "called a neo-Nazi"
0:32:48 > 0:32:52by someone wearing a Corbyn T-shirt outside the Labour Party Conference.
0:32:52 > 0:32:55This is what Haringey Council leader Claire Kober had to say
0:32:55 > 0:32:57about her decision to step down.
0:32:57 > 0:33:02I'm in no doubt that the behaviour and actions of certain individuals
0:33:02 > 0:33:06at certain times meet the test both sexes, bullying and
0:33:06 > 0:33:14intimidatory behaviour.
0:33:16 > 0:33:17-- of both sexism...
0:33:17 > 0:33:21And I have to say, if I look at the NEC's actions last week, this
0:33:21 > 0:33:23is the National Executive Committee of the Labour Party deciding
0:33:23 > 0:33:26to debate an issue without having the courtesy to contact me
0:33:26 > 0:33:28beforehand, during or immediately after the meeting to
0:33:28 > 0:33:34understand better the issue that they wanted to discuss.
0:33:34 > 0:33:41Our political correspondent Iain Watson joins us now.
0:33:41 > 0:33:47What is happening at this moment in Haringey?As you pointed out, I
0:33:47 > 0:33:50think division, deselection is, denunciations have been dominating
0:33:50 > 0:33:53the news in Haringey but what I've been trying to do is move a little
0:33:53 > 0:33:56bit away from that process and look at some of the policies that might
0:33:56 > 0:34:00emerge as the party moves to the left, towards Momentum, getting
0:34:00 > 0:34:09greater influence as expected, after the council elections when a new
0:34:09 > 0:34:18leaders announce. On Sunday, members are talking about the first age of
0:34:18 > 0:34:23the manifesto. It will come as no surprise that one of the things they
0:34:23 > 0:34:28intend to do is scrap that controversial housing scheme you
0:34:28 > 0:34:30mentioned, the public-private partnership to redevelop a housing
0:34:30 > 0:34:33estate, but there are some other interesting ideas which may be taken
0:34:33 > 0:34:39by other councils they move to the left too. They are talking about
0:34:39 > 0:34:42abolishing council tax entirely the lower income families, extending
0:34:42 > 0:34:46free school meals to everyone in primary schools, setting up a
0:34:46 > 0:34:48not-for-profit lettings agency in competition with the private sector
0:34:48 > 0:34:54to offer homes beneath market rent. Also you have that great with Chris
0:34:54 > 0:34:57Williamson and Francis Maude on outsourcing. In line with John
0:34:57 > 0:35:00McDonell's wishes, they would want to take back everything that has
0:35:00 > 0:35:04been outsourced in the borough back into public ownership and they're
0:35:04 > 0:35:11also looking at perhaps a big hike in pay for workers, as well, which
0:35:11 > 0:35:14Salford council has already done. What is interesting is that there
0:35:14 > 0:35:18are no costings attached to these ideas in the moment and what is
0:35:18 > 0:35:22interesting also is that people are portraying Haringey in a particular
0:35:22 > 0:35:25light, I'm picking up from sources that they are averse to hiking the
0:35:25 > 0:35:29council tax by a large amount which would pay the sum of these things
0:35:29 > 0:35:32because of the scrutiny Haringey is under the moment and they think they
0:35:32 > 0:35:37may be effectively tarred with the brush of tax-raising, rather than
0:35:37 > 0:35:39redistribution, so they are sensitive to some of those issues
0:35:39 > 0:35:43there is one caveat when you go through these policies and that is
0:35:43 > 0:35:47that whatever the local grassroots decide, the existing Labour group
0:35:47 > 0:35:51has to sign of that manifesto, that is the one still run by Claire
0:35:51 > 0:35:56Kober, who is standing down, run by a majority who are not Momentum
0:35:56 > 0:35:59backers, and they may simply delete some of the more radical overseas
0:35:59 > 0:36:02that they don't like.Thank you very much.
0:36:02 > 0:36:04We're joined now by a former Labour activist in Haringey,
0:36:04 > 0:36:06Nora Mulready, who has resigned her membership
0:36:06 > 0:36:09of the party after 20 years, and Labour MP and Corbyn ally
0:36:09 > 0:36:12Chris Williamson is still with us in Derby.
0:36:12 > 0:36:16Listening to some of those ideas that Ian was talking about, do they
0:36:16 > 0:36:21sound like good ideas to you?I think that one of the things that
0:36:21 > 0:36:27when you spend time in Haringey you realise is that at some point, not
0:36:27 > 0:36:30Momentum activists are going to come into contact with reality and that
0:36:30 > 0:36:35is going to probably dramatically change what they are suggesting can
0:36:35 > 0:36:39happen. And I mean in terms of money.Why did you resign your
0:36:39 > 0:36:46membership?Er... A lot of different issues. I think within the Labour
0:36:46 > 0:36:51Party now there are two main things going on - one is a battle for the
0:36:51 > 0:36:58kind of political soul of the Labour Party, and for my senses it is
0:36:58 > 0:37:03between the people who are kind of pragmatic left-wing people, like
0:37:03 > 0:37:07Claire Kober and the Labour councillors who are prepared to use
0:37:07 > 0:37:13any tools available to try and poverty while people, and people
0:37:13 > 0:37:20like Chris, for example, who are... Who plays a kind of ideological
0:37:20 > 0:37:23commitment to an antipathy to the private sector and to state delivery
0:37:23 > 0:37:30of everything, above the needs of people. So that's the politics, but
0:37:30 > 0:37:36the other side of it, which, again, Clare talked about, is the sheer
0:37:36 > 0:37:43brutality of the discourse within the Labour Party now, emanating from
0:37:43 > 0:37:49Momentum. The fact is, if you stand up to Momentum in Haringey and...
0:37:49 > 0:37:55I've been contacted by people from all over the country who have
0:37:55 > 0:37:59experienced this, what is thrown at you is abhorrent.Is that
0:37:59 > 0:38:02acceptable, Chris Williamson?That is not my experience and what we
0:38:02 > 0:38:05have is a Labour Party which is a mass movement now. The introduction
0:38:05 > 0:38:09to this item talked about some of the ideas that the members in
0:38:09 > 0:38:13Haringey are looking at and that is a fantastic exercise in democracy
0:38:13 > 0:38:17and we should be celebrating that, the fact that we are bringing people
0:38:17 > 0:38:21into the party to discuss ideas and hopefully move forward in a
0:38:21 > 0:38:25consensus after a debate and discussion has taken place. Surely
0:38:25 > 0:38:29we should be celebrating that. I need to correct you on one thing,
0:38:29 > 0:38:34Jo, because you said the NEC had intervened to stop the HDD from
0:38:34 > 0:38:38going forward it but is not the case. The National Executive
0:38:38 > 0:38:42Committee of the Labour Party debated about the NEC hasn't got the
0:38:42 > 0:38:46power to stop it, they merely asked the Labour group to pause and
0:38:46 > 0:38:54consult on it.I take your... The question I ask you is about the
0:38:54 > 0:38:58response of the brutality of the discourse. Is it acceptable that
0:38:58 > 0:39:01Claire Kober resigned and that Nora Mulready has resigned her membership
0:39:01 > 0:39:06because of claims of bullying and sexism that they have personally
0:39:06 > 0:39:12felt within the party?If they felt that, they need to report it and the
0:39:12 > 0:39:17party will always investigate any issues of concern about those sorts
0:39:17 > 0:39:21of things but, as I say, it is certainly not my experience and the
0:39:21 > 0:39:24party now is a huge organisation. It has more members than every other
0:39:24 > 0:39:31political party put together. It is very much reaching out to the wider
0:39:31 > 0:39:35general public and people are genuinely enthused and it's not
0:39:35 > 0:39:39about being extremists. The Labour Party is the mainstream. What the
0:39:39 > 0:39:42Labour Party is now advocating is what the vast majority of the people
0:39:42 > 0:39:46want in this country. In all of the opinion polls, they agree with us.
0:39:46 > 0:39:49It is not extremism, it is the mainstream.That is correct in terms
0:39:49 > 0:39:53of the swell of the membership, the party is the biggest party and is
0:39:53 > 0:40:03reaching out to the public in
0:40:03 > 0:40:05reaching out to the public in a way not seen before. To you accept what
0:40:05 > 0:40:07Chris Williamson says?No, absolutely not, I'm sorry, Chris. To
0:40:07 > 0:40:09give you some examples, Claire Kober was repeatedly called an ethnic
0:40:09 > 0:40:12cleanser and social cleanser as a result of wanted to regenerate one
0:40:12 > 0:40:14of the most deprived communities in the borough. Not a single person was
0:40:14 > 0:40:21going to be moved off that estate. Every of them was promised the right
0:40:21 > 0:40:26to the rights to have a property as part of the regeneration. Sorry,
0:40:26 > 0:40:30every council tenant had been offered that. But she was routinely
0:40:30 > 0:40:34accused of social cleansing and even ethnic cleansing by members of the
0:40:34 > 0:40:38Labour Party, so in terms of the bullying it is not a case of simply
0:40:38 > 0:40:42coming up to be blinded timidity on them in that sense. The actual
0:40:42 > 0:40:47brutality that language was disgusting and it was never ever
0:40:47 > 0:40:52called out by anyone within the hierarchy.I'm going to come to you,
0:40:52 > 0:40:56Zoe, in a second. Should it be called out, Chris Williamson? Are
0:40:56 > 0:40:59you shocked to hear that sort of allegation levelled within the
0:40:59 > 0:41:04Labour Party?Nora is making those allegations right now and if people
0:41:04 > 0:41:08have got concerns and evidence... But does that concern you, that
0:41:08 > 0:41:12Claire Kober was called a social cleanser and an ethnic cleanser by
0:41:12 > 0:41:16people with the Labour Party? Publicly, they have written
0:41:16 > 0:41:22articles.Let him answer., Chris, what do you say?Obviously, I think
0:41:22 > 0:41:26people need to moderate their language and begin a comradely way
0:41:26 > 0:41:32to people. But this isn't a fringe activity or a handful of extremists
0:41:32 > 0:41:35who are pushing this agenda. The proposition that was being put
0:41:35 > 0:41:43forward by the Labour group on Haringey was opposed by the local
0:41:43 > 0:41:48MPs, it was overwhelmingly rejected by the vast majority of people, as I
0:41:48 > 0:41:51understand it, living in Haringey, and that's why this exercise in
0:41:51 > 0:41:56democracy has taken place in Haringey. It should be celebrated.
0:41:56 > 0:42:00The criticism is about the way the discourse has been handled. Do you
0:42:00 > 0:42:04think there should be an investigation? Your colleague the
0:42:04 > 0:42:08shadow Brexit minister Jenny Chapman said two days ago that there should
0:42:08 > 0:42:11be in inquiry into the allegations that Claire Kober has made in the
0:42:11 > 0:42:17weight she was bullied.Claire Kober needs to make those allegations to
0:42:17 > 0:42:22the...She has, but should there be investigation? Jenny Chapman said
0:42:22 > 0:42:25there should be didThe NEC will have to review that and see if there
0:42:25 > 0:42:29is any merit in further investigation.Is that a yes or a
0:42:29 > 0:42:33note in your support for an inquiry? I've not seen the evidence, all I've
0:42:33 > 0:42:42said as he is it.This is the problem...Saying look at the
0:42:42 > 0:42:47evidence and allow the people who are charged with allsorts of
0:42:47 > 0:42:49investigations. It is not helpful for people like me to be
0:42:49 > 0:42:54pontificating on the sidelines.Are you on the sidelines? Let me bring
0:42:54 > 0:43:00Zoe in. Rhead I want to play Relate for a second because I think part of
0:43:00 > 0:43:02the problem is that it has been taken as an interparty battle of
0:43:02 > 0:43:08such proportions that one side of the party has to be wrong in order
0:43:08 > 0:43:12for the other to survive.The situation in Haringey, replicated in
0:43:12 > 0:43:16London boroughs across London, is that PF ideals have not delivered
0:43:16 > 0:43:20the things that they promised to residents and residents do feel
0:43:20 > 0:43:25incredibly angry and this idea that councils can't afford to pay care
0:43:25 > 0:43:29workers properly, they can't afford to do this, this is the new reality,
0:43:29 > 0:43:32we're basically dealing with a Conservative austerity programme and
0:43:32 > 0:43:36the argument...But should it have ended with the leader of the council
0:43:36 > 0:43:41resigning?Wait, wait. The people are quite angry and it is not
0:43:41 > 0:43:45Momentum. It is an actual housing group. Of course they're going to be
0:43:45 > 0:43:49angry because there is a huge amount...Isn't this democracy in
0:43:49 > 0:43:58action?It is not even the Labour Party. Half of them are Greens.I
0:43:58 > 0:44:01found Chris Preddie chilling there because he is completely deadpan
0:44:01 > 0:44:07damn the camera. He is hearing the allegations. -- I found Chris pretty
0:44:07 > 0:44:15chilling. He is just saying, reported to the NEC. We all know the
0:44:15 > 0:44:19NEC has just been taken over by and Momentum supporters and they run the
0:44:19 > 0:44:23complaints service. The most dangerous thing for the Labour Party
0:44:23 > 0:44:27is this...Let him finish the sentence.The problem for the Labour
0:44:27 > 0:44:32Party is that Jeremy Corbyn seems this nice, bearded, fluffy guy who
0:44:32 > 0:44:35are sized animals, doesn't eat meat and doesn't drink and it is all very
0:44:35 > 0:44:39nice but on the ground, as soon as his supporters get any sniff of
0:44:39 > 0:44:42power, it ends up with situations like this.I need to let Chris
0:44:42 > 0:44:49Williamson respond. Briefly, we are running out of time.Of course. That
0:44:49 > 0:44:54is a ludicrous proposition, to suggest that the Labour Party is
0:44:54 > 0:44:58being taken over by Momentum. It is an exercise in democracy. People put
0:44:58 > 0:45:02themselves up for election and were overwhelmingly returned by the
0:45:02 > 0:45:06Labour Party membership. Let's celebrate democracy!While you are
0:45:06 > 0:45:09celebrating, yes or no, do you regret that people like Nora had
0:45:09 > 0:45:14left the party and that Claire Kober has resigned?Well, the Labour Party
0:45:14 > 0:45:18is a Broadchurch.I said yes or no, do you regret it?I would sooner
0:45:18 > 0:45:22people stay in the party and work together to beat the Conservatives.
0:45:22 > 0:45:26We are going to have to leave it there. Nora and Chris, thank you
0:45:26 > 0:45:28very much.
0:45:28 > 0:45:30Now, who's your political hero?
0:45:30 > 0:45:33We've all got someone we admire - and politicians are no exception.
0:45:33 > 0:45:34Elizabeth Glinka sat down with former Conservative Party
0:45:34 > 0:45:36leader William Hague to talk about his favourite
0:45:36 > 0:45:44political figure.
0:45:46 > 0:45:51William Hague, who is your political hero?
0:45:51 > 0:45:54My hero is William Pitt the Younger, the youngest Prime Minister ever
0:45:54 > 0:46:00in the history of this country, 24 years old, written
0:46:00 > 0:46:03off at the time as just a mince pie Prime Minister,
0:46:03 > 0:46:07a Prime Minister for Christmas and then out,
0:46:07 > 0:46:08and he served 19 years.
0:46:08 > 0:46:10When did you first come across him?
0:46:10 > 0:46:11Was it at school?
0:46:11 > 0:46:13I first came across him from Margaret Thatcher,
0:46:13 > 0:46:16would you believe?
0:46:16 > 0:46:20When I had my own fit of youthful endeavour
0:46:20 > 0:46:23in politics as a 16-year-old...
0:46:23 > 0:46:27It is all right for some of you.
0:46:27 > 0:46:30Half of you won't be here in 30 or 40 years' time.
0:46:30 > 0:46:34I was hauled off to see Margaret Thatcher and she said
0:46:34 > 0:46:37to the assembled press, "We might be standing
0:46:37 > 0:46:39here with another William Pitt," so I thought, "I'd better go
0:46:39 > 0:46:41and find out about this William Pitt."
0:46:41 > 0:46:45Well, as I did over the following 20 years, I became a great admirer.
0:46:45 > 0:46:48Pitt the Younger, so styled because his father, another William,
0:46:48 > 0:46:49had also been Prime Minister.
0:46:49 > 0:46:52He was a prodigy.
0:46:52 > 0:46:55He graduated from Cambridge at 17 and became an MP four
0:46:55 > 0:46:58years later, in 1781.
0:46:58 > 0:47:02A reformer, he considered himself not a Tory but an independent.
0:47:02 > 0:47:07He seems to me to be an undervalued figure in history
0:47:07 > 0:47:11and his name would come up in an episode of Blackadder.
0:47:11 > 0:47:14Mr Pitt is the Prime Minister, sir.
0:47:14 > 0:47:15Oh, go on!
0:47:15 > 0:47:17Is he?
0:47:17 > 0:47:20Young snotty here?
0:47:20 > 0:47:22Actually, he was this towering figure who stood
0:47:22 > 0:47:24alone against Napoleon.
0:47:24 > 0:47:27He plotted naval strategy with Nelson, he dealt
0:47:27 > 0:47:31with the most extraordinary range of circumstances.
0:47:31 > 0:47:34Pitt took over as Britain was rocked by the loss
0:47:34 > 0:47:40of its American colonies.
0:47:40 > 0:47:42With the national debt spiraling, Honest Billy set
0:47:42 > 0:47:50about steadying the ship.
0:47:50 > 0:47:53He would later introduce income tax and the first paper money.
0:47:53 > 0:47:56This was much mocked at the time, that just like they said how
0:47:56 > 0:47:59Augustus had found Rome of brick and left it marble, so he had found
0:47:59 > 0:48:07England made of gold and left it made of paper.
0:48:09 > 0:48:16His keeping the country creditworthy, the inexhaustible
0:48:16 > 0:48:19credit of the City of London and Britain at that time,
0:48:19 > 0:48:21that allowed it to overcome Napoleon in the end,
0:48:21 > 0:48:24because the French could hardly ever run out of men and Britain
0:48:24 > 0:48:26could hardly ever run out of money.
0:48:26 > 0:48:28And that rivalry with the French emperor would come to
0:48:28 > 0:48:29define his premiership.
0:48:29 > 0:48:32Pitt was the great figure in the world, opposing Napoleon,
0:48:32 > 0:48:35and you can see the illustrations of the time of Pitt and Napoleon
0:48:35 > 0:48:38carving the world between them.
0:48:38 > 0:48:42Despite his success, Pitt was famously aloof and even shy.
0:48:42 > 0:48:45He never married and his devotion to his country consumed his life.
0:48:45 > 0:48:48His drinking contributing to his death at just 46.
0:48:48 > 0:48:52Becoming so powerful so early in life actually stunted his growth
0:48:52 > 0:49:00as a human being in other ways.
0:49:00 > 0:49:02You don't make new friends or develop new interests if you are
0:49:02 > 0:49:06at the heart of government.
0:49:06 > 0:49:09And you talk about how his coming to power at such a young age
0:49:09 > 0:49:11may have affected his persona, his personality.
0:49:11 > 0:49:14You were party leader very young, mid-30s.
0:49:14 > 0:49:20Did that affect how you portrayed yourself in the public sphere?
0:49:20 > 0:49:23All of us who are in those situations experience a bit
0:49:23 > 0:49:27of what William Pitt did.
0:49:27 > 0:49:31Most of us have periods where we go out of office and we see
0:49:31 > 0:49:36life in a different way and when the world looks rather
0:49:36 > 0:49:39monochrome as a senior politician, it all gets its colour again
0:49:39 > 0:49:41when you leave politics.
0:49:41 > 0:49:44People described him as sort of buttoned up and stoic.
0:49:44 > 0:49:45Is that something that resonated with you?
0:49:45 > 0:49:52Well, hopefully I'm not like that.
0:49:52 > 0:49:54Something that I do identify with is that he really
0:49:54 > 0:49:59gave full vent to his personality in Parliament.
0:49:59 > 0:50:03And this is an age when the House of Commons had in it Charles James Fox,
0:50:03 > 0:50:07Richard Brinsley Sheridan, Edmund Burke, William Wilberforce.
0:50:07 > 0:50:09This is an age that makes today's parliament look
0:50:09 > 0:50:11pedestrian in the extreme.
0:50:11 > 0:50:15I suspect I would have been happier in the 18th-century parliament -
0:50:15 > 0:50:19although much less likely to be in it, of course - than in the late
0:50:19 > 0:50:2420th century Parliament.
0:50:24 > 0:50:26And is it that steadiness, then, that you really admire?
0:50:26 > 0:50:28Is that the core of it?
0:50:28 > 0:50:29Yes, I do.
0:50:29 > 0:50:33He is the pilot who weathered the storm.
0:50:33 > 0:50:36He said he would prefer to die at his post rather than desert it -
0:50:36 > 0:50:39not something we often associate with political leaders.
0:50:39 > 0:50:42And he did, indeed, die at his post.
0:50:42 > 0:50:44William Hague, thank you very much.
0:50:44 > 0:50:52Thank you.
0:50:53 > 0:51:00William Hague there on his political hero, Pitt the Younger. Other films
0:51:00 > 0:51:03in the series are available on the website.
0:51:03 > 0:51:06Earlier this week Donald Trump gave his State of the Union address
0:51:06 > 0:51:08to Congress, where he hailed the "new American moment"
0:51:08 > 0:51:10and struck a conciliatory tone towards the Democrats, calling
0:51:10 > 0:51:11for them to work together.
0:51:11 > 0:51:14The address is an annual speech where the President gets to set
0:51:14 > 0:51:17out his agenda for the next year and talk about what
0:51:17 > 0:51:18he's achieved so far.
0:51:18 > 0:51:22Here's a flavour of what he said.
0:51:22 > 0:51:27Tonight, I call upon all of us to set aside our differences,
0:51:27 > 0:51:29to seek out common ground and to summon the unity we need
0:51:29 > 0:51:33to deliver for the people.
0:51:33 > 0:51:36This is really a kid.
0:51:36 > 0:51:42These are the people we were elected to serve.
0:51:42 > 0:51:44And just as I promised the American people from this
0:51:44 > 0:51:46podium 11 months ago, we enacted the biggest tax cuts
0:51:46 > 0:51:48and reforms in American history.
0:51:48 > 0:51:55CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:51:55 > 0:51:59We repealed the core of the disastrous Obamacare.
0:51:59 > 0:52:05The individual mandate is now gone.
0:52:05 > 0:52:11CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:52:11 > 0:52:13And we're joined now by former Conservative MP and Trump
0:52:13 > 0:52:19Twitter-critic-in-chief Louise Mensch.
0:52:19 > 0:52:24What a catchy title. Welcome. Did you welcome the more conciliatory
0:52:24 > 0:52:30tone in his address?I paid quite literally no attention to it.What,
0:52:30 > 0:52:35the address at all?Not really, no. I know what is coming down in the
0:52:35 > 0:52:40investigation. At the time
0:52:41 > 0:52:45investigation. At the time this year, he got half a day's news cycle
0:52:45 > 0:52:51like he is getting now. Then the general Flynn news cycle. Today, the
0:52:51 > 0:52:54news has already moved on to the giant fighter Donald Trump is having
0:52:54 > 0:52:59with the FBI.You have already tweeted in response to Donald
0:52:59 > 0:53:07Trump's tweet. The top leadership of the FBI and the Justice Department
0:53:07 > 0:53:10have politicised the sacred investigative process in favour of
0:53:10 > 0:53:12Democrats and against Republicans- something that would have been
0:53:12 > 0:53:19unbeatable just a short time ago. Rank and file are great people.Bob
0:53:19 > 0:53:25Mueller, Republican. He will have a really hard time making this case.
0:53:25 > 0:53:28And of course criminals don't like cops. That is what you have got
0:53:28 > 0:53:33there. He can to eat all day long. Nothing is going to change. Do you
0:53:33 > 0:53:39think it is all coming down the track to Donald Trump?I don't know.
0:53:39 > 0:53:44I've been making predictions and may never come true. I think this does
0:53:44 > 0:53:54have some traction. I actually did quite interesting and nuanced speech
0:53:54 > 0:53:58about how America first doesn't necessarily mean America alone. But
0:53:58 > 0:54:04he is always unable to keep it up very long.But he did extend a hand
0:54:04 > 0:54:09to the Democrats. He spoke of a tide of optimism. It is an improvement if
0:54:09 > 0:54:15you're looking at it from your perspective, Louise, in terms of the
0:54:15 > 0:54:21rhetoric?But at some point, he is going to come up against the
0:54:21 > 0:54:23investigation and up against into stations which will hold on to some
0:54:23 > 0:54:30sort of account. -- up against institutions.The difference with
0:54:30 > 0:54:35the speeches and the improper to question session and the speeches is
0:54:35 > 0:54:38that somebody else writes the speeches.Funnily enough, that's not
0:54:38 > 0:54:45the biggest revelation to make an politics.They're not authentic. The
0:54:45 > 0:54:52tweets are.What about his core base? He has delivered to that core
0:54:52 > 0:54:58base.The tax plan has been delivered. And people are finding
0:54:58 > 0:55:01out it's not as bad as all that, which is why some moderate
0:55:01 > 0:55:05Republicans I think about it for that tax plan. I'm completely
0:55:05 > 0:55:08uninterested in politics because we are in the middle of Watergate and
0:55:08 > 0:55:15that is what I am completely focus on.But he has the core behind him.
0:55:15 > 0:55:21But does he really? They have him rated at a gigantic high but he got
0:55:21 > 0:55:28the lowest approval ratings or any president since polling began for
0:55:28 > 0:55:31his first year.Sure, but he's not going to care about that
0:55:31 > 0:55:35particularly at the moment. They will point to in the White House 2.4
0:55:35 > 0:55:39million jobs, people will have more money in their pockets, you talked
0:55:39 > 0:55:46about the tax cuts, growth is up. It's the economy, stupid.Then, why
0:55:46 > 0:55:50aren't his ratings higher? When you come to an all-time high of only
0:55:50 > 0:55:5642%, that's just not very good. That's what this programme is about.
0:55:56 > 0:56:00You have only just realised then that is the end of the show.It is
0:56:00 > 0:56:03the same thing with Brexit and David Cameron said it so well, it's not
0:56:03 > 0:56:06what everyone would have chosen, but actually it hasn't been as bad as
0:56:06 > 0:56:11everyone would have predicted it to be. Really, has it?You thought it
0:56:11 > 0:56:17was going to be better, did you?The only thing I am slightly surprised
0:56:17 > 0:56:22about is that it has taken this long. I think Orange will be the new
0:56:22 > 0:56:28orange. You said on Twitter, I am enjoying this thoroughly. Good
0:56:28 > 0:56:32things are about to happen. Rats bared their fangs because they're in
0:56:32 > 0:56:35a corner. Get your champagne and popcorn ready. What things are going
0:56:35 > 0:56:39to happen?Well, we will see what happens after the state of the
0:56:39 > 0:56:43union. The real author of this memo suddenly announced that he is going
0:56:43 > 0:56:47to step down. Oh, what a surprise! He was undoubtably forced into that,
0:56:47 > 0:56:52and I think what you see here is the Justice Department is not taking any
0:56:52 > 0:56:57rubbish from him over this ridiculous attempt at a smear.If
0:56:57 > 0:57:04that were getting the champagne and popcorn out?No, I think the Mueller
0:57:04 > 0:57:10interview with Trump will be worth that.It is not a done deal, is it?
0:57:10 > 0:57:13Exactly as you said about cornered rats showing their teeth. If he goes
0:57:13 > 0:57:17into a situation which it had blasted his way out of, then I think
0:57:17 > 0:57:19we will start seeing the sort of things we are also scared about
0:57:19 > 0:57:27anti-Cameroonian it is not as bad as it looked -- and the quote from
0:57:27 > 0:57:35David Cameron it is not as bad as it looked like not be true.Is it as it
0:57:35 > 0:57:38begins to spill into the conspiracy theory arena and then you start to
0:57:38 > 0:57:42lose people, and then they don't trust what you are saying.I really
0:57:42 > 0:57:45don't care about that because what I am reporting is true. Conspiracy is
0:57:45 > 0:57:50not a theory. Mueller already has three convictions from people who
0:57:50 > 0:57:55have admitted it and only Paul Manafort is denying it. Just
0:57:55 > 0:57:59yesterday, Rick Gates decided to flip and cooperate with prosecutors.
0:57:59 > 0:58:03Watergate was a lot of nothing until all of a sudden there were tens of
0:58:03 > 0:58:06indictments handed out in a single day and this is what you will find
0:58:06 > 0:58:13out -- this time too.Do you think Theresa May can last the course of
0:58:13 > 0:58:19Brexit?Yes. I hadn't
0:58:19 > 0:58:21Brexit?Yes. I hadn't played paid much attention but she always seems
0:58:21 > 0:58:26to be going out and then doesn't. She is a steady hand. And as all the
0:58:26 > 0:58:29chaos that is going on, I struggle to think they would get to replace,
0:58:29 > 0:58:31so I think she will fine.
0:58:31 > 0:58:35There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
0:58:35 > 0:58:36The question was ...
0:58:36 > 0:58:38What nickname have the Chinese given Theresa May?
0:58:38 > 0:58:39Was it...
0:58:39 > 0:58:40A - Mummy May?
0:58:40 > 0:58:41B - Granny May?
0:58:41 > 0:58:42C - Auntie May?
0:58:42 > 0:58:43Or D - Sister May?
0:58:43 > 0:58:45So, Harry and Zoe, what's the correct answer?
0:58:45 > 0:58:48It's Auntie May!
0:58:48 > 0:58:49That's all for today.
0:58:49 > 0:58:51Thanks to my guests.
0:58:51 > 0:58:53The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.
0:58:53 > 0:58:56Sarah Smith will be back on Sunday on BBC One at 11
0:58:56 > 0:58:57with the Sunday Politics.
0:58:57 > 0:59:00And I'll be back here on BBC Two on Monday at midday
0:59:00 > 0:59:01with more Daily Politics.