0:00:38 > 0:00:41Hello, and welcome to The Daily Politics.
0:00:41 > 0:00:45The EU's chief negotiator arrives in London later today at the start
0:00:45 > 0:00:49of a big week for the Brexit process - so will we get any more clarity
0:00:49 > 0:00:56on the shape of our future relationship with the EU?
0:00:56 > 0:01:01What will happen at the Borders after Brexit? Downing Street rules
0:01:01 > 0:01:04out any form of customs union with the EU so what will our arrangements
0:01:04 > 0:01:07look like?
0:01:07 > 0:01:09A panel of health experts recommends scrapping National Insurance
0:01:09 > 0:01:12in favour of a new ring-fenced tax to fund the NHS and social care.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15So is this the answer to the problems in the health service?
0:01:15 > 0:01:19After Jacob Rees-Mogg is caught up in a scuffle at a speaking event,
0:01:19 > 0:01:21the Conservative Party launches a petition to protect free speech
0:01:21 > 0:01:23and says it will bring forward new laws against intimidation
0:01:23 > 0:01:28of political candidates.
0:01:28 > 0:01:31Does history A-Level have a pro-Tory bias?
0:01:31 > 0:01:35One Labour MP thinks so and has taken to her soapbox.
0:01:35 > 0:01:43The Conservatives are quite literally rewriting history.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole
0:01:49 > 0:01:52of the programme today the Labour MP Luciana Berger and Conservative
0:01:52 > 0:01:55MP Robert Halfon - welcome to you both.
0:01:55 > 0:01:58First today, after protesters disrupted a speech by Conservative
0:01:58 > 0:02:02MP Jacob Rees-Mogg at a student event in Bristol over the weekend,
0:02:02 > 0:02:05ways to combat the intimidation and abuse of MPs is back
0:02:05 > 0:02:07on the agenda.
0:02:07 > 0:02:11On yesterday's Sunday Politics Conservative Chairman Brandon Lewis
0:02:11 > 0:02:14spoke to Sarah Smith about what more could be done to protect our
0:02:14 > 0:02:16elected representatives.
0:02:16 > 0:02:20We are going to change the law to make it against the law
0:02:20 > 0:02:21for people to intimidate people.
0:02:21 > 0:02:23Part of that is allowing local election candidates to not have
0:02:23 > 0:02:25to put their home address.
0:02:25 > 0:02:29As we saw in the last elections, people having abuse in their homes.
0:02:29 > 0:02:32But also, from the Conservative Party point of view,
0:02:32 > 0:02:36internally we are going to have, as I launched a few weeks ago,
0:02:36 > 0:02:38a respect pledge that all our candidates will sign up to.
0:02:38 > 0:02:40If they breach that code we will suspend them,
0:02:40 > 0:02:42and we will investigate it.
0:02:42 > 0:02:44I'm disappointed that, some four weeks in, the Labour
0:02:44 > 0:02:46leadership still have not stepped up to the plate to do
0:02:46 > 0:02:52the right thing on this.
0:02:52 > 0:02:59Luciana, why won't Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party sign up to this new
0:02:59 > 0:03:01code of conduct?The Conservatives are bringing forward their own code
0:03:01 > 0:03:05of conduct. If the Labour Party brings one forward I would welcome
0:03:05 > 0:03:10it. It would be a very positive step forward. The proposals being put
0:03:10 > 0:03:13forward today to ensure that council candidates don't have to put their
0:03:13 > 0:03:17addresses on the ballot paper is very important, and also ensuring we
0:03:17 > 0:03:22have measures in place to protect all candidates. At the moment laws
0:03:22 > 0:03:26protect voters which is important to make sure they aren't intimidated
0:03:26 > 0:03:29but as we've seen in recent elections, intimidation takes place
0:03:29 > 0:03:34and we should be doing everything to mitigate against it.But we do have
0:03:34 > 0:03:38extensive laws that exist already to protect people from abuse and
0:03:38 > 0:03:42intimidation. Why do we need more legislation is?The laws aren't
0:03:42 > 0:03:47working and the climate has got incredibly bad. I've fought five
0:03:47 > 0:03:51elections, I've been a candidate since 1999. It's dramatically
0:03:51 > 0:03:56different now. In my constituency we've had people painting on walls
0:03:56 > 0:04:02if volunteers put up posters, painting on the house, not just
0:04:02 > 0:04:06wrecking the poster.Wouldn't that come under the Public order act?It
0:04:06 > 0:04:11doesn't seem to be working. People can write whatever they want on
0:04:11 > 0:04:17social media, quite libellous stuff. This isn't just about candidates or
0:04:17 > 0:04:21electoral representatives, it's also about the activities against
0:04:21 > 0:04:27volunteers or members of parties being intimidated.Intimidation is
0:04:27 > 0:04:30what exactly? Who would judge the intimidating behaviour? Would it be
0:04:30 > 0:04:38the recipient or people passing by? Common sense. If someone is being
0:04:38 > 0:04:42harassed, if someone paints something on someone's house, if
0:04:42 > 0:04:46someone threatens to have their friends burnt down because they are
0:04:46 > 0:04:53displaying a Conservative poster and it is then burned down -- fence is
0:04:53 > 0:04:58burnt down. Social media is important too.Luciana, you had an
0:04:58 > 0:05:02online troll and he directed vicious anti-Semitic threats against you
0:05:02 > 0:05:07continually, and he was jailed. Did the legislation not work in that
0:05:07 > 0:05:12instance?I've had three people that have been jailed for online abuse,
0:05:12 > 0:05:16sadly. The challenge with those cases is that they took a really
0:05:16 > 0:05:21long time to get to court. We are talking about in one case, close to
0:05:21 > 0:05:26two years. The challenge at election time is what can be done to ensure
0:05:26 > 0:05:29we protect all candidates and everything in the election process
0:05:29 > 0:05:37which happens in a much shorter time than current legislation exists for.
0:05:37 > 0:05:41If you are in a newspaper or book and you publish something
0:05:41 > 0:05:44defamatory, you can see the publisher. Whereas with Facebook and
0:05:44 > 0:05:49Twitter, they can have stuff on it that can be trolling and bullying
0:05:49 > 0:05:54and is very difficult to do something about.You would like the
0:05:54 > 0:05:58publisher to be responsible?And the perpetrator.Lets take the example
0:05:58 > 0:06:01of Jacob Rees-Mogg. You will have seen the pictures of the scuffle
0:06:01 > 0:06:07that broke out protesting against his presence and his speech. Would
0:06:07 > 0:06:10you have regarded that as intimidating behaviour that would be
0:06:10 > 0:06:16prosecuted under a new law?Jacob has said himself it was a tough
0:06:16 > 0:06:19protest but protest should be allowed.How did you view it before
0:06:19 > 0:06:25he said anything?People who turn up in masks and stop any kind of debate
0:06:25 > 0:06:29and discourse, and looks like it's going to become violent, you have to
0:06:29 > 0:06:33judge things on common sense. I believe in protest and
0:06:33 > 0:06:37demonstration, but it has to be fair. You have to make sure all the
0:06:37 > 0:06:44arguments are heard. These people wanted to stop Jacob Rees-Mogg from
0:06:44 > 0:06:48speaking out. What do you think there is a danger that bringing in
0:06:48 > 0:06:53new legislation is actually going to stifle that sort of debate and
0:06:53 > 0:06:55protest? There's intimidation but there is also trying to drown
0:06:55 > 0:06:59somebody out. If they were trying to stop in speaking at all, I think
0:06:59 > 0:07:04these things can be judged on a case-by-case basis and I think
0:07:04 > 0:07:08common sense can be applied. It's pretty easy to see what has happened
0:07:08 > 0:07:12on this occasion, but the law needs to be tougher for the reasons we
0:07:12 > 0:07:17talked about.I want to ensure that anyone who's interested in taking
0:07:17 > 0:07:22part in public life is able to do so. I think people seeing some of
0:07:22 > 0:07:26what has happened, particularly in the wake of the referendum on
0:07:26 > 0:07:29Brexit, but we do everything possible to create environments
0:07:29 > 0:07:36where people from every walk of life feel able to put forward. When
0:07:36 > 0:07:39speaking to a younger audience recently, I can understand why they
0:07:39 > 0:07:42might not want to and we should be doing ever been possible to
0:07:42 > 0:07:46encourage people to put themselves forward.What about at atmosphere
0:07:46 > 0:07:50within your own party, how should that be handled when Barack claims
0:07:50 > 0:07:55made about sexist and anti-Semitic behaviour -- how should that be
0:07:55 > 0:08:00handled when claims are made?There is a number of serious high-profile
0:08:00 > 0:08:02cases waiting to be heard and I don't think that administration
0:08:02 > 0:08:12should be impediment to taking action.The problem is Jeremy Corbyn
0:08:12 > 0:08:15and John McDonald gives the appearance of turning a blind eye.
0:08:15 > 0:08:20They never come out out rightly and condemn political intimidation.They
0:08:20 > 0:08:25say they do, of course.John McDonald has called for zero
0:08:25 > 0:08:30tolerance on anti-Semitism, and I want to see that put into action and
0:08:30 > 0:08:32the NEC addressing what is a serious backlog of cases.We'll leave it
0:08:32 > 0:08:34there.
0:08:34 > 0:08:36Now it's time for our daily quiz.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39The question for today is what is the Labour Party planning
0:08:39 > 0:08:40to launch this summer?
0:08:40 > 0:08:41Was it...
0:08:41 > 0:08:43A - Their manifesto for the next general election.
0:08:43 > 0:08:45B - A policy paper on manhole covers.
0:08:45 > 0:08:47C - A Blairite rival to campaign group Momentum.
0:08:47 > 0:08:49D - Jeremy Corbyn music festival.
0:08:49 > 0:08:51At the end of the show Luciana and Robert will give
0:08:51 > 0:08:52us the correct answer.
0:08:52 > 0:08:56The government has categorically ruled out staying in any form
0:08:56 > 0:08:58of customs union with the EU.
0:08:58 > 0:09:01This comes as Michel Barnier, the EU's chief Brexit negotiator,
0:09:01 > 0:09:03is expected to arrive in Downing Street within the hour
0:09:03 > 0:09:08for talks with the Brexit Secretary David Davis and Theresa May.
0:09:08 > 0:09:13Later this week, there will be two meetings
0:09:13 > 0:09:15of the so-called Brexit War Cabinet, where senior ministers
0:09:15 > 0:09:18will try to come to an agreement on what our future relationship
0:09:18 > 0:09:20with the EU should look like.
0:09:20 > 0:09:22Last night, a Downing Street source said: "We are categorically
0:09:22 > 0:09:24leaving the customs union."
0:09:24 > 0:09:27The EU's customs union is an arrangement where goods can
0:09:27 > 0:09:29move freely inside the union but tariffs are applied on products
0:09:29 > 0:09:34coming in from outside countries.
0:09:34 > 0:09:36The Downing Street source further clarified the government's position
0:09:36 > 0:09:42by saying: "It is not our policy to stay in a customs union."
0:09:42 > 0:09:45But the Home Secretary Amber Rudd told the BBC yesterday
0:09:45 > 0:09:47that the government has an "open mind" about entering "a customs
0:09:47 > 0:09:51arrangement or a customs partnership" with the EU.
0:09:51 > 0:09:54And back in January last year, Theresa May used her Lancaster House
0:09:54 > 0:09:57speech to say: "I do want us to have a customs
0:09:57 > 0:10:02agreement with the EU."
0:10:02 > 0:10:03But the government's latest announcement
0:10:03 > 0:10:08on the customs union comes after pressure from Brexiteers.
0:10:08 > 0:10:10Yesterday, the Conservative MP Bernard Jenkin said that ministers
0:10:10 > 0:10:14are "vague" and "divided" over Brexit.
0:10:14 > 0:10:16He also accused the Chancellor Philip Hammond of failing
0:10:16 > 0:10:20to advocate the government's policy on the customs union.
0:10:20 > 0:10:22And this morning, The Times is reporting that the government
0:10:22 > 0:10:24is considering "a time-limited extension to elements
0:10:24 > 0:10:30of the existing customs union".
0:10:30 > 0:10:37Joining me now from Reading is the Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan.
0:10:37 > 0:10:43Welcome to The Daily Politics. The government have ruled out staying in
0:10:43 > 0:10:46the customs union or a customs union, but they might want to be in
0:10:46 > 0:10:52a customs partnership or a customs agreement with the EU. It's about as
0:10:52 > 0:10:58clear as mud, isn't it?I think it's clearer than mud. The reason we are
0:10:58 > 0:11:02leaving the customs union is because if we are in the customs union, we
0:11:02 > 0:11:06give Brussels 100% control of our trade policy without having any
0:11:06 > 0:11:10input into it. That would leave us worse off than staying where we are
0:11:10 > 0:11:14as members. 90% of the growth of this century is coming from outside
0:11:14 > 0:11:21the EU. Britain needs to be where those markets are. All along it was
0:11:21 > 0:11:25clear, in the Lancaster House speech, in the policy papers, and in
0:11:25 > 0:11:28this new Department of International trade, that we were doing our rain
0:11:28 > 0:11:33trade policy. What does a customs arrangement mean? That means
0:11:33 > 0:11:36procedures that facilitate the smooth and frictionless flow of
0:11:36 > 0:11:41goods across borders. For example, there is something little remarked
0:11:41 > 0:11:45upon but critical called the common Customs Convention, which covers all
0:11:45 > 0:11:52EU countries as well as a lot of Balkan countries and Turkey which
0:11:52 > 0:11:57provides the goods to be transported without having to show paperwork at
0:11:57 > 0:12:00borders within the EU. That's the kind of thing Britain should stay in
0:12:00 > 0:12:06because we want to have a deal that makes it as easy as possible to move
0:12:06 > 0:12:13goods around.This doesn't exist, this deal, this customs arrangement
0:12:13 > 0:12:17that you have described. This would be a special arrangement that the EU
0:12:17 > 0:12:21would have to agree to an British terms, but as you say would allow
0:12:21 > 0:12:26them still to strike their own free trade deals. But, have frictionless
0:12:26 > 0:12:30trade with perhaps certain goods in certain sectors. At the moment this
0:12:30 > 0:12:36doesn't exist.Be common customs convention is in fourth now. It
0:12:36 > 0:12:42covers relationships between the EU and Switzerland. Over a million
0:12:42 > 0:12:45people cross the Swiss border every day. Because it's on a major haulage
0:12:45 > 0:12:49route...Switzerland participates in the single market and signed up to
0:12:49 > 0:12:54roars of freedom of movement.Yes, but it's clearly outside the customs
0:12:54 > 0:12:58union. The single market is a different question. Switzerland and
0:12:58 > 0:13:03the Norway- Sweden border are examples of how you can have fairly
0:13:03 > 0:13:07frictionless borders even now. But yes, we could go further. To be
0:13:07 > 0:13:17frank, I think the residual 50 dual physical checks you get even on
0:13:18 > 0:13:22about 50% of...Which doesn't exist in Ireland at the moment.The reason
0:13:22 > 0:13:27those things are there is because they were already there. You've got
0:13:27 > 0:13:30a unionised customs workforce. Starting from modern technology,
0:13:30 > 0:13:36with what we have now, both our HMRC and the Irish equivalent, both heads
0:13:36 > 0:13:41of those organisations have made very clear that an under any
0:13:41 > 0:13:49situation there can be a customs declaration.Is it really sensible
0:13:49 > 0:13:55to leave the customs union right now anyway?Absolutely critical.At the
0:13:55 > 0:13:59moment the EU makes up nearly half of our trade. What solid evidence is
0:13:59 > 0:14:05there that any trade we lose with the EU can be made up quickly by
0:14:05 > 0:14:08trade deals with countries like America and China?This is begging
0:14:08 > 0:14:16the question, the EU accounts for 44% of our trade because we are in a
0:14:16 > 0:14:20customs union at artificially redirected our trade away from
0:14:20 > 0:14:25global markets.What evidence do you have that it will make up our volume
0:14:25 > 0:14:29of trade that we currently have? Where is the evidence to say that
0:14:29 > 0:14:32those free-trade deals will match or exceed what we currently have?What
0:14:32 > 0:14:36we want is to have continued frictionless movement of goods and
0:14:36 > 0:14:40services with the EU, but greater opportunity to sign our trade deals
0:14:40 > 0:14:44with the world's biggest economy the US, the second-biggest economy
0:14:44 > 0:14:48China, which the EU doesn't at the moment.George Osborne says the
0:14:48 > 0:14:53figures
0:14:53 > 0:14:55figures don't add up. The analysis that was leaked last week, the row
0:14:55 > 0:14:58over the papers about how much growth would decrease by under any
0:14:58 > 0:15:00of these scenarios. On the one they were talking about leaving the
0:15:00 > 0:15:08customs union and going on to WTO terms would increase growth by 8%
0:15:08 > 0:15:13over 15 years. A trade deal would only increase by 0.2%. That is a
0:15:13 > 0:15:23huge difference.The same officials said that after a leave vote our GDP
0:15:23 > 0:15:27would shrink, it has actually grown. They said there would be more
0:15:27 > 0:15:31unemployed people and there has been a fall of half a million. For give
0:15:31 > 0:15:35me if I'm a little sceptical about the same people who blatantly have a
0:15:35 > 0:15:41preferred outcome having an analysis that supports their preference.
0:15:41 > 0:15:47Britain is a global country. A world trade. We have been artificially
0:15:47 > 0:15:53penalised, more than any other country by the customs union because
0:15:53 > 0:15:58we are usually the only country in the EU that trade more outside the
0:15:58 > 0:16:02EU ban within it. When we have the freedom to do that again, people
0:16:02 > 0:16:09will see the price of goods fall, and we are better off because we
0:16:09 > 0:16:11have more money to spend to stimulate the economy in other
0:16:11 > 0:16:18areas.When you talk about people putting out the analysis, do you
0:16:18 > 0:16:21agree with Jacob Rees-Mogg that there is an in-built bias, that they
0:16:21 > 0:16:30are fiddling the figures?All humans have a tendency to read figures in a
0:16:30 > 0:16:35particular way. All of ours are subject to confirmation bias and
0:16:35 > 0:16:39these ascendancy is. That doesn't stop being true because you work for
0:16:39 > 0:16:44the Treasury. The trick in politics I've learned is direct nice that in
0:16:44 > 0:16:48yourself and correct it. I don't think that has been going on in this
0:16:48 > 0:16:52case?So you believe there is in-built bias and they are fiddling
0:16:52 > 0:16:59the figures and it is not a true picture of what is going on?They
0:16:59 > 0:17:02have been totally wrong so far in what has happened over the last two
0:17:02 > 0:17:08years. An impartial assessment might be let's go back and look at some of
0:17:08 > 0:17:13the underlying assumptions made. The fact that the British economy has
0:17:13 > 0:17:17grown in defiance of what they have said might lead them to challenge
0:17:17 > 0:17:20prejudices. They haven't done that and have come out with the same
0:17:20 > 0:17:25flawed analysis but they did during the referendum. I'm not saying this
0:17:25 > 0:17:33is deliberately from fiddling the figures. If you judge to get away
0:17:33 > 0:17:36from predictions and look at fact, if you judge what they have said
0:17:36 > 0:17:40against what has happened it is very difficult to take this new analysis
0:17:40 > 0:17:46seriously.Robert Halfon, Amber Rudd said that the government hasn't been
0:17:46 > 0:17:54intimidated by Brexiteers, but they have within hours of the weekend's
0:17:54 > 0:18:01briefings capitulated on the customs union. Are they running scared?I
0:18:01 > 0:18:06voted remain because I thought it was right to be part of an alliance
0:18:06 > 0:18:10of democracies. We didn't vote to be in parts of it, we voted to leave
0:18:10 > 0:18:14the EU.My question was are they running scared of the Brexiteers and
0:18:14 > 0:18:20putting pressure on Theresa May?In the Lancaster house speech, she said
0:18:20 > 0:18:25that she was going to leave the customs union. She said this before.
0:18:25 > 0:18:30I don't believe it is some dramatic change in position.So why does
0:18:30 > 0:18:35Jacob Rees-Mogg feel the need to brief in a particular direction?He
0:18:35 > 0:18:39was talking about the forecasts not just about the customs union.Is
0:18:39 > 0:18:44there a need for him to brief in the way he has against either the
0:18:44 > 0:18:49Treasury or the civil service? People have their own view about the
0:18:49 > 0:18:52Treasury predictions, some of them have been wrong in the past, no one
0:18:52 > 0:18:55actually knows what is going to happen once we leave the European
0:18:55 > 0:19:00Union but we have to get on with it. What the government needs to do, the
0:19:00 > 0:19:04Prime Minister needs to do, is to set out the policies, everybody
0:19:04 > 0:19:07should speak with the same hymn sheet and go out there and sell it
0:19:07 > 0:19:13to the public who voted to leave. Luciano, do you believe it is time
0:19:13 > 0:19:19for Labour Party to take a firmer line on the customs union? Vince
0:19:19 > 0:19:26Cable said you are colluding with Brexit by allowing this to happen?I
0:19:26 > 0:19:30have been to a front bench awayday to discuss these issues, faced with
0:19:30 > 0:19:34the prospect of ten years of posterity as the leaked reports
0:19:34 > 0:19:38indicate, I would anticipate that our front bench will come out very
0:19:38 > 0:19:44strongly in favour of a customs union because anything else, as a
0:19:44 > 0:19:48constituency MP, I think it is going to be disastrous in terms of job and
0:19:48 > 0:19:53our economy.Would you support that line? Do you think they should be
0:19:53 > 0:19:58doing it now?Imminently, there is going to be this awayday when they
0:19:58 > 0:20:05go to look at the evidence. Keir Starmer has said that he wants to
0:20:05 > 0:20:09look closely at the evidence, it is a result of a Labour motion that we
0:20:09 > 0:20:13will be able to access and to see that information and those reports.
0:20:13 > 0:20:17That's critical to arrive at doing what will be the very best for our
0:20:17 > 0:20:23country.One of the risks of coming out of any sort of customs union
0:20:23 > 0:20:28with the EU is this hard border. The issue of the hard border with
0:20:28 > 0:20:32Ireland. Dan Hanlan said that there should be ways to get around this
0:20:32 > 0:20:35but do you accept that there wouldn't be a majority of MPs that
0:20:35 > 0:20:40would vote for a deal in that meaningful vote of coming out of the
0:20:40 > 0:20:43customs union?I don't know how people are going to vote on the day.
0:20:43 > 0:20:50We had a majority to leave the EU. We had a majority to trigger Article
0:20:50 > 0:20:5450. I passionately believe because the country voted for it and even
0:20:54 > 0:20:59though I voted against it, we should get on with it and leave the EU.
0:20:59 > 0:21:03Whether the consequences are good or not. We have to have a clear message
0:21:03 > 0:21:08to sell to the public?Has Theresa May set out clearly what she has
0:21:08 > 0:21:14meant?I thought she has in terms of the speeches made at forums and
0:21:14 > 0:21:17Lancaster house and I believe there is going to be another speech in the
0:21:17 > 0:21:22near future. We need tablets of stone from Mount Sinai and every
0:21:22 > 0:21:27single Cabinet minister needs to read from those tablets of stone.
0:21:27 > 0:21:31The leaving the EU Commandments and how we are going to do it so we all
0:21:31 > 0:21:34speak in the same way and sell to the public how exactly we are
0:21:34 > 0:21:38leaving.The problem is getting an agreement on what those tablets of
0:21:38 > 0:21:43stone should be.Amber Rudd says there is much more unity than is
0:21:43 > 0:21:48reported in the depressed.I can't be Brexit at any cost. The road we
0:21:48 > 0:21:53are going down at the moment is that the consequences will be absolutely
0:21:53 > 0:22:03fatal.You have no evidence for that.
0:22:03 > 0:22:12that.People are reducing production because of Brexit.Daniel Hannan,
0:22:12 > 0:22:15people have a priori deigned position in their mind regarding
0:22:15 > 0:22:24Brexit. So Donnell has said that Brexiteers are snake all salesman.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27It proves the point about whether people have a set point in their
0:22:27 > 0:22:33mind.Does it undermine the position of the civil service?It made clear
0:22:33 > 0:22:37where he is coming from. I don't think it is fair to most civil
0:22:37 > 0:22:41servants. I don't think anyone would deny that the majority of our
0:22:41 > 0:22:45officials voted remain but most of them are patriotic he doing their
0:22:45 > 0:22:54best...Is he a snake oil salesman? I don't think it's fair that we say
0:22:54 > 0:23:01that. I think it is important that we recognise it was a big narrow
0:23:01 > 0:23:05vote and that has consequences of replicating aspects of the single
0:23:05 > 0:23:11market, an transition, on migration. There is no argument whatever, none,
0:23:11 > 0:23:14for allowing Brussels to control our trade policy when we have no say
0:23:14 > 0:23:21over what that should be. Even worse, when Brussels controls our
0:23:21 > 0:23:26trade policy, this is what a customs union with Turkey means, the result
0:23:26 > 0:23:30is Brussels can make you make concessions without any obligations
0:23:30 > 0:23:36on the other country to reciprocate. It is the worst of all possible
0:23:36 > 0:23:41worlds. It is incredible that people are recommending it.If the EU
0:23:41 > 0:23:45rejects your scenario, what is more important, being part of a customs
0:23:45 > 0:23:49union to continue frictionless trade or the freedom to strike free trade
0:23:49 > 0:23:55agreements with other countries?No question, total freedom to strike
0:23:55 > 0:24:00FTAs. Almost all the growth in the world is coming outside of Europe.
0:24:00 > 0:24:05There is no risk of a hard border. All the people saying listen to the
0:24:05 > 0:24:08experts are not listening to the experts on why we don't need a hard
0:24:08 > 0:24:18border.
0:24:21 > 0:24:23And for more reporting and analysis of Brexit,
0:24:23 > 0:24:24check out the BBC News website, that's bbc.co.uk/brexit.
0:24:24 > 0:24:27Would you be willing to pay a separate ring-fenced tax that
0:24:27 > 0:24:29would only be spent on the NHS and social care?
0:24:29 > 0:24:32That's one of the main suggestions put forward by a panel
0:24:32 > 0:24:34of experts commissioned by the Liberal Democrats to look
0:24:34 > 0:24:36into the future of health care.
0:24:36 > 0:24:38They've just published their report and some of the other
0:24:38 > 0:24:40recommendations include: A real-terms funding increase
0:24:40 > 0:24:41of £4 billion in 2018-19.
0:24:41 > 0:24:43The creation of a new Office for Budget Responsibility
0:24:43 > 0:24:45for Health, and the introduction of incentives to encourage people
0:24:45 > 0:24:47to save towards social care.
0:24:47 > 0:24:49With me now is one of the report authors Clare Gerada -
0:24:49 > 0:24:52she who used to be Chair of the Royal College of GPs.
0:24:52 > 0:24:55She is also now a Liberal Democrat supporter.
0:24:55 > 0:25:07Welcome back to the daily politics. Is this just a way to deceive
0:25:07 > 0:25:16voters?That was said a number of years ago. As a layperson in this,
0:25:16 > 0:25:21in terms of fiscal policy, I was invited onto the committee to have a
0:25:21 > 0:25:24look at all the options available to have some more sustainable secure
0:25:24 > 0:25:32and really even fund for the NHS. Having looked at the reports from
0:25:32 > 0:25:37various think tanks, one of the best solutions that myself and the group
0:25:37 > 0:25:41came to after deliberating for about 18 months was that a ring fenced tax
0:25:41 > 0:25:46made up from general taxation, made up from increase in national
0:25:46 > 0:25:51insurance pay for those over 65 or 60 that are still working, seem to
0:25:51 > 0:25:55be the fairest and best way of having sustainable funding for the
0:25:55 > 0:26:01NHS.One of the writ is as is from the IFF and Paul Johnson is when we
0:26:01 > 0:26:11are in good times there is increased funding into the NHS. When we have a
0:26:11 > 0:26:14financial crash, those receipts will go down and so will funding for the
0:26:14 > 0:26:21NHS.Yes. I've now worked for the NHS for 40 years, we go from feast
0:26:21 > 0:26:27or famine and every political cycle. It's an impossible place to work.
0:26:27 > 0:26:36It's an impossible situation to working. There are advantages and
0:26:36 > 0:26:42disadvantages from a bifurcated tax but the BBC is funded from a
0:26:42 > 0:26:45hypothecated tax. I can see whether spending is going. I can take part
0:26:45 > 0:26:52in the good and discussion.Has it got your support?I wrote about this
0:26:52 > 0:26:58with Nick Boles and Nick Soames in the sun. I think it's important that
0:26:58 > 0:27:01it should be accompanied by a 10-year plan so that people know
0:27:01 > 0:27:06what the money is going to be spent on. I think every ten years,
0:27:06 > 0:27:10perhaps, we should look at ideas in consultation with the British people
0:27:10 > 0:27:16online or by a referendum, but with a guarantee of a real terms increase
0:27:16 > 0:27:20what ever happens, feast or famine. The debate would be how much above
0:27:20 > 0:27:25that real terms increase it would be. I think it is something all
0:27:25 > 0:27:31parties should support.Will the Treasury back it?Jeremy Hunt has
0:27:31 > 0:27:35talked about a 10-year plan for the NHS. He's not the Chancellor. It's
0:27:35 > 0:27:41been supported by many conservatives and people in Parliament. We have to
0:27:41 > 0:27:46have regular real terms annual increases in the NHS, 10-year plan,
0:27:46 > 0:27:51and a hypothecated tax that deals with social care.Are you convinced
0:27:51 > 0:27:56by a hyper the gated tax?We're having this because we haven't had
0:27:56 > 0:28:01the investment since the coalition government of 2010. We have a crisis
0:28:01 > 0:28:09in the NHS which says only today we are having to cancel urgent
0:28:09 > 0:28:13operations even if they are on the list. We haven't seen a 4% increase
0:28:13 > 0:28:18that we saw under Labour go into the NHS, of course the NHS should be put
0:28:18 > 0:28:22on a sustainable footing.The government has announced a further
0:28:22 > 0:28:27£10 billion funding. Even your own hospital in Liverpool, doctors have
0:28:27 > 0:28:36gone up.My mental health service has been cut by 43%.While we are
0:28:36 > 0:28:40trading statistics, do you support the idea of it being had by the
0:28:40 > 0:28:49gated? That seems that everybody seems that it is supporting an
0:28:49 > 0:28:57increase.I don't support a hypothecated tax. I didn't trust
0:28:57 > 0:29:04them to top it up.Of course you would say that as a Labour MP but
0:29:04 > 0:29:08even those in the Conservatives, Gavin Barwell, close adviser to
0:29:08 > 0:29:14Theresa May said we have lost the issue of the NHS.He's completely
0:29:14 > 0:29:18wrong about that. I've said that publicly. What I want is a 10-year
0:29:18 > 0:29:24plan for the NHS, a hypothecated tax and consultation with the British
0:29:24 > 0:29:28people and an annual real term increase. What you have done is
0:29:28 > 0:29:32incredibly important. What we should do is unite with all political
0:29:32 > 0:29:37parties to find a common solution for the NHS problem.How much would
0:29:37 > 0:29:42you spend if you don't trust the hypothecated tax being run by the
0:29:42 > 0:29:47Conservatives? How much of our GDP as a percentage should be spent on
0:29:47 > 0:29:51health?The one proposal I support is having an independent body to
0:29:51 > 0:29:55independently assess and appraise how much our NHS needs in the same
0:29:55 > 0:29:59way as we have the budget responsibility board. I think that's
0:29:59 > 0:30:03really important to make sure that the NHS and social care together
0:30:03 > 0:30:07have enough funding on a sustainable footing. That's what we don't have
0:30:07 > 0:30:12at the moment. We've seen cuts to our health services and our
0:30:12 > 0:30:14communities as well which sees more people present with community and
0:30:14 > 0:30:20health care needs.
0:30:20 > 0:30:24Do you accept radical reform has to go hand-in-hand with any increase in
0:30:24 > 0:30:28funding, because otherwise there won't ever be enough money.We had
0:30:28 > 0:30:33radical reform in 2012 and it's created many of the problems we see
0:30:33 > 0:30:41today. I think we need reform of the 1911 insurance act because in 1911
0:30:41 > 0:30:46-year-old at 50. Now you're all that 85. At 60 I will pay to reduce
0:30:46 > 0:30:50contributions for National Insurance and that 605I will pay none, despite
0:30:50 > 0:30:55the fact I'm working, is ridiculous and an insult to those of my
0:30:55 > 0:31:00children's age.Would you support that?It would be something we could
0:31:00 > 0:31:04look at. These are things which we need all get together to work out
0:31:04 > 0:31:08different solutions to. I don't think we can give an answer today in
0:31:08 > 0:31:14terms of how we reform the NHS. It's incredibly complex. What we don't
0:31:14 > 0:31:18want is organisational restructure is. What about Sarah Wollaston, who
0:31:18 > 0:31:21chairs the health select committee and suggested people over 40
0:31:21 > 0:31:27earnings that incomes should pay more.
0:31:27 > 0:31:31When we work out how that hypothecated tax works, we have to
0:31:31 > 0:31:35answer all these questions. I want to make sure it's fair. Young people
0:31:35 > 0:31:40also need the help service.We should be paying a social care tax
0:31:40 > 0:31:44and I think is that kicks in at around the age of 40. We also need
0:31:44 > 0:31:49to be looking at how we glean ideas for what the NHS should fund. At the
0:31:49 > 0:31:56moment it goes from feast to famine. I agree with Luciana, I think we
0:31:56 > 0:32:00need an independent body, clearly made up of politicians because you
0:32:00 > 0:32:07are our elected representatives, but with others. This idea that the NHS
0:32:07 > 0:32:13as a GP gets kicked around as a political football, it must stop.If
0:32:13 > 0:32:17we are going to have a hypothecated tax, we also need to consult with
0:32:17 > 0:32:21the British people.They will have to pay for their health care in some
0:32:21 > 0:32:25way so we might as well pay for it through taxation which is the
0:32:25 > 0:32:29fairest way to pay.We only have to look at the people who took to the
0:32:29 > 0:32:35streets this weekend to the NHS is in crisis. This is an important
0:32:35 > 0:32:38conversation about the medium and long-term health of the NHS. We are
0:32:38 > 0:32:42in a crisis and we urgently need the government to address it, and they
0:32:42 > 0:32:45aren't doing that.Thank you.
0:32:45 > 0:32:48Now, as I said, it's a busy week in Westminster with Brexit likely
0:32:48 > 0:32:49to be the main focus.
0:32:49 > 0:32:52Here's a rundown of the main stories over the next few days.
0:32:52 > 0:32:54Tomorrow morning the work and pensions select committee
0:32:54 > 0:32:56will give the former bosses at the construction giant
0:32:56 > 0:32:57Carillion a grilling.
0:32:57 > 0:33:00The company, which holds a large number of government contracts,
0:33:00 > 0:33:03went into liquidation last month.
0:33:03 > 0:33:06Wednesday sees Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn have their weekly
0:33:06 > 0:33:09dual at PMQs, and also as we've been hearing the Brexit Cabinet sub
0:33:09 > 0:33:11committee, set up to decide the government's negotiation
0:33:11 > 0:33:13strategy, meets to try to thrash out what they want
0:33:13 > 0:33:20the final deal to look like.
0:33:20 > 0:33:22It's such an important issue the committee meets
0:33:22 > 0:33:25again on the Thursday where the Prime Minister will hope
0:33:25 > 0:33:28an agreement can finally be reached and then on Friday MPs get
0:33:28 > 0:33:36a well-earned half-term break with the House rising for recess.
0:33:36 > 0:33:38We're joined now by Anushka Asthana of The Guardian and Sam
0:33:38 > 0:33:42Coates of The Times.
0:33:42 > 0:33:48You are braving the freezing cold weather. First of all, Anushka, what
0:33:48 > 0:33:54do you make of the reports saying that Brexiteers are close to
0:33:54 > 0:33:57challenging Theresa May for the leadership?I think they are trying
0:33:57 > 0:34:01to remind the Prime Minister that while there may not be a
0:34:01 > 0:34:04Parliamentary majority for the type of Brexit they are seeking, there
0:34:04 > 0:34:08are clearly enough Brexiteers on her backbenchers to topple her. You only
0:34:08 > 0:34:12need 48 to send letters to start a Tory leadership election. They don't
0:34:12 > 0:34:17want to do that but they are quite annoyed at the moment. If you things
0:34:17 > 0:34:21have got them really annoyed, one is Philip Hammond talking about modest
0:34:21 > 0:34:26changes after Brexit. The other is government legislation going through
0:34:26 > 0:34:30at the moment that they think leaves open the idea we could stay in a
0:34:30 > 0:34:35customs union. That is why they are starting to create a lot of noise,
0:34:35 > 0:34:39ahead of those two big war cabinets later in the week.Will this
0:34:39 > 0:34:47announcement from Number 10 or a source, say that the UK will
0:34:47 > 0:34:52categorically be outside a customs union, will that cause Brexiteers to
0:34:52 > 0:34:55take stock?I'm not sure it's a massive advance on what we thought
0:34:55 > 0:34:59was happening anyway. I think you can see the outline of some kind of
0:34:59 > 0:35:04compromise on customs that could be agreed as early as this week. You've
0:35:04 > 0:35:08got a concession from the Remainers. Philip Hammond would say I accept
0:35:08 > 0:35:11the need for Britain to strike free-trade deals in the future and
0:35:11 > 0:35:16to be enough out of the customs union to do that. But we ask the
0:35:16 > 0:35:20Brexiteers and the war Cabinet has an thing too. We want them to make
0:35:20 > 0:35:23sure we don't do things precipitously that might cause an
0:35:23 > 0:35:27economic shock in the meantime. He wants to make sure we don't pull out
0:35:27 > 0:35:30of the customs union arrangements to seem. I think you are seeing the
0:35:30 > 0:35:35outline of a compromise that will see us staying in some of the
0:35:35 > 0:35:39structures of the customs union for a little while longer and then
0:35:39 > 0:35:42Philip Hammond conceding in the end we have to come out of them but not
0:35:42 > 0:35:47for quite a while. The debate you saw last night is a bit of a
0:35:47 > 0:35:51sideshow. Everyone thought they understood it but it's what lies
0:35:51 > 0:35:57beneath that is important. Both sides will be focused on that.
0:35:57 > 0:36:00Anushka, Amber Rudd said yesterday the government won't be intimidated
0:36:00 > 0:36:04by the likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg and other Brexiteers. In the end she
0:36:04 > 0:36:09could find a path through the warring sides and hold onto being
0:36:09 > 0:36:14Prime Minister.I think if you look back to what she said in her
0:36:14 > 0:36:17Lancaster House speech which was quite significant, as Sam said, it
0:36:17 > 0:36:23wasn't quite black or white. She talked about the possibility of some
0:36:23 > 0:36:27sort of associate membership of parts of the customs union. The key,
0:36:27 > 0:36:35and this really is key and is what the Brexiteers want to hold onto, is
0:36:35 > 0:36:38that the Prime Minister said there won't be any external tariff that we
0:36:38 > 0:36:40accept. We went to be part of the common commercial policy which means
0:36:40 > 0:36:46we will be able to strike trade deals with other countries. The
0:36:46 > 0:36:49government's public position on that hasn't actually changed but there's
0:36:49 > 0:36:52a lot of scepticism around whether Treasury officials want to go
0:36:52 > 0:36:57further than that. If she sticks to what she said in the Lancaster House
0:36:57 > 0:37:00speech, perhaps they could get towards the sort of compromise plan
0:37:00 > 0:37:04is talking about.It's all about getting the Cabinet on board. Where
0:37:04 > 0:37:07is the biggest dividing line in terms of personalities within the
0:37:07 > 0:37:12Cabinet on bringing them together to have this public statement on where
0:37:12 > 0:37:17the UK's position should be?The division within the War Cabinet is
0:37:17 > 0:37:21where it's always been. Michael Gove, Boris Johnson on one side,
0:37:21 > 0:37:28Philip Hammond and Amber Rudd on the other. Michael Gove is thought by
0:37:28 > 0:37:32some in Downing Street to be a bit more emollient than Boris Johnson.
0:37:32 > 0:37:37Can I dispute the main point of the question. I'm not sure that where
0:37:37 > 0:37:41the Cabinet is is actually the biggest question we face. The
0:37:41 > 0:37:45Cabinet could come up with an agreement. We could hear cheering
0:37:45 > 0:37:49from all around us and then Europe says no. The problem with a fudge is
0:37:49 > 0:37:55I'm not sure it passes muster in Brussels. Whatever agreement they
0:37:55 > 0:37:59come to this week must then hit the cold hard reality of the
0:37:59 > 0:38:03negotiation. If you get rejected, that's where things get difficult.
0:38:03 > 0:38:06Are you expecting an announcement from Labour to clearly state that
0:38:06 > 0:38:12they would like the country to stay in a customs union with the EU to
0:38:12 > 0:38:17continue frictionless trade and avoid a hard border in Ireland?It's
0:38:17 > 0:38:21very clear that Labour needs to get their position on this set in stone
0:38:21 > 0:38:24as well. There are some disagreements. They have an away day
0:38:24 > 0:38:28planned that which some of these issues will be discussed. People
0:38:28 > 0:38:32around the leadership insist there's not going to be an absolute hard and
0:38:32 > 0:38:35fast decision coming out of that. Others in that other Cabinet say
0:38:35 > 0:38:39this is an issue they will need to get right. Part of the reason they
0:38:39 > 0:38:44need to get it right is a lot of legislation going through Parliament
0:38:44 > 0:38:48in which parties will have to put forward what is their position on
0:38:48 > 0:38:55exactly this issue. Although I do think the idea of a customs union or
0:38:55 > 0:38:59the customs union is a bit too simplistic from where the country
0:38:59 > 0:39:02will be eventually negotiating. Where Theresa May gets away with it
0:39:02 > 0:39:07so far is some might argue that she is saying she wants this close as
0:39:07 > 0:39:10possible arrangement but she also says we aren't going to meet the
0:39:10 > 0:39:14obligations the EU might demand in order to get that arrangement. As
0:39:14 > 0:39:18some have put it, a cake and eating it scenario. The question is, what
0:39:18 > 0:39:24happens if you had to come down one way or the other?I will let you
0:39:24 > 0:39:26both get warm.
0:39:26 > 0:39:29Let's pick up on some of those points with my guests.
0:39:29 > 0:39:33Luciana, it's clear where you stand on the issue of Brexit and you would
0:39:33 > 0:39:37like the Labour Party to pronounce a clear policy of staying in the
0:39:37 > 0:39:41customs union, or a customs union. If they don't, what will you and
0:39:41 > 0:39:47your colleagues do?I understand the awayday that Anushka referred to is
0:39:47 > 0:39:50coming up soon.If they don't, and there's no evidence they will
0:39:50 > 0:39:55necessarily up with a clear policy, what will you do with Chuka Umunna,
0:39:55 > 0:40:00Heidi Alexander?I want everyone to look closely at the evidence. In the
0:40:00 > 0:40:08wake of the vote we had in Parliament last week that means
0:40:08 > 0:40:12evidence is presented to the select committee, Keir Starmer wants to
0:40:12 > 0:40:17look at that evidence. I would anticipate looking at that evidence,
0:40:17 > 0:40:23that faced with what I expect to be ten years of austerity, that we will
0:40:23 > 0:40:26see some decisions made from the front bench. There are different
0:40:26 > 0:40:30views. Amongst the front bench they've got to come to a decision.
0:40:30 > 0:40:35It is for them to arrive at that decision. I think faced with the
0:40:35 > 0:40:38evidence Sir Keir Starmer wanted to see, that that's the decision they
0:40:38 > 0:40:43will arrive that.When it comes to the meaningful vote later this year,
0:40:43 > 0:40:47Labour MPs like yourself vote down a deal that includes Britain remaining
0:40:47 > 0:40:52in the customs union, what happens then? If the vote is lost by the
0:40:52 > 0:40:58government, what do you think happens?We've got obviously a
0:40:58 > 0:41:02number of months to go before that fateful take place. There's a number
0:41:02 > 0:41:05of different steps to go through. There's the committee stage which
0:41:05 > 0:41:10will be an opportunity for many MPs to contribute to. That is a long way
0:41:10 > 0:41:14off. There's an opportunity as both the opposition and the government to
0:41:14 > 0:41:18ensure we are doing the best for the country. That's what I'll be looking
0:41:18 > 0:41:22forward to.Would you expect Labour to be pulling ahead in the polls by
0:41:22 > 0:41:27now?We know that politics is very fluid. We only have to look at the
0:41:27 > 0:41:29polls at the last general election...They've been on level
0:41:29 > 0:41:34pegging for quite a long time.If we look at the polls for the 2017
0:41:34 > 0:41:38general election, the result that came out of that was different to
0:41:38 > 0:41:40what the polls told us. I don't believe anything I read in the
0:41:40 > 0:41:48polls.Do you still feel that issues that are important to voters, the
0:41:48 > 0:41:52NHS, housing, education, are being stifled by Brexit?I think Brexit
0:41:52 > 0:41:57takes over everything and our small majority doesn't help, but I think
0:41:57 > 0:42:03it's vital we get onto those issues of the NHS, skills, to social
0:42:03 > 0:42:07justice, the cost of living and of course housing and social housing.
0:42:07 > 0:42:11The government confirmed a few weeks ago that funding for 16-18
0:42:11 > 0:42:15-year-olds in colleges and sixth forms won't increase, which is a
0:42:15 > 0:42:18growing concern amongst Conservative MPs like yourself. Is it another
0:42:18 > 0:42:22time for the party, for the government, to be bowled on policy
0:42:22 > 0:42:27areas or is it too much of a risk? We need to be dramatic, radical,
0:42:27 > 0:42:35incredibly bold. We need to have a brand-new skills policy.
0:42:35 > 0:42:37brand-new skills policy. One. Automation means roughly 30% of jobs
0:42:37 > 0:42:41currently done by 16-24 -year-olds are under threat. We face the march
0:42:41 > 0:42:45of the robots. It's good the government have given an extra £500
0:42:45 > 0:42:48million for technical skills but we need to completely reform the
0:42:48 > 0:42:52offering and our higher education offering as well.Is there any
0:42:52 > 0:42:55evidence Theresa May is going to meet those challenges?She said so
0:42:55 > 0:43:00on the steps of Downing Street.That was a long time ago.It was, and I
0:43:00 > 0:43:04was inspired by what she said. Many people were. She needs to get back
0:43:04 > 0:43:10to that. There has
0:43:11 > 0:43:12to that. There has been a distraction of the majority in
0:43:12 > 0:43:15parliament and Brexit. We have to get back to the NHS skills, housing,
0:43:15 > 0:43:19the cost of living.How detrimental will it be if she doesn't?It will
0:43:19 > 0:43:23be significantly damaging. On some things the government are doing very
0:43:23 > 0:43:27well, particularly on cutting unemployment. We now have over 2.5
0:43:27 > 0:43:35million apprentices. There are some very good things going on but we
0:43:35 > 0:43:38need to show the electorate that we have a vision, that we have a
0:43:38 > 0:43:42narrative about what the Conservative Party is for, and that
0:43:42 > 0:43:47we are there offer this ladder of opportunity.How optimistic are you
0:43:47 > 0:43:51she can change her leadership style to be bold, radical and dramatic and
0:43:51 > 0:43:56do the things you've set out?I don't want her to change. I want her
0:43:56 > 0:44:00to go back to the Theresa May on the steps of Downing Street.They were
0:44:00 > 0:44:04just words.She set out a serious agenda and I wanted to implement
0:44:04 > 0:44:08that. Use that speech as a road map for Britain and come out with some
0:44:08 > 0:44:12radical solutions. It doesn't matter if we lose votes in parliament. This
0:44:12 > 0:44:17is always the fear. If the public see we are doing the right thing on
0:44:17 > 0:44:24social housing for example, and don't win a vote, it doesn't matter.
0:44:26 > 0:44:29We can then put those things in the manifesto at an election.You
0:44:29 > 0:44:31compared her policy-making style to that of a tort is, has anything
0:44:31 > 0:44:39changed?That was only a week ago. -- tort tortoise.I wanted to do
0:44:39 > 0:44:43things that are counterintuitive, to transform our Conservative Party and
0:44:43 > 0:44:47focus on those issues I mentioned. The speech where the Prime Minister
0:44:47 > 0:44:51spoke about those burning injustices she wanted to address, the gaps have
0:44:51 > 0:44:56only got wider since then. There's been so little action on those
0:44:56 > 0:45:00policy areas.Which Robert Halfon has conceded. Could a leadership
0:45:00 > 0:45:05contest clear this up?I'm utterly against opposing a sitting Prime
0:45:05 > 0:45:10Minister. I've also described her as like Zebedee from the Magic
0:45:10 > 0:45:14roundabout because she's incredibly resilient. I admire that and I think
0:45:14 > 0:45:20the public admire that.
0:45:20 > 0:45:25the public admire that. I think she deserves loyalty and support but I
0:45:25 > 0:45:31would urge her to be more radical.
0:45:36 > 0:45:38In 2013, when Michael Gove the then-Education Secretary drafted
0:45:38 > 0:45:41the new history A-Level, it was intended to provide a more
0:45:41 > 0:45:42rounded world view of the subject.
0:45:42 > 0:45:45But not everyone is convinced.
0:45:45 > 0:45:48In today's Soapbox, Rupa Huq, MP for Ealing and Central Acton,
0:45:48 > 0:45:53explains why she thinks history is being rewritten.
0:45:53 > 0:46:00GUITAR MUSIC.
0:46:00 > 0:46:04Although my schooldays long ended back in 1990,
0:46:04 > 0:46:06I have been back to school since.
0:46:06 > 0:46:10First as a parent, and now as an MP.
0:46:10 > 0:46:13I frequently do assemblies in my constituency.
0:46:13 > 0:46:17It was at one of these last week, that I discovered
0:46:17 > 0:46:21that the Conservatives are quite literally rewriting history.
0:46:21 > 0:46:25I discovered that, alarmingly, the current A-level modern British
0:46:25 > 0:46:28history curriculum is blatantly biased, bending over
0:46:28 > 0:46:34backwards to paint the Conservatives in a good light.
0:46:34 > 0:46:37No mention is made of the Blair Brown governments,
0:46:37 > 0:46:41starting with the 1997 landslide, which bequeathed us the minimum wage
0:46:41 > 0:46:47and ended child poverty and youth unemployment for a generation.
0:46:47 > 0:46:50But even if excluding that period can be explained away as being too
0:46:50 > 0:46:54recent to be history, there's the inexcusable,
0:46:54 > 0:46:57glaring blind spot of the great 1945 Labour government under
0:46:57 > 0:47:03which the welfare state and the NHS were both born.
0:47:03 > 0:47:07To understand our present and future, one must
0:47:07 > 0:47:11understand our past, and that includes the 1944
0:47:11 > 0:47:15Butler Education Act, the advent of the NHS in 1948,
0:47:15 > 0:47:17and even the expansion of John Major's PFI under
0:47:17 > 0:47:20New Labour, which all resonate with current debates
0:47:20 > 0:47:23on the school funding formula, the NHS winter crisis,
0:47:23 > 0:47:31and the collapse of Carillion.
0:47:31 > 0:47:34This is not about unduly bigging up labour, but surely credit should
0:47:34 > 0:47:37be given where credit is due, and it is dangerous to deny
0:47:37 > 0:47:38that these things ever happened.
0:47:38 > 0:47:42All major historical tides should be included,
0:47:42 > 0:47:45rather than selectively and going through cherry picked bits
0:47:45 > 0:47:48to present a partial picture, which will only result
0:47:48 > 0:47:51in brainwashing our kids.
0:47:51 > 0:47:55And Rupa Huq joins me now from Cardiff.
0:47:55 > 0:48:02Do you regard this as censure ship by the Conservative government?It
0:48:02 > 0:48:06seems that there are lots of bits missing from this new timeline
0:48:06 > 0:48:12that's been put in place since 2014, suspiciously. I've had loads of
0:48:12 > 0:48:17teachers e-mailing me since I ask that question a week ago. They said
0:48:17 > 0:48:22there is no mention of the miners strike, Orgreave is not there, the
0:48:22 > 0:48:26poll tax which brought down Thatcher merits only a small paragraph in the
0:48:26 > 0:48:34main textbook. Nothing about women, LGBT rights, apparently did number
0:48:34 > 0:48:39of women compared to men in the syllabus is one to 100.To challenge
0:48:39 > 0:48:44your claim, the Department has said that the curriculum requires
0:48:44 > 0:48:48students to build on their understanding of the past and build
0:48:48 > 0:48:54a broad and balanced course of study which means opposing views are
0:48:54 > 0:48:57considered which couldn't be achieved by ignoring a specific
0:48:57 > 0:49:02party from that period.Surely that's true. History is so broad
0:49:02 > 0:49:06that you have to be selective in any curriculum that they have done a
0:49:06 > 0:49:17syllabus which is 1930-51 and there is 51-97. It is all through the
0:49:17 > 0:49:24prism of Churchill. This hagiography. If you latch onto
0:49:24 > 0:49:27characters it can make it more interesting but this hagiography, in
0:49:27 > 0:49:32the words of a leading public school teacher from the south-west, is very
0:49:32 > 0:49:39disturbing.It cannot be the case that if the Conservatives were
0:49:39 > 0:49:42trying to rewrite history, wouldn't they be doing it all across the exam
0:49:42 > 0:49:47boards.There are now only three boards. Not like when you and I were
0:49:47 > 0:49:55at school. There is age you ate, Pearson, and OCR, OCR has the lion's
0:49:55 > 0:50:03share of the market. The Pearson has a general strike module, that one of
0:50:03 > 0:50:08the teachers wrote to me, teachers are saying they are going to down
0:50:08 > 0:50:14tools, they are so disillusioned.We have the chair of the education
0:50:14 > 0:50:18select committee. You must be horrified if there is a conspiracy
0:50:18 > 0:50:25that is fed into A-level history dates 1951-97 where the
0:50:25 > 0:50:30Conservatives dominate, is actually going to be the subject of...When I
0:50:30 > 0:50:37was at school I learned about the NHS.We are talking about now.I
0:50:37 > 0:50:41think this is a bit of an exaggeration. Some of the greatest
0:50:41 > 0:50:46events of the century were shaped by Conservatives, Winston Churchill,
0:50:46 > 0:50:51Margaret Thatcher, the first woman Prime Minister. You learned about
0:50:51 > 0:50:56why Churchill lost the election and was re-elected afterwards. We can't
0:50:56 > 0:51:00help it if some of the greatest events in the 20th century were
0:51:00 > 0:51:05shaped by Conservatives.If there is the wealth of evidence that Rupa
0:51:05 > 0:51:11Hook has set out, should your committee be looking into this?I'm
0:51:11 > 0:51:16always happy to look at things but I think there are bigger priority to
0:51:16 > 0:51:21worry about in terms of difficulties in school, in terms of education, in
0:51:21 > 0:51:26terms of alternative provision.Do you accept that? There are bigger
0:51:26 > 0:51:34issues.I think it's not mutually exclusive, a binary either raw. The
0:51:34 > 0:51:401945 election is given as an example of Churchill's wartime leadership.I
0:51:40 > 0:51:44had to write essays about why Churchill lost that election and
0:51:44 > 0:51:47about the Labour government and the introduction of the welfare state. I
0:51:47 > 0:51:54remember it very well.Is this a serious allegation? Do you have
0:51:54 > 0:51:58confidence in the syllabus of A-level history if it is being
0:51:58 > 0:52:01written in a biased way to look at the Conservatives over Labour
0:52:01 > 0:52:06achievements?I don't think the periods of history where we had a
0:52:06 > 0:52:11Labour government should be omitted. I was there when Rupa asked her
0:52:11 > 0:52:17question. I listened very closely to Nick Gibbon's response. He made no
0:52:17 > 0:52:21apology and that knowledge that essentially the curriculum is where
0:52:21 > 0:52:26it is and said it was a result of a consultation. Many consultations
0:52:26 > 0:52:31take place in government where people don't listen to all the
0:52:31 > 0:52:33contributors and therefore perhaps this is something that should be
0:52:33 > 0:52:39looked at again.Rupert, you have said that when they looked at the
0:52:39 > 0:52:431945 at league Labour government they skewed it to look at the
0:52:43 > 0:52:48achievements of Churchill as a war leader. Individual courses are
0:52:48 > 0:52:53decided by exam boards, are they complicit in this?The direction is
0:52:53 > 0:52:59set from the top. Candidates are as to identify Conservative strength
0:52:59 > 0:53:03and Labour weaknesses, that looks so lopsided.I'd like to see this but
0:53:03 > 0:53:08it's a bit of a mountain out of a molehill.You might say that from
0:53:08 > 0:53:14your perspective.The greatest events in the 20th century were
0:53:14 > 0:53:17shaped by conservative bright ministers, the first Prime Minister
0:53:17 > 0:53:21as a woman, Churchill, the wartime leader, there's a fantastic film at
0:53:21 > 0:53:29the moment. It's inevitable that these things will have problems.So
0:53:29 > 0:53:32you seem to be conceding that there is going to be a predominance of
0:53:32 > 0:53:37focus in an academic subject like modern British history on the
0:53:37 > 0:53:43Conservative achievements of the century.I was saying that
0:53:43 > 0:53:46conservatives had such air impact on public life that it's inevitable
0:53:46 > 0:53:51that people are going to study them in a big way for stuff I do not
0:53:51 > 0:53:54accept that.Labour leaders and governments made a massive
0:53:54 > 0:54:03contribution and should be included. Are you going to look at asking
0:54:03 > 0:54:07Robert Halfon's committee to look at this?He's a nice chap. I think we
0:54:07 > 0:54:15should do.And we will look at it. I will look at it. I can't have formal
0:54:15 > 0:54:19enquiry but I will look at it seriously.They laugh. Have a look
0:54:19 > 0:54:22and see what you find out.
0:54:22 > 0:54:25There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
0:54:25 > 0:54:28The question for today was what is the Labour Party
0:54:28 > 0:54:32planning to launch this summer?
0:54:32 > 0:54:34Was it Their manifesto for the next general election
0:54:34 > 0:54:39A policy paper on manhole covers
0:54:39 > 0:54:44A Blairite rival to campaign group Momentum
0:54:44 > 0:54:46or Jeremy Corbyn music festival So Luciana and Robert.
0:54:46 > 0:54:50What's the correct answer?
0:54:50 > 0:54:55Is it the festival.Yes.
0:54:55 > 0:54:57Who can forget the chants of "Oh, Jeremy Corbyn" ringing out
0:54:57 > 0:54:59across Glastonbury last year.
0:54:59 > 0:55:01As the Labour leader took to the Pyramid stage and addressed
0:55:01 > 0:55:02thousands of muddy festival goers?
0:55:02 > 0:55:06Well as the festival isn't on this year, Labour Party bosses are set
0:55:06 > 0:55:07to stage their own "JezFest" or "Corbynbury"
0:55:07 > 0:55:10in North London in June.
0:55:10 > 0:55:14They're expecting 10,000 people to attend the "Labour Live" event.
0:55:14 > 0:55:16But what use are festivals to politicians or
0:55:16 > 0:55:19politicians to festivals?
0:55:19 > 0:55:21To help me answer that question is the Labour
0:55:21 > 0:55:25activist Crispin Flintoff, founder of Stand Up for Labour,
0:55:25 > 0:55:27which has organised a series of comedy gigs across the country
0:55:27 > 0:55:30to campaign for Labour.
0:55:30 > 0:55:39Welcome to the Daily Politics. What is the aim of this festival?I don't
0:55:39 > 0:55:46know anything about this festival. Are you the right person?It's one
0:55:46 > 0:55:50of those BBC blunders.You're not the taxi driver from outside that
0:55:50 > 0:55:56has come in?I put on comedy events for the Labour Party. It's important
0:55:56 > 0:56:01that we engage people in politics because there are so few people
0:56:01 > 0:56:05getting involved.There are a lot of people getting involved in Labour
0:56:05 > 0:56:13Party politics.I still don't think there are not enough. We should have
0:56:13 > 0:56:19a million members. We should have as many Tories as they are happy with.
0:56:19 > 0:56:25How many Tories would you be happy with? Generally, in terms of
0:56:25 > 0:56:29membership.We need a lot more of those.
0:56:29 > 0:56:32membership.We need a lot more of those.To these
0:56:32 > 0:56:33membership.We need a lot more of those.To these events translate
0:56:33 > 0:56:38into votes for Jeremy Corbyn at a general election?People get
0:56:38 > 0:56:44motivated. People coming together is a very good way to get spirits up
0:56:44 > 0:56:49and people start thinking about they can stand for election, for office,
0:56:49 > 0:56:54that mushrooms out to their family and friends and communities.Is it a
0:56:54 > 0:56:59case of just preaching to the converted? Don't the people who come
0:56:59 > 0:57:03along to anything that is geared towards a political party just echo
0:57:03 > 0:57:08what you already feel and believe in?It's about raising their spirits
0:57:08 > 0:57:13and making them strong enough to talk to people who are not so sure
0:57:13 > 0:57:17about politics. You have to find events that people want to get
0:57:17 > 0:57:22involved with. The
0:57:22 > 0:57:25involved with. The had political system is very dry for people who
0:57:25 > 0:57:29are not involved in politics already. You have to put on
0:57:29 > 0:57:33alternatives. There are a lot of people out there who are despairing
0:57:33 > 0:57:37at what is happening with the country and don't feel there is any
0:57:37 > 0:57:42hope. If they got into politics, they might feel there is a way out
0:57:42 > 0:57:47of it.Are the Conservatives catching up in this sort of way of
0:57:47 > 0:57:51becoming accessible to young voters? George Freeman was talking about his
0:57:51 > 0:57:55big tent ideas festival but it doesn't seem to be nearly as
0:57:55 > 0:57:59successful as Jeremy Corbyn events. We need to do a lot more things like
0:57:59 > 0:58:13this. Most people will be looking at Love Island when Jezfest is on. I
0:58:13 > 0:58:18think it is OK as long as it doesn't become cult worship of Jeremy
0:58:18 > 0:58:24Corbyn. We need to reach out to our younger voters.Do you think you are
0:58:24 > 0:58:29going to get new voters by doing the sort of things or are they
0:58:29 > 0:58:38reinforcing members already?We have had members and nonmembers coming
0:58:38 > 0:58:42together because of shared Labour values. We don't know the exact
0:58:42 > 0:58:48details of what this festival might be but if it is going to be a thing,
0:58:48 > 0:58:52I think it should get across the country and not just north London.
0:58:52 > 0:58:54Thanks much for coming on the programme.
0:58:54 > 0:58:55That's all for today.
0:58:56 > 0:58:59I'll be here again at noon tomorrow with all the big
0:58:59 > 0:59:00political stories of the day.
0:59:00 > 0:59:01Do join me then.
0:59:01 > 0:59:03Bye-bye.