0:00:39 > 0:00:42Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:42 > 0:00:46Council tax bills will soon be hitting your door mat -
0:00:46 > 0:00:52why do 95% of councils in England say they'll be putting them up?
0:00:52 > 0:00:54As the Brexit Secretary accuses the European Union
0:00:54 > 0:00:57of "discourteous language", will the government get
0:00:57 > 0:01:00the frictionless trade with Europe that they want after Brexit if we're
0:01:00 > 0:01:02not in the customs union?
0:01:02 > 0:01:06The leader of the free world has a hair-raising experience.
0:01:06 > 0:01:11Why is being appropriately coiffured so important to some politicians?
0:01:11 > 0:01:19And has the European Parliament voted to abolish summertime?
0:01:22 > 0:01:26All that in the next hour, and with me for the duration today -
0:01:26 > 0:01:32two beautifully coiffuered guests - the Mirror's associate
0:01:32 > 0:01:34Editor, Kevin Maguire and Camilla Tominey of the Express.
0:01:34 > 0:01:35Welcome to the programme.
0:01:35 > 0:01:38First today -
0:01:38 > 0:01:41Chief EU negotiator Michel Barnier has been holding a news conference
0:01:41 > 0:01:44at the end of a week of technical talks in Brussels.
0:01:44 > 0:01:47And Brexit Cabinet discussions have been continuing in London
0:01:47 > 0:01:49as Theresa May tries to find a compromise amidst
0:01:49 > 0:01:52divisions over what kind of relationship the UK should have
0:01:52 > 0:01:53with the EU after Brexit.
0:01:53 > 0:02:00Here's what Mr Barnier had to say a few minutes ago.
0:02:00 > 0:02:07On Ireland, we focused on solutions to avoid a hard border.
0:02:07 > 0:02:15Any solution must be precise, clear and unambiguous.
0:02:15 > 0:02:23As you know, our joint report provides for three options.
0:02:24 > 0:02:26First, solving the issues on the island of Ireland
0:02:26 > 0:02:31through the future relationship.
0:02:31 > 0:02:36And this future relationship would need to avoid a hard border
0:02:36 > 0:02:41and protect north-south cooperation and the Good Friday Agreement.
0:02:41 > 0:02:46Once again, ladies and gentlemen, it is important to tell the truth.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49A UK decision to leave the single market and to leave
0:02:49 > 0:02:57the customs union would make border checks unavoidable.
0:03:00 > 0:03:05Michel Barnier. He set it out very clearly. Unless there is a UK
0:03:05 > 0:03:08decision to stay in the single market and Customs union, there will
0:03:08 > 0:03:13be border checks.And this comes after, of course, the notion that at
0:03:13 > 0:03:16the Brexit War Cabinet meetings we've had this week, Northern
0:03:16 > 0:03:19Ireland will be on the agenda and then was taken off as it's proven to
0:03:19 > 0:03:24contentious. The issue is interesting in the fact that no
0:03:24 > 0:03:29party at all seems to want to have a hard border. The UK dogs, BET you
0:03:29 > 0:03:33doesn't and neither do the Irish or Northern Irish. At the same time,
0:03:33 > 0:03:37this is a hot potato. There's a wider narrative around this. David
0:03:37 > 0:03:40Davis coming out strongly in the papers this morning saying he thinks
0:03:40 > 0:03:45Michel Barnier is being discourteous in the way the EU want to handle the
0:03:45 > 0:03:48transition talks. I think from the general public point of view,
0:03:48 > 0:03:54there's interesting polling in the week leading, only 8% support Brexit
0:03:54 > 0:03:58in name only. Generally people want the government is to get on with it,
0:03:58 > 0:04:01regardless of his massive thorny issue about Ireland. There's a sense
0:04:01 > 0:04:05of not making progress and being blocked by Sony Michel Barnier
0:04:05 > 0:04:08before we even set out into the next stage of negotiations.Visit on the
0:04:08 > 0:04:13thorny issue of Northern Ireland? Of course everyone says they don't want
0:04:13 > 0:04:15a hardboard, but people say they don't want it, and Britain would
0:04:15 > 0:04:19like to come out of the customs union. Will that be the issue that
0:04:19 > 0:04:23breaks these negotiations?It may well be. Particularly when you have
0:04:23 > 0:04:29the role of the ten DUP MPs who give Theresa May her majority in
0:04:29 > 0:04:34Westminster. It matters more than ever, but you cannot come out of the
0:04:34 > 0:04:38customs union and the single market and not have a border.They say
0:04:38 > 0:04:42there could be technical solutions, that there could be ways, once the
0:04:42 > 0:04:47trade arrangements is finalised. We don't know what that is at the
0:04:47 > 0:04:49moment. Once the trade deal is finalised, there could be ways
0:04:49 > 0:04:55across that.You could have honesty boxes, drones, electronic beams.
0:04:55 > 0:04:58They don't want to go back to border posts because that becomes very
0:04:58 > 0:05:03hard. There will be lots of creative thinking but there's still going to
0:05:03 > 0:05:07be a border. We will recreate the border by coming out of the customs
0:05:07 > 0:05:11union and the single market. There's no question of that. The DUP and
0:05:11 > 0:05:14Northern Ireland, and remember Northern Ireland voted to stay in
0:05:14 > 0:05:20the EU, the overall...But the DUP don't.No, they were on the wrong
0:05:20 > 0:05:25side of the argument. It's on the Irish Sea, so you can't have a
0:05:25 > 0:05:28specific deal for those counties and say those six counties of Ireland
0:05:28 > 0:05:33are in and the rest of the UK is out.Do you think that, on that
0:05:33 > 0:05:39issue, it may be that the Cabinet and Theresa May will be forced to
0:05:39 > 0:05:43concede some sort of customs union? They may call it something
0:05:43 > 0:05:48different, but it may be a customs union in effect beyond transition.
0:05:48 > 0:05:52The rhetoric from Downing Street dampening all the speculation in the
0:05:52 > 0:05:55papers at the weekend was saying, we will not be in any customs union.
0:05:55 > 0:06:01There was a nuance between the customs union and remaining in it
0:06:01 > 0:06:04and a customs union. They've been unequivocal. That's the only chink
0:06:04 > 0:06:10in the Lancaster house speech armour. While she is adamant about
0:06:10 > 0:06:14the union, the 12 point about the customs union is open to
0:06:14 > 0:06:16interpretation. That's why we've been seeing Philip Hammond
0:06:16 > 0:06:21freelancing on the subject in recent weeks and an adverse opinion from
0:06:21 > 0:06:26Ollie Robbins, we believe, from Downing Street.The War Cabinet is
0:06:26 > 0:06:31at war with itself. She doesn't have agreement. How can you go to the
0:06:31 > 0:06:34other 27 and Michel Barnier and say what you want when your own site is
0:06:34 > 0:06:38split?The meetings they've have this week, there hasn't been
0:06:38 > 0:06:41agreement, it hasn't been resolved because Theresa May has decided
0:06:41 > 0:06:46there will be an away day.Of course there must be. Four hours to decide
0:06:46 > 0:06:50which's end-stage doesn't seem enough time at all. It seems in
0:06:50 > 0:06:54principle that they've only met for this point of time, stuff have been
0:06:54 > 0:06:57taken off the agenda. Meanwhile, Jeremy Corbyn is tying himself in
0:06:57 > 0:07:02knots over what he has or hasn't said to Barnier about the customs
0:07:02 > 0:07:07union. Let's make no mistake. Both bottle parties are divided and an
0:07:07 > 0:07:11awayday is probably not a bad idea, although the notion of some of the
0:07:11 > 0:07:14Cabinet is doing team-building exercises, the mind boggles!Shall
0:07:14 > 0:07:19be amazed if you can get Philip Hammond and Amber Rudd to agree with
0:07:19 > 0:07:23Michael Gove and Boris Johnson. Maybe it should have been sorted out
0:07:23 > 0:07:27before Article 50.Or having been opaque in the wake that some people
0:07:27 > 0:07:30might see it, they've managed to get the first phase agreed. There is
0:07:30 > 0:07:35likely to be an agreement on transition. And they'll get headline
0:07:35 > 0:07:40agreement around a trade deal, so in the end is it as disastrous as some
0:07:40 > 0:07:46are saying?It looks troublesome. There is a self interest on the UK
0:07:46 > 0:07:50side. There is self interest on the 27. You're looking for mutual
0:07:50 > 0:07:53self-interest where you can come together. We've got where we are so
0:07:53 > 0:08:01far. One, by agreeing to the 27's timetabling. Two, paying off the £39
0:08:01 > 0:08:05billion. On issues such as Ireland, we gave the impression that there
0:08:05 > 0:08:11wouldn't be that border to get the DUP back onside. Now, that seems to
0:08:11 > 0:08:19be unrolling.So much leads up to it and it's all decided in the last few
0:08:19 > 0:08:22hours, like phase one.Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
0:08:22 > 0:08:25On that, we will move onto something different. We will of course to
0:08:25 > 0:08:28Brexit.
0:08:28 > 0:08:31Now, could your household bills soon be going up?
0:08:31 > 0:08:34A new survey suggests nearly all local authorities in England
0:08:34 > 0:08:36are planning to increase council tax from April
0:08:36 > 0:08:38as the Local Government Association says many councils are concerned
0:08:38 > 0:08:40about balancing their books.
0:08:40 > 0:08:41Of the third of councils that responded to this year's
0:08:41 > 0:08:43Local Government Finance Survey, 95% said they planned
0:08:43 > 0:08:48to raise council tax.
0:08:48 > 0:08:50Almost three quarters said they planned to increase council
0:08:50 > 0:08:55tax by more than 2.5%.
0:08:55 > 0:08:58Council tax bills can rise by up to 6% this year,
0:08:58 > 0:09:03which includes a 3% levy, or precept, to fund social care.
0:09:03 > 0:09:06However, if bills were to increase by more than 6% that
0:09:06 > 0:09:09would trigger a local referendum.
0:09:09 > 0:09:1493% of councils also said they were planning to raise fees
0:09:14 > 0:09:19for services they provide, including parking and planning.
0:09:19 > 0:09:23Councils are increasingly dependent on money they raise locally,
0:09:23 > 0:09:26rather than central grants, a move the government says
0:09:26 > 0:09:28will improve accountability.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31But Lord Porter, chairman of the Local Government Association,
0:09:31 > 0:09:34has said some authorities are "perilously close"
0:09:34 > 0:09:36to financial collapse.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38We can speak now to Ferris Cowper, a district councillor
0:09:38 > 0:09:43in East Hampshire, one of only six councils who responded to the survey
0:09:43 > 0:09:46who said they would not be increasing council tax this year.
0:09:46 > 0:09:52Also joining us is Shadow Local Government Minister Jim McMahon.
0:09:52 > 0:09:58We hope he will join us soon. He will be in Salford.
0:09:58 > 0:10:02You're not going to have to raise council tax. So in your mind, who is
0:10:02 > 0:10:08at fault for the situation that most other authorities seem to find
0:10:08 > 0:10:11themselves in? Is it counsels for not showing initiative by the
0:10:11 > 0:10:15Conservative government was lashing the bonding?I think there's a bit
0:10:15 > 0:10:19of a shared responsibility here, to be quite honest. The loss of
0:10:19 > 0:10:23government grants did come as a bit of a shock to many people. We were
0:10:23 > 0:10:27planning for this many years ago. So I think that also council leaders
0:10:27 > 0:10:30and councillors generally have had the opportunity to get ready for
0:10:30 > 0:10:34this bit earlier than they have done.What did you do?The thing we
0:10:34 > 0:10:39did was set out to do three main things to deal with the loss of
0:10:39 > 0:10:44those grants. We started on efficiency programme, not a service
0:10:44 > 0:10:47cutting programme, but keeping the services and just running them
0:10:47 > 0:10:50cheaper. Some people called efficiency is losing services, we
0:10:50 > 0:10:57don't. Manufacturing, a man found a huge number of senior managers, so
0:10:57 > 0:11:01we have halved the number of senior managers. We've also started selling
0:11:01 > 0:11:04services to other councils, and we've improved our investment
0:11:04 > 0:11:10portfolio to get better returns on that as well.Do you accept, though,
0:11:10 > 0:11:12that you have got an easier time of it than many other authorities
0:11:12 > 0:11:16because you don't have to fund social care?Adult social care is
0:11:16 > 0:11:21one of the biggest challenges. I noticed that Jeremy Hunt's
0:11:21 > 0:11:26portfolio, including adult social care...It seems only in title only.
0:11:26 > 0:11:31I think where hoping... I would hope that if you're looking at a
0:11:31 > 0:11:34restructuring of local government finance, which has to be the agenda
0:11:34 > 0:11:38here, a new way of doing all this, the central government will have to
0:11:38 > 0:11:41take some of these things which are synergistic with the health agenda.
0:11:41 > 0:11:44And you hope that's going to happen at national level. You accept that
0:11:44 > 0:11:48because you don't have responsible at for financing adult social care,
0:11:48 > 0:11:52you have an easier job.I'd love the challenge, though!That's not the
0:11:52 > 0:11:59answer to the question.It is easier, yes.Actually, the truth of
0:11:59 > 0:12:02it is that even in your area, although you're not putting up the
0:12:02 > 0:12:06council tax bills, they could go anyway because the county council
0:12:06 > 0:12:09could choose to do so.Yes, the other presetting authorities are
0:12:09 > 0:12:14very likely to put those up, but we're doing our bit.Listening to
0:12:14 > 0:12:17this and hearing some of the efficiency savings that have been
0:12:17 > 0:12:21made, do you think councils have crossed their fingers and hope
0:12:21 > 0:12:26something would come along with Siam I suspect there isn't a single local
0:12:26 > 0:12:30authority across the UK that hasn't been looking for inefficiency
0:12:30 > 0:12:35savings. The scale of the cuts in central government grants have been
0:12:35 > 0:12:41enormous.40% in some cases. You are down to statute services and social
0:12:41 > 0:12:44care is a huge red and I'm councils because people are older, needing
0:12:44 > 0:12:50more support, which is good. They've been working hard and at the same
0:12:50 > 0:12:54time haven't been allowed to put up council tax, which is great if your
0:12:54 > 0:12:57household but not great when you don't get the service. You have to
0:12:57 > 0:13:02pay for local government, I agree, but where you get those
0:13:02 > 0:13:07efficiencies, you make them. That is why you have true blue sorry, very
0:13:07 > 0:13:11wealthy. When you have Northamptonshire County Council
0:13:11 > 0:13:15close to bankruptcy the way they have ruled out almost extra two all
0:13:15 > 0:13:19extra spending.What's the solution? Do you support councils putting up
0:13:19 > 0:13:24council tax to up to potentially 6% in order to fund vital services?I
0:13:24 > 0:13:27think most people including our readers will support councils
0:13:27 > 0:13:30working more efficiently. Some are better than others. At the council
0:13:30 > 0:13:35tax has gone up by 53%. I think the statistics from the taxpayers
0:13:35 > 0:13:41Alliance suggests...Not the taxpayers Alliance!They've done the
0:13:41 > 0:13:45research. 530 council bosses are earning more than the primaries do.
0:13:45 > 0:13:50Is that right? Are you supportive of council fat cats earning 6-figure
0:13:50 > 0:13:54sums?You'll get a couple of extra bins with the billions taken out of
0:13:54 > 0:14:01local...On a sustainable basis, what do you think the answer is?
0:14:01 > 0:14:05Should it be big central government cuts...It should be the little
0:14:05 > 0:14:12person.Don't be patronising.The actual residence rather than fat cat
0:14:12 > 0:14:16bosses who are coining it in. Mrs Meghan 's once had bins changed in
0:14:16 > 0:14:22Blackpool and doesn't want to face a doubling of council tax! Which is to
0:14:22 > 0:14:29be 700 or £800, and is now 1500. That's because councils have
0:14:29 > 0:14:35expanded exponentially.Putting aside... Putting aside the issue of
0:14:35 > 0:14:39how much they're being paid, which we take your point that you think
0:14:39 > 0:14:43they are fat cats earning too much money, but year on year, how should
0:14:43 > 0:14:49and how do councils meet the gap between what they used to get from
0:14:49 > 0:14:52central government without putting up council tax? What would be your
0:14:52 > 0:14:56solution?Perhaps in the case of social care, if it isn't taken under
0:14:56 > 0:14:59the remit of the NHS, should be looking at more creative ways of
0:14:59 > 0:15:03managing the cost of social care? Social care affects one in six
0:15:03 > 0:15:08households in places -- and in places like Germany they have an
0:15:08 > 0:15:12insurance system toward against the fact you might need social care
0:15:12 > 0:15:16costs. White that's a different argument. I'm saying maybe we should
0:15:16 > 0:15:21look at creatives. What will it pick up on what Camilla said about fat
0:15:21 > 0:15:27cat pay. What you pay your chief executive Azpilicueta?
0:15:27 > 0:15:29cat pay. What you pay your chief executive120,000 fans a year in the
0:15:29 > 0:15:33public domain.Is that too much? Less than the Prime Minister.But is
0:15:33 > 0:15:42it too much?Its £60,000 for the District Council of East Hampshire.
0:15:42 > 0:15:46As do you think that is good value for money?To have someone running
0:15:46 > 0:15:52the £40 million enterprise and 60 per year is exceptional value.That
0:15:52 > 0:15:57sounds like good value. I like the idea in principle and no one in the
0:15:57 > 0:16:02public services gets paid more than the Prime Minister. If you get a big
0:16:02 > 0:16:07county council and you want a top-notch finance director, you are
0:16:07 > 0:16:09competing against financial companies that are paying far more.
0:16:09 > 0:16:13If you want some really really good, it's the market that is dictating.
0:16:13 > 0:16:19The cost of social care, 4.5 billion has been taken out. You are coming
0:16:19 > 0:16:23up with another way of paying insurers. It might be cheaper for
0:16:23 > 0:16:27your council tax to go up a bit and you pay for it collectively and then
0:16:27 > 0:16:30get cared, rather than going to a rip-off company and insurance
0:16:30 > 0:16:36company that's going to charge higher premiums are.This works well
0:16:36 > 0:16:40in Germany and other European countries.Let me bring in our other
0:16:40 > 0:16:45guest.
0:16:45 > 0:16:51Jim McMahon. I am sure you understand the issue of council tax
0:16:51 > 0:16:59going up in some authorities. Would the situation be that different
0:16:59 > 0:17:05under Labour?What we need to accept is that council tax is very
0:17:05 > 0:17:11important, but it has limitations. Property values are out of date now,
0:17:11 > 0:17:16by 27 years, but also there is little relationship between the
0:17:16 > 0:17:20property values in an area and the ability of the person to pay the
0:17:20 > 0:17:26bills. It is important but it has its limitations. Today people are
0:17:26 > 0:17:31being asked to pay more and more for what they see as less and less
0:17:31 > 0:17:35because the services everybody sees like libraries and street cleaning
0:17:35 > 0:17:42and parks and open spaces, are reduced to fund adult social care.
0:17:42 > 0:17:44Do you support broadly cancels putting up council tax to pay for
0:17:44 > 0:17:50those services?In the current context the councils have no choice.
0:17:50 > 0:17:55The government was asked to go away and find the money for social care
0:17:55 > 0:17:58and they failed. The Secretary of State failed to find any new money
0:17:58 > 0:18:04when he came to the dispatch box today. They are finding money from
0:18:04 > 0:18:08the back of the couch and our social care services are in crisis.
0:18:08 > 0:18:13Councils have no choice but to put up council tax because they need to
0:18:13 > 0:18:18fund those services. Councils have 1200 statutory obligations on them
0:18:18 > 0:18:22and they have to meet them and they have no choice. It is a horrible
0:18:22 > 0:18:27situation for them.You say it would be different under Labour because
0:18:27 > 0:18:31they have a different tax system related to property. The
0:18:31 > 0:18:35conservative say and that tax system that you set out in the manifesto
0:18:35 > 0:18:40more people would pay more because you would replace council tax with
0:18:40 > 0:18:48land value tax. The average family home could go up from £1185 to £3837
0:18:48 > 0:18:53a year, an increase of 124%. Do you accept there would be many more
0:18:53 > 0:18:59people paying higher council tax in your proposals?We are looking at a
0:18:59 > 0:19:04wider range of taxation and income streams to fund local government.
0:19:04 > 0:19:10You cannot continue to rely...Do you accept and your new system in
0:19:10 > 0:19:13order to guarantee that stream of funding that more people in bigger
0:19:13 > 0:19:17properties, rightly or wrongly, would be paying more?That detail
0:19:17 > 0:19:22would need to be worked out. We need to agree the right balance between
0:19:22 > 0:19:27tax raised in a local context through council tax or business
0:19:27 > 0:19:32rates, what is the demand for services? And then there is general
0:19:32 > 0:19:38taxation. Most people say it should not be the case that your ability to
0:19:38 > 0:19:43get social care in old age, or your ability to get children help are
0:19:43 > 0:19:52dependent on the values in your area. It will continue to put at
0:19:52 > 0:19:57risk children and people in areas where you have not got that value.
0:19:57 > 0:20:00Would you support the redrawing of council tax along a different sort
0:20:00 > 0:20:07of property revaluation M I think we have to think much wider.To keep on
0:20:07 > 0:20:13banging on about what kind of tax we are going to levy and how it will be
0:20:13 > 0:20:17structured, it is such old-fashioned thinking. We have to think outside
0:20:17 > 0:20:21the box. The whole method by which the public sector is financed has to
0:20:21 > 0:20:26be thought through. The capability of the public sector to generate
0:20:26 > 0:20:31income from other sources is important, but with services like
0:20:31 > 0:20:35adult social care and education we keep looking at making it bigger and
0:20:35 > 0:20:40bigger and some things work better if you make them smaller. We talk
0:20:40 > 0:20:42about devolution, I am not sure what the Labour Party policies on that
0:20:42 > 0:20:51are. But evolving it down to lower levels so that we can execute
0:20:51 > 0:20:56services like social and care with a more precise focus on what is needed
0:20:56 > 0:21:01and save money that way.The government has said funding will be
0:21:01 > 0:21:04replaced by business rates income in the future. Will that sort the
0:21:04 > 0:21:11problem?Even with that it is still not enough. Even if we went for a
0:21:11 > 0:21:15re-evaluation, you would see a huge geographical displacement where
0:21:15 > 0:21:19London and the south-east would see rapid increases because the values
0:21:19 > 0:21:23have gone up and stagnation in other areas where you have not seen that
0:21:23 > 0:21:26increase. Unless you have a new method of redistribution, you will
0:21:26 > 0:21:34not get that. In London there are just over 10 million over
0:21:34 > 0:21:4065-year-olds and it will be 17.3 by 20 35. People are living longer and
0:21:40 > 0:21:44in old age they deserve the care they need and that should be funded
0:21:44 > 0:21:48based on need and not on property values in a given area. You have to
0:21:48 > 0:21:53have that balance right.Jim McMahon, thank you.
0:21:53 > 0:21:55Jim McMahon, thank you.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58Now, MPs are rarely houshold names but is one conservative
0:21:58 > 0:22:00backbencher managing to break through from relative
0:22:00 > 0:22:03obscurity of the backbenches?
0:22:03 > 0:22:06Jacob Rees Mogg is rarely off our tellies, often trending
0:22:06 > 0:22:09on social media and is a hit with the tory grassroots.
0:22:09 > 0:22:12He also leads the influential European Research Group
0:22:12 > 0:22:15that is thought to number as many as 70 Conservative MPs.
0:22:15 > 0:22:18But what do the public make of a man who is spoken
0:22:18 > 0:22:21of as future Tory Leader?
0:22:21 > 0:22:24Emma Vardy took that oh-so-unscientific barometer
0:22:24 > 0:22:30of public opinion, the moodbox, to west London.
0:22:31 > 0:22:34The MP of this constituency, Boris Johnson, is well known for making
0:22:34 > 0:22:39his views clear on how he believes we should be getting out of Europe.
0:22:39 > 0:22:42But what do voters here make of the new darling
0:22:42 > 0:22:45of the Eurosceptics, Jacob Rees-Mogg?
0:22:45 > 0:22:48We're here to ask people if he's a hero or a villain.
0:22:48 > 0:22:51I just think he's a little bit upper-class for us.
0:22:51 > 0:22:54I actually quite like him for being so outspoken and
0:22:54 > 0:22:57actually passionate about what he believes in.
0:22:57 > 0:23:00I don't necessarily believe in everything he says, but I
0:23:00 > 0:23:03think you need somebody like that to put an argument
0:23:03 > 0:23:05across and actually stand up for your convictions, so I
0:23:05 > 0:23:07think he's quite a hero.
0:23:07 > 0:23:09Why do you think he's so divisive?
0:23:09 > 0:23:11I think it's probably because of background and
0:23:11 > 0:23:15culture.
0:23:15 > 0:23:17I think he is quite an intelligent man.
0:23:17 > 0:23:19I think he's quite open to discussing.
0:23:19 > 0:23:21He's voting against everything!
0:23:21 > 0:23:23Like disability people, their living.
0:23:23 > 0:23:25Brexit, all that, as well.
0:23:25 > 0:23:26# I need a hero!#
0:23:26 > 0:23:29Who is it?
0:23:29 > 0:23:37Tory MP.
0:23:39 > 0:23:41Maybe she needs to be, you know, a little bit stronger.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43Theresa May?
0:23:43 > 0:23:57Yeah, she needs to be, a little bit stronger and,
0:23:57 > 0:24:00her case to strengthen her up a bit, that must be a good thing.
0:24:00 > 0:24:01I don't agree with his views.
0:24:01 > 0:24:04He - if I've got the right man, I think he is
0:24:04 > 0:24:05against abortion?
0:24:05 > 0:24:09How dare he decide!
0:24:09 > 0:24:13Wonderful man, you say.
0:24:13 > 0:24:15Yeah, fantastic.
0:24:15 > 0:24:17Do you recognise the man on the front of that box?
0:24:17 > 0:24:18OK, I may have.
0:24:18 > 0:24:23He doesn't exactly seem to be a household name.
0:24:23 > 0:24:29It's quite resonating, that.
0:24:29 > 0:24:31He's not the type of politician that I would...
0:24:31 > 0:24:32I couldn't trust him.
0:24:32 > 0:24:34I feel he's basically a villain because he's a Tory.
0:24:34 > 0:24:36That T-shirt's so last season.
0:24:36 > 0:24:39He may be the man of the moment for some Eurosceptics,
0:24:39 > 0:24:42but here in Uxbridge, most people told us Jacob Rees-Mogg is a
0:24:42 > 0:24:48villain.
0:24:48 > 0:24:54The villain of the peace for the mood box. Has he cut through,
0:24:54 > 0:24:59Camilla?Definitely. If you take yourself out of this bubble and
0:24:59 > 0:25:03listen to the LBC on the radio, people are literally phoning in
0:25:03 > 0:25:07every five minutes and they want Jacob Rees Mogg for leader. If that
0:25:07 > 0:25:12translates on a wider UK level I do not know, but he has gone from being
0:25:12 > 0:25:15a rather eccentric backbencher to someone who is influential in Brexit
0:25:15 > 0:25:21because of being the chairman of the European research group.Has he
0:25:21 > 0:25:25superseded Boris Johnson as the darling of the grassroots Tories?
0:25:25 > 0:25:29Absolutely. You saw that at the Conservative Party conference in
0:25:29 > 0:25:35Manchester. Ruth Davidson and he seemed much more popular. In the way
0:25:35 > 0:25:40he gets an easier ride because he is not held to account where Boris
0:25:40 > 0:25:45Johnson would be as Foreign Secretary. Although he lost that
0:25:45 > 0:25:49poll, the majority of people were against, very few Leticia 's would
0:25:49 > 0:25:55get more than 50%. In a general election you can get 42% and win, so
0:25:55 > 0:26:01he did quite well.In terms of people thinking he is a villain is
0:26:01 > 0:26:06that because behind that all too polite veneer there is a much steely
0:26:06 > 0:26:14and less likeable character behind? Yes.I know him relatively well. On
0:26:14 > 0:26:18a personal level he is a lovely chap.But what about the views he
0:26:18 > 0:26:24holds?He is a catholic and a staunch catholic and pro-life and
0:26:24 > 0:26:28anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage. That for the left is classed as
0:26:28 > 0:26:32extremist views. But we can apparently labelled Christian views
0:26:32 > 0:26:36extremist but not anyone else's views without being labelled racist.
0:26:36 > 0:26:40The more people get to know him and his views, the less they were like
0:26:40 > 0:26:45him. He is a character, no question. You can imagine him with a monocle
0:26:45 > 0:26:49coming from the 18th century. On abortion many people do not like
0:26:49 > 0:26:54that. You do not have to be gay to think gay marriage is a good thing.
0:26:54 > 0:26:59If you do not believe in gay marriage, do not marry a gay person.
0:26:59 > 0:27:05Let's not characterise Christian beliefs as ray bid.That is wrong.
0:27:05 > 0:27:08People do not like people interfering in their own lives.
0:27:08 > 0:27:14Shall we take the two MPs...I think some people who do not agree with
0:27:14 > 0:27:21him look at him and by the courage of his convictions.Anna Soubry and
0:27:21 > 0:27:24Justine Greening said it would be a stretch to stay in the party if he
0:27:24 > 0:27:36became leader. Anna Soubry thinks he should be flying out.Anna Soubry is
0:27:36 > 0:27:41rather marginalised. She has very personally attacked Jacob Rees Mogg.
0:27:41 > 0:27:45He is a good person and a committed politician and people can see that.
0:27:45 > 0:27:52Does he want to be leader?He said this week he did not and used the
0:27:52 > 0:27:56excuses of having six children. He has got to be ambitious. He has not
0:27:56 > 0:28:03got into politics to be a backbench MP. He has taken on the role as the
0:28:03 > 0:28:07voice of the Brexit backbenchers, the European research group. He is
0:28:07 > 0:28:11very ambitious. I met him before he was an MP. I wrote a few things he
0:28:11 > 0:28:16did not like anti-invited me to a club to have dinner to pop me round.
0:28:16 > 0:28:22He is ambitious. He became the head of this European research group. How
0:28:22 > 0:28:28influential is that group?Bus fleet had a look into who is a member of
0:28:28 > 0:28:35it and it is touted it only involves about 35 MPs. I think it is more
0:28:35 > 0:28:41like 75-100.We think 70.We interviewed him when he got the
0:28:41 > 0:28:45chairmanship and asked if it was right that it was 100 and he said it
0:28:45 > 0:28:48was fair. Increasingly they are putting pressure on Theresa May and
0:28:48 > 0:28:55to be fair to Jacob Rees Mogg, he has put more on them in the past few
0:28:55 > 0:29:01weeks that anyone has done recently. What about his authenticity? Does
0:29:01 > 0:29:06that make him appeal to certain sections in the Tory party and even
0:29:06 > 0:29:12admired by those who do not like him?That is right. He says what he
0:29:12 > 0:29:16thinks, whether you like it or not. He is on the backbenches and can do
0:29:16 > 0:29:22that.People do like that, but that does not mean when push comes to
0:29:22 > 0:29:25shove, they are thinking about what is best for them in the polling
0:29:25 > 0:29:30booth and they might not vote for somebody from the 18th century.
0:29:30 > 0:29:33booth and they might not vote for somebody from the 18th century.
0:29:33 > 0:29:35Now, why is hair so important to some politicians?
0:29:35 > 0:29:38Donald Trump had a hair raising experience the other day that
0:29:38 > 0:29:40threatened to reveal the secrets of his blonde mane as he
0:29:40 > 0:29:42boarded Air Force One.
0:29:42 > 0:29:44And President Trump isn't the first and won't be the last politician
0:29:44 > 0:29:47to attach rather a lot of importance to his hairdo.
0:29:47 > 0:29:49# Hey, girl, what you doing over there?
0:29:49 > 0:29:51# Can't you see, I'm spraying my hair?
0:29:51 > 0:29:53# Baby, baby.
0:29:53 > 0:29:57# Well, Mamma told me not to do this.
0:29:57 > 0:29:59# Well, if I don't I'm gonna lose it.
0:29:59 > 0:30:07# Gimme, gimme control, it's got to stand on its own.
0:30:08 > 0:30:11# When the band is playing loud and fast.
0:30:11 > 0:30:14That was very poor, it was Duncan Smith's hair.
0:30:14 > 0:30:18# What a gas.
0:30:18 > 0:30:21# I got an inspiration doing that hairspray,
0:30:21 > 0:30:24the love of the nation.
0:30:24 > 0:30:32# When the band is playing loud and fast...
0:30:34 > 0:30:35Conservative MP Michael Fabricant there.
0:30:35 > 0:30:36Conservative MP Michael Fabricant there.
0:30:36 > 0:30:38And we're joined now by the one of the nation's top
0:30:38 > 0:30:45hairdressers, Nicky Clarke.
0:30:45 > 0:30:51It's almost like origami! Clearly, he has an issue with the loss of
0:30:51 > 0:30:56some hair. He's worked out this kind of very elaborate comb over that
0:30:56 > 0:31:01isn't like the usual comb over that I used to see where someone has sort
0:31:01 > 0:31:06of gone from year to year. His is all quiffs and whatever.It's
0:31:06 > 0:31:11complicated.Yeah, is held down with an awful lot of hairspray, which is
0:31:11 > 0:31:16why we've seen the gust of wind has...Wing is an impediment, I have
0:31:16 > 0:31:21to say. Even though I don't necessarily have an origami style
0:31:21 > 0:31:23hairdo, outside, reporting, it's difficult to control. What do you
0:31:23 > 0:31:28suggest in these moments for public exposure if you have a hairdo like
0:31:28 > 0:31:33Mr Trump?Where possible, work out the wind direction! It literally is
0:31:33 > 0:31:37like having a wind machine coming from the wrong way. We've seen it
0:31:37 > 0:31:41with other presenters, as well.Hair to politicians is important, isn't
0:31:41 > 0:31:46it?It is but not necessarily in the way one would think because the
0:31:46 > 0:31:51whole idea of this power hairdo is not necessary. In order to be really
0:31:51 > 0:31:57kind of perceived as quite honest and real, you almost need to look
0:31:57 > 0:32:01like you haven't tried too hard. I think that's probably works with
0:32:01 > 0:32:06hair and works with the way one dresses, etc.Back in the day we
0:32:06 > 0:32:09used to call it a Bobby Charlton comb over. If you had him in your
0:32:09 > 0:32:14chair, what would you say? Would you say could it short?That's the
0:32:14 > 0:32:18interesting thing. If there isn't that much hair, it's very easy for
0:32:18 > 0:32:22people to say, you're losing it, let's put it all off. But it would
0:32:22 > 0:32:26change dramatically the way he looks. I think that's quite a hard
0:32:26 > 0:32:31thing for somebody to actually do. Also, people have to feel
0:32:31 > 0:32:35comfortable and politicians have to feel comfortable with the hairstyle.
0:32:35 > 0:32:39It can be that way. We've seen it with Prince William where he's
0:32:39 > 0:32:44embraced the idea.He had a number-1 shave.He did, but it wasn't too
0:32:44 > 0:32:48different in terms of what people were seeing already.But there is an
0:32:48 > 0:32:51obsession with covering up any sort of thinning of the hair. David was
0:32:51 > 0:32:58accused of those shots during Prime Minister's Questions in the House of
0:32:58 > 0:33:01Commons, where you might have been able to see a thinning. Does that
0:33:01 > 0:33:05matter?How would the public react if he had gone off and had one of
0:33:05 > 0:33:11the many really, really great treatments now that you would never
0:33:11 > 0:33:17know? You would never know, trust me.It's interesting that if he were
0:33:17 > 0:33:21a woman, we wouldn't be talking like this. If a woman had thinning hair.
0:33:21 > 0:33:25Women are really sympathetic with men losing their hair. I remember
0:33:25 > 0:33:28reading a startling survey suggesting women would rather lose a
0:33:28 > 0:33:31breast than lose their hair because it's so integral. I think people
0:33:31 > 0:33:35look at men who lose their hair. Someone like Wayne Rooney, there was
0:33:35 > 0:33:39huge sympathy for him at such a young age to have lost all his hair.
0:33:39 > 0:33:43He went for the transplant. Obviously the Donald is a figure of
0:33:43 > 0:33:48ridicule but I found it interesting in the Piers Morgan interview, where
0:33:48 > 0:33:52he's poked fun at himself and say he was hanging on in there and took a
0:33:52 > 0:33:57bit of mockery about it because clearly it's such a talking point.
0:33:57 > 0:34:00He has done that before, he's actually said that maybe when he got
0:34:00 > 0:34:04into office that he would shave it off, maybe one of those he hasn't
0:34:04 > 0:34:11quite fulfilled! But, you know, and I think recently we saw the fact
0:34:11 > 0:34:17that he was on medication in terms of the scalp. It's clearly very
0:34:17 > 0:34:24sensitive.What about a bold Prime Minister? Mail, probably! Do you
0:34:24 > 0:34:27think that's could ever be possible? I don't think it has anything to do
0:34:27 > 0:34:32with it. You're right they would be mocked in the beginning, but I think
0:34:32 > 0:34:37once you see those... Green Churchill didn't do too badly.On
0:34:37 > 0:34:41that, we're going to finish. Thank you, Nicky Clarke.
0:34:41 > 0:34:44For the next half an hour we're going to be focusing on Europe.
0:34:44 > 0:34:46We'll be discussing Brexit of course and, as winter bites
0:34:46 > 0:34:48across the continent, a proposal to abolish summer time.
0:34:48 > 0:34:51First, though, here's our guide to the latest from Europe
0:34:51 > 0:34:54in just 60 seconds.
0:34:54 > 0:34:57Turns out it's not just the Brits who like to talk about the weather.
0:34:57 > 0:34:59Much of Europe has faced freezing temperatures,
0:34:59 > 0:35:00with Parisians even skiing down
0:35:00 > 0:35:08Montmartre and snowfall shutting down the Eiffel Tower.
0:35:08 > 0:35:11Frosty relations seem to have thawed in Germany as the country looks set
0:35:11 > 0:35:13to emerge from months of political deepfreeze with Angela Merkel's
0:35:13 > 0:35:16conservatives finally agreeing a coalition deal
0:35:16 > 0:35:17with the centre-left Social Democrats.
0:35:17 > 0:35:20The European Parliament voted against proposals
0:35:20 > 0:35:27to create a batch of pan-European MEPs that would have allowed a vote
0:35:27 > 0:35:30to create a batch of pan-European MEPs that would have allowed a voter
0:35:30 > 0:35:33in, say, Finland or Spain to be represented by the same MEP,
0:35:33 > 0:35:35delivering a blow to Emmanuel Macron's plans to transform EU
0:35:35 > 0:35:36democracy.
0:35:36 > 0:35:39The European Parliament also voted to remove one of its vice
0:35:39 > 0:35:40presidents,
0:35:40 > 0:35:42Ryszard Czarnecki, after he sparked outrage by comparing a
0:35:42 > 0:35:46fellow Polish MEP to a Nazi collaborator.
0:35:46 > 0:35:48European Commission bigwig Jean-Claude Juncker on the other
0:35:48 > 0:35:50hand was clearly feeling chummy when he ruffled the hair
0:35:50 > 0:35:52of his chief Brexit negotiator Guy Verhofstadt
0:35:52 > 0:35:54ahead of a Strasbourg debate on the future of Europe.
0:35:54 > 0:36:01"Gerroff, Jean-Claude!"
0:36:02 > 0:36:06Right, let's talk about Germany and the coalition that may or may not be
0:36:06 > 0:36:10secured. What do you think will happen?I think it will be but she's
0:36:10 > 0:36:15given a lot of ground. The SPD to do particularly well in the election
0:36:15 > 0:36:19and are extracting their prize. She wasn't what she was. She still
0:36:19 > 0:36:23Chancellor but not as commanding. All political careers have to end in
0:36:23 > 0:36:25failure at some time and you're shuffled off and you can feel she's
0:36:25 > 0:36:33in a much later stage. I wouldn't say write her off, she's still...
0:36:33 > 0:36:37The polls say she's in a relatively strong position.Rather head-on the
0:36:37 > 0:36:43party, but she's not as strong as she was. It will still be Macron in
0:36:43 > 0:36:47France and her in Germany calling the main shots. We'll know that when
0:36:47 > 0:36:52they doing the negotiations over Brexit.If the coalition does go
0:36:52 > 0:36:57ahead and the members have to vote on it, where does it leave the
0:36:57 > 0:37:06alternative for direction and -- the AFD, that secured many seats in the
0:37:06 > 0:37:13elections?It leaves them knocking on the door and Angela Merkel has
0:37:13 > 0:37:16had a wake-up call that some of her policies have not been popular. It's
0:37:16 > 0:37:22a massive concession that they've lost the finance ministry to the
0:37:22 > 0:37:26coalition partners. Looking forward to Brexit, I was thinking
0:37:26 > 0:37:29psychologically, will Angela Merkel, having gone through this enormous
0:37:29 > 0:37:32trouble to try to secure an agreement, that she is compromised
0:37:32 > 0:37:36so much that she's going to get tough on the UK when it comes to the
0:37:36 > 0:37:41EU? Who knows what her state of mind is. There was irony at her having to
0:37:41 > 0:37:45go at Theresa May for not making her mind when she herself is in this
0:37:45 > 0:37:51hugely precarious position.Germany often goes through months of
0:37:51 > 0:37:55decision-making. It is unusual to go on for this long. And also to
0:37:55 > 0:37:59struggle in the way that she has in order to try to secure a coalition.
0:37:59 > 0:38:05As it weakened Germany's position more broadly in the EU?I'm not sure
0:38:05 > 0:38:08it has. Germany is such an industrial economic powerhouse, such
0:38:08 > 0:38:12a large country. Their electoral system, the additional member
0:38:12 > 0:38:17system, they are one of the countries imposed it after the
0:38:17 > 0:38:21Second World War and it works towards coalitions. It's just who is
0:38:21 > 0:38:27in the coalition. It's taken longer than before. It took some time then
0:38:27 > 0:38:30anyway. The Germans work these things through, but you feel that
0:38:30 > 0:38:38she herself isn't a commanding figure, but I think compared to
0:38:38 > 0:38:43Theresa May, Theresa May would love to be in Merkel's position.They are
0:38:43 > 0:38:46both from Conservative background, both have religious fervour about
0:38:46 > 0:38:52them. About the same sort of figure in terms of being isolated on the
0:38:52 > 0:38:55world stage. It's interesting. Maybe they should get together over a
0:38:55 > 0:39:02copy.On that, we'll move on!
0:39:02 > 0:39:06So, the second stage of Brexit negotiations with the EU have
0:39:06 > 0:39:08begun with talks moving onto the transition stage.
0:39:08 > 0:39:10On Sunday the government confirmed that "we are categorically
0:39:10 > 0:39:13leaving the customs union" and "it is not our policy to stay
0:39:13 > 0:39:17in a customs union."
0:39:17 > 0:39:21On Monday Chief EU negotiator, Michel Barnier, responded by saying
0:39:21 > 0:39:23that "barriers to trade and goods and services are unavoidable".
0:39:23 > 0:39:31Adding that "the time has come to make a choice".
0:39:33 > 0:39:34It's unclear whether the UK will stay
0:39:34 > 0:39:37in the customs union and the single market during any transition period.
0:39:37 > 0:39:39A leaked EU draft of the Withdrawal Agreement suggested
0:39:39 > 0:39:42that UK's access to the single market would be restricted
0:39:42 > 0:39:48during the transition phase if there is a dispute after Brexit.
0:39:48 > 0:39:50Brexit Secretary David Davis accused the EU of using "discourteous
0:39:50 > 0:39:52language" in the document and Brexiteers claim that continued
0:39:52 > 0:39:55membership of the customs union and Single Market would render
0:39:55 > 0:40:00Britain a "vassal state".
0:40:00 > 0:40:03Remainers and some business groups have called for urgent action
0:40:03 > 0:40:04from government to address the uncertainty with
0:40:04 > 0:40:06the British Chambers of Commerce saying this week
0:40:06 > 0:40:13that their "patience is wearing thin".
0:40:13 > 0:40:15We're joined now from Amsterdam by the Dutch MEP Paul Tang,
0:40:15 > 0:40:18who earlier this week described Theresa May's brexit strategy
0:40:18 > 0:40:24as "stupidity", and from Brussels by the Cosnervative MEP Dan Dalton.
0:40:24 > 0:40:30Welcome to both of you. Paul Tang first of all, do you regret calling
0:40:30 > 0:40:36Theresa May's strategy on Brexit stupidity?
0:40:36 > 0:40:46stupidity?Well, no. I still think it's stupid. There are huge problems
0:40:46 > 0:40:51with exiting not the EU but the customs union. The customs union
0:40:51 > 0:40:57will lead to a hard border. A hard border between Northern Ireland and
0:40:57 > 0:41:04Ireland and that has been an issue before. Moreover, it will hamper the
0:41:04 > 0:41:09trade and transport of goods will stop it will take a big swing at the
0:41:09 > 0:41:16factories in England. It will hit the blue-collar workers that still
0:41:16 > 0:41:19work in factories. They are the ones that pay and I think it's stupid
0:41:19 > 0:41:24that they are the ones to pay for these ideological choices.What was
0:41:24 > 0:41:27your response to hearing that language being used about the
0:41:27 > 0:41:30strategy? And do you think the Conservative government should keep
0:41:30 > 0:41:36some sort of customs union relationship on the table?Well, no,
0:41:36 > 0:41:39I think there's a misunderstanding about the customs union because it
0:41:39 > 0:41:42is often portrayed as if staying in the customs union when you leave the
0:41:42 > 0:41:47EU is the status quo. It's not. It would mean that the date we left the
0:41:47 > 0:41:51EU but stayed in the customs union, we would lose trade access to all
0:41:51 > 0:41:56that the EU has done trade with around the world, in addition to not
0:41:56 > 0:41:59been given to do trade deals ourselves. Staying in the customs
0:41:59 > 0:42:03union means and EU only trade policy. We would have no
0:42:03 > 0:42:06preferential agreement with any other country and wouldn't be able
0:42:06 > 0:42:09to get one. The only option for the UK, frankly, is to leave the customs
0:42:09 > 0:42:13union. Despite the fact there are troubles about it it really is the
0:42:13 > 0:42:18only option.Do you agree with that, Paul Tang, that we would lose access
0:42:18 > 0:42:21to any third country agreements made with the EU? We would be a vassal
0:42:21 > 0:42:29state?No, because I think the new trade agreements are not about the
0:42:29 > 0:42:32trade and transporting goods. They are about services. Much more
0:42:32 > 0:42:37important in growing part of the economy. This is what is at stake
0:42:37 > 0:42:42for the future relationship. I think Great Britain, after exiting the EU,
0:42:42 > 0:42:48can make trade agreements especially on services. Coming back one moment,
0:42:48 > 0:42:53we think that Turkey and the EU are not best friends, right? But Turkey
0:42:53 > 0:42:58is still part of the customs union and that's an economic reason for
0:42:58 > 0:43:05that. Because this is a way to trade and transport goods.Dan, is it your
0:43:05 > 0:43:08understanding that Britain remains in the customs union during the
0:43:08 > 0:43:15transition period?It hasn't been fully discussed. The government has
0:43:15 > 0:43:19certainly said it needs to address the issue I just talked about,
0:43:19 > 0:43:24losing access to third country for our expert.Ayew is also saying,
0:43:24 > 0:43:26like the International Trade Minister, that the government still
0:43:26 > 0:43:30doesn't have a position on whether Britain stays in the customs union,
0:43:30 > 0:43:33despite the fact that David Davis has said we will remain on the same
0:43:33 > 0:43:40terms during that implementation period?I figured sort of answer the
0:43:40 > 0:43:44question yourself.Can you say it for us? Will we stay in the customs
0:43:44 > 0:43:47union with cyan we will stay on the same terms as currently, but need to
0:43:47 > 0:43:53address this issuewhich is the issue we lose access to our markets
0:43:53 > 0:43:57with third countries which have done deals with the EU. That is the issue
0:43:57 > 0:44:00David Davies is trying to address and needs to be addressed in
0:44:00 > 0:44:03negotiations. If we get that, I suspect we will stay in for the
0:44:03 > 0:44:07transition.So the position... I take your point that this is a
0:44:07 > 0:44:10negotiation. It hasn't been cleared as to whether Britain will have
0:44:10 > 0:44:14access to those countries with agreements that have been made with
0:44:14 > 0:44:17the EU, but is it your understanding, just to clarify, that
0:44:17 > 0:44:20the British government's position during the transition is that
0:44:20 > 0:44:25Britain would remain in the customs union?I'm not a spokesman for the
0:44:25 > 0:44:29British government. My understanding is, if we can address this issue
0:44:29 > 0:44:34with regard to those third countries and the ability to do our own trade
0:44:34 > 0:44:38deals, as well, as I understand it, the government is open to staying in
0:44:38 > 0:44:42for that period, providing those provisos are met.Paul Tang, isn't
0:44:42 > 0:44:45that the point? This is a negotiation. Whatever has been said
0:44:45 > 0:44:50by Michel Barnier when he says the decision that the UK's going to
0:44:50 > 0:44:55leave the EU single market and it will mean border checks at the Irish
0:44:55 > 0:45:02frontier, it's his negotiating position. It doesn't mean it back.
0:45:04 > 0:45:10No, I would say it is logic.I have not seen the alternative for the
0:45:10 > 0:45:14border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. I am not sure if you have
0:45:14 > 0:45:18heard it, I have not heard it. The customs union is the option on the
0:45:18 > 0:45:24table and I would not throw that option awake if I was Great Britain.
0:45:24 > 0:45:27It is not just a matter of negotiation, it is a matter of
0:45:27 > 0:45:35logic. By the way just take a look at the map. You can try to agree new
0:45:35 > 0:45:41trade agreements, but let's face it UK and the EU are pretty close
0:45:41 > 0:45:45geographically and we are logical trading partners. The first priority
0:45:45 > 0:45:51should be to find a trade agreement with the EU to protect jobs.You
0:45:51 > 0:45:55said that you are not a spokesperson for the British Government. Are you
0:45:55 > 0:46:00happy with the government's negotiating position?The government
0:46:00 > 0:46:06has been clear from the word go. Your answer leads me to believe that
0:46:06 > 0:46:09the government has not been clear because you are not sure what the
0:46:09 > 0:46:15position is.I am very clear what the position is, I am not
0:46:15 > 0:46:20representing the British Government, I am a Conservative MEP. I am not
0:46:20 > 0:46:24privy to the negotiations. The government's position has been we
0:46:24 > 0:46:28would leave the single market and the customs union and negotiate
0:46:28 > 0:46:35frictionless trade if possible for the future with the EU.Is it right
0:46:35 > 0:46:39to use language that looks as if Britain will be punished if the UK
0:46:39 > 0:46:43does not stick to the letter of the transition agreement, that somehow
0:46:43 > 0:46:48restrictions will be placed on Britain in terms of access to the
0:46:48 > 0:46:54single market? Does that help smooth the way to successful negotiations?
0:46:54 > 0:47:02Know, normally it does not. I know how words from Michel Barnier are
0:47:02 > 0:47:07perceived in the UK. That is unfortunate. It is also in the
0:47:07 > 0:47:13perception I would say. I do not think the EU is threatening, but it
0:47:13 > 0:47:17is pointing out the options that are on the table. I do not think the
0:47:17 > 0:47:21British Government has been clear on that, I would love it to be clear.
0:47:21 > 0:47:26It never ceases to amaze me that the British Government seems more
0:47:26 > 0:47:31divided than the 27 other states. You say that but does Michel Barnier
0:47:31 > 0:47:37now speak for the entire European Union? We have got you back. Can you
0:47:37 > 0:47:46still hear me? Yes, I can hear you. We lost you momentarily. You say
0:47:46 > 0:47:51Britain is more divided than the EU 27, but does Michel Barnier speak
0:47:51 > 0:47:57for the Netherlands in terms of the draft EU text? Can we really imagine
0:47:57 > 0:48:01a state where the Netherlands would want to put up barriers to trade
0:48:01 > 0:48:07with the UK? They do not want to make it more difficult, do they?
0:48:07 > 0:48:11Know, and I think there will be differences but they have not been
0:48:11 > 0:48:15exploited by the British Government. I expect there to be differences.
0:48:15 > 0:48:21Where you do not see the difference is you cannot cherry pick. That is
0:48:21 > 0:48:28the fear that keeps the EU 27 together. But when there are real
0:48:28 > 0:48:33choices on the table I expect there will be some sort of division
0:48:33 > 0:48:40between the EU 27.Camilla, listening to Dan Dalton, what is
0:48:40 > 0:48:44your impression of this seeming confusion over Britain remaining in
0:48:44 > 0:48:49the customs union during the transition period?The Lancaster
0:48:49 > 0:48:52House speech and Florence subsequently made it clear that we
0:48:52 > 0:48:56were going to leave the single market and the customs union. At the
0:48:56 > 0:49:00moment they are thrashing at the end state. Is she going to start
0:49:00 > 0:49:05briefing against what others said before she has got a cabinet
0:49:05 > 0:49:11consensus only to face more counter briefing?We have heard David Davis
0:49:11 > 0:49:14say it is on the same terms in the transition period.This is
0:49:14 > 0:49:22confusing. You are asking me as if I am responsible. There is a claim
0:49:22 > 0:49:25that David Davis has lost control to Ollie Robbins who seems to be
0:49:25 > 0:49:29briefing we want to stay in the customs union. There is a problem
0:49:29 > 0:49:35with the admin of this process.If it was only just about admin. Is
0:49:35 > 0:49:40this a political move by the EU, trying to crank up the pressure?
0:49:40 > 0:49:44Cancelling meetings they were going to have with David Davis, using the
0:49:44 > 0:49:48sort of language that David Davis said was discourteous, punishing
0:49:48 > 0:49:55Britain, trying to exert pressure? Of course, the 27 are looking after
0:49:55 > 0:49:58their interests like the UK is supposed to be looking after their
0:49:58 > 0:50:05own interests. It is as clear now as a drunken mass brawl in a bar after
0:50:05 > 0:50:12midnight what is happening. Theresa May has got a warring Cabinet, a
0:50:12 > 0:50:16warring party. She might think she knows what she wants but she cannot
0:50:16 > 0:50:20get it and that is why we are in this ridiculous row over what we are
0:50:20 > 0:50:24asking for in the transition period. If we do not know what we are asking
0:50:24 > 0:50:29for, how can we ever get it?We will find out. Thank you all very much.
0:50:29 > 0:50:31Thank you all very much.
0:50:31 > 0:50:33Now, the Spitzenkandidat process.
0:50:33 > 0:50:35What do you mean you haven't heard of it?
0:50:35 > 0:50:38It's a word that rolls off the tongues of MEPs almost
0:50:38 > 0:50:39as readily as Brexit.
0:50:39 > 0:50:40It's all about choosing Brussels' top eurocrat.
0:50:40 > 0:50:41Here's Adam Fleming to explain.
0:50:41 > 0:50:44When Jean-Claude Juncker comes to Strasbourg, he sits here.
0:50:44 > 0:50:45He got his job through the Spitzenkandidat,
0:50:45 > 0:50:47or lead candidate system, which says that the European
0:50:47 > 0:50:50Commission president should be the person put forward
0:50:50 > 0:50:53by the political grouping that does best in the European
0:50:53 > 0:50:55Parliament's elections.
0:50:55 > 0:50:58In 2014, that was the centre-right EPP.
0:50:58 > 0:51:03Juncker was their man, and that's why this is now his chair.
0:51:03 > 0:51:06It was opposed at the time by David Cameron, who said
0:51:06 > 0:51:09the choice should belong to leaders alone.
0:51:09 > 0:51:16Now, MEPs say they'd reject anyone who wasn't a Spitzenkandidat.
0:51:16 > 0:51:22The EPP group will not accept any candidate for the future commission
0:51:22 > 0:51:25president who was not presented during the campaign as lead
0:51:25 > 0:51:28candidate of a democratic party and can bring together a qualified
0:51:28 > 0:51:34majority in the new elected European Parliament.
0:51:34 > 0:51:36In Strasbourg this week, the Liberals tried to go further.
0:51:37 > 0:51:39A directly elected commission President rather than someone
0:51:39 > 0:51:47selected by party bosses like last time.
0:51:52 > 0:51:54They were never elected by citizens of Europe.
0:51:54 > 0:51:55I mean, they were just appointed.
0:51:55 > 0:51:58In this case we have Juncker, Jean-Claude Juncker,
0:51:58 > 0:52:00who was appointed by the EPP.
0:52:00 > 0:52:02EPP was the biggest party.
0:52:02 > 0:52:05So we would get away from that and people would stop blaming us
0:52:05 > 0:52:08for democratic deficiencies, if they can actually pick up
0:52:08 > 0:52:11the list and vote for a person.
0:52:11 > 0:52:13Others think it should be junked altogether.
0:52:13 > 0:52:15The European Union, its...
0:52:15 > 0:52:18Well, it's a union of member states.
0:52:18 > 0:52:22And it's taking away some member states, well,
0:52:22 > 0:52:25we have to say power in this case, and integrate more power in Europe
0:52:25 > 0:52:26and therefore Parliament.
0:52:26 > 0:52:30And this, I think it sends the wrong message and it's actually our group
0:52:30 > 0:52:33who are concerned with it.
0:52:33 > 0:52:35From its last legislative in 2014, we avoided the system
0:52:35 > 0:52:37completely and we didn't put our
0:52:37 > 0:52:39Spitzenkandidat on the campaign.
0:52:39 > 0:52:42Now the debate moves from Parliament's corridors
0:52:42 > 0:52:45to a meeting of EU leaders at the end of the month,
0:52:45 > 0:52:47where there's a split between opponents and supporters,
0:52:47 > 0:52:50like the Croatian Prime Minister, who I chanced doing
0:52:50 > 0:52:53a bit of gladhanding.
0:52:53 > 0:52:57I've witnessed this exercise already in 2014, when I was leading the list
0:52:57 > 0:53:02of my political party and my political family in Croatia.
0:53:02 > 0:53:05I think it was a cohesive element for the elections and I feel
0:53:05 > 0:53:10that we should continue with this concept also in these elections.
0:53:10 > 0:53:12Jan, how are you?
0:53:12 > 0:53:15Good to see you.
0:53:15 > 0:53:17So I supported it again today.
0:53:17 > 0:53:19Surprise!
0:53:19 > 0:53:21And who's this?
0:53:21 > 0:53:23Someone rumoured to fancy being the Spitzenkandidat
0:53:23 > 0:53:24for the centre-right.
0:53:24 > 0:53:26Can I ask a totally different question?
0:53:26 > 0:53:27What do you think of Spitzenkandidat?
0:53:27 > 0:53:29I'm sorry.
0:53:29 > 0:53:31Do you...
0:53:31 > 0:53:33Brexit, Brexit, Brexit.
0:53:33 > 0:53:35OK.
0:53:35 > 0:53:40Hmm - sticking to the day job for now.
0:53:40 > 0:53:41Adam Fleming reporting.
0:53:41 > 0:53:42Adam Fleming reporting.
0:53:42 > 0:53:46We're joined now from Brussels by Politico Europe's Maia de la Baume.
0:53:46 > 0:53:54I hope you can hear me. How much backing has this got, this idea of
0:53:54 > 0:53:58the parliament or the biggest party in the Parliament are having much
0:53:58 > 0:54:06more say over the candidates for the new commission president?The
0:54:06 > 0:54:08European Parliament clearly supports the idea because it basically is
0:54:08 > 0:54:14behind the idea and the commission also stands behind that idea because
0:54:14 > 0:54:21it is a way to strengthen democracy in the EU. The main challenge is for
0:54:21 > 0:54:27European countries because a lot of them think it would reduce their
0:54:27 > 0:54:33power and small member states also think it would favour big countries.
0:54:33 > 0:54:40So the process has drawn a lot of criticism in the EU. Some leaders
0:54:40 > 0:54:50still think it is not very necessary and it is also far from EU citizens'
0:54:50 > 0:54:55concerns about the EU.David Cameron was famously quite unhappy about the
0:54:55 > 0:54:59idea of Jean-Claude Juncker becoming commission president, he did not
0:54:59 > 0:55:02want to lose the power that nation states have in terms of influencing
0:55:02 > 0:55:07that decision. When you say people are against it, who else is against
0:55:07 > 0:55:14the idea of the Parliament having more influence on this?The most
0:55:14 > 0:55:18surprising country against the Spitzenkandidat is France. It is
0:55:18 > 0:55:23surprising because Emanuel Macron has always declared and supported an
0:55:23 > 0:55:27election process that would be more democratic and he has always been
0:55:27 > 0:55:35very keen to make Europe much more transparent and democratic.
0:55:35 > 0:55:39Basically it is surprising from him and his position is that the
0:55:39 > 0:55:44Spitzenkandidat would clearly favour the party in the European Parliament
0:55:44 > 0:55:50that has won the most seats, which means the EDP. It is the
0:55:50 > 0:55:55Conservative Party and not Emanuel Macron's party. We know he has not
0:55:55 > 0:55:58said it publicly, but we know he does not like it because it is not
0:55:58 > 0:56:03his party.Funny that, politicians always like an idea unless it does
0:56:03 > 0:56:08not go the way they would like it too in terms of support. What about
0:56:08 > 0:56:15directly electing a president? Will that idea ever catch on?That might
0:56:15 > 0:56:24happen someday but clearly not now. It would not be popular at all?
0:56:24 > 0:56:27Know, the Spitzenkandidat is already an improvement. For so many years it
0:56:27 > 0:56:33was decided among EU leaders in backroom deals and intense
0:56:33 > 0:56:37negotiations and the Parliament was not involved, so it is already a big
0:56:37 > 0:56:40step forward that the Parliament now could have the right to elect a
0:56:40 > 0:56:48candidate. Maybe in a few years they will have an elected president of
0:56:48 > 0:56:50the commission.Thank you very much.
0:56:50 > 0:56:54Thank you very much.
0:56:54 > 0:56:56Now, Yesterday MEPs voted to abolish summertime,
0:56:56 > 0:56:59or to ask the European Commission to consult on stopping
0:56:59 > 0:57:01the practice of changing the clocks between the summer
0:57:01 > 0:57:02and winter months.
0:57:02 > 0:57:04Currently the EU decides when the clocks should go
0:57:04 > 0:57:07forward and fall back.
0:57:07 > 0:57:10One Italian MEP wasn't happy with the proposal.
0:57:10 > 0:57:13TRANSLATION:Here we are talking about, should we abolish or not
0:57:13 > 0:57:16abolish summertime arrangements?
0:57:16 > 0:57:19Perhaps I can make a proposal to colleagues here within the European
0:57:19 > 0:57:24Parliament and that is that we move the fingers of the clock an
0:57:24 > 0:57:26hour back and that would mean a saving for European citizens -
0:57:26 > 0:57:34for Italian citizens - of 250,000 euros that we
0:57:34 > 0:57:39could then give back to citizens.
0:57:39 > 0:57:47Right, your thoughts? I would love to do it. Then the clock on my
0:57:47 > 0:57:51boiler would not be wrong for half of the year. We discussed this every
0:57:51 > 0:57:55now and then. I can see the argument for more sunlight in the morning,
0:57:55 > 0:58:02but it is a pain.What do you think? My children, three under nine, are
0:58:02 > 0:58:06already wired in the system and they are gradually getting up a bit
0:58:06 > 0:58:10earlier at the moment. We need the clocks to go forward to keep them in
0:58:10 > 0:58:15bed a bit longer. We are wired to the system and I do not think people
0:58:15 > 0:58:21take kindly to being dictated to by the EU.I have heard Tory MPs say
0:58:21 > 0:58:28that they think, just do it. It would make it a lot simpler.I like
0:58:28 > 0:58:38the way you both got in your little calling cards.
0:58:38 > 0:58:42calling cards. Do you think the consultation would ever happen?The
0:58:42 > 0:58:49consultation?I will not let you consult, that is the end. Thank you
0:58:49 > 0:58:52to all of my guests and thank you to Camilla and Kevin for being the
0:58:52 > 0:58:59guests of the day. From all of us here, goodbye.