0:00:41 > 0:00:44Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:44 > 0:00:46Theresa May says students in England deserve better value
0:00:46 > 0:00:49for their university degrees as she launches a comprehensive
0:00:49 > 0:00:52review of post-18 education.
0:00:52 > 0:01:00But is the Government just kicking the problem in to the long grass?
0:01:00 > 0:01:05The European Parliament's chief Brexit spokesman
0:01:05 > 0:01:07says Britain is unlikely to get the bespoke deal it wants.
0:01:07 > 0:01:10He's meeting MPs on the UK Parliament's Brexit committee today.
0:01:10 > 0:01:12We speak to one of them live from Brussels.
0:01:12 > 0:01:14And, apart from the annual political pancake day race
0:01:14 > 0:01:17it's been a little quiet in Westminster over the last week
0:01:17 > 0:01:19as Parliament has been on half-term recess.
0:01:19 > 0:01:22But as MPs head back to big smoke we've got all the details of what's
0:01:22 > 0:01:24in store over the next seven days.
0:01:24 > 0:01:27And, after Formula One decides to drop its "grid girls",
0:01:27 > 0:01:30we speak to an academic who argues that it is in fact
0:01:30 > 0:01:34aretrogradestep for women.
0:01:34 > 0:01:36Women should be able to earn their living
0:01:36 > 0:01:42doing whatever they want, including modelling, stripping,
0:01:42 > 0:01:48lap dancing, Page 3 photoshoots, burlesque shows.
0:01:48 > 0:01:52Yes, all that coming up in the next hour.
0:01:52 > 0:01:54Parliament is in fact still in recess today,
0:01:54 > 0:01:56but we've managed to find two dedicated public servants
0:01:56 > 0:01:58willing to cut short their half-term break by a day!
0:01:58 > 0:02:00Labour's Louise Haigh and Conservative Rehman Chishti -
0:02:00 > 0:02:08welcome to you both.
0:02:09 > 0:02:11Now MPs from the Brexit Select committee are in Brussels today
0:02:11 > 0:02:13to have meetings with various high profile figuers including
0:02:13 > 0:02:15the EU's chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier
0:02:15 > 0:02:17and the European Parliament's chief Brexit spokesman, Guy Verhofstadt.
0:02:17 > 0:02:20Mr Verhofstadt popped up on the Andrew Marr show yesterday
0:02:20 > 0:02:22and made some comments that won't have gone down all that well
0:02:22 > 0:02:25with some people on this side of the Channel,
0:02:25 > 0:02:27with Andrew Marr asking whether the government's negotiating
0:02:27 > 0:02:35strategy will be successful.
0:02:44 > 0:02:47It's fairly clear, it's not completely clear yet,
0:02:47 > 0:02:48what Theresa May is going to ask for.
0:02:48 > 0:02:50David Davis described it to me as "Canada plus plus plus".
0:02:50 > 0:02:53And what he meant by that was, a free-trade deal, no tariffs,
0:02:53 > 0:02:55no nontariff barriers for goods, cars and so forth.
0:02:55 > 0:02:57But special agreements on things like financial services.
0:02:57 > 0:02:59That's what they are going to ask for.
0:02:59 > 0:03:02Again, is that not reasonable, to do that kind of special
0:03:02 > 0:03:03bespoke arrangement?
0:03:03 > 0:03:06Yeah, but that will not be the outcome of this negotiation.
0:03:06 > 0:03:07It cannot be the outcome.
0:03:07 > 0:03:08Why not?
0:03:08 > 0:03:12The outcome will be, again, it will not be a type of saying,
0:03:12 > 0:03:14this is interesting, that we like.
0:03:14 > 0:03:22This is not interesting for us, we dislike and we don't want it.
0:03:22 > 0:03:25Craig Mackinlay is a Conservative MP on the Brexit Select Committee
0:03:25 > 0:03:27and is among the delegation of MPs meeting Mr Verhofstadt
0:03:27 > 0:03:29in Brussels today.
0:03:29 > 0:03:31We are hoping to speak with him shortly, but first, my guests here,
0:03:31 > 0:03:39no bespoke deal, is a pretty influential person, Guy Verhofstadt,
0:03:39 > 0:03:44how disappointed are you?That kind of talk has led to British people
0:03:44 > 0:03:48making a decision to determine their own destiny about laws, money,
0:03:48 > 0:03:51borders, telling us what we can and cannot do is not the right way
0:03:51 > 0:03:55forward. The British people have voted to come out of the single
0:03:55 > 0:03:58market, the customs union, the European Union. We must find a
0:03:58 > 0:04:03special relationship, we will leave the European Union but still be a
0:04:03 > 0:04:09part of Europe, we want a good relationship, we want trade with
0:04:09 > 0:04:11European partners, we have the commitment to find that special
0:04:11 > 0:04:19deal. We will get that. This kind of talk reinstates wider British public
0:04:19 > 0:04:23voted to determine their own destiny rather than being told by the
0:04:23 > 0:04:28Europeans.He is still saying no, the deal you are asking for one not
0:04:28 > 0:04:31beyond the table.We are working very hard to get the best boat
0:04:31 > 0:04:36deal...He just said no, no bespoke deal, there will be no Canada plus
0:04:36 > 0:04:44bus plus.-- the best bespoke deal. There will be nothing like that.We
0:04:44 > 0:04:47had a similar kind of issue pushed to us before when we were trying to
0:04:47 > 0:04:51get the first stage, we made an agreement on the financial deal, we
0:04:51 > 0:04:54made sure we dealt with the situation with the Northern Ireland.
0:04:54 > 0:05:00How have you dealt with that? The situation with Ireland?The Common
0:05:00 > 0:05:03travel area will be there, we made it very clear that we will not have
0:05:03 > 0:05:07a hard border, we made it very clear the Good Friday Agreement will stay
0:05:07 > 0:05:10in place.How do you do that if Britain is outside the customs
0:05:10 > 0:05:15union?Those are the core principles from which we will not move, those
0:05:15 > 0:05:19negotiations will take place in relation to detail but our
0:05:19 > 0:05:21principle, having a non-hard border with Northern Ireland is to the
0:05:21 > 0:05:27heart of it.Everyone is committed to it, how do you achieve it if you
0:05:27 > 0:05:31are not part of the customs union when there will have to be checks on
0:05:31 > 0:05:36goods and goods of origin?We achieve it with a brilliant
0:05:36 > 0:05:42Secretary of State for Brexit, with a great Prime Minister, that is how
0:05:42 > 0:05:47we do it's not what what you think this being said, that kind of
0:05:47 > 0:05:51language, that kind of telling Britain what it can and cannot have,
0:05:51 > 0:05:55that led semi-British voters, 17.4 and Ian people to vote to leave.It
0:05:55 > 0:05:59is that kind of attitude that I'm afraid to say that has led to the
0:05:59 > 0:06:02position of the European Commission and the European Union, such a
0:06:02 > 0:06:07hardline approach to gauche Asians. You think it is a hard line?It is
0:06:07 > 0:06:10quite a hardline because every other country has some kind of a spoke
0:06:10 > 0:06:14deal with the European Union, Turkey has its own customs union with the
0:06:14 > 0:06:18European Union, Norway is in the single market but not the customs
0:06:18 > 0:06:21union.They are in the single market, Britain does not want to be.
0:06:21 > 0:06:26Jersey is in the customs union but in the single market in relation to
0:06:26 > 0:06:29goods and not services, every other partner has some kind of the spoke
0:06:29 > 0:06:35deal, I think it is unlikely that Britain will not get a bespoke deal
0:06:35 > 0:06:39you do not have a fantastic Secretary of State negotiating
0:06:39 > 0:06:47"Brexit" 's, I must disagree.We got through the first stage.Ireland and
0:06:47 > 0:06:50the European Union, are interpreting that as member ship of the customs
0:06:50 > 0:06:54union and the single market. Quite frankly, it is very difficult to
0:06:54 > 0:06:57envisage how we will guarantee no hard border without membership of
0:06:57 > 0:07:01the customs union or a customs union.Is that what the Labour
0:07:01 > 0:07:06policy should be?The Labour policy has been, never remove the customs
0:07:06 > 0:07:09union from negotiating party, it is the ideological approach of the
0:07:09 > 0:07:13Tories of Brexit negotiation that has slowed a progress and let to
0:07:13 > 0:07:17this difficult negotiating stance on both sides.Just to be clear, do you
0:07:17 > 0:07:23want Jeremy Corbyn to state categorically that Labour supports a
0:07:23 > 0:07:27position of Britain remaining in the customs union with the EU?I think
0:07:27 > 0:07:32the position should remain as it is, we are not taking it off the
0:07:32 > 0:07:36negotiating table, that we are happy to remain members, we would be happy
0:07:36 > 0:07:40to negotiate a separate customs union but nothing should be off the
0:07:40 > 0:07:44negotiating table.INAUDIBLE ...Single market, outside the
0:07:44 > 0:07:49jurisdiction of the EU.INAUDIBLE You are saying, on the customs
0:07:49 > 0:07:52union, in your manifesto, coming out.We have always said it should
0:07:52 > 0:07:56not be off the negotiating table. INAUDIBLE
0:07:56 > 0:08:00I welcome back to this in just a moment but Craig is now there are,
0:08:00 > 0:08:05you may or may not have heard Guy Verhofstadt, we played a piece from
0:08:05 > 0:08:09his interview with Andrew Marr where he said there will be no bespoke
0:08:09 > 0:08:14deal, no Canada plus plus plus, what do you say to that?Well, we seem to
0:08:14 > 0:08:18be getting mixed messages, sorry to be a little late, I have been in a
0:08:18 > 0:08:23meeting with Michel Barnier, seems that there are offers on the table
0:08:23 > 0:08:27but we seem to have this rather rigid view that there has to be one
0:08:27 > 0:08:30model or another it cannot be the spoke, has to be like Canada, Canada
0:08:30 > 0:08:35was mentioned rather a lot, with some extra bits on security, very
0:08:35 > 0:08:40much outlined in the Prime Minister's Munich speech. Honestly
0:08:40 > 0:08:43feel that the EU needs to be more flexible to accommodate Britain
0:08:43 > 0:08:47because what we are forgetting is that we had a referendum, that
0:08:47 > 0:08:51referendum was to regain control of the borders and money and laws and
0:08:51 > 0:08:56that has to be respected. The EU needs to realise that we have a huge
0:08:56 > 0:09:03trade deficit with the EU. It is in their interest to get a very good
0:09:03 > 0:09:07deal for their own citizens and their own country.You say the EU
0:09:07 > 0:09:11needs to do this, how will you persuade Guy Verhofstadt, you have
0:09:11 > 0:09:15met Michel Barnier, chief negotiating officer.I am eating him
0:09:15 > 0:09:19in an hour or so.What will you say to him when he says the UK will not
0:09:19 > 0:09:22have a final deal which will see different arrangements for different
0:09:22 > 0:09:26sectors of the economy, there will not be special dispensation for
0:09:26 > 0:09:29financial services, he says it is impossible, how will you persuade
0:09:29 > 0:09:33him to move significantly on this position?We ended up not really
0:09:33 > 0:09:37knowing who the controlling mind is here, we seem to have Guy
0:09:37 > 0:09:41Verhofstadt saying different things from Michel Barnier, and who knows
0:09:41 > 0:09:45what the EU 27 are thinking. I got the impression today with Michel
0:09:45 > 0:09:50Barnier that he is worried that the 27 countries will not be moving
0:09:50 > 0:09:55together as one, that is very much a fear because Germany has a huge
0:09:55 > 0:09:59trade surplus with the UK, 2 million German jobs reliant on the UK
0:09:59 > 0:10:03market, and I think that ought to be in their mind, rather more clearly,
0:10:03 > 0:10:09that a deal is not, not just good for one, it will be good for both,
0:10:09 > 0:10:13positive sum deal, if that requires a bespoke arrangement acceptable to
0:10:13 > 0:10:17Britain's redlines, they will have to be soft on redlines as well.
0:10:17 > 0:10:21There is a deal to be done but it needs flexibility.What did Michel
0:10:21 > 0:10:24Barnier say to you clearly when he said that he gave a little bit more,
0:10:24 > 0:10:30he seems to be more flexible than Guy Verhofstadt, what did he promise
0:10:30 > 0:10:36on Canada type deal?Canada was mentioned a lot as a potential
0:10:36 > 0:10:43formulaic.And obviously, David Davis has said the same, Canada plus
0:10:43 > 0:10:48plus plus.Financial services, that seems to be a very major issue.And
0:10:48 > 0:10:54that was outlined very clearly, because of the security of the
0:10:54 > 0:10:59European financial markets, take the roles or don't say the rules. And
0:10:59 > 0:11:04that is the problem, but this is where we need some new thinking, new
0:11:04 > 0:11:09thinking of mutual recognition, looking back at the financial crisis
0:11:09 > 0:11:122008/9, Australia and Canada had no bailout of the bank, they have a
0:11:12 > 0:11:18financial system of easily robust. We need a global view. Certain
0:11:18 > 0:11:22countries are advanced, civilised, they have usual norms we are all
0:11:22 > 0:11:26familiar with, there should be mutual acceptance between advanced
0:11:26 > 0:11:29countries that this is the new way forward for global trade and I think
0:11:29 > 0:11:32Britain can be in the driving seat for that.You have made your
0:11:32 > 0:11:37position clear, would it help if Theresa May was clear on exactly
0:11:37 > 0:11:42what she wants in terms of that future relationship with the EU?
0:11:42 > 0:11:47Well, that has come out a bit today as well, with discussions, Michel
0:11:47 > 0:11:50Barnier saying, we would like to know exactly what the UK Government
0:11:50 > 0:11:56really wants, but from other bits and pieces on security, I think
0:11:56 > 0:12:02there is a lot of clarity on where Britain is going on this. That does
0:12:02 > 0:12:05seem to be a message coming forward, that we do need the UK Government to
0:12:05 > 0:12:10state very clearly what it is after. I think that will become clear
0:12:10 > 0:12:16before the end of March meeting, of the ministers. So I think the next
0:12:16 > 0:12:19six weeks are going to be very important and I am sure there will
0:12:19 > 0:12:23be clarity coming forward from the UK Government but it is needed, I
0:12:23 > 0:12:27will accept that.Guy Verhofstadt has said it is not acceptable to all
0:12:27 > 0:12:32to freedom of movement rules during transition into and Asian period, do
0:12:32 > 0:12:36you agree with that?Well I do not, we are leaving the institution of
0:12:36 > 0:12:41the European Union on the 29th of March of next year.-- during
0:12:41 > 0:12:48transitional implementation period. It seems ridiculous, it has been
0:12:48 > 0:12:52mentioned before, the vassal state situation we could find ourselves
0:12:52 > 0:12:56in, roll takers, new rules coming forward, applying them, freedom of
0:12:56 > 0:13:00movement exactly as there is today, that will not be fulfilling the
0:13:00 > 0:13:05referendum so things must change after Brexit. The PM is quite right
0:13:05 > 0:13:11with redlines she has put forward. Thank you very much.
0:13:14 > 0:13:16And for more reporting and analysis of Brexit,
0:13:16 > 0:13:19check out the BBC News website, that's bbc.co.uk/brexit.
0:13:19 > 0:13:21Now it's time for our daily quiz.
0:13:21 > 0:13:23It seems that bigmouth strikes again, the former Smiths singer
0:13:23 > 0:13:25Morrissey has had a go at a senior politician
0:13:25 > 0:13:27during one of his concerts.
0:13:27 > 0:13:29So our question for today is, who?
0:13:29 > 0:13:31Was it: a) Nicola Sturgeon,
0:13:31 > 0:13:33b) David Cameron, c) Theresa May,
0:13:33 > 0:13:34or d) Jeremy Corbyn?
0:13:34 > 0:13:36At the end of the show Rehman and Louise will give
0:13:36 > 0:13:41us the correct answer.
0:13:41 > 0:13:43Later today, Theresa May will announce an independent review
0:13:43 > 0:13:45of students fees and finance, because, she'll say,
0:13:45 > 0:13:48students in England currently face "one of the most expensive systems
0:13:48 > 0:13:50of university tuition in the world".
0:13:50 > 0:13:54The Prime Minister believes there are "serious concerns" among
0:13:54 > 0:13:56students, parents and grandparents about the system of student finance,
0:13:56 > 0:13:58concerns that have Labour promising to abolish fees entirely.
0:13:58 > 0:14:01So what's the situation in the higher education system currently?
0:14:01 > 0:14:03Almost all courses in England charge the maximum fee of just
0:14:03 > 0:14:05over £9,000 a year.
0:14:05 > 0:14:07But of course, students don't begin to pay that money back
0:14:07 > 0:14:10until after graduation and until they earn £25,000 a year.
0:14:10 > 0:14:12Interest rates fees now stand at up to 6.1% -
0:14:12 > 0:14:14a figure that has been roundly denounced by a number
0:14:14 > 0:14:20of senior Tories.
0:14:20 > 0:14:22With some students
0:14:22 > 0:14:25now leaving university with debts of more than £50,000
0:14:25 > 0:14:26after a three-year course.
0:14:26 > 0:14:28Last year the government froze fees at £9,250,
0:14:28 > 0:14:29and raised the repayment threshold
0:14:29 > 0:14:35but it clearly thinks there's more to be done.
0:14:35 > 0:14:37Today, Theresa May will say an expected competitive market
0:14:37 > 0:14:40in fees hasn't materialised since the coalition government
0:14:40 > 0:14:43raised the fee cap in 2012.
0:14:43 > 0:14:47The new independent review will look at setting fees based
0:14:47 > 0:14:50on the cost of a course, the benefit to the student, and
0:14:50 > 0:14:58the benefit to society as a whole.
0:14:58 > 0:15:00It will also consider the reintroduction of maintenance
0:15:00 > 0:15:06grants for poorer students,
0:15:06 > 0:15:10which were phased out in favour of loans in 2016.
0:15:10 > 0:15:13But the government's already come under fire
0:15:13 > 0:15:17from one senior backbencher,
0:15:17 > 0:15:20former Education Secretary Justine Greening
0:15:20 > 0:15:22says the fee system shouldn't be "a political football",
0:15:22 > 0:15:26that looked like it was being "kicked into the long grass".
0:15:26 > 0:15:27Well, earlier this morning
0:15:27 > 0:15:29Theresa May spoke to ITV's This Morning programme
0:15:29 > 0:15:32about the planned review.
0:15:32 > 0:15:35Let's see what she had to say.
0:15:43 > 0:15:44Let's see what she had to say.
0:15:44 > 0:15:48What we need to do now is say, we have a system of fees
0:15:48 > 0:15:49in education, but some issues have arisen.
0:15:49 > 0:15:52A concern not just for students themselves, but families, parents,
0:15:52 > 0:15:54grandparents have about the level of debt that they build up.
0:15:54 > 0:15:57And also a concern that, basically, universities charge the same,
0:15:57 > 0:15:59whatever course you are doing, they will charge the same.
0:15:59 > 0:16:01So there are some questions for universities.
0:16:01 > 0:16:02Theresa May speaking earlier.
0:16:02 > 0:16:05Well, to discuss this we're joined by David Willetts, he's the chair
0:16:05 > 0:16:07of the Resolution Foundation think-tank and was the
0:16:07 > 0:16:11Universities Minister during the coalition government.
0:16:11 > 0:16:15You with the architect who designed the current system. What do you make
0:16:15 > 0:16:18of the Prime Minister saying there is something wrong with the current
0:16:18 > 0:16:22student finance system and she understands peoples concerns?I
0:16:22 > 0:16:25think there are some concerns and you covered them in your
0:16:25 > 0:16:30introduction. Interest rates is an issue. Pressure for students on
0:16:30 > 0:16:32their budgets when they are at university, so bringing back
0:16:32 > 0:16:37maintenance grants would be a good thing. But overall, I think a system
0:16:37 > 0:16:42where graduates pay back only when they are in a well-paid job, is a
0:16:42 > 0:16:46fair and sensible way of funding higher education.The Prime Minister
0:16:46 > 0:16:50isn't criticising the core principle you have just outlined, but she has
0:16:50 > 0:16:55said the competitive market between universities, the system of variable
0:16:55 > 0:16:58tuition fees envisaged, it has simply not emerged. That is true,
0:16:58 > 0:17:03and it is a major flaw.I originally thought we would see price
0:17:03 > 0:17:07competition, and we haven't seen that. I think we understand why.
0:17:07 > 0:17:11First of all, students do not pay up front, which is a good thing, but
0:17:11 > 0:17:16because of that, a graduate repayment system, saying one course
0:17:16 > 0:17:21is 7000 and another is 8000, isn't relevant to them. And secondly, when
0:17:21 > 0:17:25you try to work out how you differentiate these in different
0:17:25 > 0:17:28courses, you rapidly find out there is no settled view on how to do it.
0:17:28 > 0:17:33It would be very hard. Lots of people come to me and say we should
0:17:33 > 0:17:36have differential fees, and I ask on what basis, and they all have
0:17:36 > 0:17:41different models. Trying to say we should have subjects, or salaries of
0:17:41 > 0:17:44graduates come you soon find you are in an incredibly complicated system.
0:17:44 > 0:17:48I think this being a contribution everybody makes to higher education
0:17:48 > 0:17:55that you pay back when you graduate is a workable model.You haven't
0:17:55 > 0:17:58addressed the basic criticism from the Prime Minister that the market
0:17:58 > 0:18:02does not exist to stop almost all universities charge the maximum.
0:18:02 > 0:18:06That was a core part of the system you devised and it has failed.There
0:18:06 > 0:18:10is a market, but it works in a different way. In the old days when
0:18:10 > 0:18:12it was public spending, the government allocated a fixed number
0:18:12 > 0:18:18of places to eat university. Now universities are not financed out of
0:18:18 > 0:18:23public spending, but instead through the graduate contribution scheme, we
0:18:23 > 0:18:29have lower number controls so more universities get their first choice.
0:18:29 > 0:18:34Popular universities expand and less popular universities are shrinking.
0:18:34 > 0:18:41That's not the competition you expected when you set up the scheme.
0:18:41 > 0:18:44The competition is absolutely one of the crucial features of the new
0:18:44 > 0:18:47model. Is that we wouldn't have the government fixing the number of
0:18:47 > 0:18:52places. And universities, more universities, are able to take more
0:18:52 > 0:18:56students getting their first choice university because the popular
0:18:56 > 0:19:00universities can expand. Looking at the adverts on the tube, looked at
0:19:00 > 0:19:03the websites, you will find universities are absolutely
0:19:03 > 0:19:07competing with each other for students.So why is the government
0:19:07 > 0:19:11deciding there needs to be a review, if there are serious concerns and it
0:19:11 > 0:19:15is working so brilliantly?I understand the interest rate
0:19:15 > 0:19:19pressures and pressures on students. The other issue is parents are
0:19:19 > 0:19:22worried...That could be dealt with. A review implies that there is
0:19:22 > 0:19:27something wrong at the heart of the system. I take your point about the
0:19:27 > 0:19:32way you see the market working. But the Prime Minister is very specific.
0:19:32 > 0:19:35The level of fees charged do not relate to the cost or quality of the
0:19:35 > 0:19:40course. Do you think it costs as much for an arts course, let's take
0:19:40 > 0:19:46a history degree, as it is to study engineering?It costs more to
0:19:46 > 0:19:50deliver an engineering course, which is why there was already in the
0:19:50 > 0:19:54system an extra item of public spending to help universities with a
0:19:54 > 0:19:56higher cost of engineering, and it would be a good result from the
0:19:56 > 0:20:00review if they said extra public resource for high cost subject
0:20:00 > 0:20:03should be increased.But you wouldn't want to see courses being
0:20:03 > 0:20:09charged at different levels?This is the day after the Baftas. Are we
0:20:09 > 0:20:13supposed to say that doing an arts subject is less valuable than a
0:20:13 > 0:20:17science subject? We don't know how the British economy is going to
0:20:17 > 0:20:21develop. I am a free marketeer and I don't think governments can predict
0:20:21 > 0:20:27the value of individual degrees or should interfere in individual
0:20:27 > 0:20:33student choices.Is it fair that a course that costs 4500 to deliver
0:20:33 > 0:20:39costs more than £9,000 question mark we don't know of any courses that
0:20:39 > 0:20:45cost 4500 to deliver. You just said engineering courses cost more.
0:20:45 > 0:20:50Either university needs to charge less, all that money is still
0:20:50 > 0:20:55available to go into the resources of the University that can help pay
0:20:55 > 0:20:58for shared university facilities that all students use.Isn't it
0:20:58 > 0:21:01damning that the Conservative government is now effectively saying
0:21:01 > 0:21:06and admitting that its own policy in higher education hasn't worked?Not
0:21:06 > 0:21:11at all. What the Conservative Party is saying that with regards to the
0:21:11 > 0:21:14reforms David Boote Ford, he was a brilliant minister and I was a
0:21:14 > 0:21:20pleasure to work with him on that, -- what David puts forward.So why
0:21:20 > 0:21:25is there a review and the Prime Minister says there are serious
0:21:25 > 0:21:28concerns from students, parents and grandparents about the system, the
0:21:28 > 0:21:32whole system, and she shares them. Let me put it this way. When we came
0:21:32 > 0:21:36into government we made it clear we want every child to get the best
0:21:36 > 0:21:39education in life. I was the first in my family to go to university, to
0:21:39 > 0:21:42go on to become a lawyer, barrister and into bond. My parents didn't
0:21:42 > 0:21:46have a lot of money. I paid my way to being a young barrister. I want
0:21:46 > 0:21:51every child on merits to get there. I accept the education and costing
0:21:51 > 0:21:55at the moment which is raised with me by constituents is very
0:21:55 > 0:21:59expensive.So would you bring down these?We need to look at everything
0:21:59 > 0:22:03will stop this review would look at ensuring we get the right amount of
0:22:03 > 0:22:10resources for courses. We look at the issue of interest. Make sure the
0:22:10 > 0:22:13point for students and affordability is a tad. The point you raise about
0:22:13 > 0:22:16the cost of running those courses, and also the benefit as to the
0:22:16 > 0:22:23economy as a whole.You would interfere in a market in the way
0:22:23 > 0:22:27David Willetts has said the government should not do?We need to
0:22:27 > 0:22:32look at the whole aspect. To make sure we get the right system in
0:22:32 > 0:22:36place and address the issue of cost. We have one of the most expensive...
0:22:36 > 0:22:39You were responsible, you were in the coalition government that raised
0:22:39 > 0:22:44the fees.I wanted to make sure more people from disadvantaged
0:22:44 > 0:22:47backgrounds were able to go to higher education, and I am proud
0:22:47 > 0:22:52that.All the warnings that children, students from
0:22:52 > 0:22:55disadvantaged families would not and would stop going to university, that
0:22:55 > 0:23:00has not materialised.I think that is right, but over the last year we
0:23:00 > 0:23:03have seen numbers start to drop, the ratio of numbers between
0:23:03 > 0:23:07disadvantaged students compare to the most advantaged, is getting
0:23:07 > 0:23:12higher in terms of accessing higher education. Disadvantaged students
0:23:12 > 0:23:15finish university with much greater depth than advantaged students,
0:23:15 > 0:23:1957,000 instead of 40 3000. That's because of the maintenance grant and
0:23:19 > 0:23:23loan is being taken away, and a system of student fees. They also
0:23:23 > 0:23:29less likely to earn the same amount as more advantaged students.Your
0:23:29 > 0:23:32concern is about students from less well-off families, students who
0:23:32 > 0:23:36struggle to meet some of the cost as well as having some of the debts
0:23:36 > 0:23:40despite the job they might get at the end. Do you accept abolishing
0:23:40 > 0:23:43tuition fees would help the very richest students as well?It would
0:23:43 > 0:23:49help every student.Is that the right way to devise a system?Is not
0:23:49 > 0:23:52just about the ratio, it's the culture of debt it creates. Students
0:23:52 > 0:23:56leaving with an average of £50,000 after three years in university is
0:23:56 > 0:23:59not good for the society or the country. The last financial crash
0:23:59 > 0:24:06started as a result partly as a consequence of the culture of debt
0:24:06 > 0:24:11in society.Is it the same student debt people take out credit cards?
0:24:11 > 0:24:16It is treated differently. Just to pick on something they have touched
0:24:16 > 0:24:20on here, the variable fees. The proposals we have seen from the
0:24:20 > 0:24:23secretary of State in the last couple of days have suggested
0:24:23 > 0:24:25science stem courses should be charged at a higher rate than arts
0:24:25 > 0:24:30courses. Companies looking at that thinking, we have a huge skills gap
0:24:30 > 0:24:34in Stem subjects will think, why on earth would we deter students even
0:24:34 > 0:24:38more than we do currently. It doesn't look that access to those
0:24:38 > 0:24:44courses at all.We don't but students who want to do Stem
0:24:44 > 0:24:48subjects. Listening to the Secretary of State, he said it's something the
0:24:48 > 0:24:51government will ensure, extra resources are put in place to
0:24:51 > 0:24:55support Stem subjects. The review will take into account all aspects
0:24:55 > 0:24:58of supporting students with regards to Stem subjects to ensure that
0:24:58 > 0:25:02those who can contribute more to the economy given the support they need.
0:25:02 > 0:25:05This government has been ever eight years, why does it want another
0:25:05 > 0:25:10review? It's a government that's out of ideas.You say it's a
0:25:10 > 0:25:13straightforward scenario where you would wipe student debt and abolish
0:25:13 > 0:25:17tuition fees, which would cost about 12 billion. And use the same
0:25:17 > 0:25:21money... 11.2 billion, and you would use corporation tax to pay for that
0:25:21 > 0:25:25and the social health care service and policing, so the same money goes
0:25:25 > 0:25:31over and over again. Your figures... Labour has promised to abolish
0:25:31 > 0:25:34tuition fees. Politically, that is difficult for the Conservative Party
0:25:34 > 0:25:40to ever match.I don't think we should match it. The trouble is, if
0:25:40 > 0:25:45I had £11 billion to spend on education, which would be a
0:25:45 > 0:25:49fantastic opportunity, helping affluent graduates would not be a
0:25:49 > 0:25:51high priority. It should go to nurseries and schools and
0:25:51 > 0:25:57universities. Given, as you established, the crucial politics of
0:25:57 > 0:26:01all this is that it is not like conventional debt. It is not an
0:26:01 > 0:26:05overdraft or mortgage. I think parents fear it somehow makes it
0:26:05 > 0:26:08harder for their kids to get started on the housing ladder, because it is
0:26:08 > 0:26:13a debt, but it does not get in the way of accessing conventional
0:26:13 > 0:26:18borrowing to help their lives as adults.
0:26:18 > 0:26:21Our most dedicated fans will have noticed that the Daily Politics
0:26:21 > 0:26:23was off air last week as Parliament wasn't sitting.
0:26:23 > 0:26:25But that doesn't mean politics grinds to a halt.
0:26:25 > 0:26:27So what did we miss last week?
0:26:27 > 0:26:29On Wednesday, Boris Johnson, gave his Valentine's address -
0:26:29 > 0:26:31billed as message of love for liberal Remainers,
0:26:31 > 0:26:33saying that Brexit was not "not some reactionary Faragist concept",
0:26:33 > 0:26:40but that it would be "a disastrous mistake" to try to stop it.
0:26:40 > 0:26:45On Saturday, Theresa May landed in Munich with a message
0:26:45 > 0:26:50of reassurance to European partners over security - with a continuing
0:26:50 > 0:26:54commitment to Europol and the European Arrest Warrant -
0:26:54 > 0:26:59even if that meant some ongoing role for the European Court of Justice.
0:26:59 > 0:27:03And then there were tabloid stories alluding to meetings
0:27:03 > 0:27:05between a former Czechoslovakian spy and Jeremy Corbyn in the 1980s.
0:27:05 > 0:27:09Labour says the stories are "scurrilous".
0:27:09 > 0:27:12And finally, Ukip will need to find yet another leader as leader
0:27:12 > 0:27:14Henry Bolton was ousted in an extraordinary general
0:27:14 > 0:27:17meeting of the party in Birmingham on Saturday.
0:27:17 > 0:27:20Well, to pick on some of those stories and also to talk us
0:27:20 > 0:27:23through the week ahead, I'm joined now by Lucy Fisher of
0:27:23 > 0:27:27The Times and Henry Mance of the FT.
0:27:27 > 0:27:31Welcome to both of you. Henry, journalists were not allowed into
0:27:31 > 0:27:35the extraordinary meeting, but you somehow managed to smuggle yourself
0:27:35 > 0:27:39into the room.I got lucky. I'm amazed I wasn't spotted because I
0:27:39 > 0:27:45was half the age of everyone there. Don't boast!I hitched on somebody
0:27:45 > 0:27:50who had a copy of the Financial Times at the event and sat quietly
0:27:50 > 0:27:53with a flyer saying, back Henry Bolton. I didn't use my phone, there
0:27:53 > 0:27:57was a strict ban, and it was an amazing sight seeing people get up
0:27:57 > 0:28:02to make speeches in 1500 people there, to the credit of Ukip.The
0:28:02 > 0:28:05atmosphere around Henry Bolton?A pretty muted reception, you could
0:28:05 > 0:28:09tell straightaway he was going. The reason they didn't allow journalists
0:28:09 > 0:28:14in was they were terrified of other political opponents getting videos
0:28:14 > 0:28:19of leading party members going at each other, which they did. There
0:28:19 > 0:28:23were threats of legal action, people were late. It was a political
0:28:23 > 0:28:28circus.It underlines everything you ever believe. Gerard Batten is the
0:28:28 > 0:28:32interim leader. Who will be the next leader and will the party survive?
0:28:32 > 0:28:37It could be Gerard Batten. He wants it going in the direction of being
0:28:37 > 0:28:40an anti-Islam party. In the last leadership election that Henry
0:28:40 > 0:28:44Bolton windbag, there is a large portion of the party who want to go
0:28:44 > 0:28:48that direction. There was a female candidate running on that ticket.
0:28:48 > 0:28:51There is some suggestion Suzanne Evans, former Tory councillor and
0:28:51 > 0:28:54long-time Ukip figure, could run. I'm not sure it has a future. One
0:28:54 > 0:28:58problem is the finances will stop once we leave the European Union
0:28:58 > 0:29:01they will no longer have any peas and on top of that they have a
0:29:01 > 0:29:07£200,000 bill for a libel case due. I think it's unclear how they will
0:29:07 > 0:29:11struggle on.Are their votes up for grabs?There are not that many of
0:29:11 > 0:29:16them left. Two, three and 4% in the opinion polls, not standing in most
0:29:16 > 0:29:20seats last time, so we are getting close to the bottom already.Louise
0:29:20 > 0:29:26Haigh, the story about the Labour leader meeting a former
0:29:26 > 0:29:32Czechoslovakian spy. Some saying that he paid Jeremy Corbyn to pass
0:29:32 > 0:29:38on information to Prague and Moscow, a charge the Labour leader denies.
0:29:38 > 0:29:42It has been reiterated there is nothing in the archive to suggest
0:29:42 > 0:29:46Jeremy Corbyn was an informer, but he was a person, according to our
0:29:46 > 0:29:51source, of interest to the Secret Service. Are you comfortable with
0:29:51 > 0:29:55the fact the Labour leader was a person of interest to the
0:29:55 > 0:29:59Czechoslovakian Secret Service when they were enemies in the Cold War?I
0:29:59 > 0:30:03have seen conflicting reports. You said that Jeremy Corbyn was paid
0:30:03 > 0:30:06money, I have seen of the reports were under no circumstances did he
0:30:06 > 0:30:11give Jeremy Corbyn money. Reports are very thin.He admitted he met a
0:30:11 > 0:30:14Czechoslovakian diplomat, but are you comfortable with the fact that
0:30:14 > 0:30:18there was contact between the Labour leader, he says a Czechoslovakian
0:30:18 > 0:30:21diplomat, and others have said he was a former agent. Are you
0:30:21 > 0:30:26comfortable with the fact those contacts were made in the Cold War?
0:30:26 > 0:30:28Jeremy has been interested in foreign policy issues his entire
0:30:28 > 0:30:32career. I don't know if he was sat on the foreign policy select
0:30:32 > 0:30:35committee at the time but he has sat on it in the past. You meet people
0:30:35 > 0:30:41from other countries and other governments in all walks of life in
0:30:41 > 0:30:43this job. I don't think there is any issue with him eating this
0:30:43 > 0:30:46individual, if he claims to be a diplomat at the times. And as MPs we
0:30:46 > 0:30:50do not have the ability to vet people when they come in, we can't
0:30:50 > 0:30:53double-check if they say who they are. You have to take people at face
0:30:53 > 0:30:57value when they come to see you.You say you don't have the ability to
0:30:57 > 0:31:02vet people, but it is important to know the details of any contact.
0:31:02 > 0:31:05Jeremy Corbyn was a backbench MP then, but is now leader of the
0:31:05 > 0:31:11Labour Party, any contact he may have had with people in the Eastern
0:31:11 > 0:31:15Bloc when the Cold War was going on. That should absolutely be put on the
0:31:15 > 0:31:20table. But Jeremy and John McDonnell and Ken Livingstone have all denied
0:31:20 > 0:31:23absolutely that they were informants or agents or anything of this
0:31:23 > 0:31:27nature. I believe this former spy also claims the Czechoslovakians
0:31:27 > 0:31:31were behind live aid as well. It seems he not a particularly reliable
0:31:31 > 0:31:34source.
0:31:37 > 0:31:41around Jeremy Corbyn's antipathy towards what he sees as western
0:31:41 > 0:31:47imperialism and his past sympathies for some... The Soviet bloc. It has
0:31:47 > 0:31:52put those back front and centre of the discourse. Whether this will
0:31:52 > 0:31:56bent support for him, I am not convinced, people knew about these
0:31:56 > 0:32:01contacts, these sentiments that he had, before the general election and
0:32:01 > 0:32:08it did not hurt him then.Surprised? As recently as 2013, Jeremy Corbyn
0:32:08 > 0:32:11said Hugo Chavez had made a massive contribution to the world, people
0:32:11 > 0:32:15know that these on one extreme, if he were Prime Minister, we would see
0:32:15 > 0:32:19a change to foreign policy, we should be aware that there is a big
0:32:19 > 0:32:22change on the table.Let's talk about Boris Johnson's speech from
0:32:22 > 0:32:29last week. Did not land in quite the way that the Foreign Secretary may
0:32:29 > 0:32:33have anticipated.He is seen as a toxic figure among Remainers, even
0:32:33 > 0:32:37before stepping out on stage, Chuka Umunna, he said he was completely
0:32:37 > 0:32:42unqualified to preach, as they put it. To me, his speech was
0:32:42 > 0:32:49interesting only, -- interesting tonally coming he was talking about
0:32:49 > 0:32:53a deal, it was a speech aimed at Theresa May and the rest of the
0:32:53 > 0:32:58cabinet colleagues, urging them to try to make more of a positive tone
0:32:58 > 0:33:01around Brexit, there has been a vacuum on that side of the debate.
0:33:01 > 0:33:05Apart from time, what was the most important thing that Boris Johnson
0:33:05 > 0:33:09said?He made it very clear, where people are doubting ability to go
0:33:09 > 0:33:13out there and make a great success of Brexit, he put it clearly, for us
0:33:13 > 0:33:17as a country, this is a great opportunity to go out there, forge
0:33:17 > 0:33:21relationships around the world, and make sure we can benefit as much as
0:33:21 > 0:33:25we can from the new relationship we are going to have with... What was
0:33:25 > 0:33:30said about the new relationship? What he said very clearly, we are
0:33:30 > 0:33:34leaving the European Union but not leaving Europe, so therefore...But
0:33:34 > 0:33:38that is but that is rhetoric, that is rhetoric. INAUDIBLE
0:33:38 > 0:33:44As Lucy Fisher was saying, that was about time, optimistic note, what
0:33:44 > 0:33:48did he say of any importance in terms of the negotiations?What he
0:33:48 > 0:33:53said was, look, our relationship with Europe, we want an enhanced
0:33:53 > 0:33:57relationship at every level, whether with defence, security, whether it
0:33:57 > 0:34:01is with trade. We are not leaving European partners, leaving the
0:34:01 > 0:34:05European Union, we want to bring the deal with us. It is in their
0:34:05 > 0:34:08interest and our interest and we have the commitment to make that
0:34:08 > 0:34:12happen.When the trade bill comes back to the Commons, there will be
0:34:12 > 0:34:15an amendment calling for Britain to remain in the customs union, would
0:34:15 > 0:34:19you both have that amendment?I don't know who is putting it forward
0:34:19 > 0:34:26so I cannot commit.Would you vote for an amendment that Britain should
0:34:26 > 0:34:30stay in the customs union? Personally I would, I don't think it
0:34:30 > 0:34:34should be cut off the table and I don't see how we can resolve the
0:34:34 > 0:34:37hard border issue without a customs union or the customs union.Would
0:34:37 > 0:34:42you like to see Jeremy Corbyn whipped Labour MPs into voting for a
0:34:42 > 0:34:44motion that would say that Britain stays in the customs union.
0:34:44 > 0:34:48Depending upon the text, I would support that.You would like to see
0:34:48 > 0:34:53the Labour leadership vote. --
0:34:54 > 0:34:57what if Theresa May were defeated, she has categorically said that we
0:34:57 > 0:35:01will leave. We have made it very clear.Labour whips. Labour have
0:35:01 > 0:35:06already tried to frustrate the process, 243 Labour MPs had not vote
0:35:06 > 0:35:10for the European withdrawal bill which would end the supremacy of the
0:35:10 > 0:35:13European laws, we have made it clear, we want to make this a
0:35:13 > 0:35:17success, they can frustrate its.It is called accountability, not
0:35:17 > 0:35:21frustration.Rest of the Leslie, result of the referendum will not
0:35:21 > 0:35:24even be accepted, amendment after amendment...INAUDIBLE
0:35:24 > 0:35:30...Before we get into too much more bickering, thank you very much with
0:35:30 > 0:35:34joining us.
0:35:35 > 0:35:36The Government is facing calls for an early Commons vote
0:35:36 > 0:35:39on whether to press ahead with plans to cut the number of
0:35:39 > 0:35:41MPs from 650 to 600.
0:35:41 > 0:35:43Parliament is due to vote in the autumn on new parliamentary
0:35:43 > 0:35:46boundaries, based on rule changes introduced by the coalition in 2011.
0:35:46 > 0:35:48However, the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee
0:35:48 > 0:35:50is warning today that the measure is unlikely to pass and,
0:35:50 > 0:35:53unless Parliament decides to have a new boundary review,
0:35:53 > 0:35:55the next election will be fought on the existing boundaries based
0:35:55 > 0:35:58on population data more than 20 years out of date.
0:36:00 > 0:36:02Tony Bellringeris the Deputy Secretary
0:36:02 > 0:36:10to the Boundary Commission for England, he joins me now.
0:36:10 > 0:36:14If there were to be a new boundary review, would your heart sink if you
0:36:14 > 0:36:20had to do it again?Thank you, good afternoon, would be a little
0:36:20 > 0:36:24frustrating as staff, I have to admit, given that we did start a
0:36:24 > 0:36:31review in 2011 after new legislation was passed, and that failed to get
0:36:31 > 0:36:34to the end for various reasons. To have it happen again would be
0:36:34 > 0:36:41dispiriting.Dispiriting, but possible?Would just about be
0:36:41 > 0:36:47possible, gave evidence to the committee around the turn of the
0:36:47 > 0:36:51year, the current arrangements ask us to complete a review, in short
0:36:51 > 0:36:55three years, end to end, the legislation requires us through
0:36:55 > 0:37:01various stages of consultation, we have some 35,000 responses, in the
0:37:01 > 0:37:05review so far, takes a long time to look through those.As Nelly, what
0:37:05 > 0:37:10would you think of the idea of a new boundary review, keeping the same
0:37:10 > 0:37:14number of MPs, 650?Agnostic! LAUGHTER
0:37:14 > 0:37:21Fair enough.The number is just the number for us at the end of the day.
0:37:21 > 0:37:25It is the number we must work with, how we must distribute it across the
0:37:25 > 0:37:30country, according to a formula. It is what it is. The number. We do not
0:37:30 > 0:37:35have a view, certainly not publicly on what the number should be, that
0:37:35 > 0:37:39is a matter for politicians and Parliament.Thank you very much.
0:37:39 > 0:37:45Would you like to see a new review, as is being suggested by the Commons
0:37:45 > 0:37:46public administration Constitutional affairs committee and Bernard Jenkin
0:37:46 > 0:37:51your colleague to keep the number of MPs at 650?I had a manifesto
0:37:51 > 0:38:00commitment to reduce it down to 200, -- reduce it from 650 down to 600, I
0:38:00 > 0:38:03want that to go ahead because it is important to have a similar level of
0:38:03 > 0:38:06representation in parliament but the points made by Bernard of course we
0:38:06 > 0:38:11have to look at the data that was used was prior to 2015, some say the
0:38:11 > 0:38:19data is slightly outdated, and...20 years.The data they used this was
0:38:19 > 0:38:242015... For the current boundaries, the previous one, 20 years, yes you
0:38:24 > 0:38:28are absolutely right.Is it important to actually be in a
0:38:28 > 0:38:30situation if the Prime Minister says, she is going to go ahead with
0:38:30 > 0:38:34cutting the number, if it does not have the support of MPs, if it is
0:38:34 > 0:38:39not going to get through.Bernard is a brilliant college, working very
0:38:39 > 0:38:43hard on the committee, but there is a manifesto commitment from us the
0:38:43 > 0:38:46Conservatives to reduce the cost of politics to ensure that members of
0:38:46 > 0:38:51Parliament have equal constituents, who I think it is fair that I have
0:38:51 > 0:38:5572000 and others may have 45,000, I think that is unfair.Will it get
0:38:55 > 0:38:59through?It is a manifesto commitment and I would like to
0:38:59 > 0:39:04honour that.Do you support it?No, the idea that this is cutting the
0:39:04 > 0:39:07cost of politics, when the Tories have packed the House of Lords with
0:39:07 > 0:39:12Lords that...Tony Blair did it. INAUDIBLE
0:39:12 > 0:39:17You have...This is about cutting the number of Labour seats, because
0:39:17 > 0:39:21the number of people not in the electoral register in Labour areas
0:39:21 > 0:39:25is going to be higher than...But you... The point to reduce the
0:39:25 > 0:39:28number of constituencies and make them a more equal size in terms of
0:39:28 > 0:39:32the number of people and constituencies, that is fair.Yes,
0:39:32 > 0:39:35absolutely, I support the principle but as Raymond has said, the
0:39:35 > 0:39:40electoral data they are using, that they use the 2015, it is already
0:39:40 > 0:39:44well out of date, more than a million extra people registered to
0:39:44 > 0:39:47vote ahead of the European referendum, tens of thousands of
0:39:47 > 0:39:50additional students, are we saying their votes do not count and will
0:39:50 > 0:39:54not count in the boundary review? Will you support a new review? Yes,
0:39:54 > 0:39:59I will.You will back the proposal by Bernard Jenkins. Will it get
0:39:59 > 0:40:02through if there is not a new review?I think the wafer thin
0:40:02 > 0:40:05majority for the Tories at the moment, they will struggle to vote
0:40:05 > 0:40:10to reduce the number of MPs to 600. I'm sorry to say this to you, you
0:40:10 > 0:40:15may be conducting a new review, dispiriting as it sounds(!) thank
0:40:15 > 0:40:16you.
0:40:22 > 0:40:26There seems to have been a seismic shift in sexual politics in the last
0:40:26 > 0:40:28six months with the "Me Too" campaign, the debate
0:40:28 > 0:40:29about the gender pay gap
0:40:29 > 0:40:31and the ending of "grid girls" in Formula One racing.
0:40:31 > 0:40:34But is itwrongfor women to exploit their beauty?
0:40:34 > 0:40:36Sociologist Catherine Hakim thinks women should use their "erotic
0:40:36 > 0:40:37capital" to get ahead.
0:40:37 > 0:40:40Here's her soapbox.
0:40:45 > 0:40:47MUSIC: Flashing Lights by Kanye West ft Dwele.
0:40:47 > 0:40:50# Flashing lights
0:40:50 > 0:40:55The BBC, Tesco and other employers have started analyses of the reasons
0:40:55 > 0:40:59for the differences between men and women and their earnings.
0:40:59 > 0:41:02However, some feminist campaigners have started to destroy women's
0:41:02 > 0:41:05ability to exploit their good looks and charm, or what I would call,
0:41:05 > 0:41:08their "erotic capital."
0:41:08 > 0:41:10Women have a clear advantage
0:41:10 > 0:41:15in exploiting their good looks over men.
0:41:15 > 0:41:17# As I recall, I know you love to show off
0:41:17 > 0:41:21# But I never thought that you would take it this far
0:41:21 > 0:41:27# What do I know?
0:41:27 > 0:41:32Any activity, any enterprise, any sport,
0:41:32 > 0:41:33is raised to a higher level
0:41:33 > 0:41:35if those involved are attractive, beautiful,
0:41:35 > 0:41:36handsome people.
0:41:36 > 0:41:38Airlines know this, restaurants and bars know it.
0:41:38 > 0:41:41Beautiful women sell more goods and services than beautiful men.
0:41:41 > 0:41:44So that's why we have Formula 1 grid girls, darts showgirls,
0:41:44 > 0:41:46and in the United States
0:41:46 > 0:41:48there are beautiful young cheerleaders at half-time
0:41:48 > 0:41:52in major sporting events.
0:41:52 > 0:41:54No one objects to David Beckham earning millions from posing
0:41:54 > 0:41:56in underwear, almost naked,
0:41:56 > 0:41:59on huge billboards in public places.
0:41:59 > 0:42:04So why do we object to women doing exactly the same thing?
0:42:04 > 0:42:07Objections come from deeply-rooted patriarchal values
0:42:07 > 0:42:14that are still embedded in modern sexual politics.
0:42:14 > 0:42:21Andthatfeminist ideology
0:42:21 > 0:42:24has unwittinglyreinforced instead of eliminating.
0:42:24 > 0:42:25Modern objections, modern feminist objections,
0:42:25 > 0:42:27are now against women exploiting their good looks
0:42:27 > 0:42:34instead of encouraging them to negotiate for higher pay.
0:42:34 > 0:42:36The returns to attractiveness and beauty
0:42:36 > 0:42:40equal the returns to educational qualifications.
0:42:40 > 0:42:45Those who have erotic capital have a huge advantage.
0:42:45 > 0:42:48Men and women with a good appearance,
0:42:48 > 0:42:50good looks and a pleasant manner,
0:42:50 > 0:42:53can earn on average between 10% and 20% more than other people.
0:42:53 > 0:42:58Exceptionally attractive people earn lots more.
0:42:58 > 0:43:01Rihanna has exploited her good looks
0:43:01 > 0:43:06and has been photographed in public wearing semi-nude dresses.
0:43:06 > 0:43:09Why do we treat lesser-earning women differently?
0:43:09 > 0:43:13Just like men, women should be able to earn their living
0:43:13 > 0:43:15doing whatever they want,
0:43:15 > 0:43:19including modelling, stripping, lap dancing,
0:43:19 > 0:43:21Page 3 photoshoots, burlesque shows.
0:43:21 > 0:43:24Women should be allowed to exploit their erotic capital
0:43:24 > 0:43:32in exactly the same way men already do.
0:43:37 > 0:43:41STUDIO: And Catherine Hakim joins me now.
0:43:41 > 0:43:45Last night, at the BAFTA awards, all the female stars turned out in
0:43:45 > 0:43:50black, to show solidarity with the movement against sexual harassment.
0:43:50 > 0:43:54Are you on the wrong side of the argument here, especially with the
0:43:54 > 0:44:02metoo campaign?It is fashionable to join this campaign, this #metoo
0:44:02 > 0:44:06campaign, it is fashionable to wear black to show solidarity but
0:44:06 > 0:44:10actually, it is a backlash towards patriarchal and puritanical
0:44:10 > 0:44:17attitudes towards erotic sexuality, towards...Isn't it a backlash
0:44:17 > 0:44:22against men having dominated in semi-spheres of life and women
0:44:22 > 0:44:27feeling ill treated, in gender pay or sexual harassment?I won't go
0:44:27 > 0:44:32into the pay gap, that is being dealt with by legislation in Britain
0:44:32 > 0:44:36and North America, but...You said it was against women exploiting good
0:44:36 > 0:44:40looks, I say it is a backlash against the way they have been
0:44:40 > 0:44:43treated in various spheres, whether it is at work or outside in the
0:44:43 > 0:44:49domestic sphere.People have changed their attitudes towards the way they
0:44:49 > 0:44:53treat women in public life, there is no question there has been a huge
0:44:53 > 0:44:57change there. An awful lot of the complaints today are about
0:44:57 > 0:45:01historical things, about things that happened ten fifth, ten, 20 years
0:45:01 > 0:45:07ago.You don't think it is right to address those?It is not the time
0:45:07 > 0:45:11banned worth the time and effort that is being spent on it, what we
0:45:11 > 0:45:15should look at is the way forward in the 21st-century, erotic capital
0:45:15 > 0:45:21still has value, in fact, in my book, I show that it has more value
0:45:21 > 0:45:25in the 21st-century than it did in the past, so we will have an
0:45:25 > 0:45:28increasing problem of what is called sexual harassment which is a lot of
0:45:28 > 0:45:32the time men paying attention to women because they are attracted to
0:45:32 > 0:45:37women.What do you say to that, it is not worth the time being spent,
0:45:37 > 0:45:42to look at and investigate historic cases of sexual harassment or where
0:45:42 > 0:45:45women have been exploited and actually, because of some of the
0:45:45 > 0:45:48campaigns running now, it will lead to a further backlash of sexual
0:45:48 > 0:45:53harassment.I think what the #metoo campaign has its boast is that
0:45:53 > 0:45:58sexual harassment and abuse of women is still going on in every industry,
0:45:58 > 0:46:04in every sector of our society today, it was worse 40, 50 years ago
0:46:04 > 0:46:09but it is still going on in Westminster, in journalism, in all
0:46:09 > 0:46:13sectors, and I believe that the need to campaign is a backlash to the
0:46:13 > 0:46:17object of vocation of women, to the perception of women as passive
0:46:17 > 0:46:23creatures on the sidelines of men's. What about Rhianna, what about...
0:46:23 > 0:46:30She goes on to the stage half naked. Nothing against sexual empowerment,
0:46:30 > 0:46:36the problem I have with the Grid girls, with the darts, women are
0:46:36 > 0:46:40seen as passive creatures, the men are daredevil races and sportsmen.
0:46:40 > 0:46:45Little boys and girls watching that teaches them something terrible
0:46:45 > 0:46:52about the society.-- #metoo campaign.
0:46:53 > 0:46:57Is there a difference between women being able to capitalise their
0:46:57 > 0:47:02erotic capital, as you call it. Questions about whether Grid girls
0:47:02 > 0:47:07and darts walk on girls should be banned. Why shouldn't they be?
0:47:07 > 0:47:11Beauty has always had an erotic element. The reason David Beckham
0:47:11 > 0:47:15earns millions from posing naked is because there is an erotic element
0:47:15 > 0:47:19there. It's a very puritanical reaction to say women shouldn't earn
0:47:19 > 0:47:26money by being beautiful and attractive, decorating and being
0:47:26 > 0:47:31involved in public events, sports events and other events.Except, how
0:47:31 > 0:47:34many public events are that way you see men and boys being decorative in
0:47:34 > 0:47:40the same way. We don't have Grid boys or walk on boys in darts.
0:47:40 > 0:47:44Perhaps we should have them. George Clooney has no compunction at all
0:47:44 > 0:47:49about earning millions from the fact that he decorates adverts for copy
0:47:49 > 0:47:59machines. We -- coffee machines. We allow men to do it.Do you accept
0:47:59 > 0:48:02that hasn't been a tradition in the past of allowing boys and men to be
0:48:02 > 0:48:06exposed in the same way as women and girls?We see more and more of it
0:48:06 > 0:48:12today.And you think it's a good thing?I think it's equalising.I
0:48:12 > 0:48:15think we do treat George Clooney differently when advertising
0:48:15 > 0:48:21products than we do with other Hollywood stars. In Caitlin Moran's
0:48:21 > 0:48:26book, how to make a woman, she says the basic tenet of whether sexism is
0:48:26 > 0:48:31happening is whether the men are having to do it. Our men walking on
0:48:31 > 0:48:37female sports stars, do they wave flight smack as women drive past in
0:48:37 > 0:48:41Formula 1 cars? They are not, because men are not systematically
0:48:41 > 0:48:44and routinely objectified in society.Why should women be
0:48:44 > 0:48:48prevented from using their good looks to earn decent money in
0:48:48 > 0:48:53Formula 1 and darts competitions?I believe in a free society and that
0:48:53 > 0:48:56it's up to each individual on how they want to dress, how they don't
0:48:56 > 0:49:00want to dress and what they want to do within the parameters of the law,
0:49:00 > 0:49:05there should always be respected and civility towards one another. When I
0:49:05 > 0:49:13go to sports events, I want to see brilliant sportswomen...Should be
0:49:13 > 0:49:16glamour girls be dropped?I think it's up to each organisation to
0:49:16 > 0:49:20determine what is right for them. It's not up to me as a politician to
0:49:20 > 0:49:23regulate what sporting organisations should do. There should always be
0:49:23 > 0:49:27respected and civility but it's up to each sporting organisation to
0:49:27 > 0:49:30determine how they run themselves. Would you accept there is a
0:49:30 > 0:49:34difference between George Clooney, David Beckham and Rihanna, who do
0:49:34 > 0:49:39what they do from a position of power and high levels of income, and
0:49:39 > 0:49:43it's not the same as men and women who are earning far less and doing
0:49:43 > 0:49:49it to survive?No, I don't think there is a difference. Everybody who
0:49:49 > 0:49:53works is working for an income, whether it's high or low. I don't
0:49:53 > 0:49:58think we should treat people who are less famous than David Beckham and
0:49:58 > 0:50:01George Clooney as being inferior people who are unable to make their
0:50:01 > 0:50:04own choices about how they want to earn their living and what they want
0:50:04 > 0:50:09to do with their lives. We are infantilising women at the moment. I
0:50:09 > 0:50:12am writing a book on sexual politics, and one of the key themes
0:50:12 > 0:50:16that seems to come up again and again is women are being
0:50:16 > 0:50:20infantilised as if they are unable to make decisions about their lives,
0:50:20 > 0:50:23choose their occupations and make a calculation as to whether they want
0:50:23 > 0:50:27to be a stripper or not, whether they want to earn a lot of money in
0:50:27 > 0:50:34just one night, which the they might spend a whole month earning as a
0:50:34 > 0:50:38shelf filler. That's a choice women have to make. And they might have a
0:50:38 > 0:50:42huge advantage if they have good looks and they can exploit that. On
0:50:42 > 0:50:45average women are a lot more attractive than men, and that's a
0:50:45 > 0:50:49permanent factor, seems to me. Rehman Chishti, what do you say to
0:50:49 > 0:50:55that?!I thought my youthful looks were going pretty well!
0:50:55 > 0:50:57It's been well over 18 months since Britain took
0:50:57 > 0:50:59the momentous decision to leave the European Union.
0:50:59 > 0:51:02But judging by the number of new groups being set up arguing
0:51:02 > 0:51:05the pros and cons of leaving the EU you'd be forgiven for thinking
0:51:05 > 0:51:08that the decision hasn't necessarily been settled for good.
0:51:08 > 0:51:10Today sees the launch of a new anti-Brexit party called
0:51:10 > 0:51:14Renew which has reportedly been getting advice from MPs in
0:51:14 > 0:51:22Emmanuel Macron's En Marche party.
0:51:26 > 0:51:29As well as Renew, who we saw there, a group of pro-Brexit academics has
0:51:29 > 0:51:32also been launched to provide expert analysis in favour of leaving
0:51:32 > 0:51:33the European Union.
0:51:33 > 0:51:35So, joining me now, is Dr Graham Gudgin,
0:51:35 > 0:51:37a Cambridge University economist and the editor of
0:51:37 > 0:51:38Briefings for Brexit.
0:51:38 > 0:51:40Aand we also have James Torrance, a co-founder of Renew -
0:51:40 > 0:51:43he's in central London where the party is being officially
0:51:43 > 0:51:44launched right now.
0:51:44 > 0:51:46James Torrance, why do we need an anti-Brexit party, when we already
0:51:46 > 0:51:49have the Liberal Democrats and the Green Party?The SNP are not
0:51:49 > 0:51:51national and the Liberal Democrats have been widely discredited. The
0:51:51 > 0:51:53Green Party are very focused on a particular range of issues as well
0:51:53 > 0:51:58as Brexit. We need a party to provide an anti-Brexit message that
0:51:58 > 0:52:02is rooted in pragmatic and centrist policies that fix the problems in
0:52:02 > 0:52:06society rather than create new ones. I have to apologise because the
0:52:06 > 0:52:11quality of the lying to you is not very good. We will try again. -- the
0:52:11 > 0:52:19quality of the line to you. This is a little that the video of Renew
0:52:19 > 0:52:23that you have released.
0:52:23 > 0:52:26Hello, my name is James, I'm an accountant from London.
0:52:26 > 0:52:28Hi, I'm Yuki, I'm a junior doctor here in London.
0:52:28 > 0:52:29I'm Oliver.
0:52:29 > 0:52:30I'm a small-business owner.
0:52:30 > 0:52:32I have a consultancy based in London.
0:52:32 > 0:52:34I'm Nicky Blair, and I live and work in south London.
0:52:34 > 0:52:37I'm really excited about Renew, partly because of its attitude
0:52:37 > 0:52:39towards Brexit and the belief it should be reversed.
0:52:39 > 0:52:41I thought you had to be involved in traditional politics,
0:52:41 > 0:52:44that somehow you needed some connection to do that.
0:52:44 > 0:52:46I'm really fed up with the way that I feel this country
0:52:46 > 0:52:48is being represented by our MPs in Parliament.
0:52:48 > 0:52:51Where I have felt disillusioned with politics and really didn't know
0:52:51 > 0:52:54where to base my vote at the last general election, it's heartening
0:52:54 > 0:52:56to me to feel that people are passionate enough to step
0:52:56 > 0:53:04forward and actually start again.
0:53:10 > 0:53:15That's the video on the home page of your website, James Torrance. Why is
0:53:15 > 0:53:18everybody featured from London?I think they were filmed right at the
0:53:18 > 0:53:23beginning of our escapade, and we started in London. The reality is
0:53:23 > 0:53:28today we have more than 200 candidates from all over the UK,
0:53:28 > 0:53:32from northern Scotland is to the south-west. We have a good cluster
0:53:32 > 0:53:36of candidates in the north-east. I think today we are a national party
0:53:36 > 0:53:41with rapid sensation all of the UK. People might ask why you didn't
0:53:41 > 0:53:48include people from all around the UK later. -- with representation all
0:53:48 > 0:53:55over the UK. Graham, why do we need pro Brexit academics?As many of the
0:53:55 > 0:54:02arguments haven't been made in the press. We want to count the
0:54:02 > 0:54:06accusations that Brexit supporters are ill educated, misinformed,
0:54:06 > 0:54:12misled, or Lord help us, even sometimes racist.Isn't that an
0:54:12 > 0:54:16admission at the bounds of expert opinion in academia and elsewhere is
0:54:16 > 0:54:22very worried about Brexit and the likely economic consequences?I
0:54:22 > 0:54:28think what you say is true. The evidence suggests up to 90% of
0:54:28 > 0:54:31university academics support remain. The problem is, they get all the
0:54:31 > 0:54:36airtime and the arguments. And there are plenty of very senior academics
0:54:36 > 0:54:41and very experienced people in other areas of life who support Brexit,
0:54:41 > 0:54:45and their arguments have not got out very much. What we are trying to do
0:54:45 > 0:54:50is give a platform for those people and for those arguments.I take your
0:54:50 > 0:54:54point is that you feel they haven't had the air time, although we
0:54:54 > 0:54:59certainly do have people like you on on a regular basis talking about
0:54:59 > 0:55:02Brexit and its advantages, but you do accept it's a minority of your
0:55:02 > 0:55:08colleagues to support your views. Yes, but if you want to count heads,
0:55:08 > 0:55:13we have the referendum and we know the result. We are now in a part of
0:55:13 > 0:55:17the national debate in which we are trying to debate what is the best
0:55:17 > 0:55:21way forward. Now it's the quality of argument is that really count and we
0:55:21 > 0:55:25are trying to put forward high-quality arguments.You will
0:55:25 > 0:55:29have heard that experts at the civil service are saying Brexit will hit
0:55:29 > 0:55:34growth by up to 8% over the next 15 years and a free-trade deal would
0:55:34 > 0:55:40only add 0.2% to growth over the same period. Do you think that's the
0:55:40 > 0:55:44reason so many experts and academics believe the sums on Brexit don't add
0:55:44 > 0:55:49up.It's an important reason why people voted to remain. I think the
0:55:49 > 0:55:51polling shows that on the remains side at least, the economic
0:55:51 > 0:55:57consequences were the biggest factor. But myself and colleagues at
0:55:57 > 0:56:00Cambridge and Ulster University in Northern Ireland have been looking
0:56:00 > 0:56:05at it very carefully and we are the only people in the UK who fully
0:56:05 > 0:56:10represented the analysis of the Treasury and OECD, and we find them
0:56:10 > 0:56:13deeply flawed, greatly exaggerated on the negative side, and we are in
0:56:13 > 0:56:17a situation where we had the leaked report last week that again gave
0:56:17 > 0:56:20negative figures, but we're not told who produced the figures, or how the
0:56:20 > 0:56:24analysis was done. It was essentially a secret report,
0:56:24 > 0:56:29completely unsatisfactorily. Presumably it was commissioned by
0:56:29 > 0:56:33the government aren't done by the civil service. Back to James
0:56:33 > 0:56:36Torrance, how do you respond to the assertion that there are many
0:56:36 > 0:56:43Remainers Mac and remain sporting groups who treat leave voters like
0:56:43 > 0:56:48they are stupid.I don't believe that at all. It's mainly leave
0:56:48 > 0:56:52voters who generally repeat that. We take the concerns of leave voters
0:56:52 > 0:56:56very seriously, which is one of the reasons we believe a new party is
0:56:56 > 0:56:58the right answer. There are many problems that exist in this country
0:56:58 > 0:57:02that need to be resolved, but we think Brexit is a poor way of
0:57:02 > 0:57:05addressing it and will ultimately make it worse.There are reports in
0:57:05 > 0:57:09the press saying one of your leaders walked out in the press conference.
0:57:09 > 0:57:15Is that true, what happened?That was me, actually! I came out of the
0:57:15 > 0:57:18press conference to give this interview!LAUGHTER
0:57:18 > 0:57:26That's hilarious. That clears that one up. Just before we go, you said
0:57:26 > 0:57:29the purpose of your website is to fight the propaganda that dismisses
0:57:29 > 0:57:37leave voters. Do you have people like the Renew party and anti-Brexit
0:57:37 > 0:57:41parties in mind when you say that?I think we have the media in general
0:57:41 > 0:57:46and politics in general.I am pleased to hear what James has just
0:57:46 > 0:57:51said, but that's clearly not the norm on the media. We have had
0:57:51 > 0:57:55hundreds and hundreds of responses since we set up this website 24
0:57:55 > 0:58:00hours ago, largely from people who say they feel they have been
0:58:00 > 0:58:04ignored, marginalised, and maligned, and how glad they are to see there
0:58:04 > 0:58:09are prominent academics who take the same view as they do.Very briefly,
0:58:09 > 0:58:13for a free trade with America to make up for lost trade with the EU,
0:58:13 > 0:58:19it would have to be an enormously in terms of what people think is
0:58:19 > 0:58:23actually achievable. Is it credible? There are two things in that
0:58:23 > 0:58:26question.You will have to be very brief because we are running out of
0:58:26 > 0:58:30time.We don't believe the gap is very big, and it will take time,
0:58:30 > 0:58:33there will be some gap, and we believe it will be relatively
0:58:33 > 0:58:37moderate and take some time to fill. Thank you for doing that briefly.
0:58:37 > 0:58:43Thank you to both of you. The answer to our quiz now, which politician
0:58:43 > 0:58:46did Morrissey criticise, Nicola Sturgeon, David Cameron, Theresa May
0:58:46 > 0:58:54or Jeremy Corbyn?It was Nicola Sturgeon, well done.We will be back
0:58:54 > 0:59:01tomorrow at noon. Goodbye.