0:00:39 > 0:00:42Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:44 > 0:00:48The Prime Minister's country retreat is the scene for a gathering
0:00:48 > 0:00:51of Theresa May and some of her key ministers today,
0:00:51 > 0:00:53as they meet to thrash out
0:00:53 > 0:01:00a negotiating position on Brexit.
0:01:00 > 0:01:05Net migration to the UK has fallen but is still well
0:01:05 > 0:01:06above the government's target at 244,000.
0:01:06 > 0:01:09We'll be looking at the detail.
0:01:09 > 0:01:10We know Michael Gove loves animals,
0:01:10 > 0:01:13but which party is winning the policy battle when it comes
0:01:13 > 0:01:14to pets and animal welfare?
0:01:14 > 0:01:17And text messages are old hat,
0:01:17 > 0:01:22we'll be looking at the latest must-have technology
0:01:22 > 0:01:28for MPs who want to keep their plots private!
0:01:28 > 0:01:30All that in the next hour
0:01:30 > 0:01:35and with us for the whole of the programme today
0:01:35 > 0:01:38isFaiza Shaheen.
0:01:38 > 0:01:39She's an economist, writer,
0:01:39 > 0:01:40activist and director
0:01:40 > 0:01:43of a think-tank called the Centre for Labour and Social Studies.
0:01:43 > 0:01:44Welcome to the show.
0:01:44 > 0:01:45First today.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47The EU Exit and Trade (Strategy and Negotiation)
0:01:47 > 0:01:48sub-committee is the snappy title(!)
0:01:48 > 0:01:50for the meeting of Theresa May's cabinet ministers today
0:01:50 > 0:01:56to hammer out an agreed approach to Brexit.
0:01:56 > 0:02:01Key ministers who don't always see eye-to-eye on the issue,
0:02:01 > 0:02:07like Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson and Chancellor Philip Hammond, will
0:02:07 > 0:02:15be closeted in the wood-panelled Tudor splendour
0:02:16 > 0:02:18of the Prime Minister's country retreat of Chequers.
0:02:18 > 0:02:20And there's clearly something in the air.
0:02:20 > 0:02:22Because we also hear this morning that Jeremy Corbyn is planning
0:02:22 > 0:02:25to set out Labour's new position on Brexit at a speech
0:02:25 > 0:02:26early next week.
0:02:26 > 0:02:28Exciting times for people like our assistant political
0:02:28 > 0:02:30editorNorman Smith.
0:02:30 > 0:02:34I am sure you would like to be a fly on the wall but will Unity break out
0:02:34 > 0:02:38at the end of this marathon summit? It may not be peace in our time but
0:02:38 > 0:02:41there will have to be in agreement, the option of no deal is so
0:02:41 > 0:02:46catastrophic for the government, is it would suggest divisions are so
0:02:46 > 0:02:50profound, that any sort of agreement is beyond Theresa May, and the
0:02:50 > 0:02:54message it would send out to EU negotiators is frankly, we are all
0:02:54 > 0:02:58over the place and have not a clue what we want, so there must be some
0:02:58 > 0:03:04sort of arrangement, over the past few weeks, gradually, slowly,
0:03:04 > 0:03:08incrementally, she has been seeking to whittle away the areas of
0:03:08 > 0:03:12disagreement, to refine and refined those areas where ministers are
0:03:12 > 0:03:16seemingly locked in conflict. That said, I'm pretty sure that at the
0:03:16 > 0:03:21end of the day, it is going to be a deal that involves some fairly high
0:03:21 > 0:03:28wire verbal gymnastics to keep all parties on fold. The gap is the
0:03:28 > 0:03:33schism that we have seen since the referendum, those that believe the
0:03:33 > 0:03:37absolute priority in negotiations must be trade and securing continued
0:03:37 > 0:03:42access to the single market, without vast amounts of border controls and
0:03:42 > 0:03:48tariffs. And those who have prioritised sovereignty, taking back
0:03:48 > 0:03:51control, giving ourselves the freedom to straight a trade deal,
0:03:51 > 0:03:54that tension still remains. There will have to be some form of
0:03:54 > 0:03:58language to try to bridge that. Let's talk about the labour
0:03:58 > 0:04:03position, we have been told there is going to be a speech by Jeremy
0:04:03 > 0:04:09Corbyn, how much can we expect in terms of a new line, a
0:04:09 > 0:04:13clarification, on Labour's position regarding negotiations?Labour's
0:04:13 > 0:04:19position is somewhat fluid is the honest truth, and work in progress.
0:04:19 > 0:04:22When you talk to Shadow Cabinet members they all seem to be of the
0:04:22 > 0:04:26view that gradually, slowly, incrementally, the Labour Party is
0:04:26 > 0:04:29heading off towards the land called customs union, in other words, it
0:04:29 > 0:04:35will end in a position where it will back the customs union or a customs
0:04:35 > 0:04:39union, the key difference between it and the Conservative Party. They are
0:04:39 > 0:04:42not there yet, key and and influential figures like John
0:04:42 > 0:04:47McDonnell do not like the idea, and Jeremy Corbyn has not signed up on
0:04:47 > 0:04:51the dotted line to that, but that is the view that that is inevitably
0:04:51 > 0:04:57where they will end up and why that matters is, that is a position which
0:04:57 > 0:05:01Tory Remainers could back, there is plenty of Tory Remainers who think
0:05:01 > 0:05:07it is daft of Theresa May to roll out the option of a customs union
0:05:07 > 0:05:12remaining in a customs union. -- rule out. If Labour backed a customs
0:05:12 > 0:05:16union and Tory Remainers backed a customs union, then Theresa May
0:05:16 > 0:05:19could yet be defeated on the issue. Thank you very much.
0:05:19 > 0:05:22We're joined now by two MPs with rather different view
0:05:22 > 0:05:27of life after Brexit,
0:05:27 > 0:05:32it's the ConservativePeter Bone
0:05:32 > 0:05:35and Labour'sRupa Huq.
0:05:35 > 0:05:38Let's look at the fallout from the transition debate and what will
0:05:38 > 0:05:43happen to EU citizens, what do you think will happen to the status of
0:05:43 > 0:05:48EU citizens who arrived in Britain after we have left in March, 2019.
0:05:48 > 0:05:57Good morning.Good afternoon.400 days until we leave this dreadful
0:05:57 > 0:06:03European Union superstate.
0:06:04 > 0:06:07We decided that anybody here before the referendum has the right to
0:06:07 > 0:06:10stay, and that we would have a new immigration policy afterwards, now
0:06:10 > 0:06:15it seems to transpire that it will be people who arrived after the 29th
0:06:15 > 0:06:19of March who will be subject to new immigration policy which we have not
0:06:19 > 0:06:23yet decided in Parliament what that will be.Theresa May has said that
0:06:23 > 0:06:28it will differ, rights of those will differ but the EU has rejected that
0:06:28 > 0:06:32and is asking for full rights for any EU citizens who arrive after
0:06:32 > 0:06:41March, 2019. Would you accept a climb-down?A few things about the
0:06:41 > 0:06:45referendum which we know work eat, one of the top ones, ending free
0:06:45 > 0:06:48movement, making our own laws in our own countries, not giving billions
0:06:48 > 0:06:52of pounds each year to the EU, if any of those are broken, we have
0:06:52 > 0:06:57lost faith in the British people. I don't think that is the case, I
0:06:57 > 0:07:00think the Prime Minister has said there will be a registration scheme
0:07:00 > 0:07:04and new arrangements will apply in due course.During that transition
0:07:04 > 0:07:07period, that is what we are talking about, a government source is quoted
0:07:07 > 0:07:11as saying, expect the UK to back down on different rights for EU
0:07:11 > 0:07:16citizens who arrive after March, 2019, in the face of resistance from
0:07:16 > 0:07:20Brussels. Would you accept and expect a climb-down from the
0:07:20 > 0:07:24government for EU citizens during that period?The government
0:07:24 > 0:07:29spokesman... What has he said on the record? A government source
0:07:29 > 0:07:35quoted... Yes, and those things... (!) would you accept a climb-down?
0:07:35 > 0:07:40It is there then... They have voted to end free movement. Yes we cannot
0:07:40 > 0:07:43have free movement.The transition deal is one thing, the Labour
0:07:43 > 0:07:46position, what are you expecting Jeremy Corbyn to say when he gives
0:07:46 > 0:07:50his speech on Monday?I don't know what will come from his mouth. There
0:07:50 > 0:07:54will be a speech on Monday. A transition period is responsible and
0:07:54 > 0:07:58sensible, Labour called for that, there has been a change overnight,
0:07:58 > 0:08:05sneaked into the ministers red boxes, now, the government wants a
0:08:05 > 0:08:10different appearance... The EU has rejected not only the freedom of
0:08:10 > 0:08:15movement... The government is now saying no changes to freedom of
0:08:15 > 0:08:18movement, and they want 18 months. The period of this transition is
0:08:18 > 0:08:22changing. It shows how weak and divided they are. The fact this away
0:08:22 > 0:08:29day is happening at all is to bang their heads together.On that basis,
0:08:29 > 0:08:33what... What is Labour's position? We are not fixated by an exact
0:08:33 > 0:08:37number of months or time period but we think it should be as long as
0:08:37 > 0:08:40necessary, I think it should be as long as necessary, businesses want
0:08:40 > 0:08:44certainty.The customs union, should Labour be saying clearly, Britain
0:08:44 > 0:08:49has to stay part of a customs union if not the customs union.We want
0:08:49 > 0:08:54something that replicates the benefits of a customs union, I would
0:08:54 > 0:08:58like it to be the customs union, but the leadership position is that we
0:08:58 > 0:09:03want something that is the benefits...Saying you want the
0:09:03 > 0:09:06benefits of remaining part of some sort of alignment with the EU is not
0:09:06 > 0:09:10the same as saying we want to remain and would negotiate to remain with a
0:09:10 > 0:09:14customs union, John McDonnell has said all options will be open.
0:09:14 > 0:09:19Cutting off our nose to spite our face, these options are still on the
0:09:19 > 0:09:23table... Yes, same with the single market, we want to retain the
0:09:23 > 0:09:27benefits of that.Retain the benefits, would you like the Labour
0:09:27 > 0:09:32leadership to say we should be part of the single market?Personally,
0:09:32 > 0:09:39yes, there are some technicalities about whether we go down the EFTA
0:09:39 > 0:09:42route or not, the minister replying in the debate yesterday said that
0:09:42 > 0:09:46they will not change course, they will not consider alternatives even
0:09:46 > 0:09:51if there was no deal, so they are carrying on with this crazy position
0:09:51 > 0:09:55that we have which is quite unclear. You are close to the leadership,
0:09:55 > 0:09:58would you like to hear Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell state clearly on
0:09:58 > 0:10:03Monday or at some point soon, that Labour will back strain in the
0:10:03 > 0:10:07single market and the customs union? I think the place where we start on
0:10:07 > 0:10:11this is what it means for people and inequality between regions and jobs
0:10:11 > 0:10:16and in that case, the customs union makes a lot more sense. The single
0:10:16 > 0:10:22market is tricky, we will not have a seat at the table, there is a big
0:10:22 > 0:10:26issue about people voting to have more control. It is more of a tricky
0:10:26 > 0:10:30issue but the customs union, in terms of the impact on people's
0:10:30 > 0:10:34lives, and I am glad that Jeremy Corbyn has come out and said the
0:10:34 > 0:10:38support of a customs union as well but I think it is completely
0:10:38 > 0:10:41practical and logical to think about what is the end point, and that is
0:10:41 > 0:10:46what the Labour leadership is doing right now.You would not accept
0:10:46 > 0:10:48Britain being part of a customs union, with the European Union, but
0:10:48 > 0:10:53to go back to that transition period before we get back to the end state,
0:10:53 > 0:10:58what did you make of the phase, -- phrase, transition will take as long
0:10:58 > 0:11:04as it takes.We might like to call it a period of implementation.How
0:11:04 > 0:11:09long should it take?The Primus has said that the implementation period
0:11:09 > 0:11:12will be time limited but if it can be shortened, so be it. If we can do
0:11:12 > 0:11:18things earlier, and it suits us and the European Union...If it goes
0:11:18 > 0:11:22over two years?The Prime Minister has said that it will be
0:11:22 > 0:11:26time-limited.It could still be over in a two-year period?I think it
0:11:26 > 0:11:30will be the end of the budgetary period, the end of 2020, which is
0:11:30 > 0:11:35what the EU once, if we can do it earlier, fine.If you were at
0:11:35 > 0:11:40Chequers, what would you be saying to the Prime Minister?I would be
0:11:40 > 0:11:43congratulating them on what they are doing and I would tell people to be
0:11:43 > 0:11:48a little more upbeat and cheerful. The Chancellor, for example, he's
0:11:48 > 0:11:52such a dour, sort of fellow, trying to get all of the figures right. He
0:11:52 > 0:11:56should be much more upbeat and saying, this is a great thing for
0:11:56 > 0:12:01Britain, he coined the phrase, we are all Brexiteers now. A little
0:12:01 > 0:12:04more upbeat.If you think the Prime Minister has done well, why hold a
0:12:04 > 0:12:10summit?It is quite a good idea, when you have cabinet government, to
0:12:10 > 0:12:15involve the government(!) and get agreement? And move things on. I
0:12:15 > 0:12:20know that we are on the 21st revision of the Labour Party policy,
0:12:20 > 0:12:25you cannot even...We have been clear!Credit to Jeremy Corbyn, he
0:12:25 > 0:12:29has resisted those people that want to try to rerun the referendum, the
0:12:29 > 0:12:34situation is, what the government is doing, all its timescales, made the
0:12:34 > 0:12:38first agreement.Why the summit, if it is all going so well, and if
0:12:38 > 0:12:42there has been so much progress, why is there a summit where ministers
0:12:42 > 0:12:48will be locked in together all day until...?It is going to go on late.
0:12:48 > 0:12:55When you have a cabinet, you talk about things, it might not be... Why
0:12:55 > 0:12:59not at Chequers, nice house, give them tea and Puffy, they will be
0:12:59 > 0:13:04very happy. Will you be disappointed if Jeremy Corbyn does not set out
0:13:04 > 0:13:09how to stay in the customs market on Monday, what will you do? -- give
0:13:09 > 0:13:16them tea and coffee, they will be very happy.At the moment, what we
0:13:16 > 0:13:20have, we are not in government, we have the worst of all worlds, if you
0:13:20 > 0:13:24are leave, these arrangements have been lengthened and lengthen, and we
0:13:24 > 0:13:27were not really that much in the EU in the first place, not in the
0:13:27 > 0:13:34single currency, only 60% in. It is the worst of all worlds, if you are
0:13:34 > 0:13:37a remain, they have sold out the European principles.What other
0:13:37 > 0:13:41soundings you have had that there will be a shift?They're already has
0:13:41 > 0:13:46been a shift, we are opposing the EU withdrawal bill, it gives carte
0:13:46 > 0:13:51blanche, it is a rubbish piece of... You are stopping EU laws being made
0:13:51 > 0:13:55into British laws, to come into effect immediately after we leave
0:13:55 > 0:13:59the EU, trying to block the current legislation from coming in, that was
0:13:59 > 0:14:05an absurd position, did not make any sense whatsoever. It was done by
0:14:05 > 0:14:09you...Party political reasons.Let her respond. Lord Carlile in the
0:14:09 > 0:14:17Lords said, we are heading into the non-impact assessment feature.
0:14:17 > 0:14:21non-impact assessment feature. He said that it is a suicide note, this
0:14:21 > 0:14:28non-assessed impact future that we are going into...The Labour Party
0:14:28 > 0:14:33view is that this is a suicide note?
0:14:34 > 0:14:4062 of your colleagues supported this. Holding a gun to her head, the
0:14:40 > 0:14:44whole country, disturbing that it was the government's anti-corruption
0:14:44 > 0:14:52champion who headed that up.Lord Carlile is now a crossbencher.
0:14:52 > 0:14:56Former Lib Dem... Just for clarification. Thank you very much.
0:14:58 > 0:15:00Now it's time for our daily quiz.
0:15:00 > 0:15:02The question for today is all about reports that the group
0:15:02 > 0:15:05messaging application WhatsApp is falling out of a favour
0:15:05 > 0:15:06among Conservative MPs because their messages
0:15:06 > 0:15:08are finding their way into the papers.
0:15:08 > 0:15:09Heaven forbid.
0:15:09 > 0:15:11So what are some of them said to be using instead?
0:15:11 > 0:15:14Is it a) Invisible ink?
0:15:14 > 0:15:19b) A pager?
0:15:19 > 0:15:23c) A "military-grade encyrption" app called Confide?
0:15:23 > 0:15:25Or d) passing messages to each other in St James's Park?
0:15:25 > 0:15:28At the end of the show Faiza will attempt to give
0:15:28 > 0:15:29us the correct answer.
0:15:29 > 0:15:31The latest migration figures have been published this morning -
0:15:31 > 0:15:33as usual, they tell a number of different stories
0:15:33 > 0:15:36about the number of people coming to and leaving the UK,
0:15:36 > 0:15:38so let's look at some of the numbers.
0:15:38 > 0:15:40This time last year, net migration stood at 273,000.
0:15:40 > 0:15:46Now, it's fallen to 244,000.
0:15:46 > 0:15:46Now, it's fallen to 244,000.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49But the decrease of 29,000 is classed by the ONS
0:15:49 > 0:15:50as statistically insignificant.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53Net migration from the EU is currently at 90,000.
0:15:53 > 0:15:57And from outside the EU, it's 205,000.
0:15:57 > 0:16:00A total of 52,000 British nationals left the UK
0:16:00 > 0:16:05in the year to September.
0:16:05 > 0:16:09The new immigration statistics come hot on the heels of a new release
0:16:09 > 0:16:13showing a marked slowdown in the final quarter
0:16:13 > 0:16:16of 2017 in the growth of EU nationals working in the UK.
0:16:16 > 0:16:20But the figure still grew by 101,000, to total 2.35 million EU
0:16:20 > 0:16:25nationals working here.
0:16:25 > 0:16:30By the last quarter of 2017, there was an absolute fall of 53,000
0:16:30 > 0:16:33in the number of working nationals from the EU Eight countries,
0:16:33 > 0:16:38like Poland, that joined in 2004.
0:16:38 > 0:16:41And an absolute fall of 68,000 non-UK and non-EU
0:16:41 > 0:16:43nationals working here.
0:16:43 > 0:16:46Well, to dig into these numbers, let's talk to the BBC's head
0:16:46 > 0:16:49of statistics, Robert Cuffe.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52of statistics, Robert Cuffe.
0:16:52 > 0:16:56Thank you for joining us. Can you explain how reliable these figures
0:16:56 > 0:17:01are?They're based on a survey with all of the uncertainties that it
0:17:01 > 0:17:05includes. A migrant is somebody who is going to stay in their new
0:17:05 > 0:17:10country for at least a year and the ONS ask people at random coming
0:17:10 > 0:17:12through the airports and ports where they come from, how long they plan
0:17:12 > 0:17:16to start for and why they're coming. So it is a survey, just like an
0:17:16 > 0:17:21opinion poll, so there is a margin of error, around us or -40,000 on
0:17:21 > 0:17:25the headline figure. That is why the degrees of 29,000 is not
0:17:25 > 0:17:28statistically significant. There is also a question of definition. A
0:17:28 > 0:17:33migrant is someone who is going to stay for a year. We ask them how
0:17:33 > 0:17:38long they are planning to stay - and plans change. The survey is checked
0:17:38 > 0:17:41back against the census and national insurance and visas and other
0:17:41 > 0:17:45things. But it is still best not to read too much into just one quarter
0:17:45 > 0:17:50of data unless the number is really striking or is consistent with a
0:17:50 > 0:17:55pattern we have seen over while. That basis, what Amir Khan we read
0:17:55 > 0:17:59into it?Well, there is no real change in the headline figure, but
0:17:59 > 0:18:01that is masking something more interesting underneath. What we are
0:18:01 > 0:18:07seeing is a different picture for EU migrants and non-EU migrants. For EU
0:18:07 > 0:18:10migrants since the Brexit referendum we have seen a decline which is
0:18:10 > 0:18:16continuing apace. It is down from about 106 to 5000 to 95,000 net last
0:18:16 > 0:18:21year. And that is statistically significant. That is being slightly
0:18:21 > 0:18:25masked by an increase in non-EU migration, which is up by about
0:18:25 > 0:18:2940000 and if you add them together they cancel each other out a little
0:18:29 > 0:18:32bit. But there is different things going on for each of them. It is a
0:18:32 > 0:18:37consistent pattern overtime for EU migration but for non-EU, the ONS
0:18:37 > 0:18:42say it came down a little bit last year to do with rebel studying at
0:18:42 > 0:18:45not being scrubbed up in the visas, and is now back up to the level it
0:18:45 > 0:18:48was at before, so it is hard to know whether that is going to be a trend
0:18:48 > 0:18:52into the future.Thank you very much.
0:18:52 > 0:18:55We're joined now by Alp Mehmet, the vice-chair of Migration Watch
0:18:55 > 0:18:57UK, and of course my guest of the day, Faiza
0:18:57 > 0:18:58Shaheen is still here.
0:18:58 > 0:19:02Her think-tank have just published a report arguing Britain is an
0:19:02 > 0:19:05overworked and underpaid nation. This country has added a population
0:19:05 > 0:19:10almost the size of a city of the size of Southampton last year - is
0:19:10 > 0:19:15that a problem?It is really hard for me to get involved in this about
0:19:15 > 0:19:19the mum numbers because I think there is a broader issue here of
0:19:19 > 0:19:21immigration and immigrants being scapegoated year after year for a
0:19:21 > 0:19:27number of problems. We often hear issues of wages blamed on
0:19:27 > 0:19:30immigration, issues of housing... And the truth is it has been bad
0:19:30 > 0:19:35government policy and more employer exportation of workers.But do the
0:19:35 > 0:19:38numbers matter, are they not important, if you are a government
0:19:38 > 0:19:42or even if you are a member of the voting public, you want to see the
0:19:42 > 0:19:46figures of what is going up and what is coming down?We have made the
0:19:46 > 0:19:50numbers matter because we have told people for so long that this is the
0:19:50 > 0:19:53crown as to... If you stop immigration, then other problems
0:19:53 > 0:19:57will get sorted. So we have told people they matter so we fixate on
0:19:57 > 0:20:01them, so that is no surprise. It is actually, attracting talent to this
0:20:01 > 0:20:05country is possibly the sign of an economy which is inviting people.
0:20:05 > 0:20:09But the end point here is, we need people in certain sectors. We have a
0:20:09 > 0:20:14history in this country of both, and it's looking in that historical
0:20:14 > 0:20:20context.
0:20:20 > 0:20:23context.There has been too much focus on the numbers and the
0:20:23 > 0:20:27government has made it that way in order to fit a political narrative -
0:20:27 > 0:20:30should they be more focus on fixing the problems of increasing
0:20:30 > 0:20:33population numbers as a result of immigration?I would argue that
0:20:33 > 0:20:39there hasn't been sufficient focus, frankly. You can't ignore the
0:20:39 > 0:20:42figures, a quarter of a million net, which has come down from over
0:20:42 > 0:20:51300,000. It is what that adds over a period to population, an increasing
0:20:51 > 0:20:53population at the present rate, we're talking about another 10
0:20:53 > 0:20:57million people in 25 years, 90% of which will be the result of
0:20:57 > 0:21:04immigration. You cannot go on that way. Going back to the figures with
0:21:04 > 0:21:08regard to EU nationals coming here to work, yes, the scale has come
0:21:08 > 0:21:13down, but there are still many more arriving than are leaving. And in
0:21:13 > 0:21:18fact, if you look at the numbers who were given national insurance cards
0:21:18 > 0:21:23last year, of half a million, the fall is really where they have come
0:21:23 > 0:21:26to look for work rather than come for work.And you want to turn
0:21:26 > 0:21:30hundreds of thousands of them away? I don't want to turn anyone away who
0:21:30 > 0:21:34has not a right to be here, or indeed doesn't qualify to come here.
0:21:34 > 0:21:39I am not about closing the doors and the gates and pulling up the
0:21:39 > 0:21:42drawbridge.But you want the numbers to come down by hundreds of
0:21:42 > 0:21:48thousands?We want reasonable... Even coming down by 100,000 we're
0:21:48 > 0:21:53still way above where we were 15-20 years ago. If you look at the net
0:21:53 > 0:21:57migration figure from the new, of 90,000, the latest one, that's
0:21:57 > 0:22:04actually double - double - what it was in 1997 overall.Do you agree
0:22:04 > 0:22:07with Diane Abbott that immigration, and the debate around immigration,
0:22:07 > 0:22:12she says, is still being used as a euphemism for race?No, no,, no. She
0:22:12 > 0:22:18is wrong now and she has always been wrong.Why?People like me, people
0:22:18 > 0:22:26who take heart in your programme daily, we're either first, second or
0:22:26 > 0:22:31third generation immigrants. Immigration will not stop. It is not
0:22:31 > 0:22:35racist to be concerned about the rate of migration.That is not what
0:22:35 > 0:22:40she was saying, though. I think the point is that too often, the way in
0:22:40 > 0:22:44which these immigration debates... And we hear it, scaremongering,
0:22:44 > 0:22:47these people are coming for abroad, often these people are cooking and
0:22:47 > 0:22:51cleaning and caring for our parents. No-one is saying that, you are
0:22:51 > 0:22:57saying that!That is what we hear just how would you explain, then,
0:22:57 > 0:23:00around the Brexit campaign and afterwards the uptake in the number
0:23:00 > 0:23:03of xenophobic racist attacks, for instance.But there is not
0:23:03 > 0:23:07necessarily the evidence to back that up?Actually there is a lot of
0:23:07 > 0:23:11evidence... Is disputed.But what I would say... There is no evidence at
0:23:11 > 0:23:15all, actually.The evidence about that is disputed. Are you choosing a
0:23:15 > 0:23:21political narrative that fits a policy, you agree with Diane Abbott
0:23:21 > 0:23:25that immigration is a good thing for this country and should continue at
0:23:25 > 0:23:28the levels that we have now? She said yesterday that in some
0:23:28 > 0:23:32political quarters, it is used, concern about immigration, as a
0:23:32 > 0:23:37euphemism for race - do you agree with that?Yeah, sometimes I think
0:23:37 > 0:23:42some people, not all people, use it as a way, the Nigel Farages of the
0:23:42 > 0:23:47world, as a way to play in and get to people's prejudices and to stoke
0:23:47 > 0:23:51that up. And that is not OK. The conversation we should be having is,
0:23:51 > 0:23:55given that we have shortages in some areas, given them a graphic changes,
0:23:55 > 0:23:59an ageing population, is how the demographic is of our society will
0:23:59 > 0:24:03change and how they have changed up to today and the positives of that,
0:24:03 > 0:24:07a multicultural society and something which reflects the Empire.
0:24:07 > 0:24:10Because the reason that people like me are here because of those
0:24:10 > 0:24:13historic links. So, this is not a conversation about being precise
0:24:13 > 0:24:18about this number or that number of that think about what this country
0:24:18 > 0:24:22needs, and work from that.That is exactly what we're saying just what
0:24:22 > 0:24:26we are also saying, though, not at the present scale, that is not in
0:24:26 > 0:24:30any one's interest. And I have to say that what Diane Abbott is saying
0:24:30 > 0:24:34is a device that has been used all along to close down debate on
0:24:34 > 0:24:39immigration. And that cannot happen. I mean, are you thinking about, for
0:24:39 > 0:24:43instance, and I have done research on this, the ways in which Eastern
0:24:43 > 0:24:46European immigration was exploited by employers who would play them off
0:24:46 > 0:24:51amongst the existing population - that was not the fault of the Polish
0:24:51 > 0:24:54people coming in, that was how temping agencies were using this
0:24:54 > 0:24:59device. So, what can we do about employers, agencies, allowing this
0:24:59 > 0:25:02exportation to happen?When the Romanians and Bulgarians were going
0:25:02 > 0:25:06to have free access to our employment market, that we were told
0:25:06 > 0:25:14would be a small number coming in, as we were in 2003. In fact, we
0:25:14 > 0:25:16forecast around 50,000, which is exactly what it is at the moment.
0:25:16 > 0:25:23You cannot say it's not going to happen, not plan on it and then when
0:25:23 > 0:25:27it does happen... Of course. And then say, oh, but it is a good
0:25:27 > 0:25:32thing.Looking at the scale, you say that immigration can't continue at
0:25:32 > 0:25:36the scale it has been at, but what do you say about the figures? They
0:25:36 > 0:25:40are mixed I accept about the number of nurses and health workers from
0:25:40 > 0:25:44the EU, they have fallen - are those not people that we need?There are
0:25:44 > 0:25:47also have people that we need, including nurses, and there is no
0:25:47 > 0:25:52reason why they should not continue to come.But the number is falling
0:25:52 > 0:25:55the number of EU nurses and health workers?Not because anybody is
0:25:55 > 0:25:59sending them away.You were talking about whether we need immigration -
0:25:59 > 0:26:03do we need that number of nurses?We should also be thinking about
0:26:03 > 0:26:09training our own nurses and doctors in a way that we haven't done.Is it
0:26:09 > 0:26:13prejudice, Faiza, to want any restriction on immigration?No, we
0:26:13 > 0:26:16are not in a situation where we can suddenly have open borders, given
0:26:16 > 0:26:20the inequality in the world more people would come here, and we have
0:26:20 > 0:26:25to manage that. But my point is that we fixate on a particular part of
0:26:25 > 0:26:28the equation, the evidence shows that the reasons why wages have been
0:26:28 > 0:26:32driven down in some sectors, why we have issues of housing, immigration
0:26:32 > 0:26:37is not the number one reason for that. And even people doing the
0:26:37 > 0:26:39research at the OECD or the World Bank will tell you that again and
0:26:39 > 0:26:44again.Migration plays far more into that then we have been given to
0:26:44 > 0:26:49believe.No, it is the lack of building houses.That has been
0:26:49 > 0:26:52successive governments. How do governments plan for large numbers
0:26:52 > 0:26:56of people which you can't predict necessarily coming to Britain to
0:26:56 > 0:26:59work, how could you build all of the schools and hospitals in time for
0:26:59 > 0:27:03waves of immigration?I agree that they didn't expect so many people to
0:27:03 > 0:27:09come after access they planned for that quite badly. And then they made
0:27:09 > 0:27:11the migration impact fund, which was the right thing to do to help those
0:27:11 > 0:27:15communities. We know that people were coming and paying in quite a
0:27:15 > 0:27:18lot in taxes but the communities were not ready with the schools etc.
0:27:18 > 0:27:22But that impact fund was cut by the Conservative government, and that is
0:27:22 > 0:27:25exactly the sort of thing that we need to do. But over time, even if
0:27:25 > 0:27:29we leave the EU, when we make trade deals with China and India at such
0:27:29 > 0:27:31a, we're still going to have immigration.No impact fund would
0:27:31 > 0:27:36ever be sufficient to cater for the sort of numbers that are coming in
0:27:36 > 0:27:44at the moment.Briefly, do you think there has been a Brexodus since that
0:27:44 > 0:27:48vote?That is one thing which very clearly HASN'T happened. Some have
0:27:48 > 0:27:53left but that was always happening anyway. When you look at the
0:27:53 > 0:27:57figures, more in fact are arriving than are leaving. If you look at
0:27:57 > 0:28:02those who are applying for British citizenship, at the moment it is
0:28:02 > 0:28:05something like 45,005 and 50,000 applying last year, so clearly
0:28:05 > 0:28:10there's a lot of people who don't want to leave.
0:28:10 > 0:28:13As you're a viewer of this show, you're probably very observant,
0:28:13 > 0:28:16so you might have noticed in recent months that the political parties
0:28:16 > 0:28:18have been talking quite a bit about animal welfare.
0:28:18 > 0:28:20So, is there a pattern to these pet-focused policies?
0:28:20 > 0:28:22Here's Ellie Price with her guide.
0:28:22 > 0:28:24There's a new turf war happening in British politics,
0:28:24 > 0:28:25and it's furry and cute.
0:28:25 > 0:28:27The Tories have been talking about
0:28:27 > 0:28:30this sort of thing rather a lot since the election, looking at
0:28:30 > 0:28:32whether a ban on third-party puppy sales would be a good idea.
0:28:32 > 0:28:35Meaning you could get a dog directly from a
0:28:35 > 0:28:38breeder or a dogs' home, but not from a pet shop.
0:28:38 > 0:28:40The party also announced tougher sentences on those who
0:28:40 > 0:28:42abuse animals...
0:28:42 > 0:28:45As well as cameras in every UK slaughterhouse.
0:28:45 > 0:28:47And a new bill to ensure that
0:28:47 > 0:28:53animal sentience - the idea that animals feel
0:28:53 > 0:28:55pain and suffering - is considered in all
0:28:55 > 0:28:57include wild animals.
0:28:57 > 0:28:59areas of domestic policy, and does include wild animals.
0:28:59 > 0:29:01Labour was accused of playing catch-up last week when it
0:29:01 > 0:29:03announced 50 policies it hoped would appeal
0:29:03 > 0:29:05announced 50 policies it hoped would appeal to people
0:29:05 > 0:29:07who owned cats and dogs, but not necessarily
0:29:07 > 0:29:09their own home.
0:29:09 > 0:29:11The party would look at plans to allow tenants to keep pets
0:29:11 > 0:29:13in rented accommodation as a given,
0:29:13 > 0:29:14unless landlords said there was
0:29:14 > 0:29:16evidence that the animal is causing a nuisance,
0:29:16 > 0:29:18and that might include some care homes, too.
0:29:18 > 0:29:20It would also look
0:29:20 > 0:29:24at ways of helping people on low incomes with vet bills, and require
0:29:24 > 0:29:26motorists to report an accident where an animal had been injured.
0:29:26 > 0:29:28Oh, and one more thing that could hit some
0:29:28 > 0:29:31voters in the stomach - a total ban on foie gras.
0:29:31 > 0:29:34Both parties have a raft of other measures dealing
0:29:34 > 0:29:37with wild and farm animals that our furry and feathered
0:29:37 > 0:29:39friends might be very
0:29:39 > 0:29:42grateful for - who said dog whistle politics was a bad thing?
0:29:42 > 0:29:50DOGS BARK
0:29:53 > 0:29:56Boom boom!
0:29:56 > 0:29:59We're joined now by the Conservative MP David Amess,
0:29:59 > 0:30:01he has a long track record of campaigning on animal welfare.
0:30:01 > 0:30:04And Luke Pollard, who is part of Labour's shadow environment team.
0:30:04 > 0:30:07George Orwell wrote a whole book about when animals get involved with
0:30:07 > 0:30:07socialism(!)
0:30:07 > 0:30:09about when animals get involved with socialism(!). Did not end well.It
0:30:09 > 0:30:14can do if politicians make the right choice, my postbag is full of animal
0:30:14 > 0:30:18welfare, it is right that we have combines a policy that looks at the
0:30:18 > 0:30:21full range of animal welfare concerns raised by members of the
0:30:21 > 0:30:25public, that is what we are consulting on at the moment.Is this
0:30:25 > 0:30:30vision of Jeremy Corbyn for cats, if we could call it that, free
0:30:30 > 0:30:37veterinary care for the poor, is it kind of a feline NHS?It is about
0:30:37 > 0:30:40recognising there is an awful lot of people that cannot afford basic pet
0:30:40 > 0:30:48care, that is leading to animal suffering.-- Corbynism for cats.We
0:30:48 > 0:30:52are trying to find out what can be done to make it more affordable, pet
0:30:52 > 0:30:56care, especially those on low income, so that we do not see animal
0:30:56 > 0:31:00suffering baked into society.Should the Conservatives support this? I
0:31:00 > 0:31:04celebrate that after 35 years, at long last, parliamentarians are
0:31:04 > 0:31:07genuinely interested in animal welfare. Were they not interested
0:31:07 > 0:31:12before?Not consistently, it was a small group of people, now, I am
0:31:12 > 0:31:16very glad that we are focusing, not just turning up for photo
0:31:16 > 0:31:21opportunities.There has been a Damascene conversion... Is that
0:31:21 > 0:31:25because Labour has been setting the agenda?For 13 years, Tony Blair who
0:31:25 > 0:31:31took the money from the animal welfare organisations in 1997, he
0:31:31 > 0:31:34promised an animal commission, a Royal commission, he promised so
0:31:34 > 0:31:41much, the only thing I reckon he ever did, in his life, was banned
0:31:41 > 0:31:46fox hunting.So it is you who has been playing catch up?Labour has
0:31:46 > 0:31:51been the party of animal welfare since... Come on! Look at what has
0:31:51 > 0:31:56happened since the election, last eight years, we have seen headlines
0:31:56 > 0:32:00but no consistency since the election, is publishing a full,
0:32:00 > 0:32:04comprehensive animal...That is not true.We published it on the Labour
0:32:04 > 0:32:09Party website and had 1600...When was it published?Think of February,
0:32:09 > 0:32:14last week...The Conservatives say they have been doing this since the
0:32:14 > 0:32:18election, they may have...They have been killing badgers.Come on,
0:32:18 > 0:32:23badger culling, come on.INAUDIBLE Micro bees have been banned, ivory
0:32:23 > 0:32:30has been banned.We are doing something about puppy farming, and
0:32:30 > 0:32:33the Labour Party are catching up and because they do not want to leave
0:32:33 > 0:32:36the European Union they are not going to be able to do all the
0:32:36 > 0:32:39things they are telling people. -- microbeads.What about the badger
0:32:39 > 0:32:42cull, can you ever be a compassionate Tory party when it
0:32:42 > 0:32:47comes to animal welfare if you continue with this?I'm not in
0:32:47 > 0:32:51favour of the Carl, Lorraine Platt, Conservative animal welfare
0:32:51 > 0:32:59foundation, she has actually been changed perceptions in general. --
0:32:59 > 0:33:07badger cull.The right to own a pet in rented property, is that about
0:33:07 > 0:33:11falling home ownership or something more it is a recognition, it is
0:33:11 > 0:33:15harder and harder to buy homes, that ownership is reserved for those that
0:33:15 > 0:33:19can afford their own home and so what we have said is that we will
0:33:19 > 0:33:22work with accommodation providers, and look at under what circumstances
0:33:22 > 0:33:28there can be a pet accommodation, if damage is done it should be paid by
0:33:28 > 0:33:32the tenant. How have landlords reacted?And awful lot of landlords
0:33:32 > 0:33:37want pets in their accommodation. Have you had any response from
0:33:37 > 0:33:41landlords?Landlords Association? Correspondence are in favour and
0:33:41 > 0:33:45against, they have said all these things, I think, when Michael Gove
0:33:45 > 0:33:50gets in trouble, new Nancy 's animal welfare policy, to make the
0:33:50 > 0:33:56headlines. We have published this to ask for opinions. -- he announces
0:33:56 > 0:33:59animal welfare policy. We will have a good cross-party consensus about
0:33:59 > 0:34:05animal welfare...Michael Gove does not have to promise anything, he is
0:34:05 > 0:34:08a Secretary of State who is delivering and if the Labour Party
0:34:08 > 0:34:11is genuine about animal welfare, they should not partisan reasons
0:34:11 > 0:34:14oppose everything he does, they should get behind him. It is
0:34:14 > 0:34:19fantastic what he is doing, after 35 years, I am glad that the House of
0:34:19 > 0:34:23Commons is focused on this, we should not be partisan about animal
0:34:23 > 0:34:27welfare, for goodness sakes, many people out there, animals are
0:34:27 > 0:34:32everything, animals are faithful, and they ask for nothing, other than
0:34:32 > 0:34:38a bit of love.Would you support tenants rights to own pets?I very
0:34:38 > 0:34:43much supports tenants owning pets, we can all think of examples where
0:34:43 > 0:34:47someone moves out of property and cannot take their dog with them, for
0:34:47 > 0:34:52people on their own, animals are everything.Do you think that is the
0:34:52 > 0:34:56case, action on lobsters, Foy Gras, fur farming, the rearing of game
0:34:56 > 0:35:04birds, do you think that is all a bit class war? -- Foie gras.We are
0:35:04 > 0:35:08an animal loving nation, it makes sense, the thing is, the main thing
0:35:08 > 0:35:11that we take from the Conservative Party, because of the manifesto last
0:35:11 > 0:35:15year, is that they were going to potentially bring back fox hunting,
0:35:15 > 0:35:19and that is the big thing people are hearing right now, it is
0:35:19 > 0:35:25interesting.Huge mistake, and over 60 of my colleagues would have
0:35:25 > 0:35:29opposed it.So it was a mistake to make it part of the manifesto?
0:35:29 > 0:35:36Absolutely.Talk about class war, that sent a big signal.What about
0:35:36 > 0:35:40the pet passport with Brexit?That is one of the uncertainties, we
0:35:40 > 0:35:46simply do not know at the moment. What you think should happen to the
0:35:46 > 0:35:51pet passport?I think it has been incredible, allowing people to be
0:35:51 > 0:35:53able to take their pets and animals over borders, something we should
0:35:53 > 0:35:57look at keeping but actually, quite a lot of the detail that matters
0:35:57 > 0:36:00around animal welfare, pushed over by this government, we need to get
0:36:00 > 0:36:08into the detail.Tell us about animal centres, in what way do the
0:36:08 > 0:36:11Conservatives say they did not recognise it?They did not want to
0:36:11 > 0:36:15include it in the EU withdrawal bill, cross-party levels of support
0:36:15 > 0:36:19for including animal sensor in the withdrawal bill, hastily published
0:36:19 > 0:36:24animal sentence bill has been criticised by the rural affairs
0:36:24 > 0:36:32committee, which is led itself by an MP. We need long-term comprehends it
0:36:32 > 0:36:39policy. -- animal sentience.That is why Tony Blair supported animal
0:36:39 > 0:36:43testing when he was Prime Minister, as far as animals healing pain, of
0:36:43 > 0:36:50course they feel pain, but it was a Labour trick to amend a bit of
0:36:50 > 0:36:53legislation to make this stick you need primary legislation and that is
0:36:53 > 0:36:57what the Conservatives are going to do, primary legislation.Was that
0:36:57 > 0:37:04entire sentience debate clumsily handled?I don't want to attack the
0:37:04 > 0:37:08colleague who dealt with it at the time, perhaps he was not feeling
0:37:08 > 0:37:11right, in hindsight, we made it crystal clear that we need primary
0:37:11 > 0:37:16legislation and that is what we are going to get.Does Labour look as if
0:37:16 > 0:37:20it is using animal rights for political capital?Animal welfare is
0:37:20 > 0:37:23an issue that all members of Parliament are concerned about to an
0:37:23 > 0:37:27certain extent.You brought it out only in February.We have created
0:37:27 > 0:37:32together the policy, and published more policy for publication, this
0:37:32 > 0:37:35can range of approaches one that all parties should adopt, I hope the
0:37:35 > 0:37:39Conservatives will cut and paste, we want to see a comprehensive...
0:37:39 > 0:37:45Because the Conservatives now are truly seen as a party representing
0:37:45 > 0:37:49animal welfare.Well... I like the idea of cutting and pasting each
0:37:49 > 0:37:57other's policies! LAUGHTER Thank you very much for coming in.
0:37:58 > 0:38:02Before working for the Class think-thank, our guest of the day
0:38:02 > 0:38:04Faiza Shaheenused to work for Save the Children,
0:38:04 > 0:38:07which is in the headlines at the moment following complaints
0:38:07 > 0:38:08of inappropriate behaviour by their senior executives
0:38:08 > 0:38:09Justin Forsyth and Brendan Cox.
0:38:09 > 0:38:12Save the Children has said it had commissioned a "root and branch
0:38:12 > 0:38:14review of the organisational culture" of the charity.
0:38:14 > 0:38:16An investigation by Radio 4's PM programme makes uncomfortable
0:38:16 > 0:38:17reading for the organisation.
0:38:17 > 0:38:18One woman said...
0:38:18 > 0:38:20"You start to hear rumours about some
0:38:20 > 0:38:23of the directors, but of course until it happens to you,
0:38:23 > 0:38:25which it did, you don't really appreciate how hard
0:38:25 > 0:38:27it is to deal with."
0:38:27 > 0:38:28Another former employee told the programme...
0:38:28 > 0:38:31"The centre of this crisis was not in Haiti or Chad.
0:38:31 > 0:38:32It was in London.
0:38:32 > 0:38:34Young professional women at Save the Children felt unsafe.
0:38:34 > 0:38:36They felt that their careers
0:38:36 > 0:38:37could depend on ensuring they responded
0:38:37 > 0:38:45to unwanted attention and to bullying."
0:38:47 > 0:38:51You worked at Save the Children at the same time as Brendan Cox and
0:38:51 > 0:38:56Justin Forsett, what was your spirits?Definitely a sense that a
0:38:56 > 0:39:01lot of people knew about these rumours and for the most part knew
0:39:01 > 0:39:07them to be true, it was a majority of women working there, and it did
0:39:07 > 0:39:15feel like there was predatory behaviour about, and you had to keep
0:39:15 > 0:39:19safe, certainly.Justin Forsyth has admitted that he made some personal
0:39:19 > 0:39:25mistakes during his time at Save the Children, Brendan Cox has said that
0:39:25 > 0:39:29his behaviour was inappropriate, is that enough, do you think?There is
0:39:29 > 0:39:35a real sense from the longer statements, we know it was
0:39:35 > 0:39:39inappropriate, but the truth is, for a lot of people, so many
0:39:39 > 0:39:44conversations, day after day with people about this scandal, that was
0:39:44 > 0:39:49happening under our very eyes, and it was incredibly uncomfortable and
0:39:49 > 0:39:54I think it made a lot of women feel unsafe, not just those that were
0:39:54 > 0:39:59directly assaulted. But all of us. And I think, at least most of us,
0:39:59 > 0:40:04and I think that culture, is something very difficult to push up
0:40:04 > 0:40:07against both because there was a sense of collusion at the top,
0:40:07 > 0:40:12protection, sometimes, and also because Save the Children do amazing
0:40:12 > 0:40:15work and there is great people working for them, you don't want to
0:40:15 > 0:40:22go against that good work, there was a cultural problem.As you say, it
0:40:22 > 0:40:26is difficult because they are doing this fantastic work, as
0:40:26 > 0:40:30organisations, but does that mean that those two people in question,
0:40:30 > 0:40:34Brendan Cox and Justin Forsyth, have done enough to actually try and
0:40:34 > 0:40:40explain and apologise for the behaviour that they carried out at
0:40:40 > 0:40:44the time?Look, I mean, they are saying that now, it is a particular
0:40:44 > 0:40:48time when people are coming out and making these statements, hard to
0:40:48 > 0:40:53know how genuine that is. After Brendan left, we still all of us
0:40:53 > 0:40:57still got an e-mail, even though we should not have, and it is still
0:40:57 > 0:41:01inappropriate things that happened after he left. Which made me feel
0:41:01 > 0:41:05like there was not a sense that this was really wrong and I understand
0:41:05 > 0:41:09and people understand when they have abused their power. This is not just
0:41:09 > 0:41:12Save the Children, we have been speaking about this across several
0:41:12 > 0:41:18sectors. There is a cultural problem, I don't think, it was not
0:41:18 > 0:41:22just misogyny or issues of abuse of power, there is also race, I
0:41:22 > 0:41:25constantly would be in ruins about global campaigns and nobody from the
0:41:25 > 0:41:30global South in that room and it made me feel uncomfortable, heads of
0:41:30 > 0:41:34offices in many different countries, headed by white men, when there is
0:41:34 > 0:41:38very talented local people that could do the job. I support foreign
0:41:38 > 0:41:43aid and Save the Children but it is a really important time now to look
0:41:43 > 0:41:47long and hard at the number of practices that are happening and the
0:41:47 > 0:41:50culture in those places.Do you think there is a crisis in the
0:41:50 > 0:41:54sector as a whole?I cannot speak across the sector because I worked
0:41:54 > 0:41:59only for Save the Children, to be honest, it was not a great time, I
0:41:59 > 0:42:07left after 17 months. I felt like there was a crisis that had happened
0:42:07 > 0:42:10and by moving on those people, those people leaving, they thought that
0:42:10 > 0:42:15was the end of it. I definitely think that this is in a port in time
0:42:15 > 0:42:20for the development sector to come together and change their ways. That
0:42:20 > 0:42:24may mean a change in the number of people at the top because it is hard
0:42:24 > 0:42:30for individuals to change behaviour. Brendan Cox has checked -- Brendan
0:42:30 > 0:42:33Cox has stepped back from his charitable work, some female Labour
0:42:33 > 0:42:37MPs have said it was the right thing to do and showed he was willing to
0:42:37 > 0:42:41face the things he is meant to have done, do you think that was a strong
0:42:41 > 0:42:45enough criticism of Brendan Cox, or, fair enough, it is as Jess Phillips
0:42:45 > 0:42:49says, they are friends.I have not spoken to Brendan for a long time, I
0:42:49 > 0:42:53don't know how much of this was forced, all this information was
0:42:53 > 0:42:57coming out, this was not right, and I need to step back, because I don't
0:42:57 > 0:43:03want to sully the name of those great in the juicing is. Set up in
0:43:03 > 0:43:10Jo Cox's name. -- those great institutions. We do not want to put
0:43:10 > 0:43:12women from speaking, it was atrocious what happened to Jo Cox
0:43:12 > 0:43:19that is not a free pass from Rafael anyone else to abuse their power and
0:43:19 > 0:43:24assault women, that is never OK, we have to be strong on that.Brendan
0:43:24 > 0:43:28Cox has denied any kind of sexual assault, he said the behaviour was
0:43:28 > 0:43:30inappropriate, let's leave it there.
0:43:34 > 0:43:35Some important economic figures were published yesterday,
0:43:35 > 0:43:38they showed an unexpected rise in unemployment, but also a rise
0:43:38 > 0:43:40in average weekly earnings and signs that productivity growth
0:43:40 > 0:43:41is also increasing.
0:43:41 > 0:43:43The government has talked a lot about Britain's historically
0:43:43 > 0:43:45low unemployment rate, and Chancellor Phillip Hammond said
0:43:45 > 0:43:47this was more evidence that it is succeeding in creating
0:43:47 > 0:43:49"an economy fit for the future".
0:43:49 > 0:43:51That wasn't the view of shadow chancellor John McDonnell,
0:43:51 > 0:43:57who has been speaking about living standards this morning.
0:43:58 > 0:44:02Working people and those on low and middle incomes especially
0:44:02 > 0:44:05have suffered the worst decade for living standards
0:44:05 > 0:44:10for generations,
0:44:10 > 0:44:12perhaps as far back as the Napoleonic wars.
0:44:12 > 0:44:15And the prognosis for the future is, well, is similarly bleak, with at
0:44:15 > 0:44:19best, marginal recovery, but for many, stagnating living standards.
0:44:19 > 0:44:20That was John McDonnell,
0:44:20 > 0:44:22who has also endorsed a report by the think-tank Class,
0:44:22 > 0:44:24led by my guest of the day, Faiza Shaheen.
0:44:24 > 0:44:26It says that despite record employment, many British
0:44:26 > 0:44:28workers are "overworked, underpaid, stressed and beset
0:44:28 > 0:44:29with job insecurity and wage stagnation".
0:44:29 > 0:44:32It's conducted a survey of 2,000 people and says 80% of them
0:44:32 > 0:44:34expect to be poorer over the coming year.
0:44:34 > 0:44:37Well, to discuss this, we're joined by the Conservative MP
0:44:37 > 0:44:45Kwasi Kwarteng,he's an aide to the chancellor Philip Hammond.
0:44:49 > 0:44:53Take us through your survey and the figures, 80% expect to be poorer,
0:44:53 > 0:44:59does not mean that they will be. There is something very important
0:44:59 > 0:45:01about how workers feel and feel for the economy and if it is working for
0:45:01 > 0:45:05them, if after ten years of historically poor wage growth, they
0:45:05 > 0:45:10still don't think they will get an above inflation pay rise, that tells
0:45:10 > 0:45:14us something about their insecurities, how much they might go
0:45:14 > 0:45:18out and spend. Other statistics that stood out for me, three in four
0:45:18 > 0:45:23people do not feel the economy works for them, 20% taking on a second
0:45:23 > 0:45:30job, another 20% have considered it. This is really... Lots of signs that
0:45:30 > 0:45:40people are finding our labour market incredibly precarious and perilous.
0:45:40 > 0:45:44But finding it powerless is not the same as saying they will definitely
0:45:44 > 0:45:48be worse off in 12 months' time - do you think you have misrepresented
0:45:48 > 0:45:53the results by talking about how people are feeling and confusing it
0:45:53 > 0:45:59with what will actually happen?No. It is only right that the 31 million
0:45:59 > 0:46:05workers, or 32 million, we have a temper Jipcho on what they feel is
0:46:05 > 0:46:07working for them, and we should be listening.The job figures speak for
0:46:07 > 0:46:11themselves in terms of the numbers, although there has been this rise in
0:46:11 > 0:46:16unemployment for the first time in many years. Do you accept that when
0:46:16 > 0:46:22it comes to wages, if real incomes are falling - and they have been
0:46:22 > 0:46:29stagnating for ten years - people feel worse off, they ARE worse off?!
0:46:29 > 0:46:33I would accept that but there is a context of. We have record people in
0:46:33 > 0:46:37employment, I think the work you do is commendable and the concerns of
0:46:37 > 0:46:40people need to be addressed. The Prime Minister herself, when she
0:46:40 > 0:46:46became Prime Minister, mentioned the fact about precariousness in
0:46:46 > 0:46:49employment was an issue and there was the Taylor review to look at
0:46:49 > 0:46:53these sort of issues. But let's not lose sight of some of the data.
0:46:53 > 0:46:58We've had a national living rage introduced for the first time in
0:46:58 > 0:47:032016 at £7 20, I believe. -- national living rage death that has
0:47:03 > 0:47:06now increased by about 9%. We have got record numbers of people in
0:47:06 > 0:47:13employment, when any people predicted that there would be a rash
0:47:13 > 0:47:15of unemployment and unemployment would spike. Thankfully that hasn't
0:47:15 > 0:47:20happened. Rebel mentioned zero-hours contracts, you haven't but people
0:47:20 > 0:47:26do, but 2.8% of the workforce has zero-hours contracts are, so that is
0:47:26 > 0:47:29not something which is universally felt across the piece. So, while it
0:47:29 > 0:47:33is there enough for your think-tank to look at some of the difficulties,
0:47:33 > 0:47:37I think there is an overarching story of considerable success in
0:47:37 > 0:47:42this area.Do you accept some of the successful data?No, I think a lot
0:47:42 > 0:47:46of that data clouds what's really happening. The headline employment
0:47:46 > 0:47:49figures completely do not capture the hardship that people face day to
0:47:49 > 0:47:53day and the levels of stress. We spoke to someone that told us about
0:47:53 > 0:47:58half of mental health workers themselves feeling that they've got
0:47:58 > 0:48:00mental health problems and feeling like failures. That's very serious,
0:48:00 > 0:48:04it's a sign that the economy is not working, we are not putting people
0:48:04 > 0:48:08and our people's health first.What would you do?Look, there's a number
0:48:08 > 0:48:13of things we can do. Essentially it is the minimum wages still, they
0:48:13 > 0:48:16called it the national living rage, but we need a real living rage
0:48:16 > 0:48:22commission that actually does speak to people's real costs. And we know
0:48:22 > 0:48:24that people are in huge amount of debt, they're finding it very hard
0:48:24 > 0:48:28to make ends meet. And we need to do something ultimately about power.
0:48:28 > 0:48:32This is not something which has just happened in the last few years since
0:48:32 > 0:48:36Brexit or under the Conservatives, this is a long-term thing, we've
0:48:36 > 0:48:39seen workers having less power, less say in the workplace and less
0:48:39 > 0:48:43ability to barter with their bosses. We need to do something to have
0:48:43 > 0:48:54higher levels of collective bargaining again.
0:48:54 > 0:48:55bargaining again. And when we look at countries that do have better
0:48:55 > 0:48:57workplace environments, higher wages, they are places which have
0:48:57 > 0:48:58stronger trade unions and stronger collective-bargaining, that is the
0:48:58 > 0:49:01truth of it.Let's go back to that stress which is felt by people
0:49:01 > 0:49:04thinking they just cannot afford to make ends meet - how is the
0:49:04 > 0:49:06government going to address the fact that although wages have risen just
0:49:06 > 0:49:09recently, they are still not keeping pace with inflation, inflation is
0:49:09 > 0:49:14not coming down at the moment. It may come down in a year or two -
0:49:14 > 0:49:17what are people supposed to do in between?I think what we are trying
0:49:17 > 0:49:22to do in the medium term is to look at productivity. Everyone knows that
0:49:22 > 0:49:24increasing productivity is going to be the key to getting better growth
0:49:24 > 0:49:28and higher wages. We want to have a higher wages economy. With respect
0:49:28 > 0:49:33to the higher wages that people are getting, we're looking at investing
0:49:33 > 0:49:38in skills and apprenticeships, a whole range of things. If you looked
0:49:38 > 0:49:44at the figures...Yesterday. Actually those figures were
0:49:44 > 0:49:47announced yesterday, they are the most recent. It has been quite
0:49:47 > 0:49:50sluggish, we accept that. The OBR revised downward growth figures on
0:49:50 > 0:49:54the back of that. I happen to think that we are turning the corner on
0:49:54 > 0:49:58that, but we will have to wait and see.Do you agree that productivity
0:49:58 > 0:50:01is key? Jeremy Corbyn has talked an awful lot about policies which
0:50:01 > 0:50:04should focus on increasing productivity for British workers,
0:50:04 > 0:50:09and now these figures suggest that is happening, do you applaud that?
0:50:09 > 0:50:13There's
0:50:14 > 0:50:16There's a couple of things you need to do to make sure that productivity
0:50:16 > 0:50:19goes up. What we haven't had is the investment in recent years in
0:50:19 > 0:50:21equipment and different things, and that's public as well as private
0:50:21 > 0:50:24investment, and that will help. But sometimes productivity is used as a
0:50:24 > 0:50:27bit of a get out of jail card. You don't expect productivity in sectors
0:50:27 > 0:50:31like care or hairdressing... You don't know how that is going to
0:50:31 > 0:50:36look. Productivity is a bit of an old measure in economics. We have to
0:50:36 > 0:50:40really look at the way we talk about wage all. And when you look at the
0:50:40 > 0:50:44evidence of, the number one thing affecting wages is that fall in the
0:50:44 > 0:50:47labour share which is to do with the lack of power, the ability to say to
0:50:47 > 0:50:51your bosses, you're not going to get that pay rise, instead, we're going
0:50:51 > 0:50:55to share it out in productivity you may think is an old-fashioned
0:50:55 > 0:50:58measure but it is absolutely critical to the long-term future and
0:50:58 > 0:51:03bases of growth.But what what about sectors where that isn't relevant?
0:51:03 > 0:51:08The second thing I would say is that you represent a think-tank. You're
0:51:08 > 0:51:11saying that the answer is more collective bargaining power and more
0:51:11 > 0:51:15unionisation, that I would say is a political debate. I don't happen to
0:51:15 > 0:51:19agree with you, I don't think that having huge amounts of trade union
0:51:19 > 0:51:23power that we had in the 1970s is going to be the answer to more
0:51:23 > 0:51:27prosperity.But that is clearly a political view that you have. It is
0:51:27 > 0:51:31actually just based on evidence, though.It is a function of your...
0:51:31 > 0:51:35That is not of unsure of your research, that's a political view
0:51:35 > 0:51:41that you happen to take about the merits of unionisation.Faiza says a
0:51:41 > 0:51:45policy is required which entitles workers to extra compensation for
0:51:45 > 0:51:49working. The majority of workers told the report that they get no
0:51:49 > 0:51:53extra pay - should that be dealt with?I have no idea, I haven't read
0:51:53 > 0:51:57the report, I'm sorry about that. But I don't think that that is
0:51:57 > 0:52:00necessarily something that the government can legislate for.But
0:52:00 > 0:52:02the review did point to some of those things, and the problem is,
0:52:02 > 0:52:06the Taylor review has been done and there is going to be more
0:52:06 > 0:52:10consultations and this problem is just being kicked down the road. And
0:52:10 > 0:52:13in the meantime people are telling is very strongly that they are
0:52:13 > 0:52:17finding it very difficult, and when you look at other indicators, like
0:52:17 > 0:52:20household debt, which is back to near record levels, that is not an
0:52:20 > 0:52:24economy that is successful. It is not working for workers, and who is
0:52:24 > 0:52:30it working for?Even if you look at the data that is favourable, as you
0:52:30 > 0:52:35would say, in broad macro terms, unemployment... All of that, yeah.
0:52:35 > 0:52:40But in the end, if people say they cannot afford to live, are you
0:52:40 > 0:52:45saying, you're wrong?I'm not saying that.When will the Treasury be
0:52:45 > 0:52:49prepared to embrace the fact that so many people do feel that they are
0:52:49 > 0:52:53not going to be better off in future years?I'm not going to sit here and
0:52:53 > 0:52:56say it's a bed of roses and everything is fine. Clearly people
0:52:56 > 0:53:00are under a lot of stress, but you've got to look at the direction
0:53:00 > 0:53:04of travel. There have been huge successes, as you yourself is
0:53:04 > 0:53:06accepted and I think we're going to improve. I think the productivity
0:53:06 > 0:53:10figures are going to improve, clearly the employment figures are
0:53:10 > 0:53:14as good as... Let me put it the other way. If for whatever reason we
0:53:14 > 0:53:17had a serious problem with unemployment, people like yourselves
0:53:17 > 0:53:20rightly would be making hay about this. And the fact is that we
0:53:20 > 0:53:24actually have very good implement figures.Are you surprised by that?
0:53:24 > 0:53:30That unemployment has been so low? Not really, because what we've seen
0:53:30 > 0:53:34over the years is a growth in jobs, but the quality of those jobs hasn't
0:53:34 > 0:53:37been questioned. That's really the critical thing, because having a bad
0:53:37 > 0:53:42job is bad for your mental health, just as much as not having a job at
0:53:42 > 0:53:46all. We can do better than this, is my point. And we need to do better,
0:53:46 > 0:53:50because people are on the brink here, they are telling us, like I
0:53:50 > 0:53:53say, that this is very, very hard for them to manage. The big thing
0:53:53 > 0:53:59which needs to happen is that the public spending cuts need to end,
0:53:59 > 0:54:02because public sector workers above everybody else in this report were
0:54:02 > 0:54:05shouting loudest about work intensification, about how difficult
0:54:05 > 0:54:09their workplaces have become.We can have a debate about the quality of
0:54:09 > 0:54:12jobs and I think that is a good debate to be having. In another
0:54:12 > 0:54:15context we would be talking about unemployment and we would be talking
0:54:15 > 0:54:19about millions of people, as one of the MPC members of the Bank of
0:54:19 > 0:54:22England predicted, that there would be 5 million unemployed.It does not
0:54:22 > 0:54:27have to be either raw, does it?That is a sign of the success we have
0:54:27 > 0:54:30been having.
0:54:30 > 0:54:33There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
0:54:33 > 0:54:35The question was, what are Conservative MPs using to message
0:54:35 > 0:54:37each other, instead of WhatsApp?
0:54:37 > 0:54:38Is it a) Invisible ink?
0:54:38 > 0:54:39b) A pager?
0:54:39 > 0:54:41c) A "military-grade encyrption" app called Confide?
0:54:41 > 0:54:44Or d) passing messages to each other in St James's Park?
0:54:44 > 0:54:49So, what's the correct answer?
0:54:49 > 0:54:55Well, pages seemed to me to be pretty old school!They really are,
0:54:55 > 0:55:00even by my standards!I don't know much about Confides, but I'm kind of
0:55:00 > 0:55:04thinking it might be that one!And you would be right! Apparently while
0:55:04 > 0:55:09WhatsApp used to be the go to tool for Parliamentary plotting, with MPs
0:55:09 > 0:55:12of all parties using it, they're now looking for other ways to
0:55:12 > 0:55:16communicate which won't end up in the papers.
0:55:16 > 0:55:23We are joined now by a technology journalist and by a Conservative MP
0:55:23 > 0:55:26and former technology journalist. Are you surprised that WhatsApp is
0:55:26 > 0:55:30falling out of favour?Not at all, because one of the problems is not
0:55:30 > 0:55:34that the encryption is not good but it is because it can be screen grab,
0:55:34 > 0:55:37and that is what we see making the papers, screen grabs of
0:55:37 > 0:55:42conversations.So, is this the answer for politicians?Any app has
0:55:42 > 0:55:50got issues. You have to measure your threat level, if you like! Confide
0:55:50 > 0:55:56is better than WhatsApp because it can't be screen grab. There were
0:55:56 > 0:55:59some problems with Confide last year because this was the app which the
0:55:59 > 0:56:05Trump staff were losing last year and it had all kinds of problems,
0:56:05 > 0:56:08which to be fair they say they've fixed.Warning alerts everywhere, no
0:56:08 > 0:56:15doubt! So you don't think it is guided by an to leaks?People have
0:56:15 > 0:56:19to remember what they have actually sent, because you can't screenshot
0:56:19 > 0:56:23it, the down shot of that is that it does not hold onto the history of
0:56:23 > 0:56:27the conversation. So, if you want to hold your fellow Tory MP to
0:56:27 > 0:56:31something they've said, it will not be there to hold them to it.Are you
0:56:31 > 0:56:36part of these WhatsApp groups?I hate to break it to you but actually
0:56:36 > 0:56:42WhatsApp is still very much the main platform.Oh, is it?!And as Kate
0:56:42 > 0:56:46said, these apps are only as secure as the users, whoever it is. And we
0:56:46 > 0:56:51all know from the Sunday papers that what happens on WhatsApp is not
0:56:51 > 0:56:55necessarily as encrypted as we might wish.And actually it's not the
0:56:55 > 0:56:59technology, it's the personalities. If people want to leak what has been
0:56:59 > 0:57:03said, then that is what they will do?And that is true if it is a
0:57:03 > 0:57:07conversation in the corridor on if it is on WhatsApp.I always say to
0:57:07 > 0:57:12people, the weak point is the human beings, not the technology.So there
0:57:12 > 0:57:15is not much reassurance, then, for your colleagues?I think everybody
0:57:15 > 0:57:19is circumspect and yet it is in the corridor on WhatsApp! And actually
0:57:19 > 0:57:23we should bear in mind that some of this stuff ends up in the papers big
0:57:23 > 0:57:27because people want it to end up in the papers.But WhatsApp is very
0:57:27 > 0:57:32appealing, isn't it? You can see the attraction. Why wouldn't Tory MPs
0:57:32 > 0:57:35join a group forgetting lines agreed and getting the narrative, it has
0:57:35 > 0:57:41been helpful?Dug through the vast majority of WhatsApp groups across
0:57:41 > 0:57:44political parties are about making sure that everyone is on the same
0:57:44 > 0:57:47page and going in the same direction. Every department will
0:57:47 > 0:57:51have its own little support group that is very straightforward. This
0:57:51 > 0:57:57is what we are talking about at such a juncture... I hate to say this is
0:57:57 > 0:58:02not as exciting or as secretive in most cases as it...Yes, it is! How
0:58:02 > 0:58:07many groups are you a member of?I haven't counted recently, but lots,
0:58:07 > 0:58:11is the short answer!Have you looked from any of them?!Almost all of
0:58:11 > 0:58:18those groups are very prosaic, I'm afraid!Cake, do you think we could
0:58:18 > 0:58:22go back to the good old pager, I remember those beeping all the time
0:58:22 > 0:58:26when we were meeting politicians? You could do but that is not
0:58:26 > 0:58:29actually an effective means of Jimmy Nikki King. What is nice about
0:58:29 > 0:58:32something like WhatsApp or Confide is, it's happening all the time. I'm
0:58:32 > 0:58:36a member working with pages and you had to wait for people to ring you
0:58:36 > 0:58:40back - that's old school!It is! Are you a member of a WhatsApp group?
0:58:40 > 0:58:47Many!Everybody says many but nobody is telling me which ones!
0:58:47 > 0:58:48That's all for today.
0:58:48 > 0:58:54Thanks to our guests.
0:58:54 > 0:58:57Thanks to Faiza for being our best of the day.
0:58:57 > 0:58:59The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.
0:58:59 > 0:59:05I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big