26/02/2018

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0:00:38 > 0:00:42Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

0:00:42 > 0:00:45Jeremy Corbyn kicks off a big week for Brexit with his speech

0:00:45 > 0:00:48on life after we leave - he's backing a permanent

0:00:48 > 0:00:51customs union with the EU and he's inviting Conservative rebels to join

0:00:51 > 0:00:56him in defeating the government.

0:00:56 > 0:00:59With temperatures falling across the UK, the government claims

0:00:59 > 0:01:02it will protect 11 million customers from "rip off" energy bills.

0:01:02 > 0:01:06We'll look at the details.

0:01:06 > 0:01:11Sheep - plain and simple, these days - have become industrialised.

0:01:11 > 0:01:15They've become mere commodities, no longer treated as sentient beings -

0:01:15 > 0:01:19animals that can feel pain.

0:01:19 > 0:01:22As MPs prepare to debate ending live animal exports,

0:01:22 > 0:01:27the broadcaster Selina Scott says it's time to act.

0:01:27 > 0:01:31And there's a big campaign to cut the national voting age to 16 -

0:01:31 > 0:01:33we'll be looking at the tongue in cheek call for it

0:01:33 > 0:01:36to go as low as 12.

0:01:41 > 0:01:44All that in the next hour and with us for the whole

0:01:44 > 0:01:49of the programme today are two MPs sheltering from the snow

0:01:49 > 0:01:52and the wind in our studio here at Westminster where we've got

0:01:52 > 0:01:53the heating turned up.

0:01:53 > 0:01:59It's Labour's Lisa Nandy and for the Conservatives, Chris Skidmore.

0:01:59 > 0:02:01Welcome to both of you.

0:02:01 > 0:02:03So it's going to be a huge week for Brexit, beginning

0:02:03 > 0:02:06with Jeremy Corbyn's speech this morning and ending with a speech

0:02:06 > 0:02:07by the Prime Minister.

0:02:07 > 0:02:10Plenty more of that in the show today, but first...

0:02:10 > 0:02:14The government should get ten out of ten for timing at least.

0:02:14 > 0:02:17Because just as the UK gets a blast of Siberian weather a new bill

0:02:17 > 0:02:20to limit the cost of some energy bills is being introduced

0:02:20 > 0:02:23into Parliament.

0:02:23 > 0:02:27It's been calculated that domestic customers using the big six energy

0:02:27 > 0:02:29companies pay £1.4 billion more on average than they would

0:02:29 > 0:02:35in a truly competitive market.

0:02:35 > 0:02:38The difference between cheapest available tariff and the average

0:02:38 > 0:02:42Standard Variable Tariff is estimated to be around £300.

0:02:42 > 0:02:49So the new law would mean Ofgem, the energy regulatior,

0:02:49 > 0:02:52would set a cap on standard default tariffs and this would come

0:02:52 > 0:02:55into effect by next winter and would last until 2020.

0:02:55 > 0:02:58It could then be extended every year until 2023.

0:02:58 > 0:03:00As you can imagine not everyone is happy.

0:03:00 > 0:03:06Energy UK, which represents the energy providers,

0:03:06 > 0:03:09warned "it's vital the cap doesn't halt the growth of competition".

0:03:09 > 0:03:11Let's have a listen to the energy minister Claire Perry talking

0:03:11 > 0:03:16about the plan earlier today.

0:03:16 > 0:03:20What you're doing is saying, as we've seen in other industries about

0:03:20 > 0:03:23banking, all those great deals that are out there for other customers,

0:03:23 > 0:03:29come and switch to us, save on average £300 a year, those sorts of

0:03:29 > 0:03:32deals should be available to the most loyal customers. Those who

0:03:32 > 0:03:36can't switch or won't switch. Switching is a great thing. We now

0:03:36 > 0:03:40have about 20% of households out there looking for the best deals.

0:03:40 > 0:03:44I've switched twice, it does save money. We know many people still

0:03:44 > 0:03:47don't know about switching and lots of steps are being taken to make

0:03:47 > 0:03:50sure that improves, but equally some people never want to switch and why

0:03:50 > 0:03:55should those customers be paying these unfair tariffs? Those are the

0:03:55 > 0:04:02people who will benefit most from this protection.

0:04:02 > 0:04:07Centrica, which owns British Gas, announced they will lose 4000 jobs

0:04:07 > 0:04:10by 2020, partly down to your proposed price cap. These plans

0:04:10 > 0:04:15could damage the industry, couldn't they?I think having Ofgem set the

0:04:15 > 0:04:20level of the cap is very important here. This is a state control.

0:04:20 > 0:04:23Having a regulator responsibly taking decisions that will provide

0:04:23 > 0:04:26that balance.You've asked them to do that to distance herself from

0:04:26 > 0:04:30making decisions. Gallup the business and energy select committee

0:04:30 > 0:04:36has looked at it and said, iffor too long the big six have argued

0:04:36 > 0:04:41there will be consequences. We need to be on the side of the consumer.

0:04:41 > 0:04:45The Conservative Party as the party of the little man and we need to

0:04:45 > 0:04:48make sure we have the best value for money.You want to look after the

0:04:48 > 0:04:53consumer, but the

0:04:53 > 0:04:56consumer, but the company uSwitch has said it is fraught with

0:04:56 > 0:04:59unintended consequences and that the cap could undermine the very

0:04:59 > 0:05:02competition you want to see and push up prices in the longer term and

0:05:02 > 0:05:07harm the consumer. The bill has gone through pre-legislative scrutiny. We

0:05:07 > 0:05:12bought it through as a draft Bill to see how we can make improvements.We

0:05:12 > 0:05:17will put it out to consultation. We will see it pass through Parliament

0:05:17 > 0:05:20as a bill and it shows the government does have a domestic

0:05:20 > 0:05:24policy programme in place and we need to make sure we take the bill

0:05:24 > 0:05:29through that there are concerns that we welcome. This is about value for

0:05:29 > 0:05:34money. B. On the standard variable tariff, many people are locked in

0:05:34 > 0:05:37and it could save them several hundred pounds per year.Do you

0:05:37 > 0:05:42support it? This was the suggestion that Ed Miliband, the former Labour

0:05:42 > 0:05:45leader, proposed. It will help people on that standard variable

0:05:45 > 0:05:50tariff.It was quite nice seeing how far the Tory party has gone since

0:05:50 > 0:05:57they told us we were dangerous communists. To be honest, I think

0:05:57 > 0:06:01it's a bit sad that you can't say, we have a situation in this country

0:06:01 > 0:06:05where people are being absolutely ripped off and we think that the

0:06:05 > 0:06:08state ought to do something about it and be proud of that. This is an

0:06:08 > 0:06:11important temporary fixed to the energy market and I very much

0:06:11 > 0:06:14supported. It doesn't deal with the bigger problems in the energy

0:06:14 > 0:06:20market. One of the biggest problems as you almost highlighted is that

0:06:20 > 0:06:24you have a handful of companies who want just selling energy to

0:06:24 > 0:06:26consumers, they're generating and selling energy to themselves and

0:06:26 > 0:06:30that's where the big profit margins come. Centrica and British Gas are a

0:06:30 > 0:06:35good example. British Gas five a lot of gas from its parent company,

0:06:35 > 0:06:38Centrica, which is where the big profit margins come. That is a sort

0:06:38 > 0:06:41of thing the government needs to take action on.Because that

0:06:41 > 0:06:46balance. We don't want to criticise companies. There are thousands of

0:06:46 > 0:06:50people who work in his company is, we are not anti-big business.Are

0:06:50 > 0:06:57consumers being ripped off or not with yellow --?Some consumers don't

0:06:57 > 0:07:00have the time to switch so we need a portfolio of options for consumers.

0:07:00 > 0:07:06Penalised for loyalty. We shouldn't allow a market to persist in which

0:07:06 > 0:07:10customers are penalised for being loyal.Do you accept one of the

0:07:10 > 0:07:13problems with the freeze is that the price of wholesale energy, when it

0:07:13 > 0:07:18came down, people would be paint over and above the odds at the time

0:07:18 > 0:07:21if Ed Miliband had pushed it through.That was a

0:07:21 > 0:07:24mischaracterisation of the Labour policy and it was always intended to

0:07:24 > 0:07:27be a cap that bloated with the price of wholesale rather than being

0:07:27 > 0:07:33static. I agree that that would have been a valid criticism if that were

0:07:33 > 0:07:37policy. This is a temporary measure which has had to come about because

0:07:37 > 0:07:40of a very long period of time the energy companies have been warned,

0:07:40 > 0:07:46not just by political parties, but by the independent watchdog, CMA,

0:07:46 > 0:07:49that they are ripping off customers and they haven't done anything about

0:07:49 > 0:07:51it.You're trying to limit competition which isn't very

0:07:51 > 0:07:55conservative.It's the balance between ensuring we have the best

0:07:55 > 0:07:58value and what we are against in the Conservative Party is corporatism.

0:07:58 > 0:08:04We leave in ensuring competition but corporatism is not competition.

0:08:04 > 0:08:09Unlike the Labour position where it was a freeze, people would be able

0:08:09 > 0:08:12to bid under this and it's being able to create that dynamic where

0:08:12 > 0:08:19people have the best value.In the meantime, we'll turn the heating up

0:08:19 > 0:08:20for this week!

0:08:20 > 0:08:22Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has been making his big speech

0:08:22 > 0:08:25on Brexit this morning, and he was keen to try to set out

0:08:25 > 0:08:27some clear red water between his position and that

0:08:27 > 0:08:28of the government.

0:08:28 > 0:08:31While the Prime Minister has insisted the UK will leave

0:08:31 > 0:08:33the customs union, allowing it to negotiate its own post-Brexit

0:08:33 > 0:08:36trade deals, Mr Corbyn has confirmed that Labour will in fact back

0:08:36 > 0:08:38a customs union with the EU.

0:08:38 > 0:08:41The Labour leader also said his party would,

0:08:41 > 0:08:43if it had the opportunity, "negotiate a new and

0:08:43 > 0:08:48strong relationship with the single market" too.

0:08:48 > 0:08:51Some Brexit-backing Labour MPs have warned that the party risks

0:08:51 > 0:08:54betraying those who voted to take back control of immigration

0:08:54 > 0:08:56and laws, although the speech may have pleased the many more Labour

0:08:56 > 0:08:59MPs who support a closer relationship with the EU.

0:08:59 > 0:09:04Let's have a listen to Mr Corbyn speaking earlier.

0:09:04 > 0:09:07We've long argued that a customs union is a viable

0:09:07 > 0:09:10option for the final deal, so Labour would seek to negotiate

0:09:10 > 0:09:15a new, comprehensive UK/EU customs union to ensure there are no tariffs

0:09:15 > 0:09:20with Europe and to help avoid any need whatsoever for a hard border

0:09:20 > 0:09:24in Northern Ireland.

0:09:24 > 0:09:27Labour would not countenance a deal that left Britain a passive

0:09:27 > 0:09:34recipient of rules decided elsewhere by others that would mean ending up

0:09:34 > 0:09:39as a mere rule taker.

0:09:39 > 0:09:42The European Union is not the root of all our problems and leaving it

0:09:42 > 0:09:43will not solve all our problems.

0:09:43 > 0:09:47Likewise, the EU is not the source of all enlightenment and leaving it

0:09:47 > 0:09:49does not inevitably spell doom.

0:09:49 > 0:09:52There'll be some who'll tell you Brexit is a disaster for this

0:09:52 > 0:09:55country and some will tell you that Brexit will create a land

0:09:55 > 0:09:56of milk and honey.

0:09:56 > 0:09:59The truth is more down to earth and it's in our hands.

0:09:59 > 0:10:01Brexit is what we make of it, together.

0:10:01 > 0:10:06The priorities and choices we make in negotiations.

0:10:06 > 0:10:08That was Jeremy Corbyn speaking a little earlier,

0:10:08 > 0:10:11and joining us now from Coventry is the Shadow Business Secretary

0:10:11 > 0:10:14Rebecca Long-Bailey.

0:10:14 > 0:10:21Welcome to Daily Politics. Labour says Britain will need a bespoke

0:10:21 > 0:10:25relationship of its own that you seek to negotiate protections,

0:10:25 > 0:10:28clarifications or exemptions were necessary. In order to deliver on

0:10:28 > 0:10:34your ambitious economic programme. So to sum up, you want all the good

0:10:34 > 0:10:37bit of the single market and none of the allegedly bad bits, which I

0:10:37 > 0:10:43think the EU calls cherry picking and they have rejected.No, there

0:10:43 > 0:10:48are certain provisions we know undermine our workers' rights. The

0:10:48 > 0:10:52posted workers directives, it is not in the interest of workers here in

0:10:52 > 0:10:56Britain and we would want to seek that exception. A number of EU

0:10:56 > 0:10:59countries are currently pressing for it to be removed. If it isn't, we

0:10:59 > 0:11:03will be pushing ahead with it. Ultimately the message that Jeremy

0:11:03 > 0:11:08put forward is that we have domestic economic problems, deep structural

0:11:08 > 0:11:12problems within our economy that need to be addressed. We've had

0:11:12 > 0:11:15significant underinvestment in particular regions over the last

0:11:15 > 0:11:17seven years and people are increasingly making their voice

0:11:17 > 0:11:22heard that they're not happy with this economic model. We can put in

0:11:22 > 0:11:25place domestic interventions and we said we will do that. We are

0:11:25 > 0:11:28undertaking the most radical and robust industrial programme that's

0:11:28 > 0:11:34been seen in a generation in terms of investing in our research and

0:11:34 > 0:11:37development, skills, infrastructure. That will only work if we have a

0:11:37 > 0:11:43solid relationship with the EU that supports and complements our

0:11:43 > 0:11:46industrial strategy on our economic programme going forward.What

0:11:46 > 0:11:50evidence do you have that the EU would agree to all of that? This

0:11:50 > 0:11:55really is having your cake and eating it. We want to maintain the

0:11:55 > 0:11:58benefits we have within the customs union. We want to have our cake and

0:11:58 > 0:12:02eat it, as do most parties in Westminster. Where is the evidence

0:12:02 > 0:12:06the EU would agree to that whole long list of the domestic policies

0:12:06 > 0:12:09you want to enact while still retaining all the benefits of the

0:12:09 > 0:12:14customs union and single market? We've been clear from the start that

0:12:14 > 0:12:18people didn't vote to leave the European Union in order to have

0:12:18 > 0:12:23worse terms and conditions, to have lower rates of pay. We were always

0:12:23 > 0:12:26good buy for Brexit that puts our economy, jobs and businesses best

0:12:26 > 0:12:29and we set out to do that. We know we're in a strong negotiating

0:12:29 > 0:12:33position with the EU. We are one of their strongest bodies, with a sixth

0:12:33 > 0:12:38richest economy in the world. Why would they not want to negotiate a

0:12:38 > 0:12:40bespoke deal with us in the same way they did with countries around

0:12:40 > 0:12:46Europe?Do you think the government has an equally strong hand went

0:12:46 > 0:12:50negotiating its position on the basis that you just outlined?The

0:12:50 > 0:12:53government doesn't have a strong position at all, they can't decide

0:12:53 > 0:12:56what they're doing from one week to the next. In terms of the transition

0:12:56 > 0:13:00period, they can't agree whether we'll have existing terms or if

0:13:00 > 0:13:03we're going to negotiate a transition period. We'd been quite

0:13:03 > 0:13:07clear today. In relation to the transition period we'll observe the

0:13:07 > 0:13:10current terms and conditions of the customs union and the single market

0:13:10 > 0:13:15so we are not pushing businesses and workers off a cliff edge and not

0:13:15 > 0:13:18having to undertake a new set of rules and regulations to then do it

0:13:18 > 0:13:21again once the final deal is reached. We want to provide

0:13:21 > 0:13:24certainty and we know that is not what this government is doing at the

0:13:24 > 0:13:32moment.You still haven't been able to tell us...Long-term investment

0:13:32 > 0:13:35decisions.You haven't been able to tell us why your position would be

0:13:35 > 0:13:38any stronger than that of the government. There was a plant that

0:13:38 > 0:13:42came out of the meeting that then Donald Tusk from the European Union

0:13:42 > 0:13:47Council rejected as cherry picking. You're saying that by remaining part

0:13:47 > 0:13:53of a cousin union, our trade policy will be dictated by the EU 27.

0:13:53 > 0:13:57Sorry, I didn't hear that.Do you accept our trade policy will be

0:13:57 > 0:14:03dictated by the EU 27 if the UK is part of a customs union?Know, we've

0:14:03 > 0:14:07been very clear on that today. What we're seeking to achieve is to

0:14:07 > 0:14:11become part of a customs union with the EU. That will be dependent on

0:14:11 > 0:14:16there being a clear forum in which Britain has a very strong position

0:14:16 > 0:14:20in agreeing to, or amending, any trade deals itself.What is your

0:14:20 > 0:14:26evidence the EU would sign up? There is no evidence the EU would sign up

0:14:26 > 0:14:28to those exemptions, clarifications and protections you talk about.

0:14:28 > 0:14:33Where in a very strong position for the reasons as we set out earlier.

0:14:33 > 0:14:37We are one of the biggest economies in the world. The EU wants a

0:14:37 > 0:14:40positive relationship with us and we want one with them. We know we're

0:14:40 > 0:14:45only going to work as an economy and the European economy as a whole if

0:14:45 > 0:14:49we forge that strong relationship together.But you've just said that

0:14:49 > 0:14:53the British government hasn't got a clear direction, although its stated

0:14:53 > 0:14:56what it wants to do in terms of leaving the customs union.They

0:14:56 > 0:15:02can't decide...But they said they want to leave the customs union and

0:15:02 > 0:15:06the single market, which is pretty clear. And even some of the things

0:15:06 > 0:15:09they would like to see done in a bespoke deal have been rejected by

0:15:09 > 0:15:14the EU. I say again, you say you are in a strong position but there's no

0:15:14 > 0:15:17evidence for that. Why do you think you can have the same relationship

0:15:17 > 0:15:24as Britain currently has now but somehow give the UK a voice that is

0:15:24 > 0:15:29more influential than each of the EU 27? That we'd be able to influence

0:15:29 > 0:15:34EU trade policy more than them? We're taking a reasonable and

0:15:34 > 0:15:37pragmatic view of our future relationship with the EU. The

0:15:37 > 0:15:41government has not been reasonable and pragmatic. They say they want to

0:15:41 > 0:15:45have frictionless trade. They say they don't want a hard border in

0:15:45 > 0:15:48Northern Ireland and yet they reduce... Refused to accept we must

0:15:48 > 0:15:51have some form of customs union with the European Union. We realise we

0:15:51 > 0:15:55can't have that frictionless trade without some form of customs union

0:15:55 > 0:15:59and that's what we're taking to the negotiating table. We also want to

0:15:59 > 0:16:02be perfectly clear that were not going to beat a passive recipient in

0:16:02 > 0:16:05that arrangement. We want there to be a forum, a clear forum where

0:16:05 > 0:16:11Britain has the opportunity to argue and fight for its future trade deals

0:16:11 > 0:16:14on appropriate terms that are in the benefit of our own economic

0:16:14 > 0:16:19interests.Isn't this just the first step of you ratting? Ratting on all

0:16:19 > 0:16:23those Labour leaders. They voted to take back control of the money,

0:16:23 > 0:16:26borders and laws. You'd sell them down the river to get Jeremy Corbyn

0:16:26 > 0:16:30into Downing Street.No. This is about taking back control and

0:16:30 > 0:16:34ensuring we have full economic control. To do that is...You can't

0:16:34 > 0:16:39live you're part of a customs union. No, we have to make sure we have a

0:16:39 > 0:16:42positive relationship with the EU in order to do that. We can't sell out

0:16:42 > 0:16:45our industrial base. We can't make people worse off than they are now

0:16:45 > 0:16:49on leaving the European Union and we have defined a relationship that

0:16:49 > 0:16:55satisfies our guys I do leave the EU but also make sure we can maintain

0:16:55 > 0:16:58those positive trading relationships and other relationships within the

0:16:58 > 0:17:03European Union. That's what we've set out today.Will you back and a

0:17:03 > 0:17:06Subaru's amendment to enable the UK to stay in the customs union and

0:17:06 > 0:17:12potentially defeat the government?

0:17:12 > 0:17:15We will take that decision throughout the course of the week.

0:17:15 > 0:17:20It will be interesting to see what interventions they make today. They

0:17:20 > 0:17:23are at war over the customs union and I would not be surprised to see

0:17:23 > 0:17:28some movement on that.On immigration Jeremy Corbyn said

0:17:28 > 0:17:32Labour would design a policy around the need of the economy based on

0:17:32 > 0:17:36their rules and reasonable management of migration and make no

0:17:36 > 0:17:41apologies for putting those aims before voters on targets. Are you

0:17:41 > 0:17:45committed to ending freedom of movement?It will end, that is a

0:17:45 > 0:17:50fact, when we leave the European Union. We have to have a fair and

0:17:50 > 0:17:55reasonable system in place. It has to address our economic needs and

0:17:55 > 0:18:00fill a skills gap and shortages. CBI and the British Chambers of commerce

0:18:00 > 0:18:04are calling for a clear guidelines to make sure we can make sure that

0:18:04 > 0:18:08industry gets the skills we need. We have to address an underlying issue

0:18:08 > 0:18:12we have in Britain, which is chronic underinvestment in our own

0:18:12 > 0:18:18home-grown skills and talent. 1.15 billion was pulled from the budget

0:18:18 > 0:18:22in recent years. We have to make sure the scaling of people living in

0:18:22 > 0:18:28Britain is still

0:18:32 > 0:18:34Britain is still addressing the issue so we still have a pool of

0:18:34 > 0:18:35talent in our industry.

0:18:35 > 0:18:36talent in our industry.

0:18:36 > 0:18:39We're joined now by the UKIP MEP and of course prominent Brexit

0:18:39 > 0:18:41campaigner Nigel Farage.

0:18:41 > 0:18:49Is Jeremy Corbyn's speech a game changer?Governments do not

0:18:49 > 0:18:53negotiate trade deals. The European Commission negotiates trade deal. If

0:18:53 > 0:18:56you are part of a customs union, you will not be involved in that. They

0:18:56 > 0:19:01are giving up on that. They are saying, thank you very much, that is

0:19:01 > 0:19:06great, we are happy with this. You now need to go further on the single

0:19:06 > 0:19:12market. The next speech down the road will be that we are linked to a

0:19:12 > 0:19:16single market but not the single market. The biggest clue of the lot

0:19:16 > 0:19:21was yesterday on the BBC when Keir Starmer said we would have to have a

0:19:21 > 0:19:25new treaty. We get rid of the current treaty, we have another

0:19:25 > 0:19:28treaty, and Labour voters were asked are we really leaving?Would you

0:19:28 > 0:19:33like to see Labour commits to remaining a member of the single

0:19:33 > 0:19:38market?Broadly speaking we are in the right place in the country.What

0:19:38 > 0:19:43is the answer to that question?That is the answer. The position Jeromy

0:19:43 > 0:19:48set out an hour ago was building on the commitment that Keir Starmer

0:19:48 > 0:19:53made, access to the single market rather than membership of the single

0:19:53 > 0:20:00market.We can all have access.It gives you flexibility to be able to

0:20:00 > 0:20:04negotiate specific terms. For me the importance of all of this that is

0:20:04 > 0:20:10being lost in the bluster and hot air is that Labour does now have a

0:20:10 > 0:20:14very clear position, which is that we see our future as being a high

0:20:14 > 0:20:18wage, high standard economy that links as very closely to those

0:20:18 > 0:20:24standards that operate across the European Union.Britain would be a

0:20:24 > 0:20:27rule taker and that is where you would be selling levers down the

0:20:27 > 0:20:33line?No, that is part of the negotiation. The difficulty for

0:20:33 > 0:20:36Britain is there is not agreement in the Tory party, even within the

0:20:36 > 0:20:42government. This is a choice, do we want to peg ourselves closely to

0:20:42 > 0:20:46countries like the US and China and trade on those terms which will push

0:20:46 > 0:20:51down wages in constituencies like mine.It will not push wages down,

0:20:51 > 0:20:55it will open the door to immigration.I welcome to

0:20:55 > 0:20:59immigration in a moment. What do you say to that? Are you confident you

0:20:59 > 0:21:02will still be able to get Parliament to endorse leaving the single market

0:21:02 > 0:21:08and the customs union?First of all, this is about taking back control.

0:21:08 > 0:21:14People voted in June 2016 to have control over their money, their laws

0:21:14 > 0:21:18and their borders. Two thirds of Labour constituents voted to leave.

0:21:18 > 0:21:22They will be outraged if they feel our future training policy is set by

0:21:22 > 0:21:27the EU. The whole point of a customs union means it will exclude the

0:21:27 > 0:21:32ability for Britain to sign independently to other trade

0:21:32 > 0:21:36nations. When people realise the customs union will lead to this,

0:21:36 > 0:21:41there will be serious consequences to the Labour Party.Your party got

0:21:41 > 0:21:46just under 600,000 votes in the last election, against 17.4 million

0:21:46 > 0:21:50people who voted to leave, as well as others who voted to remain. Why

0:21:50 > 0:21:55do you still get to defy what a proper Brexit looks like?The party

0:21:55 > 0:22:00got fewer votes because the public believed parties like Labour, the

0:22:00 > 0:22:05Brexit they voted for, was going to happen. Now we are seeing a

0:22:05 > 0:22:08different picture. There were four million-plus Labour voters who voted

0:22:08 > 0:22:14for Jeremy Corbyn who genuinely want immigration reduced significantly

0:22:14 > 0:22:20and want us to leave the single market, the customs union and to be

0:22:20 > 0:22:24an independent country. So this is a sell-out by any measure.You always

0:22:24 > 0:22:29said Jeremy Corbyn was a Brexiteer. Why wouldn't people trust him to

0:22:29 > 0:22:33deliver the sort of Brexit that would protect jobs and the economy

0:22:33 > 0:22:38as he has dated?If you continue with free movement... He wants to be

0:22:38 > 0:22:43a citizen of the world. He said we would not scapegoat anybody. There

0:22:43 > 0:22:49were so many references there. He also said Labour's priority will be

0:22:49 > 0:22:56business commitments, not arbitrary migration numbers. We will continue

0:22:56 > 0:23:01with the low paid jobs and that is what Labour has produced.This is

0:23:01 > 0:23:05absolute nonsense. If it was as true as you say that you somehow

0:23:05 > 0:23:09magically know exactly why every single leave voter in this country

0:23:09 > 0:23:13voted to leave and the specific legal mechanisms that they want to

0:23:13 > 0:23:16see in place afterwards, why did your vote collapse in constituencies

0:23:16 > 0:23:22like mine in 2017? We stood on a very clear manifesto...Leave the

0:23:22 > 0:23:28single market.We did not, we stood on a very clear commitment that said

0:23:28 > 0:23:32that we wanted to retain the benefits of the single market. We

0:23:32 > 0:23:37wanted access to the single market. We wanted to avoid a hard border

0:23:37 > 0:23:43with Northern Ireland.We welcome onto the hard border. Let's talk

0:23:43 > 0:23:46about immigration. What do you understand by Rebecca Long Bailey

0:23:46 > 0:23:51and what was said in the Labour manifesto that there will be an end

0:23:51 > 0:23:55to freedom of movement which is then followed by a fairer system of

0:23:55 > 0:23:59managed by Gration according to Jeremy Corbyn?I am not part of the

0:23:59 > 0:24:05internal discussion.What does it mean to you?What I imagine it is

0:24:05 > 0:24:08leading to, whether it is Tories negotiating it or Labour, is

0:24:08 > 0:24:12probably a system that looks like work permits and looking at the

0:24:12 > 0:24:19requirements to bring in non-skilled labour and skilled labour. Would the

0:24:19 > 0:24:23numbers go down? That is a red herring because if you start saying

0:24:23 > 0:24:26we will set an arbitrary target for numbers, then you are not looking at

0:24:26 > 0:24:31the interests of the economy.In terms of knowing what people wanted

0:24:31 > 0:24:35about leaving the European Union, are you saying there will be tens of

0:24:35 > 0:24:40thousands of disappointed Labour voters who will be disappointed if

0:24:40 > 0:24:45we're not leaving the customs union? Millions. They will be very

0:24:45 > 0:24:48disappointed. If Theresa May was able right now to grab the

0:24:48 > 0:24:53immigration agenda, I think she could do massive damage to Labour in

0:24:53 > 0:24:57the north. I am not sure she will do it, but everybody was clear we were

0:24:57 > 0:25:01voting to leave the institutions of the European Union and run our own

0:25:01 > 0:25:07lives. Nobody voted lower wages. They will get higher wages if we

0:25:07 > 0:25:11control immigration. If we go global we could be a richer country. What

0:25:11 > 0:25:14you have done today is you have stopped us going global by staying

0:25:14 > 0:25:20part of a customs union.You say it will be a negotiation but it does

0:25:20 > 0:25:24mean on paper that Britain would remain a rule taker if we are part

0:25:24 > 0:25:28of a customs union. There would not be the ability to negotiate

0:25:28 > 0:25:32free-trade agreements in the way people envisaged. That is going back

0:25:32 > 0:25:36on what was promised in the referendum.There would be

0:25:36 > 0:25:40restrictions on the way in which we could negotiate. But it would not

0:25:40 > 0:25:46prevent us from negotiation.On the basis of being friendly it is not

0:25:46 > 0:25:49evidence saying that the EU would give you what you want.What it

0:25:49 > 0:25:55would entail, what Keir Starmer was honest about yesterday, is we would

0:25:55 > 0:26:00have to work closely with other European countries in order to

0:26:00 > 0:26:03negotiate free-trade agreement. Sorry, Nigel you have had a lot to

0:26:03 > 0:26:08say about this.Let her finish. Nigel. You are not telling the

0:26:08 > 0:26:14truth.The European Commission negotiates...You have had a lot to

0:26:14 > 0:26:20say. Not one word is true. The truth is that this is a choice in the end

0:26:20 > 0:26:26about what sort of country we want to be. We cannot be simultaneously a

0:26:26 > 0:26:30high wage, high regulation economy and a low-wage, low regulation

0:26:30 > 0:26:34economy. We have to choose if we want a close trading relationship

0:26:34 > 0:26:38with Europe or not. That is why neither of these parties are honest

0:26:38 > 0:26:43with the public.One other issue is state aid, an important cornerstone

0:26:43 > 0:26:48of what Jeremy Corbyn was to do in terms of economic policy. Labour

0:26:48 > 0:26:52wants to undermine the principle of no state aid, which is a principle

0:26:52 > 0:26:58that is crucial to the internal EU market.Why and how? I disagree with

0:26:58 > 0:27:02that and I slightly disagree with Rebecca in the way it was

0:27:02 > 0:27:05characterised in that interview. If you look at countries like France,

0:27:05 > 0:27:09it is not true to say that remaining within the European Union is a

0:27:09 > 0:27:16barrier to state aid. I think it is a genuine fear but one that is not

0:27:16 > 0:27:21fully borne out by the fact. I think it is possible to remain within the

0:27:21 > 0:27:25European Union, not that we are, we are leaving, but it is possible to

0:27:25 > 0:27:30do that and intervene in markets. I do not think that is a consideration

0:27:30 > 0:27:34that should determine any political party.You were stating earlier that

0:27:34 > 0:27:38it is the commission that is negotiating, but it is also true to

0:27:38 > 0:27:44say that other countries have had bespoke deal. Look at Turkey with

0:27:44 > 0:27:46regard to the customs union and Switzerland with regard to

0:27:46 > 0:27:50bilateral.We were talking in the context of doing trade deals with

0:27:50 > 0:27:53the rest of the world and it is the European Commission that does that.

0:27:53 > 0:27:58Even as members, we did not have that much say. You cannot be in a

0:27:58 > 0:28:06customs union and exert influence on outside trade policy. That is a

0:28:06 > 0:28:10fact. However, what is interesting is one thing is for certain, food

0:28:10 > 0:28:15will stay expensive. It is the other thing the customs union does, it

0:28:15 > 0:28:20determines the tariffs on imports from the rest of the world on items

0:28:20 > 0:28:24like shoes, food, brass, the things that the poorest families spend the

0:28:24 > 0:28:28biggest part of their incomes on. Those things will stay expensive if

0:28:28 > 0:28:31we stay in a customs union and that is something that Labour voters need

0:28:31 > 0:28:41to understand.What do you say to that? There was a line from

0:28:41 > 0:28:44that? There was a line from Jacob Rees Mogg about that.In

0:28:44 > 0:28:46constituencies like mine relatively speaking prices are higher than

0:28:46 > 0:28:51anywhere else. The idea that you could be the champion of the poor.

0:28:51 > 0:28:59Food produced for those on lower incomes in an average family would

0:28:59 > 0:29:03be higher.That is the difference between the customs union and a

0:29:03 > 0:29:09customs union because a customs union enables you to negotiate.

0:29:09 > 0:29:14No-bid does not. You are either part of a legal entity or you are not.

0:29:14 > 0:29:19That is also part of the argument around the single market.Keir

0:29:19 > 0:29:24Starmer implied it would be the customs union.No, a customs union.

0:29:24 > 0:29:29I see what you mean. We are looking to mirror those terms so we can have

0:29:29 > 0:29:34frictionless trade and help to move us forward to solving the problems

0:29:34 > 0:29:37in Northern Ireland. That seems to be a good thing.

0:29:37 > 0:29:37That seems to be a good thing.

0:29:37 > 0:29:40Jeremy Corbyn's shift in direction on Brexit has stoked speculation

0:29:40 > 0:29:42that the government could be defeated if Labour MPs

0:29:42 > 0:29:45and Conservative rebels join forces to inflict a defeat in the Commons

0:29:45 > 0:29:46over the issue of the customs union.

0:29:46 > 0:29:49Well, the international development secretary Liam Fox yesterday urged

0:29:49 > 0:29:52potential rebels to keep an open mind.

0:29:52 > 0:29:55I say to my colleague, Theresa May has kept a broad range

0:29:55 > 0:29:58of views on the European issue in her Cabinet for a reason.

0:29:58 > 0:30:01We sat down with those different views, we looked at the issues,

0:30:01 > 0:30:04we looked at the options and we came to an agreement that

0:30:04 > 0:30:06we are all happy with.

0:30:06 > 0:30:10And I think that when the rest of the Parliamentary party hears,

0:30:10 > 0:30:13on Friday, as the Prime Minister sets it out, what we...

0:30:13 > 0:30:16She's going to win over Anna Soubry, do you think?

0:30:16 > 0:30:20Well, I hope they will have an open mind and listen to what the Prime

0:30:20 > 0:30:22Minister says because I think what the Prime Minister

0:30:22 > 0:30:24will set out will deal with a lot of the reservations

0:30:24 > 0:30:29that they've had.

0:30:29 > 0:30:31Well, one of those potential rebels is the Conservative

0:30:31 > 0:30:33MP Stephen Hammond.

0:30:33 > 0:30:35He's put his name to a cross-party amendment calling for the country

0:30:35 > 0:30:38to remain within a customs union with the EU after Brexit.

0:30:38 > 0:30:44He joins us now.

0:30:44 > 0:30:47Welcome to Daily Politics. You just heard Liam Fox saying your fears

0:30:47 > 0:30:50will be addressed by the Prime Minister in her speech on Friday.

0:30:50 > 0:30:54What does she have to say to keep you add other Tory MPs on-board?I

0:30:54 > 0:31:02think what I hope she's going to say and specify... We were talking a lot

0:31:02 > 0:31:09about a war the customs union. I want to hear her talk about how

0:31:09 > 0:31:13we'll get over nontariff barriers. What would arrangements allow us to

0:31:13 > 0:31:19do in terms of a customs union. I want to hear her talk about all

0:31:19 > 0:31:22these sectors of the UK economy and I want to understand that we will

0:31:22 > 0:31:28look at the real economic and protect what businesses and jobs the

0:31:28 > 0:31:33UK needs.Will you accept anything less than the UK being part of a war

0:31:33 > 0:31:38the customs union?

0:31:40 > 0:31:43the customs union?I -- a or the customs union? I brought the quote

0:31:43 > 0:31:48of the Prime Minister made in her Lancaster house speech in our party

0:31:48 > 0:31:53manifesto. In our party manifesto we are committed to a combo hence if

0:31:53 > 0:31:58free trade and customs agreement. Customs agreement could be a customs

0:31:58 > 0:32:01union. I am prepared to be open-minded.Should the Prime

0:32:01 > 0:32:07Minister say that on Friday in her speech?I think Brexit is a process,

0:32:07 > 0:32:10not just an event and as part of that process we have the

0:32:10 > 0:32:12negotiations which will be taking place later this month as next

0:32:12 > 0:32:17month. As part of the speech, we're talking semantics when it comes to a

0:32:17 > 0:32:23or the customs union. A customs union in itself binds us to a

0:32:23 > 0:32:25collective decision-making browsers when it comes to free trade deals

0:32:25 > 0:32:33which is obviously what were not going to do.The key distinction

0:32:33 > 0:32:40between a or the is a allows us to do our own deals and the will allow

0:32:40 > 0:32:46those deals which you and Liam and others want us to do alongside a

0:32:46 > 0:32:53jury our relationship.There isn't evidence the EU will allow that.

0:32:53 > 0:32:57Would you accept a customs union? No. We are looking for a partnership

0:32:57 > 0:33:00which is separate from the union. We are collectively binding ourselves

0:33:00 > 0:33:04to the EU 27 when it comes to setting tablets that would impose

0:33:04 > 0:33:07higher prices on those goods coming in from outside the EU. We also want

0:33:07 > 0:33:13to ensure we have those deals with the US, with China, the big global

0:33:13 > 0:33:20nations. .It doesn't like to get what you want terms of a customs

0:33:20 > 0:33:23union or partnership. If you don't, will you press ahead voting with

0:33:23 > 0:33:28Labour MPs to force the government to make sure the UK stays within a

0:33:28 > 0:33:32customs union with screen to be technically correct, they'd be

0:33:32 > 0:33:38voting with us. Your voting with each other.I bring Chris back. We

0:33:38 > 0:33:43are very close to an agreement here. I think that with a customs union

0:33:43 > 0:33:47it'll be perfectly possible to agree and secure a frictionless trade and

0:33:47 > 0:33:53the tariff and I hope that nontariff barriers. It will also allow us to

0:33:53 > 0:33:58do outside deals. I'll be looking to see what the difference between a

0:33:58 > 0:34:01customs union and a customs partnership actually is.But are you

0:34:01 > 0:34:06prepared to go through the lobby with Labour colleagues?This is a

0:34:06 > 0:34:10process. Where a long way from that. As Liam has said rightly, I will

0:34:10 > 0:34:13listen to what the primaries says on Friday. Until I have that, I

0:34:13 > 0:34:18wouldn't give a view on something that may or may not happen.What do

0:34:18 > 0:34:21you make of it being turned into a vote of confidence in the Prime

0:34:21 > 0:34:25Minister?I'm sure that won't happen.But if it were to be

0:34:25 > 0:34:28discussed, would that put pressure on you to change your mind to vote

0:34:28 > 0:34:33for an amendment to defeat the government?You heard Mr Corbyn's

0:34:33 > 0:34:37speech today which was vacuous. He had nothing more to say. He restated

0:34:37 > 0:34:41his position he's had all the way along. He had nothing to say about

0:34:41 > 0:34:45the biggest sector of the economy, nontariff barriers. He talked about

0:34:45 > 0:34:48the regulatory race to the bottom which David Davis has already ruled

0:34:48 > 0:34:55out. The answer, if Jeremy Corbyn is the answer, the question is how do

0:34:55 > 0:34:59you destroy UK jobs? I want to do anything to support that.County

0:34:59 > 0:35:06respond to that character Asian -- characterisation?Voting on an issue

0:35:06 > 0:35:08that potentially put him at loggerheads with the Prime Minister.

0:35:08 > 0:35:12The truth of this is that there is very strong cross-party agreement

0:35:12 > 0:35:15that a customs union could potentially solve a lot of the

0:35:15 > 0:35:18problems that we have and it seems to me that we ought to be working

0:35:18 > 0:35:21together in a constructive way to achieve it. I don't think the

0:35:21 > 0:35:26electorate Wood Group ward -- we would any particular party that is

0:35:26 > 0:35:30seeking to make capital out of this. Our primary concern should be how do

0:35:30 > 0:35:33we advance the situation in which we are leaving the European Union and

0:35:33 > 0:35:37we do so on the best terms for British jobs and for Britain?One of

0:35:37 > 0:35:42the things Lisa raises in terms of a solution is to the Northern Irish

0:35:42 > 0:35:45issue, to the border. Being part of a customs union would deal with that

0:35:45 > 0:35:49in a way that hasn't been, even at the end of that first phase of

0:35:49 > 0:35:54negotiations.It is obviously to me else making speech. David Lidington

0:35:54 > 0:35:57will be making a speech on how we want the Brexit process to work for

0:35:57 > 0:36:02all areas of the UK in terms of Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales

0:36:02 > 0:36:06and how we create the internal market. The Prime Minister has

0:36:06 > 0:36:10committed at the end of phase one of negotiations to dealing with the

0:36:10 > 0:36:14issue.It doesn't have a solution. We committed to making sure the Good

0:36:14 > 0:36:19Friday Agreement remains in place. But being committed is not the same

0:36:19 > 0:36:22as having an answer to how we deal with it. If outside the customs

0:36:22 > 0:36:24union there would have to be a border somewhere. Whether it's down

0:36:24 > 0:36:29the sea, which would break up the integrity of the UK as the

0:36:29 > 0:36:32Democratic Unionists see it, or whether there would be border checks

0:36:32 > 0:36:35between the UK and Ireland which would threaten the Good Friday

0:36:35 > 0:36:40Agreement.This will be looked at Friday the draft text is published.

0:36:40 > 0:36:44With a draft comes the ability to extend negotiating positions and you

0:36:44 > 0:36:49know it's right we listened to Ireland's concern, Northern

0:36:49 > 0:36:53Ireland's concerned.What's the solution quiz the yellow -- what's

0:36:53 > 0:37:02the solution?That is taking the situation... When you look at the

0:37:02 > 0:37:05Northern Ireland situation with the border there we have the opportunity

0:37:05 > 0:37:10to look at how we can preserve the union in Northern Ireland but also

0:37:10 > 0:37:14making sure goods and services can flow freely.I understand the aim

0:37:14 > 0:37:17but not the solution if you're outside a customs union.I believe

0:37:17 > 0:37:26we have the opportunity at looking at...There isn't one.Special

0:37:26 > 0:37:29passes, electronic opportunities and looking at how we can create that

0:37:29 > 0:37:33order. It's not a hard border. The Prime Minister has been very clear

0:37:33 > 0:37:37and I believe her when she says we won't go back to hide border. We

0:37:37 > 0:37:40need to allow her the space to negotiate and come up with a decent

0:37:40 > 0:37:43solution.How concerned are you about your colleagues like Stephen

0:37:43 > 0:37:46Hammond who will vote against the government if there isn't some

0:37:46 > 0:37:51indication of a customs union?I was a minister taking through the EU

0:37:51 > 0:37:54withdrawal bill last year when we were looking at devolution in the

0:37:54 > 0:37:57Avent office. We have 60 amendments and one defeat. This is a legal

0:37:57 > 0:38:01process by which we have to listen and that's why the government

0:38:01 > 0:38:05delayed the legislation in order to have the opportunity to react.Come

0:38:05 > 0:38:09back and tell us what you think of the speech on Friday. At some stage.

0:38:09 > 0:38:15I'd be delighted.Any viewers who have a strong allergic reaction to

0:38:15 > 0:38:18more news about Brexit should look away now.

0:38:18 > 0:38:21Because it's shaping up to be another busy week in politics,

0:38:21 > 0:38:23and the "B" word is going to figure throughout.

0:38:23 > 0:38:25Tomorrow, International Trade Secretary Liam Fox will give

0:38:25 > 0:38:26the latest "road to Brexit" speech.

0:38:26 > 0:38:28He is under pressure to justify his claim

0:38:28 > 0:38:31that the benefits of being outside the customs union outweigh

0:38:31 > 0:38:32the potential losses.

0:38:32 > 0:38:34Tomorrow will also see Theresa May update the full cabinet

0:38:34 > 0:38:36on the Brexit Meeting at Chequers.

0:38:36 > 0:38:38On Wednesday the European commissioners will publish its full

0:38:38 > 0:38:39legal text of Britain's exit treaty.

0:38:39 > 0:38:42That's the deal that was struck at the end of the first

0:38:42 > 0:38:44round of negotiations in December.

0:38:44 > 0:38:47Theresa May will meet EU President Donald Tusk

0:38:47 > 0:38:48in Downing Street on Thursday.

0:38:48 > 0:38:50And then on Friday, Theresa May will give her fourth

0:38:50 > 0:38:57major Brexit speech.

0:38:57 > 0:38:59Look at this scene!

0:38:59 > 0:39:02We're joined now by two journalists who can tell their managed

0:39:02 > 0:39:03divergence from their customs union.

0:39:03 > 0:39:06It's Jessica Elgot of the Guardian and Jack Blanchard of Politico.

0:39:06 > 0:39:09We've kindly given them a reason to take a break from their nice warm

0:39:09 > 0:39:13offices on College Green outside Parliament.

0:39:13 > 0:39:19You'll never agreed to do this again, will you, if the weather is

0:39:19 > 0:39:23like this. No need to brush the snow of your coat! Your reaction to

0:39:23 > 0:39:27Jeremy Corbyn's speech. Does it change the terms of crit trade

0:39:27 > 0:39:33between the two parties?Its doors. There is now really sort of clear

0:39:33 > 0:39:37water in between the Conservatives and Labour. Not perhaps if you dig

0:39:37 > 0:39:44really deep into the detail of Corbyn's speech. He says we want a

0:39:44 > 0:39:47special partnership with the EU and even echoed the phrase the premises

0:39:47 > 0:39:50to use is quite often that we are leaving the EU was not Europe.

0:39:50 > 0:39:53There's still a lot of striking similarity apart from on this one

0:39:53 > 0:39:57key issue which is that they would seek a customs union with the EU

0:39:57 > 0:40:05which would mean there is some limit on the amount of trade deals Britain

0:40:05 > 0:40:09could do.How much pressure does it but on the Prime Minister?A huge

0:40:09 > 0:40:11mind. We have the vote looming on the customs union. We thought it

0:40:11 > 0:40:15would be in the next week but the Tories have put it back now until

0:40:15 > 0:40:19date unknown in the next few weeks because the truth is there not sure

0:40:19 > 0:40:22they've got the numbers to win it. If enough Tory rebels joined with

0:40:22 > 0:40:25Labour to defeat the Prime Minister I really don't know what happens

0:40:25 > 0:40:30then. It's a huge problem for her and I guess the crunch comes, can

0:40:30 > 0:40:33those Tory rebels be peeled off once they realise the potential

0:40:33 > 0:40:38consequences of them doing that would be bringing down the whole

0:40:38 > 0:40:42government.Is that how you see it too, Jessica, that is talked about

0:40:42 > 0:40:47turning any vote on the trade built around this amendment to stay in a

0:40:47 > 0:40:51customs union that's actually been proposed by Anna Soubry could be a

0:40:51 > 0:40:55vote of confidence on the Prime Minister?That's the argument Tory

0:40:55 > 0:40:58whips will be making to their quivering colleagues on that. It's

0:40:58 > 0:41:03not quite the same as voting on an amendment. The withdrawal bill which

0:41:03 > 0:41:06is about parliamentary democracy and getting a vote on the final deal.

0:41:06 > 0:41:11This is about really keen tenant of what the Prime Minister's

0:41:11 > 0:41:14negotiating strategy is. I don't see how it's anything other than a

0:41:14 > 0:41:18confidence vote on the Prime Minister. There is another key

0:41:18 > 0:41:21problem to getting this vote through, that is Labour

0:41:21 > 0:41:27Eurosceptics. Labour Eurosceptics voted on the amendment to defeat the

0:41:27 > 0:41:30government last hurrah. This is a different ask them and it will be up

0:41:30 > 0:41:34to Labour whips to make sure they can keep them in mind, as well.What

0:41:34 > 0:41:38does it do, Jack, to the 80 Labour MPs or so who would like Jeremy

0:41:38 > 0:41:41Corbyn to go further than just saying the UK would remain in a

0:41:41 > 0:41:45customs union under Labour's policy, but actually that Labour should

0:41:45 > 0:41:48confirm it would remain in the single market with eye and it step

0:41:48 > 0:41:51in the right direction as far as they're concerned. They want Corbyn

0:41:51 > 0:41:55to go much further than that and I don't think he's going to do that.

0:41:55 > 0:42:00The Labour leaders have been very -- Labour leaders have been clear that

0:42:00 > 0:42:03staying in the single market would maintain free movement and no that

0:42:03 > 0:42:07would alienate a fusion of their own voters. It would put them over to

0:42:07 > 0:42:12the charge that there are defying the will of the people.I don't

0:42:12 > 0:42:15think you will go that far. Those 80 MPs I think would be reasonably

0:42:15 > 0:42:20happy that they helped to ship later into a position to stay closer to

0:42:20 > 0:42:24Europe than they might otherwise have been.Let talk about Ken

0:42:24 > 0:42:29Livingstone, the former Labour Mayor of London. His suspension from the

0:42:29 > 0:42:33party is due to end at the end of April. What is actually happening in

0:42:33 > 0:42:38terms of him being readmitted to the party winner hasn't yet been an

0:42:38 > 0:42:43enquiry into what he said in terms of Hitler supporting Zionism?

0:42:43 > 0:42:47Technically what would happen is if somebody is suspended as a member

0:42:47 > 0:42:50then once the suspension ends they continue to be a member. The problem

0:42:50 > 0:42:55that Labour MPs, some of whom are incredibly opposed to Ken

0:42:55 > 0:43:00Livingstone being readmitted, is that the control of the NEC, which

0:43:00 > 0:43:04is Labour's governing body, which decides on a lot of these matters,

0:43:04 > 0:43:08they decide on whether to have an enquiry into this, is now very much

0:43:08 > 0:43:11controlled by supporters of Jeremy Corbyn. That is thoroughly mean

0:43:11 > 0:43:16supporters of Ken Livingstone, but those who want to push Ken's

0:43:16 > 0:43:22suspension have a task.I was told by someone in Labour HQ some weeks

0:43:22 > 0:43:25ago that they have no doubts Ken Livingstone was coming back into the

0:43:25 > 0:43:28party.Thank you very much. Quickly run back inside! Are

0:43:28 > 0:43:35you in favour of Ken Livingstone being readmitted?I think he should

0:43:35 > 0:43:38have been expelled in the first place.Do you think that the

0:43:38 > 0:43:41decisions the NEC should make?We have to follow due process but my

0:43:41 > 0:43:44feeling is the NEC will discuss this at some point before the suspension

0:43:44 > 0:43:46ends and Obee

0:43:46 > 0:43:50at some point before the suspension ends and Obee, people urging them

0:43:50 > 0:43:52that people who express views like that should not be in the Labour

0:43:52 > 0:43:54Party.

0:43:54 > 0:43:57Later today MPs will be debating another aspect of life after Brexit

0:43:57 > 0:44:00when they respond to a petition calling for an end to the export

0:44:00 > 0:44:01of live animals for slaughter.

0:44:01 > 0:44:03It's been an emotive issue for years, with campaigners

0:44:03 > 0:44:06blockading ports to stop what they see as a cruel trade

0:44:06 > 0:44:07which can mean animals travelling long distances

0:44:07 > 0:44:08to abattoirs in Europe.

0:44:08 > 0:44:11The broadcaster Selina Scott says that once free of EU rules,

0:44:11 > 0:44:13the UK should ban it altogether.

0:44:13 > 0:44:19Here's her soapbox.

0:44:30 > 0:44:32I have a farm in this beautiful corner of North Yorkshire.

0:44:32 > 0:44:35My life these days is tied to the seasons

0:44:35 > 0:44:37and the farming calendar.

0:44:37 > 0:44:40Soon, it will be spring, and in these fields all around

0:44:40 > 0:44:43here there'll be newborn lambs frolicking in the fresh

0:44:43 > 0:44:46air with their mothers.

0:44:46 > 0:44:48The life of a lamb, unfortunately, is a short one.

0:44:48 > 0:44:53Once they're a year, old and after fattening,

0:44:53 > 0:44:55Once they're a year old and after fattening,

0:44:55 > 0:44:57they're taken to the local market and sold for slaughter.

0:44:57 > 0:45:00Or worse.

0:45:04 > 0:45:07It was the monks of great Cistercian abbeys, like Rievaulx here,

0:45:07 > 0:45:11who brought huge flocks of sheep to the area and made immense amounts

0:45:11 > 0:45:14of money out of the sale of wool - riches that Henry VIII seized along

0:45:14 > 0:45:18with their land.

0:45:18 > 0:45:21600 years later, and the sale of one lamb at auction can fetch

0:45:21 > 0:45:25between £80 and £100 - not nearly enough to pay

0:45:25 > 0:45:31for the full-time shepherding skills needed to care for sheep.

0:45:31 > 0:45:34Skills that are now a dying art.

0:45:34 > 0:45:38Sheep - plain and simple, these days - have become industrialised.

0:45:38 > 0:45:42They've become mere commodities, no longer treated as sentient beings -

0:45:42 > 0:45:50animals that can feel pain.

0:45:50 > 0:45:53And we as a nation of animal lovers - and to our everlasting shame -

0:45:53 > 0:45:56have turned a blind eye to the cruelty inflicted

0:45:56 > 0:46:02on our sheep and lambs once they're sold at auction.

0:46:02 > 0:46:05The condoning of the trade in live lambs across the European Union

0:46:05 > 0:46:08is absolutely abhorrent.

0:46:08 > 0:46:11In the UK, thousands of lambs and sheep are herded

0:46:11 > 0:46:14into overcrowded trucks from counties like Cumbria

0:46:14 > 0:46:18and Yorkshire, and driven hundreds of miles, without food or fresh

0:46:18 > 0:46:23water, to be shipped from Ramsgate in Kent to revolting abattoirs

0:46:23 > 0:46:27somewhere in southern or Eastern Europe.

0:46:27 > 0:46:32Instead of a humane killing in a local abattoir,

0:46:32 > 0:46:34sold on as a carcass, these poor creatures have

0:46:34 > 0:46:38to suffocate in transit, suffer with broken bones and damaged

0:46:38 > 0:46:41bodies, until they reach their destination, where they meet

0:46:41 > 0:46:45an unspeakable death.

0:46:45 > 0:46:49For years, the EU has been the prime enabler of this cruelty.

0:46:49 > 0:46:53And successive UK governments have supinely acquiesced.

0:46:53 > 0:46:58Well, we're at a turning point, and now there is no excuse.

0:46:58 > 0:47:00We're leaving the EU.

0:47:00 > 0:47:03We no longer have to follow EU rules on live transportation of animals

0:47:03 > 0:47:05across the continent.

0:47:05 > 0:47:07We must finish off this trade once and for all

0:47:07 > 0:47:15and with immediate effect.

0:47:15 > 0:47:21And Selina Scott joins us now.

0:47:21 > 0:47:24Welcome to the Daily Politics. What do you say to those within the

0:47:24 > 0:47:27farming industry itself who say that leaving the EU will put their

0:47:27 > 0:47:34industry at risk?First of all, we are not talking about dealers, but a

0:47:34 > 0:47:38lot of farmers do not like this business and do not want this

0:47:38 > 0:47:41business of animals going off like this. They send them to market and

0:47:41 > 0:47:47they sell them. There is nothing they can do about it after that. The

0:47:47 > 0:47:51other point is this is still a very marginal trade. One in 300 sheep is

0:47:51 > 0:47:57sent to Europe and to far-flung places further on from Europe. But

0:47:57 > 0:48:04even so it is a filthy business. I talked about sheep. Calves are being

0:48:04 > 0:48:09sent, I'm weaned calves from Northern Ireland spent six days in

0:48:09 > 0:48:16trucks all the way to Spain. As a nation do we care about the animals

0:48:16 > 0:48:20that we put into these situations? Do we care that they suffer? That is

0:48:20 > 0:48:28basically the question. Farmers are on the whole behind it, but it is

0:48:28 > 0:48:31now down to politicians to do something about it.Do you accept

0:48:31 > 0:48:37that there are some journeys, going to France and Belgium for example,

0:48:37 > 0:48:42might be shorter than going to other parts of the UK?No, the fact is we

0:48:42 > 0:48:47are talking about welfare. If you send any animal over a long distance

0:48:47 > 0:48:51over water, you do not know where they are going to end up. Yes, a

0:48:51 > 0:48:58farmer consent his or her animals to an abattoir in France. It can then

0:48:58 > 0:49:03be re-exported to Turkey for example. The other day a Brazilian

0:49:03 > 0:49:06court stopped the live transportation of animals from

0:49:06 > 0:49:11Brazil to abattoirs in Turkey because of the grotesque conditions

0:49:11 > 0:49:16that Turkish abattoirs put their animals through. This has been

0:49:16 > 0:49:19happening for 40 years.What is the government doing about it? They have

0:49:19 > 0:49:28said once they have left the EU, there will be the ability to

0:49:28 > 0:49:33consider further this area. It is opaque.Once Brexit happens we will

0:49:33 > 0:49:38have the opportunity to create our own separate, new, public body that

0:49:38 > 0:49:44will look at environmental standards and public welfare.Should

0:49:44 > 0:49:49environment be a major issue?There is already legislation to bring in

0:49:49 > 0:49:55CCTV in abattoirs in this country, but there is a balance about the

0:49:55 > 0:49:58standards not being abroad. We have higher standards in the UK and it is

0:49:58 > 0:50:02right that we need to look at this going forward. It could be an

0:50:02 > 0:50:09enormous benefit.So you are warm to the idea.And you, Lisa? Very warm.

0:50:09 > 0:50:13It is not true to say there is nothing we can do at the moment

0:50:13 > 0:50:16because although it is right to say the single market potentially

0:50:16 > 0:50:20prevents us from banning live exports of animals, it does not

0:50:20 > 0:50:24prevent us from putting stricter standards in place into the court

0:50:24 > 0:50:27system at the moment. I would like to see something done now rather

0:50:27 > 0:50:31than wrangle about what we do in the future with a view to ending this

0:50:31 > 0:50:36practice.Do you agree, more could be done right now before leaving the

0:50:36 > 0:50:41EU?What is stopping us? In an agricultural bill stop it now,

0:50:41 > 0:50:46finish it. It has been going on for 40 years. This is a country that

0:50:46 > 0:50:53thinks of itself as a nation of animal lovers. People like me, lots

0:50:53 > 0:50:56and lots of people feel marginalised by this behaviour and we should stop

0:50:56 > 0:51:00it now.If it could be done now without or even before leaving the

0:51:00 > 0:51:03EU, how much pressure can you put on the government, the current

0:51:03 > 0:51:11government to take you up on this? There is a petition and if anyone is

0:51:11 > 0:51:14listening and wants to sign it, there is a petition called petition

0:51:14 > 0:51:19200, go to the Parliament website. Put your name to it because it is

0:51:19 > 0:51:25the power of the people that will change this. If it is left to the

0:51:25 > 0:51:27politicians, we will argue about the rights and wrongs and whether the

0:51:27 > 0:51:32farmers wanted and the dealers wanted, allowing unscrupulous people

0:51:32 > 0:51:36to take advantage of this transition period we are supposed to be going

0:51:36 > 0:51:41through and that is not good enough. Except the Scottish Government is

0:51:41 > 0:51:45not keen on what you are proposing and they want to stay in the EU.

0:51:45 > 0:51:48They say it would damage the livestock industry there so you will

0:51:48 > 0:51:56not have their support.I don't know how the spokesman for the Scottish

0:51:56 > 0:52:00parliament can live with himself when he sees I'm weaned calves taken

0:52:00 > 0:52:04off their mothers and put into trucks and spending six days

0:52:04 > 0:52:11travelling. How can a man like that get up in the morning and say he is

0:52:11 > 0:52:15doing his best?He will say, and I am not a spokesman for the Scottish

0:52:15 > 0:52:22Government, but he will say it will damage the livestock industry.

0:52:23 > 0:52:24damage the livestock industry.The English system of subsidies which

0:52:24 > 0:52:30are given to farmers for acreage. They do not have to raise animals to

0:52:30 > 0:52:36get the subsidy. In Scotland it is per head of sheep or cattle. It is

0:52:36 > 0:52:39different. Eventually this all has to be brought into line. It is up to

0:52:39 > 0:52:43the politicians to work out how Scotland comes into line with

0:52:43 > 0:52:46England and help England comes into line with Scotland. The most

0:52:46 > 0:52:51important thing is the welfare of animals.Selina Scott, thank you.

0:52:51 > 0:52:52Selina Scott, thank you.

0:52:52 > 0:52:55Now, you may be aware of the campaign to give 16-year-olds

0:52:55 > 0:52:59across the UK the right to vote - it's been endorsed by

0:52:59 > 0:53:00the Labour Party, among others, although it's opposed

0:53:00 > 0:53:03by the government which argues the voting age should remain at 18.

0:53:03 > 0:53:06But one campaigner says he wants it to go even lower,

0:53:06 > 0:53:14although we suspect he may just be trying to make a point.

0:53:16 > 0:53:20At age 12 you can have your ears pierced, but you are not allowed to

0:53:20 > 0:53:20vote.

0:53:47 > 0:53:50The man you saw there launching his campaign,

0:53:50 > 0:53:52which we assume is satirical, is Tom Harwood.

0:53:52 > 0:53:55He joins us now, as does Liam Preston from the YMCA

0:53:55 > 0:53:57which is campaigning - entirely sincerely I think -

0:53:57 > 0:54:03for the voting age to be lowered to 16.

0:54:03 > 0:54:08Is it a joke?It raises an important point. That is a lot of the

0:54:08 > 0:54:13arguments about votes at 16 can be applied to 12-year-olds will stop

0:54:13 > 0:54:17you might say that 12-year-olds are not allowed to buy alcohol, buy

0:54:17 > 0:54:21cigarettes, drive, fight for the country, marry without permission,

0:54:21 > 0:54:26but that is true of 16-year-olds as well. When you look at the issue of

0:54:26 > 0:54:31lowering the franchise, we need to rest it on what we consider to be an

0:54:31 > 0:54:38adult in this country. Lowering it to 16 races of difficult questions

0:54:38 > 0:54:44about responsibilities and rights of 16-year-olds.What do you say? It

0:54:44 > 0:54:49has raised the awareness of the issue of votes at 16. Young people

0:54:49 > 0:54:53at 16 and 17 are mature enough to vote, they are well educated enough

0:54:53 > 0:54:57to vote. They are already engaged in the type of issues debated at

0:54:57 > 0:55:03elections. When they are given the opportunity, like in the Scottish

0:55:03 > 0:55:06referendum, they will come out and vote and I cannot see why we are not

0:55:06 > 0:55:15lowering it to that franchise for a more equal society.It is a question

0:55:15 > 0:55:20of what age you become a citizen. 16 is the suggestion. People can

0:55:20 > 0:55:25register to vote at 16, but they cannot vote. In Scotland they can

0:55:25 > 0:55:32register at 14. Soon we will be registering at ten. You have to ask

0:55:32 > 0:55:37what is the space people can have to grow up without being bombarded by

0:55:37 > 0:55:42messages from politicians. Look at Nicaraguan, Ecuador, Argentina,

0:55:42 > 0:55:51Brazil, most of these countries are 18.It is quite clever stunt. We

0:55:51 > 0:55:56mature at different ages, you do not become an adult overnight. You can

0:55:56 > 0:56:02be criminally responsible for your actions at ten. It seems to me that

0:56:02 > 0:56:06what we are arguing about is a question of where you strike the

0:56:06 > 0:56:10right balance. For me the question has always been when we have

0:56:10 > 0:56:14extended the franchise it has always been a good thing. The question

0:56:14 > 0:56:19should be not why do it? But it should be why not. In the case of

0:56:19 > 0:56:2616-year-olds at the moment I cannot see any reasons for not to.I would

0:56:26 > 0:56:31say the arguments about 12-year-olds could be applied to 16-year-olds.

0:56:31 > 0:56:3416-year-olds have the right political knowledge and education

0:56:34 > 0:56:38and that is true, but I do not think we should be basing the franchise on

0:56:38 > 0:56:42knowledge and education.Can the same arguments be applied to

0:56:42 > 0:56:4812-year-olds are 16-year-olds?When you are 12, you are in a very

0:56:48 > 0:56:57different place in life than when you are 16 and 17. 16 and

0:56:57 > 0:57:0017-year-olds know how mature they are and they want to engage in

0:57:00 > 0:57:04society and they want to shake democracy. One of the issues is that

0:57:04 > 0:57:08politicians do not engage enough with young people and this will give

0:57:08 > 0:57:11an opportunity for parties to look at themselves, what can they do for

0:57:11 > 0:57:18young people?I have a undermining the campaign being run?If anything

0:57:18 > 0:57:23undermines the campaign it is people who campaign for votes at

0:57:23 > 0:57:2716-year-olds comparing themselves to suffragettes. You might not have

0:57:27 > 0:57:31done, but many campaigners have them and that is what I am trying to

0:57:31 > 0:57:35satirise. There is not the same systematic discrimination against

0:57:35 > 0:57:42the marginalised groups in the past and against 16-year-old and

0:57:42 > 0:57:4717-year-olds.But they are more affected by the decisions we make.

0:57:47 > 0:57:51Climate change is a good example. If we do not deal with it, that

0:57:51 > 0:57:56generation will be more affected. And 12-year-olds even more affected.

0:57:56 > 0:58:01Generally speaking we do not accept 12-year-olds operate independently.

0:58:01 > 0:58:05They have someone at home looking after them, they do not go out very

0:58:05 > 0:58:10much by themselves. 16 is different. The age of majority, the age in

0:58:10 > 0:58:16which someone comes into charge of their own actions and block liable

0:58:16 > 0:58:25for someone else, that is 18.Is it because they do not have a say?

0:58:25 > 0:58:30Arguing that this is a transactional approach and if we do not give

0:58:30 > 0:58:3616-year-olds vote, politicians will ignore issues, misses the point.

0:58:36 > 0:58:40When it comes to looking at youth services, when we look at what we

0:58:40 > 0:58:45want to provide in the future, and one of the key arguments for

0:58:45 > 0:58:49reducing the deficit was making sure that we did not saddle the next

0:58:49 > 0:58:52generation with it.We have to do a whole programme on this.

0:58:52 > 0:58:55We have to do a whole programme on this.

0:58:55 > 0:58:56That's all for today.

0:58:56 > 0:58:57Thanks to our guests.

0:58:57 > 0:58:59The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.