0:00:40 > 0:00:43Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:43 > 0:00:46Forget the weather forecast - it's a Brexit blizzard this week.
0:00:46 > 0:00:49The International Trade Secretary Liam Fox will spell out why
0:00:49 > 0:00:52he thinks Jeremy Corbyn was wrong to bring the idea of a customs union
0:00:52 > 0:00:57post Brexit back in from the cold.
0:00:57 > 0:01:00As the EU gets ready to release a legal document of what was agreed
0:01:00 > 0:01:06between the EU and UK on the Irish border in December, are the two
0:01:06 > 0:01:08sides further apart than we thought?
0:01:08 > 0:01:11Could changes to the benefit system coming into force next month leave
0:01:11 > 0:01:13thousands of low-income families with what amounts
0:01:13 > 0:01:15to a second mortgage?
0:01:15 > 0:01:18We look at the proposals.
0:01:18 > 0:01:21And, as two vocal critics of Jeremy Corbyn stand down
0:01:21 > 0:01:24from key party positions, what does the future hold
0:01:24 > 0:01:27for the Labour Party?
0:01:35 > 0:01:38All that in the next hour and with us for the whole
0:01:38 > 0:01:44of the programme today, Mayor of Bristol Marvin Rees.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47Welcome to the programme.Hello.
0:01:47 > 0:01:49First, as the Labour Party cemented its position on staying
0:01:49 > 0:01:52in a customs union with the EU yesterday, International Trade
0:01:52 > 0:01:55Secretary Liam Fox is set to hit back in a speech in London shortly.
0:01:55 > 0:01:59Norman Smith is there.
0:01:59 > 0:02:02Norman, what are we expecting the international trade secretary to
0:02:02 > 0:02:09say?I think it is largely going to be a restatement of arguments we are
0:02:09 > 0:02:12familiar with, namely that by leaving the customs union the UK
0:02:12 > 0:02:16will have the ability to strike its own free trade deals and look for
0:02:16 > 0:02:21deals outside the EU, which is the real growth area in terms of the
0:02:21 > 0:02:27world economy. For many Brexiteers, that is a golden opportunity of
0:02:27 > 0:02:32Brexit, to take advantage of all of these untapped markets. The trouble
0:02:32 > 0:02:38is, into that Frey has stepped Sir Martin Donnelly. Who is he? He is
0:02:38 > 0:02:42the man who used to run Liam Fox's department until March last year so
0:02:42 > 0:02:48he was sitting next to Liam Fox, coming up with all these plans, and
0:02:48 > 0:02:55this he has taken something of all Dr Fox's argument, saying that
0:02:55 > 0:02:59leaving the customs union and single market is such a bad idea, would be
0:02:59 > 0:03:03so damaging, that a future UK Government is probably going to have
0:03:03 > 0:03:08to ask to rejoin the single market and the customs union because, he
0:03:08 > 0:03:11says, it would place a British companies at a competitive
0:03:11 > 0:03:16disadvantage with the rest of the EU. He suggests it would deter
0:03:16 > 0:03:22inward investment, that British producers would be less competitive
0:03:22 > 0:03:26because they would not have to abide by the rigours of the internal
0:03:26 > 0:03:29market and he says the UK would go from being one of the most open
0:03:29 > 0:03:33economies in the world to being one of the most bureaucratic, and he
0:03:33 > 0:03:36lists all the different bits of regulation and paperwork British
0:03:36 > 0:03:42companies will have to comply with to export to the EU - country of
0:03:42 > 0:03:45origin regulations, hygiene regulations, security regulations,
0:03:45 > 0:03:51VAT payments and, crucially, he says that if we hope we will be able to
0:03:51 > 0:03:55secure more lucrative deals outside the EU than through the EU, we are
0:03:55 > 0:04:01kidding ourselves.
0:04:01 > 0:04:04If you look at where we are now, with fair and equal access
0:04:04 > 0:04:06to the very large, rich EU market, which is nearly half
0:04:06 > 0:04:09of our service and goods exports, plus preferential access to other
0:04:09 > 0:04:12markets, which gets us up to about three fifths of our trade,
0:04:12 > 0:04:16if you are going to give that up for the promise of some bilateral
0:04:16 > 0:04:19deals with markets that are much less important to us,
0:04:19 > 0:04:23well, it's like giving up a three course meal for a packet of crisps.
0:04:23 > 0:04:24It's just not equivalent.
0:04:24 > 0:04:26And we have to recognise that reality before
0:04:26 > 0:04:34we take this decision.
0:04:34 > 0:04:39And as if that wasn't good enough, he also says the British
0:04:39 > 0:04:43government's objective of negotiating near frictionless trade
0:04:43 > 0:04:46with the EU outside the single market doesn't need a crack
0:04:46 > 0:04:51negotiating team, he says, it needs a fairy godmother!But is fairly
0:04:51 > 0:04:56crushing stuff, isn't it, for Liam Fox personally, and the Government?
0:04:56 > 0:05:00How will he take that on, the international trade secretary, do
0:05:00 > 0:05:05you think?It is a fundamental disagreement. We have already heard
0:05:05 > 0:05:08a little bit from Boris Johnson when he was asked about this, saying he
0:05:08 > 0:05:13profoundly disagrees with the analysis. They believe that the real
0:05:13 > 0:05:19golden goose of Brexit are these markets outside the EU, which we
0:05:19 > 0:05:24have failed to tap into at the moment. But let's be honest, the
0:05:24 > 0:05:28timing of the speech could hardly be worse because we have Liam Fox
0:05:28 > 0:05:33making one of the keynote Brexit speeches, the road to Brexit, we
0:05:33 > 0:05:37have heard from Boris Johnson, David Davis and a little bit from Mrs May,
0:05:37 > 0:05:42we will hear more at the end of the week. This was Liam Fox's moment and
0:05:42 > 0:05:45along comes as former top civil servant trying to debunk everything
0:05:45 > 0:05:50he's got to say and why this matters, I think, is because this
0:05:50 > 0:05:54follows very obviously from Jeremy Corbyn positioning Labour on the
0:05:54 > 0:05:59side of the customs union. We know the CBI and the IoD even seem
0:05:59 > 0:06:03sympathetic to the customs union and added on top of that we have Liam
0:06:03 > 0:06:06Fox's former top man saying you would be daft to leave the customs
0:06:06 > 0:06:11union and the single market.Thank you, we will let you go and listen
0:06:11 > 0:06:17to the speech. Marvin, Bristol voted nearly 62 % to remain. Following on
0:06:17 > 0:06:20the back of Jeremy Corbyn confirming Labour's position of wanting a
0:06:20 > 0:06:24customs union with the EU, would you like to see him go further and say
0:06:24 > 0:06:28Britain should remain in the single market as well?I think this is the
0:06:28 > 0:06:32best we can do while not being part of the EU so I welcome it absolutely
0:06:32 > 0:06:36but it lives in our city's interest to remain as close as we can. 88 the
0:06:36 > 0:06:41centre of our exports from Bristol go to our EU partners and I have
0:06:41 > 0:06:44heard businesses in the city already talked about losing orders as firms
0:06:44 > 0:06:48on the continent begin to make decisions that disadvantage
0:06:48 > 0:06:51Bristol-based business is. What we need at a local level is cities all
0:06:51 > 0:06:56around this country to have some certainty. One of the good things we
0:06:56 > 0:07:00have got from Jeremy's speech is a good idea of what is going to happen
0:07:00 > 0:07:03and what we are not getting from Government is any clarity about what
0:07:03 > 0:07:09is on the table.Why not push it further? Many Labour MPs want to see
0:07:09 > 0:07:13Labour say that Britain would remain part of the single market.We need
0:07:13 > 0:07:18to respect the vote, I respect the national referendum result but in my
0:07:18 > 0:07:22own city as an elected leader, I want to push to keep the city
0:07:22 > 0:07:27connected to the European market. I support what Jeremy is doing and we
0:07:27 > 0:07:31must remain as close as we can to protect the interests of our
0:07:31 > 0:07:35businesses and all the employment that comes with it. This argument
0:07:35 > 0:07:39about sovereignty is one that I get incredibly frustrated with. If we
0:07:39 > 0:07:43impoverish people we are not more sovereign.What about Labour leaders
0:07:43 > 0:07:47who said they wanted to take back control?I don't agree. The whole
0:07:47 > 0:07:51argument about taking back control is a false argument. If we
0:07:51 > 0:07:55impoverish people they are not more sovereign.Let's leave it there.
0:07:55 > 0:07:57Now it's time for our daily quiz.
0:07:57 > 0:07:59Post Brexit, one of Winston Churchill's favourite tipples
0:07:59 > 0:08:02is going to be sold in pint-sized bottles - a size that Churchill
0:08:02 > 0:08:03considered to be just perfect.
0:08:03 > 0:08:04But which drink is it?
0:08:04 > 0:08:05Is it...
0:08:05 > 0:08:07A - a dry martini?
0:08:07 > 0:08:08B - champagne?
0:08:08 > 0:08:09C - brandy?
0:08:09 > 0:08:14Or D - claret?
0:08:14 > 0:08:16They look very inviting!
0:08:16 > 0:08:19At the end of the show, Marvin will give us the correct answer.
0:08:19 > 0:08:26I am not anexpert!
0:08:26 > 0:08:29Tomorrow, the European Commission will agree a draft legal text that
0:08:29 > 0:08:31aims to translate December's phase one agreement in the Brexit
0:08:31 > 0:08:33negotiations into a binding legal document.
0:08:33 > 0:08:36That draft will then be looked over by the individual member states
0:08:36 > 0:08:38before it's used as the basis for further negotiations
0:08:38 > 0:08:39with the UK.
0:08:39 > 0:08:41You'll recall sufficient progress was reached in December
0:08:41 > 0:08:43on three main issues - namely citizens' rights,
0:08:43 > 0:08:50the divorce bill and maintaining an open Irish border after Brexit.
0:08:50 > 0:08:52But with many on all sides claiming the deal fudged
0:08:52 > 0:08:54the question of the border, it looks set to return
0:08:54 > 0:08:57to centre stage on Wednesday.
0:08:57 > 0:09:00In December, the UK and EU agreed on three options
0:09:00 > 0:09:04to ensure there wouldn't be a "hard border" in Ireland...
0:09:04 > 0:09:07A new comprehensive free trade agreement that would remove the need
0:09:07 > 0:09:11for any real change at the border...
0:09:11 > 0:09:14Or the UK could propose specific technical solutions
0:09:14 > 0:09:17to mitigate the need for physical infrastructure.
0:09:17 > 0:09:22Or, in the absence of other agreed solutions, the UK would maintain
0:09:22 > 0:09:25full alignment with EU regulations on both sides of the border that
0:09:25 > 0:09:30support North-South co-operation and the all-Ireland economy.
0:09:30 > 0:09:34The DUP were concerned to ensure there was no economic border down
0:09:34 > 0:09:36the Irish Sea in such a scenario.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38So a paragraph was inserted asserting there'd be no
0:09:38 > 0:09:41regulatory barriers to trade between Northern Ireland
0:09:41 > 0:09:45and Great Britain.
0:09:45 > 0:09:47That has led to conflicting interpretations - with some
0:09:47 > 0:09:52in the EU assuming that the logic dictates the UK as a whole
0:09:52 > 0:09:57would have to remain tightly bound to EU rules and institutions -
0:09:57 > 0:10:03institutions the UK has repeatedly insisted it will leave after Brexit.
0:10:03 > 0:10:06Some in the UK believe alignment can mean reaching the same standards
0:10:06 > 0:10:10while diverging in the exact form of regulations
0:10:10 > 0:10:13and that full alignment need only be put in place for very specific areas
0:10:13 > 0:10:18of North-South co-operation.
0:10:18 > 0:10:20Well, earlier, Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson
0:10:20 > 0:10:23was on the Today programme - and he was asked how the UK's plans
0:10:23 > 0:10:25for the border would work.
0:10:25 > 0:10:29We think that we can have very efficient facilitation systems
0:10:29 > 0:10:33to make sure there's no need for a hard border, excessive
0:10:33 > 0:10:37checks at the frontier between Northern Ireland
0:10:37 > 0:10:40and the Republic and, you know, for people listening...
0:10:40 > 0:10:42You think we can have, though...
0:10:42 > 0:10:43There's no border...
0:10:43 > 0:10:45It's not good enough to think you can have them,
0:10:45 > 0:10:47because the other side don't believe you.
0:10:47 > 0:10:51There's no border between Islington or Camden and Westminster.
0:10:51 > 0:10:54There's no border between Camden and Westminster but when I was Mayor
0:10:54 > 0:10:59of London, we anaesthetically and invisibly took of millions
0:10:59 > 0:11:03of pounds from the accounts of people travelling between those
0:11:03 > 0:11:08two boroughs without any need for border checks whatever.
0:11:08 > 0:11:09There are all sorts of things...
0:11:09 > 0:11:12Come on, you can't compare two boroughs of London with the kinds
0:11:12 > 0:11:15of difference in the arrangements that would be in place after Brexit
0:11:15 > 0:11:17between the UK and the EU.
0:11:17 > 0:11:20No, I think it's a very relevant comparison.
0:11:20 > 0:11:22Boris Johnson there.
0:11:22 > 0:11:24Well, we can speak now about the prospects for customs
0:11:24 > 0:11:27arrangements after Brexit to Allie Renison - she's the head
0:11:27 > 0:11:32of Europe and trade policy at the Institute of Directors.
0:11:32 > 0:11:37Let's pick-up on Boris Johnson's assertion that there is a comparison
0:11:37 > 0:11:40of boarding a hard border in Northern Ireland to those managing
0:11:40 > 0:11:45the boundary between two London local authorities. Do you agree?I
0:11:45 > 0:11:48think what the Foreign Secretary may have been trying to do was to make
0:11:48 > 0:11:52an argument to say that you can use technology as far as is possible to
0:11:52 > 0:11:56come up with some solutions. I'm not sure the example was totally
0:11:56 > 0:11:59comparable if I'm on us because you are talking about putting a frontier
0:11:59 > 0:12:03border between the UK and the rest of the EU going forward, so I think
0:12:03 > 0:12:09the scale is slightly different.Is a customs union, in the way Jeremy
0:12:09 > 0:12:12Corbyn, the Labour leader, has outlined, sufficient to solve the
0:12:12 > 0:12:17problem of the border after Brexit? No, it is a very important these but
0:12:17 > 0:12:20is by no means what would be necessary to guarantee frictionless
0:12:20 > 0:12:23trade, simply because it deals with the duty element of what happens
0:12:23 > 0:12:27when goods cross borders, which is the traditional way customs border
0:12:27 > 0:12:31is manifest themselves but it doesn't deal with the regulatory
0:12:31 > 0:12:35architecture. These days a lot of checks pertain not only to whether
0:12:35 > 0:12:38you are paying the correct amount of duty when a good crosses the border
0:12:38 > 0:12:41but whether you are in full compliance with the rules of the
0:12:41 > 0:12:45marketed as crossing into.So in your mind it doesn't go far enough
0:12:45 > 0:12:49to do with those issues. The joint report talks specifically about
0:12:49 > 0:12:54specific rules support North/ South cooperation, the protection of the
0:12:54 > 0:12:58Good Friday Agreement, the all Ireland economy. Is the Good Friday
0:12:58 > 0:13:02Agreement what actually counts under those headings?The question is also
0:13:02 > 0:13:06at what point that is going to be put into effect because effectively,
0:13:06 > 0:13:11that is an insurance policy option, ie in the absence of a great
0:13:11 > 0:13:14solutions, which most people would read as if there is no agreement,
0:13:14 > 0:13:17but if it gets to that point to understand what those areas of
0:13:17 > 0:13:22alignment would have to be, you have to spell them out and I think the
0:13:22 > 0:13:24EU's point and the Republic of Ireland thinks you need to do that
0:13:24 > 0:13:29sooner rather than later, to know what they actually are.When people
0:13:29 > 0:13:34talk about Turkey having a customs union with the EU, how would that be
0:13:34 > 0:13:39used as a model for the UK?I think this is along the lines of what the
0:13:39 > 0:13:43IoD were proposing, working with the government's ostensible redlines.
0:13:43 > 0:13:47The aim is to show you can be in a customs union with the EU and
0:13:47 > 0:13:50negotiate meaningful trade agreements so I think, for example,
0:13:50 > 0:13:54if you look at the US, there would be one constraint on the UK's
0:13:54 > 0:13:58ability to completely negotiate if it related to what the areas that
0:13:58 > 0:14:02you shared an external tariff on, so industrial goods, that would be
0:14:02 > 0:14:05absolutely essential to avoid introducing costly rules of origin
0:14:05 > 0:14:12to apply between the EU and the UK but it means you would have
0:14:12 > 0:14:15prevented to negotiate on.Van La Parra metres of the Prime Minister's
0:14:15 > 0:14:20like as to how speech and ongoing negotiations, what you think is the
0:14:20 > 0:14:25most likely option? -- within the parameters.I think it depends on
0:14:25 > 0:14:29what the UK puts forward. If you were looking at this through the
0:14:29 > 0:14:32prism of convention, a customs border everywhere else, even between
0:14:32 > 0:14:36Norway and Sweden, where it is pretty frictionless but there is
0:14:36 > 0:14:40physical infrastructure on that land border because they don't charge the
0:14:40 > 0:14:45same duties on goods coming in... I think it would be for the UK to put
0:14:45 > 0:14:49its ideas on the table and if the EU decides it is not sufficient and it
0:14:49 > 0:14:52should be coming up with counterproposals, I think the onus
0:14:52 > 0:14:56is on the UK to put forward its proposals but the EU can't be a
0:14:56 > 0:15:00silent player. It has to engage on what those proposals are.Allie
0:15:00 > 0:15:04Renison, thank you very much.
0:15:04 > 0:15:05We can speak now to Mairead McGuinness,
0:15:05 > 0:15:08Vice President of the European Parliament and Irish MEP
0:15:08 > 0:15:10for the Fine Gael party in Brussels and Sammy Wilson,
0:15:10 > 0:15:12an MP for the Democratic Unionist Party - who's
0:15:12 > 0:15:14here with me in the studio.
0:15:14 > 0:15:18Welcome to both of you. Do you expect tomorrow that the draft legal
0:15:18 > 0:15:23text will commit the UK to maintaining full alignment with EU
0:15:23 > 0:15:29regulations in the absence of other solutions?Yes, we do expect this
0:15:29 > 0:15:33text to be published tomorrow and I think that what we expect to see is
0:15:33 > 0:15:37a translation of the agreement pre-Christmas into legal text,
0:15:37 > 0:15:40including that fallback position. You've outlined in the programme the
0:15:40 > 0:15:44three options. Clearly the first option is the best, that we reach a
0:15:44 > 0:15:48situation where this isn't a problem. In the absence of that,
0:15:48 > 0:15:52tomorrow I would expect that in the legal text there is a recognition of
0:15:52 > 0:15:59that third option, that if we fail on both one and two that we have a
0:15:59 > 0:16:03fallback position which secures our concerns around the border on the
0:16:03 > 0:16:08island of Ireland which shares our concerns with the UK and in
0:16:08 > 0:16:10particular my constituents that I south of the border. Yes, tomorrow
0:16:10 > 0:16:14I'll be looking at this text very clearly and this morning I come from
0:16:14 > 0:16:20a meeting with the parliament's negotiator where they have clearly
0:16:20 > 0:16:27outlined the protocol on eyelid is key. In the future they can be no
0:16:27 > 0:16:30diversions in norms, regulations and standards between Northern Ireland
0:16:30 > 0:16:34and the Republic of Ireland. That is if you like the third option if all
0:16:34 > 0:16:38else fails. I think people should read it in that context rather than
0:16:38 > 0:16:43as some members of the committee reading it as almost a row
0:16:43 > 0:16:47immediately. We need to be very careful of how we interpret the text
0:16:47 > 0:16:51tomorrow.By full alignment, as you have just explained, it is yours and
0:16:51 > 0:16:56the EU's understanding that would be entirely adopting or replicating
0:16:56 > 0:17:03every single EU regulation.Anything that would avoid us having a
0:17:03 > 0:17:07semblance of a border, a hard border, any change to the
0:17:07 > 0:17:12relationships to what happens on the island of Ireland as the third and
0:17:12 > 0:17:16final, if you like, offer in terms of what should be done. But the
0:17:16 > 0:17:21first and second are also on the table and therefore from my
0:17:21 > 0:17:24perspective, and I spoke this morning in committee, I welcome a
0:17:24 > 0:17:29repeat of the commitment to the Irish issue. It was front and centre
0:17:29 > 0:17:33of the discussions before Christmas. It was one of the three priorities
0:17:33 > 0:17:37and indeed we wondered whether we would actually get to reaching
0:17:37 > 0:17:41sufficient progress. We got working with some difficulty and I know
0:17:41 > 0:17:45you've got a DUP colleague and I'm looking forward to his contribution.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48They have particular concerns which were taken on board and have to be
0:17:48 > 0:17:53dealt with by the UK within the UK. It beholds both sides of these
0:17:53 > 0:17:57negotiations this week to move forward in a positive framework.
0:17:57 > 0:18:01Sammy Wilson, if the legal agreement in the way Mairead has just
0:18:01 > 0:18:05outlined, does commit the UK to effectively remaining in the EU's
0:18:05 > 0:18:12institutions as a backdrop Dunn backstop, should the UK signed?
0:18:12 > 0:18:16First of all, there's a gap in what Mairead has outlined. The agreement
0:18:16 > 0:18:19didn't just talk about the relationship between Northern
0:18:19 > 0:18:24Ireland and the Irish Republic. The agreement, and it was signed by the
0:18:24 > 0:18:28EU, also talked about the unbreakable relationship between
0:18:28 > 0:18:31Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. We would expect to
0:18:31 > 0:18:37see that outlined in the legal agreement, as well. They cannot pick
0:18:37 > 0:18:41and choose and simply say where only interested in the Northern Ireland,
0:18:41 > 0:18:45Irish Republic relationship. They have signed up to ensuring there
0:18:45 > 0:18:48will be no change in the constitutional position of Northern
0:18:48 > 0:18:52Ireland. They've signed up to the Belfast agreement commitments, that
0:18:52 > 0:18:56bill be no change without the consent of the people of Northern
0:18:56 > 0:19:00Ireland, so therefore the legal agreement must also reflect that
0:19:00 > 0:19:05aspect of the December agreement.Do you accept that, Mairead?I think
0:19:05 > 0:19:10that that issue and this article, paragraph 50, I've spoken about
0:19:10 > 0:19:15paragraph 40 nine. Paragraph 50 was an internal discussion to meet the
0:19:15 > 0:19:19concerns of the DUP, who are of course supporting the Conservative
0:19:19 > 0:19:24government.Should it be part of this legal text?Al just finished my
0:19:24 > 0:19:29point if I may. As I see it, that is something the UK needs to bear in
0:19:29 > 0:19:32mind as to be able to deliver on. I would rather go back to this
0:19:32 > 0:19:36starting point here. We should in this New Year and with time running
0:19:36 > 0:19:42out focus on the best option, which is option one. I would remind both
0:19:42 > 0:19:48Sammy and your listeners, this morning they were saying we wanted a
0:19:48 > 0:19:52positive relationship with the UK. That's in the interest not just of
0:19:52 > 0:19:57politics but of people. And my country on both sides of the border.
0:19:57 > 0:20:03We are at this stage fighting before we see the text and that is...Is
0:20:03 > 0:20:11that what you're doing?I'm not... Don't forget, it was the EU who
0:20:11 > 0:20:16insisted that this had to be an agreement. The December agreement
0:20:16 > 0:20:19was an agreement that had to be signed up by all parties. They has
0:20:19 > 0:20:24to be happy with the text. We had to be happy with the text. The text
0:20:24 > 0:20:30includes paragraph 50. Paragraph 50 makes it very clear that there can
0:20:30 > 0:20:35be no separation of Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK. It is an
0:20:35 > 0:20:42act of bad faith... It's an act of bad faith is already the EU are
0:20:42 > 0:20:47saying, by the way, this agreement have 50 paragraphs but as far as the
0:20:47 > 0:20:5050th is concerned, nothing to do with us. They shouldn't have signed
0:20:50 > 0:20:56up to it if that were the case.Is it your position, though... Kangol,
0:20:56 > 0:21:01Mairead I'll come back to you. Is it your position that you want Northern
0:21:01 > 0:21:04Ireland to have a veto over the capacity of Great Britain to
0:21:04 > 0:21:10diverged?It's not. The UK as a whole voted to leave the EU. And the
0:21:10 > 0:21:16United Kingdom as a whole should leave the EU on the same basis.
0:21:16 > 0:21:21That's not an Northern Ireland veto. That is a UK decision. All we are
0:21:21 > 0:21:25asking is that the result of the referendum be respected. The result
0:21:25 > 0:21:30of the agreement in December be respected, and the EU and certainly
0:21:30 > 0:21:35the Irish can't have the best of both worlds, where they say, we have
0:21:35 > 0:21:39to have an agreement in December and by the way, when it comes to
0:21:39 > 0:21:43February, some of those we want to throw out the window.Isn't it true
0:21:43 > 0:21:46that this is at the door of view of the British government? The majority
0:21:46 > 0:21:50of people in Northern Ireland voted to remain, only your party advocated
0:21:50 > 0:21:57leaving. Why is it up to the Irish or the EU to come up with a
0:21:57 > 0:22:00solution? Why haven't you come up with a solution to not having a hard
0:22:00 > 0:22:06border?We have. All those solutions to date, the EU and the Irish have
0:22:06 > 0:22:11not even been prepared to look at in August of last year David Davis gave
0:22:11 > 0:22:15a very detailed paper as to how you can have a virtual border between
0:22:15 > 0:22:17Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic. The EU Parliament
0:22:17 > 0:22:23commissioned a report from the former director of the WTO, who also
0:22:23 > 0:22:27said it was possible to have a virtual border between Northern
0:22:27 > 0:22:31Ireland and the Irish Republic. None of those options are even being
0:22:31 > 0:22:40considered. By the Irish governorate or the argument all along has been
0:22:40 > 0:22:44until we talk about the future trade relationship, we cannot come up with
0:22:44 > 0:22:47solutions technical or otherwise. You saying the EU has already
0:22:47 > 0:22:51decided that a nonstarter and some of the solutions Sammy has spoken
0:22:51 > 0:22:56about in terms of virtual border? Can I just reissue at Sammy Wilson
0:22:56 > 0:23:00of one thing? I have no desire to see borders anywhere. The whole
0:23:00 > 0:23:04reason of my being in politics as being part of the EU is not to have
0:23:04 > 0:23:08borders between people or countries, but clearly now the UK is leaving,
0:23:08 > 0:23:12and I think you were right to reference the fact that, in Northern
0:23:12 > 0:23:16Ireland, the majority voted to remain and to some extent the DUP
0:23:16 > 0:23:21vetoed that decision, I accept that is the situation. We don't want
0:23:21 > 0:23:25borders, either. What we have are three possible solutions to a very
0:23:25 > 0:23:30serious problem that I'm sure Sammy Wilson shares my concerns about. We
0:23:30 > 0:23:33need to build relationships on the island of Ireland. They are
0:23:33 > 0:23:37difficult at the moment and I agree that any going backward, any
0:23:37 > 0:23:39dividing of people psychologically and physically, is not healthy for
0:23:39 > 0:23:45the island of Ireland and the peace process. Begin with a positive
0:23:45 > 0:23:50outlook with option one and see that in the text tomorrow, what we're
0:23:50 > 0:23:52looking at is, in the withdrawal agreement, if all else fails, we
0:23:52 > 0:23:56have to have a safeguard and I think that's in all our interests because
0:23:56 > 0:24:00we don't want to be in October of this year looking at something which
0:24:00 > 0:24:04is a disaster. Prepare well and therefore we would fail.But you
0:24:04 > 0:24:07haven't answered my question about the solution that has been put
0:24:07 > 0:24:12forward about a virtual border, a technical solution to keep the
0:24:12 > 0:24:15border as soft as possible. Do you accept that those suggestions should
0:24:15 > 0:24:21be looked into?
0:24:21 > 0:24:24be looked into?What I accept is, and I've looked at that report, been
0:24:24 > 0:24:28part of the discussion on them, what I am arguing for, it is impossible
0:24:28 > 0:24:32given the red lines of the UK, is that the situation today, which is
0:24:32 > 0:24:36the best option, should prevail. Staying in the single market and
0:24:36 > 0:24:40Customs union. Anything after that causes me anxiety and concern.
0:24:40 > 0:24:44That's why we have the fallback option. When you say, should we
0:24:44 > 0:24:50consider these other options? Our choice, our best consideration,
0:24:50 > 0:24:53should be given to have this strong relationship. Good trading
0:24:53 > 0:25:01partnership with the UK. Not to look at technical solutions because
0:25:01 > 0:25:05technical solutions do not get us over relationships and the political
0:25:05 > 0:25:10issues, which clearly still prevail when it comes to the island of
0:25:10 > 0:25:16Ireland but I think we should work together.That answer rests the nub
0:25:16 > 0:25:21of the problem. That the Irish insist and believe that we should
0:25:21 > 0:25:24stay within the single market and Customs union, even though the
0:25:24 > 0:25:29people of the UK voted to leave. The EU negotiators believe that, as
0:25:29 > 0:25:33well, and our worry is best. That the legal text which will be
0:25:33 > 0:25:39produced tomorrow or Thursday, from the leaks we have had so far, only
0:25:39 > 0:25:45looks in detail at one option which is the fallback option which would
0:25:45 > 0:25:49require full regulatory alignment. Because there is no interest in
0:25:49 > 0:25:53negotiating on the terms that the people of the UK have decided,
0:25:53 > 0:25:57namely that we leave the EU and we have a clean break with the EU. And
0:25:57 > 0:26:03if that's the case, the legal text will not only be unacceptable to the
0:26:03 > 0:26:05DUP, I suspect it will be unacceptable to the British
0:26:05 > 0:26:11government.Mairead, biweekly heading towards Brickman ship? The
0:26:11 > 0:26:17EU refuses to any technical solutions and a hard border goes up
0:26:17 > 0:26:23by default?As far as I'm concerned, as long as I'm in politics, a hard
0:26:23 > 0:26:27border will not go up on the island of Ireland. Let me say to Sammy
0:26:27 > 0:26:30Wilson and am trying to be conciliatory, I don't think we
0:26:30 > 0:26:35really should be fighting over this. Remember the farmers who voted to
0:26:35 > 0:26:39leave, the DUP supporters who voted to leave the EU. I accept their
0:26:39 > 0:26:45vote, not the logic of it. They want their lands to be processed in the
0:26:45 > 0:26:49south of Ireland and sold to France. They watched that to continue when
0:26:49 > 0:26:53the UK leads the EU. If we have this so-called managed divergences and in
0:26:53 > 0:26:58fact ambitious managed divergences have had from the UK side, how can
0:26:58 > 0:27:03that happen? Let's get real, let's get practical, let's get back to
0:27:03 > 0:27:06grassroots. Solve this problem in the interests of our people and
0:27:06 > 0:27:13perhaps move the big politics to one side.We're running out of time,
0:27:13 > 0:27:16Mairead .pl other bases of negotiation rather than
0:27:16 > 0:27:20confrontation. Sammy Wilson, given the risks to the economy of Ireland,
0:27:20 > 0:27:23because it would be devastating on the island if there isn't a deal
0:27:23 > 0:27:27that is done, is it your position that the Irish government are acting
0:27:27 > 0:27:32purely in political our faith?Not only political about-face, but there
0:27:32 > 0:27:37are acting in a way which must be incomprehensible to many of the
0:27:37 > 0:27:40people who operate businesses in the Irish Republic because this fixation
0:27:40 > 0:27:43with the border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic hides
0:27:43 > 0:27:51the main issue, and that is that the vast bulk of the Irish market is not
0:27:51 > 0:27:56in Northern Ireland. They sell six times more to the rest of the UK and
0:27:56 > 0:28:02therefore concentrating on the Northern Ireland Irish border and
0:28:02 > 0:28:06wanting regulatory alignment between those two parts of the island, are
0:28:06 > 0:28:09they really saying they're prepared to sacrifice the regulatory
0:28:09 > 0:28:14alignment which we require to enable them to sell their goods in Great
0:28:14 > 0:28:16Britain but you might because if they do I think that will be the
0:28:16 > 0:28:21real devastation for the businesses. Mairead, very briefly, Boris Johnson
0:28:21 > 0:28:24says it's as easy as dealing with the boundary between two London
0:28:24 > 0:28:27Boris. You could deal with it in the way we have a congestion charge in
0:28:27 > 0:28:33the capital. Do you agree?Well, first of all, can I just say, there
0:28:33 > 0:28:37is no bad faith on behalf of myself as an Irish politician or my
0:28:37 > 0:28:40government. I would reject that absolutely. When it comes to Boris
0:28:40 > 0:28:43Johnson's comments which I read and heard with interest, I think Sammy
0:28:43 > 0:28:47Wilson would be the first to say that the UK is a different country
0:28:47 > 0:28:52than the Republic of Ireland. We are talking about two sovereign, UK and
0:28:52 > 0:28:57the Republic of Ireland. The comparison doesn't quite fit.It
0:28:57 > 0:29:03does it, Mairead. If you look at it with a different tax regime, VAT,
0:29:03 > 0:29:06excise duty is different. Yet billions of pounds worth of goods
0:29:06 > 0:29:12across that border, tax is paid, is not a lorry is stopped to check the
0:29:12 > 0:29:17goods because through virtual methods, through IT, through
0:29:17 > 0:29:20electronic invoicing, those taxes are collected by both the Irish
0:29:20 > 0:29:23government and the British government. If it can work on that
0:29:23 > 0:29:27basis it can work after we leave the EU.We have to leave it there. Thank
0:29:27 > 0:29:32you both very much. Mairead, sorry, that's the end of the interview!
0:29:32 > 0:29:35Now, our guest of the day Marvin Rees was the first directly
0:29:35 > 0:29:39elected black Mayor in the UK and he's the subject of a new film,
0:29:39 > 0:29:41a biopic following his two election campaigns in Bristol.
0:29:41 > 0:29:43But, outside the city, the Mayor isn't particularly well known.
0:29:43 > 0:29:46Here at the Daily Politics we pride ourselves on delivering public
0:29:46 > 0:29:49service broadcasting at its finest - so in that tradition, Paul Barltrop,
0:29:49 > 0:29:52BBC West Political Editor has the lowdown on Marvin the man.
0:29:52 > 0:29:56May 2016 and Bristol have elected a new mayor.
0:29:56 > 0:30:00It was the start of a political career but the culmination
0:30:00 > 0:30:03of a long personal journey.
0:30:03 > 0:30:06His father was Jamaican-born, but Marvin Rees was brought up
0:30:06 > 0:30:07by his mother Janet.
0:30:07 > 0:30:10The pictures show an earnest, determined child.
0:30:10 > 0:30:12It was always Lego and Meccano and there was always a structure
0:30:12 > 0:30:15and a plan to everything.
0:30:15 > 0:30:18You couldn't just be sort of, you know, kids
0:30:18 > 0:30:21and just see what happened - Marvin would always want to make
0:30:21 > 0:30:26the model on the front of the box.
0:30:26 > 0:30:29His early years were spent here in a flat on the Long Cross
0:30:29 > 0:30:30estate in the north of the city.
0:30:30 > 0:30:33It wasn't easy - there was plenty of racism in 1970s Bristol.
0:30:33 > 0:30:36As a mixed-race child of a single mother, he had
0:30:36 > 0:30:38to look out for himself but, encouraged by her,
0:30:38 > 0:30:42he showed himself to be a striver whether at school or at sport.
0:30:42 > 0:30:46In his teens he joined a youth club and quickly made an impression.
0:30:46 > 0:30:49Straightaway, he was one of those that was polite,
0:30:49 > 0:30:53smiling and so on.
0:30:53 > 0:30:56And what was interesting, then he didn't come for a couple
0:30:56 > 0:30:58of evenings and his mum then turned up with him,
0:30:58 > 0:31:01catching hold of him by the ear and saying, "Marvin's coming
0:31:01 > 0:31:05to club every night."
0:31:05 > 0:31:07He especially took to boxing and ended up taking
0:31:07 > 0:31:08on a future world champion.
0:31:08 > 0:31:13Depending on how that fight went that night could have changed
0:31:13 > 0:31:14everything for Marvin.
0:31:14 > 0:31:17He wouldn't have been a mayor, he could well have been
0:31:17 > 0:31:18a world champion boxer!
0:31:18 > 0:31:21But as it happened, it went the three rounds,
0:31:21 > 0:31:24both stood there but Marvin took a few bangs and ended up having
0:31:24 > 0:31:25both his retinas detached!
0:31:25 > 0:31:27So that was Marvin's career.
0:31:27 > 0:31:30It started here as a young man and he trained well to do
0:31:30 > 0:31:31it, he became good.
0:31:31 > 0:31:33His defence should have been better that day and perhaps
0:31:33 > 0:31:36then he'd have been OK, but the reality is his boxing
0:31:36 > 0:31:37career ended here, too!
0:31:37 > 0:31:39After university, he worked in broadcasting and, as a reporter,
0:31:39 > 0:31:42often showed his desire to make the world a better place.
0:31:42 > 0:31:45Welcome to Stokes Croft here in Bristol - we're right
0:31:45 > 0:31:48in the heart of the city.
0:31:48 > 0:31:51Wanting to go further, he joined a scheme to
0:31:51 > 0:31:52encourage people from ethnic minorities into politics.
0:31:52 > 0:31:56I'm here because I'm interested in the way the country's run.
0:31:56 > 0:31:58Since I was young, I had big questions going around in my head -
0:31:58 > 0:32:01why are some people so rich while others are so poor?
0:32:01 > 0:32:03He was snapped up by Labour and, though a political novice,
0:32:03 > 0:32:06he soon caught the eye of council veterans.
0:32:06 > 0:32:09In a sense, not being around Labour was a good thing.
0:32:09 > 0:32:11He brought new ideas and he certainly wasn't
0:32:11 > 0:32:14defending the status quo.
0:32:14 > 0:32:16He wasn't New Labour, he wasn't sort of representing any
0:32:16 > 0:32:19sort of faction of the party, so I thought he was just
0:32:19 > 0:32:22a breath of fresh air, to be honest with you.
0:32:22 > 0:32:23Good morning, everybody.
0:32:23 > 0:32:25His path to power wasn't easy -
0:32:25 > 0:32:28he lost the first mayoral election.
0:32:28 > 0:32:30His second campaign was against a backdrop
0:32:30 > 0:32:33of Labour's internal strife.
0:32:33 > 0:32:37The day he won, Jeremy Corbyn rushed to Bristol to congratulate him.
0:32:37 > 0:32:39In the ensuing party leadership contest, the new mayor
0:32:39 > 0:32:42refused to take sides.
0:32:42 > 0:32:44Well, there was massive tensions and, behind the scenes,
0:32:44 > 0:32:48there was lots of conversations about, you know, what was
0:32:48 > 0:32:49the right thing to do?
0:32:49 > 0:32:52Was it to support the leader, was it not to?
0:32:52 > 0:32:55But ultimately there was a decision to be made and I think
0:32:55 > 0:32:56he made the right one!
0:32:56 > 0:32:59It's harder to avoid conflict in the chamber.
0:32:59 > 0:33:02Last week, one protester let off a flare as his Labour councillors
0:33:02 > 0:33:05voted through a budget cutting spending by millions.
0:33:05 > 0:33:13Seeing a way to change his city for the better isn't proving easy.
0:33:16 > 0:33:21As you saw at the end of the film, being mayor of Bristol has its tough
0:33:21 > 0:33:26times, too, with local funding issues a key issue. Joining us is
0:33:26 > 0:33:32Chloe Westley from the TaxPayers' Alliance. Marvin, protests, cutting
0:33:32 > 0:33:36spending in Bristol, but you could put up council tax by 6%. Why don't
0:33:36 > 0:33:41you?In our consultation on the budget we spoke to the city about 5%
0:33:41 > 0:33:46and having given our word on that that's what we stuck to but we have
0:33:46 > 0:33:49made the savings we've had to make but we have taken many of those
0:33:49 > 0:33:55in-house and I'll do my level best to protect front line services.The
0:33:55 > 0:33:59problem is, Chloe Westley, central Government funding has been cut to
0:33:59 > 0:34:04local government to the tune of 77 % according to the Local Government
0:34:04 > 0:34:08Association so how on earth can councils cope with providing
0:34:08 > 0:34:11front-line services?But had an impact but we have seen a trend over
0:34:11 > 0:34:15the last 20 years where council tax has gone up steadily above inflation
0:34:15 > 0:34:20and it has gone up in years where government funding has increased so
0:34:20 > 0:34:24it is nothing new, this increase in council tax. But I have a lot of
0:34:24 > 0:34:29sympathy with you, Marvin, and with councils, because in order to reduce
0:34:29 > 0:34:32the deficit and so spending the Government has not looked at
0:34:32 > 0:34:36reducing foreign aid of scrapping HS2 reducing unnecessary spending,
0:34:36 > 0:34:41it has cut local government funding, and that is an issue of priorities.
0:34:41 > 0:34:44What do you say?We have been incredibly inventive in the way we
0:34:44 > 0:34:49have made our cuts and in our internal processes but I think it is
0:34:49 > 0:34:55a false economy, austerity. If it impacts on our ability to invest in
0:34:55 > 0:34:58children's mental health, to keep families in their home, this is not
0:34:58 > 0:35:02a cost without cost. They will turn up somewhere else in the system,
0:35:02 > 0:35:08maybe not this year or next but in five years. Many of the things we do
0:35:08 > 0:35:10at local government level are about protecting costs to the public
0:35:10 > 0:35:15purse.And the conversations about councils helping with the cost of
0:35:15 > 0:35:19living, the people paying the council tax families that I meet all
0:35:19 > 0:35:23the time and represent. They are left out of the conversation so you
0:35:23 > 0:35:26have the local government spokesperson and the council leader
0:35:26 > 0:35:31saying, we have to put up council tax, we can't afford it, but
0:35:31 > 0:35:37families are under pressure to and there was a lack of recognition
0:35:37 > 0:35:42about the situation. There was a survey that said 95% of councils
0:35:42 > 0:35:48were going to put up council tax and they interviewed the people that did
0:35:48 > 0:35:50that survey and did not bring up the fact that councils were but families
0:35:50 > 0:35:54have to pay more.We have at that into account and that is why we
0:35:54 > 0:36:01didn't put it at 6% that we could. We are aware of the struggles of
0:36:01 > 0:36:05families face, particularly with this regressive tax. We've done
0:36:05 > 0:36:09incredible job of engaging. We have a budget simulator online that
0:36:09 > 0:36:13anyone in the city can have their own go at balancing our budget and
0:36:13 > 0:36:17we run citywide events where we bring people into the council house
0:36:17 > 0:36:21to make sure they are participating in the way we run the city. Local
0:36:21 > 0:36:24governments have been incredibly inventive but, actually, it is in
0:36:24 > 0:36:31some sense trying to make bricks without straw. We need investment.
0:36:31 > 0:36:34It is not just about local government. What we are talking
0:36:34 > 0:36:37about his leadership of place. So when we look at running Bristol it
0:36:37 > 0:36:41is not just about the City Council but about how we work with criminal
0:36:41 > 0:36:45Justice, the voluntary sector, business, health services.Why did
0:36:45 > 0:36:48you try and cut the council tax reduction scheme for the poorest
0:36:48 > 0:36:53households in Bristol?Is one of the options we had to look at. One of
0:36:53 > 0:36:56the most important things we can do in the city is protect our most
0:36:56 > 0:37:00vulnerable citizens.You wanted to cut the council tax reduction
0:37:00 > 0:37:04scheme.Wanted is a loaded word. We looked at the range of options
0:37:04 > 0:37:09available to us to make sure we came home with a balance.But you you
0:37:09 > 0:37:16turned at the end and didn't go through with it.That kind of
0:37:16 > 0:37:18language doesn't help dynamic and engaging politics.If you are
0:37:18 > 0:37:21sending a message about what you are trying to do the people of Bristol
0:37:21 > 0:37:23and the most vulnerable, dude didn't follow through with the decision
0:37:23 > 0:37:28that you would come to.We found other means of doing so did we saved
0:37:28 > 0:37:31£800,000 a year on senior staffing costs. I would challenge a little
0:37:31 > 0:37:37bit on this challenge of U-turns and so forth. We looked at a whole range
0:37:37 > 0:37:41of things we could do to make sure that we managed our money
0:37:41 > 0:37:44responsibly. When we have a conversation with the city and put
0:37:44 > 0:37:48on our options, that was one we didn't have to pursue.Is that
0:37:48 > 0:37:51really a decision that should be made, whether or not to cut funding
0:37:51 > 0:37:56to the locust -- poorest people in the local constituency, all because
0:37:56 > 0:38:04central government won't fund local government properly?Let's not
0:38:04 > 0:38:11pretend they are immune from spending cuts. There is a Vicky Boss
0:38:11 > 0:38:16is. There are 500 council bosses in the country earning more than the
0:38:16 > 0:38:18Prime Minister. I think that would be a good place to start for less
0:38:18 > 0:38:22spending and I think in Bristol you have an office in Brussels. I would
0:38:22 > 0:38:27say that can probably go when we leave the EU.That was a
0:38:27 > 0:38:29recommendation by the Conservative group last week. At this time when
0:38:29 > 0:38:33we are parting from the EU it is absolutely essential that we are on
0:38:33 > 0:38:45the world stage promoting our businesses and the investable
0:38:47 > 0:38:49opportunities in our cities. If we stepped off the international stage
0:38:49 > 0:38:52at this time when our government and country need all the help to remain
0:38:52 > 0:38:55visible, that would be a backward step.What did you make of your
0:38:55 > 0:38:57colleague Labour MP Chris Williamson proposing a progressive council tax
0:38:57 > 0:39:00plan to hike bills for the better off and freeze them for the poorest?
0:39:00 > 0:39:02He made a speech in Bristol, too. Before anyone makes grand statements
0:39:02 > 0:39:05about the local level they need to leader for local level and one of
0:39:05 > 0:39:08the weaknesses of British politics at the moment is that it doesn't
0:39:08 > 0:39:15have the voice of local leaders in as high regard as it should. Brexit
0:39:15 > 0:39:17Westminster Brexit. The national debate is so much about Westminster
0:39:17 > 0:39:21when actually real things are being done at the core city level.Was
0:39:21 > 0:39:26that a mistake, to make that suggestion?It wasn't something I
0:39:26 > 0:39:30supportedAny other councils you think would take that suggestion?I
0:39:30 > 0:39:34didn't hear a choir of support for it. We are making sure we are
0:39:34 > 0:39:37financially responsible, delivering for our population, taking cuts in
0:39:37 > 0:39:41house, but what we need is Government to start investing in
0:39:41 > 0:39:45local government itRe-evaluation of council tax bands, a good idea?
0:39:45 > 0:39:49Potentially but on the point about local power, there is an opportunity
0:39:49 > 0:39:53here you my to change the change the way the government is funded because
0:39:53 > 0:39:56a lot of it is hand-outs from the Government and council tax but if
0:39:56 > 0:40:00you have more tax-raising powers at a local level and about how you can
0:40:00 > 0:40:04run services - a lot of it is mandated by central government - I
0:40:04 > 0:40:06think that would be a good thing because you would be in charge of
0:40:06 > 0:40:09more and people could vote based on changes you are making and not on
0:40:09 > 0:40:15what central government is telling you to do.Chloe Westley, thank you.
0:40:15 > 0:40:17For more than 70 years, mortgage interest support has been
0:40:17 > 0:40:19available to homeowners, usually those claiming other
0:40:19 > 0:40:20benefits, who are struggling to meet repayments.
0:40:20 > 0:40:23From April, it will be replaced by a new "second mortgage" scheme
0:40:23 > 0:40:25where the Government loans people the money -
0:40:25 > 0:40:28they pay it back later when the house is sold.
0:40:28 > 0:40:29Critics say it'll force people further into debt,
0:40:29 > 0:40:31as Phil McCann explains.
0:40:31 > 0:40:34Go on, we're going to keep swinging, Lucas!
0:40:34 > 0:40:36This is daily life for Susanne.
0:40:36 > 0:40:39Her son Lucas has autism, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder,
0:40:39 > 0:40:42and nervous problems causing hearing loss.
0:40:42 > 0:40:47She's a single mum and a full-time carer for Lucas and his brother.
0:40:47 > 0:40:48He's full-on.
0:40:48 > 0:40:49He's 24/7.
0:40:49 > 0:40:52We've only just got the toilet training under control.
0:40:52 > 0:40:54He doesn't sleep.
0:40:54 > 0:40:56He doesn't get the world.
0:40:56 > 0:40:58So what's your world like at the moment?
0:40:58 > 0:40:59Difficult.
0:40:59 > 0:41:00You can't switch off.
0:41:00 > 0:41:03You have to be one step ahead of him all the time.
0:41:03 > 0:41:04Not only just to...
0:41:04 > 0:41:07To...
0:41:07 > 0:41:09You know, it's all about keeping him safe.
0:41:09 > 0:41:13Susanne is one of 124,000 people who get the benefit called Support
0:41:13 > 0:41:17for Mortgage Interest.
0:41:17 > 0:41:19At the moment, Susanne's mortgage interest support payments cover
0:41:19 > 0:41:22around a third of the monthly cost of her mortgage.
0:41:22 > 0:41:25But soon the payments won't come in the form of a benefit -
0:41:25 > 0:41:28they'll be a loan which will have to be paid back whenever
0:41:28 > 0:41:30the house is sold.
0:41:30 > 0:41:31I'm gutted.
0:41:31 > 0:41:33I feel like I've been kicked in the teeth.
0:41:33 > 0:41:36You know, they're draining me dry and I feel very...
0:41:36 > 0:41:39It's made me feel very, very vulnerable.
0:41:39 > 0:41:42The government is writing to everyone who gets the benefit now.
0:41:42 > 0:41:45It means pressure's growing before the change comes in in April.
0:41:45 > 0:41:49They should pause this, they should review this and I think
0:41:49 > 0:41:54for the amount of money that they're saving in the grand scheme
0:41:54 > 0:41:58of things, again, we should go back to a system which provides a grant
0:41:58 > 0:42:02rather than a loan on top of a loan.
0:42:02 > 0:42:04And for the homeowners affected by this change,
0:42:04 > 0:42:06they'll end up paying more than they borrow - because the loan
0:42:06 > 0:42:09itself will have interest.
0:42:09 > 0:42:12The interest is very low in comparison to other loans,
0:42:12 > 0:42:17but nevertheless it is still a loan secured against your house.
0:42:17 > 0:42:19So if you own your own property, or a mortgage property,
0:42:19 > 0:42:23then this is really like having a second mortgage.
0:42:23 > 0:42:27The benefit costs the government £170 million a year at the moment.
0:42:27 > 0:42:30Ministers say it's reasonable the financial help should be paid
0:42:30 > 0:42:33back, but the loan will be written off if the sale doesn't
0:42:33 > 0:42:36raise enough to do that.
0:42:36 > 0:42:38The only change will be when the property is sold,
0:42:38 > 0:42:41if there's sufficient equity in the property that the taxpayer
0:42:41 > 0:42:44gets to recover some of that support that's been given,
0:42:44 > 0:42:46sometimes for very, very long periods.
0:42:46 > 0:42:49But we fundamentally want to maintain people in their homes,
0:42:49 > 0:42:52so they should have no fear.
0:42:52 > 0:42:54So, Susanne isn't worried about immediate money problems,
0:42:54 > 0:42:58but from April she and 124,000 others will have less to pass
0:42:58 > 0:43:05on to their children.
0:43:05 > 0:43:07I'm joined now by Helen Morrissey, a personal finance specialist
0:43:07 > 0:43:13at Royal London, and Kit Malthouse, the Work and Pensions minister.
0:43:13 > 0:43:16Welcome to both of you. Canon, you can see why the Government might
0:43:16 > 0:43:19want to scrap this benefit because it seems an anomaly that the
0:43:19 > 0:43:23taxpayer is helping to pay the mortgages of 124,000 people when
0:43:23 > 0:43:27billions can't even afford to get on the housing ladder.The issue that
0:43:27 > 0:43:32we have is how these changes are being conveyed to people. We put in
0:43:32 > 0:43:34a request to the DWP for some figures on this in January and
0:43:34 > 0:43:40bearing in mind, this is a massive change coming in April, by the end
0:43:40 > 0:43:44of January out of 125,000 recipients, less than 7000 had
0:43:44 > 0:43:48chosen the loan option. That worries me because I'm wondering what
0:43:48 > 0:43:53happened to the other 100,000 people who have S M I and have not made a
0:43:53 > 0:43:56decision and that is where I think the Government needs to look at
0:43:56 > 0:44:00delaying the roll-out of this to give people time and support to make
0:44:00 > 0:44:04the right decision.It is not very much time to make quite a dramatic
0:44:04 > 0:44:09change if the figures are as Helen says, less than fewer than 7000 have
0:44:09 > 0:44:13signed up to this loan, what are you going to do about the others?We're
0:44:13 > 0:44:16been communicating since July so we have about 110,000 people on the as
0:44:16 > 0:44:23of this morning. We have sent about 440,000 bits of paper, there have
0:44:23 > 0:44:28been 38,000 phone calls, of which 275,000 have been successful so the
0:44:28 > 0:44:31vast majority of people are in conversation with the department
0:44:31 > 0:44:36about whether they are going to make a decision or not. We will be
0:44:36 > 0:44:38pushing that right through to the end of April and we have room for a
0:44:38 > 0:44:42bit of flexibility at the time but we think the vast majority of
0:44:42 > 0:44:44people, 90 percentage of people, will make a decision in time and
0:44:44 > 0:44:49that is the pattern we are seeing and we are throwing at it. Whoa are
0:44:49 > 0:44:53you reassured by that?I am not really. You might have been making a
0:44:53 > 0:44:55decision in time but whether it is a decision they have been rushed
0:44:55 > 0:44:59into... I have been looking at a lot of forums for charities like Scope
0:44:59 > 0:45:04that deal with disabled people, a lot of them say they don't
0:45:04 > 0:45:07understand it, and they have been posted a couple of days ago. They've
0:45:07 > 0:45:11think they might have to sell their homes.Can you guarantee not a
0:45:11 > 0:45:14single family will be made homeless by this?The whole Berbers of the
0:45:14 > 0:45:17scheme is to maintain people in their homes so from a cosmetic point
0:45:17 > 0:45:21of view, nobody would see any change. The payments would continue
0:45:21 > 0:45:25and am direct to the mortgage company, the bank, so nobody need to
0:45:25 > 0:45:32see any at all. The only changes that whoa at the end when the house
0:45:32 > 0:45:35is sold, if you make a profit, we are asking that some of the
0:45:35 > 0:45:40supporters repaid itGiven the scheme costs £170 million, housing
0:45:40 > 0:45:45benefit costs £25 billion, isn't this an expensive way of making a
0:45:45 > 0:45:54point?It's £150 million will have invested other services. Government
0:45:54 > 0:45:58is about making these decisions. SMI was set up in 1948 and was designed
0:45:58 > 0:46:02as a temporary scheme to maintain people in their houses. We're now
0:46:02 > 0:46:07getting to a position where people are taking mortgages into
0:46:07 > 0:46:11retirement, which was never heard of before. They were in receipt of this
0:46:11 > 0:46:15were 20 or 30 years. All were asking is in a housing market where prices
0:46:15 > 0:46:18are rising rapidly, if you make a profit, that the taxpayer recoups
0:46:18 > 0:46:24some of that.I understand your reservations because the timing and
0:46:24 > 0:46:26people haven't understood what they would like to do, are not all of
0:46:26 > 0:46:30them, but the principle at the heart of it, do you accept that, that this
0:46:30 > 0:46:33shouldn't necessarily be an asset that is passed on to your children
0:46:33 > 0:46:36if you've been receiving benefit all the way through?We're not calling
0:46:36 > 0:46:42for this change to not happen. The issue is how it is being
0:46:42 > 0:46:48communicated.Will you delay it was to mark your going to go ahead.
0:46:48 > 0:46:56275,000 successful calls and my message to people is to be
0:46:56 > 0:46:59reassured. The idea of the scheme is to maintain them in their homes and
0:46:59 > 0:47:02if they wish, they can continue with the payments. The other thing to
0:47:02 > 0:47:07remember is it's not a one-off decision. You can get three, four,
0:47:07 > 0:47:11five, six, two years in and decide you don't want alone any more. We
0:47:11 > 0:47:14can repay early, leave it at a certain level and wait until the
0:47:14 > 0:47:17house is sold. It's not an irreversible decision.What do you
0:47:17 > 0:47:26think, Marvin?If I look at the housing crisis we have in my city,
0:47:26 > 0:47:2911,500 people on the waiting list, Private rent is out of control,
0:47:29 > 0:47:32private tenancies breaking down, resulting in homelessness. If I
0:47:32 > 0:47:34wanted something to come from government to help the macro
0:47:34 > 0:47:39intervene in the market, make sure we have stable families in settled
0:47:39 > 0:47:41communities that are self maintained with good social capital, this would
0:47:41 > 0:47:46not be at. I wish there was more of a conversation between Westminster
0:47:46 > 0:47:49and the leaders of cities where real people live to talk about what we
0:47:49 > 0:47:53actually need to enable us to create these kind of spaces that are good
0:47:53 > 0:47:58for the UK.This is part of a wider package of welfare reform. I've just
0:47:58 > 0:48:02come from a meeting with the Secretary of State of the DWP to
0:48:02 > 0:48:05talk about that, what more we can do to work together with the Ministry
0:48:05 > 0:48:12of Housing to try to improve.And not just talking to Westminster...
0:48:12 > 0:48:16Talking to you on a regular basis and I know they are holding Round
0:48:16 > 0:48:18Tables all the time.We have to leave it there but thank you very
0:48:18 > 0:48:20much.
0:48:20 > 0:48:22Now, our guest of the day Marvin Rees is one of
0:48:22 > 0:48:24a new generation of Labour politicians elected under
0:48:24 > 0:48:25the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn.
0:48:25 > 0:48:28Many Labour members and activists see this period as one of renewal,
0:48:28 > 0:48:31optimism and excitement for the party.
0:48:31 > 0:48:32But our next guest is somewhat more pessimistic.
0:48:32 > 0:48:35The former Labour MP Tom Harris has written a new book called
0:48:35 > 0:48:37Ten Years In The Death Of The Labour Party.
0:48:37 > 0:48:39It's out on Thursday.
0:48:39 > 0:48:42So, what is the state of the Labour Party and has it
0:48:42 > 0:48:43changed unrecognisably since Corbyn's election?
0:48:43 > 0:48:51He joins us now from Glasgow.
0:48:51 > 0:48:57Tom, welcome to the programme. Your book has this dramatic title, but
0:48:57 > 0:49:02even your conclusion is that the party hasn't gone full dodo yet, it
0:49:02 > 0:49:08hasn't died. It's a long way from extinction, isn't it?The title is
0:49:08 > 0:49:14taken from an earlier book by my colleague who wrote a book called
0:49:14 > 0:49:18four years of the death of the Labour Party. After that, the party
0:49:18 > 0:49:22did recover. Maybe the Labour Party will turn back to it traditional
0:49:22 > 0:49:30form after Jeremy Corbyn exits the stage. I am as you say pessimistic.
0:49:30 > 0:49:34Even Corbin fans can look at the title of the book and read it and
0:49:34 > 0:49:38interpreted as they like. They could say that that ten years that I
0:49:38 > 0:49:43referred to in the title covers the period from 2007 when Gordon Brown
0:49:43 > 0:49:47made the catastrophic decision not to hold an early general election
0:49:47 > 0:49:54and then ten years later during the June general election of 2017, when
0:49:54 > 0:49:57the party arguably rose from its deathbed and started to recover. I
0:49:57 > 0:50:02am more pessimistic. I see the current Labour Party, Corbyn's
0:50:02 > 0:50:09Labour Party, as soap different from the party of Clement Attlee and Tony
0:50:09 > 0:50:14Blair. It doesn't resemble any more. What we see now is the equivalent of
0:50:14 > 0:50:20the pod people in Invasion of the Body Snatchers of their relationship
0:50:20 > 0:50:25with their victims. There really isn't much in common.How did you
0:50:25 > 0:50:30vote in the general election?That's between me and the ballot box.You
0:50:30 > 0:50:33will see if you voted for the Labour Party of which were still a member,
0:50:33 > 0:50:39but you won't say which way you voted. You talk about Jeremy Corbyn
0:50:39 > 0:50:45being so different to the party of Attlee but you must agree that the
0:50:45 > 0:50:49party performed better than expectations and the last general
0:50:49 > 0:50:54election.But what party performed that well? The party I've been a
0:50:54 > 0:50:58member of the 34 years is not a party for example that would ever
0:50:58 > 0:51:05have provided a safe haven for inti Semites -- anti-Semites. The party I
0:51:05 > 0:51:09belong to would never use bullying as a way to get its way. The most
0:51:09 > 0:51:12important thing is policy and this is something a lot of the coverage
0:51:12 > 0:51:16of the general election has not covered. The manifesto that Corbyn
0:51:16 > 0:51:22issued in 2017 was largely regarded as fairly moderate, something
0:51:22 > 0:51:26Miliband could have put his name to. Actually the most radical and most
0:51:26 > 0:51:30extreme policy that Labour put forward wasn't even in the
0:51:30 > 0:51:32manifesto. Jeremy Corbyn said during the general election that if he
0:51:32 > 0:51:37became Prime Minister he would institute a review of policy on
0:51:37 > 0:51:41Trident. There's no doubt how that review would have concluded and we
0:51:41 > 0:51:45would have ended up disarming Trident without a political vote of
0:51:45 > 0:51:50the people.Lets me get Marvin's response. What do you say to Tom
0:51:50 > 0:51:52Harris? You've been ambiguous about support for Jeremy Corbyn. Are you
0:51:52 > 0:51:59fully signed up to the Corbyn agenda now?I support Jeremy as leader of
0:51:59 > 0:52:02the party, but when I joined, I joined politics quite late, as you
0:52:02 > 0:52:06saw in the film earlier on. What I didn't do was come in and say, which
0:52:06 > 0:52:11gang will I join? I found a group of people I felt were committed to
0:52:11 > 0:52:14tackling inequality, delivering an increasing economy, doing social
0:52:14 > 0:52:17justice, and I joined up. That's what I want and I want to carve out
0:52:17 > 0:52:21my own space. I'm not looking to recast myself in the mould of anyone
0:52:21 > 0:52:25in the party. It's about bringing together a range of people from
0:52:25 > 0:52:30different brands who can coalesce around a shared number of
0:52:30 > 0:52:34priorities.Do you see Tom as being from a different tribe or faction?I
0:52:34 > 0:52:37don't know him so I wouldn't say that. If you are committed to
0:52:37 > 0:52:43economic equality, political empowerment, then we can work
0:52:43 > 0:52:46together. But clearly there's a distinction because I don't think
0:52:46 > 0:52:52all parties are on the same page with us.What's the for you
0:52:52 > 0:52:57successful Labour leader?To be able to hold a range of people together
0:52:57 > 0:52:59across the spectrum. That essential. Steering Jeremy Corbyn is doing
0:52:59 > 0:53:06that?It's partly his job and people are in the party and he's doing that
0:53:06 > 0:53:11but it's up to people to stay in the game, stay in the match. Martin
0:53:11 > 0:53:18Luther King talk about creative tensions. You have those differences
0:53:18 > 0:53:22of views and comes your positions. Why hasn't Labour won a nationwide
0:53:22 > 0:53:30election since 2005?I joined in 2006, so... I'm late to that. I
0:53:30 > 0:53:35guess people across the country just chose not to vote and have not found
0:53:35 > 0:53:38the party attractive. At a local level we've done incredibly well.
0:53:38 > 0:53:43All core tent cities until last summer were Labour run and that
0:53:43 > 0:53:46again is something that happens distribute portion at amount of
0:53:46 > 0:53:48attention on Westminster and not enough attention on the fact that
0:53:48 > 0:53:52Labour is actually in power in the major cities across the UK.All
0:53:52 > 0:53:58right. Tom Harris, thank you for joining us.
0:53:58 > 0:53:59Now, Liam Fox is speaking
0:53:59 > 0:54:01in an address focusing on the benefits of life
0:54:01 > 0:54:02outside a customs union.
0:54:02 > 0:54:04The International Trade Secretary tore into Labour's plans
0:54:04 > 0:54:07for a customs union with the EU after Brexit and highlighted
0:54:07 > 0:54:09the opportunities for global trade outside the EU.
0:54:09 > 0:54:11Let's have a look at what he had to say.
0:54:11 > 0:54:14We cannot let the practices and the patterns of the past
0:54:14 > 0:54:17constrain the opportunities of the future.
0:54:17 > 0:54:20We require an economic outlook that allows us to take advantage
0:54:20 > 0:54:25of the substantial opportunities that Europe will continue to bring,
0:54:25 > 0:54:28but without limiting our ability to adapt to a changing and growing
0:54:28 > 0:54:33world beyond the European continent.
0:54:33 > 0:54:35The UK is perfectly placed to partner with the economic
0:54:35 > 0:54:39powerhouses of the future and they in turn are eager
0:54:39 > 0:54:44for the mutual prosperity that such a partnership would bring.
0:54:44 > 0:54:46To do this, we need the ability to exercise a fully
0:54:46 > 0:54:52independent trade policy.
0:54:52 > 0:54:55We have to maximise our overall trading opportunities from the UK
0:54:55 > 0:55:01to secure the prosperity of our people.
0:55:01 > 0:55:04Joining us now is the Conservative MP and Leave supporter Nigel Evans.
0:55:04 > 0:55:05He's also a member of the International
0:55:05 > 0:55:10Trade Select Committee.
0:55:10 > 0:55:16Rather helpfully! Nigel, despite what Liam Fox has just said, his
0:55:16 > 0:55:18former permanent secretary as you will know has argued that leaving
0:55:18 > 0:55:22the single market and because and union is like rejecting a three
0:55:22 > 0:55:25course meal now in favour of a promise of a packet of crisps later.
0:55:25 > 0:55:30How can you make up for such loss of trade?So negative. I heard what he
0:55:30 > 0:55:36had to say.It's true!I don't believe so. They IMF said 90% of the
0:55:36 > 0:55:40growth over the next ten to 15 years will happen outside the EU.44% of
0:55:40 > 0:55:47our export with the EU. It is an important market to put atrisk. It
0:55:47 > 0:55:50is but we won't turn our backs on the EU. We still wants to do deals
0:55:50 > 0:55:54Liam Fox has been to visit 150 countries throughout the world with
0:55:54 > 0:55:58his colleagues. I was in the USA just three weeks ago talking to some
0:55:58 > 0:56:04of their congressmen. Really keen to do a trade deal with the UK. I sat
0:56:04 > 0:56:07with the trade representative of New Zealand last week. They want to do a
0:56:07 > 0:56:10trade deal with us. I think the potential is absolutely brilliant
0:56:10 > 0:56:15but if people are like his former civil servant, who were saying how
0:56:15 > 0:56:19bleak it was all going to be but yet last year our exports went up 11%.
0:56:19 > 0:56:25We have more venture capital coming into London...But we haven't left
0:56:25 > 0:56:31the EU! But we are still part of the EU, we haven't left. There is now
0:56:31 > 0:56:36more pressure, Jeremy Corbyn has cemented Labour's position to remain
0:56:36 > 0:56:41part of the union... Customs union. The EU 27 have so much more weight
0:56:41 > 0:56:45when it comes to negotiating trade deals than the UK on its own. It
0:56:45 > 0:56:50will be much harder to do, take longer and be more difficult to make
0:56:50 > 0:56:57trade dipped -- make trade dispute. It easier than when you are somebody
0:56:57 > 0:57:02requisite in 28 countries.A bit more have to.Canada took eight
0:57:02 > 0:57:08years, that's still not come into play. As far as Jeremy Corbyn is
0:57:08 > 0:57:13concerned, his Orwellian doublespeak has to be the greatest mis-selling
0:57:13 > 0:57:17since PPI.Help concerned are you that you're pro-EU colleagues are
0:57:17 > 0:57:21going to walk through the lobby with Jeremy Corbyn on that amendment to
0:57:21 > 0:57:25stay in a customs union?I think that would be thwarting the wishes
0:57:25 > 0:57:30of the British people. Not so many months ago, the manifesto said we
0:57:30 > 0:57:34were leaving the EU. You can't stay in a customs union website you are
0:57:34 > 0:57:38chained to the EU to do all your trade deals with you. Part of reason
0:57:38 > 0:57:43people want to leave it so that we can do trade deals with the rest the
0:57:43 > 0:57:46world and the fastest growing economies outside the EU.That's the
0:57:46 > 0:57:50point. People voted to leave the EU. We will still be half in and half
0:57:50 > 0:57:54out every part of the customs union. They did but I find the leadership
0:57:54 > 0:57:59of government on this incredibly disappointed. I was in Brussels last
0:57:59 > 0:58:05week. I got to meet the two key characters before we'd had chance to
0:58:05 > 0:58:08sit around the table with our own government. There's been no
0:58:08 > 0:58:11proactive engagement with the ten biggest cities outside London
0:58:11 > 0:58:15talking about what we need. If you'd seen us you wouldn't be getting a
0:58:15 > 0:58:19Bristol City Council perspective, you'd be speaking to our chamber of
0:58:19 > 0:58:21commerce, our universities, all those places that are saying they
0:58:21 > 0:58:26need government to be listening to what goes on outside Westminster.In
0:58:26 > 0:58:30literally a few seconds, how much is Theresa May under pressure to give
0:58:30 > 0:58:34way?She won't give way. To leave the EU we need to leave the customs
0:58:34 > 0:58:37union.The answer to our quiz...
0:58:37 > 0:58:38The question was...
0:58:38 > 0:58:40Post-Brexit, one of Winston Churchill's favourite
0:58:40 > 0:58:42tipples is going to be sold in pint-sized bottles -
0:58:42 > 0:58:44a size that Churchill considered to be just perfect.
0:58:44 > 0:58:47But which drink is it?
0:58:47 > 0:58:55I'll take that one!It is champagne, we gave you the answer! That's all
0:58:55 > 0:58:55we've
0:58:55 > 0:58:59we've got time for today. Goodbye.