0:00:40 > 0:00:42Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44Has Theresa May achieved the impossible and managed
0:00:44 > 0:00:47to unite her party on Brexit?
0:00:47 > 0:00:49Her latest speech seems to have landed reasonably well,
0:00:49 > 0:00:51at least on the domestic front.
0:00:51 > 0:00:53But will the EU buy into what she calls her "ambitious
0:00:53 > 0:00:59and practical" vision for the future relationship?
0:00:59 > 0:01:02Donald Trump says he will impose big tariffs on imports of steel
0:01:02 > 0:01:04and aluminium to the US.
0:01:04 > 0:01:06Theresa May expresses her "deep concern" -
0:01:06 > 0:01:08but what does it mean for the special relationship once
0:01:08 > 0:01:12we leave the EU?
0:01:12 > 0:01:14On the domestic front, the Prime Minister returns
0:01:14 > 0:01:16to her promise to "fix the broken housing market" with fresh action
0:01:16 > 0:01:18to boost house building.
0:01:18 > 0:01:19Will it work?
0:01:19 > 0:01:22We'll speak to the new housing minister.
0:01:22 > 0:01:25A populist surge in the Italian elections leaves
0:01:25 > 0:01:27the traditional parties reeling.
0:01:27 > 0:01:29We'll look at the rise of anti-establishment
0:01:29 > 0:01:36politics across Europe.
0:01:39 > 0:01:43All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole
0:01:43 > 0:01:43of the programme today, two of Westminster's
0:01:43 > 0:01:47brightest young things - well, youngish, at least -
0:01:47 > 0:01:49Labour MP Mary Creagh and Conservative MP Alex Burghart.
0:01:49 > 0:01:55Welcome to you both.
0:01:55 > 0:01:56First today...
0:01:56 > 0:01:58Dismay about the prospect of a new trade war is brewing,
0:01:58 > 0:02:01after President Trump announced plans to impose new tariffs
0:02:01 > 0:02:05of 25% on steel imports and 10% on aluminium.
0:02:05 > 0:02:08He said those industries in America had been "decimated" by decades
0:02:08 > 0:02:12of unfair trade policy - and that America couldn't
0:02:12 > 0:02:16let its workers and companies be exploited any longer.
0:02:16 > 0:02:19The move was greeted by threats of retaliation and widespread
0:02:19 > 0:02:22criticism from leaders around the world - but that seems to have
0:02:22 > 0:02:25fallen on deaf ears.
0:02:25 > 0:02:28Over the weekend, President Trump doubled down on his remarks,
0:02:28 > 0:02:32saying that the American steel industry was in bad shape -
0:02:32 > 0:02:35and that if you don't have steel, you don't have a country.
0:02:35 > 0:02:38Yesterday, Theresa May spoke to the President by phone
0:02:38 > 0:02:42and expressed her "deep concern" at the proposed new tariffs -
0:02:42 > 0:02:46echoing fears it could spark a new trade war.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49But the advice seems to have gone unheeded -
0:02:49 > 0:02:52President Trump tweeting hours later that America was on the losing side
0:02:52 > 0:02:56of almost all trade deals, had been taken advantage
0:02:56 > 0:03:01of for years, and that it was time for a change.
0:03:01 > 0:03:03Well, yesterday, Cabinet Office Minister David Lidington
0:03:03 > 0:03:05was on the Sunday Politics, where he outlined the
0:03:05 > 0:03:07Government's concern.
0:03:07 > 0:03:09The United States is...
0:03:09 > 0:03:12Is not taking an advisable course in threatening a trade war.
0:03:12 > 0:03:15Trade wars don't do anybody any good.
0:03:15 > 0:03:18We tried in Britain, in the '60s and '70s, protecting our car
0:03:18 > 0:03:20industry from competition.
0:03:20 > 0:03:22That actually didn't work.
0:03:22 > 0:03:24It protected inefficiencies.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27We lost all our export markets, because our competitors,
0:03:27 > 0:03:30who were more competitive, went out and gobbled those up
0:03:30 > 0:03:33from us, and the car industry had to go through a very,
0:03:33 > 0:03:38very painful restructuring to get to the success story it is now.
0:03:38 > 0:03:44David Lidington there.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47The problem is, Donald Trump isn't changing his course of action. In
0:03:47 > 0:03:52fact it seems to have hardened. Trump's top trade adviser said there
0:03:52 > 0:03:56would be no exceptions made in the tariff hike. So what does the UK
0:03:56 > 0:04:02Government to do?How shall I put this? The president has a unique way
0:04:02 > 0:04:09with language and it is not always the case that what he says at first
0:04:09 > 0:04:13actually plays out as it is reported so I am a little hesitant to make
0:04:13 > 0:04:16the assumption that this is definitely going to happen later
0:04:16 > 0:04:20this week but if it does, I think it will be quite damaging for the world
0:04:20 > 0:04:25economy and I'm sure that the President is trying to protect his
0:04:25 > 0:04:29base, steel manufacturers in the US, but I think what he will see as a
0:04:29 > 0:04:32result is that the cost of living goes up as trade barriers are put up
0:04:32 > 0:04:36by other countries. As David Lidington said, we strongly advise
0:04:36 > 0:04:41the US to would going down this route.It has fallen on deaf ears.
0:04:41 > 0:04:44Is your policy one of fingers crossed, he just won't carry through
0:04:44 > 0:04:49what he is threatening to do?As you have already said, we are in
0:04:49 > 0:04:52dialogue with the American presidency. It is not just a
0:04:52 > 0:04:57question of one phone call and then it is done. We are in the process of
0:04:57 > 0:05:00negotiation and I'm sure the president has some means that he
0:05:00 > 0:05:04wants to achieve.What is plan B? Plan a is what we are still at the
0:05:04 > 0:05:10moment, which is negotiation with the US. If that doesn't work, we
0:05:10 > 0:05:15will be looking to see if we can get some special pleading for the UK and
0:05:15 > 0:05:19I assume that is what ministers will do because, as you will know, an
0:05:19 > 0:05:23early draft of this proposed arrangement was leaked to the press
0:05:23 > 0:05:28and it suggested that Britain and Canada and Mexico would all be
0:05:28 > 0:05:32exempt.But that has been dropped. Says a full exemption has been
0:05:32 > 0:05:36dropped but that is not to say that the same tariffs would be applied to
0:05:36 > 0:05:40all the countries.What would your special pleading include?We are a
0:05:40 > 0:05:45very close ally of the US, actually the US don't have a problem with our
0:05:45 > 0:05:48steel industry that they have with China. They have a problem with the
0:05:48 > 0:05:53steel industry as they have with the EU. We are quite a small player in
0:05:53 > 0:05:57the world of steel so I don't think taking punitive measures against us
0:05:57 > 0:06:01will necessarily achieve what he wants.But he has made a fairly
0:06:01 > 0:06:05passionate defence of what he has seen as decades of decline and
0:06:05 > 0:06:09damage done to America's steel industry so if he does push ahead
0:06:09 > 0:06:14with a 25 the centre out on steel imports and 10% on aluminium, would
0:06:14 > 0:06:18usable retaliation?Would depend on what that retaliation was and I
0:06:18 > 0:06:22don't really want to see the world getting involved in a massive trade
0:06:22 > 0:06:26war. I think that would be very damaging for everybody. We do need
0:06:26 > 0:06:31to take our next up very carefully. Mary Creagh, Jeremy Corbyn, the
0:06:31 > 0:06:35Labour leader, will have some sympathy with Donald Rob, warranty,
0:06:35 > 0:06:39because he is keen on advocating a policy to protect industries here,
0:06:39 > 0:06:43like steel?I have some suburbia with Donald Trump. I agree, if you
0:06:43 > 0:06:47don't have steel then you don't have an industrial base, in the same way
0:06:47 > 0:06:49as if you don't have a chemical sector you don't have an industrial
0:06:49 > 0:06:54base either.So do you also support putting huge tariffs?Of course not
0:06:54 > 0:06:59and nobody wants to see a new round of trade was. Having grown up in
0:06:59 > 0:07:03Coventry, and manufacturing city in the Midlands and 1980s, I have seen
0:07:03 > 0:07:06the painful restructuring that the car industry went through in the
0:07:06 > 0:07:101980s but what I think this is is a brutal wake up call for the
0:07:10 > 0:07:15Brexiters who have been saying that we will do a quick fair trade deal
0:07:15 > 0:07:18with Donald Trump. Canada is in a free trade arrangement with the US.
0:07:18 > 0:07:23Their steel is going to be subject to these tariffs as well. So a free
0:07:23 > 0:07:26trade deal doesn't really get us very far and I think what Alex
0:07:26 > 0:07:31hasn't said is, we will be working with our EU partners, our voices
0:07:31 > 0:07:40amplified as part of the EU in our discussions with Donald Roger
0:07:44 > 0:07:47DockWould usable retaliation by the EU bloc?Nobody wants to get that
0:07:47 > 0:07:49that stage. We're seeing concerns on the stock markets, US forces. If it
0:07:49 > 0:07:54comes down to it, we should take action with our EU partners.It is a
0:07:54 > 0:07:57wake up call in terms of a free-trade partnership with the US.
0:07:57 > 0:08:01That would not entitle Britain, it seems, in any way to preferential
0:08:01 > 0:08:06treatment.Let's see what actually happens later in the week. There are
0:08:06 > 0:08:08signs that Canada, Britain and Mexico may be getting a different
0:08:08 > 0:08:13deal and that is because they have very strong bilateral relationships
0:08:13 > 0:08:17with the United States.That was the initial sanding and that has now
0:08:17 > 0:08:23been dropped.As I say, we have to see how this will play out. What has
0:08:23 > 0:08:26been ruled out is that no country will have a complete exemption. That
0:08:26 > 0:08:31is different to their not being any special tariff for close allies.All
0:08:31 > 0:08:33right, let's leave it there.
0:08:33 > 0:08:36Well, all that comes in the wake of Theresa May's big Brexit speech
0:08:36 > 0:08:39on Friday, in which she put more flesh on the bones of what she hopes
0:08:39 > 0:08:41life outside the EU will look like.
0:08:41 > 0:08:43It seems to have gone down reasonably well
0:08:43 > 0:08:46on the domestic front, and we should start to get a sense
0:08:46 > 0:08:47this week of the EU's thinking.
0:08:47 > 0:08:50As well as that, here's a rundown of the other big
0:08:50 > 0:08:51stories this week...
0:08:51 > 0:08:53This afternoon Theresa May will make a statement
0:08:53 > 0:08:55in the Commons following her Mansion House speech
0:08:55 > 0:08:56at the end of last week.
0:08:56 > 0:08:58Also this week, the European Council will send
0:08:58 > 0:08:59a set of draft guidelines
0:08:59 > 0:09:02for the next phase of Brexit talks - this could come
0:09:02 > 0:09:03as early as tomorrow.
0:09:03 > 0:09:06Wednesday sees Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn have their
0:09:06 > 0:09:10weekly duel at PMQs.
0:09:10 > 0:09:12On Thursday, Parliament marks the fact that it's
0:09:12 > 0:09:15International Women's Day, with the house noting the steps
0:09:15 > 0:09:20being taken to press for progress on gender equality around the world.
0:09:20 > 0:09:24Well, to walk us through a big week for Theresa May, we can talk
0:09:24 > 0:09:26to Emily Ashton from Buzzfeed,
0:09:26 > 0:09:27and the Telegraph's Christopher Hope.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31They're on College Green for us.
0:09:31 > 0:09:37There is no more snow! It has finally disappeared so you are not
0:09:37 > 0:09:41freezing like your colleagues last week. Christopher, a rare outbreak
0:09:41 > 0:09:46of relative unity on both sides of the Tory party. How long can it
0:09:46 > 0:09:51last?Maybe until Tuesday. We are doing pretty well so far. We saw
0:09:51 > 0:09:54Jacob Rees-Mogg and Nicky Morgan in our paper on Saturday saying what a
0:09:54 > 0:10:00great speech it was, how uniting it is. We are hearing... Tomorrow we
0:10:00 > 0:10:03get the guidelines on negotiations and we will see how they go. Yet
0:10:03 > 0:10:09again, Theresa May says a big speech but nothing happens for three months
0:10:09 > 0:10:13and it trends downwards and Remainers get stuck into the lack of
0:10:13 > 0:10:17information and vegetables it out of the bag again. She is taking blows
0:10:17 > 0:10:21on the rope as if she is going to fall over and never quite does, so
0:10:21 > 0:10:24we have this blissful spring air, this hardly over Brexit. Isn't it
0:10:24 > 0:10:32great?Emily, is it likely that the amendment put down by Anna Soubry
0:10:32 > 0:10:36and Ken Clarke, who are seen as art Remainers in the Conservative Party,
0:10:36 > 0:10:41an amendment to the trade bill which will come back later this year,
0:10:41 > 0:10:45which course in the UK to come into a customs union, is there a sense
0:10:45 > 0:10:48that will be dropped?You do get a sense it might be pushed down the
0:10:48 > 0:10:52road, if not dropped altogether. This was probably the most detailed
0:10:52 > 0:10:55speech from Theresa May yet but it really did like specifics. She talks
0:10:55 > 0:10:59about managed to divert and is, we are definitely not going to be the
0:10:59 > 0:11:03single market or the customs union but we will be in some kind of
0:11:03 > 0:11:06customs arrangement and that wins over some Remainers. We don't have
0:11:06 > 0:11:10the details to know exactly what the difference is yet so for now, Nicky
0:11:10 > 0:11:15Morgan and others are quite content to, OK, let's see how that goes, and
0:11:15 > 0:11:20as you say that amendment was quite a big deal because it could have had
0:11:20 > 0:11:23a no-confidence motion attached to it. That was the rumour.Alex
0:11:23 > 0:11:27Burghart, what was new, what was dramatically new in that speech, or
0:11:27 > 0:11:32conceded by Theresa May?What was lovely about the speech was the
0:11:32 > 0:11:35absolute disappointment of journalists on Sunday, who are
0:11:35 > 0:11:38absolutely incapable of finding anyone other than Michael Heseltine
0:11:38 > 0:11:44to say that it wasn't up to scratch. So what we have is a very unifying
0:11:44 > 0:11:48speech, which has, at the end of this process, this phase, pulled
0:11:48 > 0:11:52together from both sides what we can actually do, practically do...But
0:11:52 > 0:11:56what was new? What was then you think she announced that really
0:11:56 > 0:12:00moves these negotiations on?What moves the sun is that we have set
0:12:00 > 0:12:03out very clearly what our negotiating position is, going into
0:12:03 > 0:12:06the final...But we knew about living a customs union and the
0:12:06 > 0:12:12single market and we knew
0:12:18 > 0:12:21there was going to be an element of managed to diverging somebody wanted
0:12:21 > 0:12:23technological solutions for the Irish border. What was new?All of
0:12:23 > 0:12:25these things are going to be extremely important as we go into
0:12:25 > 0:12:29the next phase. It is now been set by the Prime Minister on the eve of
0:12:29 > 0:12:31the most important we will have a generation and it will form the
0:12:31 > 0:12:34basis of what happens. The PM has set out that this is a negotiating
0:12:34 > 0:12:37position, that both sides are going to have to make compromises but it
0:12:37 > 0:12:39enables her to deliver on the Lancaster House speech, which is
0:12:39 > 0:12:43essentially what both wings of the Conservative Party wanted DockShe
0:12:43 > 0:12:46can only deliver, Christopher hope, Matt Lancaster House speech if the
0:12:46 > 0:12:51EU agreed what was set out in watches on Friday, and apart from a
0:12:51 > 0:12:55fat that I can't really see anything that massively changes the dial
0:12:55 > 0:13:01apart from this attempt at unifying both sides of the party, will the EU
0:13:01 > 0:13:04accepted?They may or they may not. They are still angling over the
0:13:04 > 0:13:08border with the EU, and it would appear now in the island of Ireland.
0:13:08 > 0:13:12She said some quite new things. I would take issue with your guest in
0:13:12 > 0:13:16the studio. She talked about how 80 % of goods will travel north, south,
0:13:16 > 0:13:20and not be checked across the border, 20% might be, which might be
0:13:20 > 0:13:25by CCTV cameras. Or the congestion charge camera to grow Boris Johnson.
0:13:25 > 0:13:29That was pretty new. I thought the fact she was going to attach
0:13:29 > 0:13:34financial services to the treaty with the EU when we negotiate and
0:13:34 > 0:13:37passporting is now a job. There will be a speech on Wednesday when it
0:13:37 > 0:13:44will be made clear that the EU agreed on the TTIP to put financial
0:13:44 > 0:13:49services into that deal. Why can't they do it with Brexit?But in a
0:13:49 > 0:13:52sense we sort of knew that was the direction of travel from the
0:13:52 > 0:13:55government. What we don't get a sense of is, is the EU going to sign
0:13:55 > 0:14:00up to what they will still regard as cherry picking in many instances
0:14:00 > 0:14:05and, also, allowing the mutual recognition until such time that
0:14:05 > 0:14:09parliament chooses to divert?You have already seen some action from
0:14:09 > 0:14:16the EU. -- reaction. You saw diva of start, who was pretty scathing about
0:14:16 > 0:14:21it. -- Guy Verhofstadt. They are a bit baffled. You can't say I am
0:14:21 > 0:14:24going to avoid a hard border in Ireland but also one frictionless
0:14:24 > 0:14:29trade. You can't say both. Where are the details allowing that to happen?
0:14:29 > 0:14:32You can't just do it to the EU and say, can you sort this problem out
0:14:32 > 0:14:36because the ball is in your court? I think they are a bit frustrated with
0:14:36 > 0:14:46the lack of detail.Mary Creagh, in terms of Labour
0:14:47 > 0:14:50terms of Labour pub's policy, does that solve the issue of the Irish
0:14:50 > 0:14:54border?It doesn't do they go some way to solving it but we have to
0:14:54 > 0:14:56stay in the single market if we are to maintain a frictionless invisible
0:14:56 > 0:15:02border across the island of Ireland. I have called on Jeremy... I have
0:15:02 > 0:15:06been voting to stay in the customs union. I think a customs union is a
0:15:06 > 0:15:09semantic phrase but I think we will need to go further and faster on
0:15:09 > 0:15:13this in the Labour Party but can I do say, on the Prime Minister's
0:15:13 > 0:15:17speech, she has moved from running through fields of wheat to walking
0:15:17 > 0:15:20through a cherry orchard that is not yet in flower, let alone fruiting,
0:15:20 > 0:15:26and these cherries are not on offer from the EU.It is a negotiation,
0:15:26 > 0:15:31isn't it?
0:15:36 > 0:15:37isn't it?The aviation agency, the medicines agency... We cannot sit
0:15:37 > 0:15:41around the table and have a vote. That is not on offer to us and I
0:15:41 > 0:15:44think the key part of the speech was the bit where she said we would have
0:15:44 > 0:15:46less access to each other's markets. That is the truth of Brexit, the
0:15:46 > 0:15:49Brexit that was the exact same benefits which was to the British
0:15:49 > 0:15:55people cannot be delivered.
0:15:55 > 0:16:00I am so sick of cherry and cake metaphors.I think the government
0:16:00 > 0:16:02only ones that mentioned those metaphors won more than one
0:16:02 > 0:16:09occasion.That's what she told people.The PM has said we are going
0:16:09 > 0:16:13to have, you know, less free access to each other Bosman markets.The
0:16:13 > 0:16:16exact same benefits was what we were told.Obviously what comes along
0:16:16 > 0:16:21with this was the ability to strike free trade deals with other
0:16:21 > 0:16:26countries and jurisdictions.Like the US.Yes but also countries in
0:16:26 > 0:16:29the second world, New World, developing world. Having trade deals
0:16:29 > 0:16:32that will help bring down the cost of living for people in the UK,
0:16:32 > 0:16:36things we can't currently do. That is part of the opportunity of
0:16:36 > 0:16:40Brexit.The analysis has implied so fight wouldn't replace potential
0:16:40 > 0:16:44loss of trade.It depends on how you do it. -- implied it wouldn't
0:16:44 > 0:16:51replace.Emily, do you think the speech by Theresa May has somewhat
0:16:51 > 0:16:54blunted Labour's announcement that they are going to stay in a customs
0:16:54 > 0:16:57union?
0:16:57 > 0:17:01Yeah. Labour were obviously keen to join Anna Soubry's Amendment. And
0:17:01 > 0:17:06hopefully defeat the government and causing the government problems. For
0:17:06 > 0:17:11the Remoaners to maybe back away from that amendment hasn't done
0:17:11 > 0:17:18Labour any favours. -- for the Remainers. It seems better
0:17:18 > 0:17:20relationships in the Tory party but we will see there's deep divides
0:17:20 > 0:17:24form again.Thank you very much -- those deep divides.
0:17:24 > 0:17:27One of the crucial issues still be resolved in the Brexit talks
0:17:27 > 0:17:28is the Irish border.
0:17:28 > 0:17:33In her speech on Friday, Theresa May suggested that a hard border
0:17:33 > 0:17:37between Northern Ireland and the Republic.
0:17:37 > 0:17:41Perhaps by using technology and exempting small businesses.
0:17:41 > 0:17:43Which account for 80% of cross-border trade, from checks.
0:17:43 > 0:17:45Ireland's Deputy Prime Minister, Simon Coveney, gave his reaction
0:17:45 > 0:17:47on the Andrew Marr show yesterday.
0:17:47 > 0:17:51I'm not sure that the European Union will be able to support
0:17:51 > 0:17:53a situation whereby 80% of companies that trade...
0:17:53 > 0:17:55Ah, well...
0:17:55 > 0:17:57..North-South and South-North will actually protect the integrity
0:17:57 > 0:18:00of the EU single market, which will be a big priority
0:18:00 > 0:18:01for the EU negotiating team.
0:18:01 > 0:18:04OK.
0:18:04 > 0:18:07While, of course, we will explore and look at all of the proposed
0:18:07 > 0:18:09British solutions, they are essentially a starting
0:18:09 > 0:18:15point in negotiations as opposed to an end point.
0:18:15 > 0:18:18Joining me now from Belfast is Dr Katy Hayward, an academic
0:18:18 > 0:18:19from Queen's University Belfast.
0:18:19 > 0:18:21She's an expert on Irish cross-border relations
0:18:21 > 0:18:27and EU integration.
0:18:28 > 0:18:31Welcome to the Daily Politics. Theresa May said on Friday she
0:18:31 > 0:18:34offered not one but two separate solutions to the Irish border issue
0:18:34 > 0:18:39after Brexit and that now it's incumbent on the EU to give those
0:18:39 > 0:18:45options serious considerations. Is she right?We only heard on Friday a
0:18:45 > 0:18:48reiteration of what she had said in August, which is customs union
0:18:48 > 0:18:53partnership and customs arrangement which was already dismissed by the
0:18:53 > 0:18:59EU as being magical thinking. It's quite, significant that the customs
0:18:59 > 0:19:03partnership idea has not progressed any further. A customs union, you
0:19:03 > 0:19:08are either in or out and the suggestion that 80% of traders
0:19:08 > 0:19:12wouldn't be subject to customs requirement is nonsensical because
0:19:12 > 0:19:16it means you are essentially saying your border is open.You say it's
0:19:16 > 0:19:20nonsensical. At this customs partnership that you have outlined,
0:19:20 > 0:19:25it would be where we would agree to charge the EU's tariffs on goods
0:19:25 > 0:19:29heading to the continent via the UK and we wouldn't need to check them
0:19:29 > 0:19:37when moving to the UK from the EU. What is wrong with that?A customs
0:19:37 > 0:19:42union arrangement is essentially... You are dealing with what the UK is
0:19:42 > 0:19:48saying for their country and the EU. If you have different arrangements
0:19:48 > 0:19:53between the UK and EU third countries, you have to have
0:19:53 > 0:19:56different implications for the border, the management of that
0:19:56 > 0:19:59border. It is impossible to enact two different customs arrangements
0:19:59 > 0:20:06at the same time.Can you explain it for our viewers? It is difficult to
0:20:06 > 0:20:10imagine for all of us exactly what it would mean in practice. Theresa
0:20:10 > 0:20:13May also talks about technology being used, which would mean there
0:20:13 > 0:20:17would be a sort of invisible border because you could preregister
0:20:17 > 0:20:21companies, you could have a set of trusted traders. Why is that not
0:20:21 > 0:20:28workable?Technology can be used to make a customs border control more
0:20:28 > 0:20:32efficient and certainly speed up movement across a customs border and
0:20:32 > 0:20:36a trusted Trader scheme is well-established.
0:20:36 > 0:20:40But it doesn't replace the need for clarity about what that customs
0:20:40 > 0:20:43border arrangement actually is. I've described it before, you are
0:20:43 > 0:20:48thinking about technology as trying to think about the light fittings in
0:20:48 > 0:20:52a house before you've even got the planning permission for the house.
0:20:52 > 0:20:54It is that planning permission, the structures of the house that needs
0:20:54 > 0:21:01much more
0:21:01 > 0:21:04much more clarity. Technology does not replace the need to enact a
0:21:04 > 0:21:09customs border, it is just a means of doing so.When we talk about a
0:21:09 > 0:21:12hardboard and everybody says they want to avoid a hard border, is that
0:21:12 > 0:21:18cameras along the 300 miles? Is it infrastructure that would stop a
0:21:18 > 0:21:24number of trucks and deliveries coming through that border? Is that
0:21:24 > 0:21:28what a hardboard looks like?A hardboard is felt in the differences
0:21:28 > 0:21:35on either side.-- hard border looks like.For example, what a business
0:21:35 > 0:21:39and company has to do to move their goods across the border and if
0:21:39 > 0:21:41somebody wants to provide a service on the other side of the border,
0:21:41 > 0:21:46what they have to do to be able to cross it. It's in those barriers,
0:21:46 > 0:21:50those obstacles and difficulties that a hard border is felt.Not just
0:21:50 > 0:21:55in terms of infrastructure. Alex, listening to that, Katie is an
0:21:55 > 0:22:00expert. She says the two proposals being put forward by the Prime
0:22:00 > 0:22:05Minister are not workable solutions. The Prime Minister has said it is
0:22:05 > 0:22:08incumbent on the government working with the Irish government and the EU
0:22:08 > 0:22:14to come up with better ideas. What are those better ideas?With all due
0:22:14 > 0:22:19respect to Katy, I disagree. The solution put forward by the Prime
0:22:19 > 0:22:23Minister is workable.Which one?A technological solution which would
0:22:23 > 0:22:30enable relatively free flow of trade across the border with a large
0:22:30 > 0:22:37exemption for small traders but with automatic... Electronic tracking for
0:22:37 > 0:22:39large traders. The reason I say I think this is workable is because
0:22:39 > 0:22:46not only does it sound sensible but in November last year, the European
0:22:46 > 0:22:48Parliament's policy Department of citizens rights and constitutional
0:22:48 > 0:22:53affairs published a paper called Smart border 2.0 where they proposed
0:22:53 > 0:22:57exactly this. They looked at a range of border arrangements including
0:22:57 > 0:23:02Canada and the US who are not in a customs union but where technology
0:23:02 > 0:23:06has enabled exactly this sort of relationship across the border. The
0:23:06 > 0:23:09fact that there are people in Europe saying this is possible and we are
0:23:09 > 0:23:13saying it is possible in the UK means this may be one way of getting
0:23:13 > 0:23:17to the end point we all want to get to, which is to have a borderless
0:23:17 > 0:23:23situation with Ireland. We want that, the EU wants that and the
0:23:23 > 0:23:27Irish comment once that.What do you say to that?I was commissioned with
0:23:27 > 0:23:32David Fenimore to write a report for the same committee, sat beside the
0:23:32 > 0:23:34person who presented the report to the European Parliament that it was
0:23:34 > 0:23:36clear that the Smart border technology does not avert the need
0:23:36 > 0:23:44for properly enforcing a customs border. If you are saying that 80%
0:23:44 > 0:23:47of traders will not have to... Not face any restrictions crossing the
0:23:47 > 0:23:50border, you are essentially saying you are not enacting a customs
0:23:50 > 0:23:55border. This is the problem from the EU's point of view. How do they know
0:23:55 > 0:23:59that goods coming in are of a lower standards, according to trade steals
0:23:59 > 0:24:04the UK do, will not come into the EU via Northern Ireland? This is a
0:24:04 > 0:24:09serious point. In his report, and presentation, he was clear that he
0:24:09 > 0:24:12is not clear about the particularities of the Irish case.
0:24:12 > 0:24:16There is a very clear need for distinctive arrangements in relation
0:24:16 > 0:24:20to Ireland and Northern Ireland. It was good to see Theresa May
0:24:20 > 0:24:24reiterating again on Friday that the 1998 agreement has to be central to
0:24:24 > 0:24:31what ever is put forward for Ireland and Northern Ireland in the future.
0:24:31 > 0:24:34Mary, you said you don't think Labour's policy as it stands will
0:24:34 > 0:24:39solve the Irish border issue either, we would have to stay in a single
0:24:39 > 0:24:42market as well. But there is no sign that Jeremy Corbyn will sign up to
0:24:42 > 0:24:47that.I think Jeremy Hunt 's moved onto the customs union and we could
0:24:47 > 0:24:52see further movement -- Jeromy has
0:24:52 > 0:24:56on to. We could see that become clearer during the negotiation
0:24:56 > 0:25:00phase. Can I go back to what Katy has been saying, this is magical
0:25:00 > 0:25:07thinking from the Prime Minister. Katy analogy about the house is
0:25:07 > 0:25:10important because the Prime Minister can't say what she wants because to
0:25:10 > 0:25:15set out what she wants would separate the two wings of her party
0:25:15 > 0:25:21in an irrevocable split. She focuses on the means but not the what. She
0:25:21 > 0:25:24talks by technological solutions, can somebody help us with this but
0:25:24 > 0:25:28she does not say what she actually wants. I'm afraid it's another
0:25:28 > 0:25:33classic example of fudge.She has and what she wants, and invisible
0:25:33 > 0:25:37border, technological solutions -- has said what she wants. To ease
0:25:37 > 0:25:39that across the border and she doesn't want to break up the
0:25:39 > 0:25:44integrity of the UK rightly or wrongly... That is why it cannot be
0:25:44 > 0:25:50down the Irish Sea.We all want that.Having a customs border. What
0:25:50 > 0:25:56do you mean?She cannot say how she will stop Northern Ireland becoming
0:25:56 > 0:26:01an entry point for goods of a lower standard and quality. Until she can
0:26:01 > 0:26:05do that, all the talk of technological solutions is for the
0:26:05 > 0:26:08birds, fantasies. She meets talk about what the customs arrangements
0:26:08 > 0:26:11will be and what they will cover before we get into cameras and
0:26:11 > 0:26:15border checks -- she needs to talk about.We will find out the EU's
0:26:15 > 0:26:16response later this week.
0:26:16 > 0:26:18Now it's time for our daily quiz.
0:26:18 > 0:26:20For World Book Day last week, politicians were asked
0:26:20 > 0:26:23to name their favourite book as a child - with Chancellor
0:26:23 > 0:26:25Philip Hammond choosing The Cat In The Hat by Dr Seuss.
0:26:25 > 0:26:27But, according to The Times, that's apparently only
0:26:27 > 0:26:30after he was urged by Downing Street officials to change
0:26:30 > 0:26:33from his first choice.
0:26:33 > 0:26:34The mind boggles.
0:26:34 > 0:26:35Was that...
0:26:35 > 0:26:37A - The Intelligent Investor by Benjamin Graham?
0:26:37 > 0:26:39B - Nineteen Eighty Four by George Orwell?
0:26:39 > 0:26:41C - How to Win Friends And Influence People by Dale Carnegie?
0:26:41 > 0:26:42C - How to Win Friends And Influence People by Dale Carnegie?
0:26:42 > 0:26:44Or D - The Chancellors by Roy Jenkins?
0:26:44 > 0:26:47At the end of the show, Mary and Alex will give
0:26:47 > 0:26:50us the correct answer.
0:26:50 > 0:26:55And perhaps tell us their favourite books when they were children.Going
0:26:55 > 0:26:58one and then two.
0:26:58 > 0:27:00Now, you probably won't remember much about the substance
0:27:00 > 0:27:02of Theresa May's conference speech last year, but you probably
0:27:02 > 0:27:05will remember the protestor handing her a P45 and that
0:27:05 > 0:27:07awful coughing fit.
0:27:07 > 0:27:09But, amid the coughs, she did promise to put housing
0:27:09 > 0:27:11centre stage of her premiership.
0:27:11 > 0:27:14Well, today, she has been attempting to do just that, unveiling new plans
0:27:14 > 0:27:15to boost homebuilding.
0:27:15 > 0:27:19Here she is making a cough-free speech a little earlier.
0:27:19 > 0:27:21The impact of rising prices goes beyond the simple division
0:27:21 > 0:27:27between housing haves and have-nots.
0:27:27 > 0:27:30This crisis of unaffordability is also creating a crisis of almost
0:27:30 > 0:27:32literal social immobility.
0:27:32 > 0:27:35Think of the skilled, experienced worker who is offered a promotion,
0:27:35 > 0:27:37but can't afford to take it up, because it would mean
0:27:37 > 0:27:43moving to a town or city where he can't afford to live.
0:27:43 > 0:27:45Think of the talented young woman from a working-class background
0:27:45 > 0:27:48who can't afford to take an entry-level professional job,
0:27:48 > 0:27:52because she wouldn't be able to live nearby.
0:27:52 > 0:27:54It's not so hard to accept that door-opening internship in London
0:27:54 > 0:27:59if your parents own a large house in central London.
0:27:59 > 0:28:02It's a much greater challenge if you share a room with your
0:28:03 > 0:28:06We'll hear from the housing minister Dominic Raab in a moment,
0:28:06 > 0:28:09but first of all, let's speak to Hilary Newport from the Campaign
0:28:09 > 0:28:10to Protect Rural England.
0:28:10 > 0:28:13She is the director of the group's Kent branch.
0:28:15 > 0:28:19Welcome to the programme. Theresa May has been speaking about a crisis
0:28:19 > 0:28:23in affordability in housing that she says is creating a crisis of almost
0:28:23 > 0:28:26literally social immobility in the country. What is wrong with this
0:28:26 > 0:28:29cupboard wanting to build more houses to address that?Nothing is
0:28:29 > 0:28:34wrong with that.-- this government wanting.The crisis is of
0:28:34 > 0:28:38affordability rather than availability. We are keen to see
0:28:38 > 0:28:41proper policies that makes homes affordable for people genuinely.
0:28:41 > 0:28:48What would you like to genuinely propose?We need to think hard about
0:28:48 > 0:28:50returning to social housing because it's impossible for people to afford
0:28:50 > 0:28:53to get on the property ladder in London or in the south-east. We need
0:28:53 > 0:28:56to address proper social solutions that will give people a decent place
0:28:56 > 0:29:00to live.Does it make it difficult if there are restrictions being put
0:29:00 > 0:29:03on the government, attempts to put restrictions on the government as to
0:29:03 > 0:29:07where they can build these hundreds of thousands new homes they are
0:29:07 > 0:29:11promising?Certainly. The modifications to the new planning
0:29:11 > 0:29:16policy framework are suggesting we need to pack far more homes into the
0:29:16 > 0:29:20overheated Southeast and London. That is a false hope. Simply
0:29:20 > 0:29:24building more and more houses in places already overstretched isn't
0:29:24 > 0:29:28going to bring down affordability. We need a proper social policy that
0:29:28 > 0:29:37helps people.You know that will be an accusation levelled out to you of
0:29:37 > 0:29:42Nimbyism. Where would you support a big house-building programme?We
0:29:42 > 0:29:45support measures... We talk about the Northern powerhouse. The
0:29:45 > 0:29:49modification to the national policy planning framework would see fewer
0:29:49 > 0:29:53homes built in the parts of north-east and north-west where
0:29:53 > 0:29:57economic growth is desperately needed.At the moment lots of the
0:29:57 > 0:30:01jobs are in the south and around the home Counties. Will you support a
0:30:01 > 0:30:05big house-building programme there? The sort of affordability you talk
0:30:05 > 0:30:09about.
0:30:09 > 0:30:12We certainly accept that some greenfield sites have to be handed
0:30:12 > 0:30:16over for housing delivery but we want proper planning policies that
0:30:16 > 0:30:20allow authorities to direct development to where it would do the
0:30:20 > 0:30:23most good and the least harm. At the moment that is very hard.All will
0:30:23 > 0:30:28just store the process?I don't believe it will but it developers
0:30:28 > 0:30:33need to be incentivised to provide the housing people need.And you
0:30:33 > 0:30:37reassured that the Government is not going to tear up the green belt?It
0:30:37 > 0:30:41is difficult to see how that can properly be enshrined when you look
0:30:41 > 0:30:44at a district like Sevenoaks which has historically high housing
0:30:44 > 0:30:48targets and it is almost all green belt so it would be hard to deliver
0:30:48 > 0:30:53those kinds of target and something has to give, either the number of
0:30:53 > 0:30:57houses they are being forced to build all the green belt, I'm
0:30:57 > 0:31:00afraid, and that is simply impossible to reconcile at the
0:31:00 > 0:31:02moment.Thank you for joining us.
0:31:02 > 0:31:04Well, we can discuss this now with the Housing
0:31:04 > 0:31:05minister Dominic Raab.
0:31:05 > 0:31:06Welcome to the programme.
0:31:06 > 0:31:10You heard that this is about affordability, not availability.
0:31:10 > 0:31:15What do you say to that?It is about both but the trouble with the
0:31:15 > 0:31:18Campaign to Protect Rural England is that social housing is at its
0:31:18 > 0:31:21highest demand in London on the south-east as well and therefore if
0:31:21 > 0:31:25they don't want us to build there we are caught with a Catch-22 of their
0:31:25 > 0:31:28own making. But actually, what we are going to do is give local
0:31:28 > 0:31:32authorities more tools in the box, that is what the planning and policy
0:31:32 > 0:31:37framework will do, for example to build up a story or two, mews
0:31:37 > 0:31:41houses, terraced streets, and we're going to create more freedom for
0:31:41 > 0:31:45them. But neither council level zero local government level can we dubbed
0:31:45 > 0:31:47the challenge to build more homes for the future.Theresa May return
0:31:47 > 0:31:52to her theme with the Brexit speech on Friday about the just about
0:31:52 > 0:31:55managing and the implication of the burning injustices that she wants to
0:31:55 > 0:31:59do something about. Why has it taken so long to get to grips with this
0:31:59 > 0:32:02issue?It has come together because you have central government, local
0:32:02 > 0:32:06authorities and the whole business community. Every one of those has a
0:32:06 > 0:32:13role to play. But if you look at homeownership, it declined 2003 two
0:32:13 > 0:32:162014, stabilised since. If you look at the last year, we got new homes
0:32:16 > 0:32:23delivered up to 217,000, the highest level in all but one of the last
0:32:23 > 0:32:29years.From a very, very low bar. You're absolutely right. We have to
0:32:29 > 0:32:33do more. We have the homes of research fund...But why haven't you
0:32:33 > 0:32:37brought more affordable homes in the last two years? If Theresa May keeps
0:32:37 > 0:32:40talking about people who are struggling and that just about
0:32:40 > 0:32:43managing, why has there been absolutely no progress in terms of
0:32:43 > 0:32:47building more affordable homes?For example if you look at the last
0:32:47 > 0:32:50seven years we have seen more affordable homes delivered than the
0:32:50 > 0:32:57previous seven years.Let's look at the figures. But affordable homes in
0:32:57 > 0:33:042009-10 was 58,290 and it has fallen to 41,530, so that is a drop.But if
0:33:04 > 0:33:09you're looking over a longer term... But I'm not.I'm suggesting you
0:33:09 > 0:33:16should.Well, you would suggest that but the figures have come down. They
0:33:16 > 0:33:22have come down to 41,530.I totally accept we have to do more but
0:33:22 > 0:33:25frankly, whether you're talking about homes overall or affordable
0:33:25 > 0:33:28homes, the key thing is to build up supply and have more homes coming
0:33:28 > 0:33:33onto the market, whether it is for ownership, co-ownership or rent or
0:33:33 > 0:33:36social rent and that is why planning reform is one very important piece
0:33:36 > 0:33:41of a jigsaw.You have talked about affordable homes and say overall
0:33:41 > 0:33:44there have been more homes built. What about council homes? If we're
0:33:44 > 0:33:47talking about affordability and you say that is critical, hammy council
0:33:47 > 0:33:51homes have been built in the last year?I'm not sure what the figure
0:33:51 > 0:33:54would be for the year alone because I tend to look at affordable homes
0:33:54 > 0:34:03in the Number Ten.New homes for social rent in 2016-17 worth 5380.
0:34:03 > 0:34:11In 2009-10 they were 33,490. But is a drop of over 80%.We have to do
0:34:11 > 0:34:16better.Better? That is...Let me give you the answer. But as one of
0:34:16 > 0:34:19the reasons why we have raised the borrowing cut by £1 billion for
0:34:19 > 0:34:22local authorities so yes, we can build homes through the local
0:34:22 > 0:34:26authorities. There is no one single thing that is going to do this. It
0:34:26 > 0:34:29is about pressure on local authorities, a squeeze on developers
0:34:29 > 0:34:32and looking at the national planning framework and making sure the tools
0:34:32 > 0:34:36are there for developers of authorities to do the job.But that
0:34:36 > 0:34:40is not the answer. There has been no action. There has been lots of words
0:34:40 > 0:34:44and rhetoric from Theresa May but when we try and match that rhetoric
0:34:44 > 0:34:47with action, you see more can be done. Absolutely, more can be done
0:34:47 > 0:34:51but at the moment the direction of travel has been in the totally wrong
0:34:51 > 0:34:57direction.I don't think that is fair.On new homes for social rent,
0:34:57 > 0:35:00we're talking about people who are just about managing...We have the
0:35:00 > 0:35:04highest number of first-time buyers since the financial crash, a really
0:35:04 > 0:35:10important statistic.Is that the just about managing, the people just
0:35:10 > 0:35:12scraping by?These are people who weren't getting on the housing
0:35:12 > 0:35:17ladder before but we have got to do more. Hell to buy is being
0:35:17 > 0:35:19criticised but has helped a lot of the people who wouldn't have a
0:35:19 > 0:35:23chance to get on the housing ladder, release the public sector land, and
0:35:23 > 0:35:28cutting stamp duty for important buyers is a thing to do. We have
0:35:28 > 0:35:33about half a dozen levers to get home building up about 30% harder.
0:35:33 > 0:35:38Planning reform today will deliver that.Would you agree that a burning
0:35:38 > 0:35:43injustices and 86% drop in the number of affordable homes that have
0:35:43 > 0:35:46been built?Look, I don't embarrass anyone statistic that does it
0:35:46 > 0:35:49justice but if you are making the point that we need to build not just
0:35:49 > 0:35:54more homes but more affordable homes for the key workers, the nurses,
0:35:54 > 0:35:58those in the private sector, I absolutely agree. That is why we are
0:35:58 > 0:36:01straining to do more and the planning reforms, I know they are
0:36:01 > 0:36:12very technical and people don't like
0:36:16 > 0:36:19to get into the detail of it but we are giving local authorities greater
0:36:19 > 0:36:22tools to do the job and putting a bit more of a squeeze on them and
0:36:22 > 0:36:25saying, we can't dock this any more. What is the squeeze? Would you put
0:36:25 > 0:36:27sanctions on councils who don't meet targets?What they planning policy
0:36:27 > 0:36:30changes today set out is putting the squeeze on the authorities who,
0:36:30 > 0:36:32let's put it like this, abdicate their responsibility to either
0:36:32 > 0:36:34provide the housing supply or get the homes built when it is very
0:36:34 > 0:36:37clear what the homes their community need are and, at the same time, it
0:36:37 > 0:36:41is not all one-way traffic. We are putting £5 billion through the homes
0:36:41 > 0:36:46infrastructure funds in production -- providing the schools, roads, so
0:36:46 > 0:36:51that wouldn't just build homes but provide strong communities.You have
0:36:51 > 0:36:54set out proposals and I have put to use stark figures that don't show
0:36:54 > 0:36:58there has been improvement on affordable homes and homes for
0:36:58 > 0:37:01social rent but even in the conference speech last year by
0:37:01 > 0:37:05Theresa May, which was going to be billed as a sort of housing
0:37:05 > 0:37:09revolution, the price there was only 5000 more homes, affordable homes
0:37:09 > 0:37:15and homes for social rent every year for five years. Is that enough?I
0:37:15 > 0:37:20think our target is to get up to 300,000 new homes...At his new
0:37:20 > 0:37:24homes, I am talking about affordable homes for social rented topI think
0:37:24 > 0:37:28dividing a dog is not right. Government is saying they are the
0:37:28 > 0:37:34people you want to help.But if you get up those new homes delivered to
0:37:34 > 0:37:38the figure of 300,000 which is long-term plan, nobody said it would
0:37:38 > 0:37:41happen overnight, you bring the affordability down for the nurse,
0:37:41 > 0:37:44the teacher, the family working extra shifts to try and settle down
0:37:44 > 0:37:48and get their foot on the housing ladder.Heather Wheeler, the new
0:37:48 > 0:37:53minister for homelessness, has said she will resign if the figure for
0:37:53 > 0:37:55the number of rough sleepers gets worse. Will you give the same
0:37:55 > 0:38:01assurance of targets are met?Look, I'm putting my heart and soul into
0:38:01 > 0:38:04getting the new homes delivered. I'm not going to make this all about my
0:38:04 > 0:38:09reputation or what I'm doing but what I can tell you is that on every
0:38:09 > 0:38:14one of those levers, Sajid Javid, the Secretary of State, myself and
0:38:14 > 0:38:17the Prime Minister will be yanking those levers harder to get those
0:38:17 > 0:38:20homes built and that is not just the way we provide the homes Britain
0:38:20 > 0:38:23needs but make them more affordable for precisely the people you are
0:38:23 > 0:38:28talking about.But that is a clear assurance missed you minister and
0:38:28 > 0:38:30she is putting her reputation on the line on an issue that your
0:38:30 > 0:38:34government has said is going to be absolutely critical. Theresa May
0:38:34 > 0:38:37said it is going to be at the forefront at centre stage. You are
0:38:37 > 0:38:41on the front line of the housing minister.The Prime Minister has
0:38:41 > 0:38:45already made clear that I will be for the high jump unless... So don't
0:38:45 > 0:38:49worry about what I say. The fact we have Heather Wheeler, and extra
0:38:49 > 0:38:54housing minister, dealing with this crucial issue of rough sleeping,
0:38:54 > 0:38:57shows that commitment.And it shows that commitment because the number
0:38:57 > 0:39:05of rough sleepers has tripled between 2010 and 2017 from 1068 up
0:39:05 > 0:39:11to 4060. It is shameful.We have to do much better. I have volunteered
0:39:11 > 0:39:14at a housing charity in new because a lot of people who find themselves
0:39:14 > 0:39:18that awful position of the lack of a roof over their head is the symptom
0:39:18 > 0:39:24not the course. We have got to do better.The Tory councillor who
0:39:24 > 0:39:27chairs the Local Government Association, Gary Porta, said on
0:39:27 > 0:39:32Twitter, the answer is not another planning law shake-up but to let
0:39:32 > 0:39:36councils build homes themselves. Do you agree with him?I can fully
0:39:36 > 0:39:38signed up to the package that has been announced today and one of the
0:39:38 > 0:39:41things that comes up time and time again, from young constituent of
0:39:41 > 0:39:46mine out in Essex, their parents and grandparents want to see more
0:39:46 > 0:39:50housing made available and they want to see it put up in a sustainable
0:39:50 > 0:39:53way and it is something that has been close to my heart for a while
0:39:53 > 0:39:57and I was very pleased to hear sad to Javad talking about it over the
0:39:57 > 0:40:02weekend, the creation of new towns and new villages, which enables
0:40:02 > 0:40:06government to put the infrastructure in, but schools in, but the roads
0:40:06 > 0:40:11in, make sure the clinics are there. That is a very positive vision for
0:40:11 > 0:40:17what has and should be.Can you sign up to a too?What we have is a
0:40:17 > 0:40:20global crisis, I homelessness crisis...I have done that with
0:40:20 > 0:40:24Dominic Raab but can you sign up to the proposals announced today and
0:40:24 > 0:40:29the commitment that is being made to building more homes?My question is,
0:40:29 > 0:40:33where is the underpinning investment coming from? What my concern is
0:40:33 > 0:40:37about changes that this government has made, for example on zero carbon
0:40:37 > 0:40:42homes, these homes are going to be around for the next 70 two 100 years
0:40:42 > 0:40:47and they're not being put before climate changed. Where is the work
0:40:47 > 0:40:51on sustainable drainage? We have homes that are without water because
0:40:51 > 0:40:54of the leaks. We have to look at this and the Government has got rid
0:40:54 > 0:40:59of the decontamination grants to tear whoa Vera Banfield cites.Do
0:40:59 > 0:41:04you support the pledge to build new homes? It has gone up to a level
0:41:04 > 0:41:11that was last reached in 2007-08. Everybody wants to get home
0:41:11 > 0:41:16ownership up and homelessness down. The question is, who is the party
0:41:16 > 0:41:18that you Chris Thomas, the Tories with their record broken promises on
0:41:18 > 0:41:23this?We haven't got time to do Labour's record but it wasn't very
0:41:23 > 0:41:32good either.I didn't interrupt you. We've got more houses in every year
0:41:32 > 0:41:35of a Labour government than any of the first five years of your
0:41:35 > 0:41:38government and you are only now coming to this and there is a
0:41:38 > 0:41:43collapse in the houses being built for social rented housing. Councils
0:41:43 > 0:41:47are spending £1 billion a year in accommodation for homeless families.
0:41:47 > 0:41:51You had better have a response that before I let you go. What do you say
0:41:51 > 0:42:04in response?You have a shadow Labour minister who says that
0:42:04 > 0:42:06housing is important under Labour leader who says all property is
0:42:06 > 0:42:09theft. They voted against our stamp duty cut for first-time buyers but
0:42:09 > 0:42:11friendly, nobody gives a monkey's what the tit-for-tat between Mary
0:42:11 > 0:42:13and I years. Crucially, we all agree on getting the affordability down
0:42:13 > 0:42:15for key workers and the people on low and middle incomes.Dominic
0:42:15 > 0:42:16Raab, thank you.
0:42:16 > 0:42:18Italians have been voting in a general election
0:42:18 > 0:42:20over the weekend and the results overnight
0:42:20 > 0:42:21have delivered a hung parliament and record backing
0:42:21 > 0:42:23to anti-establishment and far-right groups.
0:42:23 > 0:42:29Our reporter, Gavin Lee, joins us live from Rome.
0:42:29 > 0:42:36Brings us up to date.A very wet in Rome today. A cloudy sky and a
0:42:36 > 0:42:41cloudy future because we have a hung parliament. There are different
0:42:41 > 0:42:45people claiming victory. I think right now the single party that has
0:42:45 > 0:42:51the momentum, it seems, is the 5-star Movement, apropos of nothing
0:42:51 > 0:42:57five years ago, a comedian with very low EU rhetoric wanted a referendum
0:42:57 > 0:43:02on the euro. To doubling of scale that backed it up they have a hard
0:43:02 > 0:43:07call on the EU, 31-year-old sharps spoken, sharp suited man, made a
0:43:07 > 0:43:12speech if you minutes ago in which he spoke about a new start for Italy
0:43:12 > 0:43:16and said he was delighted beyond words and open to works were bottles
0:43:16 > 0:43:24the move parties. They are the single biggest party, as far as the
0:43:24 > 0:43:29vote is... It is almost finished voting now. The single biggest party
0:43:29 > 0:43:33in Italy. The bigger coalition is the centre-right, Silvio Berlusconi
0:43:33 > 0:43:37back from the dead. Is a centre-right coalition collectively
0:43:37 > 0:43:44has more votes but that is because of the hard right anti-immigration
0:43:44 > 0:43:49party, the league, and its leader today saying that he thanks John
0:43:49 > 0:43:52Claude Younger of the European Union for saying more bad things about his
0:43:52 > 0:43:56party because it has helped them getting votes. So now they have to
0:43:56 > 0:44:00work at the business of who is going to work with who, how will work, a
0:44:00 > 0:44:03quick word for the people who used to be the government building behind
0:44:03 > 0:44:10me... A lot of rain just fell, as you see! They are sodden too at the
0:44:10 > 0:44:16moment because they are third, walking wounded right now. We are
0:44:16 > 0:44:19told they are not really getting involved in coalition talks unless
0:44:19 > 0:44:21they are needed.Thank goodness you had an umbrella! Thank you for
0:44:21 > 0:44:25joining us.
0:44:25 > 0:44:28Here in the studio is Matthew Goodwin, from the Royal Institute
0:44:28 > 0:44:31of International Affairs, Chatham House.
0:44:31 > 0:44:35Why aren't these results so extraordinary?You might say this is
0:44:35 > 0:44:38just classic Italian politics, Berlusconi is back, populists
0:44:38 > 0:44:43running right that this tells us much about where Europe is, centre
0:44:43 > 0:44:47left with another disastrous election. Following real losses for
0:44:47 > 0:44:51social Democrats in Germany, the Netherlands, France. On the other
0:44:51 > 0:44:58hand, a sharp turn to the right with Lega effectively replacing
0:44:58 > 0:45:03Berlusconi as the number-1 party on the right. A prolonged negotiation
0:45:03 > 0:45:06period and fragmentation in Italy like we saw after the elections in
0:45:06 > 0:45:10the Netherlands and in Germany where it took five months to sign the
0:45:10 > 0:45:15grand coalition.What about the rise of the Five Star Movement and their
0:45:15 > 0:45:18dominance?They had a good election come up to their vote from the last
0:45:18 > 0:45:20election. There are interesting, they were only founded a few years
0:45:20 > 0:45:26ago by a comedian.Beppe Grillo.It is ludicrous to say this is the
0:45:26 > 0:45:30status quo and this is OK for Europe, this is a shock. For a party
0:45:30 > 0:45:36to take over 30% from the vote of nowhere and to draw votes from young
0:45:36 > 0:45:40people, this is interesting. In the south of Italy, which was hit by the
0:45:40 > 0:45:43refugee crisis and economic stagnation, Five Star Movement are
0:45:43 > 0:45:48doing well. April we won't get into coalition comet will be a right wing
0:45:48 > 0:45:52coalition. -- we don't think.Their leader won't become Prime Minister?
0:45:52 > 0:45:58I don't think Luigi Di Maio will but this is awkward that a Populist
0:45:58 > 0:46:01party finished in first place, they have symbolically won this election,
0:46:01 > 0:46:05even if it might not enter into coalition.You could argue a manual
0:46:05 > 0:46:10Macron's party was a new party of the centre and it march to victory
0:46:10 > 0:46:14in elections for the presidency and in government -- that Emmanuel
0:46:14 > 0:46:18Macron.It came out of nowhere almost within a year, set up a party
0:46:18 > 0:46:24and took over the French...He is neither the far right nor the left.
0:46:24 > 0:46:28Use classic mainstream. Stepped outside of the traditional party
0:46:28 > 0:46:32structures and won the Austrian elections. In Europe, there is
0:46:32 > 0:46:35historic change that we have not seen before. The 80s and 90s, we
0:46:35 > 0:46:39would not talk about things like this.We haven't reached a peak
0:46:39 > 0:46:44populism in that case?I have a particular line, we are much closer
0:46:44 > 0:46:50to the beginning of a new period of volatility than the end. We have
0:46:50 > 0:46:55underestimated the appeal and potency of what these parties are
0:46:55 > 0:46:57talking about. Antiestablishment but also anchored in specific issues
0:46:57 > 0:47:03like immigration and the refugee crisis.Is Italy in a special
0:47:03 > 0:47:06situation? It has a history of coalition governments, they have
0:47:06 > 0:47:11never been that stable in the post-war period. But because of the
0:47:11 > 0:47:16migration issue which has hit Italy very hard. Economically, they have
0:47:16 > 0:47:19stagnated for ever.The refugee crisis hit everybody pretty hard.
0:47:19 > 0:47:23They were one of the front lines. After it effectively went through
0:47:23 > 0:47:28central and eastern Europe and Austria attention turned to Italy
0:47:28 > 0:47:32when the Balkan route closed down. The identity issue in Europe is
0:47:32 > 0:47:38cutting directly across the old traditional electorates. We have
0:47:38 > 0:47:42seen it in Brexit. 140 Labour MPs who represent pro Leave seats, this
0:47:42 > 0:47:45will be difficult for the mainstream but it is difficult for social
0:47:45 > 0:47:49Democrats.Do you accept that social Democratic parties and centre-left
0:47:49 > 0:47:54parties across Europe are having a difficult time?I do and they are
0:47:54 > 0:47:58having that difficult time in the United States. What is this in
0:47:58 > 0:48:02response to? I think it's in response to eight years of austerity
0:48:02 > 0:48:05and almost ten years of posterity where young people haven't been able
0:48:05 > 0:48:10to get on the housing ladder, and in Italy there is a rigid employment
0:48:10 > 0:48:14structures, it is done on the basis of recommendations, who you know. It
0:48:14 > 0:48:18doesn't matter if you have a music degree.Why are they not seeing the
0:48:18 > 0:48:26left as an answer?They have been in Matteo Renzi. -- in power with. They
0:48:26 > 0:48:30want quick, easy solutions to difficult and complex problems. The
0:48:30 > 0:48:33traditional parties say it is difficult but give me five years and
0:48:33 > 0:48:39I will do my best, people's patience is running thin and people think,
0:48:39 > 0:48:44five years here, five years there and I am then old. At my age, my
0:48:44 > 0:48:49parents had a house and a car and a stable job and a family and I can't
0:48:49 > 0:48:52do any of those.At the politics of austerity to blame?I am impressed
0:48:52 > 0:48:57by Mary's Italian accent. I don't think they are. And not in Italy.
0:48:57 > 0:49:04What is happening in Italy is that in the South, in the FT today, 55%
0:49:04 > 0:49:09of under 25-year-olds are unemployed. 600,000 people have
0:49:09 > 0:49:15cross the Mediterranean.There are populists across Europe.In Italy,
0:49:15 > 0:49:18these are extraordinarily profound events. We are starting to see this
0:49:18 > 0:49:23played out. When I was working in Italy 30 years ago, lived in Rome
0:49:23 > 0:49:28for a year there were migrants crossing the Mediterranean then. We
0:49:28 > 0:49:33had Romani migrants living in a camp next to where I lived. We had people
0:49:33 > 0:49:39in the Central Station Square from Eritrea, Ethiopia, as it was then.
0:49:39 > 0:49:43Italy has long had migration, long been on the front line of the
0:49:43 > 0:49:47migration issue. But what happened now is that there has been a
0:49:47 > 0:49:51stagnation, rise in the cost of living and a feeling that the old
0:49:51 > 0:49:55traditional parties have not managed to do that. Italy has been very
0:49:55 > 0:49:59stable. It had right wing governments from basically post-war
0:49:59 > 0:50:02right until the fall of the Berlin Wall.I am not sure it has been
0:50:02 > 0:50:06stable! LAUGHTER That could be a description of
0:50:06 > 0:50:15stability. Have we got time to talk about Germany briefly? The ADL had a
0:50:15 > 0:50:19strong showing for the first time at this coalition has now been done,
0:50:19 > 0:50:24the deal. Between the SPD, the left-wing party and the CDU. How big
0:50:24 > 0:50:29a problem there is the rise of the AFD?Unprecedented political change.
0:50:29 > 0:50:35They had its worst result since 1933. They fell to 15% in the polls,
0:50:35 > 0:50:39if replicated at an election would be the worst result since the 1880s.
0:50:39 > 0:50:44Populism was never supposed to flourish because of the legacy of...
0:50:44 > 0:50:49The constitution was supposed to stop it.It is also a country that
0:50:49 > 0:50:52has historically low unemployment and stable growing economy, as has
0:50:52 > 0:50:57the Austrians, the Dutch, the Swiss. Still, national populists have done
0:50:57 > 0:51:03well because voters do not perceive that Europe is responding to the
0:51:03 > 0:51:06refugee issue in the right way. You cannot compare immigration in the
0:51:06 > 0:51:1180s and 90s to what Europe has seen over the last two years, this is
0:51:11 > 0:51:13unprecedented demographic change. Thank you.
0:51:13 > 0:51:16There has been plenty of debate over the years with regards to altering
0:51:16 > 0:51:17the structure of the House of Lords.
0:51:17 > 0:51:20Should it be updated to make it more representative
0:51:20 > 0:51:21or maintain its current workings?
0:51:21 > 0:51:23Journalist and author Richard Askwith says we should
0:51:23 > 0:51:25abolish the House of Lords and replace it with a citizens'
0:51:25 > 0:51:26chamber of 400 people.
0:51:26 > 0:51:34Here's his Soapbox.
0:51:45 > 0:51:48Five weeks ago, after years of ducking the issue,
0:51:48 > 0:51:52MPs finally voted to repair the crumbling building they work in.
0:51:52 > 0:51:55Sadly, they're still in denial about a bigger problem.
0:51:55 > 0:51:59Parliament itself needs an overhaul.
0:51:59 > 0:52:02What if we tried to fix this?
0:52:02 > 0:52:04What would we do, given the chance, to remake
0:52:04 > 0:52:08Parliament for today's world?
0:52:08 > 0:52:09Here's my suggestion.
0:52:09 > 0:52:11We expel the current occupants of the House of Lords
0:52:11 > 0:52:14and we give their chamber to the people.
0:52:15 > 0:52:16I'm not talking about direct democracy.
0:52:16 > 0:52:21Obviously, we can't put everything to a referendum.
0:52:21 > 0:52:22What I'm proposing is a people's chamber that is a small,
0:52:22 > 0:52:25representative sample of the population as a whole with,
0:52:25 > 0:52:27say, 400 members, conscripted at random from the electoral roll,
0:52:27 > 0:52:33just as jurors are.
0:52:33 > 0:52:36Imagine it - everyone who votes is eligible for selection by law
0:52:36 > 0:52:39to serve in the chamber for a fixed term.
0:52:39 > 0:52:43Service is compulsory, well-paid and prestigious.
0:52:43 > 0:52:47The people's peers can wear ermine and use titles if they want.
0:52:47 > 0:52:52The financial rewards are comparable to a decent sized lottery win.
0:52:52 > 0:52:54The chamber's functions stay the same - scrutiny, revision,
0:52:54 > 0:52:57endorsement, occasional delay.
0:52:57 > 0:52:59It would all take a bit of organising.
0:52:59 > 0:53:02So did National Service and we managed that.
0:53:02 > 0:53:04Some people might resent the call up.
0:53:04 > 0:53:07If so, they could apply for exemption, but the process
0:53:07 > 0:53:10would be public so, with a bit of luck, most people would prefer
0:53:10 > 0:53:14to do their civic duty than risk the stigma of dodging it.
0:53:14 > 0:53:17The overall cost might be higher than the current House of Lords
0:53:17 > 0:53:18but it would be worth it.
0:53:18 > 0:53:21The prize would be a representative second chamber whose legitimacy
0:53:21 > 0:53:24was beyond question - just as democratic as the House
0:53:24 > 0:53:30of Commons but in a different way.
0:53:30 > 0:53:33We're used to thinking of Lords reform as a marginal issue.
0:53:33 > 0:53:34We need to wake up.
0:53:34 > 0:53:37There is a rising tide of populism in western politics,
0:53:37 > 0:53:39a clamour for direct democracy, that poses a real threat
0:53:39 > 0:53:42to representative democracy.
0:53:42 > 0:53:45Parliament needs defending, but how do we defend the upper
0:53:45 > 0:53:49chamber that we have now?
0:53:49 > 0:53:52It's folly to ignore populism, it's folly to yield to it.
0:53:52 > 0:53:54A people's chamber offers a radical but viable alternative,
0:53:54 > 0:53:56channelling the public's hunger for more say in how they're
0:53:56 > 0:54:00governed, yet boosting the legitimacy of Parliament.
0:54:00 > 0:54:02Fantasy?
0:54:02 > 0:54:03Perhaps.
0:54:03 > 0:54:04But it's more realistic than thinking we can
0:54:04 > 0:54:11carry on as we are.
0:54:11 > 0:54:14And Richard Askwith joins me now.
0:54:16 > 0:54:21It is a fantasy, really, isn't it? A lovely idea, people's chamber but
0:54:21 > 0:54:26there's no chance it would ever come to fruition.Who knows. We have
0:54:26 > 0:54:32citizen's assemblies that have worked very successfully in Iceland,
0:54:32 > 0:54:36and Ireland. It is not a new idea. Selecting people at random is, from
0:54:36 > 0:54:41ancient Athens and on with it worked.
0:54:41 > 0:54:44You said it is unlikely but if you're looking at it from inside
0:54:44 > 0:54:47Westminster that is true. From outside Westminster it is slightly
0:54:47 > 0:54:50different. We have this widespread feeling among a lot of people that
0:54:50 > 0:54:55Parliament may be doesn't speak for everyone, just the establishment.
0:54:55 > 0:54:59That a big problem and danger for MPs. Respect for MPs and trust in
0:54:59 > 0:55:03MPs is dangerously and probably all fairly low at the moment. I don't
0:55:03 > 0:55:06think you can necessarily just say we don't need to do anything about
0:55:06 > 0:55:12it.It may be that we need to do something about it. Various attempts
0:55:12 > 0:55:15have been tried, as you know. Parliament hasn't got very far with
0:55:15 > 0:55:18reforming the House of Lords. But your comparison to jury service, how
0:55:18 > 0:55:21do you think it compares in that same way? You are talking about
0:55:21 > 0:55:27people sitting in a chamber for 4-5 years.We need to have some decent
0:55:27 > 0:55:31financial rewards otherwise some people might resent it.
0:55:31 > 0:55:35As I said, we managed National Service. You can conscript people.
0:55:35 > 0:55:40The great thing about jury service, no one questions its legitimacy. If
0:55:40 > 0:55:44you find yourself in front of God, you don't say this system is rigged,
0:55:44 > 0:55:50you say this is transparently fair -- in front of court.Would it be
0:55:50 > 0:55:54more legitimate, Mary, do have a people's Parliament in that sense,
0:55:54 > 0:55:58people chosen at random in the way they are selected for jury service?
0:55:58 > 0:56:03As opposed to unelected Lords and ladies.I don't want to see
0:56:03 > 0:56:06unelected Lords and ladies. We got rid of a substantial number of
0:56:06 > 0:56:11hereditary peers, the last Labour government. It has stagnated. We
0:56:11 > 0:56:14have almost 800 peers and the Prime Minister seems intent of putting
0:56:14 > 0:56:22more in and getting rid of the number of MPs which is backward
0:56:22 > 0:56:25steps. The jury service is a two-week commitment in your own town
0:56:25 > 0:56:27at National Service is a one-year commitment at the start of your
0:56:27 > 0:56:29career. Asking people to leave their families, their homes and their
0:56:29 > 0:56:32cities to come down to Westminster for a four or five year term is
0:56:32 > 0:56:38problematic. We have introduced people's peers, they can put
0:56:38 > 0:56:41themselves forward if they want to. They tend to be people who are at
0:56:41 > 0:56:47its stage, late stage career. We have an issue about who comes in,
0:56:47 > 0:56:51who is represented. But I'm not sure that this is the answer.Are there
0:56:51 > 0:56:56any elements of this idea that you would take on board?I have read
0:56:56 > 0:57:01Richard's book. It's not as crazy as it sounds.Well, I didn't say it was
0:57:01 > 0:57:06crazy, just all likely! LAUGHTER I think there are a number of issues
0:57:06 > 0:57:10with it.-- just unlikely.It would be expensive and Richard has
0:57:10 > 0:57:17acknowledged that. Lottery salaries to get people on board.What sort of
0:57:17 > 0:57:24lottery!Mary is looking more interested in this.
0:57:24 > 0:57:28One of the things that has impressed me about the House of Lords of I
0:57:28 > 0:57:32became an MP last year, the quality of expertise. Sir George Young, Lord
0:57:32 > 0:57:37Young, said to me in a meeting of new MPs he said, when you are a
0:57:37 > 0:57:40minister in the Commons you think, with the civil service supports you
0:57:40 > 0:57:43are probably the best informed person in the room. When you go to
0:57:43 > 0:57:47the doors, you have five former secretaries of State, former head of
0:57:47 > 0:57:51the civil service, people who have run businesses, charities. -- go to
0:57:51 > 0:57:55the Lords. You have real knowledge. That level of scrutiny is so
0:57:55 > 0:57:59important to the effective running of government. In the book you say
0:57:59 > 0:58:04you could give people training but I think a few months of training
0:58:04 > 0:58:07versus a lifetime of experience just doesn't add up.Thank you for coming
0:58:07 > 0:58:08in.
0:58:08 > 0:58:12There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
0:58:12 > 0:58:14The question was what book - according to the Times -
0:58:14 > 0:58:17did Philip Hammond originally pick as his favourite childhood read
0:58:17 > 0:58:19before Downing Street officials advised him to reconsider?
0:58:19 > 0:58:20Was that...
0:58:20 > 0:58:21A - The Intelligent Investor by Benjamin Graham?
0:58:21 > 0:58:22A - The Intelligent Investor by Benjamin Graham?
0:58:22 > 0:58:24B - Nineteen Eighty Four by George Orwell?
0:58:24 > 0:58:26C - How to Win Friends And Influence People by Dale Carnegie?
0:58:26 > 0:58:28Or D - The Chancellors by Roy Jenkins?
0:58:28 > 0:58:30So, Mary and Alex, what's the correct answer?
0:58:30 > 0:58:32Nineteen Eighty Four - according to The Times.
0:58:32 > 0:58:32I according to The Times.
0:58:32 > 0:58:33I wonder according to The Times.
0:58:33 > 0:58:33I wonder how according to The Times.
0:58:33 > 0:58:33I wonder how old according to The Times.
0:58:33 > 0:58:34I wonder how old he according to The Times.
0:58:34 > 0:58:34I wonder how old he was according to The Times.
0:58:34 > 0:58:35I wonder how old he was when according to The Times.
0:58:35 > 0:58:35I wonder how old he was when he according to The Times.
0:58:35 > 0:58:35I wonder how old he was when he did according to The Times.
0:58:35 > 0:58:36I wonder how old he was when he did read 1984! Your favourite childhood
0:58:36 > 0:58:43books?I can't think.Thank you. Actually I can't think of anything
0:58:43 > 0:58:46off the back of that but I'm glad Philip Hammond advised and updated
0:58:46 > 0:58:46his book.
0:58:46 > 0:58:47That's all for today.
0:58:47 > 0:58:51Thanks to our guests.
0:58:51 > 0:58:54I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big
0:58:54 > 0:58:55political stories of the day.
0:58:55 > 0:58:56Do join me then.
0:58:56 > 0:59:01Bye-bye.