0:00:36 > 0:00:39Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42As police investigate the possible poisoning of a former Russian spy,
0:00:42 > 0:00:44one MP says it "bears all the hallmarks
0:00:44 > 0:00:45of a Russian attack".
0:00:45 > 0:00:53We'll bring you the latest on this developing story.
0:00:53 > 0:00:55There are already statues of Margaret Thatcher in Westminster,
0:00:55 > 0:00:57but none in prime position in Parliament Square -
0:00:57 > 0:01:01is it because, as one MP claims, she was a woman?
0:01:01 > 0:01:04Should schools have separate uniforms for boys and girls?
0:01:04 > 0:01:10We'll be debating gender-neutral uniforms.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13And as the Chinese President says he wants to stay in office for,
0:01:13 > 0:01:15well, as long as possible, we'll be looking at how other
0:01:15 > 0:01:23leaders have managed to have hang on to power.
0:01:23 > 0:01:26All that in the next hour and, and hanging on for the whole
0:01:26 > 0:01:28of the programme today, it's the Conservative MP
0:01:28 > 0:01:30and former Northern Ireland secretary Theresa Villiers.
0:01:30 > 0:01:31At least I hope so.
0:01:31 > 0:01:33Welcome to the show.
0:01:33 > 0:01:35Hello.
0:01:35 > 0:01:37First today, police are investigating
0:01:37 > 0:01:40the collapse of Sergei Skripal, a former Russian agent convicted
0:01:40 > 0:01:42of spying for Britain, who was found unconscious on a bench
0:01:42 > 0:01:47at a shopping centre on Sunday.
0:01:47 > 0:01:51Investigators are trying to identify what substance left the Russian,
0:01:51 > 0:01:54who was granted refuge in the UK in 2010 under a "spy swap",
0:01:54 > 0:01:56and a woman understood to be his daughter, critically
0:01:56 > 0:01:57ill in hospital.
0:01:57 > 0:01:59The pair had no visible injuries, and a number of locations
0:01:59 > 0:02:02in the city centre were cordoned off, while teams in protective
0:02:02 > 0:02:06gear have used hoses to decontaminate the street.
0:02:06 > 0:02:08The possibility of an unexplained substance
0:02:08 > 0:02:10being involved has drawn comparisons with the 2006 poisoning
0:02:10 > 0:02:16of the Russian dissident Alexander Litvinenko.
0:02:16 > 0:02:18Well, to find out more, let's speak to our correspondent Leila Nathoo,
0:02:18 > 0:02:21she's in Salisbury.
0:02:24 > 0:02:28What's the latest that we know about Sergei Skripal and the woman that
0:02:28 > 0:02:32was with him?
0:02:32 > 0:02:36We now understand that the woman who was with Sergei Skripal when they
0:02:36 > 0:02:41collapsed just behind me on that bench that is currently covered by a
0:02:41 > 0:02:45tent is in fact his daughter, Yulia
0:02:45 > 0:02:46bench that is currently covered by a tent is in fact his daughter, Yulia.
0:02:46 > 0:02:50Police have so far refused to confirm the identities of the two,
0:02:50 > 0:02:53describing them and me as a 66-year-old man and 33-year-old
0:02:53 > 0:02:58woman. We now know it is Sergei Skripal and his daughter who are
0:02:58 > 0:03:04still in a critical condition in hospital. Some background on Yulia
0:03:04 > 0:03:09she moved to the UK with Sergei Skripal in 2010 when he was brought
0:03:09 > 0:03:15over to the UK in that swap. She then moved back to Moscow but it is
0:03:15 > 0:03:19understood she visited her father regularly in Salisbury in recent
0:03:19 > 0:03:22years and she had recently left Moscow as well to come here to visit
0:03:22 > 0:03:27him. She also had a brother who it is understood died in Saint
0:03:27 > 0:03:33Petersburg last year. The family now believe that that is suspicious. The
0:03:33 > 0:03:38family are at pains to say they do not believe Sergei Skripal was a spy
0:03:38 > 0:03:45for MI6 as the Russians alleged and will be charges he was imprisoned on
0:03:45 > 0:03:49in 2006. Police are so far not entertaining any of those strands of
0:03:49 > 0:03:52enquiry, they are not engaging with that at all, they are simply saying
0:03:52 > 0:03:55they are investigating what happened here. They are looking into how the
0:03:55 > 0:04:00two became unconscious. We understand they are examining some
0:04:00 > 0:04:05CCTV footage that was retrieved from nearby that shows a man and a woman
0:04:05 > 0:04:10walking just where I am now. They are trying to piece together the
0:04:10 > 0:04:13lead up, really, to the couple being found unconscious.
0:04:14 > 0:04:19Have you any sense from the police or doctors when we can expect the
0:04:19 > 0:04:25results of what the substance was that killed them?
0:04:25 > 0:04:28No, not as yet. They are still describing the substance as unknown.
0:04:28 > 0:04:34Yes.They are at pains to say there is no risk to the public now. They
0:04:34 > 0:04:38do not believe there is any risk. We have confirmation that a couple of
0:04:38 > 0:04:43police officers had been admitted to hospital with minor symptoms. They
0:04:43 > 0:04:46have now been discharged and it's understood only one emergency
0:04:46 > 0:04:51service personnel is now still in hospital. But with minor symptoms.
0:04:51 > 0:04:56Some reported to be itchy eyes or queasiness. No wider risk to the
0:04:56 > 0:05:01public. The results of the toxicologist test will be key to the
0:05:01 > 0:05:05inquiry to ascertain exactly what they took and how it might have been
0:05:05 > 0:05:11ingested or inhaled. An Italian chain restaurant on the high street
0:05:11 > 0:05:16view 100 metres away has been cordoned off and a nearby pub has
0:05:16 > 0:05:19too. They are trying to piece together the last movements before
0:05:19 > 0:05:23the couple was found slumped and almost comatose according to
0:05:23 > 0:05:28eyewitnesses, just a few metres behind me.Thank you. I must correct
0:05:28 > 0:05:32the mistake I just made, they are critically ill at the moment, they
0:05:32 > 0:05:34haven't... They are not yet dead.
0:05:34 > 0:05:36We're joined now by BBC Newsnight's Diplomatic Editor Mark
0:05:36 > 0:05:39Urban, and the Labour MP Chris Bryant.
0:05:39 > 0:05:44Welcome. What is your sense of what has happened, Mark?
0:05:44 > 0:05:49It is hard to go beyond those sketchy outlines. Of course, I think
0:05:49 > 0:05:53one should always hesitate to rush to judgment in a case like this
0:05:53 > 0:05:56until clearly there is some clear evidence from the hospital about
0:05:56 > 0:05:59what substance may have bought those two people to this state. One thing
0:05:59 > 0:06:05we can know quite clearly is that there is form. We know about
0:06:05 > 0:06:10Alexander Litvinenko and we know about a case that we exposed on
0:06:10 > 0:06:14Newsnight more than ten years ago when MI5 SSA hit team was sent to
0:06:14 > 0:06:19the UK to kill Boris borrows ski.
0:06:19 > 0:06:23The Russian millionaire was dead. We also know about the mysterious
0:06:23 > 0:06:29poisoning about a man in Weybridge. There is a lot of circumstantial
0:06:29 > 0:06:37evidence. There is some kind of policy practice of attacking and
0:06:37 > 0:06:42poisoning people in ex-aisle in order to send a message.Do you
0:06:42 > 0:06:46think people are rushing to judgment in terms of talking about hostile
0:06:46 > 0:06:50intent, as the Defence Secretary, Gavin Williamson, has said, before
0:06:50 > 0:06:54we actually know what has happened? I don't know he said that in
0:06:54 > 0:06:57relation to this, he said that in relation to other...He said that
0:06:57 > 0:07:02yesterday.In relation to this? I think he was referring to something
0:07:02 > 0:07:05different.He said that more broadly.Mark is right to say we
0:07:05 > 0:07:09need to look at the wider picture of Russian engagement. It is true that
0:07:09 > 0:07:14Vladimir Putin's personal record is to regularly resort to excessive
0:07:14 > 0:07:20violence, think of Aslan, the Moscow theatre siege, Georgia, Ukraine, chi
0:07:20 > 0:07:27Crimea. And large numbers of journalists. Working for a British
0:07:27 > 0:07:31bank, he was murdered in Russia. It is a long list. You are absolutely
0:07:31 > 0:07:37right, we shouldn't judge -- jump to conclusions but when we do
0:07:37 > 0:07:39investigate, we investigate thoroughly. My anxiety is that over
0:07:39 > 0:07:44the last few years, Theresa May and David Cameron, both as Prime
0:07:44 > 0:07:49Minister, were culpable in not allowing sufficient investigation.
0:07:49 > 0:07:52Theresa May, after Alexander Litvinenko, wrote saying she refused
0:07:52 > 0:07:57to have an inquiry because she said she thought the Kremlin might
0:07:57 > 0:08:00misunderstand that. I think we have been allowing the Russians to get
0:08:00 > 0:08:04away with murder on our soil too frequently recently. We need to put
0:08:04 > 0:08:12a stop to it.It's in our national security interests. What do you say
0:08:12 > 0:08:15to that, has there been a lack of grip on behalf of the British to
0:08:15 > 0:08:18investigate?Absolutely not. All of these cases have been investigated
0:08:18 > 0:08:24by the police. They haven't. As you acknowledge, there was a full-scale
0:08:24 > 0:08:27enquiry into the death of Alexander Litvinenko.It was way too late and
0:08:27 > 0:08:32what did we do?Nothing. It is right not to rush to judgment, the police
0:08:32 > 0:08:37will be approaching this with an open mind. If it turns out there is
0:08:37 > 0:08:41a connection with the Russian state, obviously, that would be wholly
0:08:41 > 0:08:45unacceptable and would have a major, damaging effect on the relations
0:08:45 > 0:08:49between UK and Russia.Russia say they have no information about this
0:08:49 > 0:08:54and that the Kremlin is willing to cooperate. But on the basis of you
0:08:54 > 0:08:57accusing previous governments of not quite doing enough, let's have a
0:08:57 > 0:08:59listen to the Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott.
0:08:59 > 0:09:03I will be writing to Amber Rudd to say that if it does prove to be
0:09:03 > 0:09:06the case that the Russian state is involved in this latest death,
0:09:06 > 0:09:09what assurances can she give, both about the rigour
0:09:09 > 0:09:12of the investigation and where we go from here?
0:09:12 > 0:09:16I don't like defaulting to a Red Menace analysis
0:09:16 > 0:09:21but we can't allow London and the Home Counties to become
0:09:21 > 0:09:27a kind of killing field.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31That's Diane Abbott. Mark, what do you make of the Russian response?
0:09:31 > 0:09:34It's self-evident, if they had any involvement, they are not going to
0:09:34 > 0:09:41admit it. The key thing here that we can see from the government is that
0:09:41 > 0:09:45this is a fiendishly difficult issue for them. We know, in the past, that
0:09:45 > 0:09:48both in the case of Alexander Litvinenko and in the case I
0:09:48 > 0:09:53mentioned before this attempt to kill Boris Berezovsky, the official
0:09:53 > 0:09:55assessment in the security service just a couple of buildings down
0:09:55 > 0:10:01Millbank here was that this was Russian state action. That kind of
0:10:01 > 0:10:03assessment remains highly classified, people in Whitehall were
0:10:03 > 0:10:07very annoyed with us when we publicised it in the case of the
0:10:07 > 0:10:13Boris Berezovsky thing. The reason, of course, once you bring them out
0:10:13 > 0:10:15into the open, it demands action and a response. That is an extremely
0:10:15 > 0:10:22difficult thing to do. By their nature, except when you something as
0:10:22 > 0:10:27esoteric as polonium, where you can then give a forensic line, a
0:10:27 > 0:10:30forensic chain back to a Russian government establishment, they are
0:10:30 > 0:10:34deniable. It is self-evident that nobody is going to claim such an
0:10:34 > 0:10:37attack if indeed that's what's happened in Salisbury because the
0:10:37 > 0:10:42purpose of it is to send a message. What action could the British
0:10:42 > 0:10:46government take? How do you intensify pressure on Russia, which,
0:10:46 > 0:10:50arguably, has led to the Russian response being tougher? They have
0:10:50 > 0:10:56stiffened their resolve. Claims of being humiliated by Britain.What
0:10:56 > 0:10:59would you suggest? I will go back one step and then answer your
0:10:59 > 0:11:03question. It's not just the private security view, it was also the
0:11:03 > 0:11:08public inquiry.The judge.The judge came to the conclusion that it was
0:11:08 > 0:11:10state sanctioned and personally sanctioned by President Putin. What
0:11:10 > 0:11:16did we do? Theresa May -- Theresa May shrugged her shoulders. People
0:11:16 > 0:11:21like Vladimir Putin learned that impunity, we can do what we want.
0:11:21 > 0:11:25What would you do?One of the things we could have done and I argue for a
0:11:25 > 0:11:31long time, we should have the same laws which applies in the United
0:11:31 > 0:11:34States of America and Canada and the Netherlands and various other
0:11:34 > 0:11:37countries. By simply don't understand why Cameron and Theresa
0:11:37 > 0:11:42May repeatedly have refused to intimate that in the UK. They have
0:11:42 > 0:11:45another chance coming up in the next few weeks -- initiate that in the
0:11:45 > 0:11:50UK. We need a full public inquiry as to what happened in this particular
0:11:50 > 0:11:55circumstance. The reason I spoke over you, Theresa
0:11:55 > 0:11:56circumstance. The reason I spoke over you, Theresa, there haven't
0:11:56 > 0:12:00been full investigations in some cases. I simply don't believe that
0:12:00 > 0:12:06all of these 13 Russians who are opponents of Putin who died in this
0:12:06 > 0:12:08country have personally decided to commit suicide, I just don't believe
0:12:08 > 0:12:12that.Are you saying the police are under pressure not to investigate
0:12:12 > 0:12:17deaths on our streets?Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.I cannot believe that for
0:12:17 > 0:12:20a moment, that is the stuff of conspiracy theories. We have some of
0:12:20 > 0:12:24the most effective policing the world. They will investigate every
0:12:24 > 0:12:29case, including today's shopping events. I cannot believe that wider
0:12:29 > 0:12:32international considerations is ever going to get in the wake of the
0:12:32 > 0:12:35police doing their job thoroughly -- today's shocking events.The
0:12:35 > 0:12:39information I have from security staff is that quite often what
0:12:39 > 0:12:43happens in some of these cases is that the first view is taken very,
0:12:43 > 0:12:50very quickly. Suicide is thought as a convenient means of avoiding...
0:12:50 > 0:12:56The dangers of imperilling the diplomatic situation.What happens
0:12:56 > 0:13:02now in terms of the investigation?
0:13:02 > 0:13:07You work a case like this from numerous angles, don't you? If, as
0:13:07 > 0:13:11we believe, his daughter came over, there were family reasons for her to
0:13:11 > 0:13:15come over to be with her dad last week. You analyse things like CCTV,
0:13:15 > 0:13:21her travel plans, is there any evidence she was followed? If the
0:13:21 > 0:13:25assumption now is shifting towards, was some kind of poison administered
0:13:25 > 0:13:30in a restaurant or nearby in the park where they fell ill, CCTV
0:13:30 > 0:13:35analysis once again, who is visible? Does somebody arouse suspicion as
0:13:35 > 0:13:39somebody who approach them or very close to them? There are so many
0:13:39 > 0:13:44different lines of enquiry. Underlying it all, the fight to save
0:13:44 > 0:13:48their lives in hospital and establish what it is that has made
0:13:48 > 0:13:52them so ill.You won't be surprised by the fact that the Russians are
0:13:52 > 0:13:56criticising the coverage here in the UK. I presume they will pretty much
0:13:56 > 0:14:01stick to those lines?
0:14:01 > 0:14:06Inevitably. In a sense, the moment, you can say why not? There is no
0:14:06 > 0:14:11evidence of a state attempt to poison Sergei Skripal and his
0:14:11 > 0:14:15daughter, as yet. The problem is, from a Russian point of view and a
0:14:15 > 0:14:20messaging point of view, is that they've got form.It's just worth,
0:14:20 > 0:14:26you know, if somebody was
0:14:26 > 0:14:29you know, if somebody was involved, we won't be able to... He got back
0:14:29 > 0:14:34to Russia very quickly, the murder of Alexander Litvinenko. The Russian
0:14:34 > 0:14:37law refuses to allow extradition of Russian citizens. Russian state law
0:14:37 > 0:14:42says that there is impunity for any Russian operative murdering somebody
0:14:42 > 0:14:46in another country considered to be a traitor to Russia -- the alleged
0:14:46 > 0:14:51murder of. It is clear. It is a publicly declared intent to do this.
0:14:51 > 0:14:55If you look around the world it is a very long list at the moment.
0:14:55 > 0:15:00President Putin wanted to press the reset button with Putin... It didn't
0:15:00 > 0:15:03work, he got nothing out of it. David Cameron wanted to do the same,
0:15:03 > 0:15:06wanted more trade with Russia and it didn't work. We need to walk into
0:15:06 > 0:15:11this with our eyes wide open.The Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson will
0:15:11 > 0:15:18answer an urgent question on this in the comments. Thank you.
0:15:24 > 0:15:26Don't worry - if you were panicking
0:15:26 > 0:15:28because you thought we'd forgotten about Brexit, or perhaps
0:15:28 > 0:15:30were breathing a sigh of relief, it's all still rumbling on,
0:15:30 > 0:15:33And today one of Brexit's biggest critics - the MEP Guy Verhofstadt,
0:15:33 > 0:15:36who is EU Parliament's chief Brexit negotiator - is meeting
0:15:36 > 0:15:37David Davis in Downing Street.
0:15:37 > 0:15:40Last week Mr Verhofstadt said a new EU-UK relationship couldn't be
0:15:40 > 0:15:42achieved by "putting a few extra cherries on the Brexit cake".
0:15:42 > 0:15:45After her Mansion House speech he said he hoped that Theresa May
0:15:45 > 0:15:47had put "serious proposals in the post".
0:15:47 > 0:15:52No doubt David Davis will be enjoying playing host.
0:15:52 > 0:15:54Let's talk now to our deputy political
0:15:54 > 0:15:58editor John Pienaar.
0:15:58 > 0:16:02Guy Verhofstadt was not impressed with the speech but we haven't had
0:16:02 > 0:16:11amazing amount of reaction.He was the first out of the race. He has
0:16:11 > 0:16:15been quite dismissive about what she had to say, about picking and
0:16:15 > 0:16:22choosing cherries and all a strict. I doubt it is going to be much more
0:16:22 > 0:16:25accommodating in this meeting in Downing Street. We will be hearing
0:16:25 > 0:16:29from him and David Davis, the Brexit secretary, this afternoon, who I
0:16:29 > 0:16:35imagine we'll be doing what he does, which is to argue that the lights
0:16:35 > 0:16:39are going to, and soon, don't take the negativism from Brussels to
0:16:39 > 0:16:42seriously.Should we be surprised by the response from someone like Guy
0:16:42 > 0:16:45Verhofstadt from the European Parliament, an arch federalist and
0:16:45 > 0:16:52very against Brexit. Is he ever going to be persuaded?Idea that we
0:16:52 > 0:16:59should be surprised by his response at all. We haven't truly begun
0:16:59 > 0:17:04negotiations on future relationship with Britain in the EU so it is not
0:17:04 > 0:17:09a time for cracks to appear on the wall, you could argue. Taking
0:17:09 > 0:17:12Theresa May is's speech at the end of last week, it was received
0:17:12 > 0:17:18reasonably well across her party. It was more like an equilibrium than
0:17:18 > 0:17:23any kind of unification because those opposing wings are not to be
0:17:23 > 0:17:26united. At either end of the seesaw they were sitting reasonably still
0:17:26 > 0:17:30for a moment, which is about as much of a triumph as Theresa May can
0:17:30 > 0:17:36expect at this stage.Do you agree? Are you sitting quiet at the moment
0:17:36 > 0:17:39to see what happens? Le Roux I think the idea of an equilibrium is quite
0:17:39 > 0:17:46a good idea.Balancing the two sites. That is not just an issue of
0:17:46 > 0:17:50the Conservative Party, it has divided the country and I think the
0:17:50 > 0:17:53Prime Minister's speech actually did a pretty good job of listening to
0:17:53 > 0:17:58both sides of the debate and coming up with a pragmatic set of proposals
0:17:58 > 0:18:03for a new relationship with Europe. It is not surprising that a hardline
0:18:03 > 0:18:07federalist like Guy Verhofstadt is not much of a fan. He has a lifetime
0:18:07 > 0:18:11in promoting political integration of the EU and is not likely to be
0:18:11 > 0:18:16sympathetic to a country which has decided to be that project.There
0:18:16 > 0:18:19has been no indication from any other quarter that Theresa May has
0:18:19 > 0:18:24significantly moved the dial. We stood with her position as it was
0:18:24 > 0:18:27with a few more words but still essentially asking for a pick and
0:18:27 > 0:18:31mix Brexit deal, the very deal that Brussels in all its forms the same
0:18:31 > 0:18:36cannot be achieved.As a former Northern Ireland Secretary of State
0:18:36 > 0:18:41you surprised that the Northern Ireland border issue is proven to be
0:18:41 > 0:18:45most intractable?Was always important that we got this right.
0:18:45 > 0:18:48The government's proposals over Somerset at two perfectly credible
0:18:48 > 0:18:54options as to how we deal with this. This doesn't have to be a big
0:18:54 > 0:18:59problem. We can, with common sense and goodwill on both sides, come up
0:18:59 > 0:19:01with a technology-based solution which keeps the board are pretty
0:19:01 > 0:19:05much as open and free flowing as it is now.Although that has been
0:19:05 > 0:19:11rejected by parts of the EU. Are you happy with the binding commitments
0:19:11 > 0:19:15that Theresa May has promised to binding state aid, that Britain will
0:19:15 > 0:19:20pay into some EU funds for associated membership of some
0:19:20 > 0:19:26systems and the legal system will remain in some way related to the
0:19:26 > 0:19:30ECJ?I can accept a deal which is broadly along those lines. Depends
0:19:30 > 0:19:34on the detail and, frankly, those kind of compromises do make me
0:19:34 > 0:19:38uncomfortable. Anything that looks as if we would be a rule taker,
0:19:38 > 0:19:41subject to EU rules without being able to vote on change them, is
0:19:41 > 0:19:46something that I find difficult, but it is possible to respect the result
0:19:46 > 0:19:52of the referendum whilst aligning to certain aspects of EU rules and
0:19:52 > 0:19:56institutions. It all depends on the detail of the outcome of the
0:19:56 > 0:19:59negotiations.Do you really think the Prime Minister's heart is in
0:19:59 > 0:20:04Brexit?I think it is. She was very clear in Parliament yesterday,
0:20:04 > 0:20:08someone asked, is Brexit whether? Chalobah simple answer, yes to drop
0:20:08 > 0:20:10She didn't the first time she was asked, of course, in the press
0:20:10 > 0:20:16conference.She is determined to deliver any partnership with Europe.
0:20:16 > 0:20:19She wants to deliver something with which the majority of people in this
0:20:19 > 0:20:24country can be comfortable whether they voted Leave Remain, a close
0:20:24 > 0:20:29relationship but one which sees us respect the referendum resultedHas
0:20:29 > 0:20:37the tone changed?It was more fulsome on Friday. There will be
0:20:37 > 0:20:41losses, hits taken, as well as the games and there will be some loss of
0:20:41 > 0:20:44access to markets and we had not heard that said in words of one
0:20:44 > 0:20:48syllable in quite that way before. Some would say it is just a question
0:20:48 > 0:20:52of common logic and political reality and as for Theresa May, she
0:20:52 > 0:20:57is never going to be an ideological committed Brexiteer like Theresa
0:20:57 > 0:21:00Villiers and she campaigned, not over enthusiastically, but campaigns
0:21:00 > 0:21:07to remain and this is not ideal place to be but she as a pragmatist.
0:21:07 > 0:21:11She is at the top of the pyramid and has to make it work if it can be
0:21:11 > 0:21:14made to work.Pienaar, thank you.
0:21:14 > 0:21:16There are already statues of Margaret Thatcher
0:21:16 > 0:21:18at Westminster - here's the statue of Britain's first
0:21:18 > 0:21:21female Prime Minister in the members' lobby just by the House
0:21:21 > 0:21:22of Commons chamber.
0:21:22 > 0:21:24But should there be one outside the building,
0:21:24 > 0:21:25in Parliament Square, alongside Churchill, Disraeli,
0:21:25 > 0:21:28Abraham Lincoln and Mahatma Ghandi?
0:21:28 > 0:21:31Well, the Scottish Lib Dem MP Jo Swinson, who says she's no
0:21:31 > 0:21:36fan of Mrs Thatcher, has argued it's time for her to be
0:21:36 > 0:21:39recognised and says there's a hint of misogyny in the vitriol
0:21:39 > 0:21:40aimed against her.
0:21:40 > 0:21:41But not everyone agrees.
0:21:41 > 0:21:43The First Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon, was asked
0:21:43 > 0:21:46about it at the weekend and replied "steady on".
0:21:46 > 0:21:49So should she be recognised, and if not why not?
0:21:49 > 0:21:57The SNP MP Alison Thewliss joins us now.
0:21:57 > 0:22:01Should there be a statue of her in Parliament Square?It is a matter
0:22:01 > 0:22:09for Westminster council but from my point of view and lots of other
0:22:09 > 0:22:13women, they could be on before Margaret Thatcher. There is a statue
0:22:13 > 0:22:16in Parliament and we need to look at the broad spectrum of woman who
0:22:16 > 0:22:21could be honoured.She was the first female Prime Minister in Britain.
0:22:21 > 0:22:25Isn't that a big deal?It is that you have to look at the wider
0:22:25 > 0:22:28context and if you were to put the structure in Glasgow it is not
0:22:28 > 0:22:30something like constituents would like, given the impact she had on
0:22:30 > 0:22:35the economy of Scotland.This is to stand alongside Churchill in
0:22:35 > 0:22:38Parliament Square. Would that not be appropriate?I think it is fine to
0:22:38 > 0:22:43say that we honour the first female Prime Minister. That is absolutely
0:22:43 > 0:22:46fine but there was a statue already in Parliament about lots of other
0:22:46 > 0:22:50woman who also need to be honoured for their part in public life.Who
0:22:50 > 0:22:55are you suggesting?There are lots of women who could be honoured. We
0:22:55 > 0:22:58are seeing a statue unveiled for Lady Barber who was a rights
0:22:58 > 0:23:05campaigner and campaigned and was one of Glasgow's first female
0:23:05 > 0:23:10councillors. Glasgow is addressing the issue of not many women being
0:23:10 > 0:23:14honoured and they publicly funded that statute it was crowd funded.
0:23:14 > 0:23:20Why are you against the idea of the first woman Prime Minister who broke
0:23:20 > 0:23:25the glass ceiling, made it to the top in politics, whatever you may
0:23:25 > 0:23:28think about what she did or didn't do for women. Should that not just
0:23:28 > 0:23:32the honoured in its own right?There was no reason why that can't be
0:23:32 > 0:23:35honoured and it is the decision for the council whether they want to go
0:23:35 > 0:23:40ahead and allow for that statue to be raised. The argument but there is
0:23:40 > 0:23:44not enough room in Parliament Square seems daft it obvious is a big
0:23:44 > 0:23:52square!Theresa Villiers?I think the reason there is not a statue in
0:23:52 > 0:23:55Parliament Square is less to do with gender and more to do with the fact
0:23:55 > 0:24:00that those statues only tend to be erected sometime after an individual
0:24:00 > 0:24:04has died and certainly many years after they have left politics but I
0:24:04 > 0:24:07think it is a good idea to commemorate our first woman Prime
0:24:07 > 0:24:12Minister with a statue in Parliament Square, not least because whilst her
0:24:12 > 0:24:17premiership was polarising aspects of it are controversial, she did
0:24:17 > 0:24:19transform the economy of this country. She turned the country
0:24:19 > 0:24:24around from what looked like terminal decline and we are all far
0:24:24 > 0:24:28better off as a result of that, so that is one of the reasons why she
0:24:28 > 0:24:32should be considered as a candidate for a statue in Parliament Square.
0:24:32 > 0:24:36But to be honoured as a woman as the first female Prime Minister, surely
0:24:36 > 0:24:42she had to do something for women and Dawn Butler, the shadow wounded
0:24:42 > 0:24:45equalities minister, said that female Tory prime ministers have
0:24:45 > 0:24:50done absolutely nothing for women. Should politicians really that if
0:24:50 > 0:24:52they haven't done anything for the rights of women, why should they be
0:24:52 > 0:24:59honoured in that way?Mrs Thatcher enabled millions of women to start
0:24:59 > 0:25:02their own business, to get jobs they wouldn't otherwise have got, to buy
0:25:02 > 0:25:05their own council house. There are a whole range of things she did for
0:25:05 > 0:25:12women in this country, so I think she is deserving of a statue.
0:25:12 > 0:25:17Alison?I would disagree with most of those points, given the impact on
0:25:17 > 0:25:21Scotland, the long-term impact on women in Scotland more when you see
0:25:21 > 0:25:24the impact of ill-health and inequality still lagging behind in
0:25:24 > 0:25:28Scotland as a result of the devastation that was wreaked in
0:25:28 > 0:25:33Scotland's industries, and I grew up in Lanarkshire. Many women were put
0:25:33 > 0:25:38on the poverty line as a result of closures. There is a long-standing
0:25:38 > 0:25:42post-industrial legacy in Scotland. Our party politics getting in the
0:25:42 > 0:25:45way here? Is it that female politicians on the left do not want
0:25:45 > 0:25:50to honour a woman politician on the right, particularly someone like
0:25:50 > 0:25:54Margaret Thatcher, who many will argue was very, very divisive? Do
0:25:54 > 0:25:59you think ideology is getting in the way? Harriet Harman, former deputy
0:25:59 > 0:26:02leader of the Labour Party, said that Margaret Thatcher was not a
0:26:02 > 0:26:07sister.There are plenty of women you could go about honouring,
0:26:07 > 0:26:16through the suffragette Warren, equal rights...What is the answer
0:26:16 > 0:26:19to the question? Do you think there is a problem with women on the left
0:26:19 > 0:26:22trying to honour somebody like Margaret Thatcher on the right?I
0:26:22 > 0:26:24think there is a question fallen on the right, about women that they
0:26:24 > 0:26:26would honour. It shouldn't be divisive. It should be about who we
0:26:26 > 0:26:35want to honoured. In Glasgow women are recognised across the board.You
0:26:35 > 0:26:41talked about her legacy in terms of women voters, or some women voters,
0:26:41 > 0:26:44but in terms of what she did for women in politics, would you accept
0:26:44 > 0:26:48that it fell short of what she could have done in terms of the ladder for
0:26:48 > 0:26:55women underneath her?We certainly made more progress in recent years
0:26:55 > 0:27:01but that has been a slow process in many democracies around the world.
0:27:01 > 0:27:03It is... Certainly the dramatic increase in the numbers of women in
0:27:03 > 0:27:09parliament...She had the power to do something much more, didn't she?
0:27:09 > 0:27:14I certainly would have very much wanted the remedy of the imbalance
0:27:14 > 0:27:17to have started more quickly in politics than it did but that
0:27:17 > 0:27:26shouldn't attract from the fact of Mrs Thatcher's huge achievements. --
0:27:26 > 0:27:29should not detract.She only promoted one other woman to the
0:27:29 > 0:27:33Cabinet. That is a pretty good record. Leave I think the problem
0:27:33 > 0:27:38was there was not enough effort to made to get more women to stand for
0:27:38 > 0:27:43Parliament so the reality is they were very few women MPs to promote.
0:27:43 > 0:27:47I would certainly acknowledge that it took the whole political class
0:27:47 > 0:27:50too long to wake up to water problem that was and I'm glad that dramatic
0:27:50 > 0:27:56progress has been made since.What about a of Nicola Sturgeon?I think
0:27:56 > 0:28:03that would be fine.Funny, that!She is Scotland's first female First
0:28:03 > 0:28:09Minister.Is Margaret Thatcher was the first Prime Minister who was a
0:28:09 > 0:28:16woman did notAnd she has a statue already. Donald Dewar was the first
0:28:16 > 0:28:18First Minister of Scotland. Nicola Sturgeon is still serving at the
0:28:18 > 0:28:21moment and you don't usually put up statues of serving politician so
0:28:21 > 0:28:23that maybe for the future.
0:28:23 > 0:28:26When you go to vote, you don't have to take anything
0:28:26 > 0:28:27with you to the polling station.
0:28:27 > 0:28:29You don't need identification, or your voter registration card,
0:28:29 > 0:28:31and they even lay on the pencils.
0:28:31 > 0:28:34But that won't be the case in some parts of England
0:28:34 > 0:28:36at local elections in May, when voters in several pilot areas
0:28:36 > 0:28:38will be asked to provide photo ID.
0:28:38 > 0:28:43Here's our reporter Greg Dawson, with more.
0:28:43 > 0:28:47You might not think Bromley looks like a place in the grip of election
0:28:47 > 0:28:51fever and you would probably be right with two months to go, the
0:28:51 > 0:28:56council is already preparing people here for something different this
0:28:56 > 0:28:59made. Ordinarily, turning up to vote at your polling station Ilbo is
0:28:59 > 0:29:02little more than giving your name and address. You don't even need a
0:29:02 > 0:29:08polling card. But in me here in Bromley, that changes. You will need
0:29:08 > 0:29:12that polling card and quite likely some photo ID, whether it is a
0:29:12 > 0:29:18passport or driving licence. As well as Bromley, four other areas,
0:29:18 > 0:29:22Woking, Gosport, Oxford and Swindon are also taking part in the pilot.
0:29:22 > 0:29:26In 2040 and the integrity of election practice was called into
0:29:26 > 0:29:30question during the election of this man as mayor of Tower Hamlets.
0:29:30 > 0:29:35Lutfur Rahman was eventually found guilty of corrupt and illegal
0:29:35 > 0:29:38practices, including voter intimidation. EPROM did a review of
0:29:38 > 0:29:42electoral fraud and the Government's idea of ID checks to stop vote
0:29:42 > 0:29:47stealing.It is just a way of identifying who you are so I can't
0:29:47 > 0:29:51see it being a problem.If it stops fraud, it is a good thing, I would
0:29:51 > 0:29:55say.It would deter me from voting and you want to get more people
0:29:55 > 0:29:58voting. You don't want to make it more difficult. I am wondering about
0:29:58 > 0:30:06my mother, who is 91. She would not have photo ID to take to the polling
0:30:06 > 0:30:09station.That is one of many concerns flagged by the Labour
0:30:09 > 0:30:15Party.When you go to vote Labour this may, take photo ID...Cat Smith
0:30:15 > 0:30:18has come along to warn people they will need more than a ballot paper
0:30:18 > 0:30:22and a pencil.This measure is a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Needing
0:30:22 > 0:30:27to take ID to the polling station risks disenfranchising far more
0:30:27 > 0:30:30people. This is not about party politics but about ensuring everyone
0:30:30 > 0:30:33who is entitled to vote in this country does not have a barrier put
0:30:33 > 0:30:40up to run from voting.The number of cases impersonating someone else at
0:30:40 > 0:30:45the polling station is vanishingly small. The Electoral Commission
0:30:45 > 0:30:50reports that in last year's election there were just 28 cases of alleged
0:30:50 > 0:30:55in-person voter fraud. But the Government is pressing ahead.It is
0:30:55 > 0:30:58a very important granted top it is not a victimless crime, either. That
0:30:58 > 0:31:03is the stealing of somebody's vote, their right to speak, so the
0:31:03 > 0:31:06Electoral Commission are fully behind these pilots because they
0:31:06 > 0:31:09think it is the right thing to do to test out the integrity of the poll
0:31:09 > 0:31:13can be improved. We use it when we might rent a house, for benefits,
0:31:13 > 0:31:16Warren Weir go abroad and travelling, all sorts of things that
0:31:16 > 0:31:21all sorts of people use ID for.The five local authorities will do all
0:31:21 > 0:31:25they can to accommodate voters without photo IDs so providing your
0:31:25 > 0:31:30proof of address with a utility bill may be accepted. A similar pilot is
0:31:30 > 0:31:36planned for 2019 before a national roll-out will be considered.
0:31:36 > 0:31:38And Cat Smith, Labour's shadow minister for voter engagement,
0:31:38 > 0:31:45you saw her in the film, joins us now.
0:31:45 > 0:31:49They vanishingly small number, hardly a problem?We can't be
0:31:49 > 0:31:53certain about the actual level of this kind of voter fraud but even if
0:31:53 > 0:31:57it's a small number, that is still wrong, we need to do something about
0:31:57 > 0:32:02it. Voter ID is asked for in many democracies in the world. We have an
0:32:02 > 0:32:05example in the United Kingdom, and in Northern Ireland people are asked
0:32:05 > 0:32:10for ID before they vote.Is there anything intrinsically wrong with
0:32:10 > 0:32:14asking for people to come with photo ID?I think what this highlights is
0:32:14 > 0:32:20just what is a serious problem but a very small problem, voter fraud in
0:32:20 > 0:32:28terms of impersonation at polling stations. Last year, almost 45
0:32:28 > 0:32:31million votes cast, 28 allegations made that somebody had impersonated
0:32:31 > 0:32:35somebody at a polling station, of that, one conviction has resulted.
0:32:35 > 0:32:40That is serious and police should be given the resources to investigate
0:32:40 > 0:32:45every single allegation of voter fraud. But to risk disenfranchising
0:32:45 > 0:32:48legitimate voters who have a right to vote is a sledgehammer to crack a
0:32:48 > 0:32:54nut.If people are given enough time to prepare, to get hold of some sort
0:32:54 > 0:32:57of photo ID, would that be the answer?I think it's very clear that
0:32:57 > 0:33:01people haven't had time to prepare and when I was out speaking to
0:33:01 > 0:33:05voters yesterday in one of the polling areas, it was very clear
0:33:05 > 0:33:09that people were very surprised, on the doorstep, they had to take IDE.
0:33:09 > 0:33:13The government and councils have been very slow in communicating,
0:33:13 > 0:33:17that change electoral law. For many people, they know they can turn up
0:33:17 > 0:33:20at the polling station, give their name and get their ballot paper and
0:33:20 > 0:33:25cast their vote for their preferred candidate. That will change. That
0:33:25 > 0:33:28does risk disenfranchised voters who don't have IDE, roughly speaking
0:33:28 > 0:33:37that is going to be around 7.5% of the electorate -- don't have IDE.
0:33:37 > 0:33:43Perhaps people don't know it is coming, maybe they will vote on the
0:33:43 > 0:33:47way home from Jim, will they go back and vote? Will it be so late that
0:33:47 > 0:33:53they won't have time -- home from the gymnasium. Far more people will
0:33:53 > 0:33:56be disenfranchised compared to the committed fraudsters who will find
0:33:56 > 0:33:59their way round this.It is traditional to rock up at the
0:33:59 > 0:34:03polling station at any time, take the pencil lead but the cross beside
0:34:03 > 0:34:09the name you want to vote for. People don't adapt that is a need to
0:34:09 > 0:34:12change or that quickly. It will disenfranchise an awful lot of
0:34:12 > 0:34:18people.I don't believe it will. One of the reasons these pilot schemes
0:34:18 > 0:34:23is being run is to iron out potential problems. I know that the
0:34:23 > 0:34:25Cabinet Office is working very closely with the Electoral
0:34:25 > 0:34:29Commission. They believe, the electrical machine, that a
0:34:29 > 0:34:33requirement to produce voter ID is needed.
0:34:33 > 0:34:39It's only reasonable if you have to produce voter ID, if you have to
0:34:39 > 0:34:42produce ID for all sorts of purposes in this country. Whether it is to
0:34:42 > 0:34:46travel abroad, get a mortgage, it is not unreasonable when you take the
0:34:46 > 0:34:51very serious decision to exercise your vote, to be asked to identify
0:34:51 > 0:34:55yourself.What forms of photo ID are there other than driving licence and
0:34:55 > 0:34:59password? You may not have a passport if you don't travel and you
0:34:59 > 0:35:04don't drive. It is not that easy. One option they use in Northern
0:35:04 > 0:35:09Ireland, they have a specific voter ID card that you can apply for. When
0:35:09 > 0:35:12these pilots are completed, it will be very important to ensure that if
0:35:12 > 0:35:17we go ahead and do this on a national basis, that people are able
0:35:17 > 0:35:21to get access to low-cost readily available photo IDs that they can
0:35:21 > 0:35:25exercise their right to vote.Will it drive down voter turnout?I don't
0:35:25 > 0:35:32think it will have two.It might not.It is not unreasonable when
0:35:32 > 0:35:37someone is taking part in democracy in order to prevent ID fraud and
0:35:37 > 0:35:41voter fraud that they produce photo ID, as they do for so many other
0:35:41 > 0:35:46things in life.Do you think it will disproportionately affects labour
0:35:46 > 0:35:50voters?Today we have seen a letter go to the Cabinet Office to the
0:35:50 > 0:35:52minister responsible from 40 charities and academics highlighting
0:35:52 > 0:35:55which kind of groups are going to be disenfranchised by this trial and
0:35:55 > 0:36:01that includes older voters and we had in that clip. The lady who said
0:36:01 > 0:36:05her older mother would not have photo IDs. It would disenfranchise
0:36:05 > 0:36:10some younger voters, the British youth Council and NUS has signed up.
0:36:10 > 0:36:14You think it will affect some of your voters more?It will affect
0:36:14 > 0:36:18voters from all political parties. Although voters, it may affect the
0:36:18 > 0:36:21Tory vote slightly more. With younger voters it is more likely to
0:36:21 > 0:36:26affect the Labour vote. This is not about party politics, this is about
0:36:26 > 0:36:31the disenfranchisement of legitimate voters in this country. Theresa
0:36:31 > 0:36:34mentioned in Northern Ireland that there is a card you can take to the
0:36:34 > 0:36:40polling station, the Mitchell commission recommended that this was
0:36:40 > 0:36:42rolled out as part of this trial -- the Electoral Commission. The
0:36:42 > 0:36:45government has chosen not to do it. There is no indication this card
0:36:45 > 0:36:48would be made available for elections in England, Scotland and
0:36:48 > 0:36:53Wales. It is a red herring to throw that in.Monroe Bergdorf, who was
0:36:53 > 0:36:59appointed as an adviser to Labour's women and equalities minister, Dawn
0:36:59 > 0:37:03Butler, is now going to... Has resigned. Is that the right
0:37:03 > 0:37:10decision?I think so, yes. Monroe was not a paid adviser, she was part
0:37:10 > 0:37:15of the voluntary panel of LGBT voices that the Shadow Minister for
0:37:15 > 0:37:19Women and Equalities pulled together to advise the Labour Party on LGBT
0:37:19 > 0:37:23issues. It was a very broad group with lots of different backgrounds
0:37:23 > 0:37:28and opinions but I don't endorse the comments that Monroe made. I think
0:37:28 > 0:37:33it is the right decision that she has resigned.Those views were quite
0:37:33 > 0:37:39well known. Many of them from tweets she had made. Was it right to
0:37:39 > 0:37:43appoint her?A lot of these tweets were a long time ago. I was not
0:37:43 > 0:37:48aware of them. I think it is right that she has resigned.Although she
0:37:48 > 0:37:53was on our sister programme, stating that white people are racist. That
0:37:53 > 0:37:57was only a year ago. Should Labour have thought twice before appointing
0:37:57 > 0:38:03her?This wasn't a paid appointment, this was a panel of...She was still
0:38:03 > 0:38:06going to be an adviser on equalities.It is right she resigned
0:38:06 > 0:38:12but I don't endorse the views that she has put forward. When she
0:38:12 > 0:38:16resigned she put out a statement and how she said she found very hounded
0:38:16 > 0:38:20by the press treatment she has had over recent days.Was it on fire,
0:38:20 > 0:38:25the press treatment?I think it is unfair when press hound anybody.--
0:38:25 > 0:38:33was unfair?When anyone is a volunteer, to do that.They were
0:38:33 > 0:38:37reporting the controversial comments she had made.It has resulted in
0:38:37 > 0:38:42some very unpleasant and abuses trolling, not necessarily from just
0:38:42 > 0:38:45the press but social media generally. It is a topic we have
0:38:45 > 0:38:49discussed on this programme before. It is deeply unpleasant. Thank you.
0:38:49 > 0:38:52Should schools have separate uniforms for boys and girls?
0:38:52 > 0:38:54That's not the view of the Liberal Democrats,
0:38:54 > 0:38:57who are calling on the government to encourage all schools to adopt
0:38:57 > 0:38:59a gender neutral uniform policy.
0:38:59 > 0:39:01Many schools have already changed their rules
0:39:01 > 0:39:03about school uniform.
0:39:03 > 0:39:08This secondary school in Lewes, East Sussex, has said
0:39:08 > 0:39:11all pupils must wear trousers, a change it said it made in response
0:39:11 > 0:39:14to concerns over the length of skirts and to cater for a handful
0:39:14 > 0:39:16of transgender pupils.
0:39:16 > 0:39:18Most schools haven't banned skirts, but have removed references
0:39:18 > 0:39:21to gender in their uniform policy, meaning girls could choose to wear
0:39:21 > 0:39:25the trousers and boys the skirts.
0:39:25 > 0:39:28So why are some schools making these changes?
0:39:28 > 0:39:30Well, we're joined now by Ashley Harrold, he's headteacher
0:39:30 > 0:39:36at Blatchington Mill School in Brighton.
0:39:36 > 0:39:42Welcome. What is your policy on uniform?Good afternoon. Thank you
0:39:42 > 0:39:46for having me on. Our uniform policy, we looked at it a year ago
0:39:46 > 0:39:50and made some adjustments and changes in order to make sure it was
0:39:50 > 0:39:53accessible to all students. An hourly, we took out references to
0:39:53 > 0:39:59boys and girls on uniform. -- primarily we took out. We focused on
0:39:59 > 0:40:05choice. The other factors, a general equality approach to our uniform and
0:40:05 > 0:40:08the cost, supporting families in hardship you couldn't afford it. We
0:40:08 > 0:40:15looked at having won price for all sizes -- one price for all sizes of
0:40:15 > 0:40:22uniform.How big an issue is this for you and parents and pupils?
0:40:22 > 0:40:26In reality, it actually probably affects a relatively small number of
0:40:26 > 0:40:30students. We removed the reference to boys or girls in terms of skirts
0:40:30 > 0:40:33and trousers and the uniform is the same for students in terms of the
0:40:33 > 0:40:38jumper, shirt and the tie. They choose between shorts, a SCUD or
0:40:38 > 0:40:43trousers on the bottom half. In doing so, all students can identify
0:40:43 > 0:40:47in the way they want to -- a skirt or trousers. The vast majority of
0:40:47 > 0:40:50students conform to a fairly standard gender stereotype and they
0:40:50 > 0:40:54would wear what you expect them to have worn under the old policy.
0:40:54 > 0:40:58Right.But for any student who don't feel that is the case, they don't
0:40:58 > 0:41:01feel ostracised and the message we are sending to them as a school,
0:41:01 > 0:41:04they are still part of our community and they are welcome.How have
0:41:04 > 0:41:10parents reacted?The support from parents has been absolutely strong.
0:41:10 > 0:41:14Within Brighton and Hove, there is a strong feeling that equality is a
0:41:14 > 0:41:18strong issue and the students have a choice, that has been widely
0:41:18 > 0:41:22positively received.What would you say about concerns that it might
0:41:22 > 0:41:27lead to some confusion amongst the pupils and the children at schools?
0:41:29 > 0:41:33It's actually much less of a mass issue then you would imagine. It's
0:41:33 > 0:41:36an individual issue. As a school, we're not taking a view on gender
0:41:36 > 0:41:41and we're not trying to impose any mindset or value system onto our
0:41:41 > 0:41:44students. We are saying we recognise young people actually don't always
0:41:44 > 0:41:48identify with the gender they were born. Within that context, we want
0:41:48 > 0:41:52them to be able to express themselves within our school system
0:41:52 > 0:41:57and school processes. It comes back to the principle of uniform. For us,
0:41:57 > 0:42:02it is identifying our school and community. We are hugely proud of
0:42:02 > 0:42:05our school and we want students to feel they are part of that. By
0:42:05 > 0:42:08wearing the uniform, they are engaged in everything we are about,
0:42:08 > 0:42:12the values we support, rat tolerance. Around academic
0:42:12 > 0:42:16achievement and success as a young person -- about tolerance. Mental
0:42:16 > 0:42:20health with young people, it is not a mass issue before a minority of
0:42:20 > 0:42:24students, not being able to wear a uniform they identify with could
0:42:24 > 0:42:27have a detrimental impact about the way they view themselves and how
0:42:27 > 0:42:29they feel others view them.Thank you.
0:42:29 > 0:42:31As I said, the Liberal Democrats want the Government
0:42:31 > 0:42:32to back this policy.
0:42:32 > 0:42:35Layla Moran speaks for the Lib Dems on education and Ella Whelan writes
0:42:35 > 0:42:37for the website Spiked.
0:42:37 > 0:42:38Welcome.
0:42:40 > 0:42:45You don't have a problem with boys wearing trousers and girls wearing
0:42:45 > 0:42:48skirts?Absolutely not, this is not where it is about. The origin of a
0:42:48 > 0:42:52campaign came from a goal in a school who refused to let her wear
0:42:52 > 0:42:55trousers and she was a bit of a tomboy and she didn't see it was
0:42:55 > 0:42:58fair that she couldn't play football with the boys. When she was wearing
0:42:58 > 0:43:03her skirt it would fly everywhere. That is where the campaign started.
0:43:03 > 0:43:06It was passed at our Scottish conference and backed by the
0:43:06 > 0:43:09Scottish Government, that is great. We think the same thing should
0:43:09 > 0:43:13happen across the UK.Why shouldn't children just be allowed to wear
0:43:13 > 0:43:17what they want?That is a fascinating question in relation to
0:43:17 > 0:43:19schools, children should not be allowed to do what they want at
0:43:19 > 0:43:24school. No matter what people say about uniform, used to work in a
0:43:24 > 0:43:26school in most teachers tell you that in the form is quite
0:43:26 > 0:43:31fundamental for discipline. It's a way of telling kids that they not
0:43:31 > 0:43:35only have to fit in and conform and respect authority, which is a dirty
0:43:35 > 0:43:39word today but quite important in relation to education. It's also a
0:43:39 > 0:43:44way of saying we are all the same, no one stands out. If you will
0:43:44 > 0:43:47advocate for individuals to be able to fetishise their individuality in
0:43:47 > 0:43:52a school system, that will give scope for the abuse of authority
0:43:52 > 0:43:56Baston uniform should be uniform?I have worked in schools that have
0:43:56 > 0:44:00teaching backgrounds, I have worked in schools with uniforms and
0:44:00 > 0:44:03without. I don't think there much evidence to suggest what she said is
0:44:03 > 0:44:08true. The point of this was about actually allowing students to be
0:44:08 > 0:44:12able to be comfortable in what they are in. The quality of education
0:44:12 > 0:44:15only improves if people can truly feel that they are comfortable in
0:44:15 > 0:44:21what they are wearing. What we heard from Ashley and his policy is
0:44:21 > 0:44:25probably my ideal policy. No specific reference in the uniform to
0:44:25 > 0:44:28this is what girls we had this is what boys wear, you just have a list
0:44:28 > 0:44:32and from that list pick what you like.Is it really about allowing
0:44:32 > 0:44:37children to wear what they want? It is just saying you can wear what you
0:44:37 > 0:44:41want within a strict uniform code, be that trousers or skirts.I don't
0:44:41 > 0:44:45think many people will be utterly disgusted to the point of protest
0:44:45 > 0:44:50about the fact that boys might wear skirts and girls might wear
0:44:50 > 0:44:53trousers. This is such a storm in a teacup, it is adults budding adult
0:44:53 > 0:44:57concerns on to children. The gender of session in schools is crazy. This
0:44:57 > 0:45:02is a minority of students, it's not a big issue. Schools in Bristol who
0:45:02 > 0:45:05had put up this gender neutral issue, no boys have worn skirts.The
0:45:05 > 0:45:10point is they have the choice.It is a storm in a teacup.Because it is
0:45:10 > 0:45:13two or three students in a school doesn't mean it is important.Or
0:45:13 > 0:45:19none.There is good evidence to show there are some transgender children
0:45:19 > 0:45:22who, partly because of these kind of issues, don't come out until much
0:45:22 > 0:45:25later on and usually at university. When they are able to throw off the
0:45:25 > 0:45:30shackles of this kind of thing.That might not be a bad thing. You talked
0:45:30 > 0:45:35about confusion. We are telling children from a young age, they have
0:45:35 > 0:45:41to fetishise and focus on and worry about their gender.Can I just
0:45:41 > 0:45:44pushed... No. Kids in their own homes wear what they like, they
0:45:44 > 0:45:46express individuality.It is a different environment at school.If
0:45:46 > 0:45:50there is a child who is actively questioning their gender at school,
0:45:50 > 0:45:53are we saying they shouldn't be allowed to do that in a school
0:45:53 > 0:45:57environment? That is entirely unfair. A lot of these arguments
0:45:57 > 0:46:01used to be deployed against gay people. But if you allow people to
0:46:01 > 0:46:04talk about it, somehow it is catching. That they will be
0:46:04 > 0:46:07confused. I'm really worried about the way this narrative has gone
0:46:07 > 0:46:12down.Are you putting ideas into children's heads?Ideas about what?
0:46:12 > 0:46:16To think about gender in a certain way.What is wrong about that? Is
0:46:16 > 0:46:20there anything wrong with allowing them to think about it?That is
0:46:20 > 0:46:25fine. What do you think?
0:46:25 > 0:46:28Schools should be allowed to make their decisions on these issues. And
0:46:28 > 0:46:31they want to go down this path by don't have a big issue with it but I
0:46:31 > 0:46:35do it is the most important issue in education. There are far more
0:46:35 > 0:46:38important things even in terms of school uniform did I think a far
0:46:38 > 0:46:42more important issue is what it costs, rather than the nature of it
0:46:42 > 0:46:46in terms of gender separation.We have talked about uniform. Would you
0:46:46 > 0:46:51take on a stage further in terms of toilets, for example?I was going to
0:46:51 > 0:46:56bring that up. We have our spring conference this weekend and I
0:46:56 > 0:46:59believe we may be talking about extending it to toilets. I would be
0:46:59 > 0:47:04up for that. I was working for a school that was about to have that
0:47:04 > 0:47:08policy as a result of changing the school building and there were some
0:47:08 > 0:47:10transgender students in the school and they used it as an opportunity
0:47:10 > 0:47:14to modernise in that way. The most interesting thing I found was the
0:47:14 > 0:47:19number of boys who were in favour of it who said they actually felt quite
0:47:19 > 0:47:22uncomfortable at your riddles and they said this would not have to be
0:47:22 > 0:47:25a way that they would have to do this any more. -- uncomfortable at
0:47:25 > 0:47:31your rivals. I think having a conversation about gender neutral
0:47:31 > 0:47:34pronouns is a good one and what I would like to see in parliament too
0:47:34 > 0:47:39in front of select committees.You can tell the Lib Dems have their
0:47:39 > 0:47:43priorities in order. The whole fascination with gender ends up in
0:47:43 > 0:47:46this farcical situation in which you are worrying children about their
0:47:46 > 0:47:50gender. We are not worrying about the fact that we should be Draconian
0:47:50 > 0:47:53and stop individuals from expressing themselves in their own personal
0:47:53 > 0:47:57life. School is a completely different area. I'm worried about
0:47:57 > 0:48:00the fat, and a lot of people are, that you would eradicate the notion
0:48:00 > 0:48:05of gender, which is quite important for some young people. I remember
0:48:05 > 0:48:08sneaking off into the girls' toilets and that being somewhere where my
0:48:08 > 0:48:12social life happened at school and similar things happened with boys.
0:48:12 > 0:48:15If we're talking about bullying, if you are going to institute a policy
0:48:15 > 0:48:21in which you allow young people to dress however they like, this is why
0:48:21 > 0:48:24uniform is important. It stops people from being bullied in one
0:48:24 > 0:48:29way.You accept that children are talking about these issues?
0:48:29 > 0:48:32Particularly at secondary school? These things openly being discussed
0:48:32 > 0:48:35in the playground anyway so isn't it really just an acceptance of what is
0:48:35 > 0:48:40going on?I would challenge that. I don't think children are having
0:48:40 > 0:48:44discussions about whether or not they are transgender. They are very
0:48:44 > 0:48:49free in expressing themselves. But putting adult concerns I think is
0:48:49 > 0:48:54damaging.I have been to schools in my constituency...You think come
0:48:54 > 0:49:03back to daughter was after that. -- you can come back. To us after that.
0:49:03 > 0:49:06Now, let's return to our top story for today - the suspicious
0:49:06 > 0:49:08collapse of former Russian spy Sergei Skripal in Salisbury.
0:49:08 > 0:49:10Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson has been discussing the case
0:49:10 > 0:49:12in the House of Commons.
0:49:12 > 0:49:14Police and partner agencies are now investigating. Honourable members
0:49:14 > 0:49:19will note the echoes of the death of Alexander Litvinenko in 2006. And
0:49:19 > 0:49:24while it would be wrong to prejudge the investigation, I can reassure
0:49:24 > 0:49:28the house that should evidence emerge that implies a state
0:49:28 > 0:49:32responsibility, Her Majesty's government will respond
0:49:32 > 0:49:36appropriately and robustly and I hope honourable members on both
0:49:36 > 0:49:40sides of the house will appreciate it would not be right for me now to
0:49:40 > 0:49:43give further details of the investigation for fear of
0:49:43 > 0:49:50prejudicing the outcome.The fact that we've got Boris Johnson in the
0:49:50 > 0:49:52House of Commons, the Foreign Secretary, answering an urgent
0:49:52 > 0:49:57question - is that prejudging what has happened?There is always a risk
0:49:57 > 0:50:00with politicians commenting at all about a police investigation or a
0:50:00 > 0:50:05court case because sometimes that can jeopardise eventual prosecution
0:50:05 > 0:50:09but given the concerns around this case and the Litvinenko precedent it
0:50:09 > 0:50:12is not surprising, I suppose, that the Foreign Secretary is at the
0:50:12 > 0:50:16dispatch box but is no doubt... He won't be able to comment in any kind
0:50:16 > 0:50:22of detail for fear of damaging the police investigation.And whatever
0:50:22 > 0:50:24is concluded from the police investigation, Boris Johnson
0:50:24 > 0:50:30alluding to having a robust response, what would that look like?
0:50:30 > 0:50:36It is hard to say at this stage. I think we can't jump to the rush to
0:50:36 > 0:50:39judgment on that but, Beasley, relations with Russia went into the
0:50:39 > 0:50:44deep freeze after Litvinenko. They subsequently thawed out to some
0:50:44 > 0:50:48degree. Obviously it would be a massive setback in terms of UK/
0:50:48 > 0:50:51Russia relations if the conclusion of this case is that the Russian
0:50:51 > 0:50:56state had something to do with these shocking events in Salisbury.Let's
0:50:56 > 0:50:57leave it there.
0:50:57 > 0:51:00The National People's Congress is taking place in Beijing today.
0:51:00 > 0:51:02That's the annual sitting of the Chinese Parliament -
0:51:02 > 0:51:05yes, annual - and they'll be considering a plan to allow
0:51:05 > 0:51:08Xi Jinping to become ruler for life by abolishing the limit on how long
0:51:08 > 0:51:09someone can be president.
0:51:09 > 0:51:12It sounds like US President Donald Trump is a fan of the idea.
0:51:12 > 0:51:15He is reported to have said, "I think it's great.
0:51:15 > 0:51:17Maybe we'll give that a shot one day."
0:51:17 > 0:51:21So if you're a world leader and you just don't
0:51:21 > 0:51:23fancy giving up the job, here's our guide
0:51:23 > 0:51:24to staying in power.
0:51:24 > 0:51:31MUSIC: Never Gonna Give You Up by Rick Astley
0:51:31 > 0:51:33Well, hello, there.
0:51:33 > 0:51:38And welcome to the Daily Politics five-step guide to
0:51:38 > 0:51:46how to hang onto power.
0:51:46 > 0:51:49For a really long time, even though everybody wants you to go, although
0:51:49 > 0:51:52they may have stopped telling you that because they are absolutely
0:51:52 > 0:51:54terrified.
0:51:54 > 0:51:56First things first - control the media.
0:51:56 > 0:51:59Accusing them of fake news is one thing but what you really want
0:51:59 > 0:52:00is total control of the message.
0:52:00 > 0:52:03North Korea is famous for its pro-government broadcasts.
0:52:03 > 0:52:05And don't forget the internet.
0:52:05 > 0:52:08The great firewall of China is thought to be the most extensive
0:52:08 > 0:52:09system of censorship in the world.
0:52:09 > 0:52:11There are even restrictions on Winnie the Pooh -
0:52:11 > 0:52:18that's because it's the nickname of the Chinese president Xi Jinping.
0:52:18 > 0:52:20Number two, change jobs.
0:52:20 > 0:52:23If you can't rewrite the constitution, like they're doing
0:52:26 > 0:52:28in China, think about swapping jobs.
0:52:28 > 0:52:29Vladimir Putin!
0:52:29 > 0:52:31Russia's Vladimir Putin has gone from Prime Minister to President,
0:52:31 > 0:52:33back to Prime Minister and then President again.
0:52:33 > 0:52:36All you need is a faithful pal to keep your seat
0:52:36 > 0:52:41warm while you're away, but avoid anyone who is too ambitious.
0:52:41 > 0:52:44Number three, get a fancy title.
0:52:44 > 0:52:47It's always worth making yourself sound important.
0:52:47 > 0:52:53Idi Amin was Uganda's dictator or, as he preferred to be called,
0:52:53 > 0:52:57His Excellency, President for Life, Lord of all the Beasts of the Earth
0:52:57 > 0:52:59and the Fishes of the Sea and Conqueror of the British Empire
0:52:59 > 0:53:02in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular.
0:53:02 > 0:53:05Snappy!
0:53:05 > 0:53:10Number four, if you must have elections, always win.
0:53:10 > 0:53:13As Stalin said, it's not the people who vote that count,
0:53:13 > 0:53:15it's the people who count the votes.
0:53:15 > 0:53:18Saddam Hussein and Kim Jong-Un both won elections with
0:53:18 > 0:53:21a remarkable 100% of the vote.
0:53:21 > 0:53:24In recent years, Raul Castro in Cuba and Assad in Syria
0:53:24 > 0:53:26were a little more understated.
0:53:26 > 0:53:31They had between 97% and 99%.
0:53:31 > 0:53:35And finally, number five, image is everything.
0:53:35 > 0:53:38President Amin leaves his imprint on everything.
0:53:38 > 0:53:41How you look, what you wear, how many guns you have.
0:53:41 > 0:53:49And make sure everybody gets an eyeful.
0:53:55 > 0:53:57Elisabeth Glinka reporting and I am joined by the foreign correspondent
0:53:57 > 0:54:02Martin Bell did talk have been many dictators you have not met and
0:54:02 > 0:54:07interviewed?I have met a few. I remember interviewing Idi Amin in
0:54:07 > 0:54:12Kampala in 1975. I had to kneel in front of this huge throwing.How did
0:54:12 > 0:54:22you feel?He gave me some wonderful sound bites but then when he started
0:54:22 > 0:54:25filling up the room, I realised it had turned into a wedding ceremony.
0:54:25 > 0:54:35He was about to marry a representative of the Army.What was
0:54:35 > 0:54:41he like?A buffoon, very dangerous. He had total control of the security
0:54:41 > 0:54:45apparatus. He was partly contained by the British because he had been a
0:54:45 > 0:54:50sergeant in the King's African air force. If you suppress enough, cut
0:54:50 > 0:54:54down on the free press, ran a savage, oppressive regime, these
0:54:54 > 0:54:59people can last almost a lifetime. Why do you think they want to last a
0:54:59 > 0:55:04lifetime and go on and on?It is the thirst for power, for being
0:55:04 > 0:55:07somebody. A lot of them come from humble origins and you'd get a sense
0:55:07 > 0:55:13of entitlement. Even in my four years in Parliament, I found I was
0:55:13 > 0:55:16getting a sense of entitlement.It is interesting that you say that
0:55:16 > 0:55:22because if, as has happened with Tony Blair and Margaret Thatcher,
0:55:22 > 0:55:26you win elections time after time, do you think in the end power
0:55:26 > 0:55:31corrupts?It does tend to corrupt, as the man said, you've seen it time
0:55:31 > 0:55:37and time again. I've found very few humble politicians in senior
0:55:37 > 0:55:41positions. An exception, actually, was Ronald Reagan, who was generally
0:55:41 > 0:55:47quite a humble, ordinary guy. But mostly, power feeds its own
0:55:47 > 0:55:52appetite.What you think is happening in China with Xi Jinping?
0:55:52 > 0:55:58I think we have a dictatorship perpetuating itself, under cover of
0:55:58 > 0:56:06an occasional meeting...Very occasional!There is a pattern to
0:56:06 > 0:56:11it, isn't there? I remember attending President Somoza of
0:56:11 > 0:56:16Nicaraguan. I was at his 60th birthday party and they were all
0:56:16 > 0:56:20seeing happy birthday to him and he was there for life until he ran away
0:56:20 > 0:56:24to Paraguay and was assassinated five years later. Nearly all of them
0:56:24 > 0:56:28come to a bad endYes, but some of them do last a very long time.
0:56:28 > 0:56:34Mugabe...But even he got removed under special conditions. I would
0:56:34 > 0:56:39regard him as the exception.What you think is key to these dictators
0:56:39 > 0:56:44holding onto power?I think total ruthlessness, and ability project
0:56:44 > 0:56:48themselves as the saviour of their people. One of my first foreign
0:56:48 > 0:56:56assignments was the overthrow of a dictator in 1966 in Ghana. He was
0:56:56 > 0:56:59also the Redeemer, the saviour, and if people believe that you can have
0:56:59 > 0:57:06a try long time.You a marginal seat now. Are you a bit jealous?I've
0:57:06 > 0:57:10ever met any dictators, I'm afraid, though I have met Vladimir Putin.I
0:57:10 > 0:57:13thought you were going to say you had never met a dictator you liked!
0:57:13 > 0:57:20What was Vladimir Putin like?Quite quiet. I met him as part of the G8
0:57:20 > 0:57:23conference in County Fermanagh when I was Secretary of State for
0:57:23 > 0:57:28Northern Ireland. He was very polite and laughable but quiet.In terms of
0:57:28 > 0:57:31people who are democratically elected, you could think of
0:57:31 > 0:57:34President Jacques Chirac to change the law to ensure he would face
0:57:34 > 0:57:37prosecution, it is not beyond the realms of democratically elected
0:57:37 > 0:57:42politicians to do things that people might think land themselves to being
0:57:42 > 0:57:46more dictator like.Yes, but in most of our democracy there are checks
0:57:46 > 0:57:52and balances. Go back to Watergate, Nixon didn't survive. As to what is
0:57:52 > 0:57:57going on at the moment, I'm not sure. This is a test of the checks
0:57:57 > 0:58:00and balances.Do you think things have changed very much? Are we
0:58:00 > 0:58:04always going to have that churn of dictators in the world?Human nature
0:58:04 > 0:58:10doesn't change. They're always have been wars, there always will be
0:58:10 > 0:58:12wars. Politics attract the same kinds of people and they're always
0:58:12 > 0:58:16have been dictators and always will be but there seems to be a bit of a
0:58:16 > 0:58:21surge in dictatorships at the moment.Any that stood out to you?
0:58:21 > 0:58:26You mentioned Idi Amin but any others that stood out to you?I
0:58:26 > 0:58:31think Tito. Tito repressed his people but it was almost a benign
0:58:31 > 0:58:37repression and I remember a story which indicates... Two prisoners on
0:58:37 > 0:58:41his islands, one asks the other hand Hughes in four aunties is ten years.
0:58:41 > 0:58:45The prisoner asks what he did and he says, I did nothing. The guy says,
0:58:45 > 0:58:50the most you get for doing nothing is eight years.And on that note,
0:58:50 > 0:58:54Martin Bell, thank you very much. Thank you, Theresa, for being our
0:58:54 > 0:58:58guest of the day. That is it. The one o'clock news is starting on