0:00:38 > 0:00:41Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43Dramatic developments in the Westminster bullying scandal
0:00:43 > 0:00:45as allegations against Labour's Shadow Work
0:00:45 > 0:00:48and Pensions Secretary lead her to stand aside,
0:00:48 > 0:00:51and MPs call for an investigation into John Bercow's
0:00:51 > 0:00:55actions as Speaker.
0:00:55 > 0:00:58As Theresa May convenes her National Security Council,
0:00:58 > 0:01:01could we be close to the government apportioning blame to Russia
0:01:01 > 0:01:03for the poisoning of a former Russian double agent,
0:01:03 > 0:01:08Sergei Skripal, and his daughter?
0:01:08 > 0:01:10University lecturers are entering their third week
0:01:10 > 0:01:14of strike action over planned changes to pensions.
0:01:14 > 0:01:16We'll be on the picket lines talking to staff
0:01:16 > 0:01:18and the students affected.
0:01:18 > 0:01:20Comic Relief raise millions of pounds for charities
0:01:20 > 0:01:21across the globe and in the UK but does it harm
0:01:22 > 0:01:24the image of Africa?
0:01:24 > 0:01:25One MP thinks so.
0:01:25 > 0:01:30He'll tell us why.
0:01:30 > 0:01:33A billion people reduced to just one prevailing image -
0:01:33 > 0:01:41mothers, desperate, crying, worried for their children.
0:01:44 > 0:01:47All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole
0:01:47 > 0:01:49of the programme today Dame Margaret Hodge,
0:01:49 > 0:01:51former Labour culture minister, and Tom Tughendhat, the chairman
0:01:51 > 0:01:59of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee.
0:02:01 > 0:02:03First today, bullying allegations hang over Westminster this morning.
0:02:03 > 0:02:05In a dramatic development last night, the Labour Party
0:02:05 > 0:02:07announced that Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary
0:02:07 > 0:02:09Debbie Abrahams had stood down from her front-bench role
0:02:09 > 0:02:14while bullying allegations against her were investigated.
0:02:14 > 0:02:17She refutes the claims and hit back at Jeremy Corbyn's office accusing
0:02:17 > 0:02:22them of ten months of "aggressive" and "intimidating" behaviour.
0:02:22 > 0:02:26At the same time, some MPs are calling for an investigation
0:02:26 > 0:02:29into the Speaker John Bercow after allegations surfaced about his
0:02:29 > 0:02:32treatment of a clerk in his office.
0:02:32 > 0:02:34He also strongly denies the claims.
0:02:34 > 0:02:40Our political correspondent Ben Wright can tell us more.
0:02:40 > 0:02:43Ben, can we go back to the Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary, Debbie
0:02:43 > 0:02:47Abrahams, before she was either forced to step aside or decided to
0:02:47 > 0:02:53step aside herself. What is actually going on?Was very strange. Last
0:02:53 > 0:02:57night, suddenly the Labour Party put out a statement that Debbie Abrahams
0:02:57 > 0:03:02had stepped aside while this employment issue was investigated
0:03:02 > 0:03:07and almost immediately there was a counter statement by Debbie
0:03:07 > 0:03:11Abrahams, completely taking Labour's statement apart. She said that she
0:03:11 > 0:03:18had not agreed to stand down. She completely denied any allegations of
0:03:18 > 0:03:22bullying and she accused some people in the Labour leader's office of
0:03:22 > 0:03:26aggressive, intimidating and wholly unprofessional behaviour. She said
0:03:26 > 0:03:30they had demonstrated a bully and culture of the worst kind so she hit
0:03:30 > 0:03:34back really strongly. This thing erupted out of the blue on what had
0:03:34 > 0:03:39clearly been an internal Labour Party matter, and it has submitted a
0:03:39 > 0:03:44come public in the most edifying way.Have they fallen out, Debbie
0:03:44 > 0:03:50Abrahams on the leader's office?I think they clearly have, if you take
0:03:50 > 0:03:54Debbie Abrahams' statement at face value. There is a real problem here.
0:03:54 > 0:03:59But she has been a member of Jeremy Corbyn's team we think relatively
0:03:59 > 0:04:04harmoniously for the last two of three years. She has been Shadow
0:04:04 > 0:04:06Work and Pensions Secretary for two years and seen to be working well as
0:04:06 > 0:04:10part of the team but something has gone very awry in how the Labour
0:04:10 > 0:04:14Party internally are handling what I am told are more than two
0:04:14 > 0:04:19independent, separate complaints about Debbie Abrahams' behaviour.
0:04:19 > 0:04:22She completely denies any allegation at all that she has been involved in
0:04:22 > 0:04:27bullion. There has been no reaction about this. We haven't heard from
0:04:27 > 0:04:30Jeremy Corbyn Debbie Abrahams but I noticed in the last few minutes that
0:04:30 > 0:04:35Andy Burnham, Labour's mayor of greater Manchester, said that Debbie
0:04:35 > 0:04:38deserve much better than this and has been very loyal to the party
0:04:38 > 0:04:43over the years, so there is some sympathy there from a senior figure
0:04:43 > 0:04:47in the party.And a word on John Bercow, the speaker, also facing
0:04:47 > 0:04:51allegations of bullying, which he has denied. What is the development
0:04:51 > 0:04:57there?You will remember last week Newsnight ran a very big report on I
0:04:57 > 0:05:02think three MPs, one of whom was John Bercow, accused of bullying.
0:05:02 > 0:05:06All three deny those allegations very strongly but there is some
0:05:06 > 0:05:11pressure today on John Bercow, so a Tory MP Andrew Bridgen has put down
0:05:11 > 0:05:17an early day motion, effectively a Parliamentary petition, questioning
0:05:17 > 0:05:21whether John Bercow can continue with his job as Speaker. He has been
0:05:21 > 0:05:26a very long-term critic of John Bercow, it must be said. Separately,
0:05:26 > 0:05:32the co-leader of the Green Party, Caroline Lucas, is hoping to get an
0:05:32 > 0:05:36urgent question called today because she wants the complaints made by the
0:05:36 > 0:05:41former clerks to be heard about on the floor of the chamber discussed
0:05:41 > 0:05:45and she wants clerks to be included in the code of conduct that is being
0:05:45 > 0:05:49pushed through the Commons now, in response to what have been months
0:05:49 > 0:05:53now of accusations of harassment and bullying on the Parliamentary
0:05:53 > 0:05:56estate.Ben Wright, thank you very much.
0:05:56 > 0:05:58Well, joining me now in the studio is Andrew Bridgen.
0:05:58 > 0:06:01He's the architect of a motion in the House of Commons which calls
0:06:01 > 0:06:03for an independent inquiry into the Speaker's actions.
0:06:03 > 0:06:07Welcome to the Daily Politics. Is this effectively a no-confidence
0:06:07 > 0:06:12motion in the speaker?No, I'm hoping it is a motion that the house
0:06:12 > 0:06:17can get behind, even those who are avid fans of John Bercow. The
0:06:17 > 0:06:19speaker has denied all the allegations against him so it is an
0:06:19 > 0:06:23opportunity for him to clear his name.Isn't this just an excuse to
0:06:23 > 0:06:31get rid of him? You don't like him - you have made that very clear.He
0:06:31 > 0:06:34doesn't like me.That may be the case but you are the one button your
0:06:34 > 0:06:38weight behind this no-confidence motion in him. Are you trying to get
0:06:38 > 0:06:42rid of him?We're hearing lots of allegations around Parliament,
0:06:42 > 0:06:46around harassment and bullying and it is important, the speaker is
0:06:46 > 0:06:51crucial to the culture of the House of Commons. I don't think we have a
0:06:51 > 0:06:54culture of endemic bullying and harassment but the speaker has to be
0:06:54 > 0:06:57beyond approach and an independent investigation into these very
0:06:57 > 0:07:03serious allegations against him I think would clear the air.Would you
0:07:03 > 0:07:05support this motion?I am very supportive of the speaker and I
0:07:05 > 0:07:09think he has done a very good job in making sure backbenchers are heard
0:07:09 > 0:07:15and I support Andrea Leadsom's work to make sure bullying is looked into
0:07:15 > 0:07:19throughout the house and died don't think anyone is above it. I am
0:07:19 > 0:07:21supporting the work that Andrea and the cross-party commission has done
0:07:21 > 0:07:26on trying to stop bullying.You are not going to sign this motion?I
0:07:26 > 0:07:31have a policy of not signing early day motions at all on the basis that
0:07:31 > 0:07:34they don't change anything and cost money so I don't see the point.
0:07:34 > 0:07:42Well, what is the point?Well, 158, I think, cross-party MPs signed my
0:07:42 > 0:07:47motion about the TV licence. Were scuppered House of Lords but we did
0:07:47 > 0:07:52get it into the bill. What is the point? I think it needs to send a
0:07:52 > 0:07:56clear message from the house that it will not be tolerated. Nobody has to
0:07:56 > 0:08:00come to work to be bullied or harassed and that goes for everyone
0:08:00 > 0:08:02in Parliament, right up to Mr Speaker, who was particularly
0:08:02 > 0:08:11important.Do you agree that any allegations have to be investigated?
0:08:11 > 0:08:16Let's look at John Bercow because he decided over the introduction of the
0:08:16 > 0:08:19code of conduct around harassment and bullying, so I have absolutely
0:08:19 > 0:08:25no doubt that if a complaint were to be made against him he would go
0:08:25 > 0:08:29through the process. A complaint, Andrew, as I understand it, has yet
0:08:29 > 0:08:34to be made, and you are well, well known, decent man that you may be,
0:08:34 > 0:08:40to be utterly hostile to Mr Speaker. I think he's been a great Speaker.
0:08:40 > 0:08:46He has modernised the house, he has brought Parliament back to its
0:08:46 > 0:08:49rightful position of hearing debate and holding ministers to account,
0:08:49 > 0:08:54and I don't think that you should be using this to undermine a man whom
0:08:54 > 0:08:58you just don't like. I don't know why but you don't like him.I can
0:08:58 > 0:09:01accept that the speaker has many good points and has made reforms
0:09:01 > 0:09:05around the chamber and procedures that I am supportive of.However, he
0:09:05 > 0:09:09has many negatives with him as well. I think the Speaker has to be
0:09:09 > 0:09:14impartial and I think he has lost that impartiality. When he came out
0:09:14 > 0:09:19and spoke about supporting Remain, when he came out and said that the
0:09:19 > 0:09:23President of the United States would be welcome in Westminster Hall, he
0:09:23 > 0:09:28is quite entitled to have those views privately...With the greatest
0:09:28 > 0:09:31respect, you are just demonstrating the motivation for writing down the
0:09:31 > 0:09:36early day motion.What has that got to do with bullying?This has
0:09:36 > 0:09:40nothing to do with bullying and harassment, this is to do with your
0:09:40 > 0:09:46view of Mr Speaker. I have a very different view. Has a complaint been
0:09:46 > 0:09:50brought against him? No, it hasn't. At a complaint is brought against
0:09:50 > 0:09:56him, he will undergo the very processes he himself introduced.You
0:09:56 > 0:09:59know very well that the person in question has not made a complaint,
0:09:59 > 0:10:03it is those around her. One of the reasons for that is that
0:10:03 > 0:10:05whistle-blowers are treated tremendously that the House of
0:10:05 > 0:10:09Commons, as you both well-known.So what is it you want investigated
0:10:09 > 0:10:15exactly?The allegations of bullying that have been made against Mr
0:10:15 > 0:10:19Speaker to be investigated independently.You want to look at
0:10:19 > 0:10:22whether or not he has been partisan on Europe, which in my view he
0:10:22 > 0:10:29hasn't been.What about these allegations, though, Margaret Hodge?
0:10:29 > 0:10:32Let's go through all the allegations. The fact we are talking
0:10:32 > 0:10:39about it is really good. Five years ago, certainly when I was a
0:10:39 > 0:10:41minister, we managed those situations where there was
0:10:41 > 0:10:45harassment and bullying. We managed to them. The idea that you can now
0:10:45 > 0:10:49complain and be open about them is a force for good and there are
0:10:49 > 0:10:53processes in place... I support, actually, the demand that this
0:10:53 > 0:10:56should cover clerks of the house as well as people working for MPs.
0:10:56 > 0:11:02Perfectly sensible idea and it is a good thing we're talking about this.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05What about Debbie Abrahams, Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary? There
0:11:05 > 0:11:08has been this row in the Labour Party, saying that she has to step
0:11:08 > 0:11:12aside while investigations are carried out about bullying
0:11:12 > 0:11:15allegations against her. Does she deserve to know exactly what is
0:11:15 > 0:11:21being levelled against her?I don't know the details so it is a slightly
0:11:21 > 0:11:23uncomfortable position. Debbie Abrahams has done a good job in
0:11:23 > 0:11:27highlighting what has gone wrong, particularly with Universal Credit.
0:11:27 > 0:11:32Lethargy has helped the Government to account on that. If there are
0:11:32 > 0:11:35allegations, they should be investigated. It is that there are
0:11:35 > 0:11:39now up counter allegations from her against the leader's office and I
0:11:39 > 0:11:42have to say we were told there was going to be a kinder, gentler
0:11:42 > 0:11:45politics in the Labour Party. I am not sure whether we are witnessing
0:11:45 > 0:11:49that. All the allegations should be properly investigated and all people
0:11:49 > 0:11:54should be held to account dockHow many people have signed the early
0:11:54 > 0:11:59day motion?I only laid down about half an hour ago.So nobody has
0:11:59 > 0:12:05signed it so far?I have signed it. That is good to know.
0:12:05 > 0:12:06Now it's time for our daily quiz.
0:12:06 > 0:12:09Transport for London have banned a poster from appearing at Tube
0:12:09 > 0:12:11stations because they argue it breaches their rules on
0:12:11 > 0:12:13"images or messages which relate to matters of public
0:12:13 > 0:12:14"controversy or sensitivity."
0:12:14 > 0:12:16So, our question today is, what was the poster?
0:12:16 > 0:12:19Was it a job advert for leader of Ukip?
0:12:19 > 0:12:21A commercial to tempt young people to join Conservative?
0:12:21 > 0:12:24An advert for Corbyn memorabilia?
0:12:24 > 0:12:26Or an attempt to entice businesspeople to move
0:12:26 > 0:12:28France following Brexit?
0:12:28 > 0:12:30At the end of the show, Tom and Margaret
0:12:30 > 0:12:34will give us the correct answer.
0:12:34 > 0:12:37I hope so, anyway!
0:12:37 > 0:12:39The National Security Council - that's a cabinet committee made up
0:12:39 > 0:12:42of senior ministers and chaired by Theresa May - has been meeting
0:12:42 > 0:12:44this morning in Downing Street to consider the latest information
0:12:44 > 0:12:46on the poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal.
0:12:46 > 0:12:49And the Prime Minister is reportedly preparing to make a statement,
0:12:49 > 0:12:52perhaps as early as this afternoon, implicating Russia in the attack
0:12:52 > 0:12:56and setting out retaliatory measures, which could include
0:12:56 > 0:13:01expelling Russian diplomats and revoking the visas of Russians
0:13:01 > 0:13:05in Britain with links to the Kremlin, financial measures
0:13:05 > 0:13:10to freeze Russian assets in the UK, coordinating a response with allies,
0:13:10 > 0:13:14particularly EU countries and the United States,
0:13:14 > 0:13:17bolstering the presence of UK troops and other Nato forces on the Russian
0:13:17 > 0:13:21border in Eastern Europe, and refusing to send officials
0:13:21 > 0:13:29and dignitaries to the World Cup in Russia this summer.
0:13:29 > 0:13:32Now, before we discuss the political consequences let's get the latest
0:13:32 > 0:13:33on the ground from Salisbury.
0:13:33 > 0:13:38Leila Nathoo is there.
0:13:38 > 0:13:42What has been the reaction from members of the public in Salisbury,
0:13:42 > 0:13:46who have now been asked to wash their clothes, in guidance that has
0:13:46 > 0:13:51come nearly a week after the event? Yes, this is guidance that has been
0:13:51 > 0:13:58given because traces of this deadly nerve agent have been found in two
0:13:58 > 0:14:02locations, the restaurant and pub that the Skripal are known to have
0:14:02 > 0:14:06visited before they collapsed, and this place behind me. About 500
0:14:06 > 0:14:12people who visited the Zizzi restaurant and the Mill pub have
0:14:12 > 0:14:16been asked to take the precautionary advice and wash their clothes, wiped
0:14:16 > 0:14:21down any items like phones or glasses, and bag things that need to
0:14:21 > 0:14:26be dry cleaned. This has come a week after the incident. Officials say
0:14:26 > 0:14:30there is no risk, no need to be alarmed, it is just a precaution and
0:14:30 > 0:14:34as they get new information, the advice changes. But I think there is
0:14:34 > 0:14:37some concern and anxiety among people we have spoken to who have
0:14:37 > 0:14:42been to the restaurant and the pub that this advice has come a bit late
0:14:42 > 0:14:46in the day as far as they're concerned. They feel if there is a
0:14:46 > 0:14:49risk, why weren't they told earlier and if there is, why are they being
0:14:49 > 0:14:55told to take these measures now? But I think the investigation is
0:14:55 > 0:14:59focusing really before Zizzi because we now know that the Skripals were
0:14:59 > 0:15:05contaminated when they got to that restaurant. The table they sat at
0:15:05 > 0:15:08has been destroyed, it was so contaminated, so there are separate
0:15:08 > 0:15:12decontamination operations taking place around the city centre in
0:15:12 > 0:15:15different locations to try to make sure that is completely free of that
0:15:15 > 0:15:17nerve agent but clearly, people who've specifically gone to that
0:15:17 > 0:15:22restaurant and pub will be most concerned.Leila Nathoo, thank you.
0:15:22 > 0:15:24And Vicki Young is outside Downing Street for us,
0:15:24 > 0:15:26where the Prime Minister has convened her National
0:15:26 > 0:15:28Security Council.
0:15:28 > 0:15:31So, I'll be expecting the Prime Minister to point the finger of
0:15:31 > 0:15:37blame at the Russian state?Downing Street are being very tight-lipped
0:15:37 > 0:15:41about all of this. I think she is determined to see clear evidence
0:15:41 > 0:15:45before she does anything like that. They've been in that for about an
0:15:45 > 0:15:49hour and a half, including senior figures like Amber Rudd, and Theresa
0:15:49 > 0:15:52May has been under pressure from some in her own party and from
0:15:52 > 0:15:58people like Mr Johnson to give a robust response. I think she wants
0:15:58 > 0:16:01to make sure the police and security services have had time to do their
0:16:01 > 0:16:06job to do it properly and to come forward with the evidence that she
0:16:06 > 0:16:10needs. And pointing the finger of blame at Russia is one thing but of
0:16:10 > 0:16:14course what group would that mean? Would it mean the Kremlin and
0:16:14 > 0:16:19President Putin? It could be KGB or former KGB agents, could be
0:16:19 > 0:16:22something to do with the criminal underworld and it is that thing she
0:16:22 > 0:16:26needs to be sure of. They've promised ministers there would be a
0:16:26 > 0:16:31robust response of it is proven Russia is behind this but to make it
0:16:31 > 0:16:34meaningful, really, Britain has to act alongside other countries, it
0:16:34 > 0:16:39could be other members of the European Union, it could be Nato. If
0:16:39 > 0:16:42that is to happen, they certainly will want to see clear evidence, so
0:16:42 > 0:16:46I think that is why there has been this cautious approach. Amber Rudd
0:16:46 > 0:16:54talked about clear heads and they want to be very sure they are sure
0:16:54 > 0:16:56of the facts before they make the announcement.
0:16:56 > 0:16:59Joining us in the studio is James Nixey, he's the head
0:16:59 > 0:17:01of the Russia programme at the foreign affairs think
0:17:01 > 0:17:02tank, Chatham House.
0:17:02 > 0:17:04Do you welcome a cautious approach from the Prime Minister and Home
0:17:04 > 0:17:10Secretary over this?Caution is prudent. You don't want to
0:17:10 > 0:17:13miscalculated and have a cataclysmic response by Russia. At the same
0:17:13 > 0:17:20time, what has been proven is that the successive policies towards
0:17:20 > 0:17:25Russia, what we have seen consistently, is protection of
0:17:25 > 0:17:30well-managed, Kremlin linked interest to have links to UK
0:17:30 > 0:17:33solicitors, lawyers, bankers, accountants etc. I think now is the
0:17:33 > 0:17:39time to begin to exterminate these in order to protect ourselves. This
0:17:39 > 0:17:47is a chemical weapons attack, an act of terrorism and need to -- needs to
0:17:47 > 0:17:54be called out as such.Do you agree with that?I think it is a terrorist
0:17:54 > 0:17:59attack, similar in kind as well as a nature to other terrorist attacks
0:17:59 > 0:18:03we've had. The fact there is a British policeman in hospital, there
0:18:03 > 0:18:07are two attempted victims in hospital and many hundreds of people
0:18:07 > 0:18:12are having to take precautions for fear of getting further harm, we can
0:18:12 > 0:18:17see this is a very, very mass attack, a group of people who did
0:18:17 > 0:18:20this had no care at all for the safety of British people.Do you
0:18:20 > 0:18:24expect the Prime Minister to point the finger of blame at Russia and
0:18:24 > 0:18:30Vladimir Oudin?I am for the simple reason this is a nerve agent. They
0:18:30 > 0:18:34are difficult to make and very difficult to store and they are even
0:18:34 > 0:18:38more difficult to transport so the idea anybody except eight state
0:18:38 > 0:18:42actor had control of this and access to it and would have been authorised
0:18:42 > 0:18:48to deploy it is laughable.Do you agree with that?Absolutely. Nerve
0:18:48 > 0:18:52agents state property under state control.So what about retaliatory
0:18:52 > 0:18:55measures? You've made criticism of government is protecting well
0:18:55 > 0:19:00moneyed Russians here. So, hit them where it hurts? In the pocket?
0:19:00 > 0:19:04Absolutely because those people have links back to Vladimir Putin. The
0:19:04 > 0:19:13squeeze has repercussions. One can have a much more coordinated cyber
0:19:13 > 0:19:16response, European response, Nato response even. It can even be
0:19:16 > 0:19:21brought up at the UN Security Council. In the realms of cyber,
0:19:21 > 0:19:24military sphere and diplomatic sphere, of course, we don't want to
0:19:24 > 0:19:28cease diplomatic relations.So, you wouldn't send them all home?I
0:19:28 > 0:19:32wouldn't but I'd send those home with proven links to other
0:19:32 > 0:19:37affiliations other there -- other than their designated affiliations.
0:19:37 > 0:19:41Would that have other repercussions? I completely concur with what has
0:19:41 > 0:19:46been said so far but I think we have to go deeper. It has now become the
0:19:46 > 0:19:51jurisdiction of choice for dirty money. Associated with organised
0:19:51 > 0:19:58crime, criminals, all those sorts of people. I think there is a not we
0:19:58 > 0:20:06could do pretty quickly to try and make us less likely to have...For
0:20:06 > 0:20:13example? There are 85,000 properties in the UK today that are owned by
0:20:13 > 0:20:17shell companies, mainly located in tax havens.Many of those Russian
0:20:17 > 0:20:23health. If we had the public of beneficial ownership of properties
0:20:23 > 0:20:27which Cameron and Osborne promised in which this government is delaying
0:20:27 > 0:20:33until 2021, that would be one thing. Two, we are very lax in how we allow
0:20:33 > 0:20:38companies to be incorporated in the UK. I know this is going on a bit
0:20:38 > 0:20:44but it is important. Many companies choose Britain. If we look at the
0:20:44 > 0:20:47Scottish limited partnership, this is a structure that was set up to
0:20:47 > 0:20:53help farmers in Scotland in vest in their land. There is an analysis
0:20:53 > 0:21:02been done which shows that people of importance, whatever it is called,
0:21:02 > 0:21:06in the analysis done, only 4% of them were British people and the
0:21:06 > 0:21:10actual people who incorporated those companies would Russians, Ukrainians
0:21:10 > 0:21:15and people from Belarus. These structures being used by people in
0:21:15 > 0:21:19Russia and elsewhere to hide dirty money and we should go...Has the
0:21:19 > 0:21:23government failed in terms of making get too comfortable for wealthy
0:21:23 > 0:21:27Russians to choose London as a place to settle?I agree with Margaret, I
0:21:27 > 0:21:35don't think we've gone far enough. I think dirty money not only allows
0:21:35 > 0:21:37others from, frankly, questionable jurisdictions to hide their ill
0:21:37 > 0:21:40gotten gains here but it also corrupts the system were trying to
0:21:40 > 0:21:45protect and what we've got to do is demonstrate the city is absolutely
0:21:45 > 0:21:47the heart of the international financial system and in order to do
0:21:47 > 0:21:53that we've got to show we are clean, honourable and law-abiding. 99% of
0:21:53 > 0:21:57business is so what we are talking about is sorting out a very small
0:21:57 > 0:22:03amount of all the people who invest in London. We need to do with
0:22:03 > 0:22:08trusted people.Should money donated from wealthy Russians, unless the
0:22:08 > 0:22:12Conservative party can prove the source of that funding, should it be
0:22:12 > 0:22:16returned?If they are British citizens and it is donated by
0:22:16 > 0:22:20British citizens, I'm not a believer that you should search for prior
0:22:20 > 0:22:23affiliations. Refugees come from around the world and become British
0:22:23 > 0:22:27citizens if it is lawful British citizens. If it is however
0:22:27 > 0:22:32associated to an oligarch who is still a Russian citizen and it is
0:22:32 > 0:22:35done through a front, absolutely not.The Prime Minister said she was
0:22:35 > 0:22:40going to suck from a long spoon. Wouldn't it be business as usual?It
0:22:40 > 0:22:47shouldn't be. I'm afraid I'm not involved in raising money.We can go
0:22:47 > 0:22:51tougher on political donations. I think the extent of the exposure in
0:22:51 > 0:22:56the Sunday Times yesterday, over £800,000 going to the Conservative
0:22:56 > 0:23:03party, suggest we should look again at individual donations to limit the
0:23:03 > 0:23:08influence that people will think that buys.Will that work? Is there
0:23:08 > 0:23:13a risk that actually there are people here, like Roman Debrunner
0:23:13 > 0:23:18Fitch, people who would be put off to invest if we make it too
0:23:18 > 0:23:22difficult?That is correct and it will have a negative effect on us.
0:23:22 > 0:23:26It will affect the balance of payments. We are not over exposed to
0:23:26 > 0:23:31the Russian economy but in order to protect our national security, we
0:23:31 > 0:23:34will have to incur some smaller sacrifices. It will hurt them more
0:23:34 > 0:23:41but it will hurt us as well.She will never get economic sustainable
0:23:41 > 0:23:45growth and prosperity on the back of dirty money so while there might be
0:23:45 > 0:23:49a short-term instant impact, in the long-term the integrity of our legal
0:23:49 > 0:23:53and financial systems is far more important.What about Russia today?
0:23:53 > 0:24:00Should any moves be made about that? It is extraordinary that information
0:24:00 > 0:24:04warfare by a hostile state and an organisation that has breached its
0:24:04 > 0:24:10broadcasting licence on numerous occasions still has not... Still is
0:24:10 > 0:24:14able to broadcast free. That is a matter for Ofcom. I hope they are
0:24:14 > 0:24:18looking at it very carefully because this is running, and isn't just
0:24:18 > 0:24:24Russia today but it is also another company in Edinburgh.Do you think
0:24:24 > 0:24:30we can achieve up anything with crop money?You can do a lot more. You
0:24:30 > 0:24:34can do an affectation of the Americans act, which deals with
0:24:34 > 0:24:40Kremlin Russians. Unexplained wealth orders, money laundering orders.The
0:24:40 > 0:24:45Labour Party said they tried to amend the sanctions on intime
0:24:45 > 0:24:49money-laundering to add a close and led to this act only for it to be
0:24:49 > 0:24:52blocked by your party.There are many people on my side, including
0:24:52 > 0:24:59Andrew Mitchell and me who have been pushing for these orders. I'm not
0:24:59 > 0:25:03going to go through the details of the wet amendments and political
0:25:03 > 0:25:06chicanery goes through the Commons but what I will say is there are
0:25:06 > 0:25:09many of us that have often pushed for this and are still pushing for
0:25:09 > 0:25:12this this is not a party matter. Margaret and I agree on this that we
0:25:12 > 0:25:18need to be much clearer on this and what we need to do is do as James is
0:25:18 > 0:25:22saying. We need to be hard line in making sure London isn't a
0:25:22 > 0:25:25playground for wealthy oligarchs who are the aristocrats of a new tourist
0:25:25 > 0:25:33regime.Let's look at the reports that's
0:25:33 > 0:25:35that's been published today in which the term global Britain cannot just
0:25:35 > 0:25:40be a slogan. What do you mean by that?What I meant by it, or what
0:25:40 > 0:25:45the group meant by it, is that we need to do more than simply have a
0:25:45 > 0:25:49slogan. We need to have the detail of the resources behind what it
0:25:49 > 0:25:54means. For example, one of the things we have seen since the Brexit
0:25:54 > 0:26:01vote is that we need to reinvest in bilateral relations in Europe. That
0:26:01 > 0:26:06is absolutely right but I don't think what anybody expected was that
0:26:06 > 0:26:11assets that come from China in order to be invested in the European 27,
0:26:11 > 0:26:13it doesn't strike us as global Britain so what does global Britain
0:26:13 > 0:26:18need? Can you put meat on the bone so that we understand what you are
0:26:18 > 0:26:24aiming at. I use selecting rules -based institutions like the Asian
0:26:24 > 0:26:27infrastructure investment bank? Are you selecting individual bilateral
0:26:27 > 0:26:31relations and where is the resource coming from?You seem to blame the
0:26:31 > 0:26:34foreign office who you say has lost its way and there is problems with
0:26:34 > 0:26:38leadership at the top.One of the things we've noticed is we haven't
0:26:38 > 0:26:42had the clarity we require from this and I think it is up to leaders to
0:26:42 > 0:26:46provide clarity so I am hoping we will get that.Do you have faith in
0:26:46 > 0:26:51Boris Johnson to deliver that?Boris Johnson is an amazing campaigner and
0:26:51 > 0:26:57has an amazing voice so I hope he uses to what is at the moment are
0:26:57 > 0:27:02refused -- a confusing situation. Thank you.
0:27:02 > 0:27:04Now, it's already been a busy week and its only Monday lunchtime.
0:27:04 > 0:27:06Let's take a look at what else is happening this week.
0:27:06 > 0:27:09As we've just been discussing, Caroline Lucas from the Greens hopes
0:27:09 > 0:27:11to be granted an Urgent Question on allegations of bullying
0:27:11 > 0:27:14in the Commons, while Tory MP Andrew Bridgen is calling
0:27:14 > 0:27:15for an independent inquiry into allegations made
0:27:15 > 0:27:17against the Speaker John Bercow.
0:27:17 > 0:27:21Tomorrow, the Chancellor presents his Spring Statement.
0:27:21 > 0:27:24There'll be no Red Box, or rabbits out of hats we're told,
0:27:24 > 0:27:29but we'll be watching closely, live here on the Daily Politics.
0:27:29 > 0:27:32On Wednesday, it's the weekly showdown between Theresa May
0:27:32 > 0:27:34and Jeremy Corbyn at Prime Minister's Questions.
0:27:34 > 0:27:38The PM is then set for more tough talk with the first ministers
0:27:38 > 0:27:41of Scotland and Wales, over the EU Withdrawal Bill.
0:27:41 > 0:27:44On Friday, the Conservative Party's Spring Forum gets
0:27:44 > 0:27:45under way in London.
0:27:45 > 0:27:50And, at the weekend, Russia goes to the polls
0:27:50 > 0:27:51to elect a new President.
0:27:51 > 0:27:53The results are expected Sunday evening, but there are few prizes
0:27:53 > 0:27:56for guessing who'll win that one.
0:27:56 > 0:27:58We're joined now by Kate McCann from the Telegraph and Steve
0:27:58 > 0:28:03Hawkes from the Sun.
0:28:03 > 0:28:10Welcome to both of you. How much pressure is the speaker under?I
0:28:10 > 0:28:13think John Bercow is under a significant amount of pressure this
0:28:13 > 0:28:18morning. As you mentioned earlier there is an urgent question down but
0:28:18 > 0:28:22officer he gets to decide whether it is heard about his behaviour and the
0:28:22 > 0:28:26behaviour of a couple of other MPs highlighted in the Newsnight
0:28:26 > 0:28:30investigation. It's worth looking at what is going on behind the scenes
0:28:30 > 0:28:33because John Bercow originally said he'd stop being the speaker in June
0:28:33 > 0:28:37of this year when he had served almost two full terms. After that,
0:28:37 > 0:28:41he quietly said he'd like to carry on for longer which annoyed quite a
0:28:41 > 0:28:44lot of MPs, both on the Labour side and the conservative side who feel
0:28:44 > 0:28:50he should give up his seat and let somebody else have a turn. There is
0:28:50 > 0:28:52a lot of that rumbling along underneath all this talk about
0:28:52 > 0:28:57bullying and what he has or hasn't done in his office as speaker.
0:28:57 > 0:29:01Steve, Russia, how big test of Theresa May's leadership will be the
0:29:01 > 0:29:06response of the government to what has happened in Salisbury?Very big.
0:29:06 > 0:29:09If you see the Evening Standard, Amber Rudd is talking about a
0:29:09 > 0:29:14powerful response to Russia, and the Kremlin, so it is all building up to
0:29:14 > 0:29:19quite a big showdown in the Commons, if this statement does,. There was a
0:29:19 > 0:29:23Security Council meeting at 11am, and it is about the proof, how
0:29:23 > 0:29:30decisive it as it was a Russian wet job, as they call it, and how far
0:29:30 > 0:29:35you can go into expelling people, sanctions or diplomatic sanctions.
0:29:35 > 0:29:40And also Jeremy Corbyn's response. Last week he was act by the
0:29:40 > 0:29:44commonest party so his response will be fascinating.Let's talk about the
0:29:44 > 0:29:48spring statement because this will be a pared down event. Because it is
0:29:48 > 0:29:53new and the big showpiece will be later on in the year in the autumn.
0:29:53 > 0:29:58What are we going to expect from the Chancellor?Not very much. We were
0:29:58 > 0:30:02talking about what we might be highlighting this week and we almost
0:30:02 > 0:30:05forgot the spring statement entirely because it is probably going to be
0:30:05 > 0:30:14boring.Don't say that! We have a special programme on it tomorrow.
0:30:15 > 0:30:19Don't hold out too much hope! Philip Hammond is not called Spreadsheet
0:30:19 > 0:30:23fill for nothing. We're not expecting any particularly big
0:30:23 > 0:30:26announcements at although we may see things like consultations about
0:30:26 > 0:30:30plastics and whether he may or may not banned chewing gum or try to tax
0:30:30 > 0:30:34chewing gum. But we're not expecting anything big, we're not expecting
0:30:34 > 0:30:38Philip Hammond to rock the boat and he has robbed himself and the
0:30:38 > 0:30:42Government of the ability to change the narrative of where the
0:30:42 > 0:30:46Government is going. He could have done something really big and
0:30:46 > 0:30:49exciting and set Theresa May on a path which took a back to her Number
0:30:49 > 0:30:52Ten speech when she said it was all about the just about managing people
0:30:52 > 0:30:56but he has decided not to do that and we are going to have to wait
0:30:56 > 0:30:59until the autumn to hear big news from the Chancellor.Is that a
0:30:59 > 0:31:05mistake? I know it is a relatively low-key event enters a big
0:31:05 > 0:31:08announcements but he could have set something out about the narrative on
0:31:08 > 0:31:13austerity or not austerity.For all the talk, there will be a few people
0:31:13 > 0:31:14talking about it tomorrow. There will be more about Brexit
0:31:14 > 0:31:18contingency spending, a bit more about the national living wage,
0:31:18 > 0:31:22which will go up in April but I think this will be more one for the
0:31:22 > 0:31:28geeks. Most of the play tomorrow will be a forecast from the OBR. We
0:31:28 > 0:31:34expect borrowing to be about 8 billion lower this fiscal year and 4
0:31:34 > 0:31:36billion lower next fiscal year, which gives him a bit more with
0:31:36 > 0:31:40room. That is what the economists are looking for, the borrowing, and
0:31:40 > 0:31:43how low that goes on whether the Chancellor will get edged back
0:31:43 > 0:31:48toward the surplus. In November they wrote off the chances of that until
0:31:48 > 0:31:512025 so the detail is going to be quite interesting.I will be
0:31:51 > 0:31:56standing up for all the geeks, then! Thank you both for joining us today.
0:31:56 > 0:31:58Now, lecturers at universities across the UK are entering
0:31:58 > 0:32:01their third week of strike action in a dispute over changes
0:32:01 > 0:32:02to their pension plans.
0:32:02 > 0:32:04Staff say they will be almost £10,000 worse off per year
0:32:04 > 0:32:07if the changes come into force but university management say
0:32:07 > 0:32:10the pension scheme has a £6 billion deficit which can't be ignored.
0:32:10 > 0:32:14Ellie has been out on the picket lines taking the temperature.
0:32:14 > 0:32:16Nice weather for ducks this morning.
0:32:16 > 0:32:17And, it would seem, striking lecturers.
0:32:17 > 0:32:20We are outside Senate House at the University of London,
0:32:20 > 0:32:22and I've got my own striking lecturer.
0:32:22 > 0:32:25Why are you striking this morning?
0:32:25 > 0:32:27We are striking to defend the pensions that people
0:32:27 > 0:32:31who work in universities - lecturers, librarians,
0:32:31 > 0:32:33others who work with them - have felt were guaranteed for years
0:32:33 > 0:32:37and are now being threat and with a cut of up to 50%.
0:32:37 > 0:32:39But what you're being changed from is a guaranteed benefit
0:32:39 > 0:32:42when you get your pension to a guaranteed contribution system,
0:32:42 > 0:32:45which is what most of the private sector is on, and the universities
0:32:45 > 0:32:49say that because there is a big, black hole, in essence,
0:32:49 > 0:32:51they can't afford your pensions, so it needs to change.
0:32:51 > 0:32:53There is no black hole.
0:32:53 > 0:32:54The Vice Chancellors know this.
0:32:54 > 0:32:55They themselves have complained about the way
0:32:55 > 0:32:57the calculations have been done.
0:32:57 > 0:32:59There is plenty of money to guarantee the pensions that
0:32:59 > 0:33:02people felt they were entitled to when they started
0:33:02 > 0:33:08in the profession, sometimes decades ago.
0:33:08 > 0:33:10We've seen a number of these strikes already.
0:33:10 > 0:33:13What's going to happen if there is no resolution?
0:33:13 > 0:33:15We hope there will be a resolution this week.
0:33:15 > 0:33:16There are talks at Acas.
0:33:16 > 0:33:19If not, we will still strike to the end of the week, and, then,
0:33:19 > 0:33:21if there is no resolution beyond that, more strikes
0:33:21 > 0:33:23will happen in the summer.
0:33:23 > 0:33:25They will happen when students are taking their exams.
0:33:25 > 0:33:28And it may be that some people will end up without the degree.
0:33:28 > 0:33:31Some students may not graduate if the employers don't come around
0:33:31 > 0:33:33to do what's reasonable and to deliver what
0:33:33 > 0:33:35they've promised.
0:33:35 > 0:33:36Greg, thank you very much.
0:33:36 > 0:33:38Well, it's quite serious stuff.
0:33:38 > 0:33:41I think we can move around now and find, sorry to interrupt,
0:33:41 > 0:33:42the pet student here.
0:33:42 > 0:33:44Now, Nisha, you're supporting the lecturers here, even though
0:33:44 > 0:33:47we've just heard you might not get your degree, or some students
0:33:47 > 0:33:49might not get their degree.
0:33:49 > 0:33:51Well, I think the changes that are happening at the moment
0:33:51 > 0:33:53to the pension scheme are something that affects students
0:33:53 > 0:33:54in the long-term.
0:33:54 > 0:33:55You're not worried, though?
0:33:55 > 0:33:58You're paying £9,500, you're losing a number of teachers...
0:33:58 > 0:33:59£16,250.
0:33:59 > 0:34:00I'm an international student.
0:34:00 > 0:34:02Even worse!
0:34:02 > 0:34:04How do you justify that, then?
0:34:04 > 0:34:06The thing is, I don't think fees should exist at all in education.
0:34:06 > 0:34:08I'm completely against fees.
0:34:08 > 0:34:10And I think that there are other questions that these strikes
0:34:10 > 0:34:12are raising right now.
0:34:12 > 0:34:15Because the university sector has effectively been brought
0:34:15 > 0:34:17to a standstill this has been a really great opportunity
0:34:17 > 0:34:20for students to start questioning why is it I have to pay
0:34:20 > 0:34:21for my education?
0:34:21 > 0:34:22Thank you very much.
0:34:22 > 0:34:25Let me take you over here to the other important
0:34:25 > 0:34:27part of this strike, which is the tea station.
0:34:27 > 0:34:28And I think we've got...
0:34:28 > 0:34:31Hello, have you had any students who are a bit annoyed that they've
0:34:31 > 0:34:34lost their teaching days and they are paying all this money?
0:34:34 > 0:34:36I think it's astonishing how supportive the students have been.
0:34:36 > 0:34:38Maybe there are some who don't say anything,
0:34:38 > 0:34:41cos they realise they're not going to get a good reception,
0:34:41 > 0:34:43but nearly everyone is on board, they recognise why the lecturers
0:34:43 > 0:34:46are doing this, so, yeah, it's been really great
0:34:46 > 0:34:47to have their support.
0:34:47 > 0:34:48All right, thank you very much.
0:34:48 > 0:34:51It looks like there might be a bit of brownie left, so, you know,
0:34:51 > 0:34:54far be it to be involved but this strike could continue
0:34:54 > 0:35:01to the end of the week, and into the summer, who knows.
0:35:01 > 0:35:03Ellie trying to dip into the sustenance there!
0:35:03 > 0:35:04Joining me now is Keith Simpson.
0:35:04 > 0:35:06He's a lecturer at City University
0:35:06 > 0:35:08and a member of the University and College Union, who are
0:35:08 > 0:35:09organising the strike.
0:35:09 > 0:35:12And we're joined from Nottingham by the pensions expert John Ralph.
0:35:12 > 0:35:15We did invite Universities UK, the group who represent universities
0:35:15 > 0:35:17in the dispute, onto the programme but they didn't have
0:35:17 > 0:35:18anyone available.
0:35:18 > 0:35:22But I'm delighted that you two are here. First of all, Keith Simpson,
0:35:22 > 0:35:26how do you justify potentially depriving students of their degrees
0:35:26 > 0:35:31and, in broad terms, their education?I think the situation is
0:35:31 > 0:35:34that we have taken this industrial action to make sure that students
0:35:34 > 0:35:40are not deprived of education.This is about your pensions.It is but it
0:35:40 > 0:35:44is also about education generally. We have also taken industrial action
0:35:44 > 0:35:47that we think shows the employers we are serious about this, and that
0:35:47 > 0:35:52this will resolve the matter as quickly as possible. When we started
0:35:52 > 0:35:55this dispute, vice chancellors across the country were saying that
0:35:55 > 0:36:00there was no resolution possible, that there was a massive black hole.
0:36:00 > 0:36:04Now quite a lot of them of come out saying that there is room for
0:36:04 > 0:36:08negotiations and talks, and that is exactly what we are going to do.
0:36:08 > 0:36:12That is what is happening at Acas today and we hope that this dispute
0:36:12 > 0:36:17is over before the end of the week. Do you agree with Keith Simpson? Is
0:36:17 > 0:36:23he right to say there is a resolution that is possible? You
0:36:23 > 0:36:28have advised employers, including in this sector. What of the scale of
0:36:28 > 0:36:31the pension problem?I have followed pension schemes for many years and
0:36:31 > 0:36:34as far as this is concerned, there is more misinformation and
0:36:34 > 0:36:40disinformation than I have ever seen before. Of all the three parties
0:36:40 > 0:36:45that are involved, USS the pension scheme, you the union, and Unico,
0:36:45 > 0:36:50the employers, they're all in denial to various degrees. And I'm sorry to
0:36:50 > 0:36:55correct you, the deficit is not £6 billion. The deficit in the last
0:36:55 > 0:37:03published, audited accounts of US S, March 2017, was £17.5 billion. My
0:37:03 > 0:37:06concern is that all the three parties, for different reasons, are
0:37:06 > 0:37:11in denial about the extent of the problem. They're all throwing up
0:37:11 > 0:37:15smoke screens. I don't know what the answer is but from a technical
0:37:15 > 0:37:19forensic point of view, we need to have the facts on the table, and the
0:37:19 > 0:37:23facts on the table are people living longer, real interest rates are
0:37:23 > 0:37:26going down, therefore the cost of providing pensions is going up and
0:37:26 > 0:37:33that affects all employers. Added to that, in the case of USS, the huge
0:37:33 > 0:37:37deficit, the largest deficit, 17.5 billion, though we have ever seen
0:37:37 > 0:37:41any UK pension scheme, is self-inflicted. USS don't want to
0:37:41 > 0:37:45own up to that. It is self-inflicted because the last ten years or more,
0:37:45 > 0:37:51they have been at the casino and it has not paid off.Well, deficit is
0:37:51 > 0:37:57even bigger, £17.5 billion.John seems to make a living by on and
0:37:57 > 0:38:00wrecking people's pensions.Are you saying he is wrong? That figure is
0:38:00 > 0:38:06incorrect?I am not a pensions expert. I went directly to the
0:38:06 > 0:38:09people that I think do know something about it, the professors
0:38:09 > 0:38:12that work at city University's business school. Some of them are
0:38:12 > 0:38:18actuarial scientists and they say that the U UK position is very
0:38:18 > 0:38:23negative and that this situation can be resolved. I am not an expert.
0:38:23 > 0:38:27John Grimes on all of these programmes saying these things.
0:38:27 > 0:38:32There is no black hole, and the pension is actually getting more in
0:38:32 > 0:38:38every year than is taken out of it. It has got a long-term future, and
0:38:38 > 0:38:41UK universities are something to be proud of. They're not going to
0:38:41 > 0:38:46disappear. We have some of the leading universities in the world.
0:38:46 > 0:38:53This is a sustainable pension fund and you see you have put forward
0:38:53 > 0:38:58proposals that we are talking about at Acas that will make sure it is
0:38:58 > 0:39:01sustainable for the future.Answer that criticism and your reputation
0:39:01 > 0:39:07in saying that you are wrong on this.I hope I don't need to defend
0:39:07 > 0:39:11my reputation. The 17.5 bigger is not a figure that I have calculated
0:39:11 > 0:39:16or estimated. It is in the published report and accounts, done on exactly
0:39:16 > 0:39:20the same basis that the other 5000 pension schemes on the UK have to
0:39:20 > 0:39:26prepare their accounts. What surprises me is that anybody thinks
0:39:26 > 0:39:30that universities can be immune to the changes that are happening -
0:39:30 > 0:39:34repeat, people living longer, real interest rates are lower. Look at
0:39:34 > 0:39:38the 5000 pension schemes in the UK. Most of them have already closed and
0:39:38 > 0:39:42moved from defined benefit to defined contribution and I have to
0:39:42 > 0:39:46say, that includes the pension schemes of a lot of the individual
0:39:46 > 0:39:50universities so if you are a clerical employee at university you
0:39:50 > 0:39:56are in a different scheme and the lot of those aboard a close.Do you
0:39:56 > 0:39:59support the strike, Margaret?I think this is an issue... Let me
0:39:59 > 0:40:02deal with the actuarial position first. I think that would be
0:40:02 > 0:40:06agreement across the two parties as to the precise actuarial position.
0:40:06 > 0:40:09These judgments so they should both do it and then they should get on
0:40:09 > 0:40:13and negotiated top I agree that people are living longer, interest
0:40:13 > 0:40:18rates are low and therefore moving from defined contribution... From
0:40:18 > 0:40:23benefits to a contribution system is important. But at the back of all of
0:40:23 > 0:40:26this, it sticks in the gullet, at the same time as academics who are
0:40:26 > 0:40:32not well paid are being asked to give up their pension, you have vice
0:40:32 > 0:40:36chancellors on huge, hefty sums of money which will give them very,
0:40:36 > 0:40:44very generous pensions when they come out of...Do you agree, Tom
0:40:44 > 0:40:47Tugendhat? Do you have any sympathy for this strike or do you think
0:40:47 > 0:40:52people like these should get back to work?I have a huge sympathy while
0:40:52 > 0:40:55students losing education, I have huge sympathy for people who planned
0:40:55 > 0:40:58the future and find out is not going to be as it appeared. But the
0:40:58 > 0:41:02reality is that we are living longer and that is a great thing, it gives
0:41:02 > 0:41:08grandparents time with their children, a lot of people a lot more
0:41:08 > 0:41:11time with families, and that is fantastic news but it does mean we
0:41:11 > 0:41:14need to change the way we do things. Can you think of any other strike
0:41:14 > 0:41:16that has happened as a result of closing a final salary scheme that
0:41:16 > 0:41:22has resulted in a change? I can't see any change that has
0:41:22 > 0:41:25happened where we are talking about a thriving, multi-billion
0:41:25 > 0:41:28contributions of the British economy.So you don't take on board
0:41:28 > 0:41:32the whole point about living longer, but these schemes are much more
0:41:32 > 0:41:37expensive as a result of that? People are living longer but,
0:41:37 > 0:41:40actually, that is one reason why you should have a good pension, because
0:41:40 > 0:41:45I think, as Margaret said, we are not well paid. University lecturers
0:41:45 > 0:41:50and support staff don't go into this to make lots of money. We have not
0:41:50 > 0:41:55got a generous pension scheme even now. We are defending something that
0:41:55 > 0:41:58is good but is not the best. The teachers' pension scheme is much
0:41:58 > 0:42:03better than ours at the moment and if we see the decline in our
0:42:03 > 0:42:08pensions scheme, how are we going to recruit the brilliant academics that
0:42:08 > 0:42:12are actually making this a success across the world? After Brexit we
0:42:12 > 0:42:17will need to have the best researchers, the best universities,
0:42:17 > 0:42:21to compete.We have to finish it there. John Ralfe and Keith Simpson,
0:42:21 > 0:42:24thank you very much.
0:42:24 > 0:42:26Now, staying in higher education, a graduate is suing her former
0:42:26 > 0:42:28university for giving her what she called
0:42:28 > 0:42:29a "Mickey Mouse degree."
0:42:29 > 0:42:30Fiona Pok studied International Business Strategy
0:42:30 > 0:42:32at Anglia Ruskin University, in Cambridge, but she says
0:42:32 > 0:42:35that the claims in the prospectus about high-quality teaching
0:42:35 > 0:42:36and excellent career prospects were overblown.
0:42:36 > 0:42:41And she joins us now.
0:42:41 > 0:42:44In particular, what do you think Anglia Ruskin misrepresented in the
0:42:44 > 0:42:50prospectus?In my opinion, the University misrepresented the course
0:42:50 > 0:42:55as to the quality of the course and also what kind of resources they
0:42:55 > 0:42:59have. They misrepresented the prospect of a career, what kind of
0:42:59 > 0:43:04job or what area you will end up in, working in, after you graduate from
0:43:04 > 0:43:07the course.Have you had any joy with getting a job, having
0:43:07 > 0:43:14graduated?Well, I know a lot of people misunderstood that I have not
0:43:14 > 0:43:19been able to get a job at the thing is, the main point is, they
0:43:19 > 0:43:23exaggerated the prospects of a career, studying with them, and also
0:43:23 > 0:43:31they exaggerate how connected the network the has with, like,
0:43:31 > 0:43:35regional, national or international companies because at that time they
0:43:35 > 0:43:40say they will help students or graduates to find employment in a
0:43:40 > 0:43:43lot of the big companies because they have a connection with them.
0:43:43 > 0:43:49What I found was so misrepresented is, when I finished my study I
0:43:49 > 0:43:52signed on at the career advice bureau and tried to get some career
0:43:52 > 0:43:57advice to see if any job opportunities that I was hoping to
0:43:57 > 0:44:01land on, and I find out the only source they had was copy and pasted
0:44:01 > 0:44:05from other companies, the recruitment agencies already
0:44:05 > 0:44:08available on the internet, accessible by the public.How much
0:44:08 > 0:44:15are you suing them for?I am suing them for over £60,000.And you think
0:44:15 > 0:44:18that is justified, for students to decide the quality of teaching and
0:44:18 > 0:44:23whether it is satisfactory? You graduated with a first, I
0:44:23 > 0:44:26understand. Is it really the responsibility of Anglia Ruskin to
0:44:26 > 0:44:31guarantee you a job in the way you have just outlined?I think you
0:44:31 > 0:44:34misunderstood. I am not saying they have to guarantee me a job but they
0:44:34 > 0:44:38have no right to make empty promises if they have no capacity to deliver
0:44:38 > 0:44:44them.They have released a statement saying, "We are well aware of the
0:44:44 > 0:44:49claims made by this former student and robustly defending the current
0:44:49 > 0:44:54litigation". Has the university been supportive in your concerns?What do
0:44:54 > 0:44:57you mean?I mean, have they understood... Before you decided to
0:44:57 > 0:45:02take the action to sue, did you talk to the university about your
0:45:02 > 0:45:06concerns?Of course. I have been talking to them for over six years.
0:45:06 > 0:45:11Internal complaints, external complaints procedure has been gone
0:45:11 > 0:45:15through, so there was no other thing I could do.All right, thank you
0:45:15 > 0:45:18very much for joining us.
0:45:18 > 0:45:21Comic Relief - or Red Nose Day as it's better known -
0:45:21 > 0:45:23has raised over £1 billion for charities around the world
0:45:23 > 0:45:24since it began 30 years ago.
0:45:24 > 0:45:26Its subsidiary, Sport Relief, returns this weekend,
0:45:26 > 0:45:28encouraging the public to "get active, raise money
0:45:28 > 0:45:29"and change lives".
0:45:29 > 0:45:32But Labour MP David Lammy questions whether it's doing enough.
0:45:32 > 0:45:35This is his Soapbox.
0:45:35 > 0:45:36KLAXON
0:45:36 > 0:45:39CHEERING
0:45:40 > 0:45:44From this weekend, thousands of Britons will be raising
0:45:44 > 0:45:49money for Sport Relief, a biannual telephone that asks
0:45:49 > 0:45:53Britons all over the country to part with their cash to help
0:45:53 > 0:45:59poverty stricken Africans.
0:45:59 > 0:46:02Sport Relief and Comic Relief have tattooed images of poverty in Africa
0:46:02 > 0:46:06into our national psyche to such an extent that few of us can escape
0:46:06 > 0:46:12the guilt of not donating.
0:46:12 > 0:46:17A billion people reduced to just one prevailing image -
0:46:17 > 0:46:22mothers, desperate, crying, worried for their children,
0:46:22 > 0:46:25and children with swollen bellies, hungry.
0:46:25 > 0:46:31This is not to say that dire poverty is not persistent,
0:46:31 > 0:46:33or that images of suffering is not the most effective
0:46:33 > 0:46:36way to raise money.
0:46:36 > 0:46:42But Sport Relief surely has to be different.
0:46:42 > 0:46:48Life expectancies are up over 10% in 37 African states.
0:46:48 > 0:46:52Economic growth in the 11 largest sub-Saharan countries
0:46:52 > 0:46:57was double the world average in the past decade.
0:46:57 > 0:47:00The Nigerian film industry, Nollywood, has overtaken Hollywood
0:47:00 > 0:47:06as the world's second-largest movie-maker.
0:47:06 > 0:47:10Sport Relief should be helping to establish the people of Africa
0:47:10 > 0:47:15as equals to be respected, not as victims to be pitied.
0:47:15 > 0:47:19So, rather than getting celebrities to act as tour guides,
0:47:19 > 0:47:23why not get Africans to talk for themselves about the continent
0:47:23 > 0:47:26and the problems that they know?
0:47:26 > 0:47:31CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:47:31 > 0:47:33Sport Relief and Comic Relief should do more
0:47:33 > 0:47:36to challenge their audience.
0:47:36 > 0:47:42Challenge their audience not just to feel guilty but to feel angry.
0:47:42 > 0:47:46Angry that despite the wars that plague the continent,
0:47:46 > 0:47:48the international world places more restrictions on bananas
0:47:48 > 0:47:54than they do AK-47s.
0:47:54 > 0:47:58Get their audience thinking about trade and about governance.
0:47:58 > 0:48:01Don't just present a reservoir of poverty but help people
0:48:01 > 0:48:05understand what sustained change really means.
0:48:05 > 0:48:09So, this year, let's have a debate about the big issues -
0:48:09 > 0:48:13trade, dictatorship, debt, education -
0:48:13 > 0:48:15in the continent of Africa.
0:48:15 > 0:48:19Of course the fundraising is worthwhile but the Red Nose Day
0:48:19 > 0:48:22formula is tired and hugely patronising to the people
0:48:22 > 0:48:28of a great continent.
0:48:28 > 0:48:30David Lammy is here, as is Ben Maitland,
0:48:30 > 0:48:37a spokesperson for Comic Relief.
0:48:37 > 0:48:42It's tired and hugely patronising. What do you think about Comic Relief
0:48:42 > 0:48:46and Sport Relief?We wouldn't accept that and we've been looking at the
0:48:46 > 0:48:49very issues David is talking about and we are constantly seeking to
0:48:49 > 0:48:53change how we make our funds. We are very excited and proud of the
0:48:53 > 0:48:58changes we've been making and we are going to see for the first time real
0:48:58 > 0:49:03focus on local voices and local heroes be they community health
0:49:03 > 0:49:07workers or nurses, talking about the work they're doing. Equally it is
0:49:07 > 0:49:15important remember Sport Relief is 50% is spent here and 50% is spent
0:49:15 > 0:49:19internationally. In particular over the last couple of weeks, we've been
0:49:19 > 0:49:22really proud of the public debate, exactly the type of debate David
0:49:22 > 0:49:28talks about, that both Zoe Ball and Greg James have sparked about mental
0:49:28 > 0:49:35health.I'm always amazed about the amount of money raised and the
0:49:35 > 0:49:40generosity of people here. Doesn't it prove it works? It is all very
0:49:40 > 0:49:45well questioning whether or not it is the right tone, or should we talk
0:49:45 > 0:49:48about trade and dictatorship, but this is raising money for poor parts
0:49:48 > 0:49:53of the world and it works.It doesn't work if it compounds the
0:49:53 > 0:49:57problem is. My constituents are not am elated about Sport Relief and,
0:49:57 > 0:50:01grief because many of them come from African countries and they know
0:50:01 > 0:50:07that, as Leeds University knows that British primary school children,
0:50:07 > 0:50:10their formative impressions of Africa come from Red Nose Day and
0:50:10 > 0:50:15what they talk about people who are starving, people who are poor and
0:50:15 > 0:50:19victims.Are they not accurate? We've just heard that Sport Relief
0:50:19 > 0:50:23and Comic Relief are happy to use British voices articulating on
0:50:23 > 0:50:28behalf of themselves in relation to British poverty. They don't use that
0:50:28 > 0:50:31in relation to Africans and their issues which is what they need to be
0:50:31 > 0:50:37pushed on.It is those local heroes, albeit in Kenny or Sierra Leone,
0:50:37 > 0:50:42that will be at the heart of the forms we are making. They will be
0:50:42 > 0:50:49talking about our partnerships. We have a generational opportunity to
0:50:49 > 0:50:53eradicate an appalling disease and we're working with global partners
0:50:53 > 0:50:57and local workers on the ground, and telling their story.The important
0:50:57 > 0:51:01thing to remember with Comic Relief and Sport Relief is the platform
0:51:01 > 0:51:06they have from the BBC is immense, no other charity gets hours and
0:51:06 > 0:51:11hours of programming and television to influence the dish public. No one
0:51:11 > 0:51:15wants to knock charity but let's remember that the dire spread
0:51:15 > 0:51:24communities right around the world, let's educate the public, why is it
0:51:24 > 0:51:29when people think of Nigeria think of somewhere that is war-torn, not
0:51:29 > 0:51:35with downtown Lagos with huge buildings. And what role do
0:51:35 > 0:51:38charities play in perpetuating an image of swollen bellies, children
0:51:38 > 0:51:44with flies running around them? Last time on Comic Relief, you had three
0:51:44 > 0:51:47black children die over the hours. You wouldn't have done that if it
0:51:47 > 0:51:52was Britain. But it was OK because it was a black child. That is the
0:51:52 > 0:51:58thing we have to question.Well, I think it is right we continue to
0:51:58 > 0:52:02change and evolve and we put local voices at the heart of what we show.
0:52:02 > 0:52:08Ed Sheeran? He isn't local, Izzy?We will see differences in how our
0:52:08 > 0:52:13films are made this year. We currently fund 1,000 different
0:52:13 > 0:52:17charities and organisations here and around the world and our obligation
0:52:17 > 0:52:21is to continue raising money so we continue that vital work to make
0:52:21 > 0:52:25sure the money gets to people who needed.How is it vital if it
0:52:25 > 0:52:30continues a perception of a kind of imperialist colonialist... You seen
0:52:30 > 0:52:34the problems charities have found themselves in where there is a
0:52:34 > 0:52:39perception of who is accountable? How is their scrutiny? How do you
0:52:39 > 0:52:44hold yourself up to the best of your intentions? Those are the big issues
0:52:44 > 0:52:48that are emerging for International development.And that is exactly how
0:52:48 > 0:52:54we found grassroots organisations to make sure that money goes where it
0:52:54 > 0:53:01is needed most. So we seek money from grant-making so we ensure there
0:53:01 > 0:53:05is a strong voice in what we do. What about the issue of trade? What
0:53:05 > 0:53:11would you like to see governments to?We need a transaction tax. And I
0:53:11 > 0:53:14think the international development charities should be very public
0:53:14 > 0:53:19about that. There are problems in the ways big institutions like the
0:53:19 > 0:53:23EU are set up that put a stranglehold on African countries.
0:53:23 > 0:53:27You should be up against it for lobbing politically as well as
0:53:27 > 0:53:31saying give money.Would you be comfortable doing that?We are not a
0:53:31 > 0:53:35political organisation and we are proud not to be. I'm part of the
0:53:35 > 0:53:38generation that grew up with Comic Relief and remember the first Red
0:53:38 > 0:53:43Nose Day back in 1988 so what we've done is bring a whole generation of
0:53:43 > 0:53:47people back into these issues you haven't paid much attention before
0:53:47 > 0:53:54and we are proud of that. And to see how people we've inspired are
0:53:54 > 0:53:56engaging is great. Amnesty International have a stronger
0:53:56 > 0:54:02political voice and they do it better than we should.I think that
0:54:02 > 0:54:05relief is something we've done is a government and we've done it in a
0:54:05 > 0:54:08targeted manner because what we don't want to do is giving debt
0:54:08 > 0:54:13interest into a dictator but to a country that is growing. David was
0:54:13 > 0:54:17right because he talks about trade. One of the things were doing is
0:54:17 > 0:54:23we're rethinking our trade you disease-mac policy. I'd like to see
0:54:23 > 0:54:26Barry is coming down to trade with countries like Ghana and run wonder
0:54:26 > 0:54:32that have done and commenced amount of reform locally and are poised to
0:54:32 > 0:54:35exploit this link with the United Kingdom. I'd like to see those
0:54:35 > 0:54:40countries getting richer.Isn't there a problem to attaching
0:54:40 > 0:54:42conditions to aid with the poor parts of Africa because they may
0:54:42 > 0:54:45have a dictator? A lot of these countries are run by dictators and
0:54:45 > 0:54:50you deprive the countries of the money you need.We should challenge
0:54:50 > 0:54:53corruption where ever it exists but I would say a very simple thing that
0:54:53 > 0:54:57we could do which could help even more than you do through charitable
0:54:57 > 0:55:02giving and that is another amendment to the bill we were talking about
0:55:02 > 0:55:07earlier on money-laundering. If we had transparency in our overseas
0:55:07 > 0:55:16territories, our tax havens, at a stroke you to stop money being
0:55:16 > 0:55:22exported by those dictators into the tax havens. These poor countries
0:55:22 > 0:55:27lose three times as much in money from tax avoidance as they gain in
0:55:27 > 0:55:30development aid.On that, thank you for coming in.
0:55:30 > 0:55:33There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.
0:55:33 > 0:55:35The question was which poster have Transport for London banned
0:55:35 > 0:55:36from their Tube stations?
0:55:36 > 0:55:38Was it...
0:55:38 > 0:55:39A job advert for leader of Ukip?
0:55:39 > 0:55:42A commercial to tempt young people to join Conservative?
0:55:42 > 0:55:43An advert for Corbyn memorabilia?
0:55:43 > 0:55:45Or an attempt to entice business people to move
0:55:45 > 0:55:46France following Brexit?
0:55:46 > 0:55:49So, what's the correct answer?
0:55:49 > 0:55:55It's got to be France.You're right! You're so pleased with yourselves
0:55:55 > 0:55:56and good for you.
0:55:56 > 0:55:58Yes, a spoof lonely hearts advert telling British businesses
0:55:58 > 0:56:03to contact Mr Norman D to avoid post-Brexit tariffs
0:56:03 > 0:56:07has appeared online but banned by Transport for London
0:56:07 > 0:56:09on the grounds of "public controversy or sensitivity."
0:56:09 > 0:56:12The advert, released by the Normandy Development Agency,
0:56:12 > 0:56:15which promotes growth in the region of northern France,
0:56:15 > 0:56:19seeks "hot entrepreneurs" and boasts "You will find the process
0:56:19 > 0:56:24"as smooth as our Camembert or our oysters, for that matter."
0:56:24 > 0:56:29French journalist Marie Le Conte is here.
0:56:29 > 0:56:33It is actually quite funny, isn't it? Do you think transport for
0:56:33 > 0:56:38London has had a sense of humour loss?I think they did. I am
0:56:38 > 0:56:42entirely biased on this because my family is from Normandy, but I
0:56:42 > 0:56:48thought it was
0:56:49 > 0:56:50thought it was very funny. The Brits can dish it out but can't take it,
0:56:50 > 0:56:52clearly.It is a light-hearted attempt, but do you think it will
0:56:52 > 0:56:54work?I'm not sure and I mean it with love. Normandy isn't the most
0:56:54 > 0:57:03exciting bit of France.It does seem to be cheeky, audacious at the very
0:57:03 > 0:57:08least. Or may be imaginative by the local Mormon tea Council.It is and
0:57:08 > 0:57:13they make a valid point that there is so much incentive for businesses
0:57:13 > 0:57:18in the UK, and businesses might be looking to move somewhere else, so
0:57:18 > 0:57:23there is a real pointer.Is it a false promise? All this idea of
0:57:23 > 0:57:30smooth camembert and oysters and coastal walks. Do you think it is
0:57:30 > 0:57:36really fake news?I mean... Not really. The one thing I'll say is
0:57:36 > 0:57:40the weather is basically the same in Normandy as in the UK so no big
0:57:40 > 0:57:45changes there. It isn't fake news. Businesses would be perfectly happy
0:57:45 > 0:57:49in Normandy should they want to move there.Right, you two, is transport
0:57:49 > 0:57:54for London not joining in the fun? Or is there a serious point? I think
0:57:54 > 0:57:59they've taken it too hard here. I think Normandy is a fantastic place
0:57:59 > 0:58:06freight holiday but not the centre of business as London is. Each to
0:58:06 > 0:58:10their own. I don't know any camembert manufacturers in London
0:58:10 > 0:58:13but perhaps I'm wrong. Oyster growth is actually coming back to the
0:58:13 > 0:58:20Thames.What would your counterproposal be? What would you
0:58:20 > 0:58:22do to make sure British entrepreneurs stay here?I think
0:58:22 > 0:58:27they should move to Kent.English cheese is coming into its own at the
0:58:27 > 0:58:31moment so it may well be our version of camembert is the as tasty as the
0:58:31 > 0:58:36French but I think transport for London have gone too far. This is
0:58:36 > 0:58:39Brexit, we are expecting competition with people who have been partners,
0:58:39 > 0:58:45they are now our competitors. We should not be surprised.You have
0:58:45 > 0:58:47left me hungry with camembert, oysters and English cheese. Thank
0:58:47 > 0:58:49you all very much.
0:58:49 > 0:58:50Thanks to our guests.
0:58:50 > 0:58:53The one o'clock news is starting over on BBC One now.
0:58:53 > 0:58:56I'll be here at noon tomorrow with all the big political stories
0:58:56 > 0:58:57of the day.
0:58:57 > 0:58:58Do join me then.