0:00:35 > 0:00:37Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:00:37 > 0:00:40Tit for tat.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43Russia has said it will expel UK diplomats "soon" in retaliation
0:00:43 > 0:00:46to Britain expelling 23 Russian diplomats.
0:00:46 > 0:00:49With Theresa May set to visit Salisbury later today,
0:00:49 > 0:00:51where the former Russian double agent and his daughter were
0:00:51 > 0:00:59poisoned, has she gone far enough?
0:00:59 > 0:01:00Has Jeremy Corbyn misjudged his response
0:01:00 > 0:01:03to the attack, after failing to back Theresa May's decision
0:01:03 > 0:01:05to blame Russia?
0:01:05 > 0:01:07The Labour leader upset some of his backbenches
0:01:07 > 0:01:10by appearing to echo the Moscow line that more time
0:01:10 > 0:01:12and more evidence was needed to prove Putin really was responsible.
0:01:12 > 0:01:17In the light of the allegations of widespread child sexual
0:01:17 > 0:01:20exploitation in the Shropshire town of Telford, including cases
0:01:20 > 0:01:23involving girls as young as 11, we'll be speaking
0:01:23 > 0:01:26to their MP about it.
0:01:26 > 0:01:29And how did Vladimir Putin rise from a lowly KGB colonel
0:01:29 > 0:01:32to become one of the world's most powerful leaders?
0:01:32 > 0:01:35We'll be speaking to one of the world's leading experts
0:01:35 > 0:01:38about power and psychology.
0:01:42 > 0:01:47All that in the next hour and with me throughout is the former
0:01:47 > 0:01:48Home and Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51Welcome back to the programme.
0:01:51 > 0:01:56Thank you.
0:01:56 > 0:01:58First today, the Brexit Secretary David Davis has indicated
0:01:58 > 0:02:01he's willing to be flexible on the length of the transition
0:02:01 > 0:02:03period after the UK leaves the EU next year.
0:02:03 > 0:02:07The British government had argued it wanted a two year implimentation
0:02:07 > 0:02:09period where Britain follows similar trading rules to now to give
0:02:09 > 0:02:13businesses time to get ready before we leave.
0:02:13 > 0:02:16Brussels, however, wants a shorter time.
0:02:16 > 0:02:18Here he is talking to Newsnight's Nick Watt last night.
0:02:18 > 0:02:21I'm not bothered, too much about the question of whether it's
0:02:21 > 0:02:23Christmas 2020 or Easter 2021.
0:02:23 > 0:02:26So, if it means Christmas 2020, you'd live with that?
0:02:26 > 0:02:27I would live with that.
0:02:27 > 0:02:29But, this is...
0:02:29 > 0:02:32We're still in the middle of a negotiation but, frankly,
0:02:32 > 0:02:35what I would not do is delay the decision, as it were,
0:02:35 > 0:02:41in order to get a month or two more.
0:02:44 > 0:02:48David Davis, the Brexit secretary. He seems pretty relaxed about the
0:02:48 > 0:02:51timescale of the implementation period. You can paint to remain in
0:02:51 > 0:02:59the EU.I did.As many Labour people dead. The sky hasn't fallen in since
0:02:59 > 0:03:04the referendum? It hasn't. -- as many Labour people did.We have
0:03:04 > 0:03:09dropped to the bottom of the Labour G20, the major industrialised
0:03:09 > 0:03:13countries in the world. We are at the bottom of them in terms of
0:03:13 > 0:03:18growth. Although the predictions made at the time of the referendum
0:03:18 > 0:03:22the immediate problems were not fulfilled, that's true. We were in a
0:03:22 > 0:03:27period of a kind of phoney situation for about a year where things just
0:03:27 > 0:03:32carried on. There isn't any doubt about the fact now that Brexit is
0:03:32 > 0:03:36having a significant impact on our output. No question about that.
0:03:36 > 0:03:40Despite that, people can point to high levels of unemployment and low
0:03:40 > 0:03:45levels of unemployment. But in terms of growth, we had a trend for years
0:03:45 > 0:03:53about 2% to 2.5%. That is down to 1.5%. That might be a small
0:03:53 > 0:03:56percentage but it involves big numbers. It means there is less tax
0:03:56 > 0:04:00revenue for the government to spend. Although tax receipts have been at.
0:04:00 > 0:04:04But not as much as they would have been. There is less money in
0:04:04 > 0:04:09people's pockets.How much did people care, people who voted to
0:04:09 > 0:04:14leave about the big macro figures, about whether growth is up or down
0:04:14 > 0:04:19by a few percentage points? Despite what you say, the Dow hasn't moved
0:04:19 > 0:04:23that dramatically. Labour has moved its position on the customs union,
0:04:23 > 0:04:27saying it would now like to have one with EU. Do you think they will move
0:04:27 > 0:04:32any further when it comes to the single market, they have said not?I
0:04:32 > 0:04:38doubt it. Keir Starmer, our shadow Brexit secretary, he is somebody who
0:04:38 > 0:04:43is very bright, good judgment and a safe pair of hands. Yes, he has
0:04:43 > 0:04:48moved the party's position to a customs union. I doubt we will move
0:04:48 > 0:04:52to the single market. The problem that about the single market, if you
0:04:52 > 0:04:57join it, I would like that, people will say, why don't we rejoin the
0:04:57 > 0:05:04EU? That is a very big question. On your point about as the dial moved
0:05:04 > 0:05:08on people's voting preferences, not much by all accounts. No doubt that
0:05:08 > 0:05:14for a lot of people who voted Brexit, this was done out of a sense
0:05:14 > 0:05:19that not so much about the economic detail, but they wanted "To take
0:05:19 > 0:05:23back control". That was very powerful as a slogan, more than a
0:05:23 > 0:05:30slogan. I think that tipped the balance in the last week of the
0:05:30 > 0:05:34campaign in favour of Brexit.Do you think backbench Labour MPs have
0:05:34 > 0:05:39confidence in Jeremy Corbyn's view on the EU?His position has shifted,
0:05:39 > 0:05:43they probably do. Keir Starmer is the person leading that.You will
0:05:43 > 0:05:48leave it there. -- we will leave it there.
0:05:48 > 0:05:49Moscow says it's still considering how to retaliate,
0:05:49 > 0:05:51following Britain's decision to expel 23 Russian diplomats.
0:05:51 > 0:05:54The Russian Foreign Ministry said measures would be implemented
0:05:54 > 0:05:55as soon as possible.
0:05:55 > 0:05:57This morning, the British Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson,
0:05:57 > 0:06:00said international allies are key.
0:06:00 > 0:06:02There's a global disgust at what has happened.
0:06:02 > 0:06:08And that's very important.
0:06:08 > 0:06:11And we will continue to make the case to our friends and
0:06:11 > 0:06:12allies that, as a...
0:06:12 > 0:06:18As a committee of nations, we need to stand up to Russia.
0:06:18 > 0:06:20As the Foreign Secretary said, Britain is busy building
0:06:20 > 0:06:26an international coalition to strike back against Russia.
0:06:26 > 0:06:28The Nato council will meet in Brussels today to discuss
0:06:28 > 0:06:31the Salisbury attack.
0:06:31 > 0:06:33And last night, Donald Trump's ambassador to the UN, Nikki Haley,
0:06:33 > 0:06:36gave a powerful denunciation of Russia at a security
0:06:36 > 0:06:37council meeting.
0:06:37 > 0:06:39Let me make one thing clear, from the very beginning.
0:06:39 > 0:06:44The United States stands in absolute solidarity with Great Britain.
0:06:44 > 0:06:49The United States believes that Russia is responsible for the attack
0:06:49 > 0:06:53on two people in the United Kingdom, using a military grade nerve agent.
0:06:53 > 0:06:58Dozens of civilians and first responders were also exposed.
0:06:58 > 0:07:01Police officer Nick Bailey was the first to arrive on the scene
0:07:01 > 0:07:06and remains hospitalised in serious condition.
0:07:06 > 0:07:08Our thoughts and prayers go out to the victims
0:07:08 > 0:07:12of this atrocious crime.
0:07:12 > 0:07:14And beyond the United States, leaders around the world have
0:07:14 > 0:07:16been quick to react.
0:07:16 > 0:07:21Germany's new Foreign Minister Heiko Maas said:
0:07:21 > 0:07:24"We take the assessment of the British government
0:07:24 > 0:07:27Moscow should be ready to be transparent ...
0:07:27 > 0:07:29And it is clear this cannot go without consequences."
0:07:29 > 0:07:31Canadian Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau,
0:07:31 > 0:07:32was clear who was responsible.
0:07:32 > 0:07:36He said:
0:07:36 > 0:07:37"The attack is despicable...
0:07:37 > 0:07:38Russia's likely involvement in this is also
0:07:38 > 0:07:39absolutely unacceptable
0:07:39 > 0:07:41and needs to be condemned in the strongest terms."
0:07:41 > 0:07:44And, despite some innitial reticence yesterday to blame Russia,
0:07:44 > 0:07:47French President Emmanuel Macron said this morning:
0:07:48 > 0:07:49"France agrees with the United Kingdom
0:07:49 > 0:07:51that there is no other plausible explanation and reiterates
0:07:51 > 0:07:55its solidarity with its ally."
0:07:55 > 0:07:57Joining us now is former British ambassador
0:07:57 > 0:07:59to Russia Sir Tony Brenton, and Russian journalist
0:07:59 > 0:08:05Tonia Samsanova.
0:08:05 > 0:08:13Welcome to both of you. Tony, you were Russian ambassador in 2006,
0:08:13 > 0:08:18that was when Alexander Litvinenko was poisoned. After his death, there
0:08:18 > 0:08:21were also expressions of support from world leaders, European
0:08:21 > 0:08:27leaders. Did they follow through with any meaningful action?Jack, I
0:08:27 > 0:08:30had the privilege of working for him for many years, can I greet him?You
0:08:30 > 0:08:36may.We got lots of warm words from the Americans and our European
0:08:36 > 0:08:42allies after the Alexander Litvinenko murder. The Americans
0:08:42 > 0:08:45were willing to follow through with substantive action, we played with
0:08:45 > 0:08:50the idea of throwing out a rush of the G8. The Europeans were much more
0:08:50 > 0:08:55disappointing, warm words but not much else. -- throwing Russia out.
0:08:55 > 0:08:58Will that be the case this time round despite the declarations of
0:08:58 > 0:09:04support that we had from the likes of Germany and now France?I hope
0:09:04 > 0:09:07not. The political context is different, Russia has sunk to the
0:09:07 > 0:09:10bottom of the international league table in terms of trust in
0:09:10 > 0:09:17popularity. The EU already extensive sanctions against Russia. I am sure
0:09:17 > 0:09:20we are working very hard saying what happened in Salisbury ten days ago
0:09:20 > 0:09:26could easily happen in Frankfurt or Avignon tomorrow. There are obvious
0:09:26 > 0:09:31things EU Ken Duke, most notably when you its own sanctions on Russia
0:09:31 > 0:09:35-- can do, most notably. For an extended period. We are working hard
0:09:35 > 0:09:41to do that.Is this what Vladimir Putin wants? What is the motivation
0:09:41 > 0:09:46behind what people call the level of distrust, disruption and deflection
0:09:46 > 0:09:51by Moscow?I regret to say that I think that what is going on is the
0:09:51 > 0:09:55best present for Vladimir Putin before the elections on this Sunday
0:09:55 > 0:10:01held in Moscow. Putin's campaign is based on the theory that Russia is
0:10:01 > 0:10:04surrounded by enemies and the European countries and the United
0:10:04 > 0:10:09States are in a situation where they want to invade Russia and they
0:10:09 > 0:10:12present a real threat to the country and he is the only leader that can
0:10:12 > 0:10:17do something with it. Before the Salisbury accident, there was no
0:10:17 > 0:10:21hint that anybody in the United Kingdom or in France actually cares
0:10:21 > 0:10:28about invading Russia. But now, when we have ministers and all sorts of,
0:10:28 > 0:10:31like, very high-profile defence ministers and foreign leaders saying
0:10:31 > 0:10:35that Russia should be punished or we should reunite against Russia the
0:10:35 > 0:10:41only thing the propaganda channel needs to do is transcript it,
0:10:41 > 0:10:45translated into Russian and show it before election day.That is the
0:10:45 > 0:10:48problem, Tony. You said yourself the political situation is different,
0:10:48 > 0:10:53the level of mistrust is much greater. But actually there is still
0:10:53 > 0:11:00a massive leap between what Tonia is said, Russia was being ignored
0:11:00 > 0:11:05largely, there was no tough action talk, bearing -- bearing in mind
0:11:05 > 0:11:09their actions in Syria, the annexation of Crimea and involvement
0:11:09 > 0:11:13in the Ukraine but this attack in Salisbury is a game change in your
0:11:13 > 0:11:19mind?Absolutely. Tonia is right. Putin was always going to win those
0:11:19 > 0:11:23elections even though this reinforces his victory. She is also
0:11:23 > 0:11:27right that in the west, we will have to find ways of getting tensions
0:11:27 > 0:11:33with Russia down. We are on the edge of a new Cold War. We all remember
0:11:33 > 0:11:37how dangerous and expensive the old one was. That is expensive but long
0:11:37 > 0:11:40term. Immediately, we need to demonstrate the Russians that
0:11:40 > 0:11:44outrageous attacks such as that that took place in Salisbury ten days ago
0:11:44 > 0:11:47cannot be permitted and the international community will react.
0:11:47 > 0:11:54Tonia?It depends on what British society and Pollard wants to
0:11:54 > 0:11:58achieve. If you want to persuade your people that Russia is bringing
0:11:58 > 0:12:02a nerve threat to the citizens of this country and no such kind of
0:12:02 > 0:12:05attack on this soil can happen there is one way to do it -- British
0:12:05 > 0:12:08society and Parliament wants to achieve. If the goal that you want
0:12:08 > 0:12:13to achieve is to punish them and say this cannot happen any time soon or
0:12:13 > 0:12:17you can't do that, then there it is different sorts of actions that
0:12:17 > 0:12:25could be implemented. Obviously, as a Russian citizen, I feel extremely
0:12:25 > 0:12:28sorry for the British people, for the fact that probably my country
0:12:28 > 0:12:34did that to you. I feel really bad about that and I feel ashamed of
0:12:34 > 0:12:39that. But on the other hand, we are dealing with the government, which
0:12:39 > 0:12:44has some buttons which you should push on. Why are you not doing that?
0:12:44 > 0:12:50Right.Instead, I am a mother of three children, I don't want a new
0:12:50 > 0:12:54war to happen. Why would we extend the attention now?Are we on the
0:12:54 > 0:13:01edge of a new Cold War we already in it?As Tony suggested, we are on the
0:13:01 > 0:13:05edge. Tonia, no one is threatening invasion of Russia. To point out, is
0:13:05 > 0:13:09the only country that has been invaded in Europe recently, Ukraine,
0:13:09 > 0:13:14was invaded by Russia, not by the west. I wanted to ask you, you are
0:13:14 > 0:13:20suggesting that this poisoning in Salisbury has played into Putin's
0:13:20 > 0:13:25hands, do you think that was one of the motives of those in the GR you
0:13:25 > 0:13:32who organised it in order to help Putin? -- in the GRU.I can only
0:13:32 > 0:13:37speculate. I don't have evidence or clues but one of the explanations
0:13:37 > 0:13:40I've find reasonable, we have to bear in mind that the Kremlin
0:13:40 > 0:13:44administration and GRU are parties of the Russian government. They
0:13:44 > 0:13:48don't like each other. GRU don't like the Foreign Office. They think
0:13:48 > 0:13:56of others, they don't speak to each other. They can't possibly
0:13:56 > 0:14:03coordinate things. I am absolutely sure that probably Mr Lavrov, the
0:14:03 > 0:14:08Foreign Secretary and even the head of the Kremlin knew from the news
0:14:08 > 0:14:11and the embassy that actually something happened in Salisbury.
0:14:11 > 0:14:16Because they don't brief each other. Thinking that GRU would be thinking
0:14:16 > 0:14:21about the elections is quite unlikely to happen. Because it's not
0:14:21 > 0:14:25their responsibility.But they all work in silos. We talked about
0:14:25 > 0:14:28Sergey Lavrov having a certain amount of influence but how far does
0:14:28 > 0:14:33that go.Sergey Lavrov is a very distinguished and experienced
0:14:33 > 0:14:38international diplomat but he's not part of the so-called St Petersburg
0:14:38 > 0:14:42Mafia. Tony knows about that. He is not part of the inner clique.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45Because of the intelligence agencies in Russia, he would have had no
0:14:45 > 0:14:51knowledge of all...He has to react. He is a spokesman for these
0:14:51 > 0:14:56purposes.Looking ahead, Tony, we had news that the Nato chief is
0:14:56 > 0:15:02going to meet Boris Johnson again. Part of Britain's attempts to build
0:15:02 > 0:15:07some sort of coalition. Again, beyond invoking article five, which
0:15:07 > 0:15:10we have already heard from Nato that it feels this is the right moment
0:15:10 > 0:15:16for that, what else could there be? I have said what the EU could be
0:15:16 > 0:15:22doing in renewing and extending sanctions. We will introduce
0:15:22 > 0:15:27measures against Russian with illicit money in London and I hope
0:15:27 > 0:15:30the Americans and others will note the names we have got and will act
0:15:30 > 0:15:35similarly. There is a cluster of things like that. The key target of
0:15:35 > 0:15:39our actions has been and this comes back to something Tonia was saying
0:15:39 > 0:15:46has been the GRU. We have kicked out 23 people from the Russian Embassy
0:15:46 > 0:15:52who were certainly agents of two key Russian intelligence agencies. The
0:15:52 > 0:15:56aim of that is to severely damage their ability to operate in London
0:15:56 > 0:16:01and I imagine that the extent of the expulsions have come as a shock to
0:16:01 > 0:16:05the Russians, the aim being to discourage them from doing this
0:16:05 > 0:16:09again. I'm sure we will be communicating with the Americans and
0:16:09 > 0:16:14the Europeans these names and encouraging them to get tougher on
0:16:14 > 0:16:20the Russian intelligence presences in their countries.Before I get
0:16:20 > 0:16:25Tonia's response as to how hard that will have hit Russia, people will
0:16:25 > 0:16:29say, why did we have so many spies here in the first place. Why weren't
0:16:29 > 0:16:40they kicked out earlier?The answer is we don't let people we know to be
0:16:40 > 0:16:44spies in, but patterns of behaviour emerge that lead us to conclude
0:16:44 > 0:16:49they're spies. If you kick them out, they will then kick one of our
0:16:49 > 0:16:55people out. Their kicking out innocent diplomats from Moscow. So
0:16:55 > 0:17:01in a sense you're stuck with them. Are you surprised there hasn't been
0:17:01 > 0:17:04a public retaliation, apart from the scorn from Moscow and from Vladimir
0:17:04 > 0:17:09Putin. They say there will be retaliation. Should we be expecting
0:17:09 > 0:17:19it iminnocently? Sni -- Imminently. They'll retaliate a roughly similar
0:17:19 > 0:17:26number of diplomats. I'm sure they're working on the list. The
0:17:26 > 0:17:31worrying thought is they're so angry with the UK that they will go beyond
0:17:31 > 0:17:39the steps that we have taken and we are then in an escalating cycle of
0:17:39 > 0:17:46mutual reprisals. I hope that is not the situation. But that is what we
0:17:46 > 0:17:52will have to watch.I can't agree Russia is angry with the UK, Russia
0:17:52 > 0:17:58got what she wanted. There will be no attendance at the World
0:17:58 > 0:18:01Championship, but the UK didn't impose any sanctions that would be
0:18:01 > 0:18:06harmful.Like seizing property here or saying to the elite close to
0:18:06 > 0:18:10Vladimir Putin you can't come here, would that hurt?That would hurt.
0:18:10 > 0:18:16The only thing that Vladimir Putin cares about is his close cronies who
0:18:16 > 0:18:22live here. For me it is like easy to say that, they're all people with
0:18:22 > 0:18:27illegal assets here and who just take money from Russia and park them
0:18:27 > 0:18:32here and buy properties here and I know generally the British public is
0:18:32 > 0:18:36not happy with that. When you say Russia is angry with the British
0:18:36 > 0:18:44reaction, it is not true. When you're watching this on state TV and
0:18:44 > 0:18:50they're produced for domestic use. When you see somebody is insulting,
0:18:50 > 0:18:54it shows how strong he is towards his domestic audience. When I see
0:18:54 > 0:19:01British... Politicians talking the same way, I'm surprised, because I
0:19:01 > 0:19:06don't want Russia to teach the world how diplomacy should be like this.
0:19:06 > 0:19:12Well in the United States in the midsts of the reactions, we heard
0:19:12 > 0:19:17the US Secretary of State, Rex Tillerson had been dismissed. What
0:19:17 > 0:19:22impact will that have on a different bit of foreign policy, the Iran
0:19:22 > 0:19:27deal?It could have a serious impact. President Trump mentioned
0:19:27 > 0:19:34Iran as one of the points of disagreement between him and Rex
0:19:34 > 0:19:39Tillerson. I don't know Mr Pompeo, but I have spoke to people who know
0:19:39 > 0:19:44him and they say this is a man who is very bright and interested in
0:19:44 > 0:19:50foreign policy and he is open to arguments. The problem about the
0:19:50 > 0:19:54Iran deal is it... He claims President Trump is a good deal for
0:19:54 > 0:19:58Iran. It is. But a lot of benefits have not been delivered by the west.
0:19:58 > 0:20:04It is a very good deal for the west, because it is a non-proliferation,
0:20:04 > 0:20:09an arms control.But Trump doesn't like it.We think he doesn't like it
0:20:09 > 0:20:16for the reason that Obama agreed it and not for any other reason. I hope
0:20:16 > 0:20:19and pray that the rationale argument that it is in America's interest
0:20:19 > 0:20:23will work and that Russia, China, France, Germany and the United
0:20:23 > 0:20:29Kingdom are all very clear that the deal has to stay. The United States
0:20:29 > 0:20:31has got to take account of that.We are going to leave it there. Thank
0:20:31 > 0:20:36you very much.
0:20:36 > 0:20:38Has Jeremy Corbyn misjudged his response
0:20:38 > 0:20:39to the Salisbury attack?
0:20:39 > 0:20:41The Labour leader received fierce criticism from Conservatives
0:20:41 > 0:20:44and some of his own MPs after he failed to back
0:20:44 > 0:20:50Theresa May's decision to directly blame the Russian state.
0:20:51 > 0:20:57Our response as a country must be guided by the rule of law, support
0:20:57 > 0:21:01for international agreements and respect for human rights. So when it
0:21:01 > 0:21:07comes to the use of chemical weapons on British soil, it is essential
0:21:07 > 0:21:13that the Government works with the UN to strengthen its monitoring
0:21:13 > 0:21:17system and involves the office of the prohibition of chemical weapons.
0:21:17 > 0:21:21The Prime Minister said on Monday, either was a direct act by the
0:21:21 > 0:21:27Russian state or the Russian Government lost control of their
0:21:27 > 0:21:30potentially catastrophically damaging nerve agent and allowed it
0:21:30 > 0:21:36to get into the hands of others. Our response must be decisive and
0:21:36 > 0:21:40proportionate and based on clear evidence.
0:21:40 > 0:21:42Yvette Cooper, who chairs the Home Affairs Select Committee,
0:21:42 > 0:21:46was among those who spoke to condemn Russia's actions.
0:21:46 > 0:21:52Can I welcome the Prime Minister's statement, her conclusion
0:21:52 > 0:21:55about the culpability of the Russian state is an immensely serious one?
0:21:55 > 0:21:57And that, in addition to their breaches of international
0:21:57 > 0:22:00law, of the use of chemical weapons, but also their continued
0:22:00 > 0:22:03disregard for the rule of law and for human rights must be met
0:22:03 > 0:22:08with unequivocal condemnation.
0:22:08 > 0:22:11A group of backbench MPs have put down a Commons motion supporting
0:22:11 > 0:22:14the Prime Minister's position, praising her actions rather
0:22:14 > 0:22:14than those of their party leader.
0:22:14 > 0:22:22We're joined now by Labour MP John Woodcock.
0:22:24 > 0:22:31And a journalist.Let's talk about why were you so unhappy with what
0:22:31 > 0:22:35Jeremy Corbyn said?Well I think what you saw yesterday was not a
0:22:35 > 0:22:41group of MPs who were standing up and criticising our leader, but we
0:22:41 > 0:22:49thought it was important to put what we thought was the right position to
0:22:49 > 0:22:53be unequivocal in our support with the Government against this threat
0:22:53 > 0:22:57and accept the culpability of the Russian state. What you had in the
0:22:57 > 0:23:02statement and then after it in briefing that was given by Jeremy
0:23:02 > 0:23:06Corbyn's spokesman was a different picture and so given what was said
0:23:06 > 0:23:12after the statement, we thought it was... It is important to be, for us
0:23:12 > 0:23:18all to be clear at a time when the UK has been attacked using chemical
0:23:18 > 0:23:24weapons by a foreign state that there should be no doubt what the
0:23:24 > 0:23:29vast majority of Labour MPs think. Did you want to hear Jeremy Corbyn
0:23:29 > 0:23:32say and condemn the Russian state for the Salisbury attack?Of course.
0:23:32 > 0:23:38I want to see every single member of Parliament doing that, because I
0:23:38 > 0:23:42think it is our responsibility in this circumstances to take that
0:23:42 > 0:23:55action. I was heartened yesterday that nearly every MP, including
0:23:55 > 0:24:01every party leader, including Caroline Lucas of Greens accepted
0:24:01 > 0:24:06Russian culpability. So we have had our shadow Defence Secretary being
0:24:06 > 0:24:15clear on this today as well. Which is also helpful.
0:24:15 > 0:24:19is also helpful.They seem to need to clarify the position of Jeremy
0:24:19 > 0:24:24Corbyn, because there was criticism of Jeremy Corbyn's spokesman who
0:24:24 > 0:24:28referred to the problematic history of the use of UK intelligence. Why
0:24:28 > 0:24:32do they want to focus on that, rather than Russia.I don't think
0:24:32 > 0:24:38they did. Jeremy Corbyn repeated what Theresa May said before. He has
0:24:38 > 0:24:42been unequivocal in ensuring etch knows as long as the evidence backs
0:24:42 > 0:24:47this up, they will take action. What is more interesting is there is a
0:24:47 > 0:24:54clear outcome we need to see, not just the expulsion of diplomats or
0:24:54 > 0:24:59sanctions, but looking at the way Russia will be hit, which is in the
0:24:59 > 0:25:05City and money laundering. And that is what we should be talking about.
0:25:05 > 0:25:08Instead we are talking about the exact wording of statements made in
0:25:08 > 0:25:17Parliament.Hang on, you can't avoid the fact that Jeremy Corbyn's view
0:25:17 > 0:25:20was equivocal and he was saying we need the evidence. I don't know
0:25:20 > 0:25:27whether you saw this. We have had a Russian journalist plugged into
0:25:27 > 0:25:33Moscow who completely accepted that this was the responsibility of the
0:25:33 > 0:25:37main Russian intelligence agency, the GRU. There was no equivocation
0:25:37 > 0:25:43from here and she said it worked in the interests of Russia. I think
0:25:43 > 0:25:47Jeremy Corbyn actually made an error in suggesting we needed more
0:25:47 > 0:25:51evidence. Listen, I have got the scars about the intelligence failure
0:25:51 > 0:25:56over Iraq. But that was... A very different. Because there we knew
0:25:56 > 0:26:00that Saddam had had the stuff and the question was did he still have
0:26:00 > 0:26:06it. Here is there no doubt this nerve agent was yuzed and this this
0:26:06 > 0:26:11nerve agent came from a Russian laboratory. So Russia was given then
0:26:11 > 0:26:16a period to say, well, did you use it or has it come out of your
0:26:16 > 0:26:21control? They failed to answer that. I think Theresa May was right to
0:26:21 > 0:26:26come to the conclusion that she did. I think it was a generous to a fault
0:26:26 > 0:26:32for the Prime Minister to leave open the option that this was in some way
0:26:32 > 0:26:38Russia losing track of its agents. We have seen over the last ten years
0:26:38 > 0:26:41an absolutely clear pattern and we will, this is not the time to dwell
0:26:41 > 0:26:47too much on this, but actually there will be a time to look at the UK
0:26:47 > 0:26:51Government's action in the last ten years which has been really at times
0:26:51 > 0:26:56to turn a blind eye to similar incidents.But the question here was
0:26:56 > 0:27:01whether you could make a definitive judgment on who was to blame, Jeremy
0:27:01 > 0:27:07Corbyn seemed to leave the door open in the way zwrabg straw said and --
0:27:07 > 0:27:10Jack Straw said and said we should be cautious about making that
0:27:10 > 0:27:16judgment. What other plausible explanation could there be. What do
0:27:16 > 0:27:20you think? There is in their minds a possibility that it could have been
0:27:20 > 0:27:26someone other than the Russian state. What is that plausible
0:27:26 > 0:27:30explanation?Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour and colleagues have said as
0:27:30 > 0:27:37long adds we as we have the evidence we will take action. Jeremy Corbyn
0:27:37 > 0:27:42said the same yesterday. But we have international obligations to the
0:27:42 > 0:27:48international community and Europe and abroad to make sure we follow
0:27:48 > 0:27:51certain procedures, not jumping to conclusions.So you don't want to
0:27:51 > 0:27:56jump to the conclusion it was the Russian state.I think it was.Do
0:27:56 > 0:28:00you think Jeremy Corbyn believes that?I'm not the next Prime
0:28:00 > 0:28:05Minister of this country and don't have obligationses to follow
0:28:05 > 0:28:12protocol. I feel uncomfortable being lectured. Jack if you see the
0:28:12 > 0:28:17Chilcot report was told he was hiding certain documents.Hang on a
0:28:17 > 0:28:21second, I was responsible for one of people responsible for the decision
0:28:21 > 0:28:30to go to war in Iraq 15 years ago. Chilcot said nothing that I hidden
0:28:30 > 0:28:35documents. They disagreed with the process we used, there was no
0:28:35 > 0:28:39suggestion about my bad faith. Let make that clear.Do you think there
0:28:39 > 0:28:43is a reason to be cautious until we know and until we have the evidence,
0:28:43 > 0:28:51if we could ever get that evidence? There was a reason to be cautious,
0:28:51 > 0:28:55is why Theresa May took her time. On Sunday I was on the BBC and I said
0:28:55 > 0:28:58the Government needs to be cautious about this, not least because of
0:28:58 > 0:29:05experience over Iraq. But the result of that caution is there is now
0:29:05 > 0:29:09evidence about the origin of this nerve agent. At the time, the
0:29:09 > 0:29:14evidence is there, it is good enough for a Russian journalist as well as
0:29:14 > 0:29:19politicians. Why not for the leader of opposition.The outcome will be
0:29:19 > 0:29:25Russia will be held responsible.We are talking about the Labour
0:29:25 > 0:29:30leader's reaction, do you think he was explicit enough?In my opinion,
0:29:30 > 0:29:36we have people who have been proved wrong on policy and Jeremy Corbyn
0:29:36 > 0:29:45has been found right on Iraq and Turkey.Is the answer is yes you did
0:29:45 > 0:29:52support his response?Sure.What do you say?I think reasons to be
0:29:52 > 0:29:57confident is that the overwhelming majority of MPs in this country are
0:29:57 > 0:30:01behind the Government's stance. The majority of countries beyond that.
0:30:01 > 0:30:07I'm asking about Jeremy Corbyn.I know. I think it is important to set
0:30:07 > 0:30:12it in context. I do, Jeremy Corbyn is very influential and what he has
0:30:12 > 0:30:16been able to do in gathering hundreds of thousands of supporters,
0:30:16 > 0:30:20they do listen to him and I think that it was unfortunate that for
0:30:20 > 0:30:27the, some of the last 24 hours there seemed to be an alignment between
0:30:27 > 0:30:33his spokesman and the disinformation coming from the Kremlin. There is an
0:30:33 > 0:30:37opportunity for him to follow the lead of our shadow Defence Secretary
0:30:37 > 0:30:45and make clear that we see Russia to be unequivocally responsible for
0:30:45 > 0:30:50this chemical weapons attack.
0:30:50 > 0:30:54Isn't that where the focus should be? We will look at pictures of
0:30:54 > 0:30:58Theresa May in Salisbury at the moment.It is such a shame and
0:30:58 > 0:31:01unforgivable that at a time where we are at a crisis of international
0:31:01 > 0:31:04diplomacy. Rather than trying to hold the government accountable to
0:31:04 > 0:31:08make sure they take affirmative and quick action, John Isner Miliband
0:31:08 > 0:31:13Jeremy Corbyn who has time and time again been proven right. This
0:31:13 > 0:31:16government is a shambles. Boris Johnson is not taken seriously by
0:31:16 > 0:31:25anyone around the world.We will have a look at these pictures. The
0:31:25 > 0:31:27Prime Minister Theresa May is in Salisbury where the attack happened
0:31:27 > 0:31:29against Sergei Skripal and his daughter Julia who were found
0:31:29 > 0:31:34slumped on a bench. She's meeting local businesses and representatives
0:31:34 > 0:31:36from Public Health England. The advice came out to people who were
0:31:36 > 0:31:42in the vicinity of where Sergei Skripal and his daughter was found
0:31:42 > 0:31:47slumped, wash their clothes and take precautions although the risk was
0:31:47 > 0:31:51very low. Answer Michael's comments.
0:31:53 > 0:31:57At the privilege of being elected to Parliament, as I don't know whether
0:31:57 > 0:32:01one day you might wish to do, you have to take a judgment on
0:32:01 > 0:32:05everything. But most importantly on matters of national security, what
0:32:05 > 0:32:10do you think is the right thing to protect your citizens? What is the
0:32:10 > 0:32:15right thing to uphold international law? All of us have not come in this
0:32:15 > 0:32:20with, how does it fit into the internal prism of a Labour dynamic.
0:32:20 > 0:32:25We have thought that the Russian state has, for many years, has been
0:32:25 > 0:32:30culpable of attacks on our soil, of flagrant violations. Therefore it is
0:32:30 > 0:32:34the right thing to back the Prime Minister. I want everybody else to
0:32:34 > 0:32:40do that and I want Jeremy to do that. That is our focus, doing what
0:32:40 > 0:32:45we think is right.If Jeremy Corbyn were to become Prime Minister, do
0:32:45 > 0:32:50you have confidence in his security? It is valid but not one I will get
0:32:50 > 0:32:54into at the moment. Rightly, the focus is on the package of measures
0:32:54 > 0:32:59that the UK Government is setting forward and how should we respond.
0:32:59 > 0:33:03Would you have faith in him being in charge of national security?It
0:33:03 > 0:33:08needs to do some thinking before I have that faith. That's the problem
0:33:08 > 0:33:12is the Jeremy has sometimes been right about his position on
0:33:12 > 0:33:16international issues of conflict. But sometimes, overwhelmingly wrong
0:33:16 > 0:33:21because my recollection is, I could be incorrect about this, he was
0:33:21 > 0:33:26opposed to the invasion of Afghanistan in the light of 9/11 and
0:33:26 > 0:33:29he was wrong about that. He was opposed to the first Gulf War and he
0:33:29 > 0:33:35was wrong about that. He was opposed to action in Kosovo and he was wrong
0:33:35 > 0:33:38about that. You need to make judgments rather than every case
0:33:38 > 0:33:42where you are faced with a really difficult decision and ask for more
0:33:42 > 0:33:46information and more evidence. Sometimes you have to make these
0:33:46 > 0:33:49decisions on the basis of inadequate evidence. But we are blessed by the
0:33:49 > 0:33:54fact that the evidence is forensic and very clear.Thank you.
0:33:54 > 0:33:56One of the ways Russia could make life
0:33:56 > 0:33:59difficult is supplying gas.
0:33:59 > 0:34:01Or stopping the supply of gas.
0:34:01 > 0:34:05So just how reliant is the UK - and Europe - on Russian gas?
0:34:05 > 0:34:07To discuss this, I'm joined by energy expert,
0:34:07 > 0:34:08Professor Jim Watson.
0:34:08 > 0:34:10He's the Director of the UK Energy Research Centre
0:34:10 > 0:34:13and a Professor of Energy Policy at the University of Sussex.
0:34:13 > 0:34:20Welcome. How reliant are we on Russian gas?Not very reliant at all
0:34:20 > 0:34:26in the case of the UK. Roughly less than 5% on average in a year of our
0:34:26 > 0:34:30gas comes from Russia is mainly via pipelines that connect the UK to
0:34:30 > 0:34:35Belgium and the Netherlands.What about Europe?In general it is much
0:34:35 > 0:34:38higher and as you go closer to the Russian border, from west to east,
0:34:38 > 0:34:43countries like Germany and Poland and other countries that use gas
0:34:43 > 0:34:46will use more Russian gas and that will tend to come via pipeline
0:34:46 > 0:34:51systems. Some countries are almost wholly dependent on Russian gas via
0:34:51 > 0:34:56a single pipeline. The vulnerability changes from west to east.As a
0:34:56 > 0:35:00result of that, Germany approved a multi-billion dollar gas pipeline to
0:35:00 > 0:35:05Europe. When it comes to asking for support from our allies, will they
0:35:05 > 0:35:10have to think carefully before they do anything that is too explicit in
0:35:10 > 0:35:14terms of condemning Russia because then they suffered themselves?I
0:35:14 > 0:35:18think that is right.-- they may suffer.It has been hard for the EU
0:35:18 > 0:35:22to have a concerted and coordinate response on energy and security
0:35:22 > 0:35:25questions with respect to gas in Russia because the member states
0:35:25 > 0:35:30have different interests. The UK, we have lots of other sources of gas
0:35:30 > 0:35:33and flexibility compared to the interests of Germany or some of the
0:35:33 > 0:35:38new Eastern European states are very different. Having that combined
0:35:38 > 0:35:42agreement for strong action will be tough.The flip side, if we're not
0:35:42 > 0:35:47that reliant on Russian gas, Theresa May says will look to other
0:35:47 > 0:35:50countries to provide gas will not hurt Russia.No, we already look to
0:35:50 > 0:35:55other countries. About half of the gas we get, perhaps a bit more, is
0:35:55 > 0:35:58now imported. Our biggest source of imports is Norway, which has been a
0:35:58 > 0:36:03very reliable source of imports, with some problems of undersea
0:36:03 > 0:36:07pipelines occasionally and liquid gas which mainly comes from Qatar.
0:36:07 > 0:36:11The Russian gas element is quite small. We have that diversification
0:36:11 > 0:36:14already. We need to think about, particularly in response to the cold
0:36:14 > 0:36:20weather we have had recently, have we got enough flexibility in our gas
0:36:20 > 0:36:24system and gas storage? I would look to that if we want to strengthen the
0:36:24 > 0:36:28resilience of our gas system and protect us from future shocks.
0:36:28 > 0:36:32Strengthening our resources. What about more broadly, energy security
0:36:32 > 0:36:37in the future, is that a big threat to us?Gas is one of the areas where
0:36:37 > 0:36:40people have traditionally worried. There are things we can do about it
0:36:40 > 0:36:45but oil or electricity, you have very different discussions.
0:36:45 > 0:36:50Electricity, the big issue is that we have a much changing electricity
0:36:50 > 0:36:55system. Renewable energy coming onto the system and the need to run that
0:36:55 > 0:37:02flexibility, more flexibly. Power stations play a role. A different
0:37:02 > 0:37:07conversation in respect of oil, we have different places we rely on oil
0:37:07 > 0:37:10from an international relations. I always come back to making sure we
0:37:10 > 0:37:15have flexibility and resilience arrangements, enough storage, naff
0:37:15 > 0:37:17arrangements with large industrial countries to make sure that if we
0:37:17 > 0:37:21have a really tight spot like we did in the recent cold weather, they can
0:37:21 > 0:37:27turn down demand in response to things that we have.Thank you.
0:37:27 > 0:37:31Police in the Shropshire town of Telford are working with several
0:37:31 > 0:37:33dozen girls who are either victims of child sexual exploitation, or
0:37:33 > 0:37:36thought to be at risk of grooming.
0:37:36 > 0:37:39The Sunday Mirror said it uncovered Britain's "worst ever" child
0:37:39 > 0:37:42grooming scandal at the weekend, with up to 1,000 girls abused
0:37:42 > 0:37:46by grooming gangs since the 1980s.
0:37:46 > 0:37:48The town's MP Lucy Allan said girls were being traded
0:37:48 > 0:37:50for sex in a "routine way".
0:37:50 > 0:37:52One victim, "Holly", spoke anonymously to Victoria Derbyshire
0:37:52 > 0:37:56about her abuse at the hand of gangs in the town.
0:37:56 > 0:38:00He started violently raping me.
0:38:00 > 0:38:05He'd beat me with his belt, and things,
0:38:05 > 0:38:10if I didn't agree to let him rape me.
0:38:10 > 0:38:14And then he would try to make me feel better, or make himself feel
0:38:14 > 0:38:17better, I guess, by trying to give me money or, yeah, top up my
0:38:17 > 0:38:20phone, and things, again.
0:38:20 > 0:38:23From that man, it moved on to many men.
0:38:23 > 0:38:31Like, it was about seven abusers, in the end.
0:38:32 > 0:38:38So you were passed around or they would all turn up en masse?They
0:38:38 > 0:38:43would be whoever caught me first, whoever saw me walking home from
0:38:43 > 0:38:46school first or walking to my friends' house.Distressing
0:38:46 > 0:38:47testimony.
0:38:47 > 0:38:49Joining us now is the Conservative MP for Telford,
0:38:49 > 0:38:51Lucy Allan and from Cardiff, the former chief prosecutor
0:38:51 > 0:38:52for North West England Nazir Afzal.
0:38:52 > 0:39:01Welcome. Lucy, the investigation by the daily Mirror reveals, as far as
0:39:01 > 0:39:05they are concerned, allegations on a massive scale. The police are
0:39:05 > 0:39:08disputing the scale, the numbers involved, saying they are working
0:39:08 > 0:39:12with several dozen girls and officers, what is your belief?We
0:39:12 > 0:39:16know that many victims do not come forward. Sometimes they feel it is
0:39:16 > 0:39:19their fault, that they were somehow to blame. They are afraid of
0:39:19 > 0:39:25retaliation. The police numbers will never reflect the full-scale of the
0:39:25 > 0:39:30incidence of this crime.
0:39:30 > 0:39:34This is a pattern that, unfortunately and tragically, seems
0:39:34 > 0:39:37to be repeating itself. Do you recognise the pattern that has gone
0:39:37 > 0:39:43on here in terms of the abuse and abused children not being believed?
0:39:43 > 0:39:47Good afternoon. Absolutely. I have been talking about this for almost a
0:39:47 > 0:39:52decade after Rochdale and leading nationally for four or five years on
0:39:52 > 0:39:56this issue. There is nowhere in this country where this abuse isn't
0:39:56 > 0:40:02taking place. Men are being predators and picking on very abused
0:40:02 > 0:40:05girls, chaotic and troubled in their backgrounds who are somehow left
0:40:05 > 0:40:10behind. Who are just not listened to. They have a voice but not
0:40:10 > 0:40:14listened to by authorities. In terms of numbers, following on from what
0:40:14 > 0:40:20Lucy said a moment ago, absolutely right. They will rarely report, they
0:40:20 > 0:40:24are difficult cases to prosecute because very often Stockholm
0:40:24 > 0:40:27syndrome sets in, they feel to protect themselves they should not
0:40:27 > 0:40:31talk to anybody about what they have been through. We are talking about
0:40:31 > 0:40:35hundreds if not thousands across the country and pretty much in every
0:40:35 > 0:40:38town and city in the United Kingdom will have such a network.One of the
0:40:38 > 0:40:44claims in the investigation is that the council 's labelling abused
0:40:44 > 0:40:48children as prostitutes, for example, they are not believing what
0:40:48 > 0:40:53the victims, alleged victims, were saying. What has been the council's
0:40:53 > 0:41:02response Lucy?That is a historic approach, I don't think people now
0:41:02 > 0:41:04refer to victims of child sexual exploitation as prostitutes, which
0:41:04 > 0:41:08is a good step forward. But there is an element of they may have indulged
0:41:08 > 0:41:11in risky behaviour, they have made -- they may have brought it on
0:41:11 > 0:41:15themselves. A lot of the victims feel that, "It was my fault, I did
0:41:15 > 0:41:20get in a car with this man, I did send him an image of myself, and he
0:41:20 > 0:41:26has now used that to threaten me and coerce me into sex with him and his
0:41:26 > 0:41:31friends". There is an internalised sense of shame. That stops victims
0:41:31 > 0:41:35from coming forward.Jack, do you recognise, again, the pattern of
0:41:35 > 0:41:40what has happened because of your own experiences?Is of course I
0:41:40 > 0:41:49recognise it. Although no one has mentioned it this morning, abuse of
0:41:49 > 0:41:53young girls, typically, bind men has no ethnic boundaries, but this
0:41:53 > 0:41:58particular kind of gang abuse is particular, I'm sorry to say but it
0:41:58 > 0:42:03is just true, is particularly prevalent amongst the Pakistani
0:42:03 > 0:42:06heritage community. Not the Indian heritage community, is or
0:42:06 > 0:42:10Bangladeshi, there is a bit of that. Something wrong inside the culture
0:42:10 > 0:42:17of some Pakistanis and their groups. We have had examples of this in my
0:42:17 > 0:42:24former constituency where I am still heavily involved in local matters.
0:42:24 > 0:42:27Happily, in Blackburn, because there have been very good coordination
0:42:27 > 0:42:31between the police and social services, we didn't have any
0:42:31 > 0:42:36cover-ups of what was going on. We were able to nip it in the bud but
0:42:36 > 0:42:40in an adjacent town, including Rochdale, and across the Pennines in
0:42:40 > 0:42:44Rotherham, you have had these terrible examples. Where the social
0:42:44 > 0:42:50services and the police really covered their eyes at what was going
0:42:50 > 0:42:53on with disastrous consequences.Do you see that happening here in
0:42:53 > 0:42:59Telford? This racial element that, again, mainly involving Asian men or
0:42:59 > 0:43:07Pakistani heritage. Do you recognise that?We grooming gangs are, without
0:43:07 > 0:43:10doubt, of Pakistani heritage in Telford. There have been two cases
0:43:10 > 0:43:16that were prosecuted where gangs of Pakistani men were sentenced for
0:43:16 > 0:43:21long periods of time for abuse of white, working-class girls, who came
0:43:21 > 0:43:25from difficult backgrounds, who were not sympathetic victims in many
0:43:25 > 0:43:31respects. And very difficult, as your guest said, to prosecute.
0:43:31 > 0:43:34Nazir, how do we have an honest conversation about this, if this is
0:43:34 > 0:43:40the pattern that has repeated itself in terms of grooming gangs? Whether
0:43:40 > 0:43:45it is Rochdale, Rotherham, Newcastle and in Telford. How do you deal with
0:43:45 > 0:43:50it?We contextualise it. 80% of sex offenders are British, white men.
0:43:50 > 0:43:54But this type of abuse it is disproportionately British Pakistani
0:43:54 > 0:43:58men, you can't be shy about saying these things. Ten years ago Jack
0:43:58 > 0:44:06mentioned it and he got a tremendous amount of abuse for saying so.
0:44:06 > 0:44:08amount of abuse for saying so. The reality is, this is the problem we
0:44:08 > 0:44:10have to deal with and the communities themselves recognise it.
0:44:10 > 0:44:12There is some phenomenal vocal work going on to try to identify
0:44:12 > 0:44:17perpetrators and those who are being abused. We also have to recognise
0:44:17 > 0:44:22that there are Asian victims who are really reluctant to come forward.
0:44:22 > 0:44:27The answer is education, calling out where you see it. Putting money into
0:44:27 > 0:44:32all the good work happening at NGO level. Ultimately, it is providing
0:44:32 > 0:44:35support to victims to come forward to ensure that the perpetrators are
0:44:35 > 0:44:40brought to justice. Those who are tasked with doing this, police and
0:44:40 > 0:44:44prosecutors, should not be shy about taking this forward.What are the
0:44:44 > 0:44:51causes? Nazir, you answer and then will I -- I will ask Jack.
0:44:51 > 0:44:55Criminality. When I prosecuted one gang in the north of England, not in
0:44:55 > 0:44:59Rochdale, the drug trade went down by 50% whilst they were in custody.
0:44:59 > 0:45:02It is tackling other areas of criminality that these men are
0:45:02 > 0:45:05involved in.
0:45:05 > 0:45:11JackPakistani men are involved in the night-time economy, at an
0:45:11 > 0:45:16astonishing rate. They're involved in selling in takeaways or in the
0:45:16 > 0:45:23taxi trade. That is part of the night-time economy. But there is a
0:45:23 > 0:45:28bigger issue about the culture of Pakistani men and Nazir is right to
0:45:28 > 0:45:38say when I mentioned this in 2011, said it was a Pakistani problem, the
0:45:38 > 0:45:43balloon went up. But then it deflated. Some said, didn't you say
0:45:43 > 0:45:51Asian. I said listen, pal, the reason is I'm not talking about
0:45:51 > 0:45:55Asians, I'm talking about Pakistani. You have been knowing what has going
0:45:55 > 0:46:00on and you have got to confront it. It goes back to some of the nature
0:46:00 > 0:46:04of Pakistani society in the villages from which these people come. It is
0:46:04 > 0:46:09complicated. Some people attribute it to Islam. That is not the case.
0:46:09 > 0:46:16It is a cultural problem. About the way in which this particular segment
0:46:16 > 0:46:23of Pakistani men happen to regard white girls. They see them as easy
0:46:23 > 0:46:29meat. And they come from difficult backgrounds, where they're unlikely
0:46:29 > 0:46:37to report accept after a lot of encouragement.Were you dismayed
0:46:37 > 0:46:41when the Labour Rotherham MP was criticised for saying that by the
0:46:41 > 0:46:47Labour Party.I gave every support to Sara.She said British Pakistani
0:46:47 > 0:46:52men are raping and exploiting white girls.She was right.Are
0:46:52 > 0:46:55politicians not facing up to it, it is too difficult to have the
0:46:55 > 0:47:01conversation?It is about social and cultural attitudes towards white
0:47:01 > 0:47:05working class girls. There is no doubt about that and we cannot bury
0:47:05 > 0:47:10our heads in the sand. We have to accept that. If the local police
0:47:10 > 0:47:16chief says, yes, child abuse happens with white males, of course it does.
0:47:16 > 0:47:23Let's not conflate it with grooming, gang-type behaviour. That is
0:47:23 > 0:47:31different.Finally, how do we break the pattern?We bring offenders to
0:47:31 > 0:47:38justice, provide support to victims, we may to NGOs who are doing work in
0:47:38 > 0:47:41identifying victim and perpetrators and community intelligence needs to
0:47:41 > 0:47:48improve. When I first talked about it, we said do we want a nation of
0:47:48 > 0:47:53grasses, no, we want a nation of good neighbours. We need to listen
0:47:53 > 0:47:56to people and use the information and bring these people to justice.
0:47:56 > 0:48:01Thank you.
0:48:03 > 0:48:10Thank you. The pm Prime Minister is visiting Salisbury. She will receive
0:48:10 > 0:48:20a briefing from public health England. She said this recently.I'm
0:48:20 > 0:48:23pleased come to Salisbury to speak to people and announced yesterday
0:48:23 > 0:48:31the action that we are taking, we do hold Russia cup pabl for this brazen
0:48:31 > 0:48:35act that has taken place on the streets of what is such a remarkable
0:48:35 > 0:48:42city, where people come and visit and enjoy and I've come here also to
0:48:42 > 0:48:48say thank you to our emergency services, to our police, our health
0:48:48 > 0:48:55services, to everybody at Porton Down and elsewhere where who have
0:48:55 > 0:48:59been working to investigating to get to the bottom of those responsible
0:48:59 > 0:49:04and also to ensure that the public are reassured and it has been great
0:49:04 > 0:49:08to meet some tourists here, people coming to Salisbury, still enjoying
0:49:08 > 0:49:16this city.Theresa May there in Salisbury giving an interview.
0:49:16 > 0:49:19So could we be looking at a return to a Cold War with Russia?
0:49:19 > 0:49:22Over recent years, relations between "us" and "them" have been
0:49:22 > 0:49:24going from bad to worse, as our reporter Greg Dawson
0:49:24 > 0:49:27has been finding out.
0:49:30 > 0:49:40In the late nineties post-Soviet Russia was in turmoil. President's
0:49:40 > 0:49:47Yeltsin's health was deteriorating. But in 1999 Yeltsin named Vladimir
0:49:47 > 0:49:51Putin as Prime Minister and soon he was acting President and in 2000 he
0:49:51 > 0:50:00was elected President of Russia. Anglo Russians relations grew tense
0:50:00 > 0:50:06with the Kremlin pursuing a more assertive policy.Alexander
0:50:06 > 0:50:09Litvinenko who, died last night has accused the Kremlin of murdering
0:50:09 > 0:50:23him.In 2006, former Russian agent, Alexander Litvinenko, acritic of the
0:50:23 > 0:50:31Kremlin died of polonium poisoning. The British asked the extradition of
0:50:31 > 0:50:40a Russian agent and Russia refused. Amid rumours the murder was ordered
0:50:40 > 0:50:46by Vladimir Putin.TRANSLATION: Britain should understand its action
0:50:46 > 0:50:53will not remain without an answer and will have severe consequences.
0:50:53 > 0:50:58In 2014 relations soured following Russia's intervention in Ukraine and
0:50:58 > 0:51:04the downing of a Malaysian plane in a suspected missile strike by rebels
0:51:04 > 0:51:10using Russian weapons. The British Government and the US and the EU
0:51:10 > 0:51:14imposed sanctions on Russia and suspended military co-operation.
0:51:14 > 0:51:18Russia responded by cutting off food imports from the UK. Last year,
0:51:18 > 0:51:23Boris Johnson became the first UK Foreign Secretary to visit Russia in
0:51:23 > 0:51:29five years, but faced a chilly reception after suggesting Russian
0:51:29 > 0:51:34involvement in Syria may amount to war crimes. Theresa May accused
0:51:34 > 0:51:43Russia of meddling in elections and planting fake news. IchlgtsI have a
0:51:43 > 0:51:49simple message we know what you're doing and you will not succeed.The
0:51:49 > 0:51:55poisoning came when Moscow described Anglo Russian relations at an
0:51:55 > 0:52:07all-time low. The expulsion of diplomats the latest stage.
0:52:07 > 0:52:09Vladimir Putin faces almost certain re-election as president
0:52:09 > 0:52:10of Russia at the weekend.
0:52:10 > 0:52:14But how difficult is it to live and work in Russia if you're
0:52:14 > 0:52:15a critic of Mr Putin?
0:52:15 > 0:52:16Opposition activists have long accused the Kremlin
0:52:16 > 0:52:18of using the security services and state-controlled
0:52:18 > 0:52:20TV to attack them.
0:52:20 > 0:52:22And when Panorama went to investigate, they found
0:52:22 > 0:52:26the same tactics were used against their reporter John Sweeney.
0:52:26 > 0:52:29SPEAKS RUSSIAN.
0:52:32 > 0:52:35It soon becomes clear why we've been followed and filmed.
0:52:41 > 0:52:44One of the main TV channels in Russia runs
0:52:44 > 0:52:47a special report about me.
0:52:55 > 0:52:58As well as repeating the vandalism claim,
0:52:58 > 0:53:00it accuses me of making up stories about students and soldiers
0:53:00 > 0:53:03I haven't even met.
0:53:06 > 0:53:10My police statement and passport also leaked the media.
0:53:10 > 0:53:17This is how things work in Putin's Russia.
0:53:17 > 0:53:20And Panorama reporter John Sweeney joins us
0:53:20 > 0:53:22in the studio and from Dublin, Professor Ian Robertson,
0:53:22 > 0:53:24one of the world's leading experts on neuropsychology
0:53:24 > 0:53:29and an authority on power.
0:53:29 > 0:53:36Was Vladimir Putin always as dangerous as he is now?No, leaders
0:53:36 > 0:53:41like this are made largely, albeit there is a certain personality there
0:53:41 > 0:53:49and he was a man who grew up in tough times in St Petersburg. He was
0:53:49 > 0:53:54a fight, a physically courageous man, but an aggressive man and
0:53:54 > 0:54:02nationalistic. He held off the crowds this Dresden when they were
0:54:02 > 0:54:09besieging the KGB post he was n't always like this. Power is a change
0:54:09 > 0:54:14agent and if you have unfetterred power it causes a remarkably
0:54:14 > 0:54:18consistent set of behaviours and changes which Vladimir Putin shows.
0:54:18 > 0:54:23Of course it looks as if he is going to win again. So he will become more
0:54:23 > 0:54:29dangerous?I'm afraid so. Because what happens when you have
0:54:29 > 0:54:37unfetterred power for so long, you develop a grand yosty and a feeling
0:54:37 > 0:54:43of identification of your own interests and those of the state and
0:54:43 > 0:54:50so you... Your risk perception is dulled and your self-awareness is
0:54:50 > 0:54:54dulled.John Sweeney you have operated there, I saw the film last
0:54:54 > 0:54:59night, do you feel the effects of that in terms of the control by the
0:54:59 > 0:55:03police, by the Security Services in a sense that you can't fully operate
0:55:03 > 0:55:11in Russia the way you would like to? Absolutely. We were tailed the whole
0:55:11 > 0:55:18time, 24/7. It was so cold it was easy, you would wake up and before
0:55:18 > 0:55:21breakfast you would check out the cars, two men sitting with the
0:55:21 > 0:55:27engines running. But it was in your face. And the harassment, the two
0:55:27 > 0:55:33doorsteps, how did they know where I was, being followed all the time,
0:55:33 > 0:55:36being lied about. There was a moment when you get all of this together
0:55:36 > 0:55:40and you think this is like the mafia, the horse's head in the bed
0:55:40 > 0:55:46stuff.Is it worse?I have been to Russia since the nineties when
0:55:46 > 0:55:51people were being killed big time. This is the worst trip I have had,
0:55:51 > 0:56:00the surveillance in the face, the two or three items on pro-Kremlin TV
0:56:00 > 0:56:05and the feeling that... Vladimir Putin's risk analysis has been
0:56:05 > 0:56:11dulled. That is now in a position. So the opposition, two men, people
0:56:11 > 0:56:16say he was afraid of. Boris Berezovsky shot dead and another has
0:56:16 > 0:56:24been barred from standing two months in prison or police cells.The
0:56:24 > 0:56:30critic you filmed being strong armed. They're not hiding this. Have
0:56:30 > 0:56:37you met Vladimir Putin?Of course he came in 2003 and I met him on other
0:56:37 > 0:56:44occasions. The professor is right about him in Lord Acton's phrase,
0:56:44 > 0:56:50all power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts absolutely. I spent
0:56:50 > 0:56:5713 years in government...Did it corrupt the Labour PartyAre you a
0:56:57 > 0:57:07psycho?No.You would say that.I was going to make a serious point.
0:57:07 > 0:57:11You're accountable, more than in the Russian system. But towards the end
0:57:11 > 0:57:17of that 13 years I got used to power and to being whisked around in a
0:57:17 > 0:57:22police vehicle, trappings of power, and my kids and my wife used to sort
0:57:22 > 0:57:27of as it were stick the needle in and say hang on, because happily in
0:57:27 > 0:57:30this country, you have to lose power, it took a bit of a while to
0:57:30 > 0:57:39decompress. If you're assured of power forever, I think it is right
0:57:39 > 0:57:45you feel the changes taking place. What about that Russia and Vladimir
0:57:45 > 0:57:50Putin is acting from a position of weakness and that is what makes him
0:57:50 > 0:57:58more dangerous?I do think that is a point, with great power, you make so
0:57:58 > 0:58:02many enemies by having to exert control that you also have a lot of
0:58:02 > 0:58:07anxieties. The greatest fear that goes with the power is the fear of
0:58:07 > 0:58:12loss of control. Particularly when you have a small, an economy that is
0:58:12 > 0:58:18not thriving, the risk is that he will take... Be inclined to do
0:58:18 > 0:58:23radical things of kind he h done already.We're going to have to
0:58:23 > 0:58:29leave it there. Will you go back, John?Yes if they will let me in. My
0:58:29 > 0:58:34job is to report difficult places. I'm back in the USSR. That is what
0:58:34 > 0:58:44it feels like.Leaders of the France, Germany and the UK say the
0:58:44 > 0:58:49Russians should reveal details of novichok to the organisation for
0:58:49 > 0:58:56chemical weapons. Thank you I'm back tomorrow. Bye-bye.