0:00:37 > 0:00:40Hello. On today's show -
0:00:40 > 0:00:44Theresa May considers more sanctions against Russia.
0:00:44 > 0:00:48Fishermen aren't happy with the latest Brexit plans.
0:00:48 > 0:00:55And should new dads get more paternity leave?
0:00:58 > 0:01:01With me today Anand Menon, Professor of Foreign Affairs,
0:01:01 > 0:01:05who runs the Brexit analysis unit, the UK in a Changing Europe.
0:01:05 > 0:01:09Welcome to the programme.
0:01:09 > 0:01:13Pleasure to be here.
0:01:13 > 0:01:16First, Theresa May has been chairing a meeting of the Government's
0:01:16 > 0:01:18National Security Council this morning, discussing what further
0:01:18 > 0:01:21measures, if any, should be taken against Russia for the nerve agent
0:01:21 > 0:01:22attack on Sergei Skripal and his daughter.
0:01:22 > 0:01:27Our diplomatic editor, James Landale, joins us.
0:01:27 > 0:01:32James, tell us about some of the measures she could use?There are
0:01:32 > 0:01:37lots of tools the Prime Minister could deploy to exert the pressure
0:01:37 > 0:01:42on Moscow. See could expel more diplomats. She could be more
0:01:42 > 0:01:47explicit about the economic pressure that is going to be employed on
0:01:47 > 0:01:52wealthy Russians who have links to the Kremlin, based in the UK. There
0:01:52 > 0:01:58is a whole palette of things she could do. But the impression I get
0:01:58 > 0:02:02is that there is a live debate within government about how
0:02:02 > 0:02:06strongly, if at all, the government should respond to the latest
0:02:06 > 0:02:10retaliation. Essentially what has happened so far is there has been
0:02:10 > 0:02:14the ritual exchange of diplomats. The Russian diplomats are leaving
0:02:14 > 0:02:18today. We have seen some pictures of the coaches. There is a debate
0:02:18 > 0:02:22within government that says yes, we should continue to respond to the
0:02:22 > 0:02:29Russians and look at the next phase of this process. Others say, no, it
0:02:29 > 0:02:34is more in our strategic interest to keep this debate an international
0:02:34 > 0:02:38one. Maintain the international pressure rather than get sucked into
0:02:38 > 0:02:41a bilateral tit-for-tat row with the Russians. Interesting to see which
0:02:41 > 0:02:47way they go.It does look as if the government, particularly Boris
0:02:47 > 0:02:52Johnson, want cover from EU partners and from Nato, who have certainly
0:02:52 > 0:02:57shown solidarity, although there was some quibbling over the wording
0:02:57 > 0:03:02yesterday from the EU. Will these other organisations actually exert
0:03:02 > 0:03:07any sanctions and measures themselves against Russia?My own
0:03:07 > 0:03:12assessment is it would be very hard to get specific new unanimous EU
0:03:12 > 0:03:17support for something like EU sanctions. There is not the appetite
0:03:17 > 0:03:22for it. Even before this crisis, there was an appetite among some
0:03:22 > 0:03:27European countries, saying they want to try to weaken EU sanctions
0:03:27 > 0:03:32against Russia anyway. I don't think that is what the British are asking
0:03:32 > 0:03:37for. What they are saying is, look, this incident in Salisbury, that is
0:03:37 > 0:03:41just version of Russia's aggression affecting the United Kingdom. Look
0:03:41 > 0:03:46at this as a pattern of behaviour by Russia. Look at the threats to your
0:03:46 > 0:03:49own countries. What do you think you could do to put more pressure on
0:03:49 > 0:03:58Russia individually, unilaterally? We are not talking about agreeing to
0:03:58 > 0:04:09anything collectively, but just getting other nations, saying,
0:04:09 > 0:04:12Russia has stepped over a line and this is what we must do in terms of
0:04:12 > 0:04:19putting pressure on economically and in terms of cyber. In every
0:04:19 > 0:04:22international forum Russia feels more uncomfortable, more under
0:04:22 > 0:04:28pressure. In a few months, they may think they have overreached and gone
0:04:28 > 0:04:36too far.When might we hear about any new measures?There is a meeting
0:04:36 > 0:04:42this morning. What normally happens is we get a readout from the lobby
0:04:42 > 0:04:49correspondence. We also may get an update on where the investigation
0:04:49 > 0:04:55is. Quite often the NAC -- NEC is briefed on that. Also what is going
0:04:55 > 0:05:01on in terms of the process of keeping some samples to the chemical
0:05:01 > 0:05:03weapons inspectors, who began their work yesterday.
0:05:03 > 0:05:09Thank you. Do you think Theresa May should exert further sanctions bear
0:05:09 > 0:05:13in mind the rhetoric has been quite strong on Russia?I agree with
0:05:13 > 0:05:19James. I think the danger with tit-for-tat is Putin is not the sort
0:05:19 > 0:05:23of guy who lets the other guy have the last word. There is a danger in
0:05:23 > 0:05:30ratcheting at up. We have plenty of backing within the European Union,
0:05:30 > 0:05:35at least from a diplomatic position. There will be no more new sanctions.
0:05:35 > 0:05:39The EU has done all it can. There has been an impressive show of
0:05:39 > 0:05:43Western unity. We have to fight to keep that. That is when the Russians
0:05:43 > 0:05:48start to feel the heat. If we keep doing small measures at commonly
0:05:48 > 0:05:53Russians retaliate, we are in danger of being outgunned. And it may not
0:05:53 > 0:05:58achieve that much.Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn said we need to engage
0:05:58 > 0:06:06with Russia. Expel the diplomats, what form or that engagement take?
0:06:06 > 0:06:11We haven't expelled all the diplomats. Back in the Cold War
0:06:11 > 0:06:18there was a channel of communication with Russia. There are all sorts of
0:06:18 > 0:06:22issues. We are still, I hope, talking about Syria behind the
0:06:22 > 0:06:26scenes. There are also divisions we need to talk to Russia about. We
0:06:26 > 0:06:31should not be cutting them off. Let's move on.
0:06:31 > 0:06:32Time for our daily quiz.
0:06:32 > 0:06:34The cash-strapped Parliamentary authorities have got into hot water
0:06:34 > 0:06:35for spending nearly £10,000.
0:06:35 > 0:06:37So our question for today is, what on?
0:06:37 > 0:06:38Is it...
0:06:38 > 0:06:40a) A home cinema for John Bercow's appartment.
0:06:40 > 0:06:42b) Money to stop the trees in Parliament's atrium from
0:06:42 > 0:06:43falling over.
0:06:43 > 0:06:45c) A relaxation room for stressed MPs.
0:06:45 > 0:06:48Or d) Training for MPs on how to use Instagram.
0:06:48 > 0:06:51At the end of the show Anand will give us
0:06:51 > 0:06:53the correct answer.
0:06:53 > 0:06:57You may have heard the words "Cambridge Analytica",
0:06:57 > 0:07:00"Facebook" and "elections" this morning and wondered
0:07:00 > 0:07:01what that's all about.
0:07:01 > 0:07:04Well, we'll try our best to explain.
0:07:04 > 0:07:07Cambridge Analytica is a political consultancy firm which is accused
0:07:07 > 0:07:12of using the data of 50 million Facebook members to influence the US
0:07:12 > 0:07:17presidential election in 2016.
0:07:17 > 0:07:20Last night Channel 4 News aired a film showing an undercover
0:07:20 > 0:07:24reporter posing as a potential client from Sri Lanka.
0:07:24 > 0:07:27Let's take a look what was said in the meeting between the reporter
0:07:27 > 0:07:30and Cambridge Analytica CEO Alexander Nix.
0:08:12 > 0:08:14Joining me now is the BBC's technology reporter, Zoe Kleinman,
0:08:14 > 0:08:19and Labour's Shadow Digital Minister, Liam Byrne.
0:08:19 > 0:08:26So we can you bring us up to date with the story? We have seen an
0:08:26 > 0:08:31excerpt there about some of the practices of Cambridge Analytica.
0:08:31 > 0:08:36They say it was exaggerated. What has been going on?They denied all
0:08:36 > 0:08:42wrongdoing. What they have been accused of is twofold. Number one,
0:08:42 > 0:08:48getting hold of an enormous amount of Facebook data, 50 million users.
0:08:48 > 0:08:52Using that data to target messages supporting Donald Trump in the
0:08:52 > 0:08:57run-up to the US presidential election. Number two, they have been
0:08:57 > 0:09:03filmed saying they are able to influence the elections by
0:09:03 > 0:09:07discrediting rivals, by setting up stayings, where they might be
0:09:07 > 0:09:12caught. It is against the law. Sending girls to politicians'
0:09:12 > 0:09:18houses. That sort of thing. They say they were taken out of context. They
0:09:18 > 0:09:20were playing along with the undercover reporters because they
0:09:20 > 0:09:25thought they may be clients. It has opened up enormous questions about
0:09:25 > 0:09:30what these companies are doing and how much influence they have.Liam
0:09:30 > 0:09:34Byrne, let's talk about harvesting data. Surely all political parties
0:09:34 > 0:09:41do this when they hire a consultants and they have election campaigns,
0:09:41 > 0:09:46they go aggressively after voters. Is this any different?Yes, it is
0:09:46 > 0:09:50different because they collected the data for one purpose and reused for
0:09:50 > 0:09:53something else. The reason we are all very concerned is because we
0:09:53 > 0:10:00know it is not just bad companies, there are bad countries as well. We
0:10:00 > 0:10:04know Russia intervened in the American elections, we know they
0:10:04 > 0:10:07intervened in France and Germany. There is a suspicion that could have
0:10:07 > 0:10:12been up to no good in the Brexit referendum. We need to make sure
0:10:12 > 0:10:16there is not an unholy alliance between bad companies and bad
0:10:16 > 0:10:22countries. We need to get the bottom of this. What we have learned is the
0:10:22 > 0:10:27information minister doesn't have the speed to get search warrants as
0:10:27 > 0:10:31she needs them. We were promised more laws on this last night. We
0:10:31 > 0:10:34have just heard this morning in the House of Commons the minister
0:10:34 > 0:10:41slightly backtracking from this and saying, no, we didn't guarantee
0:10:41 > 0:10:45Chilcot the information Commissioner with new laws. We will come back to
0:10:45 > 0:10:50you.You don't think they are going to do that?I thought last night
0:10:50 > 0:10:56there were but now I'm pretty alarmed they want.
0:10:57 > 0:10:59alarmed they want.At the time when this happened it was quite common
0:10:59 > 0:11:06practice. A man who is a Cambridge academic made a personality quiz
0:11:06 > 0:11:11that people could take on Facebook. Facebook has a set of instructions
0:11:11 > 0:11:15which it gives to all developers saw their stuff will work on the
0:11:15 > 0:11:20Facebook platform. At the time it was established as a default. If
0:11:20 > 0:11:24anybody use that, not only their data but the date of their friends
0:11:24 > 0:11:30would be collectable by the developer. This was common practice.
0:11:30 > 0:11:34This was guess your personality type, a fun game. It was played by
0:11:34 > 0:11:42about 270,000 people. But in the playing of that, and their friends
0:11:42 > 0:11:47networks etc, possibly reached up to 50 million users in terms of the
0:11:47 > 0:11:52data the app was able to harvest. The developer sold that data to
0:11:52 > 0:11:56Cambridge Analytica. Not only do we have a situation where Facebook's
0:11:56 > 0:11:59data should not have been sold on, but a situation where it is not
0:11:59 > 0:12:09transparent. Obama has an app which he used to get himself re-elected.
0:12:09 > 0:12:14It was very obvious what you're doing. Planning a personality game
0:12:14 > 0:12:19it was not obvious you are supporting Donald Trump.Where
0:12:19 > 0:12:23should the boundaries be, Liam Byrne? We all know when we complete
0:12:23 > 0:12:26quizzes or go shopping on the Internet, there is a box that asks
0:12:26 > 0:12:31if you are happy for the company to share your information. You hope if
0:12:31 > 0:12:35you do not take that box your information will not be shared.
0:12:35 > 0:12:41Presumably there are millions of people who tick the box, and perhaps
0:12:41 > 0:12:45they don't really care. Is that where the problem lies?The problem
0:12:45 > 0:12:49is twofold. Data was used in a way that it was not collected for.
0:12:49 > 0:12:55People were misled when they offered their data. The second real concern
0:12:55 > 0:12:59though is that Facebook say that they received assurances that the
0:12:59 > 0:13:03data was destroyed. Now it turns out that perhaps it wasn't. A real
0:13:03 > 0:13:08question about who provides the oversight and the guarantees that
0:13:08 > 0:13:13data is actually being used in the correct manner. And frankly, even
0:13:13 > 0:13:17the Secretary of State describes this as a wild West where there are
0:13:17 > 0:13:21no rules. That is why we are saying, isn't it time to give the sheriff a
0:13:21 > 0:13:26bit more power to bring some order? We asked Cambridge Analytica for an
0:13:26 > 0:13:29interview but nobody was available. One of the slightly shadowy things
0:13:29 > 0:13:42that has developed is when the DC MS Minister Damian Collins tweeted that
0:13:42 > 0:13:45Facebook were in the offices of Cambridge Analytica last night until
0:13:45 > 0:13:48they were told to stand down by the information Commissioner. What do
0:13:48 > 0:13:53you make of that?It is unusual and strains that the two had not been in
0:13:53 > 0:13:57touch. It is good that Facebook is deferring to the UK authorities. It
0:13:57 > 0:14:03is happening on UK soil.What will happen now, Liam Byrne? You would
0:14:03 > 0:14:07like new legislation and more powers for the information Commissioner.
0:14:07 > 0:14:12Would that do it? Three things need to change. The information
0:14:12 > 0:14:17Commissioner needs more power. Second, we are proposing an
0:14:17 > 0:14:21amendment called the honest ads act, which means the Commissioner has the
0:14:21 > 0:14:24power to find out who is paying for what ads. At the moment dark ads are
0:14:24 > 0:14:31very possible. The big changes that we to bring the legislation for
0:14:31 > 0:14:35these social media firms up to date. They are regulated by a law brought
0:14:35 > 0:14:40in in 2000, before they grew to the size and scale they are today. We
0:14:40 > 0:14:45will also propose an amendment that said said deadline for when the
0:14:45 > 0:14:49government needs to bring in that the legislation.Do you think there
0:14:49 > 0:14:54has been widespread interference in the way it has been interfering in
0:14:54 > 0:14:58election?It is hard to say. The digital minister has talked about
0:14:58 > 0:15:02these company having a duty of care towards their companies. I would
0:15:02 > 0:15:05imagine that includes our data not being used for things we were not
0:15:05 > 0:15:09told about initially, particularly when it comes to shaping political
0:15:09 > 0:15:16views. The best thing about this story is that at one point the Dr
0:15:16 > 0:15:20changed his name to Dr Spectre. It is surreal.
0:15:20 > 0:15:22This time yesterday, the Brexit Secretary, David Davis,
0:15:22 > 0:15:24was holding a press conference in Brussels, to announce agreement
0:15:24 > 0:15:27on a transition deal with the EU which covers the "implementation
0:15:27 > 0:15:29period" from next March until the end of 2020.
0:15:29 > 0:15:35Mr Davis said it was a "decisive step" in the Brexit process.
0:15:35 > 0:15:40The United Kingdom will be able to step out, sign and ratify new deals,
0:15:40 > 0:15:45new trade deals with old friends, and new allies, around the globe.
0:15:45 > 0:15:49For the first time in more than 40 years.
0:15:49 > 0:15:54These will come into force when the implementation period is over.
0:15:54 > 0:15:57Providing new opportunities for businesses across the United
0:15:57 > 0:16:03Kingdom, and seizing one of Brexit's greatest opportunities.
0:16:03 > 0:16:07That was the Brexit secretary David Davis yesterday. How big a moment
0:16:07 > 0:16:11was this, do you think? David Davis seems to think it was, was it?It
0:16:11 > 0:16:14was a big moment for a lot of companies in this country who had
0:16:14 > 0:16:19been crying out for this agreement so they didn't have to trigger
0:16:19 > 0:16:24contingency plans, so it was a step forward. To site the old saying
0:16:24 > 0:16:29nothing is agrees until everything is agreed and Jacob Rees-Mogg said
0:16:29 > 0:16:33yesterday, so there is a long want to go before this is wrapped up. Is
0:16:33 > 0:16:37How much did the Government give way in your mind?There are some areas
0:16:37 > 0:16:42on the transition deal where they gave away, so the rights of EU
0:16:42 > 0:16:44citizens who arrived during transition, are initially the Prime
0:16:44 > 0:16:48Minister said they won't have the same rights who arrived before
0:16:48 > 0:16:54Brexit day, now they will. And we will have to abide by new EU laws so
0:16:54 > 0:16:58the Government gave way on most of the points the EU was insisting on.
0:16:58 > 0:17:02Did the EU give way as well?They have given way on some the
0:17:02 > 0:17:07withdrawal points so on the rights of EU citizens they backed off their
0:17:07 > 0:17:10original demand but they seem to have got what they wanted.Were you
0:17:10 > 0:17:16surprised by the storm created over fishing rights?Yes and no. I mean
0:17:16 > 0:17:20there are lots of different constituencies involved in the
0:17:20 > 0:17:24Brexit vote and fishing was something where the government said
0:17:24 > 0:17:28early on and Brexiters said we will reclaim our fishing water, this is a
0:17:28 > 0:17:35direct contradiction so it was fairly predictable.Well, with us
0:17:35 > 0:17:42here is Nigel Evans and Alison McGovern.
0:17:43 > 0:17:46Take back control, have the fishermen and people who wanted to
0:17:46 > 0:17:50take back control of British waters and fishing rights have they been
0:17:50 > 0:17:57betrayed?No look I am looking for Jacob Rees-Mogg on within of those
0:17:57 > 0:18:02trawlers, no the reality is we will be in no worse off position during
0:18:02 > 0:18:05the transition period, it could be better, because it is open to
0:18:05 > 0:18:08negotiation, at the end of the period, after the transitional
0:18:08 > 0:18:15period, then we will have taken back control of our waters, one area I
0:18:15 > 0:18:21find odd, though, is Nicola Sturgeon saying this has let down the
0:18:21 > 0:18:25Scottish fishermen because frankly, if we stuck with what Nicola
0:18:25 > 0:18:29Sturgeon wants we would be stuck in the European Union for eternity and
0:18:29 > 0:18:34wouldn't have any control in 2020. It is not just Nicola Sturgeon. It
0:18:34 > 0:18:38is Scottish Tories who met with the Chief Whip and were told to stop
0:18:38 > 0:18:41whining because it is not like they are going to vote Labour, is that
0:18:41 > 0:18:45the way with your colleagues?No, they are meeting with the Prime
0:18:45 > 0:18:48Minister today, that is how important they are being taken. They
0:18:48 > 0:18:53have met with Michael Gove and we want to make certain in the whole
0:18:53 > 0:18:57mix we do, when we finally do leave the European Union after the
0:18:57 > 0:19:02transitional period, that we have got total control of our water, we
0:19:02 > 0:19:04are leaving the Common Fisheries Policy and we will be able to get
0:19:04 > 0:19:08the best deal for our fish American. Do you accept Alison McGovern. You
0:19:08 > 0:19:12are still behind the idea of remaining within the EU, do you
0:19:12 > 0:19:17accept that this was a moment that some success and progress has been
0:19:17 > 0:19:20madeThink there are is two problems with what has happened over
0:19:20 > 0:19:24transition, the first of those is that many of the big decisions are
0:19:24 > 0:19:27still being kicked down the road, whether that is the position of
0:19:27 > 0:19:31Ireland or what our eventual relationship will be, we still don't
0:19:31 > 0:19:37know, so, a lot of us talked about and the importance of a transition,
0:19:37 > 0:19:42when the first, vote first happened for the reason Anand Menon
0:19:42 > 0:19:46mentioned, which is businesses would need a long lead in to deal with the
0:19:46 > 0:19:52circumstances if that long lead is is still real really a road to know
0:19:52 > 0:19:56where, what are we talking about? We don't know what our relationship is
0:19:56 > 0:20:01going to be, and the second problem, is to be honest, people like Nigel,
0:20:01 > 0:20:06wept round in 2016 telling people, when we leaf the EU, we will take
0:20:06 > 0:20:11back control, we will have control of fishery, and the borders, and
0:20:11 > 0:20:15now, they are being told sorry, but that is not really what is on offer
0:20:15 > 0:20:20any more, and, I don't think that is good enough, really, for people in
0:20:20 > 0:20:23Britain, whether they voted leave or remain. I think people were told
0:20:23 > 0:20:27they could have something and they are being told we are going to have
0:20:27 > 0:20:35open borders, it is not really fair on people. That is a huge problem.I
0:20:35 > 0:20:39thought it was bizarre to see Michel Barnier and David Davis standing
0:20:39 > 0:20:44behind that board full of sheets with green ink over it, to o show
0:20:44 > 0:20:46where agreements were made and some where agreements are are still to
0:20:46 > 0:20:51happen. I agree with Alison, if it is is a road to know where I would
0:20:51 > 0:20:55be opposed to it. It's a red to leaving the European Union, so that
0:20:55 > 0:21:01at the end of 2020, after the transitional arrangement, both
0:21:01 > 0:21:06Alison and and I can have a drink of champagne in the strainers bar.
0:21:06 > 0:21:11Somehow I don't think I will.I'll buy.No thanks. That was clear.The
0:21:11 > 0:21:17issue of Northern Ireland, we are no further on than we were before, in
0:21:17 > 0:21:21order to not have an effective border we need to be in the single
0:21:21 > 0:21:27market. The Government is not dealing with that issue. IsDo you
0:21:27 > 0:21:32agree...Alison is saying unless we say in the single market, even
0:21:32 > 0:21:36Jeremy Corbyn isn't looking at. They are looking at fudged customs union.
0:21:36 > 0:21:42O do you make it would make it easier to solve the problem?No, we
0:21:42 > 0:21:46are got going to do it. We are said Theresa May has said there will be
0:21:46 > 0:21:49no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland.Do you agree
0:21:49 > 0:21:53with Alison on this point, about that border, that that hasn't been
0:21:53 > 0:22:00resolved. Itself is being kicked further down the road and by doing
0:22:00 > 0:22:05so, does it increase the chances of a solution being found.I agree on
0:22:05 > 0:22:10the fact if you are not in the single market or the customs union
0:22:10 > 0:22:13it is almost impossible. The government has talked about
0:22:13 > 0:22:17technology, the agreement doesn't just say no border, it says no
0:22:17 > 0:22:20physical infrastructure, now technology means cameras which is
0:22:20 > 0:22:23physical infrastructure, no-one has come up with a way of removing that
0:22:23 > 0:22:27border short of single market and customs union membership yet. That
0:22:27 > 0:22:30is open to discussion, I suspect what they want to do, is play chick
0:22:30 > 0:22:34within the Irish in a sense, they want to drag this out for as long as
0:22:34 > 0:22:38possible. The Irish have two problem, they don't want a border
0:22:38 > 0:22:42and they want to continue trading with us and the Government wants to
0:22:42 > 0:22:46push the border issue...The European Union wanted to put the
0:22:46 > 0:22:49cart before the horse, when hen you do that it is amazing the cart
0:22:49 > 0:22:54doesn't go all that far, what we need to do is deal with the UK EU
0:22:54 > 0:23:00border and if we get that right, now we can get on with that, the whole
0:23:00 > 0:23:06problem between Northern Ireland and Ireland disappears.It doesn't. The
0:23:06 > 0:23:12idea a trade deal gets rid of these issues is wrong, we would need to
0:23:12 > 0:23:15have full regulatory convergence and the only way do that is a single
0:23:15 > 0:23:21market. For people who think this is a non-issue, put yourself in the
0:23:21 > 0:23:25shoes of my age, who is Northern Irish, who has identity that looks
0:23:25 > 0:23:28both ways who has grown up with peace and imagine how this
0:23:28 > 0:23:33discussion feels to them of people dismissing concerns about the
0:23:33 > 0:23:38border. That is unfair.Are you going to join Jacob Rees-Mogg when
0:23:38 > 0:23:46he goes on that boat to discard the fish?I am not sure my sea legs are
0:23:46 > 0:23:57that good. No, it is not jubilati for Jacob Rees-Mogg but it is semi.
0:23:57 > 0:23:59And for more reporting and analysis of Brexit,
0:23:59 > 0:24:00check out the BBC News website.
0:24:00 > 0:24:02That's bbc.co.uk/brexit.
0:24:02 > 0:24:05For the last couple of years new dads have been entitled to take
0:24:05 > 0:24:08more time off work when their baby is born, sharing parental
0:24:08 > 0:24:09leave with their partner.
0:24:09 > 0:24:11But a report out today from the Equalities Select Committee says
0:24:11 > 0:24:13very few men are actually taking it.
0:24:13 > 0:24:16It argues the government should be doing much more to encourage fathers
0:24:16 > 0:24:18to stay at home, including increasing paternity pay.
0:24:18 > 0:24:21Elizabeth Glinka has been to meet one dad who has chosen to take time
0:24:21 > 0:24:29off with his young children.
0:24:29 > 0:24:33Shared parental leave is something that has been available to dads here
0:24:33 > 0:24:38in the UK since 2015 but the latest figures show that only between two
0:24:38 > 0:24:43and 8% of fathers are likely to take that up. We have come here to south
0:24:43 > 0:24:51London, to see Michael, and his two daughters. Hello. Hello. And Michael
0:24:51 > 0:24:56is a stay at home dad. Michael, what do you make of these figure, why do
0:24:56 > 0:24:59you think so few dads are taking up the opportunity of having time off
0:24:59 > 0:25:03with their children?Think it is a difficult decision to make, there
0:25:03 > 0:25:08are still a lot of barriers cultural and economic to deciding to really
0:25:08 > 0:25:12take time off for your kids. What difference has it made to you
0:25:12 > 0:25:15having time off with the children?I think it has been great for me h it
0:25:15 > 0:25:20has brought out a lot of different aspects of my personality, I have
0:25:20 > 0:25:26learned to be more patient and more caring, as a person, and for the
0:25:26 > 0:25:30kids, I think I have managed to develop a much closer relationship
0:25:30 > 0:25:34with them.When you tell people you are a stay at home dad, how do they
0:25:34 > 0:25:40react to that?I get different types of reaction, a lot of times people
0:25:40 > 0:25:44commend me but I think that is strange because you would never
0:25:44 > 0:25:48commend a mother for staying home and taking care of their children.
0:25:48 > 0:25:54Other times people just are a little surprised I have decided to take a
0:25:54 > 0:25:57year off of my professional activity to watch my children.So what do you
0:25:57 > 0:26:01think would make a difference, in terms of encouraging more men to
0:26:01 > 0:26:06actually do what you are doing?I think that if we are really as a
0:26:06 > 0:26:11society looking for pay equality, and for equality gender equality, in
0:26:11 > 0:26:15general, we need to start at home, as well. So I think that the
0:26:15 > 0:26:21Government could make some efforts, to ensure that all fathers are paid
0:26:21 > 0:26:26and enjoy longer paternity leave, but I also think it's a question
0:26:26 > 0:26:31that should be addressed, in the family, and in the home.OK, thank
0:26:31 > 0:26:37you very much. And thank you girls shall we baefc to the studio? Can we
0:26:37 > 0:26:43wave. Bye. They were very well behaved there.
0:26:43 > 0:26:44They were very well behaved there.
0:26:44 > 0:26:46Maria Miller chairs the Equalities Select Committee,
0:26:46 > 0:26:48and joins us now from central lobby inside parliament.
0:26:48 > 0:26:51Welcome to the programme, take up of the Government shared parental leave
0:26:51 > 0:26:56policy is as low as 2%, does that surprise you?Well, it does on one
0:26:56 > 0:27:01level when you look at the fact that more than half of new dads want to
0:27:01 > 0:27:06be able to spend more time with their children, and are talking
0:27:06 > 0:27:10about down trading their jobs to be able do that, so the low take up of
0:27:10 > 0:27:16share is aed parental leave showses that you know, family have
0:27:16 > 0:27:19modernised more quickly than the workplace has.Does it mean it is a
0:27:19 > 0:27:25failure the policy?It is a policy that needs review, and the Select
0:27:25 > 0:27:28Committee report we have published today tells the Government how they
0:27:28 > 0:27:34should review that, by firstly, giving dads 90% of pay for their
0:27:34 > 0:27:41parental leave they give the pattern the I leave they have for two weeks
0:27:41 > 0:27:45but having 12 weeks protected time for dads during the first week,
0:27:45 > 0:27:51first year of a child's life to make sure that dads take that. It is a
0:27:51 > 0:27:56use it or lose it which we know works to change the culture and get
0:27:56 > 0:28:00dads to take this leave rather than have to say just continuing in the
0:28:00 > 0:28:05old ways.Right and just to clarify would they get paid the 90% of their
0:28:05 > 0:28:09earnings during that time?At the moment we haven't got a full costing
0:28:09 > 0:28:15for that, we want Government to look at it as part of their review of
0:28:15 > 0:28:20their policies is on Shahhed parental leave but we have to
0:28:20 > 0:28:24believe they get paid more because as your interviewer has said that is
0:28:24 > 0:28:28one of the reasons dads are not taking up this important part of
0:28:28 > 0:28:31their children's lives.No doubt the take up would be high perthe
0:28:31 > 0:28:35policies is as you explained them get put into force but are companies
0:28:35 > 0:28:40signed up to this idea of losing members of staff, key members of
0:28:40 > 0:28:44staff for that length of time?What we are hearing now from larger
0:28:44 > 0:28:51companies, who perhaps are looking at this in more detail is they are
0:28:51 > 0:28:57equalising the support, to allow dads to have more paid leave, but I
0:28:57 > 0:29:02am not sure the company, the country can afford to ignore this, because
0:29:02 > 0:29:08we have got so many new dads who are saying they could down trade their
0:29:08 > 0:29:15jobs, leave the labour market and if the government wants to tackle the
0:29:15 > 0:29:20gender pay gap, they won't really tackle that until they have tackled
0:29:20 > 0:29:25the issue of dads taking up more of those caring responsibilities,
0:29:25 > 0:29:28particularly in the first year.Do you think if Government is committed
0:29:28 > 0:29:34enough to closing the gender pay gap and helping dads stay at home who
0:29:34 > 0:29:37have newborn kids, because although the proposals are better on the face
0:29:37 > 0:29:42of it, are they really radical enough to reverse the sort of gender
0:29:42 > 0:29:46roles in the way they are set?I think they are radical enough to get
0:29:46 > 0:29:49dads to really think again about their role in their children's lives
0:29:49 > 0:29:53and ability to take time off, particularly if they are low paid,
0:29:53 > 0:29:58but you know, the most important thing the Prime Minister said
0:29:58 > 0:30:02recently in this topic she is supporting flexible working from day
0:30:02 > 0:30:08one and wants to see businesses take that and that, of course, would
0:30:08 > 0:30:14really benefit not only dads but mums who often fail to get the good
0:30:14 > 0:30:22quality jobs to get back into the labour market and get rid of this
0:30:22 > 0:30:25dreadful gender pay gap. I think there are positive noises coming
0:30:25 > 0:30:29from the Government and I hope this Select Committee report today will
0:30:29 > 0:30:33give them further food for thought.
0:30:33 > 0:30:35We've been joined by John Adams, who runs Dad Blog UK,
0:30:35 > 0:30:37and by Kate Andrews from the Institute for
0:30:37 > 0:30:42Economic Affairs.
0:30:42 > 0:30:45Welcome. What do you think of the proposals and the way Maria Miller
0:30:45 > 0:30:52explained them?I am in favour of the majority of the proposals. The
0:30:52 > 0:30:57one about parental leave is a bit confusing. I'm not sure if the
0:30:57 > 0:31:02committee is proposing we do away with shared parental leave.The
0:31:02 > 0:31:06implication seems to be a few overhaul the system, that you would
0:31:06 > 0:31:11somehow abandon shared parental leave. Would you be in favour of
0:31:11 > 0:31:15that?No, I think it is a bit too soon to abandon shared parental
0:31:15 > 0:31:21leave. Where other nations have introduced it, Sweden, Iceland, for
0:31:21 > 0:31:28example, where they have introduced ring-fenced leave for a father 's,
0:31:28 > 0:31:37stand-alone leave, what you've got is a much greater male participation
0:31:37 > 0:31:39domestically, greater female participation in the workforce and
0:31:39 > 0:31:43greater gender equality all round. It does come at a cost to business,
0:31:43 > 0:31:50it has to be said.But a price worth paying because of the benefits to
0:31:50 > 0:31:56society?The policy should not be to get an equal split between men and
0:31:56 > 0:31:59women doing the same thing. It should be to give partners the
0:31:59 > 0:32:03freedom to choose what is right for them in their own home, whether that
0:32:03 > 0:32:06is the woman staying at home, the man will stop regardless, it should
0:32:06 > 0:32:15be a free choice. It should be as flexible as possible. In terms of
0:32:15 > 0:32:19paternity pay, I support the decision to increase it. Small
0:32:19 > 0:32:22businesses can reclaim most of the costs from the government. It is a
0:32:22 > 0:32:27cost to the taxpayer but it may be something we want to prioritise and
0:32:27 > 0:32:31Lagarde in a separate discussion. I am more concerned about essentially
0:32:31 > 0:32:34required badly. This is the government saying if you don't make
0:32:34 > 0:32:41the decision, we will threaten Terry -- to use it might lose it, threaten
0:32:41 > 0:32:46your benefits or your time off if you don't do what we want. In
0:32:46 > 0:32:50countries like Sweden they have had problems getting men to take it up.
0:32:50 > 0:32:55They still do not have a 50-50 split.
0:32:55 > 0:33:03Do men actually want this? Would it work?I think Kate is right. We are
0:33:03 > 0:33:07not getting to 50-50. We shouldn't really be looking at having a great
0:33:07 > 0:33:14world where childcare is shared, or moment that work part-time. It has
0:33:14 > 0:33:17to be what is right for each individual family. These proposals
0:33:17 > 0:33:21will create flexibility so families can choose what is right for them.
0:33:21 > 0:33:25There are barriers in place at the minute would stop them from showing
0:33:25 > 0:33:37their abilities as carers for children within the family unit.
0:33:37 > 0:33:41This policy has worked. It may sound heavy-handed, but it is a case of
0:33:41 > 0:33:47changing work and culture.Will it do that, do you think? Isn't Eddie
0:33:47 > 0:33:50Kidd until the working culture changes, you will not get the
0:33:50 > 0:33:56flexibility?The key is changing culture. That is why they are
0:33:56 > 0:33:59adopting this sort of approach. In the workplace at the moment it is
0:33:59 > 0:34:05still considered a bit odd that the dad is going to do this. Introducing
0:34:05 > 0:34:08the system as a way of bringing about a cultural shift. You don't
0:34:08 > 0:34:16have three choices.Culturally we have so much of a problem. Hopefully
0:34:16 > 0:34:20the future generations will move in that direction. I agree completely.
0:34:20 > 0:34:25They haven't done it so far. Is it because the law is not favouring
0:34:25 > 0:34:30them and the culture is not changing quickly enough?You do not bring in
0:34:30 > 0:34:33heavy-handed policies to force people to do something that may not
0:34:33 > 0:34:36be right in their individual circumstances. Increasing paternity
0:34:36 > 0:34:40pay, making it easier for men to take time off work, that is one
0:34:40 > 0:34:44thing. But saying everybody has to do it this way is what I am not
0:34:44 > 0:34:47comfortable with.What are the challenges you face being a stay at
0:34:47 > 0:34:54home dad at the beginning? When I was on paternity leave, you didn't
0:34:54 > 0:35:00see many men at all. Is it difficult?It is. The biggest issue
0:35:00 > 0:35:09is social isolation. The issue you have is that women will be
0:35:09 > 0:35:13socialised from before their child is born. It carries on into nursery.
0:35:13 > 0:35:19You do not always become a stay at home dad from day one because mum is
0:35:19 > 0:35:22breast-feeding. Very often you become one through redundancy or
0:35:22 > 0:35:29other things. There are tightly knit social groups already formed among
0:35:29 > 0:35:35women. You have to make your way into them. What is really sad, my
0:35:35 > 0:35:43own daughters get socially instituted, but you're stoned.That
0:35:43 > 0:35:49is a shame. From any would like to stay at home and they hear these
0:35:49 > 0:35:56stories, which are true, from personal experience, it will put men
0:35:56 > 0:36:01off, never mind the cultural practices at work?Of course. It
0:36:01 > 0:36:03starts in the home. Men and women need to have some serious
0:36:03 > 0:36:07conversations about how they want to raise their kids. Mum and dad are
0:36:07 > 0:36:11illegal. We want to see them do similar roles at home or at work.
0:36:11 > 0:36:16Women need to be stronger about this and have serious and frank
0:36:16 > 0:36:19conversations with every male partner, to say, it is not just on
0:36:19 > 0:36:24me to do the housework. Men are becoming more receptive to that,
0:36:24 > 0:36:28which is positive.On the gender pay gap that Maria Miller talked about,
0:36:28 > 0:36:32she said some of these moves will have to deal with the gender pay gap
0:36:32 > 0:36:38that she says blight the lives of so many women over 35. Do you agree?
0:36:38 > 0:36:41Queue equalised between the genders in terms of who looks after the
0:36:41 > 0:36:45kids, absolutely. One of the reasons for the gender pay gap was that
0:36:45 > 0:36:48women disproportionately looked the kids. So yes, I would imagine it
0:36:48 > 0:36:57would.The main reason for gender pay gap is a mother pay gap. Many
0:36:57 > 0:37:01figures are distorted. If you're going to tackle it you have to have
0:37:01 > 0:37:03more women pursuing the same career trajectories as men.
0:37:03 > 0:37:04Thank you.
0:37:04 > 0:37:06Later today, Labour will confirm who will be taking over
0:37:06 > 0:37:08as the party's new General Secretary.
0:37:08 > 0:37:14Iain Watson is across the story.
0:37:15 > 0:37:20Why should we care about who the new general secretary is?There are two
0:37:20 > 0:37:25reasons. This is hugely symbolic because we are having two female
0:37:25 > 0:37:32candidates competing for this role. Christine Blower, who used to be in
0:37:32 > 0:37:35charge of the annuity, and Jennie Formby from the Unite union.
0:37:35 > 0:37:39Secondly, both are on the left of the party. Symbolically this shows
0:37:39 > 0:37:45how the party is shifting towards those who support Jeremy Corbyn's
0:37:45 > 0:37:48leadership and heavy party machine will effectively be in the hands of
0:37:48 > 0:37:53those around his leadership, whoever wins. -- how the party machine.
0:37:53 > 0:37:57Jennie Formby is the favourite. She is a close personal and political
0:37:57 > 0:38:07ally of Len McCluskey, who heads the biggest union fonder of Labour. She
0:38:07 > 0:38:12will be working in tune with the leadership and the Labour leader's
0:38:12 > 0:38:15office, perhaps a lot more so than the previous incumbent, who was
0:38:15 > 0:38:21elected under Ed Miliband. Some of the areas she will be looking at is
0:38:21 > 0:38:25how to change the Labour Party campaigns, using some of the
0:38:25 > 0:38:28techniques that got Jeremy Corbyn elected and re-elected as Labour
0:38:28 > 0:38:33leader, using them more widely in terms of the Labour Party. More
0:38:33 > 0:38:37grassroots campaigning as well. One of the other reasons we should be
0:38:37 > 0:38:40watching closely is she is also going to be the person who
0:38:40 > 0:38:44implements the party's democracy review. It can change the way the
0:38:44 > 0:38:48Labour Party operates. Again, giving more power to the members, shifting
0:38:48 > 0:38:53the balance of power away from some of the MPs. She could be a highly
0:38:53 > 0:38:59influential figure.Explain why a number of Labour staffers walked
0:38:59 > 0:39:04out?Yes, some key staff left. Six yesterday. Before that, the general
0:39:04 > 0:39:10secretary. Before that the person in charge of elections and campaigns.
0:39:10 > 0:39:13Some big losses. Most of them leaving in the next few months. And
0:39:13 > 0:39:16certainly in some cases they felt they were more in tune with the
0:39:16 > 0:39:19previous regime than the likely regime under somebody who is firmly
0:39:19 > 0:39:25on the left of the party, closely connected to the United macro trade
0:39:25 > 0:39:30union. Some of those leaving felt more comfortable under previous
0:39:30 > 0:39:34Labour leaders. Some had worked for Tony Blair and Gordon Brown. This
0:39:34 > 0:39:41also gives the person coming in, likely to be Jennie Formby, room for
0:39:41 > 0:39:45manoeuvre in reshaping the party machine, reshaping the backroom role
0:39:45 > 0:39:49of the party, more in the image of those who have supported Jeremy
0:39:49 > 0:39:51Corbyn's leadership all along.Thank you.
0:39:51 > 0:39:54I've been joined in the studio by the Labour backbencher
0:39:54 > 0:39:55and supporter of Jeremy Corbyn, Chris Williamson, and
0:39:55 > 0:39:58by Margaret Prosser, a Labour peer and former President
0:39:58 > 0:40:00of the TUC.
0:40:00 > 0:40:07Welcome. Margaret Prosser, do you have any reservations about the
0:40:07 > 0:40:11outcome of this election?I've got a lot of reservations about the way
0:40:11 > 0:40:17the whole thing has been organised. In a way you could describe the
0:40:17 > 0:40:22general secretary of the Labour Party as being the civil servant of
0:40:22 > 0:40:26the organisation. Obviously it is a political party, obviously the
0:40:26 > 0:40:31general secretary is good to be a person with a political background,
0:40:31 > 0:40:33political membership. But that person has two slightly stand above
0:40:33 > 0:40:40the fray. The way this has been conducted, as soon as a vacancy was
0:40:40 > 0:40:45announced, it was almost immediately announced by senior people within
0:40:45 > 0:40:49the party, senior members of Parliament, that Jennie Formby would
0:40:49 > 0:40:56be a really good candidate. Now there should be, there is, a person
0:40:56 > 0:41:01specification for this job. There is an application form, and interview
0:41:01 > 0:41:04process, other candidates. How is it that the leadership of the party has
0:41:04 > 0:41:09decided who they want before any that process has been conducted?
0:41:09 > 0:41:14They may say they have a preference. They may say that. But this puts the
0:41:14 > 0:41:20whole thing into some kind of a shambles. It just is really not
0:41:20 > 0:41:26fair.Why has the leadership done that for a post that is supposed to
0:41:26 > 0:41:31be above the party political fray? First of all it is not an election,
0:41:31 > 0:41:35it is an appointment by the National executive. The leadership doesn't
0:41:35 > 0:41:41the point. It is the NEC that will appoint.Should they have expressed
0:41:41 > 0:41:45such a firm preference for Jennie Formby?I'm not sure Jeremy has
0:41:45 > 0:41:50expressed any preference one way or the other. It is a matter for the
0:41:50 > 0:41:54National Executive Committee. We have two incredibly tandem with --
0:41:54 > 0:41:59talented candidates who I think will serve the party will be well. They
0:41:59 > 0:42:02are effectively the civil service of the Labour Party. The Labour Party
0:42:02 > 0:42:06is a flourishing party now. It is very much in tune with the British
0:42:06 > 0:42:11people and we are going to have a general secretary who will ensure
0:42:11 > 0:42:16that we implement Labour's programme throughout the membership of the
0:42:16 > 0:42:21party, and helps to mobilise this mass movement the Labour Party is
0:42:21 > 0:42:25now, to carry Jeremy over the threshold of Number 10 when the
0:42:25 > 0:42:28general election comes and bring more people into the party. It has
0:42:28 > 0:42:35to be a good thing.Do Jeremy Corbyn not express a preference in the way
0:42:35 > 0:42:40that you thought due Everybody around him is expressed a
0:42:40 > 0:42:45preference.
0:42:46 > 0:42:51preference.That is my point. The whole view has been that Jennie
0:42:51 > 0:42:55Formby is going to be the right person for the job. I have known her
0:42:55 > 0:43:01since the early 1980s. She is a very capable woman. Whether or not she is
0:43:01 > 0:43:04right for this position, would be a matter for another discussion.Do
0:43:04 > 0:43:10not think she is right?The party is split down the middle. I have to
0:43:10 > 0:43:15remind everybody that just because I am not a Corbyn fan does not make me
0:43:15 > 0:43:18a right-winger. I have never in my life been a right winger. I am on
0:43:18 > 0:43:22the progressive left of the party. Loads of people who express
0:43:22 > 0:43:26themselves to be on the left are actually quite reactionary in many
0:43:26 > 0:43:33ways.Do you feel you are being described as a right winger?If you
0:43:33 > 0:43:38are a Blairite, my goodness, you might as well hide yourself away. It
0:43:38 > 0:43:41is a pathetic way of describing what is going on in the party, and we
0:43:41 > 0:43:45need somebody in that general secretary position who is going to
0:43:45 > 0:43:53be able to bring people together.Do you accept it is split? That is
0:43:53 > 0:44:01Margaret Prosser's perception. Margaret would show she is not a
0:44:01 > 0:44:07right-winger -- would say. Do you accept that is the current state of
0:44:07 > 0:44:12the Labour Party?Margaret says the party is split down the middle. I
0:44:12 > 0:44:15absolutely disagree with that. I have been a member for 42 years and
0:44:15 > 0:44:20I have never known to more united. It is true, there are a handful of
0:44:20 > 0:44:25people who don't like the direction of travel. There are a few people in
0:44:25 > 0:44:29the Parliamentary Labour Party. Hold on a second, Margaret, the
0:44:29 > 0:44:34Parliamentary Labour Party is not the Labour Party. We are a party of
0:44:34 > 0:44:38600,000 members. Overwhelming support for it. The other important
0:44:38 > 0:44:44thing is that Labour's programme is very much in tune with the
0:44:44 > 0:44:49overwhelming majority of the British people. Let's just remember that. We
0:44:49 > 0:44:53are incredibly moderate and mainstream. That is the Labour Party
0:44:53 > 0:44:57now. Plain common sense is what we are offering.Do you welcome this
0:44:57 > 0:45:02move to allow the members do have more say? Do you agree the
0:45:02 > 0:45:07Parliamentary Labour Party is not the Labour Party?I of course
0:45:07 > 0:45:11welcome a move to engage more and more people. What I don't welcome is
0:45:11 > 0:45:15the way in which this has been organised. We do have loads of
0:45:15 > 0:45:21people engaged with Momentum, who are also members of other parties.
0:45:21 > 0:45:26That is not true.It is true. We know it is true.I'm sorry, but it
0:45:26 > 0:45:33is not true. You can't be a member of Momentum unless you are a member
0:45:33 > 0:45:36of the Labour Party. They did a fantastic job in mobilising people
0:45:36 > 0:45:47at the last election.That was not what I said.
0:45:50 > 0:45:53what I said.Go on.What I said was there are many people in momentum
0:45:53 > 0:45:58who are also members of other parties. Well, research has shown
0:45:58 > 0:46:04that is the case. Secondly, if the vast majority of people in this
0:46:04 > 0:46:06country agree with the current position of the Labour Party, how
0:46:06 > 0:46:13come we didn't win the election? I absolutely accept that the manifesto
0:46:13 > 0:46:18met the grievances and the upsets and the awful situations, that many
0:46:18 > 0:46:22people find themselves in, where I kind of differ as we go along that
0:46:22 > 0:46:26path, is who is going to deliver that programme for us? I have no
0:46:26 > 0:46:32faith that the current leadership would be able to do that.We had the
0:46:32 > 0:46:37biggest increase in vote share since 1945.But you didn't win.The reason
0:46:37 > 0:46:41is there was a view abroad and that is true of the party head office,
0:46:41 > 0:46:45that pause we were a long way behind in the opinion polls so it is
0:46:45 > 0:46:50understandable and they were fighting a defensive campaign. If we
0:46:50 > 0:46:55fought an offensive campaign.You thought they fought a defensive
0:46:55 > 0:47:02campaign?No I think the party head office were fighting a defensive
0:47:02 > 0:47:10campaign...Let me ask one final question...Given the opposition in
0:47:10 > 0:47:13the election was the Conservative Party, who fought the worst campaign
0:47:13 > 0:47:18in living memory.And we fought the best campaign.Leave that aside, the
0:47:18 > 0:47:23fact of the matter is, that the leadership of the administration of
0:47:23 > 0:47:27the party needs to be a person to bring everyone together and you may
0:47:27 > 0:47:32take the view that the party is not split down the middle. I think that
0:47:32 > 0:47:37is utter tosh, Chris, frankly.I can assure you in all the meetings I go
0:47:37 > 0:47:41to, there is huge support for the agenda that Jeremy is spearheading
0:47:41 > 0:47:45now.We have to finish the discussion, you won't agree on that
0:47:45 > 0:47:51which is fair enough. We will find out later or have that appointment
0:47:51 > 0:47:54confirmed, the Labour Party are saying that staff haven't walked
0:47:54 > 0:48:00out, in the way I expressed it, they are working their three month notice
0:48:00 > 0:48:06period but they are leaving, as a result of the way this is handled
0:48:06 > 0:48:09and you may say that is what happens when there is a change of the guard.
0:48:09 > 0:48:11Thank you both for joining us.
0:48:11 > 0:48:13Thank you both for joining us.
0:48:13 > 0:48:15Later this afternoon, a mother and her six-year-old son will be
0:48:15 > 0:48:19heading to Downing Street to present a petition calling for him to be
0:48:19 > 0:48:21granted a special licence to use medical cannabis.
0:48:21 > 0:48:24Alfie Dingley has a rare form of epilepsy and can suffer as many
0:48:24 > 0:48:26as 30 seizures a day.
0:48:26 > 0:48:27Our reporter Greg Dawson is live at College Green
0:48:27 > 0:48:35with Alfie and Hannah now...
0:48:35 > 0:48:39Thank you 380,000 signatures on that petition, which will be presented to
0:48:39 > 0:48:45Number Ten this afternoon. It is all about this boy, six-year-old Alfie,
0:48:45 > 0:48:48he has enjoyed his day today, he has been given a red bus which he has
0:48:48 > 0:48:54loved rolling round here, his mother Hannah is with us, Hannah, just tell
0:48:54 > 0:48:56us a bit more about Alfie's condition please.Alfie has a very
0:48:56 > 0:49:01rare condition, there is only nine boys in the world with PCHD19. It is
0:49:01 > 0:49:06genetic, it is very rare, there is no understanding about how to treat
0:49:06 > 0:49:10it, and it is very aggressive and we, he has had a very difficult time
0:49:10 > 0:49:14since he was a baby.You have taken him to the Netherlands where he was
0:49:14 > 0:49:20treated with cannabis oil. Talk to me about the differences that you
0:49:20 > 0:49:24noticed.Before we went to Holland Alfie was in hospital every four to
0:49:24 > 0:49:31ten days with a severe cluster of seizures needing up to five doses of
0:49:31 > 0:49:36steroids plus other medicines, he had tonic chronic seizures where he
0:49:36 > 0:49:40went purple. Very frightening. He would always need a balance. We
0:49:40 > 0:49:45lived like that for 18 months and it is the most horrendous thing we have
0:49:45 > 0:49:51had to endure, it was awful. Our doctor said if we carry on Alfie
0:49:51 > 0:49:55would become very sick, you know, possibly get psychosis or his organs
0:49:55 > 0:50:01would fail and he could die. We had no choice, we took him to Holland
0:50:01 > 0:50:07Add and you noticed a huge change. He has one seizure a month. One dose
0:50:07 > 0:50:12of steroids, he had a happy life. He noticed his sister, he played with
0:50:12 > 0:50:15her, we had family days together, which were normal and we hadn't had
0:50:15 > 0:50:20that for a long time. It was a miracle for us and we wanted to
0:50:20 > 0:50:23replicate that in the UK, with our family and with our friends and with
0:50:23 > 0:50:29our job, and you know try to get back to some sort of normality.At
0:50:29 > 0:50:34the moment Alfie cannot have that cannabis oil, he had a seizure last
0:50:34 > 0:50:37week, naturally he becomes ago sieve, and that is difficult for you
0:50:37 > 0:50:43to manage.It is horrendous, I get no help other than from family, he
0:50:43 > 0:50:47has a seizure on Monday night. We had to rush him into hospital and he
0:50:47 > 0:50:50carried on having seizures on Tuesday so he had two doses of
0:50:50 > 0:50:55steroids, this is what he does to me, if you look at my hands, this is
0:50:55 > 0:51:01what he does, he is aggressive, he is angry, he does, I am frightened,
0:51:01 > 0:51:03I can't leave him alone with his sister, it is horrendous, he
0:51:03 > 0:51:07couldn't go to school because I can't put him in a situation at
0:51:07 > 0:51:12school where he might hurt other children, it is no life and we have
0:51:12 > 0:51:16gone from having a lovely life, in another country, to having a
0:51:16 > 0:51:21horrible life again where I am a full-time carer, it is very
0:51:21 > 0:51:24stressful, very upsetting is and it is more upsetting because I know
0:51:24 > 0:51:29none of it needs to happen.The Home Office said they couldn't let you
0:51:29 > 0:51:32use licensed this medication in the UK, subsequently they said they
0:51:32 > 0:51:37would consider a three month trial, but they could make no promise, you
0:51:37 > 0:51:40haven't heard anything since that, that was about three months ago,
0:51:40 > 0:51:45what is your response to this delay? It is very upsetting, we are getting
0:51:45 > 0:51:49a lot of platitudes, we are getting people saying we understand your
0:51:49 > 0:51:53situation, they don't, they don't live my life every day, they don't
0:51:53 > 0:51:58live my son's life, we want clear clarity, we want to understand that
0:51:58 > 0:52:01they are committed to helping Alfie, committed to helping our family, we
0:52:01 > 0:52:07want them to make that public and we want them to help our doctor, to
0:52:07 > 0:52:10prescribe this and get a licence. Without their support and without
0:52:10 > 0:52:14them driving this, this won't happen and it needs to come from them. I am
0:52:14 > 0:52:19a full-time care e my partner is trying to keep a roof on our heads,
0:52:19 > 0:52:23it is not my job to do this, it is the Home Office's job to make this
0:52:23 > 0:52:28happen and today, we want clarity and we want their support publicly.
0:52:28 > 0:52:32Thank you for joining me Hannah. Hannah Deacon and Alfie who is over
0:52:32 > 0:52:37there. A lot of supporters including Sir Patrick Stewart. Just quickly,
0:52:37 > 0:52:41we only have a few seconds but outline the reasons you are
0:52:41 > 0:52:46supporting the case?Because it is exceptional and it is urgent, and
0:52:46 > 0:52:53the longer wider process of the uses of medical marijuana in the UK will
0:52:53 > 0:52:58have to be discussed. This case has extreme urgency attacks to it and I
0:52:58 > 0:53:05would hope -- attached to it, I hope would the Home Office will come to a
0:53:05 > 0:53:08conclusion in Alfie's favour very quickly.Thank you to your guests
0:53:08 > 0:53:13there. That case was very powerfully and
0:53:13 > 0:53:18emotionally put to the Home Office, do you think that should consider
0:53:18 > 0:53:24it, they weren't available to do an interview?This is a total no
0:53:24 > 0:53:29brainer, where it can can do good, you regulate it and use it. Drugs
0:53:29 > 0:53:34they press crane asking dangerous and have side effects which is the
0:53:34 > 0:53:38case with marijuana, but when it can alleviate suffering, I don't see the
0:53:38 > 0:53:43case for not.What you to say when they have stalled in terms of a
0:53:43 > 0:53:48response to granting a pilot, even for three months, to give some sort
0:53:48 > 0:53:52of leaf to Anna and Alfie?Who knows what processes go on within
0:53:52 > 0:53:56departments. It is not unusual for things to get stalled in the system.
0:53:56 > 0:54:00With luck the publicity this case is getting will do something to shift
0:54:00 > 0:54:03the wheels of the Home Office, but I don't understand why this can't just
0:54:03 > 0:54:08be done.And if the Home Office would like to get in tough with the
0:54:08 > 0:54:11programme and we would be delighted to talk to anyone from the
0:54:11 > 0:54:16department to find out if they will make an exception, in the case of
0:54:16 > 0:54:21Alfie. While we have been talking I have two other bits of news to bring
0:54:21 > 0:54:26you, first of all a letter that has been sent by Jean-Claude Juncker,
0:54:26 > 0:54:31and this is from the European Commission head, congratulating
0:54:31 > 0:54:36Vladimir Putin on his re-election, in the letter Jean-Claude Juncker
0:54:36 > 0:54:38says I have argued that positive relations between the European Union
0:54:38 > 0:54:41and the Russian Federation are crucial to the security of our
0:54:41 > 0:54:47continent and our common objective should be to reestablish a
0:54:47 > 0:54:50co-operative pan-European security order. I hope you will use your
0:54:50 > 0:54:56fourth term in office to pursue this goal and I wish you every success in
0:54:56 > 0:54:58carrying out your responsibilities. Is that appropriate what we are
0:54:58 > 0:55:03going through at the moment?I think the phrase that comes to mind is
0:55:03 > 0:55:09tone deaf. What is interesting it is Sarah Wollaston who has confirmed
0:55:09 > 0:55:16this. Who a lot of people would have had down as a potential rebel so it
0:55:16 > 0:55:23is interesting it will feed into how people feel.Briefly we are talking
0:55:23 > 0:55:30about Cambridge Analytica and how data has been harvested and the DCMS
0:55:30 > 0:55:36has confirmed it has request that Mark Zuckerberg the CEO of Facebook
0:55:36 > 0:55:40appear before the committee's fake news inquiry.
0:55:40 > 0:55:42news inquiry.
0:55:42 > 0:55:45Time to find out the answer to our quiz.
0:55:45 > 0:55:46The question was, what has Parliament just spend £10,000 on?
0:55:46 > 0:55:48a) A home cinema for John Bercow's appartment.
0:55:48 > 0:55:50b) Money to stopt the trees in Parliament's atrium
0:55:50 > 0:55:51from falling over.
0:55:51 > 0:55:53c) A relaxation room for stressed MPs.
0:55:53 > 0:55:55Or d) Training for MPs on how to use Instagram.
0:55:55 > 0:55:57So Anand, what's the correct answer?
0:55:57 > 0:56:02I think I know. I think it's B. Is Which were...?The trees.You were
0:56:02 > 0:56:09right. Pathetically excited or not. You don't get to take
0:56:09 > 0:56:11You don't get to take a tree home.
0:56:11 > 0:56:13Believe it or not, the fig trees are costing nearly
0:56:13 > 0:56:14£10,000 to keep straight.
0:56:14 > 0:56:16Even without this, the trees cost £20,000 a year
0:56:16 > 0:56:19as it is to maintain, and this has led to calls for root
0:56:19 > 0:56:21and branch reform.
0:56:21 > 0:56:23The Commons has ordered a review into how to keep costs down
0:56:23 > 0:56:25leading to speculation the trees could be axed.
0:56:25 > 0:56:33However a spokesman has said:
0:56:52 > 0:56:53We've been joined in the studio
0:56:53 > 0:57:01by Freddie Blackett, who runs an indoor gardening company.
0:57:02 > 0:57:08What is the plant?It is difficult to remember the Latin name, we call
0:57:08 > 0:57:13him big Ken.That is better! Do you think fig trees were the right trees
0:57:13 > 0:57:18for lining the atrium?In short, I don't. I think these particular
0:57:18 > 0:57:24types of figs are native to propical -- tropical conditions.We haven't
0:57:24 > 0:57:30had a lot that?They are suited to warm low light conditions can and as
0:57:30 > 0:57:34you can see Portcullis House does not provide at least those light
0:57:34 > 0:57:41conditions, and you know, it is that type of space is better suited to
0:57:41 > 0:57:45plants like succulent, palms rather than tropical plants like figs.Are
0:57:45 > 0:57:49you surprised they are leaning, and, there are attempts to straighten
0:57:49 > 0:57:54them?As a result of that there are two things you need to consider when
0:57:54 > 0:57:57you are buying plants for a large space like this or a small one like
0:57:57 > 0:58:01a flat or home, and that is the plant and the space, and if the
0:58:01 > 0:58:07plants in this case a tropical one is inappropriate for a consieve
0:58:07 > 0:58:10triessentially it won't be growing in the appropriate conditions.But
0:58:10 > 0:58:13it is, surely a lovely thing to have in terms of the a working
0:58:13 > 0:58:17environment. Portcullis Houses is where all the politicians and the
0:58:17 > 0:58:21staff in Parliament gather, and all the services are there, they do add
0:58:21 > 0:58:28something to the, woring environment?Absolutely. I read John
0:58:28 > 0:58:33O'Connell said that politicians should be spend Mogger on necessity,
0:58:33 > 0:58:38plants plants will be very effective at removing pollutants from the air
0:58:38 > 0:58:42strike at reducing noise and creating a greater sense of calm.
0:58:42 > 0:58:47All of those things provide a working environment that helps MPs
0:58:47 > 0:58:52better serve their constituents.You can leave the plant here. Thank you
0:58:52 > 0:58:59very much. Andrew will be here tomorrow for live coverage of Prime
0:58:59 > 0:59:01Minister minister's questions. Bye.